Rossi: E-Cat X Can Produce Electricity and No Heat

Thanks to Artefact for posting this interesting Q&A from the Journal of Nuclear Physics today, which gives some interesting new information about what the E-Cat X is capable of.

“Amos February 28, 2016 at 5:51 AM
Dear Mr. Rossi,
Is the energy density & power density of the E-Cat X the same as the E-Cat? Also, is it possible for the E-Cat X to produce only electricity and no heat?
Thanks, Amos.

Andrea Rossi February 28, 2016 at 7:42 AM
Amos:
1-The Ecat X has a higher power density
2- Yes, but in this case the efficiency is lower.
Warm Regards
A.R.”

That the E-Cat can produce electricity and no heat is a revelation. Rossi has said in the past that the ratio of heat to electricity can be adjusted, and now it sounds like there is no limit to that ratio. It sounds like the E-Cat can be used as an electricity multiplier (if the input is electricity) but Rossi mentions that the efficiency is lower in this all-electricity mode, so that leaves a lot of questions out there, but it’s fascinating to think of how the E-Cat seems to have become much more than a heater now.

  • Bob Greenyer

    That is really interesting

  • etburg

    Fascinating. An unrelated question. I saw reference on another forum to Russian work on LENR work using electrical discharges in plasma, using water vapor I believe, and it made me think of the Papp engine which used discharges in noble gases (which ran cool) and Mills using discharges with water. Do people think all this is related and converging on certain common basic principles? Forgive my relative ignorance. Aware we still really don’t know what the heck’s going on here.

  • hunfgerh

    E- Cat or E – Cat X ?

    All just a question of the current density in the nanoscalled superconducting layer

    E- Cat :
    Current density > 10exp6 A / cm2 = e-capture = coldfusion = excess heat

    E- Cat X
    Current density < 10exp6 A / cm2 = no e -capture = no coldfusion = no excess heat ;
    Instead of strong magnetic field

  • If you keep temperatures to 650 degrees C, you can still use steel and use the waste heat to run a very high efficiency turbine.

    “Advanced gas-cooled reactor (AGR) These are the second generation of British gas-cooled reactors, using graphite moderator and carbon dioxide as primary coolant. The fuel is uranium oxide pellets, enriched to 2.5-3.5%, in stainless steel tubes. The carbon dioxide circulates through the core, reaching 650°C and then past steam generator tubes outside it, but still inside the concrete and steel pressure vessel (hence ‘integral’ design). Control rods penetrate the moderator and a secondary shutdown system involves injecting nitrogen to the coolant.”

  • Bob Greenyer

    Cleaver question, and the answer is almost the same as saying all of the heat in an E-Cat comes from X-Rays.

    You can convert X-Rays to electricity – and if you do it without thermalising them, then you get no excess heat. Replications have been good at achieving the latter.

    http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/acs.jpcc.5b07876?journalCode=jpccck

    “Charge Collection Efficiency, CCE, as a function of photon energy is about 75%.” From soft x-rays, below where we would have seen them in bang.

    The other option is alpha voltaic.

    • Rossi did make that reference to Madame Curie.

      • Bob Greenyer

        You are missing the obvious

        X is for X-Ray!

        • Madame Curie did extensive work developing the X-Ray. What did I miss?

    • Pekka Janhunen

      Soft X-rays get absorbed already in the powder. If reaction happens on nickel particle surface, 50% of soft X-rays are emitted into the nickel particle and are absorbed there. If reaction happens inside nickel particle, the situation is even worse. And if there is a thick layer of nickel particles (more than a monolayer), the situation is worse. It sounds like an uphill battle to get high efficiency conversion that way.

      • Bob Greenyer

        But temp feeds the reaction

        You are right though – Soft gets absorbed pretty easily at the low end.

        • Pekka Janhunen

          True, the penetration drops rapidly below 30 keV. For example a 10 keV X-ray attenuates by 62% if moving across just 10 micron layer of copper (a proxy for nickel).

          • Bob Greenyer

            yeh… but, if the XCat can be tuned to a frequency that would let more X out…

          • Pekka Janhunen

            Yes, if there is monoenergetic X-ray emission line somewhere below 30 keV, then conversion might work. Below 30 keV, but above 10 keV, I would say.

            0.4 mm of tungsten takes out 100% of 30 keV X. For 10 keV X, 0.08 mm is already enough.

          • Pekka Janhunen

            So we reached a new conclusion: The idea of thermalisation of X in Pb or W might work and it might-might explain E-cat X at the same time, if there is a discrete X-ray emission line somewhere in the range 10-30 keV. Continuation of the 1/E^2 continuum doesn’t work, but a discrete line might. It must be below 30 keV because otherwise it would have been seen in data, on the other hand it must be above approx.10 keV, otherwise absorption in the fuel becomes too severe. – A bit like Fred Hoyle predicting the carbon resonance… no, just kidding.

          • Pekka Janhunen

            Nickel full ionisation energy (kind of “maximum” characteristic X-ray energy) is 10.8 keV and its most prominent normal X-ray line is at 7.5 keV.

          • Bob Greenyer

            I have just spoken to bob – he is designing his experiment to ONLY look for X-Rays, and he is going that low.

          • Bob Greenyer

            I can 3D print in cobalt-chromium with walls as thin a 0.7mm fully sealed and good to at least 1397 which is higher than GS 5.2

            http://www.calphad.com/graphs/Co-Cr%20Phase%20Diagram.gif

            cobalt-chromium is not such a good x-ray shield.

          • Mats002

            mouse:
            1h Thermal > x/β- (0-100KeV) emissions thermalised in Lead > IR/THz (via blackbody)

            Cat:
            IR/THz > soft x resonance (7.5KeV) emissions > alpha emitter > I

          • Bob Greenyer

            Now ya thinking!

          • Mats002

            “Radioactive particles that slam into the gold push out a shower of high-energy electrons.”

            https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13545-nanomaterial-turns-radiation-directly-into-electricity

            The difference between Cat and CatX is that the former has a Tungsten layer for thermalization, the latter has Gold. Of course the gold will melt but that is handled by engineering.

            I guess that CatX ‘leaks’ soft x-rays through the Gold layer, and that is why the efficiency is lower.

          • Bob Greenyer

            Possible.

            As I said before – the rest is engineering

          • Eyedoc

            Why Gold ? Is there a special property I am not aware of?

          • Axil Axil

            Dear Bob,

            It is quite possible that your belief in radiation as the source of LENR excess heat is miss guided.

            You may be suffering from the old nuclear engineering meme that has so plagued LENR from its very beginning and has done so much to damage the general perception of LENR over the years.

            The old LENR hand, Piantelli has never expressed this theory of radiation causality involved in the generation of excess heat production and neither has Rossi.

            Radiation is something to be minimized if not completely eliminated.

            Your effort will be better spent in looking for muons coming out of a LENR reactor.

          • malkom700

            We have never assumed, but in my opinion, can not be excluded the possibility that the two technologies, E-Cat, and the E-Cat X compete with each other.

          • Bob Greenyer

            I am not sure why everyone is fixating on that AND wrongly – “The Cookbook is in the Signal” but it is not the main HEAT source, that comes from “+heat from non chemical other” as I clearly stated in my complete formula.

            Please look at the video where I extremely clearly hard coded this into the edit on the 22nd Feb recording.

            https://youtu.be/MtTeHU4vBmc?t=50m25s https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/256a81569fe223dd734e910e3c26605bb4457b90780d97215c81c626ca3a2df3.jpg

            Of course, this is science – so the understanding will make all these things clearer in time, I hope to do that in “The Symphony of the New Fire”

          • Bob Greenyer

            Wait

          • It’s possible I suppose that an intense, rapidly oscillating magnetic field driven by SPPs may be the only significant output of the ecat-x in normal operation. and that this can be harvested either as electricity as heat.

            In the case of electricity production, some components (flat steel wire coils?) would presumably need to be ‘tuned’ to convert the oscillating fields to AC or pulsed DC current by coherent induction, and the device would be thermally insulated to maintain operating temperature and negate any need for active cooling.,

            In the case of heat output, the device might be allowed to run considerably hotter, leading to increased power output and COP, with the field energy resolving as incoherent self induction (eddy currents in the steel plates -> heat, removed by coolant).

            As you say, it seems very probable that hard radiation is a weak by-product that Rossi may have learned to minimise.

          • Remember that Rossi has stated he is generating DC that can be converted to AC if needed: http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=892&cpage=34#comment-1143061

          • Missed that. It does rather seem to blow my theory out of the water then!

          • Allan Shura

            Considering 4 years behind the original tell schedule for the home e-cat I will wait and see for possibly an e-cat-y.

  • Jonnyb

    Great news

  • There is a company called EcoMotors International that Bill Gates has invested in, that has an opposed-piston opposed-cylinder (opoc®) internal combustion engine that can run on diesel, gasoline, or almost any synthetic liquid or gaseous fuel. They have a very well done video that with a few minor changes could also be used to explain the E-Cat revolution, which will hopefully begin soon. The OPOC engine is supposed to be at least 15% more efficient than current engines, much smaller and lighter, more reliable, and cheaper to build. So, cars could get 50MPG and more without hybrid technology. The video is fun to watch and very apt for Andrea Rossi’s device as well.

    http://ecomotors.com/video

    • Warthog

      Now that is COOL.

    • bachcole

      Ultra-cool. Some of that technology may be used with the E-cat, and some of that thinking will certainly be used with the E-cat.

  • PappyYokum

    When do we get to see it?

  • bachcole

    Perhaps as I suggest that poor man has lost his marbles. I hesitate to say such a thing, and I don’t fully embrace it. Perhaps there is a misunderstanding or miscommunication or mistranslation. If this is wrong, then I apologize profusely.

    • Apology accepted.

    • mwr1176

      I often can’t help but wonder if he’s just a very confused old man. If more electricity/lower heat means lower efficiency then how is the energy wasted? In the former of higher heat!! I’ve never heard anything more paradoxical.

      • Axil Axil

        My guess is that there are large numbers of mesons being produced and many of the meson, pions, and muons are escaping from the reactor before they decay into electrons.

        • LCD

          Fits a very simple exchange of words. I don’t think too much can be read into it.

          For example how can the efficiency be lower if it makes 100% electricity?

          • Philip James

            If the conversion of photons to KeV (photo-electric effect “solar” cells are not efficient at the energies proposed) is lower than the efficiency of the Carnot cycle heat (the heating of the lead) to produce work, then it’s easy to see how the efficiency of one is less than that of another.
            See Mats002 below.

  • Ophelia Rump

    No, it runs on fuel, you have to refuel once every ten months.

  • Correct me if I am wrong, but didn’t Rossi already win a legal battle with Piantelli when Piantelli tried to add nickel dust to his LENR patent? I believe the court sided with Rossi and said Piantelli could not alter his patent to steal Rossi’s idea.

  • Alan DeAngelis

    I’ve said this all before in ECW. I don’t know if this will
    help us understand what’s going on but to summarize:

    It seems to me that the x-rays are from bremsstrahlung (braking radiation)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bremsstrahlung
    from the delta-rays (the high energy electrons) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_ray
    that are knocked out of atoms from the 8.6 MeV alphas from this reaction.

    Li-7 + p > Be-8 > 1 He-4. 17.3 MeV.
    http://image.slidesharecdn.com/basicsofradiationandproductionofx-rays-140214075149-phpapp01/95/basics-of-radiation-and-production-of-x-rays-46-638.jpg?cb=1392364731

    • Bob Greenyer

      Yep

      • LCD

        There is no way a p gets into Li without a good explanation though right? So…

        • Bob Greenyer

          Explanations are coming

    • Alan DeAngelis

      Pardon me, two He
      Li-7 + p > Be-8 > 2 He-4. 17.3 MeV

    • Axil Axil

      Neither the pattern of radiation from the MFPM test nor the radiation pattern from the Defkalion paper conform to any type of radiation cased by electrons,

      • Alan DeAngelis

        I remember Rossi mentioned that there were 100 KeV
        electrons.

    • LCD

      The reaction, whatever it is, probably will not be that easy. In my estimation there is some slightly new phenomena, like a quasi particle that has not yet revealed itself. The radiation pattern is odd.

      Actually the widom and Larsen concept (in part) doesn’t seem as far fetched. But the starting energy is still an issue (maybe resonance explains it) and the low radiation levels are still wierd ( even with alphas only secondary radiation isn’t occurring at levels expected).

  • Bob Greenyer

    I made a 3D printable (in metal) reactor concept to help me talk through the first segment of “The Symphony of The New Fire” – designed for maximum X-Rays.

    When I have refined it a little (for weld position) I’ll post the STL – Copy Left Creative Commons license.

    It would need pre-processed fuel and skilled welding – ideally laser.

    The heater element is off the shelf.

    Designed for a K05-2230 element from here: http://goo.gl/5w8Xbt

  • Lux Terrea

    Somebody is going to turn this old balsa wood biplane into a state of the art fighter jet in due course.

    • bfast

      Yup. What Rossi has right now will be seen as a balsa wood biplane in a few decades. This thing is bigger than the internet, every bit as big as the industrial revolution.

      • Bob Greenyer

        It has the potential to make the wheel (transport) and fire redundant and allow us to colonise the stars and terraform worlds – what could be bigger than that?

        • MasterBlaster7

          A pill that would let me eat cheeseburgers all day and lose weight.

  • Andrew

    You might want to call the patent office and let them know they issued a patent on an unpatentiable.

  • MasterBlaster7

    I think I just heard a microphone hit the floor.

  • matteo

    So John, I’m guessing you got right down to work, and introduced your device in 1995, using that public knowledge? Or were you just waiting for someone else to use their own money and effort, so you could claim it, without having to do anything. If you are so sure of all this, then do something. Don’t just rattle an alarm and wait for someone else to do your bidding. DO something. Contribute. We can’t wait to see your product. I’ll sign up to be your first customer. We’ll drive coast to coast in the Johnmobile.

  • hunfgerh

    Only nuclear reactions (e.g. CF) have a COP > 1.
    All other conversions have a COP < 1.

    • fritz194

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficient_of_performance
      The traditional “COP” notation is used to specify the power ratio for heat pumps.
      This gives the ration between electric input and thermal heat/cooling performance.
      In this case the thermal ambient energy is meant to be “for free”.

      In this case there will be an unsused heat-byproduct which decimates the “COP” in terms of electrical in – to electrical out.

      • DrD

        COP has always been power out over power in. COP definition for LENR is no different to heat pump definition. Both electric and heat in and out must be included.

    • DrD

      Except heat pumps. They are old, off the shelf, technology and achieve 2, 3 or 4, all depends on the hot cold body temperature difference your demanding. Obviously they do not create energy from mass, they simply pump energy (heat). They’re also bulky but for heating only purposes you need to do better than this.

  • Pixelblot

    Excuse my ignorance but does this share any similarities to Focus Fusion’s efforts to create electricity directly by converting x-rays from plasma toroid discharges? I think it’s called aneutronic fusion and they use boron + hydrogen. Maybe the only similarity was the direct conversion of x-rays to electricity using a layered shell encapsulating the reaction or pulses. It looked very interesting and was small scale..well smaller than a tokamak for sure.

    • Bob Greenyer

      Boron + Hydrogen is “easier” – until this.

      7Li + 1H is higher yield aneutronic fusion

    • Axil Axil

      IMHO, LENR destabilizes protons and neutrons which produce sub-atomic particles(mesons) and all kinds of gainful nuclear reaction without neutrons.

  • georgehants

    Very interesting and in approx 17 days if Mr. Rossi (IH) come across with indisputable conformation of a basic E-cat breakthrough in line with all his announcements then these things will become important, for now they are just more Rossi says.
    If the advances are all True then imagine where Cold Fusion would be now, if first the scientific community where not completely corrupt and incompetent 30 years ago on the subject and secondly if Mr. Rossi had released the secret 5 years ago.
    It is sad to watch humanity in action and the number of people who just except the logically irrationality of the system.
    If people where to imagine running their own households in such a way, with the Father being happy that he can afford drugs, clean water, food etc. for himself and quite happy to justify that his children cannot and profits for the rich must come first, then a little sanity may prevail, but if the media tell people that’s how they should think then 95% would clearly obey and spend their lives justifying their actions on Websites etc.

    • f sedei

      Corruptness becomes so blatant and overwhelming that ordinary people feel helpless and give up. The condition does not seem to be getting any better.

      • The Rossi Says parade is now many blocks ahead of corroboration and confirmation.

        If the stuff he is saying is true, just… wow.

        This has happened before when Rossi was talking about have partnered with a significant US company and also about an independent test being underway. Both of these things eventually emerged as true, even if some of the details turned out to be less than hoped.

        Now we have MFMP on the verge of once and for all proving E-Cat flavored LENR is real and a pending F9 report on the 1 MW plant.

        Fingers crossed for a very, very, very positive March.

        • jimbo92107

          If they generate electricity, they could at least charge up a battery.

          • mwr1176

            Exactly. It just doesn’t seem like it should take decades to figure this out.

          • jimbo92107

            At the same time, Rossi’s type of LENR may not be friendly to being turned OFF after you turn it ON. Could be that it operates best in a continuously activated state. If that is so, then batteries become needed as part of that energy system.

  • Bob Greenyer

    By product of several aspects of the reaction.

    You are on the right line with heat dependence

    • Axil Axil

      The heat emmited by the E-Cat can be reduced if the temperature that the E-Cat operates at is increased

      Wien’s Law
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__x4IjPQnro

      If the E-cat can operate at very high temperatures, then visible light can drive the reaction instead of heat. The heat produced by the E-Cat can be minimized is the E-Cat can run at very high temperatures.

      Eliminating the production of heat as Holmlid has done by using a green light produced by a laser implies that his reaction runs at a temperature that equals that of the Sun.

      Rossi may have invented a plasma based system confined by a very high melting point material.

      • DrD

        Difficult to see how he can reach 100% Electric though. I think he denied that in a post a few weeks ago. Maybe it’s a simplification, meaning almost 100%.

  • OT: Andrés Ruzo (!) has discovered a huge source of heat energy: https://www.ted.com/talks/andres_ruzo_how_i_found_a_mythical_boiling_river_in_the_amazon

    • Gerrit

      He even talks about a giant snake (serpent) !

      • artefact

        History keeps on repeating itself!

  • Omega Z

    Regulations and years of testing.

  • Bob Greenyer

    Self preservation – and – cars have more accidents than domestic boilers.

    However, with sufficient electric power generation – it could be used by proxy.

  • JohnOman

    Our laptops will come with E-Cats sized/packaged such that they will not need to be refueled for the life of the laptop (when it’s recycled).

    • MasterBlaster7

      All of this without a solid theory of LENR. Just think of what might be possible if we ever figure out what is going on.

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        And the Power in the right or wrong hands.

  • JiW

    Nah, laptops are boring. I dream of laser weapons!

    “Given today’s technology, it is difficult to generate (and re-generate) enough electric power to engage and to destroy large targets, especially if they are heavily protected. Power generation is the first major technological obstacle that industry will have to solve if lasers are ever to become operationally effective weapons.”
    http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articles-view/feature/5/159975/2015-ushers-in-era-of-laser-weapons.html

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0DbgNju2wE

    • radvar

      Skylink = Robots with lasers backed by AI
      Brought to you by Out of Control Technology Inc.
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVlhMGQgDkY

      • jimbo92107

        I can hardly wait for a LENR powered robot to be stumbling through the woods for a year at a time…

    • Roland

      An airborne laser with a 12megawatt capacity and a 2,000 independently controlled mirror aiming device, to overcome atmospheric distortion, was successfully tested over 12 years ago.

      The platform was a 400ton cargo lift capacity aircraft purpose built by Boeing; the lift capacity being primarily dedicated to the binary chemical based energy system and reservoir tanks for the chemistry. The three full rotation crew lived aboard and the craft was refuelled on station so that it was operational on station for days at a time.

      The laser had an effective horizontal range of 200 miles and successfully ‘killed’ every missile that was targeted; a 100% kill ratio against both missiles and aircraft in multi engagement scenarios was expected till the chemistry ran out.

      That the US Navy is now touting 100,000W close defence lasers as a bleeding edge weapons system seems ludicrous in light of a fully operational system with 100 times that power that got shelved for political reasons cause the lavishly funded anti-missile missile faction won out.

      The strategic potential of the system would, for example, allow three platforms to completely illuminate any possibility of a North Korean missile launch without ever leaving international airspace.

      • Roland

        completely eliminate any…

        • LarryJ

          If you are logged in you can edit your original post

      • Warthog

        I think you will find that the Navy system is not a chemical laser. You can afford to use such a device on a plane, as you can dump the toxic chemical laser drive gas reaction products “overboard” and rapidly leave them behind. “Not so much” on a ship.

    • BillH

      Laser weapons may never be practical given that the mirror was invented first, hehe, just as well.

  • Private Citizen

    Piantelli did Euro-patent LENR in some form in 1995.

    If this stuff proves real there could be massive patent battles, unfortunately possibly delaying implementation.

    Your argument is interesting. Someone may try to use the public domain angle.

    • John

      My organization (europe) is working since 1994 on Piantelli disclosure of his invention. We are the ones that will put our products on the market (of course totally different design) BUT some of our products are NI-H2 based on the premisses of public domain given by Piantelli, we simply don’t care about Andrea Rossi, our products will enter direct competition with him at some point, we asked already European patent offices, the core of this technology is free, public domain, anyone can make anything based on 1994 Piantelli/Focardi disclosure, if Andrea Rossi tries to fight is just a matter of document presentation and to show them that Andrea Rossi, started his path on the back of the same setup and developed even further, BUT, he or IH or anyone else will be blocked on their intent of control the market. They know it already ! Worst, the same wires that heat the system to 400 degrees to start the reaction are the ones who collect electrical energy and this is also disclosed further in 1995 documents. FREE PUBLIC DOMAIN TECHNOLOGY ! Time will come when government and companies will fight, but this will not delay the implementation of technology, some governments will reclaim public domain of it at first… We are well aware of this

  • jimbo92107

    As I was attempting to read the Lundin/Lidgren report, I noted that they mentioned how spallation from neutron donors was greatly enhanced by combining thermal radiation with their secret sauce of vibrational energy. Maybe this implies that Rossi’s e-cat x eschews the heating element and just uses some kind of resonator to induce neutron spallation –> capture. That would explain Rossi’s comment that the smaller x unit wasn’t as efficient has the hot cat. I’m okay with a little less efficiency. Who wants a phone battery that burns through your pocket?