New Songsheng Jiang LENR Tests: Excess Heat for 7 days (Update — New Chinese Replication Announced)

Thanks to Barty for posting about new reports that have been published on a Chinese site by Songsheng Jiang, an LENR researcher who has previously published a report about generating excess heat from a nickel-hydrogen system.

UPDATE #2 (Mar 2, 2016): Thanks to Barty for reporting on the LENR Forum that Zhang Hansheng, of the China Institute of Atomic Energy (working under the direction of Songsheng Jiang) has achieved successful replication.

The link is here: https://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/news/index.php/News/112-Zhang-Hangcheng-reports-replication-of-Songsheng-experiment-done-in-January-2016/

Here’s an image from the original article in Chinese

songshengrep

UPDATE #1: An English translation of this paper has been publishe by Bob Higgins (thank you Bob!) is now available:

http://www.e-catworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/AnomalousHeat_Jiang_2015_English.pdf

AlainCo has posted links to the report on the LENR-Forum here: https://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/news/index.php/News/111-Pr-Songsheng-Jiang-publish-a-report-on-newer-experiments-done-in-December-2015/ and questions for Songsheng can be posted on that thread.

The original reports are found in Chinese here.

Below is the abstract in English, plus one image from the report with English annotations and explanations.

This paper reports a result of anomalous heat generation in hydrogen-loaded metals at temperature below 1300 °C. The heat was produced in the fuel sample (mixture of nickel powder and LiAlH4), which was filled a nickel cell, and then the cell was placed in a sealed stainless-steel chamber. The results of two runs are demonstrated. Excess heat lasted for seven days in the first run. The maximum excess heat power was produced more than 450 W. The excess heat was evaluated to be 78 MJ for the first 72 hours. In the second run, excess heat lasted for 120 minutes after external heating power turning off, and the maximum heat power was ~450 W. The self sustaining effect can be observed clearly when power off in the second run. The maximum heat energy from possible chemical reaction was estimated to be 26 kJ, a value much smaller than the excess heat. Therefore, excess heat could not originate from any chemical reactions and it might originate from some nuclear reactions.songsheng2016Fig. 2. Variations of T1, T2 temperature, power voltage and pressure in the chamber versus time in first run. Excess heat onset at T2 temperature of 1050 0C, and then T2 temperature increased rapidly to above 1300 0 C and exceeded T1 temperature more than 300 0C. Excess heat lasted seven days before T2 destroyed.

UPDATE: I just realized there is a second image for the test done in November:

songsheng20162

  • Ged

    That’s a very low (suspiciously so) self sustaining temperature.

    • artefact

      Maybe just a small part of the fuel continued the reaction. And that part was not near the temperature sensor.

      • Ged

        That is possible. It isn’t an impossibly low temperature, just that previous experience usually only sees signal from 500C up. As Bib pointed out, the temp here is still above the lithium melting point, and cooling may be different from the initial heating for how the reaction responds.

        But it still sets off red flags to me, for now, unless repeated.

    • Bob Greenyer

      Not is a vacuum it isn’t I have already in a long post said that the effect should be observable from 250ºC and conceivably to the melting point of Lithium… The most critical part is LiH

      • artefact

        Could you elaborate on the vacuum part?

      • Svein

        Melting point of Lithium is 180 degreed C? Could it be boiling point of Lithium, or melting pont of Ni?

        • Bob Greenyer

          It is getting Molten Lithium – in an H2 atmosphere – this forms Lithium Hydride – which is ionic – the H becomes H- which is critical to the process.

          • Svein

            OK LiH
            Properties

            Chemical formula

            LiH

            Molar mass
            7.95 g/mol

            Appearance
            colorless to gray solid[1]

            Density
            0.78 g/cm3[1]

            Melting point
            688.7 °C (1,271.7 °F; 961.9 K)[1]

            Boiling point
            decomposes at 900–1000 °C[2]So it could be up till melting pont of LiH or 688 °C

          • Bob Greenyer

            You want to melt the Li onto the Nickel first before adding the H2

          • Pekka Janhunen

            Where did you get this from? I thought that H2 starts to get released at much lower temp than Li separates from LiH and makes LiAl liquid.

          • Bob Greenyer

            It does – I am talking about if you have free Lithium – it is desirable to do this.

            Ok – I will keep the answers for the main Symphony Document – as things will get lost here

  • Ged

    That’s a very low (suspiciously so) self sustaining temperature.

    • artefact

      Maybe just a small part of the fuel continued the reaction. And that part was not near the temperature sensor.

      • Ged

        That is possible. It isn’t an impossibly low temperature, just that previous experience usually only sees signal from 500C up. As Bib pointed out, the temp here is still above the lithium melting point, and cooling may be different from the initial heating for how the reaction responds.

        But it still sets off red flags to me, for now, unless repeated.

    • Bob Greenyer

      Not is a vacuum it isn’t I have already in a long post said that the effect should be observable from 250ºC and conceivably to the melting point of Lithium… The most critical part is LiH

      • artefact

        Could you elaborate on the vacuum part?

      • Svein

        Melting point of Lithium is 180 degreed C? Could it be boiling point of Lithium, or melting pont of Ni?

        • Bob Greenyer

          It is getting Molten Lithium – in an H2 atmosphere – this forms Lithium Hydride – which is ionic – the H becomes H- which is critical to the process.

          • Svein

            OK LiH
            Properties

            Chemical formula

            LiH

            Molar mass
            7.95 g/mol

            Appearance
            colorless to gray solid[1]

            Density
            0.78 g/cm3[1]

            Melting point
            688.7 °C (1,271.7 °F; 961.9 K)[1]

            Boiling point
            decomposes at 900–1000 °C[2]So it could be up till melting pont of LiH or 688 °C

          • Bob Greenyer

            You want to melt the Li onto the Nickel first before adding the H2

          • Pekka Janhunen

            Where did you get this from? I thought that H2 starts to get released at much lower temp than Li separates from LiH and makes LiAl liquid.

          • Bob Greenyer

            It does – I am talking about if you have free Lithium – it is desirable to do this.

            Ok – I will keep the answers for the main Symphony Document – as things will get lost here

  • SG

    “the cell was placed in a sealed stainless-steel chamber”

    Parkhomov also would place his cell in a stainless-steel chamber. Has MFMP also done this in their experiments? Could the stainless-steel be absorbing, thermalizing, and/or reflecting infrared radiation? Could this be why Parkhomov and Songsheng Jiang have observed excess heat more readily than MFMP?

    • artefact

      They plan to place it into something at a next small test.
      After that, the next big test planned is the replication of cell 5.2 is in April but without a chamber (replication). Maybe at the end of the test.

      Bob Greenyer wrote on QH: “the next experiments will be so tooled up it will look like a NASA science exhibition.”

      • SG

        Next tests will be interesting. I think all are hot on the trail now.

        • Bob Greenyer

          Just got off the phone to Arik Boher – they are ready to go. They had missed several of the most Crucial steps – now they won’t – this’ll be all over by dinnertime …. or thereabouts.

          • Mats002

            Who is AB?

          • Bob Greenyer

            Head of Skinner

          • What do you mean by “all over by dinnertime”?

            SKINR is starting a replication attempt today and expect to have news?

          • Bob Greenyer

            hahah – no – it is a phrase meaning that the main job is nearly done – don’t take it too literally.

          • Thanks. I’m going to have start factoring in your flair for the dramatic from now on.

          • Bob Greenyer

            you should be in one of our meetings!

    • Axil Axil

      The reactor must be magnetically shielded to keep the Hydrogen Rydberg Matter(HRM) from escaping the reactor. If the stainless is magnetic, it will confine the HRM inside the reactor, if it is not magnetic, it will not confine the HRM, and it will be lost.

  • SG

    “the cell was placed in a sealed stainless-steel chamber”

    Parkhomov also would place his cell in a stainless-steel chamber. Has MFMP also done this in their experiments? Could the stainless-steel be absorbing, thermalizing, and/or reflecting infrared radiation? Could this be why Parkhomov and Songsheng Jiang have observed excess heat more readily than MFMP?

    • artefact

      They plan to place it into something at a next small test.
      After that, the next big test planned is the replication of cell 5.2 is in April but without a chamber (replication). Maybe at the end of the test.

      Bob Greenyer wrote on QH: “the next experiments will be so tooled up it will look like a NASA science exhibition.”

      • SG

        Next tests will be interesting. I think all are hot on the trail now.

        • Bob Greenyer

          Just got off the phone to Arik Boher – they are ready to go. They had missed several of the most Crucial steps – now they won’t – this’ll be all over by dinnertime …. or thereabouts.

          • Mats002

            Who is AB?

          • Helper

            He is group leader at U of Missouri Sidney Kimmel Institute LENR project.

          • Bob Greenyer

            Head of Skinner

          • What do you mean by “all over by dinnertime”?

            SKINR is starting a replication attempt today and expect to have news?

          • Bob Greenyer

            hahah – no – it is a phrase meaning that the main job is nearly done – don’t take it too literally.

          • Thanks. I’m going to have start factoring in your flair for the dramatic from now on.

          • Bob Greenyer

            you should be in one of our meetings!

    • Axil Axil

      The reactor must be magnetically shielded to keep the Hydrogen Rydberg Matter(HRM) from escaping the reactor. If the stainless is magnetic, it will confine the HRM inside the reactor, if it is not magnetic, it will not confine the HRM, and it will be lost.

  • Bob Matulis

    In light of what we have recently learned it would be beneficial to determine if gamma radiation is occurring along with the suspected excess heat.

    • Ophelia Rump

      Don’t panic.

      • Bob Greenyer

        See above – Only the use of W in the Lugano reactor made sense of the data on 16th Feb…

        Just see what “Webbie” dug up – WELL DONE WEBBIE

      • Bob Matulis

        Perhaps shielding prevents the radiation. Also, they are short bursts.

        • Bob Greenyer

          Absorbs it

        • Axil Axil

          The LENR reaction prevents the radiation.

  • Bob Greenyer

    A crowd researcher “Webbie” has spent the last 2 hours searching through Rossi’s Blog.

    Joe

    September 12th, 2012 at 4:14 AM

    Dr Rossi,

    1. Does the Hot Cat use Pb shielding?

    Andrea Rossi

    September 12th, 2012 at 4:25 AM

    Dear Joe:

    1- no, W shielding

    Bam… Just as was worked out from the Signal on the 16th – and clean roomed. It is impossible he was lying.

    • artefact

      I can’t remember that. Nice.

      • Bob Greenyer

        Yes… Nice…

    • Mats002

      W as in Tungsten I presume.

      • artefact

        (W)olfram = Tungsten

        • Mats002

          Has he answered if he use Au for getting alpha emotions in the Cat X?

          • artefact

            I can’t see that someone has asked it. That still has to be done 🙂

          • Mats002

            Ask for Emissions, not emotions ^^

          • artefact

            I could not resist…

          • artefact

            “artefact February 29, 2016 at 3:31 PM
            Dear Mr. Rossi,
            have you tried goldplating layers in your waver for getting alpha emotions in the Cat X?
            Thank you, artifact

            Andrea Rossi February 29, 2016 at 8:11 PM
            Artefact:
            No.
            Warm Regards, A.R.”

    • Jamie Sibley

      I am super thrilled that MFMP and Rossi have both confirmed that the reactors are shielded. This shows that A) The nuclear reaction is obviously aneutronic, and therefore relatively safe, and B) shielding implies radiation, and radiation is nuclear in origin. I really think you guys proved it with just one gamma spectrum.

    • ScienceFan

      It makes sense that you would use Tungsten for shielding in something like this. It would double as a material dense enough to prevent most loss of the Hydrogen gas given off from Lithium Aluminum Hydride decomposition, since Hydrogen has a nasty little tendency to leak under pressure.

      • Warthog

        “….has a nasty little tendency to leak under pressure.

        At elevated temperatures (which, of course, this is). At room temperature, not so much.

    • Ron Stringer

      Bob, thank you for all the work you are putting into explaining the new findings. Do you think you could possibly put your “symphony” info onto a fresh new posting on quantumheat? It is getting very awkward to dig down through all of the updates to look for new info. Also, since you are posting things on your own schedule, is there a way you could announce updates to the page?

    • Pekka Janhunen

      One has to remember, though, that tungsten is the natural choice for X-ray shielding material if lead is out of question for any reason such as temperature. It may have been that in 2012 the HotCat was still radiation shielded just in case, like the low temperature reactors before that, but that the shielding was later reduced.

      On the other hand, Rossi has said from the beginning the same that you are saying now: the energy is released internally as X-rays which are thermalised in the radiation shielding. The question is not if he said it (because he did, many times), but whether he was right about it or not.

      One reason I’m hesitating with this is that in your experiment you saw also MeV X-rays. Those quanta would need as much as 5mm of tungsten to be attenuated just into one half. There is no way the Lugano reactor contained anything close to 5mm of tungsten, so if Lugano reactor produced any 1 MeV quanta, they would have been detected by Bianchini. But none were seen. This is a contradiction, which of course can be resolved, for example by assuming that Rossi has found some control parameter that can be used to soften the internal X-ray spectrum (reducing the linewidth in the spectral line model that I described on quantumheat.org discussion). This explanation, by the way, would also be consistent with the fact that Rossi definitely reduced shielding over the years, from centimetres of lead down to thin Lugano reactor. (But another good explanation for the latter would be just that he was cautious in the beginning and he reduced shielding as it turned out that it was not needed.)

      • Bob Greenyer

        I will explain why MeV X-Rays were not seen in Lugano – and Axil is mostly there now – but there is a killer piece of experimental reporting that supports it.

        I never read he had said it before I deduced if from our Signal.

        It is still needed.

        • Obvious

          Please summarize the MeV X-ray part about the GS experiment data. I seemed to have missed it.

          • Obvious

            @bobgreenyer:disqus,
            Also if you are looking for tungsten wire, it used to be used as the resistance wire to the ignition coil from the Run side of the ignition switch in old breaker points-type automobiles, like pre-74 Chevys. Many of these cars have been updated to newer ignition systems, but the wire is often still under the hood. It is cloth-covered and almost unsolderable, so it can be recognized easily.
            (The W wire was used instead of a ceramic insulated ballast resistor, as seen in many early Ford and Chrysler ignition systems).

          • Bob Greenyer

            Signal #7

          • Obvious

            Um, could you be slightly more specific? I see the low keV spike.
            Pretty clear, that is.

            I don’t see much in the way of any specific MeV, except the K40 decay bump circa 1.46 MeV (which is in all traces).

          • Brent Buckner

            I interpret Bob Greenyer as stating that explanation is yet to come, and will be Update #7 on “The Cookbook is in the signal” at http://www.quantumheat.org/index.php/en/home/mfmp-blog/519-the-cookbook-is-in-the-signal

          • Mike Henderson

            Or perhaps Signal #7 is the spectrum from Trace #7?

            Edit: Bob G posted this on another comment board: “Later today – I will make design a reactor people can make in their garage.” It appears you are correct.

          • Bob Greenyer
          • Obvious

            That’s your symphony report.

          • Bob Greenyer
          • Obvious

            I had a look at that. I didn’t see how the level of posited Mev gamma that would be required was determined.

            I seems to me that the rule of thumb is that the source peak energy is about 4 times the average energy of the resulting Bremsstrahlung.

            In Figure 6, the K40 peak is still visible, so there is still a strong background component. (Note also that the background K40 bump (1461 keV) makes it through to the detector easily, through the window in the Pb, or probably right through the Pb; such energies will not be blocked by the reactor.)
            In some versions the K40 peak seems to be almost removed. Whenever it is still there, the background has in fact not been thoroughly removed. The K40 peak also wanders. This seems to have been fixed up by peak correction in some images (good).

            Anyways, continuing: the average energy of the Bremsstrahlung is quite low, so four times that would also be low, and much less than 1 MeV would be my guess. But really cleansing out the background will be critical in setting the limits on the average energy of the Bremsstrahlung. I am looking through your spectral data now.

          • Obvious

            So, a test, using 24 as a background, and removing it three times from 7 so that the K40 peak was totally wiped out, I got this signal. It is not a very scientific background removal, but the remaining is certainly anomalous.
            THIS is your signal. (image below)

            (Using 24 as a BG to 8, removing it twice, the 1311 keV remains of the K40 to Ca40 beta decay can be seen as a small cluster.)

      • fact police

        Even 100 keV X-rays, enough to produce 1 kW of thermal power, require 4 mm tungsten to attenuate the rate to 1000 cts/s, still easily detectable.

        300 keV would require 5 cm

        500 keV would require 11 cm

        1 MeV would require 23 cm

        • Pekka Janhunen

          Yes, if kilowatts of power come as X-rays, their energy must be significantly less than 100 keV. Which is consistent with what MFMP saw.

          • fact police

            You mean with what they were unable to see…

            The point is, what they did see is not consistent with what Bianchini did not see.

          • Pekka Janhunen

            I should have said “not inconsistent”.

            In any case, one must wait until MFMP repeats the experiment with at least one additional independent detector. Until then there can be legitimate doubts of measurement error.

          • Bob Matulis

            I agree that a successful replication is critical and would be a defining moment.
            The recent success has proved to MFMP that the Rossi effect is real. Those directly involved have seen first hand very compelling evidence that the claims are true.
            A successful replication will ultimately lead to the world seeing that the claims are true. 1) It will erase all remaining doubt for MFMP and those (like myself) that follow its work and 2) it will set the stage for independent replications.
            I dream of a day where LENR demonstrations are standard college entry level Chemistry/physics courses. Right now I “believe” something real is happening. MFMP “knows” something is happening. The end game is for the science community at large “knowing” it is real and that can only happen with replication.

    • Adam Lepczak

      im tempted to see what would happen if a mixture of a powdered nickel plated rare earth magnet is incorporated into the fuel…I understand the “curie point” so I’m not counting on lots of magnetism left after applying the high temp – but perhaps such an object will be useful in triggering the reaction?
      1. Take the nickel plated rare earth magnet (like neodymium)
      2. Blend it into a powder
      3. Add some lithium/lithium hydrate
      4. Start hearing up

    • It just came to my mind what Rossi told me about the idea for the Hotcat in April 2012, referred to at the end of chapter 17 in my book ‘An Impossible Invention’ – was it just the choice of an alternative to lead he needed?

      “Rossi told me later that he had benefited from the trip in a different way. Much as his jail time in Milan had let him ponder undisturbed for over a year the problem of cold fusion, during the return trip from Uppsala he had time to consider another problem that he had wrestled with for a long time. He hadn’t managed to raise the reactor temperature higher than bringing the wall up to about 150 degrees Celsius. It was good enough for heating but to generate electricity you would need to power a turbine, requiring steam at about 500 degrees, preferably hotter. But as soon as Rossi tried to drive the reaction to raise the temperature further, sudden power spikes produced high heat but were hard to control—the same phenomenon that had made the reactors explode several times during Rossi’s early experimentation.

      Now he wanted to make a new attempt to escape the dilemma. He had 24 hours with nothing to do. Carlo drove and Rossi took pen and paper and sat down to think about the problem. The hours passed and the spruce tops in the monotonous landscape rushed past the window. Now and then a clearing or a lake appeared. Suddenly he had the solution. ”You know, it came to me in the classical way, when you wonder why you didn’t think of that before,” Rossi would tell me later.

      Carlo continued to drive. Outside the car window the gentle waters of Lake Vättern stretched out beside the road. Rossi had his idea. Steven Johnson, author of the book Where Good Ideas Come From, would have called it a slow hunch—something that festers for a long time in the subconscious and ultimately materializes, suddenly, as a clear and concise thought.”
      – – – –
      An Impossible Invention, chapter 17.

  • AdrianAshfield

    Bob Greenyer,
    I remember Rossi saying in the the very early days he had replaced an internal Tungsten wire heater with something else – and it didn’t “work as well.”
    At the time I speculated it could be the Tungsten disassociating H2, but now it looks like something else. Perhaps that was when Rossi discovered something.

  • AdrianAshfield

    Bob Greenyer,
    I remember Rossi saying in the the very early days he had replaced an internal(?) Tungsten wire heater with something else – and it didn’t “work as well.”
    At the time I speculated it could be the Tungsten disassociating H2, but now it looks like something else. Perhaps that was when Rossi discovered something.

  • MaryYugo just received and published the DOE Leonardo thermoelectic element report he requested a few months ago

    https://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/index.php/Thread/2291-FOIA-Request-of-the-Munson-report-about-Rossi-s-thermoelectric-claims/?postID=14560#post14560

  • MaryYugo just received and published the DOE Leonardo thermoelectric generator report he requested a few months ago based on the FOIA:

    https://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/index.php/Thread/2291-FOIA-Request-of-the-Munson-report-about-Rossi-s-thermoelectric-claims/?postID=14560#post14560

  • Obvious

    TC over heated again. Excess only after TC gets overheated.
    I hope he can get the posited reaction heat below the failure point of the TC next time. Or a more suitable TC.

    • Obvious

      The second graph is weird, with the TC dropping out before the big event. That happened last report, also.
      I guess he is replicating himself…

  • Obvious

    TC over heated again. Excess only after TC gets overheated.
    I hope he can get the posited reaction heat below the failure point of the TC next time. Or a more suitable TC.

    • Obvious

      The second graph is weird, with the TC dropping out before the big event. That happened last report, also.
      I guess he is replicating himself…

      Edit: The first image is the first report data (May 2015), but compressed to one image.

      The second one is new (Nov 2015), but gets clipped at 1300°C. It says >1372°C on the drawing, where it gets clipped.
      The first (May) report and images supplied later also did the clipping at alternating 1300 and 1372°C
      Hard to tell if it is a scaling thing or something else.

    • Hank Mills

      The report claims that K type thermocouples will under report temperature if damaged, not give too high of a temperature. If anything, the temperature probably was even higher than the thermocouple measured.

      • Obvious

        The melting point of a Type K TC is about 1400°C (only 30°C over the cut-off)
        After that, all bets are off.

      • psi2u2

        Very interesting finding.

  • ScienceFan

    My current theory is that in addition to all the necessary pre-treatment of the Nickel, you need an iron-bearing enclosure for the Nickel / LiAlH4 for the ferromagnetic properties inside a Tungsten capsule for retaining the pressure of the Hydrogen from preventing loss and absorb any radiation, and then have an AC heating coil to work synergistically with with the iron to help induce the reaction.

    To make sure the seams of a screw-top capsule are sealed and to cover the AC heating unit, you can use something like the dogbone-style alumina coatings, but it would be better to find a coating with improved heat tolerance since we’ve seen numerous failures of the alumina in other tests. This might also allow the Tungsten capsules (probably the most expensive part) to potentially be reusable after the efficiency drops too low.

    My two cents.

  • Obvious

    The melting point of a Type K TC is about 1400°C
    After that, all bets are off.

  • Owen Geiger

    At some point these tests are going to be convincing and substantial enough that the Chinese government will throw billions into LENR research. Same if Rossi puts product on the market.

    • SG

      My guess is that it already has begun, quietly, no fanfare. Perhaps not billions–yet, but soon. The U.S. DOE better get their act together, and quick. Perhaps do not base decisions on the opinions of hot fusion scientists (as they have in the past) with conflicts of interest the size of Everest.

    • bfast

      My biggest concern is that American special interests will hold this technology up here sighting safety concerns. As always their real motivation will be to cover their ass-ets. This could cause a fundamental shift in the world economic structure. More simply, the quicker a nation gets onto this technology, the better they will fare 50 years from now.

      • towerofbabel

        This is global and there are many competing interests. So it will be hard to put the genie back in the bottle.

      • psi2u2

        Hi Bfast,

        Your concern has been anticipated by Cherokee/IH, which already has in place agreements for manufacture and marketing in China. Tom Darden knows what he is doing as far as I can tell. If LENR is held up by regulatory shenanigans in the US, it won’t be stopped in China.

    • Winebuff67

      Look what happened to Eugene mallove he go murdered once he came out about the cover up of cold fusion. 5000 other patents mostly energy game changers lost to gov. Cover up and mysterious happenings to inventors.

      • Winebuff67

        Is Rossi next? Am I a conspiracy theorist…..?

        • I think so Winebuff . Mallove’s murder wasn’t CF related. Mallove’s family rented some property. It was a tenant who was getting evicted who killed him.

          • psi2u2

            That was my impression also from what I read — that his death had nothing to do with his advocacy of LENR.

          • Jarea

            good ironic mode! 😀

        • psi2u2

          This question was discussed some time in the past and most commentators here I think decided that Rossi is probably being protected at some level as a national security asset and therefore is perhaps safer than we might otherwise think. I guess this is a kind of “conspiracy” thinking — just a little more positive view of “conspiracy.” There are plenty of people, some of them in positions of real influence and power, who want to support Rossi, not stop him.

          • Ted-X

            The “protectors” might have two objectives: 1) to avoid a societal collapse after the oil runs out and 2) make the country more resistant to an event such as the hypothetical “pole shift” or an asteroid impact. Besides, compared to all suppressed energy technologies (Papp, TPU, magnet motors), the ECAT is the easiest one to “put a meter on”.

          • psi2u2

            Yes, TED-x and there are other reasons as well. Much of the power establishment in the US and elsewhere believes in the dangers of global warming. Personally I think this problem is being overhyped, but even if that is so, the issue is still pushing leaders to “think outside the box” and search more aggressively for alternatives to fossil fuels.

            So, from my point of view, these leaders are doing the right thing for reasons that are different from those that cause me to be an aggressive supporter of new energy tech. According to statistics I have seen, the energy sector spends the least amount of capital investment on new technologies of any tech sector. This needs to change, and people like Rossi, MFMP, and all the other courageous researchers in LENR are, I think, helping to bring that about.

            Also, believe it or not, I think that some US leaders (Obama, for one) actually see how a technology like the e-cat can make the world a better place by lightening the huge expense of energy on all of us, especially poor people or businesses requiring energy inputs to function.

            Think of the billions or trillions of dollars which might be saved in people’s pockets if you, for example, could cut heating and electric costs down to, say, 20% of what they are today. In my case that would mean saving $120 a month on utilities that could go to retirement savings, consumer spending, paying off my student loans, etc. (after, of course, the payback period for the tech – which in Rossi’s case we have reason to hope will be way below the cost of a new oil burning furnace).

        • bachcole

          yes.

        • theBuckWheat

          It is too late to stop this. With a third party replication, the cat is out of the bag, so to speak.

  • psi2u2

    Very interesting finding.

  • Pekka Janhunen

    Yes, if kilowatts of power come as X-rays, their energy must be significantly less than 100 keV. Which is consistent with what MFMP saw.

  • bachcole

    Looks good to me.

  • Pekka Janhunen

    I should have said “not inconsistent”.

    In any case, one must wait until MFMP repeats the experiment with at least one additional independent detector. Until then there can be legitimate doubts of measurement error.

    • Bob Matulis

      I agree that a successful replication is critical and would be a defining moment.
      The recent success has proved to MFMP that the Rossi effect is real. Those directly involved have seen first hand very compelling evidence that the claims are true.
      A successful replication will ultimately lead to the world seeing that the claims are true. 1) It will erase all remaining doubt for MFMP and those (like myself) that follow its work and 2) it will set the stage for independent replications.
      I dream of a day where LENR demonstrations are standard college entry level Chemistry/physics courses. Right now I “believe” something real is happening. MFMP “knows” something is happening. The end game is for the science community at large “knowing” it is real and that can only happen with replication.

  • Gerrit

    I do not understand Fig 3. How can T1 keep dropping after power off, while T2 is supposed constant at 1300°C. To me it seems that T2 was no longer reliable.

    In Fig 2, the correlation between T1 and T2 makes more sense to me.

    • LCD

      That’s the upper limit, not constant.

  • Gerrit

    I do not understand Fig 3. How can T1 keep dropping after power off, while T2 is supposed constant at 1300°C. To me it seems that T2 was no longer reliable.

    In Fig 2, the correlation between T1 and T2 makes more sense to me.

    • LCD

      That’s the upper limit, not constant.

  • Bob Greenyer

    Implications of Signal 2, Seeing into the SunCell with X-Ray Eyes…

    Ag + H2O + Current > UV/EUV/X-Rays down converted by Ag > Current

    MFMP video walkthrough coming

  • Bob Greenyer

    Implications of Signal 2, Seeing into the SunCell with X-Ray Eyes…

    Ag + H2O + Current > UV/EUV/X-Rays down converted by Ag > Current

    MFMP video walkthrough coming

  • bachcole

    Pekka Janhunen, how certain are you that Songsheng Jiang’s graphic shows LENR over-unity?

    • Pekka Janhunen

      I haven’t looked at it in detail myself, but I have read on Vortex Jed Rothwell’s analysis and he was rather critical. It could be real, but it can also be a measurement error caused by overheated thermocouple.

  • Pekka Janhunen

    I haven’t looked at it in detail myself, but I have read on Vortex Jed Rothwell’s analysis and he was rather critical. It could be real, but it can also be a measurement error caused by overheated thermocouple.

  • Warthog

    “….has a nasty little tendency to leak under pressure.

    At elevated temperatures (which, of course, this is). At room temperature, not so much.

  • Jamie Sibley

    I am very suspect of the thermocouple response in these graphs. I had many similar results with my experiments, and every time it turns out that heater current was leaking through insulating materials that become conductive at high temperatures. Often, a few millivolts would leak over to the thermocouple wire and cause errors of near 500 degrees from my expected readings. The noise on T2 is a sure sign that there is a electrical leakage issue.

    • LCD

      Good point but would you not expect the T2 curve to be proportional then. And how would low temp excess heat be explained.

      Maybe a faulty thermocouple could be a complementary explanation.

    • psi2u2

      Wow. Good point. Let’s hope that is not the explanation for most of these replications. Thank you for reporting your contrary findings.

    • Obvious

      Additional potential TC problems, regarding open circuit TCs.

      http://www.ni.com/white-paper/12334/en/

      For example, if the thermocouple is electrically in contact with a
      surface that is electrically related to (not isolated from) the volt
      meter ground, then if the thermocouple breaks and opens up, one end of
      the thermocouple will be floating (and weakly tied to volt meter ground)
      while the other end will be tied to the voltage of the surface that the
      thermocouple is touching. This means that instead of measuring the
      thermocouple we are now measuring the common mode voltage difference
      between the surface the TC was measuring and the ground of the volt
      meter.

      etc.
      For a common mode ground fault, the delta V need only be 54.886 mV to read 1372°C

      Note that the welded junction of a thermocouple wire is the weak point.
      And the diameter of the TC wire is almost as important as the melting point of the alloys used in the TC, when it comes to very high temperatures.

  • http://WWW.LOOKINGFORHEAT.COM (Alan Smith et al.) is now live.

    Roll up! Roll up! Get your cold fusion kits ‘ere – no need to wait for Songsheng Jiang to do it for you!

    • Pekka Janhunen

      Lol, I pressed “Chemicals” and got PayPal for WooCommerce requires WooCommerce version 2.1 or higher…. Must confess that I never heard of WooCommerce s/w. Looks a bit beta, but first day is always first day.

      • Yes, it’s usually the day you find out that the site that displays and works perfectly on your PC looks like a 12-year-old’s efforts and has 50% functionality at best, on anyone else’s machine.

        WooCommerce is a free WordPress ‘shop’ theme. It’s been going for a while but is still quite ‘buggy’.

        • Alan – It’s at ver. 2.5.3 now – you need to update!

          • Pekka Janhunen

            It works for me also, now. It seems he’s actively editing the site.

  • Looking For Heat (Alan Smith et al.) is now live.

    Roll up! Roll up! Get your cold fusion kits ‘ere – no need to wait for MFMP or Songsheng Jiang to do it for you!

    LONDON, UK. We are launching http://www.lookingforheat.com (LFH) the first web-shop designed to meet the needs of hundreds of dedicated small-scale experimenters.

    • Pekka Janhunen

      Lol, I pressed “Chemicals” and got PayPal for WooCommerce requires WooCommerce version 2.1 or higher…. Must confess that I never heard of WooCommerce s/w. Looks a bit beta, but first day is always first day.

      • Yes, it’s usually the day you find out that the site that displays and works perfectly on your PC looks like a 12-year-old’s efforts and has 50% functionality at best on anyone else’s machine.

        WooCommerce is a free WordPress ‘shop’ theme. It’s been going for a while but can still be a bit ‘buggy’.

        • Alan – It’s at ver. 2.5.3 now – you need to update!

          Edit: Actually, the ‘Chemicals’ link worked OK for me, so there might be a browser/OS issue.

          • Pekka Janhunen

            It works for me also, now. It seems he’s actively editing the site.

  • Hhiram

    Encouraging to see another team claiming replication. And this research institute in China seems quite respectable.

    Unfortunately, without fluid calorimetry the results are still subject to the usual doubts about the accuracy of their instrumentation. Thermocouples, infrared cameras, etc. are just not the right ways to produce conclusive and incontrovertible heat measurements.

    Hopefully China will be more supportive of this research going forward, and produce a replication with more compelling heat measurement data fairly quickly.

    Fingers crossed.

    • Guests

      Nah , once convinced, will do massively or talk to IH and Rossy.
      Its a matter of live or death

  • Gerard McEk

    It would be nice if the Songshen Jiang et.al. would install more than one thermocouple and of higher temperature range at the T2 location. That would make their test more convincing. Nevertheless, it looks promissing, I hope they continue.

  • Gerard McEk

    It would be nice if the Songshen Jiang et.al. would install more than one thermocouple and of higher temperature range at the T2 location. That would make their test more convincing. Nevertheless, it looks promissing, I hope they continue.

    • Frederic Maillard

      Gerard,
      Do we really need convincing TC measurements when Songshen Jiang managed to get 120 minutes of SSM ?
      Don’t you think SSM means LENR (whatever you call it) with infinite COP ?
      🙂
      FM

      • Obvious

        Convincing SSM here would need to explain how the outside of the reaction chamber is over 1372 °C [1300?] (T1), for much of two hours, without heating the cylinder (T2), and yet the cylinder (T2), surrounded by or “under” heating coils, can heat the reaction chamber (T1) no problem.
        T2 very closely follows T1, until T2 drops a bunch (just after T1 goes off scale).
        After that, the TCs are totally decoupled.
        (November test).

        It looks like that, even if the reaction chamber does get hot by a reaction, you can’t get any heat out of it.

        And it all starts just after the T1 gets clipped at 1300°C/1372°C

        • LCD

          This continues to be a question we all ask, even for Rossi. Possibly MFMPs hypothesis is correct.

          • Obvious

            Rossi’s SSM actually (apparently) heats the device and delivers power. This one does not.
            Heat is power, or energy. Heat can do work.
            Temperature is not the same as power.
            (The videos that follow this one are well worth watching, perhaps more so. You might learn how to build an OCube in Lesson 18).

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsJFdOJMXrM

        • most difficult to understand is the real but modest heating of T4, compared to T1…

          Experts are afraid T1 is incoherent because of hot H2.

          considering T2 and T4, there Jed sees just a tiny phase where temperature decay is slowed.
          It could be chemical only.

      • Gerard McEk

        The problem is that the TC’s can get broken at high temps. After that they may show any value that does not reflect the real temperature. The runaway situations (T2 going in excess of 1300 C) are prommissing and may indicate LENR, but the self sustaining period (fig. 2) may be a wrong indictation of T2. The increased T4 in fig. 3 is interesting too. However, I would never quantify the excess heat, having it based on indications of T2, which was overloaded, unless you could prove afterwards that the TC was still in good shape.

  • Obvious

    Convincing SSM here would need to explain how the outside of the reaction chamber is over 1372 °C [1300?] (T1), for much of two hours, without heating the cylinder (T2), and yet the cylinder (T2), surrounded by or “under” heating coils) can heat the reaction chamber (T1).
    T2 closely follows T1 until T1 drops a bunch.
    After that, the TCs are totally decoupled.
    (November test).

    It looks like that even if the reaction chamber does get hot by a reaction, you can’t get any heat out of it.

    And it all starts just after the T1 gets clipped at 1300°C/1372°C

    • LCD

      This continues to be a question we all ask, even for Rossi. Possibly MFMPs hypothesis is correct.

      • Obvious

        Rossi’s SSM actually (apparently) heats the device and delivers power. This one does not.
        Heat is power, or energy. Heat can do work.
        Temperature is not the same as power.
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsJFdOJMXrM

    • most difficult to understand is the real but modest heating of T4, compared to T1…

      Experts are afraid T1 is incoherent because of hot H2.

      considering T2 and T4, there Jed sees just a tiny phase where temperature decay is slowed.
      It could be chemical only.

  • LCD

    Good point but would you not expect the T2 curve to be proportional then. And how would low temp excess heat be explained.

    Maybe a faulty thermocouple could be a complementary explanation.

  • LCD

    He might have excess heat once but because the thermocouple hits the upper limit, the rest of the data may corrupted including any SSM.

    Run it again with a higher temp thermocouple or corroborate T2 data with something else

    • LCD

      That’s fig 2 but fig 3 makes a stronger case for SSM

  • LCD

    He might have excess heat once but because the thermocouple hits the upper limit, the rest of the data may corrupted including any SSM.

    Run it again with a higher temp thermocouple or corroborate T2 data with something else

    • LCD

      That’s fig 2 but fig 3 makes a stronger case for SSM

  • Gerard McEk

    The problem is that the TC’s can get broken at high temps. After that they may show any value that does not reflect the real temperature. The runaway situations (T2 going in excess of 1300 C) are prommissing and may indicate LENR, but the self sustaining period (fig. 2) may be a wrong indictation of T2. The increased T4 in fig. 3 is interesting too. However, I would never quantify the excess heat, having it based on indications of T2, which was overloaded, unless you could prove afterwards that the TC was still in good shape.

  • psi2u2

    Wow. Good point. Let’s hope that is not the explanation for most of these replications. Thank you for reporting your contrary findings.

  • Antonio LaGatta and John T Vaughn (Industrial Heat) have incorporated HMRI R&D Inc in North Carolina:

    https://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/index.php/Thread/2838-Antonio-LaGatta-and-John-T-Vaughn-have-incorporated-HMRI-R-D-Inc-in-North-Caroli/

  • Antonio LaGatta and John T Vaughn (Industrial Heat) have incorporated HMRI R&D Inc in North Carolina:

    https://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/index.php/Thread/2838-Antonio-LaGatta-and-John-T-Vaughn-have-incorporated-HMRI-R-D-Inc-in-North-Caroli/

  • Obvious

    Additional potential TC problems, regarding open circuit TCs.

    http://www.ni.com/white-paper/12334/en/

    “For example, if the thermocouple is electrically in contact with a
    surface that is electrically related to (not isolated from) the volt
    meter ground, then if the thermocouple breaks and opens up, one end of
    the thermocouple will be floating (and weakly tied to volt meter ground)
    while the other end will be tied to the voltage of the surface that the
    thermocouple is touching. This means that instead of measuring the
    thermocouple we are now measuring the common mode voltage difference
    between the surface the TC was measuring and the ground of the volt
    meter.”
    etc.

  • jimbo92107

    Are researchers limiting the output heat of their LENR experiments because the thermocouples keep melting? If so, why don’t they use thermocouples that operate at a higher range of temperatures?

    http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/0-3mm-operating-in-1500C-furnace_2022990334.html?spm=a2700.7724857.29.55.fSpWKd

    Here’s one that operates up to 1500C.

  • jimbo92107

    Are researchers limiting the output heat of their LENR experiments because the thermocouples keep melting? If so, why don’t they use thermocouples that operate at a higher range of temperatures?

    http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/0-3mm-operating-in-1500C-furnace_2022990334.html?spm=a2700.7724857.29.55.fSpWKd

    Here’s one that operates up to 1500C.

  • bachcole

    Let the LENR Juggernaut named “The Good Times” roll!

    I see the hand of Intelligent Design behind all of this. (:->)

  • bachcole

    Let the LENR Juggernaut named “The Good Times” roll!

    I see the hand of Intelligent Design behind all of this. (:->)

    And these folks are doing test runs designed before the MFMP recipe came out. Just wait for the next few of months. One thousand flowers will blossom in the Spring and Summer.

    • tchernik

      I agree. And that’s probably the reason why it’s such a hard pill to swallow for our modern rationalist mindset.

      We can accept an indifferent meaningless universe, where we were born by mere chance and where we don’t have access to any existential privileges beyond those that can be provided by our minds and hands.

      We can accept there is no help out there, that we need to be restricted by the ever depleting resources we rely on, and that we will unavoidably end up badly when things run out.

      But an open-ended world, where such limitations don’t apply anymore, where we all can have abundance coming from the way the universe works, almost as if it was a gift fallen from the heavens, is one that we simply feel terrified to face. Because it can tell us that we are wrong in our most cherished worldview assumptions.

      Of course, LENR isn’t really a miracle, but something that ought to be inherent to the way physics and the world really work, and that we just became aware of it by the defiance of a few that refused to bow to authority and tradition, doing impossible experiments and sharing them with other eccentrics, until the truth came out. That is, just the result of the scientific method and inquisitive minds trailing the path of knowledge.

      But somehow, the accumulation of “jackpots” and treasures we are finding along the way suggest that maybe someone put them there.

      • Obvious

        I have a friend that would reply that Satan put it all there, from dinosaur bones to isotope evidence, in order to throw everyone off of the track to God…

        • bachcole

          “Satan” is code for egotism.

          • Obvious

            The opposite of love is control.

          • bachcole

            {I’m still having fun.} The opposite of love is being buried under a pile of mental impressions all screaming “I, me, my, mine”. (:->)

          • Obvious

            But my friend’s meaning, I assure you, is quite literal.
            There’s no discussing almost anything with him.
            The contradictions of daily life with his philosophy are not contradictions at all to him. Whether Satan invented it, or Someone Else, they still work if they work, he believes. They just are in the way of The Way.
            Anyways, we digress…

          • bachcole

            I am surprised that Frank allowed us to digress this far into this sort of territory. (:->)

      • bachcole

        “help out there” I was thinking “help in there”. The Infinite is both within and without.

        Oh, given the impossibility of discerning any certainty at the quantum level, how do we know that the subatomic world is as it has always been? Miracles could happen at that level and we would have no way of knowing it.

      • jimbo92107

        Just because we’re finding out that the box we live in is larger than we thought, that doesn’t mean we don’t live in a box. Nobody in the scientific community argued that the universe isn’t flooded with energy.

        What they couldn’t understand was that subatomic particles could be swapped so easily by simply jamming hydrogen into the chicken wire of a metallic lattice, then buzz the whole mess with heat, sound, light or electricity.

        The “3 miracles” of cold fusion turned out to be nothing that nature was not ready to permit, once we learned to play the game. I look forward to more visualizations of how this process happens, including how Rossi’s ecatx makes electricity from these reactions. LENR porn!

  • Obvious

    I have a friend that would reply that Satan put it all there, from dinosaur bones to isotope evidence, in order to throw everyone off of the track to God…

  • Obvious

    The opposite of love is control.

  • Obvious

    But my friend’s meaning, I assure you, is quite literal.
    There’s no discussing almost anything with him.
    The contradictions of daily life with his philosophy are not contradictions at all to him. Whether Satan invented it, or Someone Else, they still work if they work, he believes. They just are in the way of The Way.
    Anyways, we digress…

  • georgehants

    Wonderful to see the Chinese moving forward, hopefully we will soon see Cold Fusion in the pound shops when they rightly ignore all patents and the West is still building Nuclear power stations etc.
    Time for an official report from our university’s and premiere science comics showing that Cold Fusion is still impossible.

    • Alberonn

      Right again : no more BS : nothing really matters till I can put my first LENR-device in an Ali Express shopping-cart : WAUW…

  • Redford

    Is any of this peer reviewed ? We have plenty of replications now, what we need are peer reviewed ones.

    • The “peer review” is ongoing and right here! There are more than a few competent peers engaged in the oongoing OPEN discussion of the work. Alas even some of the blowhard trolls occasionally make themselves useful. Having participated in many closed ‘peer reviews’ for the profit mongering journals of ‘science’ I can tell you this process is far more valid!

      • bachcole

        I couldn’t agree more. I have learned to depend upon this group and in particular several people here to reduce my reading and analysing load. Pekka Janhunen in particular comes to mind. It is difficult and refreshing to find such an intelligent scientific mind that also has social skills and social insight. AlainCo is also like that.

  • The “peer review” is ongoing and right here! There are more than a few competent peers engaged in the oongoing OPEN discussion of the work. Alas even some of the blowhard trolls occasionally make themselves useful. Having participated in many closed ‘peer reviews’ for the profit mongering journals of ‘science’ I can tell you this process is far more valid!