Complaint of Andrea Rossi and Leonardo Corp, and License Agreement (Court Documents) — COP "Substantially Greater than fifty (50)" During Test

This document is downloaded from the United States District Court Southern District of Florida website.

http://www.e-catworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Leonardosuit01-main.pdf

UPDATE: The licence agreement between Rossi/Leonardo and IH was a supporting document posted in the court case and it has been posted here:

http://www.sifferkoll.se/sifferkoll/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Rossi_et_al_v_Darden_et_al__flsdce-16-21199__0001.2.pdf

There’s a great deal of information in here. There are some statements in here regarding the test recently concluded:

Here are some points from the complaint regarding the test:

71. … By all accounts, the amount of energy produced by the E-Cat Unit during the Guaranteed Performance Test was substantially greater than fifty (50) times the amount of energy consumed by the E-Cat Unit during the same period.

72. On or about March 29, 2016, the ERV published his final report regarding the operation of the E-Cat Unit during the Guaranteed Performance test. In the ERV’s report, the ERV confirmed that the E-Cat Unit had satisfied all of the performance requirements imposed by the License Agreement including, but not limited to, the requirement that the production of energy was at least six (6) times greater than the energy consumed.

73. More specifically, the ERV found that over the Guaranteed Performance period, the amount of energy produced by the E-Cat Unit was consistently substantially greater than six (6) times the amount of energy consumed by the unit. In fact, the ERV found that during the testing period, the average energy multiplier (Energy Produced + Energy Consumed) was often greater than sixty (60).

  • Bob Tivnan

    Unless information about the 1 MW test comes directly from the ERV report, I am not convinced. I’m certainly not buying into a claim written by Rossi’s attorneys.

    • Ged

      A court of law requires fact. If the basic facts of the filing are wrong, it’ll be tossed out of court immediately.

      • Wishful Thinking Energy

        If Rossi was a crook, this would be a very stupid move bringing a whole lot of attention on him. Clearly he is willing to go before a court of law and testify to the COP etc.

        • Ged

          That, and if this was based on nothing, IH could counter sue and Rossi would be in for a whole new world of hurt.

          • SG

            There will be counterclaims. Without them, IH would have little leverage in the dispute.

  • Bob Tivnan

    Unless information about the 1 MW test comes directly from the ERV report, I am not convinced. I’m certainly not buying into a claim written by Rossi’s attorneys.

    • Ged

      A court of law requires fact. If the basic facts of the filing are wrong, it’ll be tossed out of court immediately.

      • Wishful Thinking Energy

        If Rossi was a crook, this would be a very stupid move bringing a whole lot of attention on him. Clearly he is willing to go before a court of law and testify to the COP etc.

        • Ged

          That, and if this was based on nothing, IH could counter sue and Rossi would be in for a whole new world of hurt.

          • SG

            There will be counterclaims. Without them, IH would have little leverage in the dispute.

  • gregha

    Lawyers trying to do math: “energy multiplier (Energy Produced + Energy Consumed)” should be [energy
    produced/energy consumed].

    • John Littlemist

      Well, the original document has correctly an obelus sign, so this might be Frank’s mistake this time… 😉

  • gregha

    Lawyers trying to do math: “energy multiplier (Energy Produced + Energy Consumed)” should be [energy
    produced/energy consumed].

    • John Littlemist

      Well, the original document has correctly an obelus sign, so this might be Frank’s mistake this time… 😉

  • Michael W Wolf

    So am I to think that IH had to pay rossi for each kw extra the ecat put out and now IH won’t pay because it put out too much and they don’t have the money?

    • Ged

      Apparently this was agreed on several years ago, upwards of 4 or more. So, it doesn’t seem to be a sticker shock. Rather, it could be IH just didn’t raise as much money for this as they thought, and don’t have the funds? On the other hand, it does indeed appear that IH was filing patents on Rossi’s tech and claiming a new co-inventor, as the filing also claims.

      We’ll see.

      • Michael W Wolf

        Yep, scumbag alert. No way would allow them co-inventor authority, at least knowingly.

        • SG

          The complaint doesn’t address whether the license agreement had an assign-back clause, which would have obligated IH to assign any improvements back to Leonardo. We need access to the license agreement. In the absence of such a clause, if IH made an improvement to the underlying invention, they could pursue their own patent (naming all appropriate inventors), and any patent that issued would be jointly owned.

          • US_Citizen71

            Sure but they then only have rights to the improvement not the underlying tech.

      • Michael W Wolf

        Unless they claim below cop of 6, the ecat works and that is more important than Rossi’s being conned. At least for the world, good that Rossi was the one being conned. I hope his quark is not as easily stolen, for his sake.

      • Curbina

        This was well known for any asiduous ECW reader, that there was a patent application of IH since october 2014 with Rossi and an engineer as inventors. I am having a hard time that Rossi would not have been aware of that, unless he has been so isolated and focused that he does not read ECW at all.

        • Curbina
          • Ged

            So, about seven months ago. About the reasonable time frame for a fallout between parties and a lawyer to be contacted.

          • Curbina

            You could be right, but the suit states that this was done without Rossi’s knowledge, unless I am interpreting the word “Unbeknownst” the wrong way.

          • Ged

            I think that would mean the filing was made without his knowledge. e.g. If he found out about it the same way we all did, rather than being the person doing the filing.

          • Gerald

            This must be a coincedence. Searching JM chemicals I found 1 small building from them near florida called intercat..

            https://www.google.com/maps/place/Intercat+Inc/@32.113066,-81.2220017,234m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!1m3!3m2!1s0x0:0xc3a7f765bd562573!2sIntercat+Inc!3m1!1s0x0:0xc3a7f765bd562573?hl=nl-NL

            Take a look at google earth and see what they have behind the building. Is there a way to see how old the google earth photo’s are?

          • Gerald

            Did I make a funny mistake by searching the wrong company? 😉
            I always thought the cats where standing in a hall.

          • Teemu Soilamo

            wpj seems to think it’s Johnson Matthey, not JM Chemicals.

            http://chemicals.matthey.com/

          • I don’t think so. Henry W. Johnson signed on behalf of JM Chemical Products, Inc.

            Henry Johnson is also the President of Leonardo Corp.

            It’s this company: http://visulate.com/rental/visulate_search.php?CORP_ID=P14000056117

            This is another awful development IMO.

            See last page of http://www.sifferkoll.se/sifferkoll/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Rossi_et_al_v_Darden_et_al__flsdce-16-21199__0001.2.pdf

          • Sanjeev

            Johnson Matthey Chemicals is based in UK, like the last page says, but can be just a big coincidence that the names match.
            JMC is a problem because it got incorporated in 2014, just around the time it was “found” by Rossi.
            Anyhow, since IH paid for the plant, the real customer is IH and JMC is a customer of IH, who got the plant on lease and paid $1000 per day to IH. So our fears of IH being the customer are realized !

          • wpj

            The document says that it is a owned by a UK operation; JMC is the stock market listing of Johnson Matthey.

            The Vortex people have speculated on JM Chemicals on 46th/79th.

            Jm Products Corp

            7861 NW 46th St, Doral, FL 33166

            (786) 631-4676

            https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@25.8159196,-80.3238945,208m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en

            But just warehouses and doesn’t seem correct for any chemical operations (I’m a chemist!)

          • Known: JM Chemical (JMC) Products is direct customer.
            Known: Johnson is President of both Leonardo Corp and JM Chemical Products
            Known: JM Chemical Products is owned by a UK entity
            Known: Johnson , Rossi etc have no ownership of JMC

            Educated Guess: Johnson Matthey is the UK entity that owns JMC

            In which case JMC was probably established by Johnson Matthey just to conduct the test.

          • wpj

            Sounds plausible; they have an on going programme of CO2 reduction, so maybe this was a test bed.

            As I mentioned, he possibly had dealings with them for his metals and LAH (though they have just sold Alfa Aesar which would have supplied that).

          • Bob Greenyer

            Johnson Matthey provided the original cathodes to Pons and Fleischmann that worked.

            http://www.e-catworld.com/2015/04/14/mfmp-announce-receipt-of-original-palladium-wire-used-by-martin-fleischmann-plan-for-replication-of-fleischmannpons-experiment/

            With their proven history in this story from the beginning – it is quite likely they approached Rossi and they worked something out to the satisfaction of all parties.

            As others have said – this would explain the next plant being cited in UK – the first was for Rossi’s convenience – this one is for JM convenience.

            If JMC is on board – Rossi does not need IH and it could be JMC that is spearheading the legal case (speculation)

          • Wow, that’s quite a connection!

          • Bob Greenyer

            This could be a beautiful circle – JMC clearing their name by ‘closing the loop’

          • wpj

            Yes, that is the Vortex place; as far as I can see from the earth view there are no chemical type installations that I would recognise.

          • Probably all we need to look for is some kind of vent that 1MW of hot air from a condenser might have been dumped through.

          • Somebody noted on vortex that there is a Pepsi plant next door to one of the sites associated with JMC.

          • That’s a very interesting observation.

          • artefact

            Yes. The company is newly set up. Hard to have them producing something useful. So they could just sell steam to a different company.

          • Ged

            Also, you don’t want to make up stuff for court of law. It doesn’t end well for the one doing the “says” unless they have facts. With the costs of a lawyer and court case, let alone vulnerability to counter suit, Rossi must honestly believe he’s got a strong, solid case.

          • jousterusa

            I hope many here will enjoy our front-page headline! http://www.american-reporter.com

          • Omega Z

            I’ll re-read the arrangement when I get a chance.
            I would assume this would involve new or additional licenses or the replacement of a licensee that quits their territory. Not those that preexist. Obviously, Rossi wouldn’t write himself out.

          • Michael W Wolf

            If they were going to commit fraud, they would claim 3 COP and not risk such a ridiculous COP. Lighten up. The suit won’t be about the COP, it will be over IP or NDA issues. Relax, LENR is a new energy source. Open a bottle of champagne, we are getting there.

          • US_Citizen71
        • Ged

          He could have known, but not acted on it immediately. Getting an attorney and filing a suit does take time, and maybe he thought he could work it out with IH or it would be irrelevant if he got his payment and set up his robotic lines and started cranking out e-cats.

        • Bob Greenyer

          read my post above.

          • Curbina

            The issue is that Rossi is in need of new investors, and with this legal mess in the mix, I think no company will want to do so. Perhaps he will have to make an IPO for Leonardo Corp.

          • US_Citizen71

            I wonder how good his Arabic is? There are multiple Saudi Princes and Princesses that likely have plenty of money to invest.

          • SG

            He will find new investors if needed. Remember the Greek tragedy?

      • Bob Greenyer

        If IH did not pay as per contract – Rossi get the US and ME and China markets back – and IH paid for the test…

    • Michael W Wolf

      Ok, I read the complaint. The only thing IH can claim is they did not pay because ecat did not perform as contracted. But IH applied for patents maintaining that their rep had a right to apply for ecat based patents. So it sounds like IH are scumbags and I hope Rossi’s new and improved variations make the ecat obsolete. I don’t see IH claiming it doesn’t work. Why file patents? Let’s hope Mills doesn’t make the same mistakes Rossi has.

      • LilyLover

        Dr. Mills won’t. Hence he is so slow. He had dealt with bigger sharks.

  • Michael W Wolf

    So am I to think that IH had to pay rossi for each kw extra the ecat put out and now IH won’t pay because it put out too much and they don’t have the money?

    • Ged

      Apparently this was agreed on several years ago, upwards of 4 or more. So, it doesn’t seem to be a sticker shock. Rather, it could be IH just didn’t raise as much money for this as they thought, and don’t have the funds? On the other hand, it does indeed appear that IH was filing patents on Rossi’s tech and claiming a new co-inventor, as the filing also claims.

      We’ll see.

      • Michael W Wolf

        Yep, scumbag alert. No way would allow them co-inventor authority, at least knowingly.

        • SG

          The complaint doesn’t address whether the license agreement had an assign-back clause, which would have obligated IH to assign any improvements back to Leonardo. We need access to the license agreement. In the absence of such a clause, if IH made an improvement to the underlying invention, they could pursue their own patent (naming all appropriate inventors), and any patent that issued would be jointly owned.

          • US_Citizen71

            Sure but they then only have rights to the improvement not the underlying tech.

      • Michael W Wolf

        Unless they claim below cop of 6, the ecat works and that is more important than Rossi’s being conned. At least for the world, good that Rossi was the one being conned. I hope his quark is not as easily stolen, for his sake.

      • Curbina

        This was well known for any asiduous ECW reader, that there was a patent application of IH since october 2014 with Rossi and an engineer as inventors. I am having a hard time that Rossi would not have been aware of that, unless he has been so isolated and focused that he does not read ECW at all.

        • Curbina
          • Ged

            So, about seven months ago. About the reasonable time frame for a fallout between parties and a lawyer to be contacted.

          • Curbina

            You could be right, but the suit states that this was done without Rossi’s knowledge, unless I am interpreting the word “Unbeknownst” the wrong way.

          • Ged

            I think that would mean the filing was made without his knowledge. e.g. If he found out about it the same way we all did, rather than being the person doing the filing.

        • Ged

          He could have known, but not acted on it immediately. Getting an attorney and filing a suit does take time, and maybe he thought he could work it out with IH or it would be irrelevant if he got his payment and set up his robotic lines and started cranking out e-cats.

        • Bob Greenyer

          read my post above.

          • Curbina

            The issue is that Rossi is in need of new investors, and with this legal mess in the mix, I think no company will want to do so. Perhaps he will have to make an IPO for Leonardo Corp.

          • US_Citizen71

            I wonder how good his Arabic is? There are multiple Saudi Princes and Princesses that likely have plenty of money to invest.

          • SG

            He will find new investors if needed. Remember the Greek tragedy?

      • Bob Greenyer

        If IH did not pay as per contract – Rossi get the US and ME and China markets back – and IH paid for the test…

    • Michael W Wolf

      Ok, I read the complaint. The only thing IH can claim is they did not pay because ecat did not perform as contracted. But IH applied for patents maintaining that their rep had a right to apply for ecat based patents. So it sounds like IH are scumbags and I hope Rossi’s new and improved variations make the ecat obsolete. I don’t see IH claiming it doesn’t work. Why file patents? Let’s hope Mills doesn’t make the same mistakes Rossi has.

      • LilyLover

        Dr. Mills won’t. Hence he is so slow. He had dealt with bigger sharks.

  • Andrew

    Im wondering (and it would be brilliant if true) if this is all an orchestrated PR stunt. Imagine inventor takes company to court over an impossible invention and wins…… Court approved conformation the Ecat work and all the media hoopla surrounding such a case…

  • Wishful Thinking Energy

    We now see why Rossi was willing to spend all day every day in the container. He was to get paid $250000 a day!

    • Ged

      That’d be enough to motivate most folks!

      • e-dog

        Yep…

    • e-dog

      Its all about the money

      • Andrew

        Have you ever thought that Rossi may have been relying on the bonus money to give production a jumpstart?

        • Bob Greenyer

          Yes – that is the reason – and there is every reason to not allow that from IH perspective – given that they are invested in other companies.

        • Michael W Wolf

          After IH rebuttal, Rossi will have access to much money.

          • For all the Skeptics, people don’t try to steal ideas and parrot patents if they don’t work.

          • Teemu Soilamo

            Just ask Defkalion! Oh, wai–

      • Iggy Dalrymple

        Money is a widely accepted medium of economic exchange. I realize some prefer food stamps.

    • Bob Greenyer

      Cheap, a bargain in fact, if the tech is real!

      • Michael W Wolf

        The tech is real Bob, you know that.

        • Bob Greenyer

          Well – we have yet to confirm the high COP levels.

  • Wishful Thinking Energy

    We now see why Rossi was willing to spend all day every day in the container. He was to get paid $250000 a day!

    • Ged

      That’d be enough to motivate most folks!

      • e-dog

        Yep…

    • e-dog

      Its all about the money

      • Andrew

        Have you ever thought that Rossi may have been relying on the bonus money to give production a jumpstart?

        • Christina

          Yes. I don’t think he’s buying multiple Rolls Royces with that money; he’s reinvesting it in the E-Cat building companies.

        • Bob Greenyer

          Yes – that is the reason – and there is every reason to not allow that from IH perspective – given that they are invested in other companies.

        • Michael W Wolf

          After IH rebuttal, Rossi will have access to much money.

      • Iggy Dalrymple

        Money is a widely accepted medium of economic exchange. I realize some prefer food stamps.

        • roseland67

          In California they’ll take water

        • Frechette

          Some have no other choice!

    • Bruce__H

      Rossi spending all day every day in the container is a big problem for the whole test. If he wanted to convince people of the reality of the process he should not have been anywhere near the thing.

      • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

        With all due respect, I think that’s rubbish.

        It’s a prototype reactor that has to be fiddled with all the time to keep it running smoothly. He’s also the inventor, so why shouldn’t he be with his invention? This is not a test to convince anyone if this is a scam, this was a real life test where key factors are reliability of the process, the longevity of the fuel charge and the real world savings of the energy bill. It’s not about if this is a scam or not; we are way past that stage.

        • Bruce__H

          We’re not past that stage.

      • Mike Henderson

        1MW x 24 hours would require more than 1500 gallons of fossil fuel per day. Rossi would have to be pedaling pretty hard to cheat on that test.

    • Bob Greenyer

      Cheap, a bargain in fact, if the tech is real!

      • Michael W Wolf

        The tech is real Bob, you know that.

        • Bob Greenyer

          Well – we have yet to confirm the high COP levels.

  • wpj

    Interesting read. Looks like he is saying the only money they had was from Woodford after the initial $10m payment and then they took hisvtech to the others that they were “investing” in.

    All sad, but expected of the vultures. Thought these people were better.

  • wpj

    Interesting read. Looks like he is saying the only money they had was from Woodford after the initial $10m payment and then they took hisvtech to the others that they were “investing” in.

    All sad, but expected of the vultures. Thought these people were better.

  • Patrick Ellul

    This washing of dirty laundry in public is great. More will be exposed. Also looking forward to what will happen to @mats002 convention. Will the report be leaked?

    • John Littlemist

      FYI, Mats002 is not Mats Lewan.

      • Patrick Ellul

        my mistake

  • Patrick Ellul

    This washing of dirty laundry in public is great. More will be exposed. Also looking forward to what will happen to [corrected Mats Lewan]’s convention. Will the report be leaked?

    • John Littlemist

      FYI, Mats002 is not Mats Lewan.

      • Patrick Ellul

        my mistake

  • Curbina

    I read in a mixture of awe and disbelief the 27 pages of the lawsuit. The odd thing is that at the end this is all for the failure of IH to pay. I doubt they failure to pay is based in disbelief of the ERV, as they were informed at all times of the ongoing performance. A key incident, at least for me, is that IH was not at all capable of performing the test on the plant for themselves, and that Rossi had to step in to find a proper site to perform it. All that said, I am having a hard time to believe that Rossi was unaware of the dealings of IH with “the competitors” while this is old news for all of us following this saga since Darden’s ICCF speech, and Brillouin’s name was in the mix since about at east two months ago if not before. The idea that the average cop was 50 is thrilling in itself, and again, I doubt this is the point of conflict. This plot thickened amazingly in just a couple of hours for all the “audience”.

    • Michael W Wolf

      Ecat works!!!! We just have to wait for IH to rebut. Being that they represent themselves as rossi co-inventor, It doesn’t seem to be because it was below cop of 6. Yay!

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        IH has created nothing, they are basically Wall Street bankers.

    • deleo77

      It’s hard to believe that with the COP’s stated in the lawsuit that there could be such gross measurement error and setup to make the whole test invalid. More likely we would be talking about blatant fraud and deception. Penon, Fabiani and Rossi all in it together pulling a fast one on IH to get a big payday at the end of a fabricated test. That would go beyond a civil suit. It would potentially become a criminal fraud case. And again, with COP we are talking about how could these gains not easily be seen on the power meter. You would almost have to argue that the deception included the customer or involved tampering with the power meter. What a case

      • Ged

        All the more reason it’s insane if Rossi was indeed long conning and filed this suit; he’d be dooming himself and the other two.

        Edit: Albeit, Penon seems to have been IH’s call from the beginning.

      • Teemu Soilamo

        But if the COP is faked, why go so overboard?

      • jimbo92107

        If IH thought Rossi was perpetrating a fraud, why would they not file a criminal complaint? Fraud of this magnitude would put Rossi, his ERV, and his “customer” behind bars for twenty years.

        Of course, that could set the stage for the most dramatic court case in history. Rossi need merely bring to court a single Quark X stick powering a 100 Watt incandescent light bulb all day long. Case dismissed, world saved.

        • Teemu Soilamo

          This would make for a great movie, damn!

  • I believe IH has had a lot pressure on them (from many directions), and have not been able to raise enough money. Their main problem is lack of IP rights, so they more or less faked that they had those when getting Woodford in. This is the reason the patent Rossi has is so important, which Rossi has stated numerous times. I believe Darden was betting on this not happening and him beeing able to get in on it, even though the license agreement said otherwise. Darden failed. And he knows it and has now entered damage control. And that is exactly why Apco is in the game.

    • Curbina

      That would be a very dishonest mess, and would speak very bad of Darden, yet, It would not surprise me that much if its actually the case.

    • Mike Henderson

      Never believe the first side that you hear of an ugly divorce. There is always another side. I believe IH has 30 days to file a response.

      • Ged

        Hopefully they will reply before then. We all want to hear their side.

        • Bob Greenyer

          Yes – and the responses.

    • Ophelia Rump

      Cherokee is a fund in the Billions, I don’t get the part about “all of Cherokee on the line”.
      Darden could have easily used the fund to cover the payment. He chose not to.

      Is it possible that this is just a dog and pony show and they will come to a settlement with more attention being payed to the debacle than the technology this could be pure P.T Barnum?

      Step Right up five dollars to see the Egress!

      • MasterBlaster7

        P.T. Barnum squared if it goes to trial.

      • Cherokee has investors that can withdraw. It’s not Dardens money. Stealing IP, not paying according to contract put his credibility on line. I would take my money elsewhare. For sure.

        • Ophelia Rump

          Any fund I ever bought into had discretion over where the money went.

          • I know case where people prefered to backstab partners to try to get the lion share rather than cooperate and wait for the cake to be cooked.

      • LilyLover

        “could have easily”
        Darden failed to bilk Rossi. His masters are angry. He should be happy to stay alive and live a natural life. They won’t let him play with $1, let alone $100M!!

    • LilyLover

      I’m glad someone else also sees Darden for his true colors.

  • I believe IH has had a lot pressure on them (from many directions), and have not been able to raise enough money. Their main problem is lack of IP rights, so they more or less faked that they had those when getting Woodford in. This is the reason the patent Rossi has is so important, which Rossi has stated numerous times. I believe Darden was betting on this not happening and him beeing able to get in on it, even though the license agreement said otherwise. Darden failed. And he knows it and has now entered damage control having put all of Cherokee on the line. And that is exactly why Apco is in the game.

    • Curbina

      That would be a very dishonest mess, and would speak very bad of Darden, yet, It would not surprise me that much if its actually the case.

    • Mike Henderson

      Never believe the first side that you hear of an ugly divorce. There is always another side. I believe IH has 30 days to file a response.

      • Ged

        Hopefully they will reply before then. We all want to hear their side.

        • Bob Greenyer

          Yes – and the responses.

    • Ophelia Rump

      Cherokee is a fund in the Billions, I don’t get the part about “all of Cherokee on the line”.
      Darden could have easily used the fund to cover the payment. He chose not to.

      Is it possible that this is just a dog and pony show and they will come to a settlement with more attention being payed to the debacle than the technology. This could be pure P.T Barnum?

      Step Right up five dollars to see the Egress!

      • MasterBlaster7

        P.T. Barnum squared if it goes to trial.

      • Cherokee has investors that can withdraw. It’s not Dardens money. Stealing IP, not paying according to contract put his credibility on line. I would take my money elsewhare. For sure.

        • Ophelia Rump

          I sincerely doubt that Darden is stealing anything. They all have more to gain by playing nicely together.

          Played well they could own the lions share of the primary power source for the human race for the next thousand years.

          • I know case where people prefered to backstab partners to try to get the lion share rather than cooperate and wait for the cake to be cooked.

          • I know case where people prefered to backstab partners to try to get the lion share rather than cooperate and wait for the cake to be cooked.

      • LilyLover

        “could have easily”
        Darden failed to bilk Rossi. His masters are angry. He should be happy to stay alive and live a natural life. They won’t let him play with $1, let alone $100M!!

    • LilyLover

      I’m glad someone else also sees Darden for his true colors.

  • roseland67

    Seems Krivit may have been closer to the truth than many want to accept.

    • Zavod

      Assume I know nothing of Krivit, please expand.

  • Bob Greenyer

    I said this below.

    If IH did not pay as per contract – Rossi get the US and ME and China markets back – and IH paid for the test…

    • Curbina

      I get your point, but who will invest on Rossi amidst a legal battle?

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        If the report is correct, a lot of people will invest.

      • MLTC

        I would help Rossi if I had a lot of money!

      • LilyLover

        This is the real reason why they are not paying up per the wishes of their masters in order to delay E-Cats as mush as they can. The delay of one day in Rossi’s progress is worth more than $100M to the Oil-slickos and the present masters of the Earth.
        You directly unveiled their plans!

        • Ted-X

          +3

    • Brent Buckner

      Perhaps IH will claim that Leonardo does not have exclusive rights to the E-Cat X, claiming that it was substantially developed while Rossi was an employee or officer of IH ( http://www.e-catworld.com/2014/01/27/rossi-confirms-position-at-industrial-heat-llc/ ).

      • SG

        I think you are probably correct in that this will be the central theme of IH’s counterclaim strategy. Was Mr. Rossi really an employee of IH? What kind of employment agreement was in place? This case will have many twists and turns.

      • That sort of implies that the it works though. And they should then pay him regardless.

        • Brent Buckner

          Yes, I think the implication would be that it works. In terms of paying, though, I’ll leave the “should” to the courts – if IH has a reasonable legal claim to worldwide rights on the E-Cat X then they have duties to firmly press that claim.

          • LilyLover

            When immorality grows rampantly, it is our moral duty to shape the opinions of the courts rather than abdicating the outcome.

      • LilyLover

        Is ‘to accept similar position at higher salary and longer duration and improve upon the E-CatX at another company’ a solution to “Oh, see – they paid the salary!”?

        • Brent Buckner

          I don’t know.

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      They have his IP and claiming it as their own. They now have the whole world.

      • James Rice

        True. IH is the assignee (owner) of the US patent, and is the applicant of the European patent. Not sure why Rossi did this, as it doesn’t appear that it is required by the license agreement.

        • SG

          Incorrect. Leonardo is the owner of the granted US patent. Leonardo has only ever licensed its IP to IH, never outright transferred it.

  • Curbina

    And electricity bill of the testing facility company should settle the matter, unless they are prepared to claim that Rossi somehow stole from the electricity company.

    • US_Citizen71

      As I stated above the connection was 250kW no possible way to quadruple that without tripping all kinds of safeties on the grid.

  • Mike Henderson

    The customer was willing to pay $1000 per day for the energy produced by the test device. That amount divided by 24 hrs / day and by 1000 kw / Mw is about $0.041 per kwh.

    Florida industrial & commercial electric rates average are in the vicinity of $0,09 / kwh.

    So the $1000 / day price seems in line with the customer getting the output of the test for about 50% of what they would otherwise have paid.

    • Bob Greenyer

      Very nice if you can save 50% of your energy bill

    • Ged

      Very nifty info, thanks for the calculations, Mike.

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        Rossi had no choice but to sue, they were purposely trying to steal his IP. This smells to me like an orchestrated attempt by big money interests to delay the implementation of LENR. The suit states the license agreement is attached to suit, so do we have access to the license agreement? Sure would be interesting reading.

        • Guest

          Come on, if IH really believed this thing delivered 50+ COP you don’t think they’d be willing to pay $89M? Even if they didn’t have rights to the IP, but just to manufacture and sell in the largest global markets they’d make PLENTY of money.

          This clearly seems to be a pre-emptive suit by Rossi because he expected IH to sue him…

          • SG

            So, you really think IH believes the e-Cat is a bunch of bunk?

          • Anon2012_2014

            COP 50 is a hyperbolic exaggeration. The complaint says COP 50 for brief periods of time. The average COP claimed in the complaint is 6.

            I suspect that Rossi did not deliver a “working device” that produced economic heat at COP of 6 in a consistent reliable manner, thereby failing the commercialization test. I suspect that it did produce COP of 6 on average but with some COP of under 6 to balance the COP of 50 for brief periods.

            Overall, Rossi should have negotiated for continued funding of another $10 mm while he refines the device. It appears as if Rossi decided to use the contract to try and shake down his partner Industrial Heat when the device was clearly not yet worth $100 mm.

            I am very annoyed that Rossi chooses litigation yet again rather than works it out with his partner. This is slowing down the development.

          • Sanjeev

            Thanks to all who provided the documents and made them public. So many things that were in dark are now coming to light. As expected, the report is positive for the longer 350 day test. It was positive for the shorter 120 day test too (also by Penon), which resulted in payment of $10m to Rossi and transfer of IP (including the catalyst formula) to IH. Now the final payment is held due to some issue, which can be because either IH is not happy with the report or some other condition of License agreement is not being fulfilled.

            The customer is JM Chemical Products Inc of Florida (this is not a news, it was suspected long ago), who is not a big or well known entity as far as I know. However, the test is a matter between IH and Rossi, not very connected to the customer. If IH pays the remaining amount, that will be a big evidence. The report, ERV or the customer do not matter much relatively.

            Sadly, the suit means it will be a long delay regardless of the truth of the plant.

          • Anon2012_2014

            Documents: Pacer documents cost 10 cents a page so that the court can recover costs. Those who provided you with docs saved you $7. I agree it should be free, but it is truly next to nothing compared to the value in the papers, and if your curious you can get your own Pacer account.

          • Sanjeev

            Thanks Anon. I’d surely do that if I need something desperately.

          • Frank Acland

            Sanjeev, I believe I read in one of the documents revealed today that the first validation test which Fabio Penon refereed was only 24 hours long.

          • Sanjeev

            Yes, that’s right. 24 hour test to be conducted within 120 days.

          • Mats002

            Yes thanks for bringing forward the documents! I am not convinced that the one man ERV is matter less. What do we know about this Penon? Why is he trustworthy?

          • Sanjeev

            Honestly, we, the bystanders, have no idea who Penon is, so can’t comment.
            However, it looks like he was appointed with the consent of IH, who must have done their checks. And IH was convinced of the E-Cat tested by Penon in 24 hour test and immediately paid $10m to get the IP.

            Personally, I’d have preferred a well known agency or university etc. But the matter is between IH and Penon, and if IH is happy with him , no issues.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            „Sadly, the suit means it will be a long delay regardless of the truth of the plant.“

            Fortunately, there is still HydroFusion as a ‘confirmed’ licensee. So maybe the ball will start rolling in due time, just in another place.

          • Sanjeev

            HF/Rossi will need some funds before it can be done.
            Probably he was relying on the $89m, and that’s why he always said that he will start the mass production only after the report comes out to be positive. It was not the results, it was the money he was waiting for.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            Right. Hopefully, Rossi/Leonardo did not get into debt in anticipation of the payment. That could end in a very sad way if he would not find new investors soon.

          • SG

            I suspect Mr. Rossi’s immediate focus has shifted to Europe and his other licensees. He will fight this battle with IH in the background. Yes, a lot to take on for anyone, but Mr. Rossi has been through the refiners fire numerous times already, and can probably handle it.

          • SG

            The license agreement only required a COP of 4 (see section 5). I don’t think the COP is the issue. Other things at play.

          • artefact

            From the complaint:

            “71. … By all accounts, the amount of energy produced by the E-Cat Unit during the Guaranteed Performance Test was substantially greater than fifty (50) times the amount of energy consumed by the E-Cat Unit during the same period.”

            They sometimes talk of “substantially greater than 6” because 6 was the minimum required COP which they had to top. Well, the minimum was 4, but 6 is what Rossi promised.

          • Bernie Koppenhofer

            Didn’t you disagree with me a few days ago saying all was peaches and cream between Rossi and IH?

          • wpj

            Assign means that they have the rights to use those technologies included in the patent; it does not necessarily give them ownership unless you are actually working for that company and it is part of your contact of employment.

        • deleo77

          Darden sits on numerous corporate and non-profit boards, he has business interests and real estate holdings around the world, and he is a member of the NC Bar Association. Does he risk tarnishing his hard earned reputation as a guy who is now out to steal IP from the person who came up with the invention? Darden has always seemed like a cautious, reasonable and level headed person. I seriously doubt that he attempted to do this.

          • Who knows? It may be out of Darden’s hands at this point. I think everyone will be played at this point, the money is too big.

          • SG

            Parting with $89 is not easy, for any company. IH already have the know-how. Whether Darden is in control or not, it seems like a calculated decision not to make payment. There are a variety of ways that IH can turn this and make it look like they are the good guys in the dispute. And believe me, they will try, as hard as they can.

          • The answer might as simple as that he failed to raise enough money and that he actually believed he would be in on the IP. He played it that way towards Woodford it seems

          • cashmemorz

            And Rossi must have read what he was signing or at least his lawyer read the “in house employee agreement”

          • LilyLover

            I.e. Vampire on the roundtable of donation skimming for-profit-of-salary non-profits?
            If you wanted to be the best vampire, you blend in.

          • Bernie Koppenhofer

            These are huge stakes with many interested (money) important people involved.

          • Bernie Koppenhofer

            Thank you.

      • LuFong

        OK the mystery of the 352 test days is resolved. This is the operational days so Rossi went beyond the 350 required by the test. The test started “on or about” February 19th, 2015 and ended February 15th, 2016. This means about 362 days or so as I calculated and thus there were only about 10 down days total.

        I won’t pester you all with this anymore!

        • LuFong

          Krivit must have heard something because what he wrote and the conclusion that he drew were not connected.

          • Andrew

            One thing doesn’t jive with krivits theories though. Being as old as Rossi with $11.5M in the bank is more than enough to live the rest of your life doing whatever you want, Why toil over another $90M?

          • cashmemorz

            Because a trillion is much, much better than 11

          • Andrew

            Because whey your 80 you need to have 50 supermodels surrounding you instead of 5. I guess he plans on making up for that lost time in jail.

          • LilyLover

            In Rossi’s place I’d surely have done that. BUT I profess that dear Dr. Rossi is going to be fully faithful to his wife and not “talk to” one single “supermodel” to make up for his time in prison.

        • Ged

          Amazing what good this court document has done for us.

    • NT

      Are you sure the customer was using electricity for their main operations, because Rossi was furishing them Heat not electricity, so the gas meter must be the one used and the price of gas for calculations- correct?

      • Brent Buckner

        Good point respective of savings – cost of electricity to supply E-cat versus cost of gas for conventional heat.

        • NT

          Yes, both forms of energy (and their costs) belong in the equation…

  • Mike Henderson

    The customer was willing to pay $1000 per day for the energy produced by the test device. That amount divided by 24 hrs / day and by 1000 kw / Mw is about $0.041 per kwh.

    Florida industrial & commercial electric rates average are in the vicinity of $0,09 / kwh.

    So the $1000 / day price seems in line with the customer getting the output of the test for about 50% of what they would otherwise have paid.

    • Bob Greenyer

      Very nice if you can save 50% of your energy bill

    • Ged

      Very nifty info, thanks for the calculations, Mike.

    • NT

      Are you sure the customer was using electricity for their main operations, because Rossi was furishing them Heat not electricity, so the gas meter must be the one used and the price of gas for calculations- correct?

      • Brent Buckner

        Good point respective of savings – cost of electricity to supply E-cat versus cost of gas for conventional heat.

        • NT

          Yes, both forms of energy (and their costs) belong in the equation…

  • The “customer” for E-cat 1 MW unit is located in Miami, Florida.

    • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

      I think that’s general knowledge for quite some time now.

    • US_Citizen71

      Actually a northwestern suburb of Miami from some sleuthing I did months back in my opinion. I would have to review my postings to tell you exactly where I thought it was.

    • Guest

      The below is speculation on the identify of the customer…

      I think the “customer” is most likely J.M. Products Inc, who provided a statement and photo included in support of Rossi’s patent application (http://tsdr.uspto.gov/documentviewer?caseId=sn85804314&docId=IPC20150505114510#docIndex=11&page=3).

      The alarming part of this story is that Henry W Johnson is the one signing the letter from J.M. Products, Inc. – the very same Henry Johnson that happens to be Rossi’s lawyer and President of Leonardo Corp (http://www.cobraf.com/forum/immagini/R_123548001_1.pdf). I’m guessing this undisclosed connection would likely be an issue for the patent office, especially as it was used as proof that the unit was for sale… So either J.M. Products is the customer (clearly linked to Rossi), or Rossi is at least trying to create the impression that J.M. Products is independent as a source of support for his patent.

      With the combination of Penon as ERV, a Rossi-linked shell company as likely “customer”, and a public fallout with IH over this report, does it really seem likely Rossi is the aggrieved party?

      Just saying, if the evidence of success was ironclad, does anyone honestly think it wouldn’t be worth it to IH to just pay the $89M?

      • US_Citizen71
      • LilyLover

        Not if your orders are to keep quiet and burry Rossi by bribing, buying or bullying.

        • Guest

          I’m not sure where you’re going with that…

          If you really think IH is controlled by some shadowy global interest group then wouldn’t it make more sense for them to pay the $89M? Then they’d own the rights and could just sit on the tech quietly forever.

          Instead they decided that the best way to keep quiet/bury Rossi was by forcing public litigation???

          That’s not even close to logical.

          • LilyLover

            Rossi has ECatX; they don’t.
            Rossi can start producing with ABB without IH. Converse not true. For that Rossi needs money. They deprive him that money. Rossi struggles.
            How much more of an immoral, paid oily snake are you?

  • The Energy multiplier was greater than 60 for the E-cat unit according to the Expert Responsible for Validation (ERV) Report.

    • Anon2012_2014

      “The Energy multiplier was greater than 60”

      False according to the complaint. The energy multiplier was 50 for brief periods of time and averaged more than 6 according to the complaint.

      • artefact

        From the complaint:
        “71. … By all accounts, the amount of energy produced by the E-Cat Unit during the Guaranteed Performance Test was substantially greater than fifty (50) times the amount of energy consumed by the E-Cat Unit during the same period.
        … In fact, the ERV found that during the testing period, the average energy multiplier (Energy Produced + Energy Consumed) was often greater than sixty (60).”

  • The Energy multiplier was greater than 60 for the E-cat unit according to the Expert Responsible for Validation (ERV) Report.

    • Anon2012_2014

      “The Energy multiplier was greater than 60”

      False according to the complaint. The energy multiplier was 50 for brief periods of time and averaged more than 6 according to the complaint.

      • artefact

        From the complaint:
        “71. … By all accounts, the amount of energy produced by the E-Cat Unit during the Guaranteed Performance Test was substantially greater than fifty (50) times the amount of energy consumed by the E-Cat Unit during the same period.
        … In fact, the ERV found that during the testing period, the average energy multiplier (Energy Produced + Energy Consumed) was often greater than sixty (60).”

  • Industrial Heat raised $50 million dollars from the Woodford Funds

  • Industrial Heat raised $50 million dollars from the Woodford Funds

  • The complaint states that Industrial Heat is making Clams on Rossi’s Patents and shared Intellectual property with 3rd parties and his competitors.

  • The complaint states that Industrial Heat is making Clams on Rossi’s Patents and shared Intellectual property with 3rd parties and his competitors.

  • The complaint states Industrial Heat failed to pay Leonardo Company $89 million payment per its licensing agreement.

  • The complaint states Industrial Heat failed to pay Leonardo Company $89 million payment per its licensing agreement.

  • Who is Thomas Barker Dameron?

    • Brent Buckner

      Named as a co-inventor on a patent filing IIRC.

      • Rather, why is he on the patent? What did he do? What does he do? Where does he live? Who does he work for?

        • Ged

          All pertinent questions.

        • Frechette

          Where he lives is on the patent.

        • LilyLover

          Because IH wanted a believable obedient scapegoat. He earned Rossi’s trust. He obeys as his masters say. He lives in a house. He works for Oil-slickos.

    • Josh G

      He was hired by IH along with Fulvio Fabiani, to work on and help oversee operations at the test site. Basically one of IH’s moles inside the operation. No relation to Po Dameron.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    Rossi had no choice but to sue, they were purposely trying to steal his IP. This smells to me like an orchestrated attempt by big money interests to delay the implementation of LENR. The suit states the license agreement is attached to suit, so do we have access to the license agreement? Sure would be interesting reading. Why isn’t the report part of the suit?

    • Guest

      Come on, if IH really believed this thing delivered 50+ COP you don’t think they’d be willing to pay $89M? Even if they didn’t have rights to the IP, but just to manufacture and sell in the largest global markets they’d make PLENTY of money.

      This clearly seems to be a pre-emptive suit by Rossi because he expected IH to sue him…

      • SG

        So, you really think IH believes the e-Cat is a bunch of bunk?

      • Anon2012_2014

        COP 50 is a hyperbolic exaggeration. The complaint says COP 50 for brief periods of time. The average COP claimed in the complaint is 6.

        I suspect that Rossi did not deliver a “working device” that produced economic heat at COP of 6 in a consistent reliable manner, thereby failing the commercialization test. I suspect that it did produce COP of 6 on average but with some COP of under 6 to balance the COP of 50 for brief periods.

        Overall, Rossi should have negotiated for continued funding of another $10 mm while he refines the device. It appears as if Rossi decided to use the contract to try and shake down his partner Industrial Heat when the device was clearly not yet worth $100 mm.

        I am very annoyed that Rossi chooses litigation yet again rather than works it out with his partner. This is slowing down the development.

        • SG

          The license agreement only required a COP of 4 (see section 5). I don’t think the COP is the issue. Other things at play.

        • artefact

          From the complaint:

          “71. … By all accounts, the amount of energy produced by the E-Cat Unit during the Guaranteed Performance Test was substantially greater than fifty (50) times the amount of energy consumed by the E-Cat Unit during the same period.”

          They sometimes talk of “substantially greater than 6” because 6 was the minimum required COP which they had to top. Well, the minimum was 4, but 6 is what Rossi promised.

          • rocky172534

            thanks for shutting anon up art.you as well as i actually read it..

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        Didn’t you disagree with me a few days ago saying all was peaches and cream between Rossi and IH?

        • Guest

          No, I certainly did not. I did see a separate “guest” (in gray) posting, but don’t recall that particular disagreement.

          If you look at my history of comments you’ll see that I haven’t been wrong here (brought up Penon and JM Products as likely ERV and Customer over a week ago…).

    • deleo77

      Darden sits on numerous corporate and non-profit boards, he has business interests and real estate holdings around the world, and he is a member of the NC Bar Association. Does he risk tarnishing his hard earned reputation as a guy who is now out to steal IP from the person who came up with the invention? Darden has always seemed like a cautious, reasonable and level headed person. I seriously doubt that he attempted to do this.

      • Who knows? It may be out of Darden’s hands at this point. I think everyone will be played at this point, the money is too big.

        • SG

          Parting with $89 million is not easy, for any company. IH already have the know-how. Whether Darden is in control or not, it seems like a calculated decision not to make payment. There are a variety of ways that IH can turn this and make it look like they are the good guys in the dispute. And believe me, they will try, as hard as they can.

      • The answer might as simple as that he failed to raise enough money and that he actually believed he would be in on the IP. He played it that way towards Woodford it seems

      • cashmemorz

        And Rossi must have read what he was signing or at least his lawyer read the “in house employee agreement”

      • LilyLover

        I.e. Vampire on the roundtable of donation skimming for-profit-of-salary non-profits?
        If you wanted to be the best vampire, you blend in.

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        These are huge stakes with many interested (money) important people involved.

      • Guest

        This is a treasure trove!

        On page 11 of the license agreement, section 13.4 (back half) it seems to say that “the Company” (IH) has rights to any ideas/improvements/etc on the e-cat IP once the license has started – so doesn’t that suggest that IH was well within rights to post their own patent application (which also included Rossi)?

        • Andrew

          That paragraph is just stating that IH has access to any future improvements under this licence agreement without having to pay more.

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        Thank you.

    • yeah and do we get to see exhibit a, b, c, d as well?

  • For all the Skeptics, people don’t try to steal ideas and parrot patents if they don’t work.

    • Teemu Soilamo

      Just ask Defkalion! Oh, wai–

  • Here is the patent application mentioned in the complaint http://patents.justia.com/patent/20160051957

  • Hhiram

    I’m confused about the international patent. How and/or why would IH apply for a patent in Rossi’s name? Could they have done that without his knowledge? He must have approved of it at the time, yes?

    • James Rice

      Rossi is listed as a co-inventor on that patent. That means he signed the patent application and so was of course aware of it.

      • SG

        Not necessarily.

        • James Rice

          No, the license agreement says that all such improvements will “be delivered” to IH, and be covered by the license agreement. By “delivered”, it is spelled out that this is simply a binder with all the trade secrets and patents. It doesn’t say that the actual ownership of the original I.P. or improvements will be transferred to IH.

          Listing IH as patent assignee (owner) of the European patent would not appear to be required by the license agreement. Not sure why Rossi did that (that is, signed the patent and patent assignment form.

          • Brent Buckner

            You wrote: “Not sure why Rossi did that (that is, signed the patent and patent assignment form.”

            Perhaps related to his stance at the time on his role as Chief Scientist at IH (per http://www.e-catworld.com/2014/01/27/rossi-confirms-position-at-industrial-heat-llc/ )

          • SG

            All improvements made by Mr. Rossi and Leonardo fall within the scope of the original license to IH. All improvements made by IH belong to IH. The clause is very carefully written.

          • Winebuff67

            Companies usually work with other companies their own size to avoid getting caught in a drawn out court battle that only the richer one can survive

          • Jonnyb

            He will get plenty of money from TV appearances etc. Helping others develop their products.

          • SG

            I doubt Mr. Rossi signed onto IH’s patent application, even though it lists Mr. Rossi as an inventor.

          • pg

            Ok, that is what the exchange above refers to, as Rossi (the inventor) being Meucci, and IH (who wants to take the credit and make the money) as Bell.

    • Brent Buckner

      You wrote: “How and/or why would IH apply for a patent in Rossi’s name?”

      Perhaps related to Rossi’s stance on his role as Chief Scientist at IH (per http://www.e-catworld.com/2014/01/27/rossi-confirms-position-at-industrial-heat-llc/ ).

  • Hhiram

    I’m confused about the international patent. How and/or why would IH apply for a patent in Rossi’s name? Could they have done that without his knowledge? He must have approved of it at the time, yes?

  • LuFong

    I just read through the document, skimming very quickly the last part. Sounds like Rossi is claiming that Darden and Vaughn have been screwing him from the very beginning. Sounds hard to believe but the document lays out the case.

  • Antimondialiste

    who will produce e-cat and sell it now ?!!
    i want my e-cat

  • roseland67

    If this goes to court and somehow Rossi wins, any evidence the judge allows can be used in patent filing essentially making the existence of LENR devices legitimate.

  • Rheulan

    I thoroughly read the license agreement avaiable at http://www.sifferkoll.se/sifferkoll/ and found a loophole that IH might use to claim the property of the E-Cat IP: see item 13.4 of said agreement.

    This item states that all inventions, discoveries, improvements, alterations, etc., related to the base E-Cat IP, made after the date of the License commences, belongs to IH.

    • Andrew

      It clearly states that any improvements(paraphrasing) will be within the scope of the Ecat ip and all rights to use it as per the licence agreement shall remain with IH.

      • Rheulan

        Item 13.4, Line 24: “Further, ir is acknowledged and agreed that, from the date the license commences, any and all inventions (…) and anything else the Company (i.e.: Industrial Heat, see page 1 of the L.A.)(…) makes or develops wich relate to the E-Cat IP (…) shall be and shall remain PROPERTY of the Company.”

        • Andrew

          Line 20. …..if such rights are not owned by Leonardo……

          • Rheulan

            The part I quoted is an exception to the norm you stated. I still maintain that IH will probably exploit this exception.

    • hokmah

      rights, not belong to..

    • James Rice

      No, the license agreement says that all such improvements will “be delivered” to IH, and be covered by the license agreement. By “delivered”, it is spelled out that this is simply a binder with all the trade secrets and patents. It doesn’t say that the actual ownership of the original I.P. or improvements will be transferred to IH.

      Listing IH as patent assignee (owner) of the European patent would not appear to be required by the license agreement. Not sure why Rossi did that (that is, signed the patent and patent assignment form.

      • Brent Buckner

        You wrote: “Not sure why Rossi did that (that is, signed the patent and patent assignment form.”

        Perhaps related to his stance at the time on his role as Chief Scientist at IH (per http://www.e-catworld.com/2014/01/27/rossi-confirms-position-at-industrial-heat-llc/ )

        I note that per 13.4 that IH would have no obligations to Leonardo respective of improvements by IH.

      • Rheulan

        I beg to differ. See my comment below.

      • Guest

        The back half of 13.4 says shall be property of ‘the Company’ (IH)… I guess a jury will determine?

        Is there a signed patent/assignment for this one?

        If so, then the paragraph in question plus Rossi signing off suggest that AR probably doesn’t have a case on the IP theft accusations, so then it just comes down to contract fulfillment – did Rossi meet his end of the bargain sufficiently to compel IH to make payment…

      • SG

        All improvements made by Mr. Rossi and Leonardo fall within the scope of the original license to IH. All improvements made by IH belong to IH. The clause is very carefully written.

      • SG

        I doubt Mr. Rossi signed onto IH’s patent application, even though it lists Mr. Rossi as an inventor.

    • Rheulan

      Gentleman, terrible mistake (omission) from my part: “all inventions, discoveries, improvements, alterations, etc., related to the base E-Cat IP, made after the date of the License commences, belongs to IH.ll inventions, discoveries, improvements, alterations, etc., related to the base E-Cat IP, MADE BY INDUSTRIAL HEAT after the date of the License commences, belongs to IH.”

  • Andrew

    Interesting.
    Fuel costs: $0.1/MWhr
    Operational and matinance costs: $0.5/MWhr

    http://www.sifferkoll.se/sifferkoll/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Rossi_et_al_v_Darden_et_al__flsdce-16-21199__0001.2.pdf

    Pg21

    • James Rice

      For comparison, fuel costs for fossil fuel power plants in 2014 were $29/MWhr: http://www.eia.gov/electricity/annual/html/epa_08_04.html

      • peacelovewoodstock

        A bit of apples and oranges as e-cat generates thermal power (apparently at 60 cents per MWhr exclusive of capital costs) and EIA data is for electrical power generation. A fair comparison would require conversion of e-cat thermal output to electricity (with attendant losses due to innefficiencies) so instead of a 50x improvement it may only be 10x or 20x but still!

  • US_Citizen71

    Page 20 of the license agreement lists 9 patents as part of the IP one of which is for direct conversion of photons into electricity.

    http://www.sifferkoll.se/sifferkoll/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Rossi_et_al_v_Darden_et_al__flsdce-16-21199__0001.2.pdf

    • Rheulan

      I read that! Maybe it’s the IP that covers the e-cat x quark!

  • Mike Henderson

    1MW x 24 hours would require more than 1500 gallons of fossil fuel per day. Rossi would have to be pedaling pretty hard to cheat on that test.

  • US_Citizen71
  • sam

    If the report means success would there
    not be a pile of money to be made.
    If so would you not bend over backwards
    to agree somehow.
    One of them or both must be getting greedy

  • sam

    If the report means success would there
    not be a pile of money to be made.
    If so would you not bend over backwards
    to agree somehow.
    One of them or both must be getting greedy

  • Andrew

    Sounds like BLP…..

    • SG

      Can you expound on your thought? Are you suggesting that IH is an investor in BLP and is running with that tech instead?

      • Andrew

        Not at all. Just saying that their “h2o” fuel that creates light and is harnessed by PV cells sound eerily similar to the Ecat creating photons and converting it to electricity(assuming using PV)

        • SG

          Yes, I’ve wondered the same. I don’t think Mr. Rossi has stated that he uses PVs, but seems like a possibility.

  • Andrew

    Sounds like BLP…..

    • Observer

      Yes, it does doesn’t it? A convergence I suspect. And now, a great race. Here we go folks.

    • SG

      Can you expound on your thought? Are you suggesting that IH is an investor in BLP and is running with that tech instead?

      • Andrew

        Not at all. Just saying that their “h2o” fuel that creates light and is harnessed by PV cells sound eerily similar to the Ecat creating photons and converting it to electricity(assuming using PV)

        • SG

          Yes, I’ve wondered the same. I don’t think Mr. Rossi has stated that he uses PVs, but seems like a possibility.

    • Dms

      The only thing that makes sense is IH will claim it does not work. And this independent entity is not independent They have the money. It is a real possibility Rossi is lying

      • Andrew

        Its also a real possibility that Rossi is telling the truth and Darren et al are trying to steal his ip, after all Darden “doesn’t care who brings it to market first, just as long as it gets there”

        • Andrew

          Damn auto correct

      • SG

        No, that doesn’t make sense, at least to me. IH is pursuing their own IP for their improved version of the e-Cat. Companies don’t go to the expense of preparing and filing patents for things they think don’t work.

      • kdk

        They’d better have some evidence contrary to what the ERV they agreed on has, if they want to win that argument.

  • Andrew

    It clearly states that any improvements(paraphrasing) will be within the scope of the Ecat ip and all rights to use it as per the licence agreement shall remain with IH.

  • Andrew

    That paragraph is just stating that IH has access to any future improvements under this licence agreement without having to pay more.

  • Mike Henderson

    The case was assigned to a 79 year old senior judge, James Lawrence King. The courthouse is named in his honor.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Lawrence_King

    • Ged

      Interesting, a very conservative sounding judge; also rather famous it seems, for a judge. Hard to say which way he would lean in this though.

      • LilyLover

        He’d lean towards Rossi.
        Cherokkee’s masters will appeal at progressively higher levels until they realize that the World has changed by virtue of internet and no matter what they do, E-CatX enabled gadgets are inevitable within 2 years.

  • Mike Henderson

    The case was assigned to a 79 year old senior judge, James Lawrence King. The courthouse is named in his honor.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Lawrence_King

    • Ged

      Interesting, a very conservative sounding judge; also rather famous it seems, for a judge. Hard to say which way he would lean in this though.

      • LilyLover

        He’d lean towards Rossi.
        Cherokkee’s masters will appeal at progressively higher levels until they realize that the World has changed by virtue of internet and no matter what they do, E-CatX enabled gadgets are inevitable within 2 years.

  • Andrew

    Line 20. …..if such rights are not owned by Leonardo……

  • Matt Sevrens

    I have never thought Rossi was a scammer more than I did when reading this bullshit.

    • Ged

      Well, he’s made a fatal mistake, if so.

  • Matt Sevrens

    I have never thought Rossi was a scammer more than I did when reading this bullshit.

    • Ged

      Well, he’s made a fatal mistake, if so.

  • SG

    No, that doesn’t make sense, at least to me. IH is pursuing their own IP for their improved version of the e-Cat. Companies don’t go to the expense of preparing and filing patents for things they think don’t work.

  • kdk

    They’d better have some evidence contrary to what the ERV they agreed on has, if they want to win that argument.

  • James Rice

    For comparison, fuel costs for fossil fuel power plants in 2014 were $29/MWhr: http://www.eia.gov/electricity/annual/html/epa_08_04.html

  • Gerard McEk

    It is clear that AR wants to go on full speed and IH is holding him up and refusing payment. Question is what arguments IH uses. I speculate that they will claim that AR has broken NDA. I think AR needs another investor. When money plays a role fights become dirty. Maybe crowd funding is the answer for AR?

  • Gerard McEk

    It is clear that AR wants to go on full speed and IH is holding him up and refusing payment. Question is what arguments IH uses. I speculate that they will claim that AR has broken NDA. I think AR needs another investor. When money plays a role fights become dirty. Maybe crowd funding is the answer for AR?

    • kdk

      They’ve already paid him $11.5 million.

  • Brokeeper

    I’m certainly not a lawyer, however, after reading the signed
    agreement it appears at first glance Andrea Rossi is holding the high hand
    after a very successful ERV report. This said, there obviously is more to this drama

  • Brokeeper

    I’m certainly not a lawyer, however, after reading the signed license
    agreement it appears at first glance Andrea Rossi is holding the high hand after a very successful ERV report. This said, there is probably much more to this ongoing drama.

  • Bayani

    According to section 3(c) of the licence agreement, IH will pay Rossi when the Guaranteed performance has been achieved within five days folllowing the 350 days of operation. On March 29, the ERV report showed. So counting from March 29 to April 5 (the day the civil complaint is filed) that’s 5 business days.

    Is this just coincidence that a civil complaint is filed immediately after 5 days? I was hoping it would take a lot of time to write a complain.

    Also, According to section 5 of the licence agreement, Guaranteed performance will not be deemed achieved unless written confirmation is received by the company (IH) and at the end it says if the guaranteed is not achieved, IH shall not be required to pay. Am I to understand that IH dont have to pay Rossi as long as IH doesn’t confirmed that the Guaranteed performance is achieved? I’m saying IH still has the the decision whether Guaranteed performance is achieved or not …. regardless of what ERV reported.

    In this case, I think IH made a decision that the Guaranteed performance is not achieved eventhough the ERV report was positive.

    • Anon2012_2014

      There could be a sufficient disagreement in the ERVs method so as to invalidate the ERVs findings of COP >6; or there could be periods of time where the COP was reached but the total power output was less because some modules had failed. If I read contract correctly, COP of 4 to 6 results in reduced payoff, COP <4 results in zero payoff.

      All this will be determined from IH's standpoint when the answer to the complaint is served in district court within 21 days; i.e. by April 26th. Standby for those results.

      I highly suspect that whatever was validated has no commercially useful value to Industrial Heat such that not paying $89 million, even if owed under a literal interpretation of the contract; was both a smart and prudent measure by Industrial Heat. It may be that the ECAT produces energy, but that the engineering is not a commercial unit, but more proof of theory that IH thinks will take Rossi or themselves 5 to 10 years to work towards a deliverable heating plant.

      The only good thing about this litigation is that when one party has wholly unreasonable demands in a negotiation (seems to be Rossi, but could be IH), bringing a judge in tends to force the unreasonable party to work on a negotiated settlement rather than talk and demand crazy. If we (as a planet) are lucky, Rossi and IH will work it out in the next few months; hopefully while giving us the ERVs report as part of the legal proceedings.

      No longer will it be in the interest of IH or Rossi to hide the ERV report for competitive purposes as there is going to be a shortage of funds unless this truth is exposed to the light of examination.

  • Bayani

    According to section 3(c) of the licence agreement, IH will pay Rossi when the Guaranteed performance has been achieved within five days folllowing the 350 days of operation. On March 29, the ERV report showed. So counting from March 29 to April 5 (the day the civil complaint is filed) that’s 5 business days.

    Is this just coincidence that a civil complaint is filed immediately after 5 days? I was hoping it would take a lot of time to write a complain.

    Also, According to section 5 of the licence agreement, Guaranteed performance will not be deemed achieved unless written confirmation is received by the company (IH) and at the end it says if the guaranteed is not achieved, IH shall not be required to pay. Am I to understand that IH dont have to pay Rossi as long as IH doesn’t confirmed that the Guaranteed performance is achieved? I’m saying IH still has the the decision whether Guaranteed performance is achieved or not …. regardless of what ERV reported.

    In this case, I think IH made a decision that the Guaranteed performance is not achieved eventhough the ERV report was positive.

    • Anon2012_2014

      There could be a sufficient disagreement in the ERVs method so as to invalidate the ERVs findings of COP >6; or there could be periods of time where the COP was reached but the total power output was less because some modules had failed. If I read contract correctly, COP of 4 to 6 results in reduced payoff, COP <4 results in zero payoff.

      All this will be determined from IH's standpoint when the answer to the complaint is served in district court within 21 days; i.e. by April 26th. Standby for those results.

      I highly suspect that whatever was validated has no commercially useful value to Industrial Heat such that not paying $89 million, even if owed under a literal interpretation of the contract; was both a smart and prudent measure by Industrial Heat. It may be that the ECAT produces energy, but that the engineering is not a commercial unit, but more proof of theory that IH thinks will take Rossi or themselves 5 to 10 years to work towards a deliverable heating plant.

      The only good thing about this litigation is that when one party has wholly unreasonable demands in a negotiation (seems to be Rossi, but could be IH), bringing a judge in tends to force the unreasonable party to work on a negotiated settlement rather than talk and demand crazy. If we (as a planet) are lucky, Rossi and IH will work it out in the next few months; hopefully while giving us the ERVs report as part of the legal proceedings.

      No longer will it be in the interest of IH or Rossi to hide the ERV report for competitive purposes as there is going to be a shortage of funds unless this truth is exposed to the light of examination.

  • Robert Munson

    A client of mine who has seen first hand blp and a few others says that they will not pay for a product that will be made useless because of the x-cat. He goes on to say they will outlast him in court wear him down and sooner or later he will give in. He tells me IH has a good case in court if they can prove that they now have a usless product that is not worth the 89 mil. Looks like Rossi has developed his way right out of his $$.

    • Bob Greenyer

      But IH would have the license to the the X-Cat if they paid the 89m

      • Winebuff67

        Obviously they think they have the IP without paying it. Rossi’s blog will hurt him with some claims made by IH.

      • SG

        Correct. All of Mr. Rossi’s and Leonardo’s improvements are captured in the original license according to the express terms of the agreement. Mr. Rossi also stated as much on his forum.

    • Andreas Moraitis

      Rossi said that IH’s license includes also the new versions of the E-Cat, and the contract seems to confirm that (see § 13.4 of the license agreement). I think it is more likely that they simply have not been able to raise enough money. Nr. 43 in Document 1 could be interpreted that way. Of course, it is also imaginable that they question the report. But in this case they would have to provide evidence that something is wrong with it.

      • Guest

        If the report was ironclad then I guarantee that after 2 phone calls they’d have the funds ready to wire…

        These are well connected folks who fund raise and invest for a living. It’s illogical to assert that both the performance claim is accurate but they were unable to raise the funds.

        $89M sounds like a lot (and it is), but in the grand scheme of this thing working as promised? peanuts.

        • Andreas Moraitis

          You may be right, but apparently Rossi does not appreciate delays in payments. Such a delay has allegedly been the reason for the sudden divorce with Defkalion some years ago. Maybe he expected to be paid immediately after the report had been delivered. But admittedly, that’s only speculation.

  • Winebuff67

    Companies usually work with other companies their own size to avoid getting caught in a drawn out court battle that only the richer one can survive

  • we-cat

    I am very curious to see Rossi’s employment contract. Perhaps IH tricked him by employing him and can state that the IP around new inventions belong to them.

    JB

  • we-cat

    I am very curious to see Rossi’s employment contract. Perhaps IH tricked him by employing him and can state that the IP around new inventions belongs to them.

    JB

  • Guest

    Oh, another detail from section 10 (page 6) of the license agreement… (“the Company” defined in document as referring to IH).

    “Upon the request of the Company, Leonardo and Rossi shall assign to the Company the Licensed Patents”

    If IH can request Leonardo/AR to assign them all patents, then how does AR realistically prove IP theft? The contract literally appears to indicate that the IP is IH’s for the asking per the contract…

    Also, a follow-up reading of section 13.4 reveals that enhancements/improvements/alterations INCLUDING derivatives of the E-Cat IP made by IH, sub-licensees, OR AFFILIATES is the property of IH. So even if IH has invested in Rossi’s former competition and brought them in house then wouldn’t they be affiliates of IH and therefore able to legally have access to and make enhancements to the E-Cat IP, which would then be owned by IH?

    More and more this smells like a proactive suit (coupled with Bayani’s comment below about the timing being the exact deadline for IH to pay up) – likely Rossi was about to be served with a suit by IH and beat them to the punch… I think the IP theft allegation is dead in water per above, and this comes down to which contractual obligation was unfulfilled first.

    • Michel Vandenberghe

      1, 2, many technologies…

    • wpj

      Assign means that they have the rights to use those technologies included in the patent; it does not necessarily give them ownership unless you are actually working for that company and it is part of your contact of employment.

  • Michel Vandenberghe

    1, 2, many technologies…

  • LilyLover

    For Rossi, it never was a “game”. It was a matter of vindication and glory. And helping humans.

  • Frank Acland

    Here’s a legal question I’ll throw out — if one or another party to a license agreement does not fulfill its obligation, is the license then void?

    • Anon2012_2014

      Depends on the terms of the contract. Some contracts are void if any one part is not fulfilled. Others have continuing parts, and some have parts that are binding even if other parts are thrown out in court. This contract is many pages. It takes analysis.

  • Frank Acland

    Here’s a legal question I’ll throw out — if one or another party to a license agreement does not fulfill its obligation, is the license then void?

    • Anon2012_2014

      Depends on the terms of the contract. Some contracts are void if any one part is not fulfilled. Others have continuing parts, and some have parts that are binding even if other parts are thrown out in court. This contract is many pages. It takes analysis.

  • James Rice

    What is strange is that this paragraph’s title is, deceptively, “Recordation of License”, meaning it is ostensibly about legally recording the license agreement, not assigning the patents. But it does say that the patents will be assigned to IH, OR if requested by the company, the license agreement will be registered. These two things are not remotely the same. I wonder if this was a tactic by IH to get the patents. But Rossi DID voluntarily assign the US patent to IH,

    • James Rice

      Referring to section 10 of the license agreement.

      • Sanjeev

        “But Rossi DID voluntarily assign the US patent to IH,”
        I interpret it the same (I’m not a legal expert even remotely, so all my personal opinion here).
        Also as commented by “Guest” below, it looks like at least one allegation of Rossi is wrong. IH reserved the rights to file patents. See also section 7.1 last line.

    • SG

      There is no evidence that Mr. Rossi voluntarily *assigned* anything to IH. Mr. Rossi and Leonardo have only licensed their technology to IH. The patent(s) filed by IH probably were filed without Mr. Rossi’s signatures. It happens.

  • LuFong

    I don’t think the legal issues here is related to performance of the E-Cat. The issue is with the IP with the payment being held up because there is a lawsuit pending over the IP. IH doesn’t want to pay the money owed ($89M) because if they lose the IP battle they would have to get the money back from Rossi (since Rossi would probably claim back the licenses–see below) and that could take time. If they win the IP battle then they will pay Rossi, no real harm done given what they have.

    For the IP issue, either they did in fact misappropriate the IP but they may feel they have a chance in court with it if Rossi is wrong. On the other hand, Rossi’s IP is now at a COP of 50+ and with the E-Cat Quark/X it is not only higher in COP but directly produces electricity and light and probably worth a lot more. IH holds the rights to this in their territories as per the license agreement. Rossi might want it back given this and so he is suing them for breach using misappropriation of IP.

    The bottom line for me is that this strengthens the case that Rossi’s E-Cat works and works quite well. Of course we’ll have to wait for IH to respond and see what they say but I think they are basically withholding the money because they knew they were being sued for the IP.

    • Sanjeev

      I was going to write the same. After studying the license agreement, it looks like IH is already convinced that the E-Cat (as a tech) operated convincingly, and that’s why they paid the cost of IP ($10m).
      It appears from section 3.2(c) that the payment can be held if IH thinks that the E-Cat IP infringes on a third party patent (see item (ii)). In this case they pay only $44.5m. The third party can be Piantelli whos patent was challenged by Rossi earlier.
      They should have paid 50% anyway, so there can be other complications.

      • LuFong

        I read the licensing agreement very quickly there are nuances that could be used such as what you point out. I’ll look at that in more detail tomorrow.

        But also Rossi could just want the licenses back and is using the lawsuit to try to do so. The E-Cat IP is much more valueble now then it was when the agreement is signed. Regardless, I’m hoping Rossi has the funding and can still proceed in the non-IH held territories.

        • Sanjeev

          There is a phrase there “at the election of the Company”….
          So it looks like they have elected to not to pay even 50% of the remaining.

          The clause is interesting because it states that they will pay royalties to Rossi till the amount reaches $1billion. That is, in case the E-Cat IP infringes any other. So if this is the reason for non-payment, then probably IH thinks that they may not be able to sell any products.

  • Sanjeev

    Thanks to all who provided the documents and made them public. So many things that were in dark are now coming to light. As expected, the report is positive for the longer 350 day test. It was positive for the shorter 24 hr test too (also by Penon), which resulted in payment of $10m to Rossi and transfer of IP (including the catalyst formula) to IH. Now the final payment is held due to some issue, which can be because either IH is not happy with the report or some other condition of License agreement is not being fulfilled.

    The customer is JM Chemical Products Inc of Florida (this is not a news, it was suspected long ago), who is not a big or well known entity as far as I know. However, the test is a matter between IH and Rossi, not very connected to the customer. If IH pays the remaining amount, that will be a big evidence. The report, ERV or the customer do not matter much relatively.

    Sadly, the suit means it will be a long delay regardless of the truth of the plant.
    Edit : test duration

    • Anon2012_2014

      Documents: Pacer documents cost 10 cents a page so that the court can recover costs. Those who provided you with docs saved you $7. I agree it should be free, but it is truly next to nothing compared to the value in the papers, and if your curious you can get your own Pacer account.

      • Sanjeev

        Thanks Anon. I’d surely do that if I need something desperately.

    • Frank Acland

      Sanjeev, I believe I read in one of the documents revealed today that the first validation test which Fabio Penon refereed was only 24 hours long.

      • Sanjeev

        Yes, that’s right. 24 hour test to be conducted within 120 days.

    • Mats002

      Yes thanks for bringing forward the documents! I am not convinced that the one man ERV is matter less. What do we know about this Penon? Why is he trustworthy?

      • Sanjeev

        Honestly, we, the bystanders, have no idea who Penon is, so can’t comment.
        However, it looks like he was appointed with the consent of IH, who must have done their checks. And IH was convinced of the E-Cat tested by Penon in 24 hour test and immediately paid $10m to get the IP.

        Personally, I’d have preferred a well known agency or university etc. But the matter is between IH and Penon, and if IH is happy with him , no issues.

    • Andreas Moraitis

      „Sadly, the suit means it will be a long delay regardless of the truth of the plant.“

      Fortunately, there is still HydroFusion as a ‘confirmed’ licensee. So maybe the ball will start rolling in due time, just in another place.

      • Sanjeev

        HF/Rossi will need some funds before it can be done.
        Probably he was relying on the $89m, and that’s why he always said that he will start the mass production only after the report comes out to be positive. It was not the results, it was the money he was waiting for.

        • Andreas Moraitis

          Right. Hopefully, Rossi/Leonardo did not get into debt in anticipation of the payment. That could end in a very sad way if he would not find new investors soon.

          • SG

            I suspect Mr. Rossi’s immediate focus has shifted to Europe and his other licensees. He will fight this battle with IH in the background. Yes, a lot to take on for anyone, but Mr. Rossi has been through the refiners fire numerous times already, and can probably handle it.

    • HHiram

      There are no significant records and there is no website for J.M Chemical Products Inc. It appears to be a shell company of some kind that was founded in 2014. Henry Johnson is listed as Agent and President (this same person has connections to dozens of other similar companies). There are listings with the same telephone number under different names: J and C Chemical Products, J.M. Products Corp, and so on.

      Unfortunately, this looks extremely shady and suspicious to me. If Rossi does have a legitimate customer, they seem to be hiding behind a dummy company. That does not inspire any confidence or credibility. Hopefully we will learn more as the lawsuit proceeds.

    • Hhiram

      My earlier reply didn’t post for some reason.

      I looked up JM Chemical Products. It looks like a shell company – only exists for 2 years, shares phone number with several other companies with similar names, shares “agent” and “president” (Henry Johnson) with several other companies, etc.

      Does anyone have any more information on this company?

  • Competition boosts innovation.

    So we have IH and LC now separated with the same IP.

    Let the games begin!

  • Competition boosts innovation and the market.

    So we have IH and LC now separated with the same IP (competition).

    Let the games begin!

  • Sanjeev

    Another allegation against IH that I think (limited understanding) is wrong is transfer of IP to others. Section 1 clearly says that IH can sub-license their IP to any party they choose (probably in their territory). This should include the transfer of know-how to manufacture products.

    • Obvious

      It seems to me that the IH patent applications may have divulged more IP than was allowed, unless Leonardo consented. The schematics and descriptions were quite detailed and informative.

  • Sanjeev

    Another allegation against IH that I think (limited understanding) is wrong is transfer of IP to others. Section 1 clearly says that IH can sub-license their IP to any party they choose (probably in their territory). This should include the transfer of know-how to manufacture products.

    • Obvious

      It seems to me that the IH patent applications may have divulged more IP than was allowed, unless Leonardo consented. The schematics and descriptions were quite detailed and informative.

  • Hi guys!

    Can someone maybe summarize the key facts of this release?
    I guess this is something which could be “accepted” by the wikipedia “moderators”.
    We could add it to several languages of LENR articles at wikipedia.

    • Oystein Lande

      After reading the Court document complaint, I would not be surprised If Rossi wins….

      But of course, it may not be the full story…

  • Barbierir

    After a night sleep I think it’s not a catastrophe as the first impression. Some observations:
    -It’s mainly about IP infringements, the missing payment is just the inevitable result of such issues.
    -We got to know more informations about Rossi/IH dealings than in the previous 3 years combined
    -We know the customer’s name
    -The lawsuit will certainly require the publication of the ERV report
    -IH will have to say something official about the ecat technology
    -You don’t fight for IP over something that doesn’t work
    -A trial about this will certainly get the attention of some media
    -Nothing prevents commercialization in the world area that aren’t under IH license (but it remains to see if Rossi has money for the factory, maybe the 89$ were needed for that)

    • wpj

      What about the Swedish (?) energy consortium paying for the Lugano boys; they must have deep pockets to invest in Hydrofusion

      • Barbierir

        Let’s hope so, I haven’t the slightest idea of how much it costs to put up a robotized factory for mass ecat production

      • Dr. Mike

        It’s great to hear that the 1MW plant operated at a COP of 50 or more! I can’t wait to see the report to see how the measurements were made for the input power and the output heat.
        As for the legal issues- it appears that Rossi is now due the $89M! The IP issues seem to be covered in section 13.4 of the Agreement. The way I read this section, IH gets the rights to use any of Rossi’s existing and new IP during the period of the Agreement and IH also gets the right to any IP that they develop independently during the period of the Agreement. Did IH develop new IP on their own in the patents they filed?

        • Obvious

          I was just assessing that. The IH filings seem to divulge detailed information on various Rossi devices. It is uncertain if the Lugano device was entirely an IH design or not, but Rossi has said in the past that IH made it.

          • Dr. Mike

            If IH made improvements to a design given to them by Rossi, it seems that they would have rights to those improvements, but not rights to anything provided by Rossi. I agree with you that IH probably should not have rights to anything until they pay the full amount in the Agreement. I think that this is the main point of Rossi’s lawsuit. Another problem is that Rossi may have provided IH with some proprietary information that was not yet protected by a patent disclosure. IH should not have tried to patent any of this information as their own. This issue will probably have to be settled in court. An equitable solution might be co- ownership of any disputed patent issued to IH (after Rossi is paid the balance due in the Agreement).

        • Obvious

          Another area that is possibly trouble for IH is that thier licence is possibly not valid until they pay the entire total $100,500,000. So the Independent IP of IH may not have come into effect yet.

          • Sanjeev

            Does it say so in the agreement?

          • Obvious

            (3.1)
            “The total price for the grant of the License.and the purchase of the plant is one Hundred Million Five Hundred Thousand Dollars ($ 100,500,000).”

            They seem to have been given at least a provisional license (until all conditions are satisfied), so it is a bit of a grey area.

          • Sanjeev

            3.2(b) clears some greyness. The underlined part. “License will commence after $10m is paid.” (also 1.1).
            Perhaps this is the mistake Rossi or his lawyers made.

        • DrD

          Sad news but it makes interesting reading and explains much.
          If only we could support him but any help I could offer wouldn’tbe of any value.

      • SG

        There are probably other deep-pocketed potential licensees not currently visible to us. And after the successful ERV, the value of the e-Cat has jumped considerably. Somehow I don’t think Mr. Rossi and Leonardo are going to have any difficulty raising additional funds to build out the factory.

  • Hi guys!

    Can someone maybe summarize the key facts of this release?
    I guess this is something which could be “accepted” by the wikipedia “moderators”.
    We could add it to several languages of LENR articles at wikipedia.

  • Barbierir

    After a night sleep I think it’s not a catastrophe as the first impression. Some observations:
    -It’s mainly about IP infringements, the missing payment is just the inevitable result of such issues.
    -We got to know more informations about Rossi/IH dealings than in the previous 3 years combined
    -We know the customer’s name
    -The lawsuit will certainly require the publication of the ERV report
    -IH will have to say something official about the ecat technology
    -You don’t fight for IP over something that doesn’t work
    -A trial about this will certainly get the attention of some media
    -Nothing prevents commercialization in the world area that aren’t under IH license (but it remains to see if Rossi has money for the factory, maybe the 89$ were needed for that)

    • wpj

      What about the Swedish (?) energy consortium paying for the Lugano boys; they must have deep pockets to invest in Hydrofusion

      • Barbierir

        Let’s hope so, I haven’t the slightest idea of how much it costs to put up a robotized factory for mass ecat production

      • SG

        There are probably other deep-pocketed potential licensees not currently visible to us. And after the successful ERV, the value of the e-Cat has jumped considerably. Somehow I don’t think Mr. Rossi and Leonardo are going to have any difficulty raising additional funds to build out the factory.

  • Barbierir

    probably it was already posted but this is Penon curriculum vitae:
    http://www.cobraf.com/forum/immagini/R_123620809_1.pdf

  • Dr. Mike

    It’s great to hear that the 1MW plant operated at a COP of 50 or more! I can’t wait to see the report to see how the measurements were made for the input power and the output heat.
    As for the legal issues- it appears that Rossi is now due the $89M! The IP issues seem to be covered in section 13.4 of the Agreement. The way I read this section, IH gets the rights to use any of Rossi’s existing and new IP during the period of the Agreement and IH also gets the right to any IP that they develop independently during the period of the Agreement. Did IH develop new IP on their own in the patents they filed?

    • Obvious

      I was just assessing that. The IH filings seem to divulge detailed information on various Rossi devices. It is uncertain if the Lugano device was entirely an IH design or not, but Rossi has said in the past that IH made it.

      • Dr. Mike

        If IH made improvements to a design given to them by Rossi, it seems that they would have rights to those improvements, but not rights to anything provided by Rossi. I agree with you that IH probably should not have rights to anything until they pay the full amount in the Agreement. I think that this is the main point of Rossi’s lawsuit. Another problem is that Rossi may have provided IH with some proprietary information that was not yet protected by a patent disclosure. IH should not have tried to patent any of this information as their own. This issue will probably have to be settled in court. An equitable solution might be co- ownership of any disputed patent issued to IH (after Rossi is paid the balance due in the Agreement).

    • Obvious

      Another area that is possibly trouble for IH is that thier licence is possibly not valid until they pay the entire total $100,500,000. So the Independent IP of IH may not have come into effect yet.

      • Sanjeev

        Does it say so in the agreement?

        • Obvious

          (3.1)
          “The total price for the grant of the License.and the purchase of the plant is one Hundred Million Five Hundred Thousand Dollars ($ 100,500,000).”

          They seem to have been given at least a provisional license (until all conditions are satisfied), so it is a bit of a grey area.

          • Sanjeev

            3.2(b) clears some greyness. The underlined part. “License will commence after $10m is paid.” (also 1.1).
            Perhaps this is the mistake Rossi or his lawyers made.

  • Jeff

    My gas boiler has probably got another 3 years service left, I wanted to replace it with an ecat! What’s the status of the LENR experimenters, when will we have instructions to build one of these things? Thousands of self built LENR domestic heaters won’t be ignored by the media/energy companies.

    • cashmemorz

      Self built will be the way to go until the court case is settled. Probably 5 years or more.

    • cashmemorz

      Self built will be the way to go until the court case is settled. Probably 5 years or more.

  • Mike403

    I don’t know who Scott Jantz is, but his ‘Posting’ on Facebook may just ‘hit the spot’ for Rossi (if reworded so as to not appear to be attacking Rossi) :

    “To Andrea Rossi,
    You are unfortunately considered a fraud not only by nearly all the scientific community, journalists and now by your business partner who you are suing for nonpayment of $100 million.
    It is pretty easy to see how this lawsuit will go: A scientifically illiterate Florida jury who has never heard of LENR and only knows of cold fusion as something that was disproven in the 90s will hear testimony from a parade of physicists who all will claim LENR is impossible. This ends predictably with IH and Darden winning and probably having grounds for a counter suit against you.
    You can change this outcome. Publish an exact recipe for LENR using Ni, H, LiAlH4 and any fuel preparations or other stimulation needed for a high and repeatable COP. Do this in an easy to understand and exacting manner that anyone with access to a decent lab and some chemistry and nuclear safety training, can replicate your results. Groups such as SKINR and MFMP along with other DIY groups will gladly confirm your results in a public manner. By the time the lawsuit comes to trial the publicity of the “Rossi Effect” will be everywhere and common knowledge to your jury. Your IP is secured by your patents, perhaps some DIY-ers may build units to heat their homes but the major players: GE, Siemens etc. will have to license from you. Don’t let this trial be the end of the LENR field and your reputation the world is literally at stake.

    I hope Scott will forgive me for dragging his posting onto e-cat world, but I wonder if this could br re-posted onto JONP to see how Rossi reacts at this time?

    • SG

      Mr. Jantz does have a point. Once your patent applications are on file, there is really no reason to hold back on building products or otherwise making the information public. If there is uptake of the ideas in the marketplace, it just creates more potential targets for IP infringement, which increases the value of the IP.

      • Billy Jackson

        Rossi has always been paranoid about someone stealing his IP. the man see’s this as a away to mega riches beyond most peoples dreams.. and if successful is likely right. while we wait to hear IH’s version of events i can tell you so far that if the story played out like written then this is Rossi’s worst fears come to life.. a big company using shell games and disingenuous practices to fleece him of his idea leaving him with nothing in the end.

        This plea to release the information will fall on deaf ears.. rossi wants to make money. .the kind of money that we only dream of having.. this is his right as the inventor. WE want to see the e-cat released.. but i bet this sets things back for years if not outright ties it up in court freezing further tests and advances. We can but hope and pray for a speedy and peaceful solution.. but if reading that pdf is even half truthful .. then they were intending to steal this technology from the start…

    • cashmemorz

      Exactly a tactic that anti LENR group would use to delay LENR by acting as if for the good of all. And Rossi is smart enough to see it for what it is and simply ignores such tactics.

  • Mike403

    I don’t know who Scott Jantz is, but his ‘Posting’ on Facebook may just ‘hit the spot’ for Rossi (if reworded so as to not appear to be attacking Rossi) :

    “To Andrea Rossi,
    You are unfortunately considered a fraud not only by nearly all the scientific community, journalists and now by your business partner who you are suing for nonpayment of $100 million.
    It is pretty easy to see how this lawsuit will go: A scientifically illiterate Florida jury who has never heard of LENR and only knows of cold fusion as something that was disproven in the 90s will hear testimony from a parade of physicists who all will claim LENR is impossible. This ends predictably with IH and Darden winning and probably having grounds for a counter suit against you.
    You can change this outcome. Publish an exact recipe for LENR using Ni, H, LiAlH4 and any fuel preparations or other stimulation needed for a high and repeatable COP. Do this in an easy to understand and exacting manner that anyone with access to a decent lab and some chemistry and nuclear safety training, can replicate your results. Groups such as SKINR and MFMP along with other DIY groups will gladly confirm your results in a public manner. By the time the lawsuit comes to trial the publicity of the “Rossi Effect” will be everywhere and common knowledge to your jury. Your IP is secured by your patents, perhaps some DIY-ers may build units to heat their homes but the major players: GE, Siemens etc. will have to license from you. Don’t let this trial be the end of the LENR field and your reputation the world is literally at stake.

    I hope Scott will forgive me for dragging his posting onto e-cat world, but I wonder if this could br re-posted onto JONP to see how Rossi reacts at this time?

    • SG

      Mr. Jantz does have a point. Once your patent applications are on file, there is really no reason to hold back on building products or otherwise making the information public. If there is uptake of the ideas in the marketplace, it just creates more potential targets for IP infringement, which increases the value of the IP.

      • Billy Jackson

        Rossi has always been paranoid about someone stealing his IP. the man see’s this as a away to mega riches beyond most peoples dreams.. and if successful is likely right. while we wait to hear IH’s version of events i can tell you so far that if the story played out like written then this is Rossi’s worst fears come to life.. a big company using shell games and disingenuous practices to fleece him of his idea leaving him with nothing in the end.

        This plea to release the information will fall on deaf ears.. rossi wants to make money. .the kind of money that we only dream of having.. this is his right as the inventor. WE want to see the e-cat released.. but i bet this sets things back for years if not outright ties it up in court freezing further tests and advances. We can but hope and pray for a speedy and peaceful solution.. but if reading that pdf is even half truthful .. then they were intending to steal this technology from the start…

    • cashmemorz

      Exactly a tactic that anti LENR group would use to delay LENR by acting as if for the good of all. And Rossi is smart enough to see it for what it is and simply ignores such tactics.

    • cashmemorz

      Exactly a tactic that anti LENR group would use to delay LENR by acting as if for the good of all. And Rossi is smart enough to see it for what it is and simply ignores such tactics.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    Anyone who has been involved in legal fights like this will realize IH will come back with all kinds of legal misdirection, legal maneuvering, anything to confuse the issues. It is my opinion it is important for us who believe in LENR to remember IH, Darden and all their companies have invented/created nothing.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    Anyone who has been involved in legal fights like this will realize IH will come back with all kinds of legal misdirection, legal maneuvering, anything to confuse the issues. It is my opinion it is important for us who believe in LENR to remember IH, Darden and all their companies have invented/created nothing.

  • wpj

    Where’s Mats Lewan………………………..?

  • wpj

    Where’s Mats Lewan………………………..?

    • Rip Kirbyian

      He is on twitter.

  • Sanjeev

    Interesting info on page 20, exhibit A:
    6- USA patent pending for additives and catalyzers in process and apparatus
    8- USA patent pending for direct conversion of photons into electric energy

    #6 means that the catalyst will be revealed ultimately. Does anyone know if such patent is filed and is published?

    #8 is strange because in 2012 (date of agreement), there was no talk of light to electricity conversion regarding the ECat.

    • Ecco

      Perhaps a more refined version of this:
      https://patentscope.wipo.int/search/docservicepdf_pct/id00000032278621/PDOC/WO2016018851.pdf

      […] This invention is different from the former patents of the same inventor because the nature of the catalyzer is disclosed. […]

      As an aside, I’m wondering if “3-6 bars” is actually an intentional typo actually signifying “E-6 bars”, i.e 1E-6 bars => 10 ^ (-6) bars.

      • Sanjeev

        LAH is already a known additive. Perhaps everyone missed the anode and cathode to accelerate the electrons to 100KeV !
        This high voltage bias is perhaps the missing “catalyst” that no one has tried yet including MFMP.

        • Ecco

          To accelerate the electrons to 100 keV a vacuum would be normally needed. I don’t know if one could in practice take advantage of field effect enhancements with nanotechnology for this to work at a much higher pressures, but as this is clearly a critical detail it makes sense that Rossi would want to misdirect the public with clever “typos” in public provisional patents.

          For #8, have a look at this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_rectenna

          • Sanjeev

            Yes, it seems critical. DGT had such an arrangement. Its possible that initially 3-6 bars are needed but once the H2 is absorbed, it almost vacuum there and the HV electric field is turned on.
            The stuff about neutrons getting released doesn’t make sense, but photons at 50-100keV is possible as MFMP has seen (and hopefully will see again).
            The patent application is itself very strange, as if written in a few minutes. The titles are different on cover and inside.

        • Andreas Moraitis

          It has been noticed, but not discussed in greater detail. I suggested a while ago that MFMP could test their fuel mixture in Brian Ahern’s “sparky cell”. This should not be too expensive since the hardware already exists.

          • Sanjeev

            Its surely doable. I wonder why people ignored the HV bias part completely till now.

          • As they have ignored all other possible variable ‘drivers’ including oscillating EM fields, pulsed DC, AC, microwaves, RF etc. etc. while the clues that one or another of these are essential are scattered all over the place.

        • lucasnw

          At these temperatures, ~1500c, isn’t lithium metal gaseous?

        • Josh G

          Here are two thoughts on that:

          Section 13.2 is a ‘Right of First Offer.’ Rossi doesn’t have full rights outside of IH territory. Instead, if he wants to license, manufacture or distribute the e-cat outside of IH’s territory, he first has to give IH the opportunity to make him an offer. If he declines that offer, he the agreement he has to sign with the other party has to be for 90% of the money IH offered, and ‘no less favorable.’

          So imagine the following scenario: Rossi wants to start production in, say, Sweden. But first he has to give IH the chance to make him an offer. So they offer him some crazy amount. Now Rossi knows that IH is not going to do anything with it if he gives them the license to manufacture in Sweden. But at the same time, he can’t find anybody willing to match IH’s crazy offer. So no distribution goes forward. (Though I guess he could accept their offer and just get rich.)

          Section 13.4: This clause says that any advancements Rossi makes to e-cat are part of IH’s license. But here is what’s interesting: the second half of the paragraph says that any advancements that IH makes belong to IH. So it seems this is the clause where the meat of their fight is going to be: which part of the advancements belong to Rossi and which to IH? Also, it might be that Rossi hasn’t shared with them the secrets of the E-cat X, and they might be trying to squeeze that out of him by withholding payment. In any case, it seems like Darden has completely lost Rossi’s trust.

          • “, if he wants to license, manufacture or distribute the e-cat outside of IH’s territory, he first has to give IH the opportunity to make him an offer. If he declines that offer, he the agreement he has to sign with the other party has to be for 90% of the money IH offered, and ‘no less favorable.'”

            This kind of agreement make me think of LENR-Cities ecosystem logic.

            When you are member of an ecosystem, you have to allow other members to access to your technology, not for free of course, but for not more than what you demand to foreigners.

            Don’t treat foreigners better than your family.
            This is win-win, as the one who have to treat the family well, is treated well by the family.

            this is this return that may be missing in IH/Rossi relationship.

            I like this kind of clause, but it have to be reciprocal.

          • Josh G

            Martin Tornberg has some interesting comments over at Mats Lewans’ blog about the need to align incentives and the fact that the IH-Rossi agreement did a terrible job at aligning their incentives: https://animpossibleinvention.com/2016/04/07/andrea-rossi-sues-industrial-heat-for-89m/#comment-4265

    • MasterBlaster7

      Hmmmmm. Interesting. If we go with the theory that the law suit is truly a publicity stunt and an effort to get patent facts on legal record…If patents are not granted…and the Rossi secret sauce is on the record legally from a trial…maybe it will sorta act as a mail box patent…a new form of mail box patent…mail box patents are not accepted by the patent office…but hey…maybe ‘court record patents’ are????

      something for you lawyers out there to think about.

      Oh…mail box patents are a quazi patent when you mail an unopened patent to yourself or someone you trust to get a post office stamp date. The stamp date is supposed to prove that you have the earliest claim to patent material.

  • Sanjeev

    Interesting info on page 20, exhibit A:
    6- USA patent pending for additives and catalyzers in process and apparatus
    8- USA patent pending for direct conversion of photons into electric energy

    #6 means that the catalyst will be revealed ultimately. Does anyone know if such patent is filed and is published?

    #8 is strange because in 2012 (date of agreement), there was no talk of light to electricity conversion regarding the ECat.

    • Ecco

      Perhaps a more refined version of this:
      https://patentscope.wipo.int/search/docservicepdf_pct/id00000032278621/PDOC/WO2016018851.pdf

      […] This invention is different from the former patents of the same inventor because the nature of the catalyzer is disclosed. […]

      As an aside, I’m wondering if “3-6 bars” is actually an intentional typo actually signifying “E-6 bars”, i.e 1E-6 bars => 10 ^ (-6) bars.

      • Sanjeev

        LAH is already a known additive. Perhaps everyone missed the anode and cathode to accelerate the electrons to 100KeV !
        This high voltage bias is perhaps the missing “catalyst” that no one has tried yet including MFMP.

        • Ecco

          To accelerate the electrons to 100 keV a vacuum would be normally needed. I don’t know if one could in practice take advantage of field effect enhancements with nanotechnology for this to work at a much higher pressures, but as this is clearly a critical detail it makes sense that Rossi would want to misdirect the public with clever “typos” in public provisional patents.

          For #8, have a look at this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_rectenna

          • Sanjeev

            Yes, it seems critical. DGT had such an arrangement. Its possible that initially 3-6 bars are needed but once the H2 is absorbed, it almost vacuum there and the HV electric field is turned on.
            The stuff about neutrons getting released doesn’t make sense, but photons at 50-100keV is possible as MFMP has seen (and hopefully will see again).
            The patent application is itself very strange, as if written in a few minutes. The titles are different on cover and inside.

        • Andreas Moraitis

          It has been noticed, but not discussed in greater detail. I suggested a while ago that MFMP could test their fuel mixture in Brian Ahern’s “sparky cell”. This should not be too expensive since the hardware already exists.

          • Sanjeev

            Its surely doable. I wonder why people ignored the HV bias part completely till now.

          • As they have ignored all other possible variable ‘drivers’ including oscillating EM fields, pulsed DC, AC, microwaves, RF etc. etc. while the clues that one or another of these are essential are scattered all over the place.

        • lucasnw

          At these temperatures, ~1500c, isn’t lithium metal gaseous?

    • MasterBlaster7

      Hmmmmm. Interesting. If we go with the theory that the law suit is truly a publicity stunt and an effort to get patent facts on legal record…If patents are not granted…and the Rossi secret sauce is on the record legally from a trial…maybe it will sorta act as a mail box patent…a new form of mail box patent…mail box patents are not accepted by the patent office…but hey…maybe ‘court record patents’ are????

      something for you lawyers out there to think about.

      Oh…mail box patents are a quazi patent when you mail an unopened patent to yourself or someone you trust to get a post office stamp date. The stamp date is supposed to prove that you have the earliest claim to patent material.

  • artefact

    Stremmenos was (is?) licensee for Greece 🙂

  • artefact

    Stremmenos was (is?) licensee for Greece 🙂

  • pg

    “domenico canino
    April 6, 2016 at 3:22 PM
    Dear Andrea,
    here we are, Meucci-Bell once again?
    sad regards
    Andrea Rossi

    April 6, 2016 at 4:07 PM
    Domenico Canino:
    This time the story goes that “Meucci” has the patent, the industry, the product and whomever will try to compete against us will discover what is there under the tip of the iceberg.
    Warm Regards

    A.R.”

    • pg

      I’m assuming that everyone knows that Meucci is the inventor of the telephone.

      • LENR4you

        Maybe not in the US

        • pg

          Ok, that is what the exchange above refers to, as Rossi (the inventor) being Meucci, and IH (who wants to take the credit and make the money) as Bell.

      • BillH

        That may be the view in the US, I doubt it will find much traction in Scotland.
        Bell’s patent is the one that earned all the money. Under Scottish Law the case would be tagged as unproven. The lesson here is don’t die before your fame is established. AR should take note.

    • Alan DeAngelis
    • I would very much like to learn what is “under the tip of the iceberg”. It sounds very much like Rossi is telling us that he is not alone, and believes that he holds all the cards. I hope his ‘other’ partner(s) is more reliable than Cherokee.

      • f sedei

        Greed, like Love, is a many splendored thing to many.

  • Frank Hilton

    Come on Rossi just release the formula to the world, make it opensource. You don’t need to be mega cash rich, you will be rich in fame, your technology will touch everyone especially the poorest in this world.
    Don’t let big business stifle this technology for a generation.

    • Motu

      Unfortunately, there are agreements in place with other licensees. To release the IP would be to injure these parties and open Rossi himself to monumental legal action.

      Oh what a tangled web we weave . . .

    • Jonnyb

      He will get plenty of money from TV appearances etc. Helping others develop their products.

  • georgehants

    Have I ever mentioned what a terrible World capitalism creates with
    millions dying and suffering around the World,, maybe a few of the
    brainwashed masses would like to open their eyes and help find a better
    system
    As I have mentioned before Rossi needs to forget piles of Gold
    and Silver and publish, five years already wasted for nothing but
    money.
    He is old, it is now or never.
    Insane situation.

    • I do not think so. Only bottom-up capitalism can handle a disruptive black swan technological revolution. All other entities will try to preserve their old money and/or powers and aim for status quo, slow progress and try to manage change so that other people pay for it (usually taxpayers). Read NN Taleb “Antifragile” and “BlackSwan” books. He explains it well.

      • Josh G

        I agree with your blog post — I think the fact that IH sat on the 1MW without finding a place to test it smells really fishy, especially in light of Darden’s apparent business acumen and connections. It sure is starting to feel like IH is continuing to suppress the technology or delay its roll out … it’s hard to believe they would cheap out on a mere 100 million given how much money they stand to earn. I would say they got an amazing bargain on their license terms…

        • cashmemorz

          Exactly. Being pro environment is a con game that Darden is pulling. He apparently is doing what the investors want done to slow down development of the E-CAT instead of what the environment needs to have done.

      • The chances are that when the dust settles, we will find ourselves paying for electricity from the same old suppliers at the same old prices, plus a ‘green supplement’ supposedly to ‘help’ with transition costs. As each fossil or nuclear plant becomes uneconomical it will be replaced by a cold fusion plant. We will all feel a warm glow, knowing that our money is going towards saving the planet.

    • Mats002

      I can’t recall you ever said that George, hmm maybe once… 😉

    • stanley davidson

      you dont know your history mr. over 100,million people have been put to death in in the name of communism in the last 100 years and many many more in slaved. suffering under that system far out ways any lack of progress under a free enterprize economy standards of living has gone up in free enterprize zones and falls in communist zones

  • georgehants

    Have I ever mentioned what a terrible World capitalism creates with
    millions dying and suffering around the World,, maybe a few of the
    brainwashed masses would like to open their eyes and help find a better
    system
    As I have mentioned before Rossi needs to forget piles of Gold
    and Silver and publish, five years already wasted for nothing but
    money.
    He is old, it is now or never.
    Insane situation.

    • steph har

      It just needs solid independent proof from MFMP or preferably one university and the rest would follow, he would be able to sit back knowing he’d set the ball rolling and would be recognised as doing so. All this stuff could make him very ill.

    • I do not think so. Only bottom-up capitalism can handle a disruptive black swan technological revolution. All other entities will try to preserve their old money and/or powers and aim for status quo, slow progress and try to manage change so that other people pay for it (usually taxpayers). Read NN Taleb “Antifragile” and “BlackSwan” books. He explains it well.

      • Josh G

        I agree with your blog post — I think the fact that IH sat on the 1MW without finding a place to test it smells really fishy, especially in light of Darden’s apparent business acumen and connections. It sure is starting to feel like IH is continuing to suppress the technology or delay its roll out … it’s hard to believe they would cheap out on a mere 100 million given how much money they stand to earn. I would say they got an amazing bargain on their license terms…

        • cashmemorz

          Exactly. Being pro environment is a con game that Darden is pulling. He apparently is doing what the investors want done to slow down development of the E-CAT instead of what the environment needs to have done.

        • cashmemorz

          Exactly. Being pro environment is a con game that Darden is pulling. He apparently is doing what the investors want done to slow down development of the E-CAT instead of what the environment needs to have done.

      • The chances are that when the dust settles, we will find ourselves paying for electricity from the same old suppliers at the same old prices, plus a ‘green supplement’ supposedly to ‘help’ with transition costs. As each fossil or nuclear plant becomes uneconomical it will be replaced by a cold fusion plant. We will all feel a warm glow, knowing that our money is going towards saving the planet.

    • Mats002

      I can’t recall you ever said that George, hmm maybe once… 😉

    • stanley davidson

      you dont know your history mr. over 100,million people have been put to death in in the name of communism in the last 100 years and many many more in slaved. suffering under that system far out ways any lack of progress under a free enterprize economy standards of living has gone up in free enterprize zones and falls in communist zones

    • BillH

      Only once or twice! Have you managed to change anything yet?

  • Josh G

    Questions:

    1. Who are the competitors that Rossi claims IH shared his IP with?

    2. Does anybody else find it strange that despite Darden’s connections and apparent business acumen, IH was unable to find a place to conduct the 350 day test? It kind of suggests they are deliberately dragging their feet…which is partly what this suit is about, I guess.

    3. I wonder what IH’s investors (e.g., Woodford Capital) think about the suit? Could they put pressure on IH to stop playing games? Or did they put pressure on IH to play these games?

  • Josh G

    Questions:

    1. Who are the competitors that Rossi claims IH shared his IP with?

    2. Does anybody else find it strange that despite Darden’s connections and apparent business acumen, IH was unable to find a place to conduct the 350 day test? It kind of suggests they are deliberately dragging their feet…which is partly what this suit is about, I guess.

    3. I wonder what IH’s investors (e.g., Woodford Capital) think about the suit? Could they put pressure on IH to stop playing games? Or did they put pressure on IH to play these games?

  • bachcole

    Unfortunately, this is one, big, fat “Rossi says”. The only thing I can be certain of here is that Rossi is angry at Darden, Vaughn, and I.H. in general. The reason why he is angry at I.H. is uncertain because what Rossi says about why he is angry is also a “Rossi says”. Hearing something from Penon or I.H. would be very illuminating. Otherwise this is just a large mess of uncertainty other than the fact that they are fighting. I am capable of reading tea leafs in oh so many different ways. And given the fact that this could change in oh so many different directions quickly, I don’t see any point in trying to read the tea leaves.

    • wpj

      No it’s not, it’s “Rossi’s lawyer says”!

      • Steve Swatman

        When you sit with a lawyer the lawyer asks you what is the complaint, and then put your words into legalese.

        • wpj

          It was intended as a joke.

      • bachcole

        Good point, but Rossi’s lawyer would not have said it if Rossi had not told him to say it. The lawyer merely translates Rossi’s intentions into legalese.

        • Ged

          Also, you don’t want to make up stuff for court of law. It doesn’t end well for the one doing the “says” unless they have facts. With the costs of a lawyer and court case, let alone vulnerability to counter suit, Rossi must honestly believe he’s got a strong, solid case.

      • Andrew

        This^^^^ the filing is the filing.

    • Sanjeev

      Why he is angry? Its certain, he did not get the money.
      The real question is why IH didn’t pay and we are all waiting to know that. It will cause big waves.

      • wpj

        He is angry as they got the sauce recipe after paying $11.5m and seem to be exploiting it with others.

        • bachcole

          Other than a total lack of evidence, what leads you to believe this?

          • wpj

            It’s in the documents, which is why they (IH) made the Lugano reactor.

            Clearly, by the time that they had paid $11.5m he trusted them. A mistake for us all…….

            Section 3 (2) (b), underlined

            Also, section 13.1 underlined

          • bachcole

            I will be happy to read “the documents” when you give me a link.

          • wpj

            Errrr, top of the page, second link.

        • Sanjeev

          Well , he shouldn’t have given them everything before full payment. At least not the catalyst.
          Another dilemma is, why were the $89m not in escrow? Why did AR take such a big risk?

          • BillH

            To get the initial $10M, a sum not to be called trivia?

      • bachcole

        Exactly. And everything else is uncertainty.

      • Greedo

        Just shooting in the dark here, but is it possible that this has something to do with the ECatX? Perhaps the dispute is over rights to that tech as IH sees the ECat as “obsolete”, as ridiculous as that sounds. However, Rossi has said as much, and if we are to take him at his word (a huge if, I know), it is conceivable that IH somehow believes that have some part in the ECatX.

        • BillH

          They do, just not the E-Cat X IP.

    • Michael W Wolf

      The contract said, which IH signed. It said Rossi would prove to them in a 24 hours test, It said Rossi would receive ten million dollars. it said IH approved of the ERV, it said IH would provide their own guard dogs. And last but not least, IH said this thing is so great, we want our own patents. Reading the contract, Rossi has been the honest one. Nothing Rossi has told us contradicts the contract, does it?

      • bachcole

        Have you read the contract?

        And don’t try to paint me as being on one side or the other. I am merely following the (lack of) evidence.

      • Apart from the lack of any third party ‘customer’. If this follows the usual pattern however, there are probably no Rossi comments that actually state that the ‘customer’ is an independent entity, and a lot of implications that this is the case, leaving the reader to draw the required conclusions. I can’t really be bothered to check.

  • wpj

    Interestingly, the documents state Rossi only becomes IH’s chief scientist AFTER the validation is complete, rather than previously as people had thought

    • artefact

      After the year long validation or the 24h validation?

      • Josh G

        I think the 24h validation.

        • wpj

          But it says that he would spend 12 months helping them to build the plants, so I assume after the year.

          • Brent Buckner

            Section 4 is clear the Validation refers to the 24h test. Further, Section 13.1 clearly contemplates Rossi being Chief Scientist during the 1 year following Validation (which was originally to be the period of the 1 year Guaranteed Performance).

      • wpj

        It appears to be the year long one, but it took so long for IH to do anything (by which time they had the secret sauce mixture) that Rossi found a place to validate.

  • wpj

    Interestingly, the documents state Rossi only becomes IH’s chief scientist AFTER the validation is complete, rather than previously as people had thought

    Also, section 13.3 is good to read as this is the non-compete clause which is probably being invoked.

    • artefact

      After the year long validation or the 24h validation?

      • Josh G

        I think the 24h validation.

        • wpj

          But it says that he would spend 12 months helping them to build the plants, so I assume after the year.

          • Brent Buckner

            Section 4 is clear the Validation refers to the 24h test. Further, Section 13.1 clearly contemplates Rossi being Chief Scientist during the 1 year following Validation (which was originally to be the period of the 1 year Guaranteed Performance).

      • wpj

        It appears to be the year long one, but it took so long for IH to do anything (by which time they had the secret sauce mixture) that Rossi found a place to validate.

  • Barbierir

    Next edition of Mats book is going to be a lot ticker

  • Barbierir

    Next edition of Mats book is going to be a lot ticker

  • DrD

    (Energy Produced + Energy Consumed) should read (Energy Produced / Energy Consumed)

  • DrD

    Rather a trivial correction:
    (Energy Produced + Energy Consumed) should read
    (Energy Produced / Energy Consumed)

  • DrD

    Sad news but it makes interesting reading and explains much.
    If only we could support him but any help I could offer wouldn’tbe of any value.

  • artefact

    From Sifferkoll:

    “Revolution is a Fact! #ECAT at COP > 50 for 350 days!”

    http://www.sifferkoll.se/sifferkoll/lenr-energy-blackswan-revolution-is-a-fact-ecat-at-cop-50-for-350-days/

    • Sanjeev

      This amendment to the agreement talks about 6 cylinder hot cats test.
      http://www.sifferkoll.se/sifferkoll/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Rossi_et_al_v_Darden_et_al__flsdce-16-21199__0001.4.pdf
      There are some odd things, date is missing and two signs are missing.

      • They also dropped the COP requirement to 2.6.

        Maybe Rossi wasn’t yet confident he could reliably jack up the COP on the Hot Cats?

        • Sanjeev

          Full payment is still subject to COP>=6.
          They brought min to 2.6 instead of 4. I guess the reason could be that some preliminary tests gave a hot cat COP<4
          But the main point here is, it confirms that the 1MW plant is made of hot cats (6 cylinder unit), not LT cats.

  • artefact

    From Sifferkoll:

    “Revolution is a Fact! #ECAT at COP > 50 for 350 days!”

    http://www.sifferkoll.se/sifferkoll/lenr-energy-blackswan-revolution-is-a-fact-ecat-at-cop-50-for-350-days/

    • Steve Swatman

      This is by far the most important news, the court case, money and IP’s is just business as usual, the proof of concept has happened and everyone is concerned about the money and business, I think way too many people are missing the point.

      • jokuvaan

        “proof of concept has happened”

        Proof is still lacking as validation was not done by credible, professional, outside party as far as I know. That is also the reason, why reported result this it not breaking news or any news in mainstream.

    • Sanjeev

      This amendment to the agreement talks about 6 cylinder hot cats test.
      http://www.sifferkoll.se/sifferkoll/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Rossi_et_al_v_Darden_et_al__flsdce-16-21199__0001.4.pdf
      There are some odd things, date is missing and two signs are missing.

      • They also dropped the COP requirement to 2.6.

        Maybe Rossi wasn’t yet confident he could reliably jack up the COP on the Hot Cats?

        • Sanjeev

          Full payment is still subject to COP>=6.
          They brought min to 2.6 instead of 4. I guess the reason could be that some preliminary tests gave a hot cat COP<4
          But the main point here is, it confirms that the 1MW plant is made of hot cats (6 cylinder unit), not LT cats.

  • Jonnyb

    This SUCKS big time!

  • Jonnyb

    This SUCKS big time!

  • wpj

    No it’s not, it’s “Rossi’s lawyer says”!

    • Andrew

      This^^^^ the filing is the filing.

  • Sanjeev

    Why he is angry? Its certain, he did not get the money.
    The real question is why IH didn’t pay and we are all waiting to know that. It will cause big waves.

    • wpj

      He is angry as they got the sauce recipe after paying $11.5m and seem to be exploiting it with others.

      • Sanjeev

        Well , he shouldn’t have given them everything before full payment. At least not the catalyst.
        Another dilemma is, why were the $89m not in escrow? Why did AR take such a big risk?

  • Gerald

    This must be a coincedence. Searching JM chemicals I found 1 small building from them near florida called intercat..

    https://www.google.com/maps/place/Intercat+Inc/@32.113066,-81.2220017,234m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!1m3!3m2!1s0x0:0xc3a7f765bd562573!2sIntercat+Inc!3m1!1s0x0:0xc3a7f765bd562573?hl=nl-NL

    Take a look at google earth and see what they have behind the building. Is there a way to see how old the google earth photo’s are?

    • Gerald

      Did I make a funny mistake by searching the wrong company? 😉
      I always thought the cats where standing in a hall.

      • Teemu Soilamo

        wpj seems to think it’s Johnson Matthey, not JM Chemicals.

        http://chemicals.matthey.com/

        • I don’t think so. Henry W. Johnson signed on behalf of JM Chemical Products, Inc.

          Henry Johnson is also the President of Leonardo Corp.

          It’s this company: http://visulate.com/rental/visulate_search.php?CORP_ID=P14000056117

          This is another awful development IMO.

          See last page of http://www.sifferkoll.se/sifferkoll/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Rossi_et_al_v_Darden_et_al__flsdce-16-21199__0001.2.pdf

          • Sanjeev

            Johnson Matthey Chemicals is based in UK, like the last page says, but can be just a big coincidence that the names match.
            JMC is a problem because it got incorporated in 2014, just around the time it was “found” by Rossi.
            Anyhow, since IH paid for the plant, the real customer is IH and JMC is a customer of IH, who got the plant on lease and paid $1000 per day to IH. So our fears of IH being the customer are realized !

          • wpj

            The document says that it is a owned by a UK operation; JMC is the stock market listing of Johnson Matthey.

            The Vortex people have speculated on JM Chemicals on 46th/79th.

            Jm Products Corp

            7861 NW 46th St, Doral, FL 33166

            (786) 631-4676

            https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@25.8159196,-80.3238945,208m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en

            But just warehouses and doesn’t seem correct for any chemical operations (I’m a chemist!)

          • Known: JM Chemical (JMC) Products is direct customer.
            Known: Johnson is President of both Leonardo Corp and JM Chemical Products
            Known: JM Chemical Products is owned by a UK entity
            Known: Johnson , Rossi etc have no ownership of JMC

            Educated Guess: Johnson Matthey is the UK entity that owns JMC

            In which case JMC was probably established by Johnson Matthey just to conduct the test.

          • wpj

            Sounds plausible; they have an on going programme of CO2 reduction, so maybe this was a test bed.

            As I mentioned, he possibly had dealings with them for his metals and LAH (though they have just sold Alfa Aesar which would have supplied that).

          • Bob Greenyer

            Johnson Matthey provided the original cathodes to Pons and Fleischmann that worked.

            http://www.e-catworld.com/2015/04/14/mfmp-announce-receipt-of-original-palladium-wire-used-by-martin-fleischmann-plan-for-replication-of-fleischmannpons-experiment/

            With their proven history in this story from the beginning – it is quite likely they approached Rossi and they worked something out to the satisfaction of all parties.

            As others have said – this would explain the next plant being cited in UK – the first was for Rossi’s convenience – this one is for JM convenience.

            If JMC is on board – Rossi does not need IH and it could be JMC that is spearheading the legal case (speculation)

          • Wow, that’s quite a connection!

          • Bob Greenyer

            This could be a beautiful circle – JMC clearing their name by ‘closing the loop’

          • Duffy

            wow. you guys should be detectives.

          • Bob Greenyer

            Thanks, but really, all scientists (or de-facto scientists) at the frontier need to be detectives – looking for the clues that nature leaves hidden in plain sight.

          • Bob Greenyer

            Thanks, but really, all scientists (or de-facto scientists) at the frontier need to be detectives – looking for the clues that nature leaves hidden in plain sight.

          • wpj

            Yes, that is the Vortex place; as far as I can see from the earth view there are no chemical type installations that I would recognise.

          • Probably all we need to look for is some kind of vent that 1MW of hot air from a condenser might have been dumped through.

          • Somebody noted on vortex that there is a Pepsi plant next door to one of the sites associated with JMC.

          • That’s a very interesting observation.

          • artefact

            Yes. The company is newly set up. Hard to have them producing something useful. So they could just sell steam to a different company.

          • Frechette

            What one really needs is an IR satellite image

          • Michael W Wolf

            If they were going to commit fraud, they would claim 3 COP and not risk such a ridiculous COP. Lighten up. The suit won’t be about the COP, it will be over IP or NDA issues. Relax, LENR is a new energy source. Open a bottle of champagne, we are getting there.

    • US_Citizen71
  • Michael W Wolf

    The contract said, which IH signed. It said Rossi would prove to them in a 24 hours test, It said Rossi would receive ten million dollars. it said IH approved of the ERV, it said IH would provide their own guard dogs. And last but not least, IH said this thing is so great, we want our own patents. Reading the contract, Rossi has been the honest one. Nothing Rossi has told us contradicts the contract, does it?

    • Apart from the lack of any third party ‘customer’. If this follows the usual pattern however, there are probably no Rossi comments that actually state that the ‘customer’ is independent, and a lot of implications that this may be the case, leaving the reader to draw the required conclusions. I can’t really be bothered to check.

  • wpj

    It’s in the documents, which is why they (IH) made the Lugano reactor.

    Clearly, by the time that they had paid $11.5m he trusted them. A mistake for us all…….

    Section 3 (2) (b), underlined

  • wpj

    Errrr, top of the page, second link.

  • wpj

    It was intended as a joke.

  • Oystein Lande

    After reading the Court document complaint, I would not be surprised If Rossi wins….

    But of course, it may not be the full story…

  • cashmemorz

    Self built will be the way to go until the court case is settled. Probably 5 years or more.

  • Bob Greenyer

    Thanks, but really, all scientists (or de-facto scientists) at the frontier need to be detectives – looking for the clues that nature leaves hidden in plain sight.

  • BillH

    Here’s the real question, which I have phrased to avoid the simple yes or no types of answer, that I would pose to each of the involved parties, AR, IH, the ERV and the customer:

    For the whole duration of the 1 year test what is the total energy saving of power output over power input? is it A) 75%(COP 4), B) 87%(COP 6), C) 98%(COP 50) or D) Some other figure, please specify exactly.

    Let’s see if anyone is willing to go on record:-

    AR=???*
    IH=???*
    ERV=???*
    Customer=???

    *The first 3 should obviously either be in the report or can be calculated from the report.

    • BillH

      My maths was slightly out B) should be 83%

  • jousterusa

    I hope many here will enjoy our front-page headline! http://www.american-reporter.com

  • jousterusa

    As some of you know, I was the successful Plaintiff in Shea v Reno, which got the law allowing government censorship of the Internet declared unconstitutional in NY Federal Court. As few would know, I covered courts for the Middletown NY Times Herald-Record, am the nephew of a three-time NY State Supreme Court justice, was a private investigator in substantial political matters and brought the long-running IP cases Slesinger v Disney to the world’s attention and covered the case for several years. I have a more than passing familiarity with many of the issues claimed in the Leonardo brief, and I feel certain it will preval. Let us just hope that IH and Cherokee, Darden and Vaughan have the good sense to settle before they lose a great deal more than they ever cointemplated was possible. AR and Leonardo were completely protected by very astute lawyers who apparently understood the value of the IP rights and protected them accordingly. I think that is also good news for the world!

    • SG

      Let’s hope they don’t settle too soon, because then we’ll never know many of the behind the scene details. The court systems are quite good at bringing truth to light.

    • Gerard McEk

      When I interpret this right, the Americans would not see an Ecat for a long time, as long as it takes to sattle for court. Well AR go to Europe and make your thing and sell it to us, then we have a lot of time to see IH and AR quarrel for court, while we silently enjoy our New Fire.

  • jousterusa

    As some of you know, I was the successful Plaintiff in Shea v Reno, which got the law allowing government censorship of the Internet declared unconstitutional in NY Federal Court. As few would know, I covered courts for the Middletown NY Times Herald-Record, am the nephew of a three-time NY State Supreme Court justice, was a private investigator in substantial political matters and brought the long-running IP cases Slesinger v Disney to the world’s attention and covered the case for several years. I have a more than passing familiarity with many of the issues claimed in the Leonardo brief, and I feel certain it will preval. Let us just hope that IH and Cherokee, Darden and Vaughan have the good sense to settle before they lose a great deal more than they ever cointemplated was possible. AR and Leonardo were completely protected by very astute lawyers who apparently understood the value of the IP rights and protected them accordingly. I think that is also good news for the world!

    • SG

      Let’s hope they don’t settle too soon, because then we’ll never know many of the behind the scene details. The court systems are quite good at bringing truth to light.

    • The Contract says “The ERV will be chosen by mutual agreement between Leonardo and the Company (Industrial Heat) and Leonardo and the Company shall bear the ERV’s costs fifty-fifty. At their respective elections, the Company and Leonardo may have representatives present to observe the Validation process and discuss testing and its results with the ERV.”

      Clearly Industrial Heat can’t claim they go scammed. They obviously agreed to have that ERV do the test. The ERV says COP was always above 6 and at times above 50. So now IH must meet their end of the deal and pay the $89m.

    • Martin Tornberg

      It seems possible that Rossi may have violated one or more of the Covenants and Agreements listed in Paragraph 13 of his License Agreement with IH (“Document 1-2”). If that were the case, then Rossi and Leonardo might not be entitled to payment from IH, or they might not be entitled to the full payment amount.

      • Josh G

        Here are two thoughts on that:

        Section 13.2 is a ‘Right of First Offer.’ Rossi doesn’t have full rights outside of IH territory. Instead, if he wants to license, manufacture or distribute the e-cat outside of IH’s territory, he first has to give IH the opportunity to make him an offer. If he declines that offer, he the agreement he has to sign with the other party has to be for 90% of the money IH offered, and ‘no less favorable.’

        So imagine the following scenario: Rossi wants to start production in, say, Sweden. But first he has to give IH the chance to make him an offer. So they offer him some crazy amount. Now Rossi knows that IH is not going to do anything with it if he gives them the license to manufacture in Sweden. But at the same time, he can’t find anybody willing to match IH’s crazy offer. So no distribution goes forward. (Though I guess he could accept their offer and just get rich.)

        Section 13.4: This clause says that any advancements Rossi makes to e-cat are part of IH’s license. But here is what’s interesting: the second half of the paragraph says that any advancements that IH makes belong to IH. So it seems this is the clause where the meat of their fight is going to be: which part of the advancements belong to Rossi and which to IH? Also, it might be that Rossi hasn’t shared with them the secrets of the E-cat X, and they might be trying to squeeze that out of him by withholding payment. In any case, it seems like Darden has completely lost Rossi’s trust.

        • “, if he wants to license, manufacture or distribute the e-cat outside of IH’s territory, he first has to give IH the opportunity to make him an offer. If he declines that offer, he the agreement he has to sign with the other party has to be for 90% of the money IH offered, and ‘no less favorable.'”

          This kind of agreement make me think of LENR-Cities ecosystem logic.

          When you are member of an ecosystem, you have to allow other members to access to your technology, not for free of course, but for not more than what you demand to foreigners.

          Don’t treat foreigners better than your family.
          This is win-win, as the one who have to treat the family well, is treated well by the family.

          this is this return that may be missing in IH/Rossi relationship.

          I like this kind of clause, but it have to be reciprocal.

        • Martin Tornberg

          Exactly, I agree with what you are saying, Josh, and it is possible that Rossi may have violated Paragraph 13.2 for the reasons you gave, and that he may have also violated 13.4 by choosing to not share secrets of the E-cat X, which IH can argue is covered under 13.4. So, technically it is possible that Rossi might be in violation of the terms of the agreement, potentially providing IH a basis for not paying him, and possibly even providing IH a basis to also sue him for breach of contract.

          • Sanjeev

            IH has shot down the whole tech by calling it as non-substantial. They don’t say in their press release that there has been some breach of T&Cs, they just trash the whole E-Cat thing.

            This is puzzling. It doesn’t look like a simple violation.

          • Josh G

            Martin, here is another comment I made expanding on this in a different thread before reading yours on Mats Lewan’s blog. Lots of points of overlap. I like your framing it in terms of conflicting versus converging interests:

            https://disqus.com/home/discussion/ecw/rossi_responds_to_ih_statement/#comment-2612542160

          • Michael W Wolf

            Well then that was stupid on their part. They let themselves breach the contract by not paying. They let it end without any formal complaint, leaving the contract to expire unfulfilled by IH. Right now, until a jury says it was rossi who breached leading to IH not paying. It is as though the contract never existed. That is the way I see it.

      • Michael W Wolf

        I don’t see IH having anything that was in the contract they breached. They didn’t pay, Rossi has claimed this under oath. Everything reverts back to Rossi I think. IH made no formal complaint of a Rossi breach of contract, they just let the clock run out on their payment obligation. None of that contract is valid because it ended without IHs payment, and would need a jury to take the rights of all licensing and IP from Rossi and give to IH. It seems to me anything IH says is meaningless and has no legal standing. When they counter Rossi’s claims under oath, then we can see the validity of their proclamations.

    • Gerard McEk

      When I interpret this right, the Americans would not see an Ecat for a long time, as long as it takes to sattle for court. Well AR go to Europe and make your thing and sell it to us, then we have a lot of time to see IH and AR quarrel for court, while we silently enjoy our New Fire.

  • BillH

    Just read the whole suit claims, there is no coming back from that, IH and AR are split irreparably.
    IH is looking more the dark force exploiting the Italian inventor. It may all hinge on the exact details contained in the report, and how IH may have attempted to subvert E-CAT IP.
    The bad news is the case could take years to unravel.

    The best way forward for AR would be to pursue release of E-Cat products out with the jurisdiction of IH’s license, and leave the court case to his lawyers. Cherokee/IH could go down if they lose, so they better have some good counter claims. If they were wise they would pay up and be content to manufacture products, but it looks as if things have gone too far for that.

  • “if he wants to license, manufacture or distribute the e-cat outside of IH’s territory, he first has to give IH the opportunity to make him an offer. If he declines that offer, he the agreement he has to sign with the other party has to be for 90% of the money IH offered, and ‘no less favorable.'”

    that is a horrible, horrible deal that Rossi signed. please tell me that all the other licenses Rossi has are still valid

    • Omega Z

      I’ll re-read the arrangement when I get a chance.
      I would assume this would involve new or additional licenses or the replacement of a licensee that quits their territory. Not those that preexist. Obviously, Rossi wouldn’t write himself out.

    • Michael W Wolf

      IH has no territory. They breached the contract and it is null and void. IH will have to prove they didn’t breach the contract to a jury to get their rights back.

  • Sanjeev

    IH has shot down the whole tech by calling it as non-substantial. They don’t say in their press release that there has been some breach of T&Cs, they just trash the whole E-Cat thing.

    This is puzzling. It doesn’t look like a simple violation.

  • Josh G

    Martin, here is another comment I made expanding on this in a different thread before reading yours on Mats Lewan’s blog. Lots of points of overlap. I like your framing it in terms of conflicting versus converging interests:

    https://disqus.com/home/discussion/ecw/rossi_responds_to_ih_statement/#comment-2612542160

  • Michael W Wolf

    IH has no territory. They breached the contract and it is null and void. IH will have to prove they didn’t breach the contract to a jury to get their rights back.

  • Michael W Wolf

    I don’t see IH having anything that was in the contract they breached. They didn’t pay, Rossi has claimed this under oath. Everything reverts back to Rossi I think. IH made no formal complaint of a Rossi breach of contract, they just let the clock run out on their payment obligation. None of that contract is valid because it ended without IHs payment, and would need a jury to take the rights of all licensing and IP from Rossi and give to IH. It seems to me anything IH says is meaningless and has no legal standing. When they counter Rossi’s claims under oath, then we can see the validity of their proclamations.

  • Michael W Wolf

    Well then that was stupid on their part. They let themselves breach the contract by not paying. They let it end without any formal complaint, leaving the contract to expire unfulfilled by IH. Right now, until a jury says it was rossi who breached leading to IH not paying. It is as though the contract never existed. That is the way I see it.