New Q&A With Andrea Rossi on ERV, IH and E-Cat Test (Update: Rossi Dissmisses "2nd ERV Report" Rumor)

UPDATE (April 13, 2016)

This is a Q&A on the JONP today on the same topic.

Patrick Ellul
April 13, 2016 at 7:13 AM
Dear Andrea,

Jed Rothwell alleges that there is a second ERV of the 1 year 1MW plat test and that his report draws an opposite conclusion to the the one from the ERV that you described.

Does this second ERV exist?

Best regards,
Patrick

Andrea Rossi
April 13, 2016 at 7:52 AM
Patrick Ellul:
Jed Rothwell is an intelligent person and has a remarkable sense of humour. Obviously he is joking.
The only ERV has been the one accepted by contract from both the counterparts with a signed agreement.
It is true that IH had their men constantly in the plant all the 352 days of the tests, and never said anything was wrong. It is true that for one year of the test they were free to bring with them anybody they wanted to control everything, but they never raised any doubt or critique. As well as it is true that Tom Darden, JT Vaughn and their investors from Woodford and from China have been in the plant many times, bringing with them their consultants, have talked with the director of JM in his office of the factory, have made their investors talk with the director of JM, who said good things giving good references, based on which Woodford has given to Tom Darden 50-60 millions of dollars and the Chinese started with him a 200 million concern in China.
Tom Darden , IT Vaughn also in this case danced like opera ballet etoiles around their investors, the director of JM, myself chanting ” Stellar, stellar”. No remarks of any sort have been communicated from IH, Cherokee Fund or Woodford, let alone the Chinese, who have been there with their engineers, about the plant, the ERV, the Customer. Until our bill loomed. Witnesses available. In due time and place.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

I’ve tried to find a reference to Jed Rothwell posting about this alternative and contradictory ERV report, and so far I can only find this quote on the vortex-l from him:

Jed Rothwell has said that he is in contact with personnel at Industrial Heat.

He wrote (thanks artefact) in this message: “1. There is more than one ERV.”

He then wrote:

“I do not know if there is another complete report, but I do know that the I.H. observer disagrees with the Penon report, for good reasons.” (on this thread: https://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg109049.html) so maybe the question itself is faulty.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

April 12, 2016

Here is an extended Q&A from the Journal of Nuclear Physics today regarding the issues surrounding the lawsuit the Andrea Rossi/Leonardo Corp. has filed against Industrial Heat et. al. Rossi’s responses to the questions are below each question in bold. His original comment can be accessed here.

Soky
April 11, 2016 at 10:30 PM
Dr Andrea Rossi

Can we have the following information about the ERV that made the report:
1- education
– doctorate in nuclear engineering, obtained with 110/110 csumma cum laude in the Alma Mater of Bologna (Italy). Note : the University of Bologna is one of the main Italian universities and in particular the Faculty of nuclear engineering is considered very selective

2- has he been chosen and agreed upon by both Industrial Heat and Leonardo Corporation ?
yes

3- has IH been able to talk with him for any complint for all the 1 year long test ?
yes

4- has the ERV experience in plants that produce steam ?
yes

5- has the ERV experience of nuclear reactions ?
yes

6- who paid the ERV ?
50% IH, 50% Leonardo Corporation

7- has he experience of validations ?
yes

8- how old is he ?
I think around 55

9- whose were the instruments he used to make the measurements ?
the ERV used only his instruments, and retrieved them at the end of the test to control their status

10- who installed the measurement instruments ?
The ERV, helped by personnel of Industrial Heat

11- did IH participate to the choice where to install the instruments ?
yes

12- did IH maintain his personnel in the plant during all the days of the test ?
always, every single day

13- did IH have the right and the possibility to contact the ERV for delucidations along all the test period ?
yes

14- is it true that IH visited multiple times the plant in operation with their investors ?
yes

15- is it true that they collected 50 million dollars from Woodford funds and initiated a 200 million business in China after theyr delegations visited the plant in operation ?
yes

16- is it true that during the visit IH made also their investors talk with the director of the factory of the Customer during their visits, after which the investors gave them the money to be invested ?
yes

Thank you very much if you can answer: your answer will clear a situation after Mr Darden has diffused information based on which IH was totally unaware of the fact that there was a test on course based on the agreement.

Regards,
Soky

So Andrea Rossi continues to be quite public about his position in connection with issues surrounding the suit against IH et al — IH meanwhile are still remaining quiet in public, but surely they will be making preparations in private. I would expect that every statement that Rossi makes on the Journal of Nuclear Physics will be scrutinized as possible evidence in the case, so he would be wise to be very careful what he posts publicly. No new documents have been posted in the court docket for the case here: https://www.pacermonitor.com/public/case/11135976/Rossi_et_al_v_Darden_et_al.

  • wpj

    Getting in practice for the court hearing, clearly.

    • Ged

      Looks like he’s ready for the witness stand!

  • Sylvie Cemoi

    I still can’t believe that Industrial Heat agreed to take this ERV: an old friend of Rossi!
    Seriously, couldn’t they find somebody else?

    • wpj

      HE WAS NOT AN OLD FRIEND!! How many times do we hear this rubbish.

      He was chosen as he did the 24h test.

      • Sylvie Cemoi

        Well, they should have chosen somebody else; somebody who doesn’t have any link to Rossi.

        • psi2u2

          They could have and should have, but since IH signed off on it, the situation reflects just as badly on them — worse, actually — than on Rossi. But you need to be more careful about phrase like “old friend” when they are, as others have said, entirely unjustified and unfairly prejudicial to Rossi.

        • Keep in mind that an independent test to satisfy outside concerns was not their goal here. They may have prioritized other things more like secrecy.

          They mitigated any concerns about Penon by having salaried people on site confirming measurements and by controlling the test setup. Surely they knew results were trending in a major positive way after just a few months. Had they any real concerns about Penon or the preliminary results they had the access and power to triple-check things.

          • wpj

            Don’t forget, though, that it was not plain sailing to start as the had to abandon the 10kW/20kW (whichever they were) and go to the 250kW set up. I’m sure a good scammer would be able to work it with the first set up

          • Devil’s advocate… or IH had the first set up too well rigged to fool so he fabricated an excuse to swap out the reactors and slip in the magic scam switches.

        • timycelyn

          “Required, an alien from outer space to act as an ERV in a hotly contested equipment test.

          Any connection with the species Homo sapiens will automatically disqualify the applicant as this will be seen as clear evidence of collusion with the infamous Anrea Rossi, illusionist par excellence.

          All applications to be lodged in quadriplicate with the starship Heart of Gold next time it improbably passes through your part of the Universe..”

        • Ged

          He didn’t have a link with Rossi, he has a link with IH. All Penon has done is test Rossi’s devices -on behalf of IH-.

    • There’s nothing wrong with Penon per se. He’s qualified.

      It’s a bit misleading to call him an old friend of Rossi’s. It’d be more accurate to say that Penon had previous involvement with the E-Cat, testing one in 2012.

      Industrial Heat’s acceptance of Penon as the ERV indicates to me that either they wanted to keep the circle of knowledge really tight so they went with someone already in the loop, and/or had little concern about the independence of the results either because they had seen enough to know it worked by that time or had already decided to discount everything emerging from the Rossi camp as bogus.

      They acted like they didn’t even want to do the test, perhaps to save their $89M. Perhaps they felt once they had no choice but to allow the test to move forward that having Penon there might be a useful way to cast a cloud over the results in court — if they were planning that all along.

      • wpj

        This is the implication of “Guest”‘s post on the LENR forum (claimed to know people in IH). It is posted on one of the recent topics here or can be found in the comments section in ML’s latest posting

        • artefact
          • Ged

            Be very interesting to see if IH goes that route for its defense. Still makes little sense though–they had their own people there, and they were in their rights to “rock the boat” as much as they wanted, and who wouldn’t with 89 million on the line? But we’ll see, once IH gets their defense filed.

        • Guest paints IH as only caring about the IP transfer and not at all about the test, who the ERV was for the test nor the apparently positive test results.

          But it’s a little more colorful than that isn’t it. Did IH really think that Rossi would play nice when clearly the major gate he would be interested in was the $89M test gate and they were all but ignoring it? If IH wanted the IP delivered then maybe they shouldn’t have failed to find a customer for the test plant or choose their own ERV for it like they were taking it seriously.

          I don’t blame Rossi at all for going into a shell if that’s the way it played out. They telegraphed kind of early that they had no interest in publicly standing by him after a positive test nor paying him. So why should he give them everything if they were not honoring their part?

          So we have a Mexican standoff.

          Likely outcome will be a dissolution of the partnership unless they agree at this late date to swap the money for the full IP. I’m not sure either will conclude that’s in their best interests now. They both seem to have alternative game plans in motion.

          • wpj

            In the bio from his website it said that he doesn’t trust anyone and did not divulge things to Focardi (think that it is taken from “impossible Invention”). If he could not trust someone that close, then IH stood no chance.

          • There are times when I think Rossi’s distrust gets him in exactly the situations he wants to avoid.

            But in this case it looks like his don’t-screw-me radar may have been working properly.

    • Jerry Soloman

      you can believe it if you understand how the corporate Set-Up works to vilify an opponent, with billions at stake here anything goes even if it was done sloppily by Darden I’m sure he wishes he could go back and clean up his paper trail.

    • zombie lie that will not die.

      • Ged

        I know right? This is frankly getting ridiculous.

  • wpj

    Getting in practice for the court hearing, clearly.

    • Ged

      Looks like he’s ready for the witness stand!

  • Maksimov Eugene

    such a question, and Industrial Heat signed test report?

    Maybe they have other data on the results of tests on their employees at the plant of 1 MW.

    • Ged

      Their head employee there praised the 1 MW plant, saying how he had seen amazing things. So… I dunno. It’s going to be extremely interesting to see what IH mounts as its defense.

  • Maksimov Eugene

    such a question, and Industrial Heat signed test report?

    Maybe they have other data on the results of tests on their employees at the plant of 1 MW.

    • Ged

      Their head employee there praised the 1 MW plant, saying how he had seen amazing things. So… I dunno. It’s going to be extremely interesting to see what IH mounts as its defense.

  • Jerry Soloman

    Tom Darden’s plan did not work out because Rossi caught on to IH early on, the plan was to put a low-er level nuclear engineer preferably of Italian decent to help discredit
    Rossi and skew the final results, there is a clear paper trial of Industrial Heat signing off on the entire process,not to mention Darden transferring Rossi IP to other companies associated with IH especially ** “Robert Godes of Brillouin energy” is particularly disturbing in the Ecat IP scandal.

    • Winebuff67

      Funny thing is Godes has dismissed Rossi from the start but didn’t see a reason to not use his IP. (Allegedly) or F9. 😉

      • Warthog

        Flatly wrong. Godes has never “dismissed Rossi”. He has, on all occasions when asked, said that he thought that Rossi had indeed produced large amounts of energy from LENR.

        What he “did” say was that he thought Rossi’s approach would prove difficult to start up and to control at a constant level. He was of the opinion that the Brillouin “Q-pulse” approach would solve the control problems in Rossi’s tech.

        To that end, he publicly offered to partner with Rossi to develop a more controllable device. Rossi (IMO stupidly) turned that offer down.

        That Godes was correct about the controllability is obvious to anyone who has followed this story for any length of time. Rossi has “maybe” solved the problem….but that is all we know.

    • Fedir Mykhaylov

      It seems to me that the “dry” Godes reactor unused Li. Correct me if I’m wrong.

    • Warthog

      There is NO indication that Darden has “transferred Rossi IP” to Brillouin. What Darden “has” done is LICENSE Brillouin’s “Q-pulse” technology.

      “If” IH has decided to mate that LICENSED technology to Rossi’s LICENSED technology, they are perfectly permitted to do so, both legally and ethically.

      Again “if” that combined technology works better than the “pure Rossi” approach, then IH is again perfectly free to use and patent the combination.

      Legally, IH will still have to pay Rossi a license fee and royalties to implement the combination for sale…..but the payment to Rossi will naturally be less than if only Rossi tech were manufactured and sold.

      In such a situation, the amount of license fees will either be amicably negotiated between IH and Rossi, or by a lawsuit, with the fees decided by a judge.

      None of the above is any negative reflection on either Godes or Brillouin.

  • Jerry Soloman

    Tom Darden’s plan did not work out because Rossi caught on to IH early on, the plan was to put a low-er level nuclear engineer preferably of Italian decent to help discredit
    Rossi and skew the final results, there is a clear paper trial of Industrial Heat signing off on the entire process,not to mention Darden transferring Rossi IP to other companies associated with IH especially ** “Robert Godes of Brillouin energy” is particularly disturbing in the Ecat IP scandal.

    • Winebuff67

      Funny thing is Godes has dismissed Rossi from the start but didn’t see a reason to not use his IP. (Allegedly) or F9. 😉

      • Warthog

        Flatly wrong. Godes has never “dismissed Rossi”. He has, on all occasions when asked, said that he thought that Rossi had indeed produced large amounts of energy from LENR.

        What he “did” say was that he thought Rossi’s approach would prove difficult to start up and to control at a constant level. He was of the opinion that the Brillouin “Q-pulse” approach would solve the control problems in Rossi’s tech.

        To that end, he publicly offered to partner with Rossi to develop a more controllable device. Rossi (IMO stupidly) turned that offer down.

        That Godes was correct about the controllability is obvious to anyone who has followed this story for any length of time. Rossi has “maybe” solved the problem….but that is all we know.

    • Fedir Mykhaylov

      It seems to me that the “dry” Godes reactor unused Li. Correct me if I’m wrong.

    • Warthog

      There is NO indication that Darden has “transferred Rossi IP” to Brillouin. What Darden “has” done is LICENSE Brillouin’s “Q-pulse” technology.

      “If” IH has decided to mate that LICENSED technology to Rossi’s LICENSED technology, they are perfectly permitted to do so, both legally and ethically.

      Again “if” that combined technology works better than the “pure Rossi” approach, then IH is again perfectly free to use and patent the combination.

      Legally, IH will still have to pay Rossi a license fee and royalties to implement the combination for sale…..but the payment to Rossi will naturally be less than if only Rossi tech were manufactured and sold.

      In such a situation, the amount of license fees will either be amicably negotiated between IH and Rossi, or by a lawsuit, with the fees decided by a judge.

      None of the above is any negative reflection on either Godes or Brillouin.

  • Andreas Moraitis

    I am surprised about the questioner’s last sentence. Did he just mix things up, or does he have exclusive information? IH’s press release does not say that they have not been aware of the ongoing test.

    • wpj

      That comes from ML’s contacts

      …..Ok, so this is what I heard from sources having visited the plant and talked to the customer (who could of course be an actor, playing his part in a scam…)

    • wpj

      Apologies; though that you were talking about the last question rather than the comment

      • Andreas Moraitis

        I meant the part after the last question.

    • Ged

      Additionally, E-catworld.com was following the 1 year test the entire time, so there is -no- way IH did not know a test was underway, nor did they claim they didn’t know in their pre-emptive-obviously-knew-this-was-coming press release. If they try to use that as a defense, the judge will toss them out on their bums, as knowledge of this test was passed around in the media for quite some time. In addition, Frank e-mailed them and has talked to them about all this (not that they ever said much in a reply), so again there is no way they can claim they didn’t know.

    • Sanjeev

      Me too. Its not possible that IH was not aware, its a matter of $89M !
      I think some people are planting misinformation here and there. The IH filing new patents a few days ago was one such disinfo. Its sad that Rossi simply accepts anything posted on his blog by random people without checking the facts.

      Such things can be used against him in the court.

      • Ged

        Yeah, he really needs to start being a lot more careful about people “planting” suggestions without him vetting very carefully his answers.

  • Brokeeper

    Dear Andrea,

    After the extensive questioning from Soky, there can only be one conclusion why IH is challenging your IP and honesty. It is a shame of your science that you withheld and neglected to include within the IP and patent the key component …….

    • Fedir Mykhaylov

      A bit of humor to defuse the situation

  • Brokeeper

    Dear Andrea,

    After the extensive questioning from Soky, there can only be one conclusion why IH is challenging your IP and honesty. It is a shame of your science that you withheld and neglected to include within the IP and patent the key component, your stethoscope.
    However, I still respect you once you amend your ways,
    Brokeeper

    • Jerry Soloman

      EXCELLENT BROKEEPER

      • Brokeeper

        Thanks – hehe.

    • Fedir Mykhaylov

      A bit of humor to defuse the situation

  • You know, one has to assume that Rossi is telling the truth about these matters because they could be easily refuted if not true. He might fool us out here in the peanut gallery for a little while if untrue but he wouldn’t fool anybody that mattered.

    Therefore assuming this is all true, the conclusion is that Industrial Heat had complete knowledge of and confidence in the test. They helped set it up, had two people monitoring the whole time (and we’re told they performed redundant measurements), could discuss any concerns with Penon at any time, wooed investors with the plant, offered up direct access to the plant’s customer for testimonials and received a very positive report at its conclusion.

    It’s hard not to believe Rossi’s viewpoint that this is just about money. They don’t want to pay based on a loophole or technicality or simply wish to delay payment or negotiate more favorable terms such as forcing transfer of any remaining E-Cat X secrets.

    • IH does not criticize the test in their answer.
      they just say that the recipe they received does not work.

      • Yes, but the implication all over the Internet is that Industrial Heat does not believe the test results.

    • radvar

      I resemble your remarks about a peanut gallery.

  • You know, one has to assume that Rossi is telling the truth about these matters because they could be easily refuted if not true. He might fool us out here in the peanut gallery for a little while if untrue but he wouldn’t fool anybody that mattered.

    Therefore assuming this is all true, the conclusion is that Industrial Heat had complete knowledge of and confidence in the test. They helped set it up, had two people monitoring the whole time (and we’re told they performed redundant measurements), could discuss any concerns with Penon at any time, wooed investors with the plant, offered up direct access to the plant’s customer for testimonials and received a very positive report at its conclusion.

    It’s hard not to believe Rossi’s viewpoint that this is just about money. They don’t want to pay based on a loophole or technicality or simply wish to delay payment or negotiate more favorable terms such as forcing transfer of any remaining E-Cat X secrets.

    • IH does not criticize the test in their answer.
      they just say that the recipe they received does not work.

      • Yes, but the implication all over the Internet is that Industrial Heat does not believe the test results.

  • Winebuff67

    There will be some revelations from IH I would hope people are not thinking this is so clear cut. They most likely have some solid reasons to not pay!

    • Yes, we await Industrial Heat side of the story. If they directly refute these claims by Rossi then it’ll be a simple matter of somebody is lying and discovery will indicate which side is truthful rather quickly I imagine.

      • If they go for the ‘couldn’t substantiate’ argument to justify non-payment, it could be very difficult for the court to get to the truth. IH are the gatekeepers for information relating to in house replication, and they must have some genuine ‘fail’ data they could wheel out, whilst concealing successes (a dangerous game, but not beyond the bounds of possibility). Of course, it would then be very difficult to account for the shows put on for investors, on the basis of which sucking in large investments was successful.

        For the judge this might leave two possible scenarios, (1) Rossi has what he has claimed but didn’t hand over some essential key info or (2) Rossi and associates have faked their positive results.

        Both would be superficially a partial win for IH as they wouldn’t have to pay, but it would then be very difficult for them to go ahead with industrialisation as this would immediately expose their duplicity. It would negate the contract, leaving Rossi free to do whatever he wants with all the IP, so either way it is Rossi who really wins, although IH may counter claim for costs and damages, which could be painful for him if they won.

        • Having followed this for 5 years now, I think predicting that future events will lead to the greatest amount of ambiguity is a pretty good bet.

          So yeah the court case will probably just increase our confusion. Although I hope for the opposite.

    • Buck

      It is interesting that IH chose to justify non-payment of $89M with the word “substantiate”, a word with a broad rather than precise meaning.

      I can only wonder how Judge Altonaga will weigh “failure to substantiate” with the presumably accurate measure of COP = +50. Considering the global implications of an inexpensive energy device with a +50 COP, IH’s reasons have to be both solid AND material relative such a revolutionary invention.

      Without knowing IH’s point, I can only wonder if their solid reason weighs enough to withhold a contractually stipulated $89M. And to justify the apparent filing of patents in IH’s name. And to apparently share IP with Brillouin.

      • One thing I’m curious about… IH presumably gave the secret sauce to Brillouin who proceeded to demo on Capitol Hill. If they were demoing an offshoot of Rossi’s work, doesn’t that mean that it _did_ work and they did substantiate/replicate/whatever word you want to use?

        I think I read that Brillouin was working on a dry system before they got caught in this web so I don’t know if Brillouin’s demo had anything to do with Rossi’s IP. Some clarity on this issue would be great but I know we won’t get any anytime soon.

        • Buck

          I like your point about the Capital Hill demonstration. Also, don’t forget the recently found patent document that outlines an achieved COP = 11. Doesn’t that also mean substantiate?

          However, as we all know . . . we must wait.

          • I know people get all worked up about patents but history shows that equating what a company or person puts into a patent with something that exists or is even true is a leap of faith. A lot of times it’s just people throwing stuff at a wall before the other guy hoping that something sticks and gives them precedence.

          • Omega Z

            Correct, Unless you’re they guy with the real deal, then the USPTO will deny deny deny your legitimate patent.

        • clovis ray

          what demo, they did not demo anything, the only thing i saw was a pipe with wires hanging out of it, was there a video of the reactor running with congressmen standing around, no, I think not, So there is another thing that has been bandied around that is a half truth, we don’t deal here in half truth, if it a theory say so,

          • You are correct. I went back and read the account and it was only a presentation, not a demo.

          • Brokeeper

            Rossi cleaned up the campfire ashes before they arrived.

    • HS61AF91

      Maybe the solid reason is the old greed/fear driving forces in making profit. IH professed betterment of humanity as the foundational principle of its endeavors, but guess that applies only after profiting. You could confabulate this into a myriad of complications, but in the end, it’s the simple explanation that likely prevails.

  • Winebuff67

    There will be some revelations from IH I would hope people are not thinking this is so clear cut. They most likely have some solid reasons to not pay!

    • Yes, we await Industrial Heat’s side of the story. If they directly refute these claims by Rossi then it’ll be a simple matter of somebody is lying and discovery will indicate which side is truthful rather quickly I imagine.

      • If they go for the ‘couldn’t substantiate’ argument to justify non-payment, it could be very difficult for the court to get to the truth. IH are the gatekeepers for information relating to in house replication, and they must have some genuine ‘fail’ data they could wheel out, whilst concealing successes (a dangerous game, but not beyond the bounds of possibility). Of course, it would then be very difficult to account for the shows put on for investors, on the basis of which sucking in large investments was successful.

        For the judge this might leave two possible scenarios, (1) Rossi has what he has claimed but didn’t hand over some essential key info or (2) Rossi and associates have faked their positive results.

        Both would be superficially a partial win for IH as they wouldn’t have to pay, but it would then be very difficult for them to go ahead with industrialisation as this would immediately expose their duplicity. It would negate the contract, leaving Rossi free to do whatever he wants with all the IP, so either way it is Rossi who really wins.

        On the other hand, if Rossi can show both that his stuff works, AND he handed over good information, IH could easily lose the case and be ordered to pay some or all of the outstanding sum. IH could well fold, then immediately declare bankruptcy if judgment is entered against them.

        • Having followed this for 5 years now, I think predicting that future events will lead to the greatest amount of ambiguity is a pretty good bet.

          So yeah the court case will probably just increase our confusion. Although I hope for the opposite.

    • Buck

      It is interesting that IH chose to justify non-payment of $89M with the word “substantiate”, a word with a broad rather than precise meaning.

      I can only wonder how Judge Altonaga will weigh “failure to substantiate” with the presumably accurate measure of COP = +50. Considering the global implications of an inexpensive energy device with a +50 COP, IH’s reasons have to be both solid AND material relative to such a revolutionary invention. Especially as Rossi has indicated that the newer E-Cat versions are included within IH’s license.

      Without knowing IH’s point, I can only wonder if their solid reason weighs enough to withhold a contractually stipulated $89M. And to justify the apparent filing of patents in IH’s name. And to apparently share IP with Brillouin.

      • ON EDIT: clovis ray reminded me that there was no demo, just a presentation on Capitol Hill, so please disregard my curiosity below, which I leave in its original form.

        —–

        One thing I’m curious about… IH presumably gave the secret sauce to Brillouin who proceeded to demo on Capitol Hill. If they were demoing an offshoot of Rossi’s work, doesn’t that mean that it _did_ work and they did substantiate/replicate/whatever word you want to use?

        I think I read that Brillouin was working on a dry system before they got caught in this web so I don’t know if Brillouin’s demo had anything to do with Rossi’s IP. Some clarity on this issue would be great but I know we won’t get any anytime soon.

        • Buck

          I like your point about the Capital Hill demonstration. Also, don’t forget the recently found patent document that outlines an achieved COP = 11. Doesn’t that also mean substantiate?

          However, as we all know . . . we must wait.

          • I know people get all worked up about patents but history shows that equating what a company or person puts into a patent with something that exists or is even true is a leap of faith. A lot of times it’s just people throwing stuff at a wall before the other guy hoping that something sticks and gives them precedence.

          • Omega Z

            Correct, Unless you’re they guy with the real deal, then the USPTO will deny deny deny your legitimate patent.

          • clovis ray

            The truth won’t be denied, time will tell, and we christians are very patient people.

          • Actually, some of us non-Christians are quite patient, too.

          • oldrolledgold

            endofhistory.info so you can be patient but forearmed too.

        • clovis ray

          what demo, they did not demo anything, the only thing i saw was a pipe with wires hanging out of it, was there a video of the reactor running with congressmen standing around, no, I think not, So there is another thing that has been bandied around that is a half truth, we don’t deal here in half truth, if it a theory say so,

          • You are correct. I went back and read the account and it was only a presentation, not a demo.

          • Brokeeper

            Rossi cleaned up the campfire ashes before they arrived.

          • clovis ray

            HI, LENR G
            Your doing a good job, answering questions, we all appreciate it, thanks,
            I have learned a lot, and darn interesting as well.
            do you suppose that leo.corp, will call for an cease and desist, order for I/H,

          • I’m not sure they can. The agreement calls for IP transfer. Even if they don’t honor the agreement going forward you can’t undo what’s already been done and they did make the $10M payment which was supposed to trigger the IP. Industrial Heat can do whatever they want with it in my non-legal opinion.

            I’d expect LC to try and get the $89M if they can but to proceed with their current industrialization plans. Hard to know, but it seems as if Rossi believes he has enough cash on hand (or possibly new investment?) to roll out a first wave of products. And from there expansion pays for itself.

          • Omega Z

            What Industrial heat is doing doesn’t make sense.
            ————————————————–
            U.S. Corporate Taxes(Various taxing bodies) can be as high as 50% dependent on where your business is located. Delay until foreign based headquarters can be setup.

            It’s an Election Year. Delay until Election is over..
            ————————————————–
            There may be something to this line of thinking.

          • clovis ray

            So you admit ip was turned over to I/H, OOO K, if they didn’t understand, that when they had something that belonged to him, And total payment was not make, deal is off, Dr.r has always had the martillo, hammer, just the kind of guy he is, and he needs room, to maneuver.
            And if we give him the respect he deserves, he gives us fantastic things, that non can compare,
            That only he knows how to control those things he has made, he test us to see if we are capable of handling such a thing, and we are failing to understand, what a great device this is. my prayer is, that the lord keeps his hand on Dr R. Shoulder, and watches over him, and that his will be done.

      • Albert Nilsson

        At this point in time we only have one persons assertion that a COP of 50 have been measured. A person that stands to earn 89 Million if it is true. I would treat that assertion very cautiously.

        • Hhiram

          Sure, but there are consequences to lying in court and in legal documents. This claim of COP 50 is so extravagant that it can’t be disguised as measurement error. To make such a bold claim in a court document with serious potential consequences for lying is at least *some* evidence that the claims are likely to be true (or at least Rossi believes they are true).

          • Albert Nilsson

            It wouldn’t surprise me if Rossi thinks that he has seem a COP of 50. That is not the same as that such an effect was actually present.

          • wpj

            The electricity consumption and power supplied will be the defining (……!!!) proof.

        • wpj

          Stated in legal documents………………..

          • Albert Nilsson

            If it only was true that nobody has ever been anything else than entirely truthful to a court of law.

    • HS61AF91

      Maybe the solid reason is the old greed/fear driving forces in making profit. IH professed betterment of humanity as the foundational principle of its endeavors, but guess that applies only after profiting. You could confabulate this into a myriad of complications, but in the end, it’s the simple explanation that likely prevails.

  • e-dog

    WHy oh WHY Roosi!!!!!
    The ERV is from the University of Bologna..

    • Pretty sure puppies like bologna. Just not as much as socks.

  • e-dog

    WHy oh WHY Roosi!!!!!
    The ERV is from the University of Bologna..

    • Pretty sure puppies like bologna. Just not as much as socks.

    • Albert Nilsson

      It is very surprising that they could not find a suitable expert in USA, but rather had to fly one over from Italy.

      • Alex Fenrick

        Surprising or fishy???

        • Omega Z

          Yes, I think something is fishy as well.

          Why do they use an ERV who’s had an ongoing relationship with Industrial heat since 2012. Rossi shoul question this.

          Not Really, I think Industrial heats purpose of using someone with known association to them is to limit external exposure. The more people involved, the more likely information will leak out…

  • PappyYokum

    Has Penon made any public statements regarding the plant or his report since he provided copies to Rossi and IH?

  • Something stinks about IH’s position. We saw testers who were blurred in photo’s back in Italy that turned out to be testers for IH. IH half-hired a “referee”. It seems they were very careful to not simply go by Rossi’s claims. Who would hand over 10 mil over somebody’s claims without thoroughly testing??? It all seemed set up to have third parties test to be on the safe side and sell to investors based on thorough testing. Why should any of this hinge on Rossi’s claims.

    • they simply cannot reproduce.

      Will you buy a magic fishing cane after someone show you nice fishes…
      and then when you try to fish, it does not work …

      • Ged

        But they built the plant, and the ERV they chose tested it independently of their own people who also tested it (and praised it). So that line of reasoning holds no water based on our current evidence, unless IH produces a better defense.

        • as fulvio fabiani said, Rossi give the secret powder and IH only make the heater.

          Rossi never gave the recipe and this was predictable, and this make the agreement void.
          IH paid for a partnership wher they could use the IP in exchange of funding the researsh effort of Rossi.

          as far as I know, this is an honest exchange, but it is too much for someone who don’t trust anybody…

          maybe I’m wrong, but from all we read, this is the best and predictable explanation.

          • Rossi has contradicted this. IIRC he did state that he showed Darden and Vaughn how to bake the cake, including the secret frosting. I’d have to search for it, but I remember him stating it multiple times.

            Of course, Rossi says…. but though I’d mention it.

          • yes, and that is the problem.

            if He have the recipe, why is IH so angry, not to pay?
            He have access to all technology, current and derived to use it in US & china…
            he can make hundreds of billion, so why mon on 100Mn…

            do you imagine Rossi is able to give the recipe to someone before being fully paid ?

            maybe I’m wrong.

          • Could be E-Cat X/direct electricity is the new must have and Rossi is withholding it.

            My reading of the agreement is that IH would be entitled to it. But Rossi made a big deal about shooing everyone out and protecting the new IP for LC.

          • Omega Z

            The “shooing everyone out” was until a petent could be written and filed. As to handing over all the IP on the E-cat X/Q, How can you do that when still R&D.

            Holding up payment for that reason would make no sense. It would be no different then saying, I’m not paying up until you give me your big breakthrough that you’ll come up with next year. You could forever delay payment.

          • wpj

            Yes, it is in the statements of his in one of the recent posts.

            Italians due have a term which translates as “manuality” where you have to be physically there and hold people’s hands rather than just having it written down or shown. I had to do this several times when transferring a process to plant as they just could not do it correctly.

          • wpj

            Hank Mills:
            They prepared everything, the charges, the body of the reactor EVERYTHING !!!.
            I just teached to them what to do.
            They never used anything pre-prepared by Leonardo Corp.

      • I wouldn’t start asking for investors to buy magic fishing canes if they didn’t work.

        • but the fishing cane works…
          fish are nice ,and it works.
          but rossi put some secret sauce on the hook, and IH don’t have the recipe.

          Rossi want to control, and IH cannot take the risk, at least for their investor.
          If it is true and I am Woodford, I would ask Darden to obtain the recipe or get back my money, for other serious scientists who understand what is a license and what is cooperation.

  • Something stinks about IH’s position. We saw testers who were blurred in photo’s back in Italy that turned out to be testers for IH. IH half-hired a “referee”. It seems they were very careful to not simply go by Rossi’s claims. Who would hand over 10 mil over somebody’s claims without thoroughly testing??? It all seemed set up to have third parties test to be on the safe side and sell to investors based on thorough testing. Why should any of this hinge on Rossi’s claims.

    • they simply cannot reproduce.

      Will you buy a magic fishing cane after someone show you nice fishes…
      and then when you try to fish, it does not work …

      • Ged

        But they built the plant, and the ERV they chose tested it independently of their own people who also tested it (and praised it). So that line of reasoning holds no water based on our current evidence, unless IH produces a better defense.

        • as fulvio fabiani said, Rossi give the secret powder and IH only make the heater.

          Rossi never gave the recipe and this was predictable, and this make the agreement void.
          IH paid for a partnership wher they could use the IP in exchange of funding the researsh effort of Rossi.

          as far as I know, this is an honest exchange, but it is too much for someone who don’t trust anybody…

          maybe I’m wrong, but from all we read, this is the best and predictable explanation.

          • Rossi has contradicted this. IIRC he did state that he showed Darden and Vaughn how to bake the cake, including the secret frosting. I’d have to search for it, but I remember him stating it multiple times.

            Of course, Rossi says…. but thought I’d mention it.

          • yes, and that is the problem.

            if He have the recipe, why is IH so angry, not to pay?
            He have access to all technology, current and derived to use it in US & china…
            he can make hundreds of billion, so why mon on 100Mn…

            do you imagine Rossi is able to give the recipe to someone before being fully paid ?

            maybe I’m wrong.

          • Could be E-Cat X/direct electricity is the new must have and Rossi is withholding it.

            My reading of the agreement is that IH would be entitled to it. But Rossi made a big deal about shooing everyone out and protecting the new IP for LC.

          • Omega Z

            The “shooing everyone out” was until a petent could be written and filed. As to handing over all the IP on the E-cat X/Q, How can you do that when still R&D.

            Holding up payment for that reason would make no sense. It would be no different then saying, I’m not paying up until you give me your big breakthrough that you’ll come up with next year. You could forever delay payment.

          • wpj

            Yes, it is in the statements of his in one of the recent posts.

            Italians due have a term which translates as “manuality” where you have to be physically there and hold people’s hands rather than just having it written down or shown. I had to do this several times when transferring a process to plant as they just could not do it correctly.

          • wpj

            Hank Mills:
            They prepared everything, the charges, the body of the reactor EVERYTHING !!!.
            I just teached to them what to do.
            They never used anything pre-prepared by Leonardo Corp.

      • Steve Swatman

        I think they can reproduce, but they have no idea how to SSM, which makes their cop 4-6-11.4 seems pitiful compared to COP 50+ or the “Quark”.

      • I wouldn’t start asking for investors to buy magic fishing canes if they didn’t work.

        • but the fishing cane works…
          fish are nice ,and it works.
          but rossi put some secret sauce on the hook, and IH don’t have the recipe.

          Rossi want to control, and IH cannot take the risk, at least for their investor.
          If it is true and I am Woodford, I would ask Darden to obtain the recipe or get back my money, for other serious scientists who understand what is a license and what is cooperation.

  • tuder

    There might be some misunderstanding about the “doctorate” degree of the ERV mentioned by Rossi. What Rossi refers to is most likely the (old) “laurea degree” in the Italian academic system – which was a sort of bachelor and Master combined. So it is not a Ph.D. degree or “doctorate” as is commonly referred to in the UK or US

    • Mike

      Is that also the degree that A. Rossi has? A lot of people put Dr. in ahead of his name, including Soky.

      • wpj

        Doctori is just a term that was used out of respect for university graduates in the old days before they were two a penny.

      • tuder

        yes same thing.

    • Mike

      A quick search
      http://coldfusionnow.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/105322688-Penon4-1.pdf
      Penon uses the title M.Eng himself in an e-cat test report from 2012.

  • Fibber McGourlick

    What is the latest on when the ERV will be made public?
    Why wouldn’t Mr. Rossi want to have it published sooner (right now) than later?

    • Rossi wants it out but is awaiting guidance from his lawyer.

      Mats Lewan indicated the latest rumor is that the report will not be published publicly until the case moves forward in approximately 1 to 2 months.

      ….. and we wait.

      • Mats002

        Oh what will be of Mats’ symposium? He needs the ERV report in time to be able to pull it through!

        Maybe some fruitful replications from me356 and hopefully MFMP but otherwize what can clear the fog?

        • If I were him I’d delay it indefinitely. Maybe if MFMP sees another signal I’d run with it, but as far as IH and Rossi go it’s going to be a circus for awhile.

  • Fibber McGourlick

    What is the latest on when the ERV will be made public?
    Why wouldn’t Mr. Rossi want to have it published sooner (right now) than later?

    • Rossi wants it out but is awaiting guidance from his lawyer.

      Mats Lewan indicated the latest rumor is that the report will not be published publicly until the case moves forward in approximately 1 to 2 months.

      ….. and we wait.

      • Mats002

        Oh what will be of Mats’ symposium? He needs the ERV report in time to be able to pull it through!

        Maybe some fruitful replications from me356 and hopefully MFMP but otherwize what can clear the fog?

        • If I were him I’d delay it indefinitely. Maybe if MFMP sees another signal I’d run with it, but as far as IH and Rossi go it’s going to be a circus for awhile.

  • SteveA

    Reasons for IH to lie and try to get out of the deal: They got the technology after the first $10mil spent, so why spend another $90 when they can use it to flood the market. Underhanded by them, but they got Rossi to sign a bad deal & maybe tried to push him to break it so they don’t have to pay.

    Reasons for Rossi to lie and try to get out of the deal: He surmised that IH wasn’t going to pay & now doesn’t have much leverage, so he hit them with a proactive suit. Or, he has made great improvements in Ecat technology since the deal was signed. He doesn’t want IH to have ownership rights to this based on the previous deal. If the deal is declared null & void then the technology is his.

    Or, there are lies coming from every direction and the thing really doesn’t work as claimed. What really happened? Who the hell knows, but I hope it is resolved soon. If it works as claimed there will be more than enough money for everyone involved, so kiss & make up so we can get these in consumers’ hands.

  • Oystein Lande

    Industrial Heat needs to answer the complaint within April.26. If not they may loose…

    “If the Defendant doesn’t answer the Complaint, the court may enter a default judgment against the Defendant. If the Answer contains a counterclaim or a third-party complaint, the party against whom that claim is made also has to answer within a certain time.”

    Ref.
    http://boyerlawfirm.com/practice-areas/litigation/florida-civil-litigation/

    • If they don’t answer we’ll know that all they wanted to do was delay payment and muddy the waters.

      • I have no doubts that they’ll answer with a counter claim, as there’s nothing to lose by doing this and it would have the effect of forcing Rossi onto the defensive. I think they’ll go for the simple claim that Rossi didn’t hand over all the goods, and what he has given them can’t be replicated. Who is to say otherwise, as all replication information is under IH’s control.

        • I expect that you’ll be proven right.

    • Anon2012_2014

      Might be different in US District Court, but that is the general idea. Finite time to answer the complaint or ask for an extension. I am certain that IH has a law team working long hours drafting the answer and the counterclaim. Best part is we get to read them on Pacer as they will be public. Pacer gives us a great seat for the trial.

      • US_Citizen71

        I’m not sure if it will be in US District Court Section 16.10 of the agreement “Governing Law and Dispute Resolution. This Agreement shall be construed and enforced under the laws of the State of Florida without regard to the conflicts of law principles thereof that would defer to or result in the application of the substantive laws of another jurisdiction. Any controversy or claim arising out of or relating to this Agreement, or the breach thereof, shall be settled exclusively by the Court of Miami, Florida, USA.”

        • Anon2012_2014

          Don’t know that part of the law. Hope it says in US District Court and is not remanded to whatever the Florida State judicial trial court is called, as Pacer is excellent.

  • SteveA

    Reasons for IH to lie and try to get out of the deal: They got the technology after the first $10mil spent, so why spend another $90 when they can use it to flood the market. Underhanded by them, but they got Rossi to sign a bad deal & maybe tried to push him to break it so they don’t have to pay.

    Reasons for Rossi to lie and try to get out of the deal: He surmised that IH wasn’t going to pay & now doesn’t have much leverage, so he hit them with a proactive suit. Or, he has made great improvements in Ecat technology since the deal was signed. He doesn’t want IH to have ownership rights to this based on the previous deal. If the deal is declared null & void then the technology is his.

    Or, there are lies coming from every direction and the thing really doesn’t work as claimed. What really happened? Who the hell knows, but I hope it is resolved soon. If it works as claimed there will be more than enough money for everyone involved, so kiss & make up so we can get these in consumers’ hands.

  • Oystein Lande

    Industrial Heat needs to answer the complaint within April.26. If not they may loose…

    “If the Defendant doesn’t answer the Complaint, the court may enter a default judgment against the Defendant. If the Answer contains a counterclaim or a third-party complaint, the party against whom that claim is made also has to answer within a certain time.”

    Ref.
    http://boyerlawfirm.com/practice-areas/litigation/florida-civil-litigation/

    • If they don’t answer we’ll know that all they wanted to do was delay payment and muddy the waters.

      • I have no doubts at all that they’ll answer with a counter claim at the last minute, as there’s nothing to lose by doing this and it would have the effect of forcing Rossi onto the defensive. I think they’ll go for the simple claim that Rossi didn’t hand over all the goods, and what he has given them can’t be replicated. Who is to say otherwise, as all ‘in house’ replication information is under IH’s control.

        • I expect that you’ll be proven right.

    • Anon2012_2014

      Might be different in US District Court, but that is the general idea. Finite time to answer the complaint or ask for an extension. I am certain that IH has a law team working long hours drafting the answer and the counterclaim. Best part is we get to read them on Pacer as they will be public. Pacer gives us a great seat for the trial.

      • US_Citizen71

        I’m not sure if it will be in US District Court Section 16.10 of the agreement “Governing Law and Dispute Resolution. This Agreement shall be construed and enforced under the laws of the State of Florida without regard to the conflicts of law principles thereof that would defer to or result in the application of the substantive laws of another jurisdiction. Any controversy or claim arising out of or relating to this Agreement, or the breach thereof, shall be settled exclusively by the Court of Miami, Florida, USA.”

        • Anon2012_2014

          Don’t know that part of the law. Hope it says in US District Court and is not remanded to whatever the Florida State judicial trial court is called, as Pacer is excellent.

  • Observer

    The flaw of most venture capitalists is that they value the invention over the inventor. Companies want their human resources to be interchangeable and easily replaceable, and thus they created the “SOP”. If they could, no one below top management would ever make an independent decision. Relying on “talent” scares them to death.

    After dealing with the renownedly difficult to get along with Andrea Rossi, IH apparently decided to take the E-Cat IP and give it to engineers/scientists who are easier to control. What they did not take into account is that Rossi is constantly improving his invention, making what they initially had in their hands nearly worthless (COP 2.5 vs COP 50).

    I have often heard that “No one is irreplaceable”. In my opinion, that is management wishful thinking.

    • Pekka Janhunen

      Wishful thinking which may turn to fistful sinking:-)

    • Rossi Fan

      Sorry I do not see a CEO worrying about “how to control” an employee. CEOs are greedy people. They worry about making lots of money not having a gifted talented employee “under my thumb”. This is a clear case of a guy doing a job and not getting paid. Netflix has an excellent series: American Genius. Each episode depicts a drama about the invention process in American history. This case reminds me of Tesla/Westinghouse. Tesla worked out an agreement that Westinghouse could not live up to.

      • what a pile of cliché

        what you describe is bad managers.
        some boss, managers, entrepreneurs, ask for rebel employees, provided they are creative and solve problems, find opportunities, even if it is rare.

        if it was as you say, I would have been fired since long.

      • SG

        Upvote for reference to the American Genius series. Some great programming there, and I highly recommend it.

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      What! They “value the invention over the inventor” this for some reason reminds me of those poor bankers who must endure no increase in their bonuses after causing our economy to tank. “They” the money managers, deserve maybe 10%, the inventor is the invention and deserves the 90%.

      • psi2u2

        But 90% of what? That’s the real problem. Everything going forward? Without building any factories or hiring any workers? The inventor needs the businessman or woman to implement the vision of the invention.

        • Bernie Koppenhofer

          Pretty simple, 90% of the profits after all expenses.

          • Omega Z

            With your math, there would be no product. Business as ever present costs upkeep and debt to be repaid with interest. However, the inventor needs compensated as well and besides an up front fee, a 2% to 5% royalty.

          • Bernie Koppenhofer

            Omega Z: What? You said, “ever present costs upkeep and debt to be repaid with interest” Those are expenses, make a product, add up all the expenses to make that product, sell the product, what is left is profit to be shared 90% to the inventor, 10% by those providing the money. Now, 90% go to money interests, 10% go the inventor if he is not cheated out of that share.

          • Omega Z

            Bernie,

            Many things people here at ECW say, I can see, and even heard myself say years ago when I was younger. You couldn’t convince me otherwise. With age and personal experiance, I realize I was wrong. People have a right to a reasonable ROI and without it, they will not invest. If they do not invest, there will be no product.

            NOW, Lets look at what you propose. Corporate makes a 10% profit. 1/3rd goes to taxes. 1/3rd goes to investors. 1/3rd is rolled over into cash flow to keep operations going and unexpected costs or expansion.

            There is no profit, thus Rossi recieves nothing. No Joke, People have been legally swindled this way. Legal because of how it’s framed in context.

            My Way or (The normal process), Rossi gets 2% to 5% of out the door Factory Gross sales. Guaranteed as long as there are sales. Even if the Corporation loses a Billion$, irregardless, Rossi gets his share of gross sales. He can’t lose even if the corporation goes bust.

            Note that compensated in this manner and at 5%, Rossi’s compensation would be comparable to 1/3rd of gross profit or near 60% of net profit as his comes before and separate from everyone else involved. And if there are No profits, Rossi still gets his percent of gross sales..

            So, No 90% but also no risk.

          • Bernie Koppenhofer

            We are talking about two different subjects. I am talking about fairness for the inventor/creator, you are talking about general fairness, taxes etc. of our general system. Basically I am saying the creator/inventor gets screwed because greedy Crony Capitalists take most if not all economic benefits of the inventors IP. I know how our economy works, it requires investment of money, and that is all well and good, but supplying money should not allow you to take 90-100 percent of the economic benefits of the inventor/creators hard work.

          • Bernie Koppenhofer

            Right, I am a 76 year old retired financial controller.

    • Anon2012_2014

      I think most VCs bet on the entrepreneur over the business. People make money for the VCs. They want visionaries with high energy and drive. Kind of like Rossi. But they need to not renege on their deal to make money for the investors who backed them.

      • that is clearly what I learned.
        Startup often pivot and their business plan is very far from what happens.

        the VC bet on a spirit, talent, competence.
        they know it is risky and that they will obtain at best something very different what what they predict, good or bad

  • Observer

    The flaw of most venture capitalists is that they value the invention over the inventor. Companies want their human resources to be interchangeable and easily replaceable, and thus they created the “SOP”. If they could, no one below top management would ever make an independent decision. Relying on “talent” scares them to death.

    After dealing with the renownedly difficult to get along with Andrea Rossi, IH apparently decided to take the E-Cat IP and give it to engineers/scientists who are easier to control. What they did not take into account is that Rossi is constantly improving his invention, making what they initially had in their hands nearly worthless (COP 2.5 vs COP 50).

    I have often heard that “No one is irreplaceable”. In my opinion, that is management wishful thinking.

    • Pekka Janhunen

      Wishful thinking which may turn to fistful sinking:-)

    • Rossi Fan

      Sorry I do not see a CEO worrying about “how to control” an employee. CEOs are greedy people. They worry about making lots of money not having a gifted talented employee “under my thumb”. This is a clear case of a guy doing a job and not getting paid. Netflix has an excellent series: American Genius. Each episode depicts a drama about the invention process in American history. This case reminds me of Tesla/Westinghouse. Tesla worked out an agreement that Westinghouse could not live up to.

      • what a pile of cliché

        what you describe is bad managers.
        some boss, managers, entrepreneurs, ask for rebel employees, provided they are creative and solve problems, find opportunities, even if it is rare.

        if it was as you say, I would have been fired since long.

      • SG

        Upvote for reference to the American Genius series. Some great programming there, and I highly recommend it.

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      What! They “value the invention over the inventor” this for some reason reminds me of those poor bankers who must endure no increase in their bonuses after causing our economy to tank. “They” the money managers, deserve maybe 10%, the inventor is the invention and deserves the 90%.

      • psi2u2

        But 90% of what? That’s the real problem. Everything going forward? Without building any factories or hiring any workers? The inventor needs the businessman or woman to implement the vision of the invention, and all the other workers who will invest time and energy to bring products to market and sell them.

        • Bernie Koppenhofer

          Pretty simple, 90% of the profits after all expenses.

          • Omega Z

            With your math, there would be no product. Business as ever present costs upkeep and debt to be repaid with interest. However, the inventor needs compensated as well and besides an up front fee, a 2% to 5% royalty.

          • Bernie Koppenhofer

            Omega Z: What? You said, “ever present costs upkeep and debt to be repaid with interest” Those are expenses, make a product, add up all the expenses to make that product, sell the product, what is left is profit to be shared 90% to the inventor, 10% by those providing the money. Now, 90% go to money interests, 10% go the inventor if he is not cheated out of that share.

          • Omega Z

            Bernie,

            Many things people here at ECW say, I can see, and even heard myself say years ago when I was younger. You couldn’t convince me otherwise. With age and personal experiance, I realize I was wrong. People have a right to a reasonable ROI and without it, they will not invest. If they do not invest, there will be no product.

            NOW, Lets look at what you propose. Corporate makes a 10% profit. 1/3rd goes to taxes. 1/3rd goes to investors. 1/3rd is rolled over into cash flow to keep operations going and unexpected costs or expansion.

            There is no profit, thus Rossi recieves nothing. No Joke, People have been legally swindled this way. Legal because of how it’s framed in context.

            My Way or (The normal process), Rossi gets 2% to 5% of out the door Factory Gross sales. Guaranteed as long as there are sales. Even if the Corporation loses a Billion$, irregardless, Rossi gets his share of gross sales. He can’t lose even if the corporation goes bust.

            Note that compensated in this manner and at 5%, Rossi’s compensation would be comparable to 1/3rd of gross profit or near 60% of net profit as his comes before and separate from everyone else involved. And if there are No profits, Rossi still gets his percent of gross sales..

            So, No 90% but also no risk.

          • Bernie Koppenhofer

            We are talking about two different subjects. I am talking about fairness for the inventor/creator, you are talking about general fairness, taxes etc. of our general system. Basically I am saying the creator/inventor gets screwed because greedy Crony Capitalists take most if not all economic benefits of the inventors IP. I know how our economy works, it requires investment of money, and that is all well and good, but supplying money should not allow you to take 90-100 percent of the economic benefits of the inventor/creators hard work.

          • Bernie Koppenhofer

            Right, I am a 76 year old retired financial controller.

    • Anon2012_2014

      I think most VCs bet on the entrepreneur over the business. People make money for the VCs. They want visionaries with high energy and drive. Kind of like Rossi. But they need to not renege on their deal to make money for the investors who backed them.

      • that is clearly what I learned.
        Startup often pivot and their business plan is very far from what happens.

        the VC bet on a spirit, talent, competence.
        they know it is risky and that they will obtain at best something very different what what they predict, good or bad

  • Brokeeper

    Thanks – hehe.

    • psi2u2

      Don’t put words into my mouth, guy. You were the only one in this conversation who was making claims about what a jury would or would not do. I called you on it. I still call you on it.

  • AdrianAshfield

    I think Ed Storms comment below may explain it. IH have not said the 1 MW did not work but that they were not able to duplicate the results. So the fight maybe about the IP. It can’t be as black and white as it appears: IH must have some good argument.

    EDMUND STORMS’ OPINION:

    -We all agree that the LENR process is real. We all agree that significant
    excess energy can be made when unknown and rarely produced conditions
    are applied to certain materials. I think we all can agree that the
    LENR effect can operate in NiH just as it operates in PdD. The basic
    question is whether Rossi found a way to cause significant energy to be
    made by LENR using NiH. All of his actions make sense If we assume he
    was successful.

    Put
    yourself in his shoes. You discover a heat source worth trillions but
    can not get patent protection for your idea. Your only protection is
    secrecy. Once the successful recipe is generally known, you have lost
    any claim to financial reward. The amount of money involved eliminates
    trust being part of any future business relationship. Consequently,
    Rossi is forced to play a very dangerous and difficult game involving
    deception and in some cases lying. This problem would not exist if
    patent protection were available.

    I
    predict this same problem will affect all efforts to commercialize the
    LENR effect. A person only has two choices. If he finds a method to
    make a material nuclear active, he either has to make it know to the
    public and then gain mainly fame (aka Tesla), or keep it secret while
    trying to raise money to create a commercial product on your own.
    Naturally, some exaggeration, fraud, and lying would be involved because
    people do not like to give money without knowing the secret, which
    cannot be revealed. I do not excuse or support Rossi, but I do
    understand his problem. The problem lies squarely in the patent office
    and the DOE. A no win situation has been created by the skeptics.

    I
    believe Rossi made sure he revealed nothing of value about his process
    and provided false leads to keep people from finding his method. I
    believe he had not mastered the method well enough for commercial use
    and needed money to do this. IH provided some of this money, but
    without being told the secret method to activate the material. IH does
    not want to spend 89M$ unless they know the secret, which is reasonable
    but contrary to Rossi’s self-interest. So we will see the mud fly and
    watch one more father being eaten alive.

    Meanwhile, the CO2 in the air keeps rising and the fission reactors keep getting older and more brittle.

    http://egooutpeters.blogspot.ro/2016/04/apr-12-2016-very-short-interview-with.html

    • The fight over IP and money scenario has far fewer holes in it than the Industrial Heat never believed it worked scenario, IMO.

      Right now there is so much ambiguity though that the only thing I’m truly certain of is that we’re all wrong in one way or another, including Storms.

      • Ged

        I second your opinion on both counts.

      • ggummm

        The fight over ip and money scenario has a huge hole in it: “infinite” energy, as rossi has put it, makes greed obsolete. So where is the point in all this fighting about who will be the first to bring to the market the means of their self destruction?

        • Even if I agreed with you that very inexpensive energy would make greed obsolete, which I don’t, I would argue with your contention that the players would not jockey for market position on the simple grounds that even the most optimistic adoption schedule for this new technology would take at least a generation for it to spread throughout the entire economy.

          During that time, money still matters and a lot of people will seek as much of it as they can. Not to mention the power that goes along with it.

        • Bernie Koppenhofer

          It is all about who is going to control the new fire, is it going to be a true “free market” or is it going to be controlled by crony capitalists. If it is controlled by the later, we can expect a very slow roll out and huge prices at the end of the roll out, and huge profits for the crony capitalists. How soon we forget about the bankers who caused our economy to tank.

          • Anon2012_2014

            “who is going to control the new fire, is it going to be a true “free market” or is it going to be controlled by crony capitalists”

            Bernie, I agree that monopolist using patents could slow the roll out and jack up the prices.

            But that is a problem with our intellectual property regime, not with the agents (called companies, inventors or investors) who pursue monopoly rents under the rules that we have all agreed to.

            I think patents, copyrights, and trade secrets are WAY too long. Most patents should last only 7 years, not the new 20 years. Some, like drugs, maybe should only last 3 to 5 years. Copyrights should end after something like 20 years in most cases. Instead, we have monopoly rentiers absorbing value from society with little or no value add.

            But you’re implying that Mr. Rossi is a better rentier than Mr. Darden. They are the same to me and have the same “enlightened” self interest. I don’t think for a second that a Mr. Rossi won’t charge the same billions of dollars for his products as would a Mr. Darden. It is not as if Rossi has endowed his intellectual property into a non-profit for the benefit of earth. We know he bought condos with some cash flow. What will he do with billions? Maybe spend it. Maybe give it to charity. Maybe buy politicians like the Koch Brothers. Who knows. I don’t think it is efficient to concentrate so much monopoly rents into the hands of anyone, not even Rossi as much as we might like his work on his project. This is all of our lives we are dealing with after all.

          • Bernie Koppenhofer

            Here is a definition of Crony Capitalism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crony_capitalism Your post tells me you do not understand the situation, you said “under the rules that we have all agreed to”, Crony Capitalists make the rules, “we” do not agree to anything. How do you think we ended up with a system that allowed bankers to sell worthless bonds; they made the rules. The same thing has happened to our patent system, how do you think our patent legal system allows patent raiders; they made the rules. You said Rossi and IH “are the same to me”, how can you say that one is the inventor/creator the other has not created anything, but is trying to control Rossi’s IP without paying him!

          • Anon2012_2014

            “You said Rossi and IH “are the same to me”, how can you say that one is the inventor/creator the other has not created anything”

            Both take advantage of the patent monopoly. I dislike patents as I think they slow down society’s progress. They are an invention from 13th century England whose time has passed, as has representative (as opposed to direct voting) democracy.

            You can run for public office to change the laws. I give up.

          • psi2u2

            Perhaps, but that still does not make them “the same” in the kind of larger sense your prior post might have suggested. They are the same, but they are also very different, and I think that difference is what Bernie is defending.

          • Anon2012_2014

            I guess the same in the sense that Bill Gates and Steve Jobs are the same. I see the same high price for computers that should have cost $200. Once they get the monopoly, they all charge high rents. I really don’t see the VC investor different than Steve Jobs once they get the monopoly rents. Sorry.

          • Bernie Koppenhofer

            I accept your surrender.

          • Michael W Wolf

            We already knew that. IH seems to deny it.

          • They have not denied it. They only said they could not substantiate Rossis claims. Completely different thing

          • bachcole

            Clarity of thought is so important, particularly now in these circumstances.

          • Brent Buckner

            Michael W Wolf wrote that “IH seems to deny it” not that “IH denies it”. Completely different thing!
            😀

          • So you agree to one person writing a report, then secretly you write a different report so that you can refute the person you agreed to have write the report. That’s corrupt.

          • The you (or your agents) put it about to some ‘thought leaders’ that this is the real deal – some very dirty tactics seem to be emerging.

          • Bruce__H

            That’s not corrupt.

          • Jarea

            That is playing dirty. IH signed a contract with one ERV that was agreed by the two interested sides.
            Other reports can include views that are biased since are prepared without agreement of independence.

          • Mark Underwood

            Let’s say: Industrial Heat agrees to have Penon as the ERV guy because he has a history with eCat and is known to be able to keep things under wraps. But secretly IH is not entirely confident that Penon is getting it right, so they have at least one of their own people checking on things, specifically Penon’s methods of quantifying energy consumption. This is entirely OK, because Rossi agreed to have IH people check the place. Heck IH people helped build the place.

            So the question becomes, did Penon get it right, or did IH people (namely Barry White?), who quietly critiqued the process and presumably saw a fatal flaw, get it right? I hope the former. I believe the former. I find it easier to believe that IH’s objection to the ERV is spurious, than the ERV is fatally flawed. That is because I find it hard to believe that a smart guy like Penon could get it wrong for so long, or especially that that Rossi himself could have fooled himself for years. He’s had too much experience and seen too many things. He surely knows how to distinguish mundane, expected, no-show outcomes from ‘wow’ results like very prolonged self sustain modes.

            We’ll see in due time.

          • Omega Z

            I haven’t the means to manufacture and market a product if I invented something. If Not for patents, I would have no interest in creating something that people would want only so those with more wealth could just take it and become wealthier while I struggle to get by. Which is what happens without patents. Of which the purpose of patents is to protect the little guy..

          • Omega Z

            ->”You need scarcity to perpetuate greed”
            No offense, but that is where you are wrong.
            Greed and envy do not need scarcity to exist.
            It will exist even in a world of plenty.

          • Omega Z

            Patents do not restrain the market. It provides temporary limited protection that encourages investment. It also keeps big money from just taking you Intelectual work and leaving you with nothing for all your hard work and investment.

            It also encourages diversity and innovation. I can’t copy Your work, but I can create my version of it. Which many times leads to improvements and cheaper and better product.

        • Omega Z

          Energy is just 1 part of the equation It is not the answer to all problems. And, greed will never be obsolete. It is infinite…

    • LuFong

      I agree that Rossi did not turn over all his IP and this could be a sticking point in the civil suit. I think once Rossi completed the Validation test (May 2013), he was required to turn over his IP. But at that point he only had $11M of the $100.5M in hand and the prospects of a risky General Performance Test (GPT) that could fail for any number of reasons, including IH dragging their heels.

      So I do not believe Rossi turned over everything needed to achieve total success for the GPT because he could be out his IP for a mere $11M. And of course there were ongoing changes that probably only Rossi knew about. For example he did say he developed the fuel mixture to last one year (with 4 different recipes). In the meantime IH naturally tried to substantiate the IP but could not substantially achieve the performance expected if at all. One would expect that after 3 years of trying with explicit direction from Rossi they would be successful so it’s clear (to me) that Rossi did not turn everything over.

      So IH naturally dragged their feet on the GPT some more. Finally Rossi became proactive and produced the customer and single-handedly and rather independently ran the test. By then the requirement that Rossi support IH for at least one year (LA section 13.1) had long ran out (since it didn’t even start till Feb 2015) so IH was left with nothing. But IH saw that it was working so they naturally proceeded to sell assuming that at some point they would get it right or Rossi will clue them in.

      • AdrianAshfield

        Yes, as I said that is one logical conclusion but we will have to wait and see what IH says.

        Meanwhile, from Rossi’s claim, IH has not been playing fair with taking out patents and starting shell companies. I can see that Rossi, already twice burnt, might be suspicious.

        • LuFong

          They are trying to make lemonade out of lemons? Frankly the patents that Rossi produced as being made without his signature don’t seem like much to me–obvious application with no real invention. The system diagram drawn of his 1MW plant looks like some high-school kid did it. But IH probably feels that they have a right to that as much as Rossi since they paid Rossi $11M.

        • Anon2012_2014

          The patents that Rossi has provided us are in his name, sometimes jointly with an IH nominee who may have actually written the patent or provided a portion of the inventive idea. (These things take time to write if you have ever worked on one).

          Where does it say in the contract that IH may not file a patent on behalf of the joint venture relationship between IH and Rossi? My reading says that it was to be expected that they would file patents together.

          Waiting for the answer to the complaint and the counterclaims. Should be 14 more days.

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      Good post Dr. Storms, thank you. I agree Rossi is toeing the line in order to keep his IP. It seems to me a lot of people are treating the “License Agreement” like a “Sales agreement” but it is still titled “License Agreement”. I know the word “assign” is a problem, but the agreement does say “assign with respect to (only) the territory”. In my opinion it does not give IH the right to use the IP to create their own patents and IP and then use this “new” IP to sell to the whole world. I still have hope IH and Rossi can reach an agreement on what IH can and cannot do with Rossi IP.

      • Brent Buckner

        Perhaps at some point we’ll also get some clarity as to the arrangements respective of Rossi’s time as “Chief Scientist” at IH.

        • US_Citizen71

          Even if Rossi was IH Chief Scientist for a time period the contract they signed with Leonardo states any IP Rossi comes up with in regards to the E-Cat is Leonardo property. Section 13.4 you made me read it enough I won’t forget it.

          • Brent Buckner

            It could be that an agreement respective of being Chief Scientist (that would have been signed a later date than the License Agreement) contained a modification to that situation. IH might even try to make claims respective of a scientist being “hired to invent” or “shop rights” (e.g. http://www.martindale.com/labor-employment-law/article_Nexsen-Pruet-LLC_1358040.htm ).

          • US_Citizen71

            That might work if the agreement was just with Rossi, but the agreement was with Leonardo as well and Leonardo is comprised of more individuals than just Rossi. The agreement also states that they were interested in hiring Rossi not that they would. Need more data and evidence to support that Rossi was ever part of IH as of now nothing has been shown for certain that he was.

          • Brent Buckner

            Agreed respective of Leonardo.

            Regarding Rossi having been Chief Scientist of IH, all that we have is Rossi’s written claims (e.g. http://www.e-catworld.com/2014/01/27/rossi-confirms-position-at-industrial-heat-llc/ )

          • US_Citizen71

            To place it in history of what we knew at the time. http://www.e-catworld.com/2013/12/29/rossi-provides-more-explosive-e-cat-information/

            This was during the destructive HotCat tests. This is part of the IP transfer of the license agreement. So maybe he was working for them at that time, that doesn’t mean that it continued until the filing of the lawsuit. It will be a case what did he know or discover when.

          • Brent Buckner

            Agreed!

          • Omega Z

            In Mats interview with Fulvio Fabiani, Fabiani also stated that Rossi was the chief scientist. And that he was employed by Industrial heat to be Rossi’s right hand man, as well as left hand and legs. I don’t think this is at question.

          • US_Citizen71

            That wouldn’t change the agreement with Leonardo, the agreement specifically calls Rossi out by name. I did not see any amendment to the agreement changing that provision.

          • Omega Z

            It would appear that Rossi was to be the Chief Scientist only during the 1 year test. The 1 year test was a continuance of the original signed agreement of milestones.

            Milestone 1)- 1.5 M$ Achieved
            Milestone 2)- 10 M$ Achieved
            Milestone 3)- 89 M$ In Question

            This does not entail “hired to invent” or “shop rights” But achieving Milestones.

            The agreement already provides that Industrial heat has license of right to manufacture and market additional R&D advancements by Leonardo. Likely as not, the full agreement includes Royalties per wholesale cost. The average arrangement is around 2%. No royalties would be extremely unusual, especially considering the significance of the technology. 100 M$ would be peanuts.

            Possibly, considering the weak statement from IH, the issue or disagreement isn’t if the e-cat works with more then acceptable COP, But whether it has (#3) achieved industrial readiness. If not well spelled out in the contract, this becomes an issue of personal perspective. Rossi says yes. Darden says no.

          • Brent Buckner

            We’ll see what IH claims. I’m not confident that it won’t be more complex than you posit, considering such elements as it seeming to me that Fabiani was participating in E-Cat X R&D under direction of Rossi and that any separate agreement respective of Rossi’s role as Chief Scientist may have issues much as the License Agreement seems to.

    • builditnow

      I agree with Ed Storms:
      Having observed the cat and mouse game between investors and inventors in silly con valley for the last 26 years, including during the dot bomb era, the successful cases are when both sides don’t give up full power to the other. This means that IH withholds $89 million, but, Rossi also has to withhold some secret sauce such that Rossi can force IH to pay the $89 million and abide by the contract. Rossi would be in a weak position if all he has is the contract and the word of an independent certifier against the combined financial power of IH, Darden, Cherochee.

      I’ve seen several cases up close and personal where the inventor gave up too much of his power and then the investors effectively destroyed the invention by failing to understand it or running out of funds and selling off the invention in a fire sale to a company that had no clue how to further it.
      I’ve seen several cases where the inventor refused to give up sufficient power and these inventions also went nowhere as the investors did not feel secure.

      These games were played out with inventions that have a minuscule value compared to the E-Cat.
      Patents could be and were applied for.

      With the E-Cat, the game is at a whole other level.
      The value is immensely greater.
      Patents cannot be applied for.
      Most scientists think the E-Cat is impossible.
      There is a lot of powerful interested parties who could be actively attempting to suppress any LENR development.
      The media is not game to touch the subject except to refer to it as an example of failed science.

      In a situation like this, Rossi is forced to cleverly hold something back.
      IH / Darden likely have a real complaint, they cannot create working reactors independently of Rossi. Their first hand in the card game is to refuse to pay the $89 million. Rossi was already prepared to play his hand, go to court.

      Involving the courts could likely benefit both sides as it brings the power of the courts, and the enforcement of the US legal system to bear on the contract. This makes the contract much stronger for both sides as it becomes “pre-argued” and “pre-certified” by the courts, “before the big games begin” … so to speak.

      It is suspicious that Brillouin quickly produced a nickel hydrogen version of their reactor while having a connection to IH. Was there any technological sharing without Rossi’s permission? He needs to find out.

      With a court case settled, it then becomes a lot safer for Rossi to hand over the secret sauce, or, negotiate to remain in control of the secret sauce while giving IH all they need to go into production.

      • AdrianAshfield

        It’s $890 million….not 89 million
        Rossi has made it clear he wants to mass produce and sell E-Cats.

        The patent situation is a mess and his best hope is to get out there fast.
        He can do it in Europe if IH proves too sticky,
        It is in his interest to supply good units to IH or for them to build them if they don’t cheat. It will be impossible to keep how it works secret for long.

    • US_Citizen71

      The second amendment to the contract changed the design for the plant to a six pack of HotCats. – http://www.sifferkoll.se/sifferkoll/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Rossi_et_al_v_Darden_et_al__flsdce-16-21199__0001.4.pdf Looking back the HotCats being tested must have been prototype cores for the 1MW plant. – http://www.e-catworld.com/2013/12/29/rossi-provides-more-explosive-e-cat-information/ Were they designed that way to contain a dog bone on steroids? It looks like we knew more than we thought we did back then, but we just didn’t have context.

      • Ged

        It’s a long running series ;). Just hope it’s got a better ending than “Lost”.

        • LarryJ

          I absolutely loved the ending. I watched that series 3 times from front to back and enjoyed it every time, especially the way they ended such and enigmatic series. Endings, like music, are a question of taste and there is no accounting for taste. One man’s trash is another man’s treasure.

      • DrD

        Didn’t he end up with just four 250kW modules as thee 1MW (plus back-ups)?

        • US_Citizen71

          Yes that is the claim, but the amendment allowed Rossi to change the design as needed to get the results demanded by the test.

  • AdrianAshfield

    I think Ed Storms comment below may explain it. IH have not said the 1 MW did not work but that they were not able to duplicate the results. So the fight maybe about the IP. It can’t be as black and white as it appears: IH must have some good argument.

    EDMUND STORMS’ OPINION:

    -We all agree that the LENR process is real. We all agree that significant
    excess energy can be made when unknown and rarely produced conditions
    are applied to certain materials. I think we all can agree that the
    LENR effect can operate in NiH just as it operates in PdD. The basic
    question is whether Rossi found a way to cause significant energy to be
    made by LENR using NiH. All of his actions make sense If we assume he
    was successful.

    Put
    yourself in his shoes. You discover a heat source worth trillions but
    can not get patent protection for your idea. Your only protection is
    secrecy. Once the successful recipe is generally known, you have lost
    any claim to financial reward. The amount of money involved eliminates
    trust being part of any future business relationship. Consequently,
    Rossi is forced to play a very dangerous and difficult game involving
    deception and in some cases lying. This problem would not exist if
    patent protection were available.

    I
    predict this same problem will affect all efforts to commercialize the
    LENR effect. A person only has two choices. If he finds a method to
    make a material nuclear active, he either has to make it know to the
    public and then gain mainly fame (aka Tesla), or keep it secret while
    trying to raise money to create a commercial product on your own.
    Naturally, some exaggeration, fraud, and lying would be involved because
    people do not like to give money without knowing the secret, which
    cannot be revealed. I do not excuse or support Rossi, but I do
    understand his problem. The problem lies squarely in the patent office
    and the DOE. A no win situation has been created by the skeptics.

    I
    believe Rossi made sure he revealed nothing of value about his process
    and provided false leads to keep people from finding his method. I
    believe he had not mastered the method well enough for commercial use
    and needed money to do this. IH provided some of this money, but
    without being told the secret method to activate the material. IH does
    not want to spend 89M$ unless they know the secret, which is reasonable
    but contrary to Rossi’s self-interest. So we will see the mud fly and
    watch one more father being eaten alive.

    Meanwhile, the CO2 in the air keeps rising and the fission reactors keep getting older and more brittle.

    http://egooutpeters.blogspot.ro/2016/04/apr-12-2016-very-short-interview-with.html

    • The fight over IP and money scenario has far fewer holes in it than the Industrial Heat never believed it worked scenario, IMO.

      Right now there is so much ambiguity though that the only thing I’m truly certain of is that we’re all wrong in one way or another, including Storms.

      • Ged

        I second your opinion on both counts.

    • Alex Fenrick

      All of that is all good and well except it makes little difference as Rossi is contractually obligated to transfer all knowledge. If he did not do this for ANY reason…that is a breach of contract by all means and measure.

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        Let us talk about “good faith”. If Rossi gave IH a reactor that worked and they immediately started investing in Rossi competitors and showing them Rossi IP and even making a patent application based on Rossi IP that included another “inventor” and IH stated they were building a new “lab” not a manufacturing facility but a “lab”; this tells me they had no intention of completing the year long test and were trying to cheat Rossi out of 89 million. Greed, Power and Control!

        • Alex Fenrick

          Everything you just said is pure conjecture regarding the case with no basis in evidence. It also has nothing to do with the point in case of a judge and/or jury looking at an impartial tester being a conflict of interest.

        • Anon2012_2014

          “immediately started investing in competitors … tells me [IH] had no intention of completing the test and were trying to cheat Rossi”

          Huh???

          Why exactly should Industrial Heat not be fully in the LENR business. Where in the license agreement does it say that IH can’t diversify its investment in LENR?

          As long as IH did not transfer technology, something that we have no evidence for besides what Mr. Rossi has claimed in his one sided blog, how exactly did they violate the contract (in good faith or otherwise)? What is Industrial Heat suppose to be — dupes that put all their eggs into one basket because the counterparty has non-contractual expectations of being the single relationship? IH is not a spouse in marriage, it is a business and like most businesses they may have many relationships that do not violate any of their contracts.

          • Axil Axil

            I.H, support of competitors must have pissed Rossi to high heaven because that move directly contravenes Rossi’s strategy to fill the market with low cost LENR to starve the competition to death. Rossi could not stay in the I.H partnership. He needed to be free to flood the market with low cost LENR.

          • Anon2012_2014

            We have no idea what kind of margin or profit Rossi intended beyond his statements, and hand waiving about supporting children with cancer (who wouldn’t?). I always felt his business plan of country licensing rather than selling equity to investors was strange — reminded me of multi-level marketing where you sell some rights but keeping the core so that only Rossi ends up being the $Tillionaire.

          • Omega Z

            Actually, the agreement doesn’t seem to limit IH from diversifying its investment in LENR once the agreement is concluded. However, the agreement is yet concluded. So this could be considered a breach of the contract.

      • Anon2012_2014

        @Fenrick:

        “All of that is all good and well except it makes little difference as Rossi is contractually obligated to transfer all knowledge. If he did not do this for ANY reason…that is a breach of contract”

        Interesting and excellent point. The ball then has been served into IH’s court and we would expect counterclaims for both damages and performance i.e. to force Rossi to supply the technical know how and thus allow a third party (i.e. not Rossi) to build the reactor and thus make the demo into a commercially deliverable device.

        What exactly would IH pay Rossi $89 mm without a commercially deliverable device. IH wants to be in the business of selling E-Cat plants in North/South America and China. If Rossi doesn’t deliver sufficient know how to build and operate an E-Cat commercially, the demo plant is a bunch of scrap metal sitting in a hangar.

      • US_Citizen71

        Actually no. The only forced transfer of IP by any timetable was after the 24 hour report, nothing in the agreement states otherwise. It states that IH can use patents, trademarks, etc. but never states Rossi/LC must transfer knowledge that they exist or documents containing them to IH. Read the agreement.

        • Alex Fenrick

          I have read it…and that is your personal perspective….I think you missed some significant parts.

          • US_Citizen71

            So please show where a another timetable is spelled out other than directly after the 24 hour test for IP transfer.

      • DrD

        Not if he was intending to transfer the last bit’s after final payment, Remember this bit had no time limit.

        • Alex Fenrick

          I don’t have the exact quote here…but it was recently posted that even Rossi said he DID in fact provide 100% of the information to IH. If we go with your scenario, and he did hold it back waiting for payment…then his own statement makes him a liar. I believe the message was posted today….

    • pangoo

      Storms really hits the nail on the head here. The commercialisation of LENR is going to be even more messy than that of the personal computer or smartphone. At least they had solid grounding scientifically and companies had the ability to properly patent inventions/methods.

      Hopefully some of the new university programmes make a quick breakthrough so we can get some solid understanding of the science, and avoid most of the “My patent is bigger than your patent” crap!

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      Good post Dr. Storms, thank you. I agree Rossi is toeing the line in order to keep his IP. It seems to me a lot of people are treating the “License Agreement” like a “Sales agreement” but it is still titled “License Agreement”. I know the word “assign” is a problem, but the agreement does say “assign with respect to (only) the territory”. In my opinion it does not give IH the right to use the IP to create their own patents and IP and then use this “new” IP to sell to the whole world. I still have hope IH and Rossi can reach an agreement on what IH can and cannot do with Rossi IP.

      • Brent Buckner

        Perhaps at some point we’ll also get some clarity as to the arrangements respective of Rossi’s time as “Chief Scientist” at IH.

        • US_Citizen71

          Even if Rossi was IH Chief Scientist for a time period the contract they signed with Leonardo states any IP Rossi comes up with in regards to the E-Cat is Leonardo property. Section 13.4 you made me read it enough I won’t forget it.

          • Brent Buckner

            It could be that an agreement respective of being Chief Scientist (that would have been signed a later date than the License Agreement) contained a modification to that situation. IH might even try to make claims respective of a scientist being “hired to invent” or “shop rights” (e.g. http://www.martindale.com/labor-employment-law/article_Nexsen-Pruet-LLC_1358040.htm ).

          • US_Citizen71

            That wouldn’t change the agreement with Leonardo, the agreement specifically calls Rossi out by name. I did not see any amendment to the agreement changing that provision.

            The agreement was with Leonardo as well and Leonardo is comprised of more individuals than just Rossi. The agreement also states that they were interested in hiring Rossi not that they would. Need more data and evidence to support that Rossi was ever part of IH as of now nothing has been shown for certain that he was.

          • Brent Buckner

            Agreed respective of Leonardo.

            Regarding Rossi having been Chief Scientist of IH, all that we have is Rossi’s written claims (e.g. http://www.e-catworld.com/2014/01/27/rossi-confirms-position-at-industrial-heat-llc/ )

          • US_Citizen71

            To place it in history of what we knew at the time. http://www.e-catworld.com/2013/12/29/rossi-provides-more-explosive-e-cat-information/

            This was during the destructive HotCat tests. This is part of the IP transfer of the license agreement. So maybe he was working for them at that time, that doesn’t mean that it continued until the filing of the lawsuit. It will be a case what did he know or discover when.

          • Brent Buckner

            Agreed!

          • Omega Z

            In Mats interview with Fulvio Fabiani, Fabiani also stated that Rossi was the chief scientist. And that he was employed by Industrial heat to be Rossi’s right hand man, as well as left hand and legs. I don’t think this is at question.

          • Omega Z

            It would appear that Rossi was to be the Chief Scientist only during the 1 year test. The 1 year test was a continuance of the original signed agreement of milestones.

            Milestone 1)- 1.5 M$ Achieved
            Milestone 2)- 10 M$ Achieved
            Milestone 3)- 89 M$ In Question

            This does not entail “hired to invent” or “shop rights” But achieving Milestones.

            The agreement already provides that Industrial heat has license of right to manufacture and market additional R&D advancements by Leonardo. Likely as not, the full agreement includes Royalties per wholesale cost. The average arrangement is around 2%. No royalties would be extremely unusual, especially considering the significance of the technology. 100 M$ would be peanuts.

            Possibly, considering the weak statement from IH, the issue or disagreement isn’t if the e-cat works with more then acceptable COP, But whether it has (#3) achieved industrial readiness. If not well spelled out in the contract, this becomes an issue of personal perspective. Rossi says yes. Darden says no.

          • Brent Buckner

            We’ll see what IH claims. I’m not confident that it won’t be more complex than you posit, considering such elements as it seeming to me that Fabiani was participating in E-Cat X R&D under direction of Rossi and that any separate agreement respective of Rossi’s role as Chief Scientist may have issues much as the License Agreement seems to.

      • clovis ray

        nope, it over, they tried an burn him, and got caught, game over,
        Dr. rossi is not as easy a pushover as they thought, When he is miles ahead of them in every way, i’m loving it. go Dr. ROSSI. THE WORLD IS COUNTING ON YOU, If I or e-cat world can help in anyway please include us, we stand ready,with all hands on deck.

        • Bernie Koppenhofer

          You are probably right, it was just hope

    • builditnow

      I agree with Ed Storms:
      Having observed the cat and mouse game between investors and inventors in silly con valley for the last 26 years, including during the dot bomb era, the successful cases are when both sides don’t give up full power to the other. This means that IH withholds $89 million, but, Rossi also has to withhold some secret sauce such that Rossi can force IH to pay the $89 million and abide by the contract. Rossi would be in a weak position if all he has is the contract and the word of an independent certifier against the combined financial power of IH, Darden, Cherochee.

      I’ve seen several cases up close and personal where the inventor gave up too much of his power and then the investors effectively destroyed the invention by failing to understand it or running out of funds and selling off the invention in a fire sale to a company that had no clue how to further it.
      I’ve seen several cases where the inventor refused to give up sufficient power and these inventions also went nowhere as the investors did not feel secure.

      These games were played out with inventions that have a minuscule value compared to the E-Cat.
      Patents could be and were applied for.

      With the E-Cat, the game is at a whole other level.
      The value is immensely greater.
      Patents cannot be applied for.
      Most scientists think the E-Cat is impossible.
      There is a lot of powerful interested parties who could be actively attempting to suppress any LENR development.
      The media is not game to touch the subject except to refer to it as an example of failed science.

      In a situation like this, Rossi is forced to cleverly hold something back.
      IH / Darden likely have a real complaint, they cannot create working reactors independently of Rossi. Their first hand in the card game is to refuse to pay the $89 million. Rossi was already prepared to play his hand, go to court.

      Involving the courts could likely benefit both sides as it brings the power of the courts, and the enforcement of the US legal system to bear on the contract. This makes the contract much stronger for both sides as it becomes “pre-argued” and “pre-certified” by the courts, “before the big games begin” … so to speak.

      It is suspicious that Brillouin quickly produced a nickel hydrogen version of their reactor while having a connection to IH. Was there any technological sharing without Rossi’s permission? He needs to find out.

      With a court case settled, it then becomes a lot safer for Rossi to hand over the secret sauce, or, negotiate to remain in control of the secret sauce while giving IH all they need to go into production.

      • AdrianAshfield

        It’s $890 million….not 89 million
        Rossi has made it clear he wants to mass produce and sell E-Cats.

        The patent situation is a mess and his best hope is to get out there fast.
        He can do it in Europe if IH proves too sticky,
        It is in his interest to supply good units to IH or for them to build them if they don’t cheat. It will be impossible to keep how it works secret for long.

    • clovis ray

      Hi, AdrIan,
      To be honest, storms has never impressed me, he’s one of the smart guys,that loves their jobs more than science,
      he said, significant excess energy can be made when unknown and rarely produced conditions are applied to certain materials.( rarely produced) when was this written,
      someone needs to tell him he can order his on E-catvq right now.
      He said, Rossi is forced to play a very dangerous and difficult game involving
      deception and in some cases lying.
      Dr R does not lie, and deceive anyone,
      He said,If he finds a method to make a material nuclear active,
      There is nothing nuclear about his device, it has not been proven, and it is not the lenr effect, it is the rossi effect, get use to it. lenr has not been proven..
      he don’t need to try and raise money he says he has plenty,
      He said, A no win situation has been created by the skeptics.
      he must be kidding,
      he said, provided false leads to keep people from finding his method.
      no proof of any such thing. ,
      YEP, the 86 mill, he never did receive , because I/H wanted his old invention, along with trying to steal his new one while his back was turned, so to speak.

      So, no i have nothing for mr, storms, as you can deduct from his commentary, he’s jealous of Dr. Rossi,

  • wpj

    Stated in legal documents………………..

  • Ged

    I know right? This is frankly getting ridiculous.

  • wpj

    The electricity consumption and power supplied will be the defining (……!!!) proof.

  • Alex Fenrick

    I find it quite interesting and telling that conveniently the elephant in the room and most controversial part of this circus for me was not mentioned…the connection between the ERV and Rossi/IH. The connection makes the report completely invalid as it is a conflict of interest. Quite suspicious that this was not asked…

    • AdrianAshfield

      That is rubbish as has been pointed out several times. What connection? That his fee was jointly paid? That they are both Italian?

      • Alex Fenrick

        It is absolutely not rubbish. The connection between the ERV, Rossi and IH has been known about for quite sometime and discussed as well. I am not going to derail the topic by resurrecting an old thread, but it is all here in the forums. This is not a disputed fact….do some research on that specific topic. Also VERY fishy to me that he chose someone from Italy rather than the US where the testing is done as well…very fishy.

        • psi2u2

          It most certainly is disputed what is the most accurate characterization of what you here ambiguously construe as a “connection” between Penon and Rossi. Penon evaluated one of Rossi’s earlier experiments. There is no evidence in record for an association more specific than that, that he is accurately called Rossi’s “friend,” etc., or similar innuendos. Also, as your comment indicates but under-emphasizes, IH chose Penon also. So if that was the wrong choice, both Rossi and IH on the face of it share responsibility for a poor choice.

          • Alex Fenrick

            Again….psi…those points are irrelevant to a court and/or a jury as it is still a conflict of interest and something Rossi should have known was a bad idea.

          • psi2u2

            Are you a lawyer? If not, I would suggest refraining from drawing legal conclusions, especially based on the evidence you’ve presented here which in no reasonable definition of the word substantiates, to pick a useful verb, your conclusions.

          • Alex Fenrick

            No one here is a lawyer, yet all of us including you are speculating all the same….I could ask you the same question. Please respect my right to analyze the situation with the same respect you are given.

          • psi2u2

            Don’t put words into my mouth, guy. You were the only one in this conversation who was making claims about what a jury would or would not do. I called you on it. I still call you on it. It is not appropriate, especially when backed by the silly evidence you presented here, which only provides corroboration to what everyone has been stipulating for hours, that Penon wrote an earlier e-cat report. We know this!

            Like Bernie K. said above, an hour ago,

            “I get the feeling you have not been following this story very long, if that is the case you need to do some reading.”

          • roseland67

            Agreed,
            No one here has clue on what is legal, illegal, conflict, admissible etc.
            What we have not heard yet is anything from anyone at IH, except, “it didn’t work as stated”.

      • Alex Fenrick

        Here you go Adrian…read it in black and white. That is ABSOLUTELY enough of a conflict of interest for a court in a case of this magnitude..especially as it is even in the same exact field of study..even same technology. A real no-no.

        https://www.scribd.com/doc/105322688/Penon4-1

    • If Industrial Heat claims that they suggested several impartial ERVs and Rossi insisted on Penon, then you may have something.

      But what you’re basically saying is that you’re a conspiracy theorist and that Penon has been in on a 5 year old and still running scam despite the fact that he could have headed for the hills after a nifty payout several years ago.

      • Alex Fenrick

        LENR G…that is irrelevant to the court case at this point…that’s what so many people are not getting here!!! Test results found to be conducted by an individual that is connect to said project (especially the inventor) in any way are absolute cause for conflict of interest across the board. No judge, jury, lawyer or intelligent investor would believe the results of a test after it is found that the tester has ANY ties at all. The fact that IH may have know of such connections or even agreed to it is incidental to the court case now. This is such simple law 101.

        • Incorrect. The only thing relevant to the court case regarding the ERV is whether both Rossi and IH agreed on that ERV and paid him equally.

          Rossi’s wife could have been the ERV and been acceptable as long as both parties agreed.

          • sam

            I wonder how much if any Rossi’s wife is involved other
            than playing tennis.

      • AdrianAshfield

        My understanding is that IH hired him for the original 24 hour test so he in not connected to Rossi..

        • Penon did a test for Rossi in Aug 2012.
          https://www.scribd.com/doc/105322688/Penon4-1

          That was before the 24hr test for IH in May 2013.

          However IH and Rossi entered into their license agreement in Oct 2012. So it’s possible that Penon and IH were connected back in Aug 2012 too. So it’s really unclear if the initial connection was with Rossi, with IH or with both simultaneously by pre-license agreement.

          • Alex Fenrick

            That is exactly what I was going to post. Either way…this is a conflict of interest to a court.

          • Not a conflict of interest if they both agreed.

            If the court case comes down to the validity of the report and IH challenges it then they can simply call in impartial experts to do some more measurements. We are told the plant is still running.

          • Alex Fenrick

            But that is my point LENR. A jury WILL and should find the report to be invalid because of the documented connection to Rossi. You are correct that they will need impartial experts to do the measurements, but that does not in any way change the fact that it is a conflict of interest in the eyes of the court. I think everyone who ignores this point in this case is really doing a disservice to the analysis.

          • If Industrial Heat challenges the validity of the test report from the ERV despite having agreed to that ERV then the burden of proof that it is somehow fraudulent is on them. This will be difficult as we are told there were three sets of independent measurements that all agreed within the margin or error and that the COP is, let’s say, well over 6 which means the measurement error or means of deceit will have to be easy to spot. Throw in 24 hour video surveillance and testimony of a happy customer that can corroborate the energy balance through bottom line means and Industrial Heat has their work cut out for them.

            Unless Rossi is lying about all these things, which of course is possible.

          • Alex Fenrick

            Again LENRG…I am not talking about IH disputing the validity of the ERV…I am talking about the judge/jury rightfully disputing it as conflict of interest. Those are very different things.

          • Bob K

            You have made your point way too many times! For everybody’s sake, please pick a new topic.

          • Frank Acland

            It’s a good reminder that ‘needlessly repetitive’ posting goes against commenting guidelines for ECW

          • kdk

            I don’t see what he would be hoping to gain by lying to us about it. We’ll see within a few weeks which points IH contests. It certainly wouldn’t be a good way to start a case, by making so many bold claims with no evidence. If Rossi is a scammer, he’s a very, very, very good one and that doesn’t seem like a plausible way to keep this, supposedly, however many year long scam going… No cases of scammers like this come to mind of going to court in order to execute the final part of their scam.

          • there is two direction to attack rossi, reasonabley.
            one is that his numerous bad tests are ther to hide, real but insufficient performance.

            the second is that his really good resulst, are simply un shared secrets, and rossi is pathologically unable to respect the sharing agreement he was paid for.

            I have elements to support both theories from people who know about the various tests, and from what we all know from his personality.

            what surprised me more, from witnesses, is how Darden is a human, beside being a businessman.
            He have claws, but heart too, and he is not a shark at all. I’m even afraid for him facing greed in LENR…. but maybe 10.5Mn is affordable for he and his investors.

            beside that I have great expectation for the varied team he have built.
            When this affair will be closed, I think we should bet on Darden.

          • Ged

            Ok, what is the documented connection to Rossi? People here have looked through the records, but maybe we missed something. Please provide the direct evidence for your statement, as I am curious to see more.

          • Alex Fenrick
          • Ged

            As has already been discussed, IH was vetting Rossi at the time this happened. Thus, Penon only appears when IH is in play, but as of yet, never appears before hand. I’m sorry, but this does not support your case. You’ll have to find something farther in the past that is completely unconnected to IH (before IH existed would be good, since as far as we know, IH was created specifically for investing into Rossi, and then branched towards other LENRs).

          • BillH

            Do we know for certain IH has contracted other LENR groups? What are their name? I feel we should confirm something like that with individual contractors.

          • Ged

            Additionally, someone contract testing a technology is not “connected” to the person they are testing in any way, shape, nor form. So that logic is a complete fallacy. Gotta show a financial stake such as investment or regular employment.

          • BillH

            And, does anything in that test indicate that Penon would not be a good tester or that he had insufficient knowledge of what he was doing? To the contrary from what I can discern the test was carried out in an orderly and systematic was. This actually makes me more inclined to accept Penon as a reasonable judge, if the ERV report is of similar clarity let’s see it soon.

            Nice piece of evidence that I hadn’t read before btw.

          • psi2u2

            ” A jury WILL and should find the report to be invalid because of the documented connection to Rossi.”

            Who died and made you judge, jury, and executioner? Imho, it would be very wise at this point in time to avoid these kinds of remarkable prejudgments about what a jury should, would, or could do, based on the evidence in our possession. Nobody here is ignoring the fact that Penon was the arbitrator in a previous test. For one thing, it seems to be almost the only thing you’re interested in talking about, and the issues has been raised multiple times and addressed multiple times on this very thread, but you still keep arriving more and more aggressively at these premature conclusions. Take a deep breath.

          • Alex Fenrick

            psi, no one has to make me judge, jury and executioner to see a blatantly obvious issue for Rossi that everyone continues to downplay. By downplaying this issue, the analysis of the situation is terribly skewed. Very disingenuous and unintelligent way to analyze anything let along a court case.

          • AdrianAshfield

            OK. I will look. I see he did the government certification. Why would you not consider that an independent test?

          • I didn’t say I didn’t think it was independent.

            I just find the timing curious is all and am wondering when IH started to have an impact. Did Rossi get that report done because IH was already sniffing around and wanted something like that done? Maybe IH suggested Penon in the first place? Just speculating.

          • Ged

            Someone doing a test for someone is not a connection to them. If IH asked him to run a test on their behalf (as they did the 24 hour one, which we did not know till the release of documents), that doesn’t mean he’s in any way connected to Rossi. Given how long it takes to set up a contract and get it signed and into effect, it’s highly likely IH was there at July/Aug 2012 as the first test that made them enter an agreement.

            But the thing is, none of that matters, as testing a product does not mean you have a connection to the corporation and product you tested (otherwise, UL and CE and all the others are connected to the people they test and their tests are “invalid”, by that logic. Remember, the people they test are paying them, so isn’t that “conflict of interest”, by that logic?).

            A connection would mean that Penon worked as an employee for Rossi, or Rossi worked as an employee for Penon, or Penon is otherwise financially invested in Rossi’s invention/corporation. Only -that- would be considered a connection.

            So many red herrings thrown around about this guy. Unless IH proves such a connection, the fact IH hired him on (since they are paying him; and this happened at least two times), says he’s their guy and they are happy with him.

          • Agreed. Still, exactly when and how Penon entered the picture is of interest to me.

            If he was brought in to facilitate a pending agreement between Rossi and IH and is basically IH’s guy validating the first E-Cats, then of course they would use him for the subsequent tests.

            Or if Rossi knew him prior to all that, then that is interesting too.

          • Ged

            I completely agree. As far as it -currently- seems–and new evidence could change this, but such evidence does not yet currently exist–Penon appears only when IH appears, so those are the only two that are linked. Would be very interesting if we can backtrack him to any time before that though, see if he’s done any other work for IH/Cherokee or Rossi or anyone else.

          • Jerry Soloman

            When we see IH response – we will see how they plan to battle this in court it appears that Penon is where IH sees the weak spot that they themselves may have planted without his knowledge, lets see how the movie plays out.

          • Ged

            Very true. We will learn a whole lot more when IH puts up its defense. Could be they know more about Penon’s past, and could attack that if indeed he is connected to Rossi (actually “materially” connected, not simply having been contacted to run a test to gain IH as an investor as was done in 2012).

            It would still not completely help them, since they agreed to him on subsequent tests.

          • Alex Fenrick

            Ged….a judge and/or jury will not necessarily agree with your perspective…especially as this is such a controversial technology with absolutely NO other proof in the world ever…thus a TRULY independent tester is absolutely necessary….NO connections at all. Very shady that Rossi would even use someone from his past in my opinon. I think you are missing the big picture that the judge/jury will see it as a conflict of interest….whether IH disputes it or not is incidental.

          • Ged

            A judge and jury will use legal definitions. A conflict of interest is a legal definition, which means one has a financial stake that conflicts with ones duties. This is cut and dry; the nature of the technology is immaterial. What you said is just an attempt to rationalize and to grasp at the idea when it is already falsified.

            Since a court of law is based on -law-, we need to think only in legal terms.

            Also, again, Penon only appears when IH appears, and there is no proof of a past connection (financial, or employment) to Rossi, as of yet.

          • Mike

            A basic question. Why wasn’t a laboratory or company asked to do the validation instead of an individual. Nowhere is there any information that Penon is validating as an employee of such lab or company. Money should not be any problem in this case and would probably avoid any further questions.

          • LarryJ

            Your point is irrelevant. The involved parties did agree that Penon could do the report and that his would be the final word on the matter. Usually we don’t have much to go on but that fact has been entered in the record.

          • Mike

            Do you think that the current discussion on the ERV should as lively as it is if a well known lab or company was hired for the test evaluation? Rossi and IH have simply made a mistake. But so far we have only heard one side of the story. What if IH says tells a completly different story?

          • LarryJ

            It would not matter who was hired as the ERV, you can be sure the discussion would be lively. That is why no report or demo, no matter how long or credible the tester will ever be accepted as proof of the technology. This is a paradigm shifting technology so there will always be highly credible skeptics who will dismiss the findings which in turn will discourage the mainstream press from reporting on it. The only acceptable proof is products in the market.

            I think that for legal reasons IH will probably tell a different story, while at the same time selling working reactors because it will serve their purpose to do so.

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      Unbelievable statement without even seeing the report. Just think about the number of people who have to be fools or part of a Rossi conspiracy, intelligent scientists, scores of first hand observers, science reporters and now MFMP. You have been reading way too much Krivit and Maryyugo.

      • Alex Fenrick

        That makes absolutely no sense at all Bernie as supposedly no one has seen this report besides the ERV, Rossi and IH. I don’t even really see what your point is…as it does not address my very valid point of legal conflict of interest. You make no sense.

        • Bernie Koppenhofer

          I get the feeling you have not been following this story very long, if that is the case you need to do some reading.

          • Alex Fenrick

            Quite the contrary Bernie…I think you are doing yourself a disservice by being so skewed into not seeing the bigger picture here. Again your statement made no sense at all as a rebuttal to anything we were speaking about.

          • Michael W Wolf

            lol, Brevity is indeed the soul of wit. It takes me so many words to say the same thing. 🙂

          • clovis ray

            Hello michael you do very well, This is hard to believe if you don’t have the info you need to understand, we must go easy on these folks,they
            are only acting on what they think they know and have been thought.

            Once they understand, they become good advocates, for this new tech.
            and we need them in the coming revolution.

            it’s the ones that get me, are the ones that are so adamant that we’r crazy, and it’s impossible.

        • Michael W Wolf

          Conflict of interest? Cherokee is heavily invested in fossil fuel assets. Do you think them Substantiating lenr would affect those investments? Conflict of interest of the highest order. We have enough facts to point to IH as not being honest brokers. If you don’t know this then you haven’t been paying attention and should refrain from Telling other people who do indeed make sense if you know the few facts we do have. You make no sense. Do your homework man. Then maybe you’ll say something that makes sense.

          • Guest

            Again you make the claim that Cherokee is heavily invested in fossil fuel assets. This is false, they invest in acquiring environmentally contaminated real estate, cleaning it up, developing it and reselling it. Nothing to do with fossil fuels.

            Do you have a link that backs up your statement?

            You frequently claim slander (what you really mean is ‘libel’) by others, yet you make this false statement as if it is fact. Either back it up with a link or desist* from making libelous claims.

            [*EDIT – original post used ‘defer’ instead of ‘desist’, please accept my humblest apologies for imprecise word choice]

          • Alan Smith

            There are two ‘l’s in libellous btw. And do you mean ‘desist when you say ‘defer’ ?
            It should be pointed out that Cherokee are not totally snow-white. They invested in a company whose contentious sale of brownfield land that was not cleaned up resulted in a court case and the subsequent (or perhaps prior) filing for bankruptcy of the vendor company. I forget the exact details but look up Cherokee on Bloomberg and they are there.

          • Guest

            Actually it can be spelled both ways, but yes, I did mean to say ‘desist’ instead of ‘defer’, thank you for the essential edit, I will make the change ASAP.

            The rest of your comment has nothing to do with mine though. I did not claim Cherokee was snow-white (I’m sure any company that has done as many deals as Cherokee has has had some go south). I have not made disparaging remarks about either party, and am interested in hearing both sides so I can try to understand the objective truth.

            I commented that @michaelwwolf:disqus should stop making statements that Cherokee is heavily invested in fossil fuels as if it is fact when that is false, and then using that to effectively call them dishonest. For someone who has accused others of ‘slander’ at least 5 times in the last week alone, he should be more careful with what (and how) he writes.

          • Alex Fenrick

            You may be correct about Cherokee…but that does not detract from my point in the least bit…two separate issues. The ERV has connections…the court will find it as conflict of interest as they should…this is incidental to your point. Please refrain from the childish attacks…it does not suit you well.

          • Guest

            (removing – duplicate post due to delay in comment going through)

        • roseland67

          Alex,
          How exactly do you know that no one had seen the report?

          • Alex Fenrick

            Well it has not been made public…so anyone who has seen it is inside IH or Rossi’s team. I don’t think anyone is disputing this..

        • LarryJ

          It would be a very poor lawyer who allowed inaccurate information from a nonexistent report to be included in his clients statement of claim. I think it is safe to say that his lawyer has seen it and the role of the lawyer is to be cool and objective since his client is usually the opposite of that.

    • Omega Z

      What I find quite interesting is that Industrial heat personnel had a hand in building the 1MW pilot plant. That IH had “Their” people there everyday of the 350+ day test.(You’d think at 30 days no excess heat would have ended the test) That it ran nearly a year under continuous monitoring by them says much.

      During the 1 year test, Industrial heat brought multiple potential investors to see it. They said- We built it. It works. Investors invested. Did Industrial heat mislead the investors. But all you can talk about is Pink Elephants. You must of gotten the good drugs.

      • BillH

        I’ve said that for the last couple of days. but it’s interesting that AR can’t reveal the location of the plant, even if it was done indirectly. He could be standing in front of the container saying “Look it’s real, it’s running, test it as much as you like, I’m heading back to LC to do more work”.

        • alan

          Its a British company hiding behind a shell set up by Rossi’s lawyer to keep anonymity. They will not be able to hide too much longer if court case ensues.

          • BillH

            Evil Brits subverting the release of E-Cat, I love it! hehe

      • Albert Nilsson

        Do we have any corroborating evidence for any of these statements? Or is Rossi the sole source?

      • Michael W Wolf

        You are absolutely right. The skeptics will say anything and have no credibility left IMO. They are loose with the facts and big on slander. Frank removes my comments when I use profanity in my justifiable rage against these malicious people. He should remove any comment that slanders Rossi. They get more leeway than I do from Frank.

        • roseland67

          No they don’t
          Frank is judge, Jury and executioner
          at Ecat World,
          If what you are suggesting does not “toe the company line” there is a good chance your comments will be deleted.
          Make no mistake, this is Frank’s blog, and even tho he tries to be a fair and impartial journalist, he clearly has an agenda.
          “IF”, The Ecat and Rossi turn out to be “less than genuine”, and I’m not saying they are, what happens to the blog?

          • US_Citizen71

            I think you are being a little absolute in your judgement of Frank. The posting rules are free for anyone to read and short of expletives and libelous statements most things are allowed to be posted. Most view points can be stated without becoming libelous, you just have to choose your words and how you put them together carefully.

      • Bob

        My only comment is about the above “facts”…. is that they are completely unproven.
        We do not know thet were there 350+ days. We do not know IH had their people there. We do not know who and when monitored the tests. We do not know who was brought to see it. All we have is what Rossi filed.
        .
        We also have that IH stated Rossi’s statements are without merit!
        .
        Who is telling the truth!?! Just because there is a filing, that does not mean it is true, completely true or simply “painted in a different color”. There is a lawsuit and I for one will wait to see what comes of it. IH / Tom Darden deserves the “innocent until proven guilty” as with anyone!
        .
        I look at history.. In my admittedly cursory search on Tom Darden, nothing but positive posts have been made. Successful, respected, has made a career out of a good cause…. I could find no “mud” on him at all. The SEC ruling is not a smear if you actually take time to read it and learn the facts. Darden and Cherokee are in good standing with the SEC. Yes a fine was issued and they did pay it. Similar things with Apple, Google, Ford, GM, G.E., Berkshire Hathaway and many, many other companies have happened. They are not all devils because often rulings are the results of mistakes or errors, not intentional criminal activity.
        .
        Look at Rossi’s history…. not so unblemished… however, also much misaligned for some things he did not do. However, he has also not delivered anything that has been proven or useful, just many “Rossi says” and for many years.
        .
        I am not the jury and I do not have the facts. I cannot judge Rossi guilty but I CERTAINLY cannot libel Tom Darden and call him evil. One of these individuals does have a much more proven, positive, long term history than the other. That does at least deserve withholding all the venomous judgement.
        .
        Again, I think I will save this post and bring it back up in 6 months to see where we are!

        • BillH

          Quite a balanced post, I expect you will now be attacked by both sides of the argument. Good work!

    • Michael W Wolf

      That is IH’s fault. Why are you blaming Rossi?

      • Alex Fenrick

        You are not understanding. I am not placing blame at all…I am saying a judge and/or jury will dismiss/dispute the ERV because of the conflict of interest…that is apples and oranges from what you are saying.

    • LarryJ

      The report was never intended as an independent validation of the technology. How could it be. It was commissioned and paid for entirely in house. It was intended to prove the technology was commercially viable and to referee the contract between IH and Leonardo who each paid 50% of the cost. The parties agreed to the ERV prior to the start of the test. Rossi has also stated that the report was never intended for the public. No report will ever convince the public, only products will do that.

  • Bob

    Do not worry about the lawsuit….
    .
    There is no lawsuit in Europe and Rossi has a clear road ahead. Once he starts his production in Europe, the lawsuit will be a moot point. We should all expect very good news very soon!.

    Per Rossi –
    2) Is the production and appearance on market delayed? By how much?
    AR: it will be accelerated, because they were a brake
    3) Does Rossi need new investors and money to get the production started?
    AR: no
    4) What obstacles other than remaining R&D are there now to get production and sales started?
    AR: none,
    .
    So he has the money.. he has the robotized factory… he has no obstacles… HydroFusion should be accepting binding purchase orders within the next month. No secret customers, no hands being tied. There is no need of any argument or discussion…. Simply wait a month and see all the binding Purchase Orders coming in. The certainly there will be multiple companies that will jump at the chance for HUGE free publicity of being one of the first to use 100% clean, affordable energy and to lead the fight against global warming!. So no more secret customers!

    .
    Before November…

    Andrea Rossi
    November 24th, 2015 at 7:39 AM

    The 1 MW E-Cats should be start to be produced in series within 1 year
    http://www.e-catworld.com/2015/11/24/rossi-production-for-1-mw-plants-should-start-within-one-year-if-current-test-succeeds/
    .
    So the test has been very positive for him and now no obstacles. PO’s should be coming in and production within the next 6 months.
    .
    Or not?

    • MorganMck

      “4) What obstacles other than remaining R&D are there now to get production and sales started?

      AR: none,”

      What about safety certification. It was a major issue before. Why won’t it be one now or at least be used as an excuse why Rossi does not move forward quickly. I asked him this question directly on JONP and he ignored it. Telling?

      • Skip

        I believe the certification has been received for industrial use. The certification for residential use is hopefully forthcoming, probably after the industrial use is proven safe and productive.

        • builditnow

          Skip is right, I’ve repeatedly heard that the industrial certification has been issued but the residential has not. I don’t have any absolute proof either way however. I think this information comes from Rossi’s blog entries. Can anyone verify the industrial certification?

          • Bob

            I can verify that the much talked about SGS verification is not valid for any real useful purpose.
            .
            http://www.e-catworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/EFA-rep-1107.pdf
            .
            Please see second page, second paragraph under the signature. In summary it reads prototype only, not valid as a production certificate and cannot be used for any commercial purposes..
            .
            Another certificate was announced by Rossi from Bureau Veritas but no proof of it has been published that I could find. So we have no information as to what it might entail. Like the SGS certification, it could be nothing or it could be real and valid, I cannot say either way.
            .
            Seriously though… Rossi has went on record that production should start within the next few months, he has plenty of money, he has the robotized factory and nothing is blocking him. His words, not any body else.
            Where will we be 6 months from now????
            .

          • Ged

            Guess we’ll find out on the next exciting episode!

          • Bruce__H

            People were saying that 5 years ago.

          • Ged

            It’s a long running series ;). Just hope it’s got a better ending than “Lost”.

          • LarryJ

            I absolutely loved the ending to “Lost”. I watched that series 3 times from front to back and enjoyed it every time, especially the way they ended such and enigmatic series. Endings, like music, are a question of taste and there is no accounting for taste. One man’s trash is another man’s treasure.

          • LarryJ

            Check the record and you will see that quite a lot has been accomplished in the last 5 years. The road from lab to market is not paved, expect a few bumps and potholes along the way.

          • Bruce__H

            I can’t see anything that has been accomplished in the last 5 years. Five years ago – more actually – Rossi was claiming that he had an operational ecat device heating factory buildings, that he had a mysterious customer who was happy with what they saw, and that he was ready to swing into production within a year. I don’t see the change.

            In fact 25 yeas ago I recall there were many groups worldwide feverishly working to replicate results that had been announced with great fanfare (Pons and Fleishman of course). Some of the groups were getting glimmers of results and there was terrific excitement in the air. A close friend of mine at the time was part of a group at the national nuclear research facility in Chalk River in Canada who were attempting such a replication. The very first time they tried it they got a burst of unexplained heat. Big success! But then they could never repeat it. No one else has ever got reliable results either. Such things happen in science. I don’t see the change.

          • LarryJ

            How about two separate independent third party tests that confirmed the reactor, a full one year test on a 1 MW reactor built and designed for use in a commercial environment, followed by what we believe to be a very positive ERV report. The commercial reactor also has safety certification. These are all pretty big deals that show a steady and rationally planned move to developing reactors for the market.

            I don’t recall Rossi ever saying he had reactors heating factories. I do recall him saying that he heated his own facility with one. He did say he was ready to go on domestic heaters but then ran into the safety certification issue which was beyond his control. I do believe he sold his original 1 MW reactor. The customer was never identified but was rumoured to be the US military.

            If you are interested you should read Mats Lewan’s book An Impossible Invention. It contains a lot of detail on the obstacles that Rossi has had to overcome in an effort to bring this tech to the market. It has been a rocky road and given the nature of the invention that is not surprising.

          • Bruce__H

            Really the only report of any use in these situations is the peer reviewed report of a replication by an independent group in which Rossi is never allowed to be near the setup.

            We should be frank that results from Rossi need to overcome the possibility that it is all fraudulent. I understand the excitement about a potential breakthrough but that is just the atmosphere in which hucksters thrive.

          • LarryJ

            The line up of experts that the huckster Rossi has fooled has become embarassingly long.

          • Bruce__H

            Scientists and engineers are used to putting controls etc on experiments because nature can sometimes be difficult to deal with. They are not, however, used to detecting conscious chicanery. A stage magician would be a better person to detect such things.

          • Rene

            Where will we or Rossi be 6 months from now? No idea because the time ranges from next month, care of robotized Asgard replication factories, to years because several investigations seem to indicate there are not many resources at his disposal. There are too many contradictory statements, cross allegations, too many exaggerations, and several missed e-cats around the corner pronouncements.
            I think at this point there are two avenues here: 1. let’s leave Signore Rossi alone to develop and sell his e-cats using his oft stated ‘the market is the truth’ option since he is too secretive for anyone to glean much of anything until then; and 2. let’s continue following the open source MFMP project and similar projects.
            Following both of these avenues will increase the signal to noise ratio in these discussions.

          • LarryJ

            Rossi just finished a 1 year test of his 1 MW reactor in an industrial operation. That could not have been done without certification.

    • When threatened Rossi puffs himself up like a peacock and he has made similar claims of industrialization before.

      I’m inclined to believe, as he claims, that he has a 30+ person company proceeding to commercialization with ABB setting up the robots in LC’s factory now or soon. But some corroboration would be nice.

      • Michael W Wolf

        Yea, a lot of people here have done some real work pointing out facts that would otherwise be unknown to us. They are like Rossi’s unpaid attorneys. Without them the skeptics really would have made Rossi look like a scam artist. He imo definitely owes them something. If not just a thank you.

        • Alex Fenrick

          We are definitely finding just as much dirt on Rossi’s side as everyone goes deeper down the bunny hole. I think we will most likely find that both sides of this circus have been pulling shenanigans….hopefully the court will require a REAL independent test done so we can FINALLY get proof either way.

          • Michael W Wolf

            Rossi is continually vindicated when adhoc allegations that are continually thrown at him. There hasn’t been an accusation where Rossi proved to be lying. Only wishful thinking. Ih on the other hand, has said only a few things that have been found to be inaccurate or dishonest, Either way they have completely contradicted themselves and not one of the skeptics I’ve heard ever caught it. Rossi fans have, and I don’t see skeptics recanting or admitting they have made said mistakes. Skeptic have been shown to be slanderous and untrustworthy for anyone with an ounce of intellectual honesty. But I do see Rossi fans agreeing with reasonable skepticism.

          • Ged

            Thankfully, reasonable skepticism helps to keep everyone honest. We are learning a lot in all this chaos, at least.

          • Alex Fenrick

            You forget there are many here who used to be believers hanging on for years, but have recently become skeptics because of lack evidence and their view of who is lying etc etc. on and on. There has been alot of polarization over this, but the reality is we are all just armchair quarterbacking this whole situation. Either way at least everyone here knows where everyone stands and we have a good historical record of it here on E-Cat world. Should be interesting when we hit the “I told you so” phase which ever way this all goes.

          • LarryJ

            IH have not really said anything to date other than the normal legalese and a very short and meaningless statement that they could not replicate Rossi’s reactor. I think IH are now full steam ahead on trying to bring their product to market before Rossi can bring his. First you grab market share, then you fight over who owns the IP. IH know enough now to effectively compete against Leonardo and that is all they need.

          • Actually that they could not “substantiate” which is even more vague. They probably did replicate a number of times. As I described here, it could very well be that nobody is lying. http://www.sifferkoll.se/sifferkoll/the-rossi-vs-darden-lenr-saga-is-it-possible-that-they-both-are-telling-the-truth/

          • DrD

            “his claims” I think — not “his reactor” — even more restrictive.

          • exactly

          • Michael W Wolf

            I don’t see anyone saying that there wasn’t a REAL independent validation of the now known footprint of the Higgs Bison particle found to be 126.2 GEV. Because of it, they have secured millions of dollars in public funding. What do we get from it? Nothing just, more money out of our pockets for UNSUBSTANTIATED conjecture. Why don’t you go bark up that tree?

          • Obvious

            Those CERN folks know each other. Many for years. Collusion!

          • US_Citizen71

            ; )

          • Jarea

            Not fair.
            I think CERN is based in open science and the material is open and accessible for the scientific community.
            All knowledge and studies must be accessible so that a member of the group can prove independently that the results are either faked or can be trusted. They can´t build another collider because it is a too expensive solution but the peer review is done by allowing many different and competing parties to participate in the building, collection and interpretation of the results. The communication of results is done by consensus.
            This is is different of what it has happened with the money interest and obscure protection done with LENR. I have said many times, that Rossi has already ensured his money, his patent, we now must do LENR mainstream with a big demostration. In my opinion, only MFMP has done right from the beginning, even better than CENR 🙂 because the experiment are real-time available on internet.

          • Albert Nilsson

            The Higgs particle is independently reproduced in that they have two different experiments, CMS and Atlas, which makes use of the same accelerator, but apart from that are totally independent in setup, construction and placement. They don’t even make use of the same collisions in their measurements.

          • LarryJ

            There will be products in the market long before a court gets to see a REAL independent test done. The only test that truly matters is the one you do at home and that day will probably be here before Rossi’s jury is even selected.

          • TVulgaris

            There’s not the slightest chance a judge will require an independent test, it has nothing to do with the contract. Rossi may offer one as evidence (that could either be a nightmare scenario, or exactly what this is pointed towards.

    • Jerry Soloman

      Wishful thinking that the lawsuit will be moot – Industrial Heat is on the hook for 86 Million + PLUS revenue from lost sales and an inferior product developed by IH partners like “Robert Godes of Brillouin Energy” there may be a credibility issue for Industrial Heat ** not to mention costly exposure to further litigation if they loose.

      ** We would like to see them settle and continue to work together with the latest product.

      • LarryJ

        This lawsuit and its appeals will drag on for years and there is no way that the technology will wait for years. The latest patent application from IH shows a COP of 11 or 12 and as far as I know IH still has the 1 MW reactor which they did pay for and which tested at a COP of 50.

        I would expect to see IH start to build and sell 1 MW reactors throughout the world in direct competition with Leonardo’s quarkx. Why on earth would they wait unless they truly are unable to replicate the tech which at this point appears very unlikely. One day far in the future either IH will owe Leonardo licensing fees or vice versa but in the meantime we will have two major players who both have a claim (justified or not) to the technology and they will both proceed at full speed. So expect business as usual.

        This lawsuit will not affect development of the technology. It will only affect who gets the lions share of the IP in the long run. IH might lose the court battle but still win the war in terms of market share. But Rossi is the creative genius so his products might well be far superior. Who knows but the story just keeps getting more interesting every day.

        The real winner will be the consumer as two new mega corporations are born and fight for supremacy.

        • Fedir Mykhaylov

          COP = 50 apparently relates to self-sustaining mode without using heating elements. Electricity is spent only on the excitation system .

          • LarryJ

            You might be right but I am not sure. Two figures, 50 and 60 were given and I have assumed that 50 was the average between powered and ssm mode and that cop > 60 was the peak achieved during ssm mode. It could be interpreted either way I suppose.

            Here is what point 71 in the court filing said. I read the last statement to state that a cop>50 was achieved during the same period (ie 350 out of 400 days)

            71. On February 15, 2016, the Guaranteed Performance test was successfully concluded. The E-Cat Unit had successfully operated for more than three hundred fifty (350) days out of a four hundred (400) day period at a level substantially greater than the level achieved during the Validation Test. By all accounts, the amount of energy produced by the E-Cat Unit during the Guaranteed Performance Test was substantially greater than fifty (50) times the amount of energy consumed by the E-Cat Unit during the same period.

    • akupaku

      I am a bit worried about the tone of his answers to these and other recent questions which seem to express defiance and maybe even anger. Instead he needs a cool head now and not let emotions and feelings take over. And I think he should be a little more careful what he says publicly, it might be used against him in the court.

      Puffing himself like a peacock from LENR G below is a good one! Might be true too, lol. On the other hand, I think he has before given an image of a humble and peaceful man.

    • Jarea

      Bob is it you?. Are you back? I am really happy if you decided to start commenting again. You see your comments are always welcomed.

  • If Industrial Heat claims that they suggested several impartial ERVs and Rossi insisted on Penon, then you may have something.

    But what you’re basically saying is that you’re a conspiracy theorist and that Penon has been in on a 5 year old and still running scam despite the fact that he could have headed for the hills after a nifty payout several years ago.

    • AdrianAshfield

      My understanding is that IH hired him for the original 24 hour test so he in not connected to Rossi..

      • Penon did a test for Rossi in Aug 2012.
        https://www.scribd.com/doc/105322688/Penon4-1

        That was before the 24hr test for IH in May 2013.

        However IH and Rossi entered into their license agreement in Oct 2012. So it’s possible that Penon and IH were connected back in Aug 2012 too. So it’s really unclear if the initial connection was with Rossi, with IH or with both simultaneously by pre-license agreement.

        • AdrianAshfield

          OK. I will look

          • I didn’t say I didn’t think it was independent.

            I just find the timing curious is all and am wondering when IH started to have an impact. Did Rossi get that report done because IH was already sniffing around and wanted something like that done? Maybe IH suggested Penon in the first place? Just speculating.

        • Ged

          Someone doing a test for someone is not a connection to them. If IH asked him to run a test on their behalf (as they did the 24 hour one, which we did not know till the release of documents), that doesn’t mean he’s in any way connected to Rossi. Given how long it takes to set up a contract and get it signed and into effect, it’s highly likely IH was there at July/Aug 2012 as the first test that made them enter an agreement.

          But the thing is, none of that matters, as testing a product does not mean you have a connection to the corporation and product you tested (otherwise, UL and CE and all the others are connected to the people they test and their tests are “invalid”, by that logic. Remember, the people they test are paying them, so isn’t that “conflict of interest”, but that logic?).

          A connection would mean that Penon worked as an employee for Rossi, or Rossi worked as an employee for Penon, or Penon is otherwise financially invested in Rossi’s invention/corporation. Only -that- would be considered a connection.

          So many red herrings thrown around about this guy. Unless IH proves such a connection, the fact IH hired him on (since they are paying him; and this happened at least two times), says he’s their guy and they are happy with him.

          • Agreed. Still, exactly when and how Penon entered the picture is of interest to me.

            If he was brought in to facilitate a pending agreement between Rossi and IH and is basically IH’s guy validating the first E-Cats, then of course they would use him for the subsequent tests.

            Or if Rossi knew him prior to all that, then that is interesting too.

          • Ged

            I completely agree. As far as it -currently- seems–and new evidence could change this, but such evidence does not yet currently exist–Penon appears only when IH appears, so those are the only two that are linked. Would be very interesting if we can backtrack him to any time before that though, see if he’s done any other work for IH/Cherokee or Rossi or anyone else.

          • psi2u2

            ” A jury WILL and should find the report to be invalid because of the documented connection to Rossi.”

            Who died and made you judge, jury, and executioner? Imho, it would be very wise at this point in time to avoid these kinds of remarkable prejudgments about what a jury should, would, or could do, based on the evidence in our possession. Nobody here is ignoring the fact that Penon was the arbitrator in a previous test. For one thing, it seems to be almost the only thing you’re interested in talking about, and the issues has been raised multiple times and addressed multiple times on this very thread, but you still keep arriving more and more aggressively at these premature conclusions. Take a deep breath.

  • Actually, some of us non-Christians are quite patient, too.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    Unbelievable statement without even seeing the report. Just think about the number of people who have to be fools or part of a Rossi conspiracy, intelligent scientists, scores of first hand observers, science reporters and now MFMP. You have been reading way too much Krivit and Maryyugo.

  • When threatened Rossi puffs himself up like a peacock and he has made similar claims of industrialization before.

    I’m inclined to believe, as he claims, that he has a 30+ person company proceeding to commercialization with ABB setting up the robots in LC’s factory now or soon. But some corroboration would be nice.

    • Michael W Wolf

      Yea, a lot of people here have done some real work pointing out facts that would otherwise be unknown to us. They are like Rossi’s unpaid attorneys. Without them the skeptics really would have made Rossi look like a scam artist. He imo definitely owes them something. If not just a thank you.

  • Not a conflict of interest if they both agreed.

    If the court case comes down to the validity of the report and IH challenges it then they can simply call in impartial experts to do some more measurements. We are told the plant is still running.

  • Skip

    I believe the certification has been received for industrial use. The certification for residential use is hopefully forthcoming, probably after the industrial use is proven safe and productive.

    • builditnow

      Skip is right, I’ve repeatedly heard that the industrial certification has been issued but the residential has not. I don’t have any absolute proof either way however. I think this information comes from Rossi’s blog entries. Can anyone verify the industrial certification?

      • LarryJ

        Rossi just finished a 1 year test of his 1 MW reactor in an industrial operation. That could not have been done without certification.

  • HS61AF91

    http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/specials/clean-tech/cold-fusion-this-time-for-real/article8467507.ece Nice article from 12 April newspaper out of India, The Hindu Business Line title: “Cold fusion: This time for real?” Word is getting out.

    • I love that there’s 4 dudes in there, none of them Rossi.

      Where’s the scam button dammit!? Gotta be here somewhere.

      • Mike

        Is it the e-cat that was tested for 350+ days? How many units? Can’t be 4×250 kW. It looks more like 40×25 kW to me.

        • Michael W Wolf

          As I remember it started as 100 ecats, later it became 4. I don’t know when the transition took place.

          • US_Citizen71
          • Mike

            I have asked before if the plant design changed substantially during the one year test. You think it changed. What is then the value of the test if the design changed during the test?

          • BillH

            If the test was started and concluded with the x4 250KW units, and this was agreed on by IH, then the test is still valid, but that’s a big IF. But the continuation of the test and IH’s staff on site suggests that they did agree.

          • wpj

            Frank checked back and the whole test was done (from Feb 2015) with the 4 x 250 units. It appears that they tried with the 100 set-up, but had too many problems and had to abort.

            The 100 appears to be from the test set up in Italy for the 24h test (though only some were operating according to the patent specs). Thus, there is credence to the fact that IH people were involved in the construction of the 250mW units (and there were pictures as well) though the sauce aspect may be in contention.

        • Steve Swatman

          After the initial build, the container was upgraded to 4x 250watt cats and the old cats are maintained as a backup, JIC which I believe were never required once the 4x250watt ecats were started up. and while all of this was ongoing Rossi was playing with his new “Quarks” which possibly makes the 100 and 250watt ecats obsolete.

        • kenko1

          I think you’re right. 4 ‘packs of 10 ecat cores. One set of electronics/controllers for each pack of 10. The newer ‘Quarks’ may be even fewer per pack, or smaller overall depending on the usage(heat-electricity-light or a combination.)

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    Let us talk about “good faith”. If Rossi gave IH a reactor that worked and they immediately started investing in Rossi competitors and showing them Rossi IP and even making a patent application based on Rossi IP that included another “inventor” and IH stated they were building a new “lab” not a manufacturing facility but a “lab”; this tells me they had no intention of completing the year long test and were trying to cheat Rossi out of 89 million. Greed, Power and Control!

    • Anon2012_2014

      “immediately started investing in competitors … tells me [IH] had no intention of completing the test and were trying to cheat Rossi”

      Huh???

      Why exactly should Industrial Heat not be fully in the LENR business. Where in the license agreement does it say that IH can’t diversify its investment in LENR?

      As long as IH did not transfer technology, something that we have no evidence for besides what Mr. Rossi has claimed in his one sided blog, how exactly did they violate the contract (in good faith or otherwise)? What is Industrial Heat suppose to be — dupes that put all their eggs into one basket because the counterparty has non-contractual expectations of being the single relationship? IH is not a spouse in marriage, it is a business and like most businesses they may have many relationships that do not violate any of their contracts.

      • Axil Axil

        I.H, support of competitors must have pissed Rossi to high heaven because that move directly contravenes Rossi’s strategy to fill the market with low cost LENR to starve the competition to death. Rossi could not stay in the I.H paernership. He needed to be free to flood the market with low cost LENR.

        • Anon2012_2014

          We have no idea what kind of margin or profit Rossi intended beyond his statements, and hand waiving about supporting children with cancer (who wouldn’t?). I always felt his business plan of country licensing rather than selling equity to investors was strange — reminded me of multi-level marketing where you sell some rights but keeping the core so that only Rossi ends up being the $Tillionaire.

      • Omega Z

        Actually, the agreement doesn’t seem to limit IH from diversifying its investment in LENR once the agreement is concluded. However, the agreement is yet concluded. So this could be considered a breach of the contract.

  • wpj

    Doctori is just a term that was used out of respect for university graduates in the old days before they were two a penny.

  • Omega Z

    What I find quite interesting is that Industrial heat personnel had a hand in building the 1MW pilot plant. That IH had “Their” people there everyday of the 350+ day test.(You’d think at 30 days no excess heat would have ended the test) That it ran nearly a year under continuous monitoring by them says much.

    During the 1 year test, Industrial heat brought multiple potential investors to see it. They said- We built it. It works. Investors invested. Did Industrial heat mislead the investors. But all you can talk about is Pink Elephants. You must of gotten the good drugs.

    • Michael W Wolf

      You are absolutely right. The skeptics will say anything and have no credibility left IMO. They are loose with the facts and big on slander. Frank removes my comments when I use profanity in my justifiable rage against these malicious people. He should remove any comment that slanders Rossi. They get more leeway than I do from Frank.

      • roseland67

        No they don’t
        Frank is judge, Jury and executioner
        at Ecat World,
        If what you are suggesting does not “toe the company line” there is a good chance your comments will be deleted.
        Make no mistake, this is Frank’s blog, and even tho he tries to be a fair and impartial journalist, he clearly has an agenda.
        “IF”, The Ecat and Rossi turn out to be “less than genuine”, and I’m not saying they are, what happens to the blog?

        • US_Citizen71

          I think you are being a little absolute in your judgement of Frank. The posting rules are free for anyone to read and short of expletives and libelous statements most things are allowed to be posted. Most view points can be stated without becoming libelous, you just have to choose your words and how you put them together carefully.

    • Bob

      My only comment is about the above “facts”…. is that they are completely unproven.
      We do not know thet were there 350+ days. We do not know IH had their people there. We do not know who and when monitored the tests. We do not know who was brought to see it. All we have is what Rossi filed.
      .
      We also have that IH stated Rossi’s statements are without merit!
      .
      Who is telling the truth!?! Just because there is a filing, that does not mean it is true, completely true or simply “painted in a different color”. There is a lawsuit and I for one will wait to see what comes of it. IH / Tom Darden deserves the “innocent until proven guilty” as with anyone!
      .
      I look at history.. In my admittedly cursory search on Tom Darden, nothing but positive posts have been made. Successful, respected, has made a career out of a good cause…. I could find no “mud” on him at all. The SEC ruling is not a smear if you actually take time to read it and learn the facts. Darden and Cherokee are in good standing with the SEC. Yes a fine was issued and they did pay it. Similar things with Apple, Google, Ford, GM, G.E., Berkshire Hathaway and many, many other companies have happened. They are not all devils because often rulings are the results of mistakes or errors, not intentional criminal activity.
      .
      Look at Rossi’s history…. not so unblemished… however, also much misaligned for some things he did not do. However, he has also not delivered anything that has been proven or useful, just many “Rossi says” and for many years.
      .
      I am not the jury and I do not have the facts. I cannot judge Rossi guilty but I CERTAINLY cannot libel Tom Darden and call him evil. One of these individuals does have a much more proven, positive, long term history than the other. That does at least deserve withholding all the venomous judgement.
      .
      Again, I think I will save this post and bring it back up in 6 months to see where we are!

  • If Industrial Heat challenges the validity of the test report from the ERV despite having agreed to that ERV then the burden of proof that it is somehow fraudulent is on them. This will be difficult as we are told there were three sets of independent measurements that all agreed within the margin or error and that the COP is, let’s say, well over 6 which means the measurement error or means of deceit will have to be easy to spot. Throw in 24 hour video surveillance and testimony of a happy customer that can corroborate the energy balance through bottom line means and Industrial Heat has their work cut out for them.

    Unless Rossi is lying about all these things, which of course is possible.

    • kdk

      I don’t see what he would be hoping to gain by lying to us about it. We’ll see within a few weeks which points if any IH contests. It certainly wouldn’t be a good way to start a case, by making so many bold claims with no evidence. If Rossi is a scammer, he’s a very, very, very good one and that doesn’t seem like a plausible way to keep this, supposedly, however many year long scam going.

      • there is two direction to attack rossi, reasonabley.
        one is that his numerous bad tests are ther to hide, real but insufficient performance.

        the second is that his really good resulst, are simply un shared secrets, and rossi is pathologically unable to respect the sharing agreement he was paid for.

        I have elements to support both theories from people who know about the various tests, and from what we all know from his personality.

        what surprised me more, from witnesses, is how Darden is a human, beside being a businessman.
        He have claws, but heart too, and he is not a shark at all. I’m even afraid for him facing greed in LENR…. but maybe 10.5Mn is affordable for he and his investors.

        beside that I have great expectation for the varied team he have built.
        When this affair will be closed, I think we should bet on Darden.

  • Ged

    Ok, what is the documented connection to Rossi? People here have looked through the records, but maybe we missed something. Please provide the direct evidence for your statement, as I am curious to see more.

  • It does enable some really spectacular possible futures.

    But don’t underestimate our capacity as a species to screw it up somehow. Imagine a very thin ultra upper class owning everything and most jobs replaced with robots, while the rest of us have to do what that thin slice wants us to do because they have something we want. Or the conflicts between modernity and superstition continue to expand and deepen, fed by cheap energy to power asymmetric warfare.

    But that’s kind of cynical. I am more optimistic than that.

  • Anon2012_2014

    @Fenrick:

    “All of that is all good and well except it makes little difference as Rossi is contractually obligated to transfer all knowledge. If he did not do this for ANY reason…that is a breach of contract”

    Interesting and excellent point. The ball then has been served into IH’s court and we would expect counterclaims for both damages and performance i.e. to force Rossi to supply the technical know how and thus allow a third party (i.e. not Rossi) to build the reactor and thus make the demo into a commercially deliverable device.

    What exactly would IH pay Rossi $89 mm without a commercially deliverable device. IH wants to be in the business of selling E-Cat plants in North/South America and China. If Rossi doesn’t deliver sufficient know how to build and operate an E-Cat commercially, the demo plant is a bunch of scrap metal sitting in a hangar.

  • psi2u2

    Are you a lawyer? If not, I would suggest refraining from drawing legal conclusions.

  • Axil Axil

    LENR will greatly increase the purview of mankind. We are like now cavemen compared to where man will be standing in the future under the sway of LENR.

    In this new age of LENR, the scope of greed will expand like everything else; men will fight over control of star systems.

  • Omega Z

    Yes, I think something is fishy as well.

    Why do they use an ERV who’s had an ongoing relationship with Industrial heat since 2012. Rossi shoul question this.

    Not Really, I think Industrial heats purpose of using someone with known association to them is to limit external exposure. The more people involved, the more likely information will leak out…

  • pg

    Like VHS vs Betamax war, this one will be won by something we have not forseen yet. (probably not porn in this case.) Anyway it’s fun to be speculating about it.

  • Michael W Wolf

    That is IH’s fault. Why are you blaming Rossi?

  • US_Citizen71

    Actually no. The only forced transfer of IP by any timetable was after the 24 hour report, nothing in the agreement states otherwise. It states that IH can use patents, trademarks, etc. but never states Rossi/LC must transfer knowledge that they exist or documents containing them to IH. Read the agreement.

    • Alex Fenrick

      I have read it…and that is your personal perspective….I think you missed some significant parts.

      • US_Citizen71

        So please show where a another timetable is spelled out other than directly after the 24 hour test for IP transfer.

  • roseland67

    Alex,
    How exactly do you know that no one had seen the report?

  • Ged

    As has already been discussed, IH was vetting Rossi at the time this happened. Thus, Penon only appears when IH is in play, but as of yet, never appears before hand. I’m sorry, but this does not support your case. You’ll have to find something farther in the past that is completely unconnected to IH (before IH existed would be good, since as far as we know, IH was created specifically for investing into Rossi, and then branched towards other LENRs).

  • Michael W Wolf

    Ad I remember it started as 100 ecats, later it became 4. I don’t know when the transition took place.

    • US_Citizen71
    • wpj

      Frank checked back and the whole test was done (from Feb 2015) with the 4 x 250 units. It appears that they tried with the 100 set-up, but had too many problems and had to abort.

      The 100 appears to be from the test set up in Italy for the 24h test (though only some were operating according to the patent specs). Thus, there is credence to the fact that IH people were involved in the construction of the 250mW units (and there were pictures as well) though the sauce aspect may be in contention.

  • Ged

    Additionally, someone contract testing a technology is not “connected” to the person they are testing in any way, shape, nor form. So that logic is a complete fallacy. Gotta show a financial stake such as investment or regular employment.

  • Ged

    Very true. We will learn a whole lot more when IH puts up its defense. Could be they know more about Penon’s past, and could attack that if indeed he is connected to Rossi (actually “materially” connected, not simply having been contacted to run a test to gain IH as an investor as was done in 2012).

    It would still not completely help them, since they agreed to him on subsequent tests.

  • Ged

    Guess we’ll find out on the next exciting episode!

    • DrD

      Not if he was intending to transfer the last bit’s after final payment, Remember this bit had no time limit.

  • Michael W Wolf

    Rossi is continually vindicated when adhoc allegations that are continually thrown at him. There hasn’t been an accusation where Rossi proved to be lying. Only wishful thinking. Ih on the other hand, has said only a few things that have been found to be inaccurate or dishonest, Either way they have completely contradicted themselves and not one of the skeptics I’ve heard ever caught it. Rossi fans have, and I don’t see skeptics recanting or admitting they have made said mistakes. Skeptic have been shown to be slanderous and untrustworthy for anyone with an ounce of intellectual honesty. But I do see Rossi fans agreeing with reasonable skepticism.

    • Ged

      Thankfully, reasonable skepticism helps to keep everyone honest. We are learning a lot in all this chaos, at least.

    • LarryJ

      IH have not really said anything to date other than the normal legalese and a very short and meaningless statement that they could not replicate Rossi’s reactor. I think IH are now full steam ahead on trying to bring their product to market before Rossi can bring his. First you grab market share, then you fight over who owns the IP. IH know enough now to effectively compete against Leonardo and that is all they need.

  • Michael W Wolf

    I don’t see anyone saying that there wasn’t a REAL independent validation of the now known footprint of the Higgs Bison particle found to be 126.2 GEV. Because of it, they have secured millions of dollars in public funding. What do we get from it? Nothing just, more money out of our pockets for UNSUBSTANTIATED conjecture. Why don’t you go bark up that tree?

    • Obvious

      Those CERN folks know each other. Many for years. Collusion!

      • US_Citizen71

        ; )

    • Jarea

      Not fair.
      I think CERN is based in open science and the material is open and accessible for the scientific community.
      All knowledge and studies must be accessible so that a member of the group can prove independently that the results are either faked or can be trusted. They can´t build another collider because it is a too expensive solution but the peer review is done by allowing many different and competing parties to participate in the building, collection and interpretation of the results. The communication of results is done by consensus.
      This is is different of what it has happened with the money interest and obscure protection done with LENR. I have said many times, that Rossi has already ensured his money, his patent, we now must do LENR mainstream with a big demostration. In my opinion, only MFMP has done right from the beginning, even better than CENR 🙂 because the experiment are real-time available on internet.

  • Frank Acland

    It’s a good reminder that ‘needlessly repetitive’ posting goes against commenting guidelines for ECW

  • US_Citizen71

    The whole epic tale of the (E-)Cat and the mouse might be worth a revisit in light of recent events and the revealing of how long IH and Rossi have been affiliate. Was Rossi talking about the situation allegorically?

  • US_Citizen71

    The whole epic tale of the (E-)Cat and the mouse might be worth a revisit in light of recent events and the revealing of how long IH and Rossi have been affiliate. Was Rossi talking about the situation allegorically? Several of his joking comments might have a bit of truth in them.

  • US_Citizen71

    The second amendment to the contract changed the design for the plant to a six pack of HotCats. – http://www.sifferkoll.se/sifferkoll/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Rossi_et_al_v_Darden_et_al__flsdce-16-21199__0001.4.pdf Looking back the HotCats being tested must have been prototype cores for the 1MW plant. – http://www.e-catworld.com/2013/12/29/rossi-provides-more-explosive-e-cat-information/ Were they designed that way to contain a dog bone on steroids? It looks like we knew more than we thought we did back then, but we just didn’t have context.

    • DrD

      Didn’t he end up with just four 250kW modules as the 1MW (plus back-ups)?

      • US_Citizen71

        Yes that is the claim, but the amendment allowed Rossi to change the design as needed to get the results demanded by the test.

  • Nicholas Payne

    you can get a pacer account for free, you don’t have to pay these people

    • Anon2012_2014

      Cost something like 10 cents per page to download from Pacer. It seems there is no copyright on the Pacer material so you can then put it up on a public shared drive.

  • Nicholas Payne

    you can get a pacer account for free, you don’t have to pay these people

    • Anon2012_2014

      Cost something like 10 cents per page to download from Pacer. It seems there is no copyright on the Pacer material so you can then put it up on a public shared drive.

      • Nicholas Payne

        Exactly, this is public information . Also if your bill from downloading pages in less than $15, they waive it anyway.

  • Jerry Soloman

    WOW Very interesting post on Rossi Blog responding to a question by Susan Appleby.

    Susan Appleby
    April 12, 2016 at 8:53 PM

    Dr Rossi

    .. once and for all could you confirm this:

    Industrial heat personnel – had a hand in building the 1MW pilot plant. That IH had “Their” people there everyday of the 350+ day test.

    Thank You,

    Susan Appleby
    ————————-
    Andrea Rossi
    April 12, 2016 at 9:53 PM

    Susan Appleby:

    Yes,

    I confirm .

    Warm Regards,

    A.R.

    =======================

    • Michael W Wolf

      We already knew that. IH seems to deny it.

      • They have not denied it. They only said they could not substantiate Rossis claims. Completely different thing

        • bachcole

          Clarity of thought is so important, particularly now in these circumstances.

        • Brent Buckner

          Michael W Wolf wrote that “IH seems to deny it” not that “IH denies it”. Completely different thing!
          😀

  • LarryJ

    This lawsuit and its appeals will drag on for years and there is no way that the technology will wait for years. The latest patent application from IH shows a COP of 11 or 12 and as far as I know IH still has the 1 MW reactor which they did pay for and which tested at a COP of 50.

    I would expect to see IH start to build and sell 1 MW reactors throughout the world in direct competition with Leonardo’s quarkx. Why on earth would they wait unless they truly are unable to replicate the tech which at this point appears very unlikely. One day far in the future either IH will owe Leonardo licensing fees or vice versa but in the meantime we will have two major players who both have a claim (justified or not) to the technology and they will both proceed at full speed. So expect business as usual.

    This lawsuit will not affect development of the technology. It will only affect who gets the lions share of the IP in the long run. IH might lose the court battle but still win the war in terms of market share. But Rossi is the creative genius so his products might well be far superior. Who knows but the story just keeps getting more interesting every day.

    The real winner will be the consumer as two new mega corporations are born and fight for supremacy.

    • Fedir Mykhaylov

      COP = 50 apparently relates to self-sustaining mode without using heating elements. Electricity is spent only on the excitation system .

      • LarryJ

        You might be right but I am not sure. Two figures, 50 and 60 were given and I have assumed that 50 was the average between powered and ssm mode and that cop > 60 was the peak achieved during ssm mode. It could be interpreted either way I suppose.

        Here is what point 71 in the court filing said. I read the last statement to state that a cop>50 was achieved during the same period (ie 350 out of 400 days)

        71. On February 15, 2016, the Guaranteed Performance test was successfully concluded. The E-Cat Unit had successfully operated for more than three hundred fifty (350) days out of a four hundred (400) day period at a level substantially greater than the level achieved during the Validation Test. By all accounts, the amount of energy produced by the E-Cat Unit during the Guaranteed Performance Test was substantially greater than fifty (50) times the amount of energy consumed by the E-Cat Unit during the same period.

  • LarryJ

    Check the record and you will see that quite a lot has been accomplished in the last 5 years. The road from lab to market is not paved, expect a few bumps and potholes along the way.

    • Bruce__H

      I can’t see anything that has been accomplished in the last 5 years. Five years ago – more actually – Rossi was claiming that he had an operational ecat device heating factory buildings, that he had a mysterious customer who was happy with what they saw, and that he was ready to swing into production within a year. I don’t see the change.

      In fact 25 yeas ago I recall there were many groups worldwide feverishly working to replicate results that had been announced with great fanfare (Pons and Fleishman of course). Some of the groups were getting glimmers of results and there was terrific excitement in the air. A close friend of mine at the time was part of a group at the national nuclear research facility in Chalk River in Canada who were attempting such a replication. The very first time they tried it they got a burst of unexplained heat. Big success! But then they could never repeat it. No one else has ever got reliable results either. Such things happen in science. I don’t see the change.

      • LarryJ

        How about two separate independent third party tests that confirmed the reactor, a full one year test on a 1 MW reactor built and designed for use in a commercial environment, followed by what we believe to be a very positive ERV report. The commercial reactor also has safety certification. These are all pretty big deals that show a steady and rationally planned move to developing reactors for the market.

        I don’t recall Rossi ever saying he had reactors heating factories. I do recall him saying that he heated his own facility with one. He did say he was ready to go on domestic heaters but then ran into the safety certification issue which was beyond his control. I do believe he sold his original 1 MW reactor. The customer was never identified but was rumoured to be the US military.

        If you are interested you should read Mats Lewan’s book An Impossible Invention. It contains a lot of detail on the obstacles that Rossi has had to overcome in an effort to bring this tech to the market. It has been a rocky road and given the nature of the invention that is not surprising.

  • LarryJ

    The report was never intended as an independent validation of the technology. How could it be. It was commissioned and paid for entirely in house. It was intended to prove the technology was commercially viable and to referee the contract between IH and Leonardo who each paid 50% of the cost. The parties agreed to the ERV prior to the start of the test. Rossi has also stated that the report was never intended for the public. No report will ever convince the public, only products will do that.

  • LarryJ

    It would be a very poor lawyer who allowed information from a nonexistent report to be included in his clients statement of claim. I think it is safe to say that his lawyer has seen it.

  • LarryJ

    Your point is irrelevant. The involved parties did agree that Penon could do the report and that his would be the final word on the matter. Usually we don’t have much to go on but that fact has been entered in the record.

  • There is a lot of talk that ends up in the conclusion that someone has to lie. Following Occams razor and the fact that is kind of stupid to put flat out lies in a legal complaint which easily can be countered by a low-range lawyer, the most probable scenario I believe is that both Rossi and Darden are more or less telling the truth, although probably leaving out facts not the their advantage.

    http://www.sifferkoll.se/sifferkoll/the-rossi-vs-darden-lenr-saga-is-it-possible-that-they-both-are-telling-the-truth/

    • Julio Ruben Vazquez Turnes

      There is another option. They are both in the same boat and that was the best way they saw to be sure that the patents get approved and not rejected.

      They will show the data to a Judge and he will state that the technology works.

      Why to do that? Maybe because once they start to sell the E-Cats anyone would have access to both the reactor and the fuel so they could be replicated withouth being paid for the license.

      If the judge compiles that the technology works and “forces” IH to pay Rossy, then the patent offices would have to approve the Patents, the new and the older ones.

      That would be a win – win situation for IH and Rossi. And it could be a Bad Cop – Good Cop scheme.

      All this post is merely speculation. I do not intend to say that it is true at all. Neither Rossi or IH should take it as a proof or accusation againts them. It may be absolutely far from the reality.
      It is just a educate guess of one of multiple possibilities.

      • Yes, I’ve considered that, but don’t really think it fits under Occams razor. Too many uncertainties as you say.

        • Julio Ruben Vazquez Turnes

          Yes I know. I guess we would need to wait until April 26th when IH surely would add his reply to the lawsuit to know wich one of the different guesses is more accurate.

      • Omega Z

        Rossi’s existing patents cover the core of the technology. Others could and will reverse engineer it, but will need to create their own specific technology.

        • Julio Ruben Vazquez Turnes

          But the problem is that currently the IP is not fully covered because the patents wich especifically talk about LENR were rejected with the clause – This contravenues the laws of phisics
          Sorry if some of the words are bad written.

          • Omega Z

            No one can patent LENR/CF anymore then you can patent the wind.
            But you can patent specific wind turbine designs & processes while referring to the wind.

            You can also patent specific reactor designs and processes and may refer to LENR. There is even a section in the patent literature with corresponding code that refers to LENR/Cold Fusion. What you can’t do is imply in anyway that you are claiming or patenting LENR. Even if LENR was accepted, you still couldn’t patent LENR.

            Rossi only patented the reactors, hardware, the corresponding processes and the end result even stating that the process produced more energy out then was applied to the reactor. along with that he also referenced accepted scientific papers. This is how Rossi obtained his U.S. Patent. Note: Due to USPTO caused delays. Rossi’s patent was extended by 609 days.

            This is also how NASA, SPAWAR and others have obtained multiple LENR related patents.

            So back to reverse engineering, They would still have to develop their own unique reactors etc. If they copy Rossi’s, they are infringing. All his technology is protected.

      • BillH

        I doubt a Judge has sufficient knowledge or information to validate a patent so that puts it back in the Patent Office’s domain, they wont be pressured into an early approval and may even take even longer, as $89M may rely on it.

    • Omega Z

      The vague “substantiate” statement leaves much room to speculate. Time having past, I intertain another possibility.

      The agreement is about Milestones.
      Milestone 1)- Achieved, paid 1.5 M$
      Milestone 2)- Achieved, paid 10 M$ -Rossi effect proven
      Milestone 3)- In Question, unpaid 89 M$

      Milestone 3)- Involved a 1 year test.
      Purpose- To prove the technology is viable and ready for a marketable product among other things.

      Known is that Rossi had many issues during the test keeping it stable and in good standing. Many problems overcome and additional issues that would require modification on the next product iteration.

      In Rossi’s eyes, this is a done product and that Industrial heat and their people can finish out the product for market. Pay date…

      Industrial heat being of the view that it is not yet complete. They do not see the product having been substantiated, proven, ready for market. No pay date.

      Not receiving the 89 M$ puts Industrial heat in breach including the other actions taken that would be allowable had the contract been honored with the 89 M$ payment.

      • psi2u2

        Good analysis.

      • Billy Jackson

        the only thing i could see that might make IH put a hold on things.. is if the product is to temperamental. A product that you can sell should not require a scientist on site 16 hours a day. We know the plant had teething issues. the question becomes … will it run on site for months without constant supervision? or nothing more than a trained employee to make sure the controls are set right…

        If it requires a bunch of labor and constant maintenance it may well not be worth the headache when the cost of running and maintaining it is worth more than the savings. That is all engineering.. and it may not be ready for prime time yet on that front.

        • DrD

          Like a consultant Doctor with his stethoscope in attendance 16/7. It seems it was so for the protoype but I think the consultant will not be needed for the production models. Perhaps it will be part of IH counter claim though, that it could not run unattended or the like.

          • Billy Jackson

            You would think the engineering would be solvable. may not be cheap.. and may even add to the cost.. but a COP of 50 leaves alot of wiggle room for cost…

        • Omega Z

          Yes, That’s my point and Rossi may think close enough, IH people can handle the minor problems. But IH may have a different opinion.

      • wpj

        Weren’t most of the problems plumbing ones? I can only recollect them stating that one of the reactors had to shut down on a couple of occasions (plus the 2 that started to show lower efficiency towards the end of the test due to the different charge loading).

        Where in the contract did it say that it had to be proven, ready for market? It was just an internal validation test for the COP, by all reports, to complete the terms of the licence. Additionally, if “Guest” is correct, IH wasn’t at all bothered about the 1 year test which would scupper the argument as well.

        • Omega Z

          AS Per the Contract, This TEST was always for Industrial Heat.

          A 1 MW plant in real world use, hence the requirement of the customer for that purpose. COP, radiations, etc could all be answered in 1 or 2 months and wouldn’t require a 1 year test.

          As I’ve posted multiple times during the test, determining stability and reliability was the primary purpose of the test. IH would not want to pay you 89 M$ for a product that is of no real world use.

          Yes, It appears a substantial portion of issues was plumbing problems. These are of little consequence as this would vary by how it’s utilized and highly probable it would be done by experts of the field.

          Rossi stated in an interview that their biggest challenge was stability issues. Tho many of these issues were dealt with, some could only be dealt with after the 1 year test. On JONP, he said there were some things that couldn’t be dealt with without changing the test parameters that was not allowed.

          NOTE: A COP>50 is of no use if it can’t be controlled and stability and reliability are an issue. These issues would need to be rectified to complete the contract..

          You are now left with 2 parties with a different perspective of the test being successful. I say it’s proven out, you claim it isn’t yet substantiated.

          Some of Rossi complaints(Not All) would be null had the payment been made as the contract would allow them. However, the contract isn’t completed
          ————————————————————————-
          Years ago, I witnessed a Robotic project. 2 M$ of labratory design and work, the robot was put into a real world factory. Fantastic. 1 person could now do 300% more work. Or a productivity gain of 300% for that specific task. It was invaluable.

          For 1 or 2 hours anyway. Then it went of the tracks ripping the protective personnel cage out of the concrete, slinging hot steel everywhere. After weeks of reworking the issues, It was just a repeat. After 4 years of this rinse repeat process and Million$ in cost, It was eventual scrapped.

  • There is a lot of talk that ends up in the conclusion that someone has to lie. Following Occams razor and the fact that is kind of stupid to put flat out lies in a legal complaint which easily can be countered by a low-range lawyer, the most probable scenario I believe is that both Rossi and Darden are more or less telling the truth, although probably leaving out facts not the their advantage.

    http://www.sifferkoll.se/sifferkoll/the-rossi-vs-darden-lenr-saga-is-it-possible-that-they-both-are-telling-the-truth/

    • akupaku

      My view exactly as I have stated before. Based on any real data and ignoring all the wild speculations and ranting that we have seen here and elsewhere these last days it is likely that they both (think) that they are (more or less) telling the truth. Until we hear more factual information it is too early to nail IH as the bad guys as many seem to be doing. And I can’t see any clear evidence that Rossi is a fraud like some people like to see him. More real and reliable information is needed to make a more accurate assessment of the situation.

      • psi2u2

        Exactly.

    • Julio Ruben Vazquez Turnes

      There is another option. They are both in the same boat and that was the best way they saw to be sure that the patents get approved and not rejected.

      They will show the data to a Judge and he will state that the technology works.

      Why to do that? Maybe because once they start to sell the E-Cats anyone would have access to both the reactor and the fuel so they could be replicated withouth being paid for the license.

      If the judge compiles that the technology works and “forces” IH to pay Rossy, then the patent offices would have to approve the Patents, the new and the older ones.

      That would be a win – win situation for IH and Rossi. And it could be a Bad Cop – Good Cop scheme.

      All this post is merely speculation. I do not intend to say that it is true at all. Neither Rossi or IH should take it as a proof or accusation againts them. It may be absolutely far from the reality.
      It is just a educate guess of one of multiple possibilities.

      • Yes, I’ve considered that, but don’t really think it fits under Occams razor. Too many uncertainties as you say.

        • Julio Ruben Vazquez Turnes

          Yes I know. I guess we would need to wait until April 26th when IH surely would add his reply to the lawsuit to know wich one of the different guesses is more accurate.

      • Omega Z

        Rossi’s existing patents cover the core of the technology. Others could and will reverse engineer it, but will need to create their own specific technology.

        • Julio Ruben Vazquez Turnes

          But the problem is that currently the IP is not fully covered because the patents wich especifically talk about LENR were rejected with the clause – This contravenues the laws of phisics
          Sorry if some of the words are bad written.

          • Omega Z

            No one can patent LENR/CF anymore then you can patent the wind.
            But you can patent specific wind turbine designs & processes while referring to the wind.

            You can also patent specific reactor designs and processes and may refer to LENR. There is even a section in the patent literature with corresponding code that refers to LENR/Cold Fusion. What you can’t do is imply in anyway that you are claiming or patenting LENR. Even if LENR was accepted, you still couldn’t patent LENR.

            Rossi only patented the reactors, hardware, the corresponding processes and the end result even stating that the process produced more energy out then was applied to the reactor. along with that he also referenced accepted scientific papers. This is how Rossi obtained his U.S. Patent. Note: Due to USPTO caused delays. Rossi’s patent was extended by 609 days.

            This is also how NASA, SPAWAR and others have obtained multiple LENR related patents.

            So back to reverse engineering, They would still have to develop their own unique reactors etc. If they copy Rossi’s, they are infringing. All his technology is protected.

      • BillH

        I doubt a Judge has sufficient knowledge or information to validate a patent so that puts it back in the Patent Office’s domain, they wont be pressured into an early approval and may even take even longer, as $89M may rely on it.

    • Omega Z

      The vague “substantiate” statement leaves much room to speculate. Time having past, I intertain another possibility.

      The agreement is about Milestones.
      Milestone 1)- Achieved, paid 1.5 M$
      Milestone 2)- Achieved, paid 10 M$ -Rossi effect proven
      Milestone 3)- In Question, unpaid 89 M$

      Milestone 3)- Involved a 1 year test.
      Purpose- To prove the technology is viable and ready for a marketable product among other things.

      Known is that Rossi had many issues during the test keeping it stable and in good standing. Many problems overcome and additional issues that would require modification on the next product iteration.

      In Rossi’s eyes, this is a done product and that Industrial heat and their people can finish out the product for market. Pay date…

      Industrial heat being of the view that it is not yet complete. They do not see the product having been substantiated, proven, ready for market. No pay date.

      Not receiving the 89 M$ puts Industrial heat in breach including the other actions taken that would be allowable had the contract been honored with the 89 M$ payment.

      • psi2u2

        Good analysis.

      • Jerry Soloman

        Omega Z – What you explain here is a legal argument for Industrial Heat to try and End or Terminate an agreement, this does not give IH the right to file Patents and solicit FUNDS from sophisticated investors based on Rossi IP then go out and patent your own reactor – That’s NOT how it works Omega Z sorry.

      • Billy Jackson

        the only thing i could see that might make IH put a hold on things.. is if the product is to temperamental. A product that you can sell should not require a scientist on site 16 hours a day. We know the plant had teething issues. the question becomes … will it run on site for months without constant supervision? or nothing more than a trained employee to make sure the controls are set right…

        If it requires a bunch of labor and constant maintenance it may well not be worth the headache when the cost of running and maintaining it is worth more than the savings. That is all engineering.. and it may not be ready for prime time yet on that front.

        • DrD

          Like a consultant Doctor with his stethoscope in attendance 16/7. It seems it was so for the protoype but I think the consultant will not be needed for the production models. Perhaps it will be part of IH counter claim though, that it could not run unattended or the like.

          • Billy Jackson

            You would think the engineering would be solvable. may not be cheap.. and may even add to the cost.. but a COP of 50 leaves alot of wiggle room for cost…

        • Omega Z

          Yes, That’s my point and Rossi may think close enough, IH people can handle the minor problems. But IH may have a different opinion.

      • wpj

        Weren’t most of the problems plumbing ones? I can only recollect them stating that one of the reactors had to shut down on a couple of occasions (plus the 2 that started to show lower efficiency towards the end of the test due to the different charge loading).

        Where in the contract did it say that it had to be proven, ready for market? It was just an internal validation test for the COP, by all reports, to complete the terms of the licence. Additionally, if “Guest” is correct, IH wasn’t at all bothered about the 1 year test which would scupper the argument as well.

        • Omega Z

          AS Per the Contract, This TEST was always for Industrial Heat.

          A 1 MW plant in real world use, hence the requirement of the customer for that purpose. COP, radiations, etc could all be answered in 1 or 2 months and wouldn’t require a 1 year test.

          As I’ve posted multiple times during the test, determining stability and reliability was the primary purpose of the test. IH would not want to pay you 89 M$ for a product that is of no real world use.

          Yes, It appears a substantial portion of issues was plumbing problems. These are of little consequence as this would vary by how it’s utilized and highly probable it would be done by experts of the field.

          Rossi stated in an interview that their biggest challenge was stability issues. Tho many of these issues were dealt with, some could only be dealt with after the 1 year test. On JONP, he said there were some things that couldn’t be dealt with without changing the test parameters that was not allowed.

          NOTE: A COP>50 is of no use if it can’t be controlled and stability and reliability are an issue. These issues would need to be rectified to complete the contract..

          You are now left with 2 parties with a different perspective of the test being successful. I say it’s proven out, you claim it isn’t yet substantiated.

          Some of Rossi complaints(Not All) would be null had the payment been made as the contract would allow them. However, the contract isn’t completed
          ————————————————————————-
          Years ago, I witnessed a Robotic project. 2 M$ of labratory design and work, the robot was put into a real world factory. Fantastic. 1 person could now do 300% more work. Or a productivity gain of 300% for that specific task. It was invaluable.

          For 1 or 2 hours anyway. Then it went of the tracks ripping the protective personnel cage out of the concrete, slinging hot steel everywhere. After weeks of reworking the issues, It was just a repeat. After 4 years of this rinse repeat process and Million$ in cost, It was eventual scrapped.

    • Rip Kirbyian

      Sifferkoll that is very much a APCO-like statement. Keep in mind that anyone including Sifferkoll could be an APCO agent.

      • Anon2012_2014

        “Sifferkoll that is very much a APCO-like statement. ”

        Rip, your statement is very much a troll accusatory statement (ad hominem) in that any statement that does not agree with your view of the subject matter is labelled a troll.

        I don’t think APCO has anything to do with anything here — this is just conspiracy speculation.

        • bachcole

          What the frick is APCO?

          • Karl Venter

            PR/Media company 2nd biggest privately owned in America
            Used for spin doctoring eg Want to cheat a customer and get publicity out there that it was his fault ( only an example not intended to implicate anybody or any specific example)

      • Brent Buckner

        Sifferkol might take offence in light of his comments about APCO on March 18:
        http://www.sifferkoll.se/sifferkoll/something-really-bothers-me-about-the-apcoworldwide-lenr-connection/

    • bachcole

      Probably. That seems more likely than the “scum-bag ‘gun'” whose business end Darden et. al. is currently looking at.

  • Ken

    Very annoying….the t to just view a single document

    • Anon2012_2014

      “the t to just view a single document”

      What are you talking about, Pacer? I find it surprising that we can view the documents for only 10 cents per page without any special credentials.

  • Jarea

    Bob is it you?. Are you back? I am really happy if you decided to start commenting again. You see your comments are always welcomed.

  • Gerard McEk

    Generally spoken:
    Every scientist and engineer can only do his work good if he is honest. At the moment dishonesty is revealed, he is disqualified for ever.
    Industrialists will strive to maximize their profit. They will look for the borders of safety, quality, cost of production, cost of loans, minimum risks and crush their compatitors. They are ruthless in achieving their goals, within the democratic and capitalistic borders.
    What about investors? With them you should weigh every word on a golden plate. Their words may not be untrue nor fully right. They want to earn money and serve their share holders to the best they can. They will always limit the risk but also walk on the brink of honesty to optimize the financial gain. They have no mercy with those who suffered financial loss, especially if that gave them profit, they probably are proud they are brighter …
    Question is: Is Rossi a scientist or more an industrialist?
    It will be a big fight and we are waiting again for LENR to emerge.

    • Pekka Janhunen

      More an industrialist (also according to AR himself), but when doing science, he tries to be a scientist, I think.

    • TVulgaris

      “Every scientist and engineer can only do his work good if he is honest.
      At the moment dishonesty is revealed, he is disqualified for ever.”
      Edison never suffered the slightest for publicly electrocuting dogs…

      • Gerard McEk

        I never read about his hobbies …., but did he lie about it?

  • Gerard McEk

    Generally spoken:
    Every scientist and engineer can only do his work good if he is honest. At the moment dishonesty is revealed, he is disqualified for ever.
    Industrialists will strive to maximize their profit. They will look for the borders of safety, quality, cost of production, cost of loans, minimum risks and crush their compatitors. They are ruthless in achieving their goals, within the democratic and capitalistic borders.
    What about investors? With them you should weigh every word on a golden plate. Their words may not be untrue nor fully right. They want to earn money and serve their share holders to the best they can. They will always limit the risk but also walk on the brink of honesty to optimize the financial gain. They have no mercy with those who suffered financial loss, especially if that gave them profit, they probably are proud they are brighter …
    Question is: Is Rossi a scientist or more an industrialist?
    It will be a big fight and we are waiting again for LENR to emerge.

    • Pekka Janhunen

      More an industrialist (also according to AR himself), but when doing science, he tries to be a scientist, I think.

    • TVulgaris

      “Every scientist and engineer can only do his work good if he is honest.
      At the moment dishonesty is revealed, he is disqualified for ever.”
      Edison never suffered the slightest for publicly electrocuting dogs…

      • Gerard McEk

        I never read about his hobbies …., but did he lie about it?

  • JDM

    Rather interesting on LENR-Forum that member BEC is fishing for info on triggering excess heat from ME356 thread.

    • artefact

      BEC like BrillouinEnergyCorporation?

  • JDM

    Rather interesting on LENR-Forum that member BEC is fishing for info on triggering excess heat from ME356 thread.

    • artefact

      BEC like BrillouinEnergyCorporation?

      • Jerry Soloman

        … rather Trolling .. for info on triggering excess heat – we know who they are ))

  • psi2u2

    Exactly.

  • psi2u2

    Thank you for being so polite and charming.

  • roseland67

    This reads like AR is being fed leading questions by his attorney.

  • artefact

    On JONP:

    “Patrick Ellul April 13, 2016 at 7:13 AM
    Dear Andrea,
    Jed Rothwell alleges that there is a second ERV of the 1 year 1MW plat test and that his report draws an opposite conclusion to the the one from the ERV that you described.
    Does this second ERV exist?
    Best regards, Patrick

    Andrea Rossi April 13, 2016 at 7:52 AM
    Patrick Ellul:
    Jed Rothwell is an intelligent person and has a remarkable sense of humor. Obviously he is joking.
    The only ERV has been the one accepted by contract from both the counterparts with a signed agreement.
    It is true that IH had their men constantly in the plant all the 352 days of the tests, and never said anything was wrong. As well as it is true that Tom Darden, JT Vaughn and their investors from Woodford and from China have been in the plant many times, have talked with the director of JM in his office of the factory, have made their investors talk with the director of JM, who said good things giving good references, based on which Woodford has given to Tom Darden 50-60 millions of dollars and the Chinese started with him a 200 million concern in China.
    Tom Darden , IT Vaughn also in this case danced like opera ballet etoiles around their investors, the director of JM, myself chanting ” Stellar, stellar”. No remarks of any sort have been communicated from IH, Cherokee Fund or Woodfors, let alone the Chinese, about the plant, the ERV, the Customer. Until our bill loomed. Witnesses available. In due time and place.
    Warm Regards, A.R.”

    • Jerry Soloman

      FACTS: Woodford has given to Tom Darden 50-60 millions of dollars and the Chinese started with Darden a 200 million concern in China.- IT’s no wonder Darden wants to get out of the Rossi contract/commitment with $$ billions to be made why “share” with the inventor – Scientist. – Excuse me, but Darden is no genius.

      • Anon2012_2014

        “FACTS”

        I think it is your speculation beyond the Woodford $50 mm investment which is public.

        1) Whatever the Chinese did, may or may not have included an investment in IH. It looked to me at the time that IH started a research facility in China, and that the Chinese contributed the use of a new industrial park (i.e. office buildings and factory space) that cost $200 million. If you can show me somewhere that IH took in $200 mm from China, I would appreciate it. All we know is that IH took in at total of $11.7 mm in 2013 and $50 mm from Woodford, and that a good deal of it has already been spent. It appears to me that IH has not made any money yet on this, as the investment is being spent down.

        2) “IT’s no wonder Darden wants to get out of the Rossi contract/commitment with $$ billions to be made why “share” with the inventor.” This is entirely speculation and not a fact. Darden might think there is NOTHING to be made from Rossi’s IP. Darden might have wanted to force Rossi to give him a working E-Cat that he can sell for the $100 mm licensing fee. The only “fact” that is not speculation was that in Darden’s mind, it was not worth $89 mm to pay on demand the money. We don’t know why.

      • Who is Barry West? He might be the linchpin in understanding what’s happening.

        So I doubt this is _our_ Barry West but who knows, it’s not like we’re not already in Bizzarro world:

        Barry West FDIC CIO Resigns After Mysterious Leave
        https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2015/08/17/barry-west-fdic-cio-resigns-after-mysterious-leave/

        But I say West might be important because if you take everyone at face value:
        Rossi happy, litigious
        Fabiani waxing poetic as late as November, only 3 months before test conclusion
        Penon pending but reportedly signed on to COP 50+ and has verified E-Cats multiple times
        JM Products plant customer reportedly met with investors and happy
        Darden happy through ICCF, now circling the wagons
        APCO hired recently for damage control (or product launch?)

        WEST the other man in the box… rumors of a counter-report in the negative… implication is that Rossi is a fraudster and WEST figured out the mechanism deep into the test changing IH’s position almost overnight.

        Stay tuned for our next exciting episode… same cat channel, same cat time.

    • artefact
      • Frank Acland

        Thanks very much — added above now.

      • wpj

        He seems to be as vitriolic about the ERV as GW and Freeenergyscams are about Rossi.

        Surely the only important thing is how much electricity was consumed and if it was enough to power the process at the factory (assuming there was one, no actors, etc etc).

        • As I wrote in my analysis ( http://www.sifferkoll.se/sifferkoll/the-rossi-lenr-saga-what-to-expect-from-the-apcoworldwide-pr-machine/ ), it is now essential for IH to attack Penon with ad-hominem arguments (ie. lack of credentials etc. not the actual report) to get them out of the legal mess. He has to be sacrificed. Jed is joining forces with Ahern, Cole and Beene executing, knowingly or not, what I would consider the Apco strategy of choice. Remember this is what these Apco people do for a living.

          • I disagree… there is many personal and shared opinion on that affair.

            Jed have a bad opinion on penon because he is not a HVAC US certified engineer.
            I’ve look at his CV, it looks good, and in EU engineer is MsC level, often Ivy league grade… anyway an expert in ISO9000 nuclear quality control may not be the best for spotting the trick of an inventor exaggerating performance and removing the test rig installed by IH to install the usual ambiguous Rossi-style setup.
            Let us see the report and IH critics. (I’ve heard some report by scientists or biz guys and I’m afraid).

            Brian Ahern is a lone guy in his long-time radical anti-rossi claims, but recent informations that circulate show that it is worse than what many imagined, and most were deeply dubious.

            Consensus is that there is something LENR, and that Rossi refuse to trust anybody, refuse to make a convincing test, and this is supported especially from people who met him of watched test or proposed test.
            Debate is if he have nothing, much less , or just want to maintain ambiguity.
            Consensus is that Darden is a “good boy”, especially from people who met him or work with him.
            Question is whether IH just have problem to replicate, or if the 1MW test is moreover flawed, failed, failed on reliability, or dubious.

            forget the conspiracy, this is just that some people share informations, feelings, impressions, anecdotes.

            Like many, my heart bleed from what I’ve learned, but there is nothing definitive.

            as a European citizen I don’t care whether it is Rossi or Darden who is the good boy, I just want LENR to be accepted, and to develop in EU, in Indonesia, in Africa.

            I just want that bath blood to stop.
            today I see many skeptic mainstream sources reporting the ridicule of this battle, and it is damaging the domain, and may block some funding.
            IT HAS TO STOP.

          • Pekka Janhunen

            Jed had the idea that a HVAC engineer would be good to do the job some years ago. The idea is not bad, but nowadays Jed seems to think that only an HVAC engineer is able to measure those plants, which is just silly. Of course any honest person with some technical skill can recognise a large COP such as 50.

          • I respect you position Alain. I also want the blood bath to stop. However, my intuition though says fight for the little guy. And in this game it is Rossi. There is no conspiracy, but there is damage control and implementation plans, that could go higher than IH. Apco being a hint. They have worked for NGOs and BigCorps for ages doing exactly this and I do not see them doing anything different here. These people do not want an energy revolution if it can be avoided. They want to be robust on the expense of the people and the antifragile. Read Taleb again. This is the perfect example.

          • Today I have a smile on my face
            Sure, there is no conspiracy against LENR.

            This affair is not so important, and maybe the end of E-cat story is a good news.
            It will allow serious guys to work.
            😉
            I wish so.

          • Not sure I agree on that. Or understand. The “serious guys” can work regardless of E-Cat in my opinion. I see no conflict there. And I do not believe in conspiracy, but only damage control (react) and executing some kind of strategy (proact) which is a little bit unclear as it need to suit both IH and Apco. And for Rossi this affair is important I believe. None of the people I have been in contact with that have met him personally has the view which is communicated by commentators and now indirectly by IH. In the Macy/Infinite energy interview also Darden expressed himself very positively about Rossi. He might be hard to work with and somewhat paranoid, but not a fraudster.

        • Barbierir

          He’s mostly reporting what he info he got from IH. His low opinion of Penon was already expressed in the past

      • Pekka Janhunen

        I was used to trust on what Jed says, but recently his remarks have been sometimes strange so I have a hard time following him. In this post he makes three strong claims: 1) There is more than one ERV, 2) Penon is not an expert, 3) JR is sure IH also thinks that Penon is no expert.

        Of these, the only thing I can check is Penon’s CV, which is clearly nonzero so I have trouble believing (2).

        We really need to hear IH’s version of the story to judge further. Thus far they have only made very short statement and filed a commercially worthless(*) patent application which documents the test setup and claims a COP of 11.

        (*)Excluding possible commercial value to AR, in court.

        • Penons credentials are excellent according the the CV. He has worked with WORLD CLASS certification agencies like Bureau Veritas and Det Norske Veritas. And Jed is going on about him having some american ceritication. It’s all very suspicious.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            At least, it is not clear to me how an engineer with Penon’s qualification and experience could overestimate a COP by the factor 10.

          • DrD

            I trust it wasn’t an “estimate!!

          • Ged

            I feel really bad for Penon. His qualifications are incredibly top notch, yet there is this smear campaign going on against him as part of efforts to undermine Rossi, but all he’s done is measure devices. Seriously, that poor guy is getting terribly collaterally damaged.

            And people wonder why many scientists and engineers stay away from helping others in this subject matter!

  • artefact

    On JONP:

    “Patrick Ellul April 13, 2016 at 7:13 AM
    Dear Andrea,
    Jed Rothwell alleges that there is a second ERV of the 1 year 1MW plat test and that his report draws an opposite conclusion to the the one from the ERV that you described.
    Does this second ERV exist?
    Best regards, Patrick

    Andrea Rossi April 13, 2016 at 7:52 AM
    Patrick Ellul:
    Jed Rothwell is an intelligent person and has a remarkable sense of humor. Obviously he is joking.
    The only ERV has been the one accepted by contract from both the counterparts with a signed agreement.
    It is true that IH had their men constantly in the plant all the 352 days of the tests, and never said anything was wrong. As well as it is true that Tom Darden, JT Vaughn and their investors from Woodford and from China have been in the plant many times, have talked with the director of JM in his office of the factory, have made their investors talk with the director of JM, who said good things giving good references, based on which Woodford has given to Tom Darden 50-60 millions of dollars and the Chinese started with him a 200 million concern in China.
    Tom Darden , IT Vaughn also in this case danced like opera ballet etoiles around their investors, the director of JM, myself chanting ” Stellar, stellar”. No remarks of any sort have been communicated from IH, Cherokee Fund or Woodfors, let alone the Chinese, about the plant, the ERV, the Customer. Until our bill loomed. Witnesses available. In due time and place.
    Warm Regards, A.R.”

    • Jerry Soloman

      FACTS: Woodford has given to Tom Darden 50-60 millions of dollars and the Chinese started with Darden a 200 million concern in China.- IT’s no wonder Darden wants to get out of the Rossi contract/commitment with $$ billions to be made why “share” with the inventor – Scientist. – Excuse me, but Darden is no genius.

      • Anon2012_2014

        Re: “FACTS: [Woodford/Chinese] given to Darden millions … no wonder Darden … $$billions ”

        I think it is @Jerry Soloman’s speculation beyond the Woodford $50 mm investment which is public.

        1) Whatever the Chinese did, may or may not have included an investment in IH. It looked to me at the time that IH started a research facility in China, and that the Chinese contributed the use of a new industrial park (i.e. office buildings and factory space) that cost $200 million. If you can show me somewhere that IH took in $200 mm from China, I would appreciate it. All we know is that IH took in at total of $11.7 mm in 2013 and $50 mm from Woodford, and that a good deal of it has already been spent. It appears to me that IH has not made any money yet on this, as the investment is being spent down.

        2) “IT’s no wonder Darden wants to get out of the Rossi contract/commitment with $$ billions to be made why “share” with the inventor.” This is entirely speculation and not a fact. Darden might think there is NOTHING to be made from Rossi’s IP. Darden might have wanted to force Rossi to give him a working E-Cat that he can sell for the $100 mm licensing fee. The only “fact” that is not speculation was that in Darden’s mind, it was not worth $89 mm to pay on demand the money. We don’t know why.

        • Jerry Soloman

          Anon2012_2014 – you said: Darden might think there is NOTHING to be made from Rossi’s IP. .. Thank You for that )

    • artefact
      • Frank Acland

        Thanks very much — added above now.

      • wpj

        He seems to be as vitriolic about the ERV as GW and Freeenergyscams are about Rossi.

        Surely the only important thing is how much electricity was consumed and if it was enough to power the process at the factory (assuming there was one, no actors, etc etc).

        • As I wrote in my analysis ( http://www.sifferkoll.se/sifferkoll/the-rossi-lenr-saga-what-to-expect-from-the-apcoworldwide-pr-machine/ ), it is now essential for IH to attack Penon with ad-hominem arguments (ie. lack of credentials etc. not the actual report) to get them out of the legal mess. He has to be sacrificed. Jed is joining forces with Ahern, Cole and Beene executing, knowingly or not, what I would consider the Apco strategy of choice. Remember this is what these Apco people do for a living.

          • I disagree… there is many personal and shared opinion on that affair.

            Jed have a bad opinion on penon because he is not a HVAC US certified engineer.
            I’ve look at his CV, it looks good, and in EU engineer is MsC level, often Ivy league grade… anyway an expert in ISO9000 nuclear quality control may not be the best for spotting the trick of an inventor exaggerating performance and removing the test rig installed by IH to install the usual ambiguous Rossi-style setup.
            Let us see the report and IH critics. (I’ve heard some report by scientists or biz guys and I’m afraid).

            Brian Ahern is a lone guy in his long-time radical anti-rossi claims, but recent informations that circulate show that it is worse than what many imagined, and most were deeply dubious.

            Consensus is that there is something LENR, and that Rossi refuse to trust anybody, refuse to make a convincing test, and this is supported especially from people who met him of watched test or proposed test.
            Debate is if he have nothing, much less , or just want to maintain ambiguity.
            Consensus is that Darden is a “good boy”, especially from people who met him or work with him.
            Question is whether IH just have problem to replicate, or if the 1MW test is moreover flawed, failed, failed on reliability, or dubious.

            forget the conspiracy, this is just that some people share informations, feelings, impressions, anecdotes.

            Like many, my heart bleed from what I’ve learned, but there is nothing definitive.

            as a European citizen I don’t care whether it is Rossi or Darden who is the good boy, I just want LENR to be accepted, and to develop in EU, in Indonesia, in Africa.

            I just want that bath blood to stop.
            today I see many skeptic mainstream sources reporting the ridicule of this battle, and it is damaging the domain, and may block some funding.
            IT HAS TO STOP.

          • Pekka Janhunen

            Jed had the idea that a HVAC engineer would be good to do the job some years ago. The idea is not bad, but nowadays Jed seems to think that only an HVAC engineer is able to measure those plants, which is just silly. Of course any honest person with some technical skill can recognise a large COP such as 50.

          • I respect you position Alain. I also want the blood bath to stop. However, my intuition though says fight for the little guy. And in this game it is Rossi. There is no conspiracy, but there is damage control and implementation plans, that could go higher than IH. Apco being a hint. They have worked for NGOs and BigCorps for ages doing exactly this and I do not see them doing anything different here. These people do not want an energy revolution if it can be avoided. They want to be robust on the expense of the people and the antifragile. Read Taleb again. This is the perfect example.

          • Today I have a smile on my face
            Sure, there is no conspiracy against LENR.

            This affair is not so important, and maybe the end of E-cat story is a good news.
            It will allow serious guys to work.
            😉
            I wish so.

          • Not sure I agree on that. Or understand. The “serious guys” can work regardless of E-Cat in my opinion. I see no conflict there. And I do not believe in conspiracy, but only damage control (react) and executing some kind of strategy (proact) which is a little bit unclear as it need to suit both IH and Apco. And for Rossi this affair is important I believe. None of the people I have been in contact with that have met him personally has the view which is communicated by commentators and now indirectly by IH. In the Macy/Infinite energy interview also Darden expressed himself very positively about Rossi. He might be hard to work with and somewhat paranoid, but not a fraudster.

        • Barbierir

          He’s mostly reporting what he info he got from IH. His low opinion of Penon was already expressed in the past

      • Pekka Janhunen

        I was used to trust on what Jed says, but recently his remarks have been sometimes strange so I have a hard time following him. In this post he makes three strong claims: 1) There is more than one ERV, 2) Penon is not an expert, 3) JR is sure IH also thinks that Penon is no expert.

        Of these, the only thing I can check is Penon’s CV, which is clearly nonzero so I have trouble believing (2).

        We really need to hear IH’s version of the story to judge further. Thus far they have only made very short statement and filed a commercially worthless(*) patent application which documents the test setup and claims a COP of 11.

        (*)Excluding possible commercial value to AR, in court.

        • Penons credentials are excellent according the the CV. He has worked with WORLD CLASS certification agencies like Bureau Veritas and Det Norske Veritas. And Jed is going on about him having some american ceritication. It’s all very suspicious.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            At least, it is not clear to me how an engineer with Penon’s qualification and experience could overestimate a COP by the factor 10.

          • DrD

            I trust it wasn’t an “estimate!!

          • Ged

            I feel really bad for Penon. His qualifications are incredibly top notch, yet there is this smear campaign going on against him as part of efforts to undermine Rossi, but all he’s done is measure devices. Seriously, that poor guy is getting terribly collaterally damaged.

            And people wonder why many scientists and engineers stay away from helping others in this subject matter!

  • kenko1

    I think you’re right. 4 ‘packs of 10 ecat cores. One set of electronics/controllers for each pack of 10. The newer ‘Quarks’ may be even fewer per pack, or smaller overall depending on the usage(heat-electricity-light or a combination.)

  • Anon2012_2014

    “the t to just view a single document”

    What are you talking about, Pacer? I find it surprising that we can view the documents for only 10 cents per page without any special credentials.

  • Anon2012_2014

    “Sifferkoll that is very much a APCO-like statement. ”

    Rip, your statement is very much a troll accusatory statement (ad hominem) in that any statement that does not agree with your view of the subject matter is labelled a troll.

    I don’t think APCO has anything to do with anything here — this is just conspiracy speculation.

  • Jarea

    Witnesses included… All with APCO on this. witnesses can be bought or if you have something on a tape they can always said they were forced to say something. Rossi please be prepared for the specialists on the masquerade game.

  • Jarea

    Witnesses included…. And with APCO on this. witnesses can be bought or if you have something on a tape they can always said they were forced to say something. Rossi please be prepared for the specialists on the masquerade game. You must prepare your defense well.

  • LENR ma non troppo

    What was the milestone of the agreement? Was it about having an average COP above a certain agreed number or was it about having that COP for a certain period (number of days)? One can always state the agreement has been breached because the plant’s output was below the agreed one several times (well, there were a lot of problems at the begining, as we know).

  • LENR ma non troppo

    What was the milestone of the agreement? Was it about having an average COP above a certain agreed number or was it about having that COP for a certain period (number of days)? One can always state the agreement has been breached because the plant’s output was below the agreed one several times (well, there were a lot of problems at the begining, as we know).

  • Karl Venter

    PR/Media company 2nd biggest privately owned in America
    Used for spin doctoring eg Want to cheat a customer and get publicity out there that it was his fault ( only an example not intended to implicate anybody or any specific example)

  • nammfats

    This has got to be an impossible situation for both parties. A first-of-it’s-kind invention; a true world changer. The stress levels must be very difficult to handle. I hope that this legal issue is just a misunderstanding and nothing nefarious. For the sake of humanity, I hope that both sides can put their prides away and come to an agreement that benefits all. That IS what everyone wants right?

    • kdk

      “For the sake of humanity, I hope that both sides can put their prides away and come to an agreement that benefits all. That IS what everyone wants right?”

      Honestly, no, it isn’t what everyone wants. There have been many other opportunities for the parties probably involved to have this or similar things a long time ago.

  • Ged

    So, Jed did not mean there was another ERV, just that IH rumors told to him were saying that IH was going to dispute the ERV based on their own measurements. Just minor telephone game between Jed’s statements and the poster’s question to Rossi. [Edit: Looking closer, Jed did directly say there was another ERV, and then had to backtrack on his statements, since an IH observer is not an independent ERV. That doesn’t look so good. So not the question poster’s misunderstanding.]

    Well, if Jed is getting reliable info, then we’ll have to see what data IH produces. But note, this is all rumor, and we keep getting these odd rumors supposedly from people within IH through channels that IH didn’t typically communicate with previously (Jed, the maybe Brian Ahern though the IP trace suggests that post was not him) while ignoring channels IH did previously communicate with (like Frank and other mainstay LENR news sites). Since IH did say not to listen to anything said to be from them unless they themselves release it, I think it’s just a matter of waiting. We can’t do much with unsubstantiated rumor, versus claims; but it’ll be interesting if this is a sneak peak of what IH is prepping.

    • DrD

      It reads as if he WAS implying a second ERV but on scrutiny, it just didn’t stand up.
      Seems a very selective unsubstantiated set of claims
      https://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg109269.html

      • Ged

        Well, that is true. I don’t know why he backtracked so fast. I figured he didn’t mean to say what he did, but looking at it again, I have to agree with you that he was trying to float that claim and then it sunk. He hasn’t struck me as a person to do that.

        Unless he’s being fed misinformation and his supposed source backtracked on him, leaving him holding the bag. This is all getting weird, considering the people involved.

        • SG

          Seems like something happened along those lines. I think it is quite clear that IH is going to dispute the ERV and/or the ERV’s findings.

          • Ged

            They really have to. If they don’t, then they’ll basically lose the case right out of the gate. Even if IH is blowing hot air, they would still want to dispute it to try to slow things down and tie the process up. I would be honestly surprised if they don’t.

        • DrD

          One of the remarks in that post:
          “Ask him why he will not release the Penon report. He will give some sort of bullshit answer I expect. The real reason is because the report makes him look like a fool.”
          Edit, where’s this coming from?

          • Ged

            Then there’s no need for “another ERV” that disputes the Penon report ;). Talking in circles–which one is it? Is the Penon report not what Rossi claims, or is the Penon report what he claims and going to be disputed?

            And if the Penon report is not what Rossi claims, why hasn’t -IH- released it?

            I certainly can believe that forensics is being done on the report to hold up its release, particularly since it’s the centerpiece of this entire legal dispute. But that would only be needed if it was good for Rossi.

            Edit: Regarding your edit, that is a Very good question… Particularly since this FUD is contradictory to itself, and from people usually more respectable than this. What is all this…

        • A thread on the sifferkoll blog warned of astroturfing and similar tricks by Apco Worldwide – http://www.sifferkoll.se/sifferkoll/the-rossi-lenr-saga-what-to-expect-from-the-apcoworldwide-pr-machine/

          Perhaps they are briefing high profile individuals against Rossi, or possibly even impersonating them. Someone should ask Rothwell whether the post is actually his, and if so what prompted it.

          • Ged

            I agree, and that’s a good idea.

            Sifferkoll’s IP trace on the “Brian Ahern” post pegged it in the DC suburbs, while Dr. Ahern is in the Boston area. Maybe he was traveling, or has moved since his two decades of work at the Airforce lab up in Boston (that’s the last point I could trace his activities to), but it does look like impersonation at the current glance. We’ll see, I guess, if he comes to verify, and same with Jed.

            But then where are they getting this supposed information, and what makes them think they can trust it? Jed certainly couldn’t trust his completely, it turns out.

          • Wang, Ahern and Rothwell all seem to be reacting to pretty much the same misinformation. There are probably others, and more to come.

            I don’t participate at Vortex and don’t even know if it’s an open forum, or I’d ask Rothwell myself. Perhaps someone who has contact with him could do the honours.

          • DrD

            I suppose, not having released the report, the trolls can’t comment on it so theyre a bit restricted in what they can attack.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    This is starting to smell like what some of us feared all along, IH is the agent of big money interests with the goal of destroying and/or delaying the implementation of LENR.

    • LarryJ

      I think the important thing right now is market share. IH will produce reactors as fast as they can and they will copy the quarkx as fast as they can copy it. We are talking about a trillion dollar market here. The court battle will run for many years but he who controls the market is in the drivers seat. We are going to see IH as the main competitor to Leonardo. Nobody is going to wait for the court case to be resolved. That would be crazy. Grab market share now and argue about IP later.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    This is starting to smell like what some of us feared all along, IH is the agent of big money interests with the goal of destroying and/or delaying the implementation of LENR.

    • LarryJ

      I think the important thing right now is market share. IH will produce reactors as fast as they can and they will copy the quarkx as fast as they can copy it. We are talking about a trillion dollar market here. The court battle will run for many years but he who controls the market is in the drivers seat. We are going to see IH as the main competitor to Leonardo. Nobody is going to wait for the court case to be resolved. That would be crazy. Grab market share now and argue about IP later.

      • Edac

        I suspect that IH only have knowledge of how to build the E-Cat and may be Hot-Cat, but not QuarkX. QuarkX was developed are the agreement between Rossi and IH was signed.

    • James Andrew Rovnak

      Read recent book by Jane Mayer “Dark Money” as I asked Rossi to on his blog several days back! a real eye opener of the Oil Oligarchy he is up against! In particular just maybe the Koch brothers money, no less!

    • clovis ray

      i agree, we need to keep looking, at that scenario, and we need to stand tall this is just the beginning, of the onslaught of lies and innuendo,

  • This is a scenario I’m contemplating: The ERV report shows COP~50. No doubt about. But it is a long report with many details about the meassurements. And many details, gives many ways to insert doubt. Look at Lugano. The Cryptodenialists spent huge amount time thinking up fraud and incompetence scenarios, and since they did not have to prove, only state them, this is very easy. To disprove them is of course impossible. This is the game they want to play now. IH has the report as well.

    Maybe they fed some select parts of it to the Jeds, Beenes, Goats, Clarkes and Coles of the net so that they can elaborate these scenarios for them …

    What they want now is probably Rossi to release the report. They actually try to game/provoke him to do it, so that they can then flood the place with discussions about tiny details and fraud scenarios (incl especially Penon). They of course can not release the report themselves, since it would be to acknowledge it.

    • SG

      This is quite likely. My guess is that Mr. Rossi’s team would want to release the report as a legal addendum in the pending suit. This would be the most credible way of getting the report onto the public record. They might even submit it together with an affidavit from one or more individuals attesting to its authenticity. At least, that is what I would do, if I were them.

      • Ged

        That would explain the delay due to forensics exactly. I hope Rossi is going that route, for his sake.

        • peacelovewoodstock

          The basis of Rothwell’s assertion of a second ERV seems to be:

          “I recall another ERV is mentioned in the lawsuit papers. I don’t recall where.

          – Jed”

          https://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg109279.html

          Well this should be easy to verify .. I read the lawsuit papers but don’t recall another ERV but will read them again for sure!

          • wpj

            There isn’t one. There were 2 IH people Fulvio Fabiani (who works on the control systems and was, presumably, there to oversee those) and Barry West, who we know nothing about.

          • adriano

            Barry West… such a fake fictional name… xD

          • Brokeeper

            The only other is original the 24 hour test by the same ERV to validate the unit works.

        • Winebuff67

          I think we’re all looking past the underlying part of this is if they truly thought it was fraud why buy up every patent? file patents illegally F9, go way out of their way to tie up all the IP. I think this is about getting g the IP and patents as cheap as possible and then dragging this through court to break Rossi financially then get a favorable out of court agreement.

          • Buck

            WineBuff,

            your scenario that simply breaks down under its own weight if Rossi is able to ramp up operations & sales in his own territory.

            And as a reminder, presuming JM Chemical Products truly enjoyed the results of a COP = +50, then the customer is a built-in source of a next customer in Europe. And, this opens the door to HydroFusion’s markets.

        • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

          Our coronaries are being tested… F9…

      • They’ll probably also want to prepare a simplified but well supported ‘executive summary’ for the edification of the judge and jury. That may also be released via JoNP for the wider ‘jury’ at some time.

  • This is a scenario I’m contemplating: The ERV report shows COP~50. No doubt about. But it is a long report with many details about the meassurements. And many details, gives many ways to insert doubt. Look at Lugano. The Cryptodenialists spent huge amount time thinking up fraud and incompetence scenarios, and since they did not have to prove, only state them, this is very easy. To disprove them is of course impossible. This is the game they want to play now. IH has the report as well.

    Maybe they fed some select parts of it to the Jeds, Beenes, Goats, Clarkes and Coles of the net so that they can elaborate these scenarios for them …

    What they want now is probably Rossi to release the report. They actually try to game/provoke him to do it, so that they can then flood the place with discussions about tiny details and fraud scenarios (incl especially Penon). They of course can not release the report themselves, since it would be to acknowledge it.

    • SG

      This is quite likely. My guess is that Mr. Rossi’s team would want to release the report as a legal addendum in the pending suit. This would be the most credible way of getting the report onto the public record. They might even submit it together with an affidavit from one or more individuals attesting to its authenticity. At least, that is what I would do, if I were them.

      • Ged

        That would explain the delay due to forensics exactly. I hope Rossi is going that route, for his sake.

        • Winebuff67

          I think we’re all looking past the underlying part of this is if they truly thought it was fraud why buy up every patent? file patents illegally F9, go way out of their way to tie up all the IP. I think this is about getting g the IP and patents as cheap as possible and then dragging this through court to break Rossi financially then get a favorable out of court agreement.

          • Buck

            WineBuff,

            your scenario simply breaks down under its own weight if Rossi is able to ramp up operations & sales in his own territory.

            And as a reminder, presuming JM Chemical Products truly enjoyed the results of a COP = +50, then the customer is a built-in source of a next customer in Europe. And, this opens the door to HydroFusion’s markets.

        • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

          Our coronaries are being tested… F9…

      • They’ll probably also want to prepare a simplified but well supported ‘executive summary’ for the edification of the judge and jury. That may also be released via JoNP for the wider ‘jury’ at some time.

    • $6446788

      What about the electricity bill of the customer? Do we know how happy or unhappy the customer is with his electricity bill?

  • LarryJ

    The line up of experts that the huckster Rossi has fooled has become embarassingly long.

    • Bruce__H

      Scientists and engineers are used to putting controls etc on experiments because nature can sometimes be difficult to deal with. They are not, however, used to detecting conscious chicanery. A stage magician would be a better person to detect such things.

  • Barbierir

    The problem with what Jed got to know from IH is that it doesn’t square with the info Mats has about the customer happy for the lower bill. Unless behind incompetence there was also deliberate fraud by Rossi. But the deliberate fraud scenario doesn’t square with many other known facts. One thing is sure, either IH or Rossi is lying.

    • LuFong

      The customer was charged $1000/day for the heat. Whether the 1MW plant worked or not they will be happy.

      The customer will surely testify here. It’s important that they can show that they indeed got 1MW steam which would vouch for the flow and temperature readings. They would have to show a real production capacity requiring 1MW of steam. If they cannot do this then I believe then it will look very bad for Rossi no matter what the Penon ERV report says.

      • Ged

        Well, they wouldn’t be happy if it didn’t work, as then they wouldn’t be getting their money’s worth of steam ;).

        At any rate, that isn’t even the biggest problem with all this from Jed’s threads, but rather the self-contradictory statements.

        • LuFong

          I don’t see the contradiction.

          • Ged

            How can one claim the report would make Rossi look like a fool (thus negative to Rossi), and then also claim IH disagrees with the report (for “good reason”) in a negative sense to Rossi. One or the other, can’t have it both ways, unless one is saying IH is defending Rossi from Penon.

          • LuFong

            The conclusion of the report could support Rossi but the methodology and techniques could be so inept that the report would effectively be meaningless.

            When the Lugano Report came out it supported Rossi’s claim of significant excess heat. Some people brought up what I felt were credible criticisms of how the measurements were made. Rossi went ballistic in his response unfairly attacking those that raised the issue. I thought Rossi looked like a fool caught red handed there even though I was not able to technically evaluate the issue.

            We’ll have to see what criticisms IH levies against the test but I’m betting it has to do with measuring the flow of the steam.

      • Bob

        The problem with this whole scenario is that little tidbits are taken and then full scale “truths” are extracted somehow.
        .
        Not to be critical of any particular posts or lines of thinking but keep in mind:
        .
        The customer “plant” was setup by Rossi for testing the eCat. We have no knowledge that there was any production. The customer still has not confirmed their identity. All we have is Rossi says. It would be important for them to testify, but we do not have any real data to establish there was any production at all.
        .
        The eCat does not have any safety certification that we can confirm. SGS cert certainly does not do it.
        .
        We do not even know what the Penon report states. So it is not valid for me to state that it is junk. It could be excellent. It could be garbage. I have no unbiased information on that at all. But some take Rossi’s word as gospel while others automatically state anything he says is a lie. Neither is the case in reality, we simply do not know.
        .
        I wish we could focus our conversations more on the possible functioning, how to replicate, how to better understand LENR here than “Rossi is always the victim” and everybody that deals with him turns into crooks and thieves.
        .
        I guess discussion on the lawsuit are valid, but we should always keep in mind there are ALWAYS two sides to the story. This is a divorce… and divorces always state that the other party cheated….even under oath. (figure of speech of course)

        • LuFong

          I agree generally with just about everything you’ve said, but I see very little relevance of this to my post.

          Rossi has repeatedly said what matters is whether the customer makes money with his device, and that this test is a verification of that. I’m saying also that this is an important data point and surly we will see the customer in court and the customer’s testimony will be important.

          • Sylvie Cemoi

            Any news from Defkalion?

          • Haha. Point taken. Always plenty of new smoke but so far we can never find the new fire.

            We persist, anyway.

          • Bruce__H

            Rossi has been saying this for years and years. He’s made millions of dollars saying this.

    • Ophelia Rump

      You can’t fake a year of 1MW energy to a factory.

      Which brings up a very important point. Is the factory still being powered by the reactors?
      If it is, who is running the reactors? The proof is in the accounting. If Rossi can produce the books he can prove his device in court, and that may be the entire purpose of this theater of the absurd.

      • is it a factory?

        • wpj

          Its original name was J M Chemical Products Inc which became, for the test, J M Products Inc. Seems that it was a means of masking its true owners (UK based apparently). They say that the rig was a scaled down version of what was being used in the UK and, based on that, they knew that it needed 1MW for it to work. Maybe they have found a new super method to get it to work with one fiftieth of the energy.

          The analysis of power consumption will be complicated as the water will return to the plant at a certain temperature and then be reheated, so it is not like a calorimetry experiment and will require monitoring of temperatures at many parts of the system.

      • Jouni Tuomela

        Perhaps a brewery?
        Sanitising bottles?

      • wpj

        Post 40 of the 1 year thread says that the reactor was recharged and Frank postulated that it was still in operation there.

  • Barbierir

    The problem with what Jed got to know from IH is that it doesn’t square with the info Mats has about the customer happy for the lower bill. Unless behind incompetence there was also deliberate fraud by Rossi. But the deliberate fraud scenario doesn’t square with many other known facts. One thing is sure, either IH or Rossi is lying.

    • Ophelia Rump

      You can’t fake a year of 1MW energy to a factory.

      Which brings up a very important point. Is the factory still being powered by the reactors?
      If it is, who is running the reactors? The proof is in the accounting. If Rossi can produce the books he can prove his device in court, and that may be the entire purpose of this theater of the absurd.

      • is it a factory?

        • wpj

          Its original name was J M Chemical Products Inc which became, for the test, J M Products Inc. Seems that it was a means of masking its true owners (UK based apparently). They say that the rig was a scaled down version of what was being used in the UK and, based on that, they knew that it needed 1MW for it to work. Maybe they have found a new super method to get it to work with one fiftieth of the energy.

          The analysis of power consumption will be complicated as the water will return to the plant at a certain temperature and then be reheated, so it is not like a calorimetry experiment and will require monitoring of temperatures at many parts of the system.

      • Jouni Tuomela

        Perhaps a brewery?
        Sanitising bottles?

      • wpj

        Post 40 of the 1 year thread says that the reactor was recharged and Frank postulated that it was still in operation there.

  • peacelovewoodstock

    The basis of Rothwell’s assertion of a second ERV seems to be:

    “I recall another ERV is mentioned in the lawsuit papers. I don’t recall where.

    – Jed”

    https://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg109279.html

    Well this should be easy to verify .. I read the lawsuit papers but don’t recall another ERV but will read them again for sure!

    • wpj

      There isn’t one. There were 2 IH people Fulvio Fabiani (who works on the control systems and was, presumably, there to oversee those) and Barry West, who we know nothing about.

      • adriano

        Barry West… such a fake fictional name… xD

    • Brokeeper

      The only other is the original 24 hour test by the same ERV to validate the unit works.

  • kdk

    “For the sake of humanity, I hope that both sides can put their prides away and come to an agreement that benefits all. That IS what everyone wants right?”

    Honestly, no, it isn’t what everyone wants.

  • Frank Acland
    • Very interesting indeed. I particularly like the comment by Mike H.: “This is my favorite stop for all my low energy nuclear reaction needs. Does fusion leave you cold? Stop in and get a warm glow. This place puts a 21st century twist on Miami Heat! When you stop in, be sure to ask for Andrea.”

    • Ged

      Looks like someone threw up a mock listing, with picture and mock review to boot. How easy is that to do with the Yellow Pages?

      • Frank Acland

        I don’t think it’s a mock listing, but the site allows you to add pictures and reviews for businesses listed.

        • Barbierir

          Has there been any comment by Woodford?

          • psi2u2

            None that I’ve seen.

          • none.
            IH is not only Rossi.
            It is partnership with Brillouin, Lenuco and few other researchers.

            I think they should divorce with Rossi.
            Even if he have Ecat-X, it will be better to develop an HHT improved by lenuco and others, than expect a lone ranger to improve alone in his container.

          • Brent Buckner

            Sifferkol might take offence in light of his comments about APCO on March 18:
            http://www.sifferkoll.se/sifferkoll/something-really-bothers-me-about-the-apcoworldwide-lenr-connection/

          • The gist of the falling out could wind up just being a culture clash between financial world suits and a maverick scattershot inventor.

            Strange behavior as perceived by both sides, leading to distrust, leading to defensive actions, leading to a lawsuit. Tragic if true.

          • Vc culture accept much worse psychologies, but there is one rule .
            if you say you share your IP, you have to share your IP, and it have to be the one that work.

            anyway I think this is fully logical.
            Rossi cannot trust anybody and gives his IP.
            IH cannot accept to fund 89Mn$ without anything in hand, after having paid 10Mn for nothing.

            until now, either Rossi have proven he fooled physicists and engineers (making them believe it worked, or making others believe it was ambiguous), or he have proven he owns a fantastic technology.

            as far as I can read in IH answers, he did not prove he have transmitted it to IH.

          • Jarea

            Alain please dont give up on Rossi, you seems you are a little bit aligned with IH now.
            What does it make you think that they will do a good LENR roadmap with Brillouin or Lenuco? Rossi wants to release products this year, they want to discredit him to stop/delay LENR from being fast adopted. Two reasons, first they need time to improve their IPs with Rossi discovery and second the big powers that give them money need a slow roadmap so that they can divest from oil peacefully

          • my guess is that simply IH want the IP that works, point.
            the test is not important, as long as they can make it work themselves.
            they cannot, all the 1billion year 1GW test cannot have any importance if they don’t have the real IP.

          • billH

            Lenuco LLC has filed 3 Form Ds since 2008. Of these filings, 2 have been for unique offerings.

            Through these filings, they have raised $115,000, and reported $0 remaining.

            They have not paid finder’s fees or sales commissions in connection with these offerings.

            They have not used any of the proceeds from its offerings to pay officers or directors.

            The types of securities they have issued are Equity and other securities.

            They have relied on the following exemptions in past filings Rule 506(b).

            This is clearly another shell company with no real asset, and no obvious link to IH, they only have one small investor and no capital

            http://brillouinenergy.com/
            Nice slick website, no similarity to AR’s plant or method, no obvious link to IH.

            Any more companies we can exclude?

          • Bob Tivnan

            IH has been so reluctant to make public comments about the lawsuit, and now they talk to Jed, one of the most connected people in the LENR community? This doesn’t fit IH’s profile. Either IH has made an abrupt change of strategy in their public relations, or Jed is being used to spread disinformation in an attempt to discredit Rossi. Am I missing something?

          • SG

            It is a way to get out their message in a plausibly deniable manner. It would be hearsay and so not admissible in court. But they picked someone with good street cred among the LENR community and started feeding him. Brilliant, though underhanded. IH will not go down without a big fight.

          • Bob Tivnan

            We may be seeing the APCO machine at work here.

          • MasterBlaster7

            yep

          • Omega Z

            Industrial heat obtained several of Dr. George Miley’s (Lenuco LLC Founder) patents. Using some info provided by AlainCO, I personally confirmed this.

            Industrial heat provided some funding to Mitchell Swartz of Jet Energy concerning the NANOR.

            Industrial heat has financial dealings with Brillouin Energy Corp.(BEC) and Brillouin’s HHT reactor has characteristics similar to the E-cat.

            Industrial Heat/Tom Darden has spoken of having invested in multiple LENR experimenters. None of this is in Question.

            The uncertainty is just how involved Industrial heat is in these LENR entities and What is their intention. A monopoly of sorts or to delay LENR we don’t know.

  • Frank Acland
    • Very interesting indeed. I particularly like the ‘review’ by Mike H.: “This is my favorite stop for all my low energy nuclear reaction needs. Does fusion leave you cold? Stop in and get a warm glow. This place puts a 21st century twist on Miami Heat! When you stop in, be sure to ask for Andrea.”

      • Ged

        Gotta give them a hand for a sense of humor!

        • I wonder how one could go about finding out who posted this ‘ad’? I think you would need an account, and (presumably) the ad details would have to match the account details?

          • Andreas Moraitis

            The account of the person who posted the photo was created in April 2016. That looks indeed somewhat suspicious.

          • Perhaps someone here would like to own up?

        • Edac

          Anyone can post a picture or review on YellowPages if you register. I can be 99.99% sure he is not associated the J and C Chemical Products.

        • Jarea
          • I believe that’s just a coincidence. Some googling reveals Rossini Marble Supply as a real company (unless they took pains to make it look like a real company online).

          • Alex Fenrick

            Still probably a coincidence but interesting is the fact that the website for rossinimarble.com is not functioning…the phone is disconnected….and every google hit is for one of those autolister sites. Its like there is no real info for this company….kinda weird but I can’t imagine why he would need to make a fake company…still weird.

          • Alex Fenrick

            Still probably a coincidence but interesting is the fact that the website for rossinimarble.com is not functioning…the phone is disconnected….and every google hit is for one of those autolister sites. Its like there is no real info for this company….kinda weird but I can’t imagine why he would need to make a fake company…still weird.

    • Ged

      Looks like someone threw up a mock listing, with picture and mock review to boot. How easy is that to do with the Yellow Pages?

      • Frank Acland

        I don’t think it’s a mock listing, but the site allows you to add pictures and reviews for businesses listed.

  • TVulgaris

    There’s not the slightest chance a judge will require an independent test, it has nothing to do with the contract. Rossi may offer one as evidence (that could either be a nightmare scenario, or exactly what this is pointed towards.

  • So you agree to one person writing a report, then secretly you write a different report so that you can refute the person you agreed to have write the report. That’s corrupt.

    • Then you (or your agents) put it about to some ‘thought leaders’ that this is the real deal – some very dirty tactics seem to be emerging.

    • Bruce__H

      That’s not corrupt.

      • Jarea

        That is playing dirty. IH signed a contract with one ERV that was agreed by the two interested sides.
        Other reports can include views that are biased since are prepared without agreement of independence.

        • Mark Underwood

          Let’s say: Industrial Heat agrees to have Penon as the ERV guy because he has a history with eCat and is known to be able to keep things under wraps. But secretly IH is not entirely confident that Penon is getting it right, so they have at least one of their own people checking on things, specifically Penon’s methods of quantifying energy consumption. This is entirely OK, because Rossi agreed to have IH people check the place. Heck IH people helped build the place.

          So the question becomes, did Penon get it right, or did IH people (namely Barry White?), who quietly critiqued the process and presumably saw a fatal flaw, get it right? I hope the former. I believe the former. I find it easier to believe that IH’s objection to the ERV is spurious, than the ERV is fatally flawed. That is because I find it hard to believe that a smart guy like Penon could get it wrong for so long, or especially that that Rossi himself could have fooled himself for years. He’s had too much experience and seen too many things. He surely knows how to distinguish mundane, expected, no-show outcomes from ‘wow’ results like very prolonged self sustain modes.

          We’ll see in due time.

        • Bruce__H

          I don’t think it is even playing dirty. It might be actionable if IH initially agreed to go by the original EVR report but that is for a court to decide.

    • Dave

      Maybe IH suspects Rossi was able to fake the results of the test? It doesn’t matter if you trust the person you agreed to write the report if that’s the case.

    • Dave

      Maybe IH suspects Rossi was able to fake the results of the test? It doesn’t matter if you trust the person you agreed to write the report if that’s the case.

  • Barbierir

    Has there been any comment by Woodford?

    • psi2u2

      None that I’ve seen.

      • none.
        IH is not only Rossi.
        It is partnership with Brillouin, Lenuco and few other researchers.

        I think they should divorce with Rossi.
        Even if he have Ecat-X, it will be better to develop an HHT improved by lenuco and others, than expect a lone ranger to improve alone in his container.

        • The gist of the falling out could wind up just being a culture clash between financial world suits and a maverick scattershot inventor.

          Strange behavior as perceived by both sides, leading to distrust, leading to defensive actions, leading to a lawsuit. Tragic if true.

          • Vc culture accept much worse psychologies, but there is one rule .
            if you say you share your IP, you have to share your IP, and it have to be the one that work.

            anyway I think this is fully logical.
            Rossi cannot trust anybody and gives his IP.
            IH cannot accept to fund 89Mn$ without anything in hand, after having paid 10Mn for nothing.

            until now, either Rossi have proven he fooled physicists and engineers (making them believe it worked, or making others believe it was ambiguous), or he have proven he owns a fantastic technology.

            as far as I can read in IH answers, he did not prove he have transmitted it to IH.

        • Jarea

          Alain please dont give up on Rossi, you seems you are a little bit aligned with IH now.
          What does it make you think that they will do a good LENR roadmap with Brillouin or Lenuco? Rossi wants to release products this year, they want to discredit him to stop/delay LENR from being fast adopted. Two reasons, first they need time to improve their IPs with Rossi discovery and second the big powers that give them money need a slow roadmap so that they can divest from oil peacefully

          • my guess is that simply IH want the IP that works, point.
            the test is not important, as long as they can make it work themselves.
            they cannot, all the 1billion year 1GW test cannot have any importance if they don’t have the real IP.

        • billH

          Lenuco LLC has filed 3 Form Ds since 2008. Of these filings, 2 have been for unique offerings.

          Through these filings, they have raised $115,000, and reported $0 remaining.

          They have not paid finder’s fees or sales commissions in connection with these offerings.

          They have not used any of the proceeds from its offerings to pay officers or directors.

          The types of securities they have issued are Equity and other securities.

          They have relied on the following exemptions in past filings Rule 506(b).

          This is clearly another shell company with no real asset, and no obvious link to IH, they only have one small investor and no capital

          http://brillouinenergy.com/
          Nice slick website, no similarity to AR’s plant or method, no obvious link to IH.

          Any more companies we can exclude?

          • Omega Z

            Industrial heat obtained several of Dr. George Miley’s (Lenuco LLC Founder) patents. Using some info provided by AlainCO, I personally confirmed this.

            Industrial heat provided some funding to Mitchell Swartz of Jet Energy concerning the NANOR.

            Industrial heat has financial dealings with Brillouin Energy Corp.(BEC) and Brillouin’s HHT reactor has characteristics similar to the E-cat.

            Industrial Heat/Tom Darden has spoken of having invested in multiple LENR experimenters. None of this is in Question.

            The uncertainty is just how involved Industrial heat is in these LENR entities and What is their intention. A monopoly of sorts or to delay LENR we don’t know.

  • Stephen Taylor

    Well, I’m not going to jump to any conclusions, but I’m getting very uncomfortable with the possibility that the one year test may have failed miserably. Hope to heck it ain’t so. What a MESS!!!

    • A mess, yes. The problem however is probably that the test turned out too good. A failed test would have been a lot easier to dissmiss

      • Stephen Taylor

        I remain hopeful, just worried sick. We wait and we hope. The entertainment just got a little too dramatic for my sensitive psyche. Think I’ll take a break.

        • Brokeeper

          Keep the faith. 😉

      • Mike

        A scanned image somewhere in one of the recent threads mentioned that the test includes the hot cat and that the performance shall be constant during the test period. I don’t remember the exact wording. Rossi mentioned a few months ago that the performance/efficiency fell. That means some kind of degradation and the contract doesn’t allow that. That could be one explanation………among a plethora of speculations. Does it fit the contract?

    • Winebuff67

      So they are going to smear the results and everyone involved then turn around and sell as many of these units as possible. I want to hear that sales pitch!;)

  • Stephen Taylor

    Well, I’m not going to jump to any conclusions, but I’m getting very uncomfortable with the possibility that the one year test may have failed miserably. Hope to heck it ain’t so. What a MESS!!!

    • A mess, yes. The problem however is probably that the test turned out too good. A failed test would have been a lot easier to dissmiss

      • Stephen Taylor

        I remain hopeful, just worried sick. We wait and we hope. The entertainment just got a little too dramatic for my sensitive psyche. Think I’ll take a break.

        • Brokeeper

          Keep the faith. 😉

      • Mike

        A scanned image somewhere in one of the recent threads mentioned that the test includes the hot cat and that the performance shall be constant during the test period. I don’t remember the exact wording. Rossi mentioned a few months ago that the performance/efficiency fell. That means some kind of degradation and the contract doesn’t allow that. That could be one explanation………among a plethora of speculations. Does it fit the contract?

    • Winebuff67

      So they are going to smear the results and everyone involved then turn around and sell as many of these units as possible. I want to hear that sales pitch!;)

  • Sylvie Cemoi

    Any news from Defkalion?

    • Haha. Point taken. Always plenty of new smoke but so far we can never find the new fire.

      We persist, anyway.

  • deleo77

    I always thought the answer below by Darden in his Fortune interview last Fall was an important one. Perhaps IH took ash away from the test site for analysis and they didn’t see any transmutation. Darden made a big deal about that in the Lugano test as a key for verification of LENR. Maybe he didn’t see it here. So while there is a COP of 50 Darden wasn’t ready to hand over the cash based on that alone.

    Q: So you’re optimistic?

    A: Yes, In fact, Rossi was awarded an important U.S. patent recently, which is part of what we licensed, covering the use of nickel, platinum or palladium powders, as well as other components, in his heat-producing device. This is one of very few LENR-related patents to date.

    But let me make one thing very clear. We don’t know for sure yet whether it will be commercially feasible. We’ve invested more than $10 million so far in Rossi’s and other LENAR technology and we’ll spend substantially more than that before we know for certain because we want to crush all the tests. (Recently, we have been joined by Woodford Investment Management in the U.K., which has made a much larger investment into our international LENR activities—so we are well funded.)

    Cold fusion has such a checkered past and is so filled with hypesters and people with a gold rush, get-rich-quick mentality. We need to be calm, prudent and not exaggerate. I don’t want to say that cold fusion is real until we can absolutely prove it in ten different ways and then persuade our worst critics to join our camp.

    • Pekka Janhunen

      “I don’t want to say that CF is real until we can absolutely prove it in ten different ways”
      He’s now acting according to this plan, sort of.

      • SG

        Agreed. One of the problems, however, is that you can’t claim publicly that CF isn’t for sure real, and that you can’t substantiate claims, and then file patent applications on those very things. That is not being candid with the patent office.

        • deleo77

          I agree with this. IH would have to surrender their patent if they concretely found something that made their patent not legitimate. Perhaps their investors would also want their money back. People may think IH is getting away with something here, but I see problems for them with the way things currently stand. Not sure what good avenues they have at this point.

  • deleo77

    I always thought the answer below by Darden in his Fortune interview last Fall was an important one. Perhaps IH took ash away from the test site for analysis and they didn’t see any transmutation. Darden made a big deal about that in the Lugano test as a key for verification of LENR. Maybe he didn’t see it here. So while there is a COP of 50 Darden wasn’t ready to hand over the cash based on that alone.

    Q: So you’re optimistic?

    A: Yes, In fact, Rossi was awarded an important U.S. patent recently, which is part of what we licensed, covering the use of nickel, platinum or palladium powders, as well as other components, in his heat-producing device. This is one of very few LENR-related patents to date.

    But let me make one thing very clear. We don’t know for sure yet whether it will be commercially feasible. We’ve invested more than $10 million so far in Rossi’s and other LENAR technology and we’ll spend substantially more than that before we know for certain because we want to crush all the tests. (Recently, we have been joined by Woodford Investment Management in the U.K., which has made a much larger investment into our international LENR activities—so we are well funded.)

    Cold fusion has such a checkered past and is so filled with hypesters and people with a gold rush, get-rich-quick mentality. We need to be calm, prudent and not exaggerate. I don’t want to say that cold fusion is real until we can absolutely prove it in ten different ways and then persuade our worst critics to join our camp.

    • Pekka Janhunen

      “I don’t want to say that CF is real until we can absolutely prove it in ten different ways”
      He’s now acting according to this plan, sort of.

      • SG

        Agreed. One of the problems, however, is that you can’t claim publicly that CF isn’t for sure real, and that you can’t substantiate claims, and then file patent applications on those very things. That is not being candid with the patent office.

        • deleo77

          I agree with this. IH would have to surrender their patent if they concretely found something that made their patent not legitimate. Perhaps their investors would also want their money back. People may think IH is getting away with something here, but I see problems for them with the way things currently stand. Not sure what good avenues they have at this point.

  • jimbo92107

    A steam locomotive would be another undeniable demonstration of Rossi’s technology. No way to hide the output of a hidden combustion engine, no way to hide enough batteries to do the work of a real locomotive. A megawatt of power running a Sterling locomotive would be pretty compelling. Even a simple steam engine would be compelling. All you add is water, and no burned hydrocarbons in the exhaust.

    • Pekka Janhunen

      And something to test that no hydrogen peroxide is added to sharpen the water.

    • it was proposed and refused, AFAIK.

  • jimbo92107

    A steam locomotive would be another undeniable demonstration of Rossi’s technology. No way to hide the output of a hidden combustion engine, no way to hide enough batteries to do the work of a real locomotive. A megawatt of power running a Sterling locomotive would be pretty compelling. Even a simple steam engine would be compelling. All you add is water, and no burned hydrocarbons in the exhaust.

    • Pekka Janhunen

      And something to test that no hydrogen peroxide is added to sharpen the water.

    • it was proposed and refused, AFAIK.

  • etburg

    I wonder if a big underlying factor here is also a significant difference of opinion between the two parties on how quickly to go to market. Rossi has always insisted that the only way to convince people that the ecat is for real and to assure a dominant place in the market is to get a working product out there in large volume as quickly and cheaply as possible. IH seems to be executing to a very different, much slower, long term strategy. They are filing and acquiring patents, making deals with other LENR startups, and not saying much publicly. Just the sort of thing you’d expect from large scale investment interests. You get the feeling that they don’t expect to put anything out in the market for a quite a while and then, only once a very, very careful foundation has been laid in patents, research, etc. Rossi made a comment in a recent post saying IH seemed to want to do R&D forever. Reports, substantiation, turnover of IP etc. aside, it looks like there are two parties here who want very different things in the short term and have very different visions of a path to success. It does make you wonder how they were able to sit in the same room for any length of time and agree on a common vision, unless one or the other (or both) were just playing along to get what they wanted… I confess to being very puzzled and disheartenend by the whole thing and I look forward to seeing something resembling a cold, hard fact turn up, hopefully in the near future…

    • the logic of an ecosystem is that you give access to the other members, in exchange of having access to their IP.

      Rossi imagine that he don’t need others, he don’t have the mood to enter this kind of partnership. let him play alone.

    • SG

      IH has definitely taken a “go slow” posture, supported by public statements made by Mr. Darden.

      Mr. Rossi has definitely taken a “let’s get this show on the road” posture, having done research and development for ~25 years, and now in his sixties, he wants his invention to see the light of day, pronto.

      • e-dog

        SG…. Im very dubious as to whether Roosi wants his invention to see the light of day…

  • etburg

    I wonder if a big underlying factor here is also a significant difference of opinion between the two parties on how quickly to go to market. Rossi has always insisted that the only way to convince people that the ecat is for real and to assure a dominant place in the market is to get a working product out there in large volume as quickly and cheaply as possible. IH seems to be executing to a very different, much slower, long term strategy. They are filing and acquiring patents, making deals with other LENR startups, and not saying much publicly. Just the sort of thing you’d expect from large scale investment interests. You get the feeling that they don’t expect to put anything out in the market for a quite a while and then, only once a very, very careful foundation has been laid in patents, research, etc. Rossi made a comment in a recent post saying IH seemed to want to do R&D forever. Reports, substantiation, turnover of IP etc. aside, it looks like there are two parties here who want very different things in the short term and have very different visions of a path to success. It does make you wonder how they were able to sit in the same room for any length of time and agree on a common vision, unless one or the other (or both) were just playing along to get what they wanted… I confess to being very puzzled and disheartenend by the whole thing and I look forward to seeing something resembling a cold, hard fact turn up, hopefully in the near future…

    • the logic of an ecosystem is that you give (paid) access to the other members, in exchange of having access to their IP.

      Rossi imagine that he don’t need others IP, he don’t have the mood to enter this kind of partnership. let him play alone.

    • SG

      IH has definitely taken a “go slow” posture, supported by public statements made by Mr. Darden.

      Mr. Rossi has definitely taken a “let’s get this show on the road” posture, having done research and development for ~25 years, and now in his sixties, he wants his invention to see the light of day, pronto.

      • e-dog

        SG…. Im very dubious as to whether Roosi wants his invention to see the light of day…

      • billH

        That would be true if he had agreed to a much shorter test, say 1 month, but why agree to such a long test, the only reason I can find in that is the IH wouldn’t agree to anything less. So in order to get his hand on a huge pot of production money he grudgingly agreed? Now the money is not forthcoming he has a much slower progress path.

  • adriano

    Since I visit this site quite often but im not skilled enough to understand the science behind LENR can someone answer this question: few weeks ago an announcment from MFMP apperead. They were stating that they had found the right fuel and the right way to ignite LENR in a reactor. Since they realeased those informations, there is anyone that already replicate their claims?

    • e-dog

      If we are lucky, Bob might show up and answer this for you Adriano!
      I dont know if they are claiming they found the “right way” but they think they found some big indicators to what could be happening. And there are lots of people looking for these indicators in their experiments now.

    • Pekka Janhunen

      There is a new MFMP experiment going on right now in another thread. Today it’s just not yet in the exciting phase. There are also a couple of other replications discussed in two other parallel threads.

    • clovis ray

      quick answer, no

      • adriano

        Ok. Thank you

  • Iggy Dalrymple

    Just food for thought……..but could IH be concerned over the constant attention that the 1 MW required during the 1 year test? How much attention was necessary for the plant’s operation vs monitoring and testing?

    • Jouni Tuomela

      No I do not think so. They really have paid for someone to think all the facts through. Many replications of the phenomena creating excess heat are underway. We just wait and see 🙂

    • Pekka Janhunen

      Certainly, the product as such is commercially not viable because Rossi had to babysit it. But it should have been clear to them already when signing the test protocol. The problem couldn’t have come as a surprise to them last month.

      • radvar

        “should have been clear to them”….

        Maybe, however, it’s another possible crack that things might have fallen through.

        Things like goodwill and trust…

    • Argon

      I dont think that being problem at least in long term. Think about what Rossi could measure from reactor, can be measured using sensors. What ever Rossi could calculate and make adjustments, can be done using controller software (at least 10 000 times faster).
      This is normal bread and butter in industrial automation. Think what for example segway or hover boards have to be able to measure and control. Or car stability control. etc. It would have been only task to convert Rossis knowledge to controller algorithm.

    • US_Citizen71

      I think Rossi was there 16 hours a day to fulfill the contract obligation of doing everything in his power to verify the plant over the 350 day run.

  • Iggy Dalrymple

    Just food for thought……..but could IH be concerned over the constant attention that the 1 MW required during the 1 year test? How much attention was necessary for the plant’s operation vs monitoring and testing?

    • Jouni Tuomela

      No I do not think so. They really have paid for someone to think all the facts through. Many replications of the phenomena creating excess heat are underway. We just wait and see 🙂

    • Pekka Janhunen

      Certainly, the product as such is commercially not viable because Rossi had to babysit it. But it should have been clear to them already when signing the test protocol. The problem couldn’t have come as a surprise to them last month.

    • Argon

      I dont think that being problem at least in long term. Think about what Rossi could measure from reactor, can be measured using sensors. What ever Rossi could calculate and make adjustments, can be done using controller software (at least 10 000 times faster).
      This is normal bread and butter in industrial automation. Think what for example segway or hover boards have to be able to measure and control. Or car stability control. etc. It would have been only task to convert Rossis knowledge to controller algorithm.

    • US_Citizen71

      I think Rossi was there 16 hours a day to fulfill the contract obligation of doing everything in his power to verify the plant over the 350 day run.

    • US_Citizen71

      I think Rossi was there 16 hours a day to fulfill the contract obligation of doing everything in his power to verify the plant over the 350 day run.

  • Who is Barry West? He might be the linchpin in understanding what’s happening.

    So I doubt this is _our_ Barry West but who knows, it’s not like we’re not already in Bizzarro world:

    Barry West FDIC CIO Resigns After Mysterious Leave
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2015/08/17/barry-west-fdic-cio-resigns-after-mysterious-leave/

    But I say West might be important because if you take everyone at face value:
    Rossi happy, litigious
    Fabiani waxing poetic as late as November, only 3 months before test conclusion
    Penon pending but reportedly signed on to COP 50+ and has verified E-Cats multiple times
    JM Products plant customer reportedly met with investors and happy
    Darden happy through ICCF, now circling the wagons
    APCO hired recently for damage control (or product launch?)

    WEST the other man in the box… rumors of a counter-report in the negative… implication is that Rossi is a fraudster and WEST figured out the mechanism deep into the test changing IH’s position almost overnight.

    Stay tuned for our next exciting episode… same cat channel, same cat time.

  • e-dog

    Why is a guy from U of Bologna doing the testing???
    Couldnt Roosi and Co have found a more “neutral” player in this game?
    They may not have have any connection what so ever.. but “If I was Rossi..” I would have pushed for a totally clean slate no connection be it country language or hair colour persons(more than one) to conduct the ERV…
    SRI? CSIRO? Siemens? Bill Nye? Iggy Dairymple?
    Roosi had a great opportunity in Miami to get this sorted out once and for all. I think hes blown it and has just created more layers of intrigue over a simple verification either because he intended to or he is incompetent in business.
    What a mess….

    GO team MFMP!!!! Save the world while Roosi is in court.

    • A simple answer is secrecy and familiarity.

      If I were IH I would have gotten fresh blood in there. But they didn’t. Things that make you go, hmmmm.

      • e-dog

        Me too.

        • e-dog

          not saying its all Rossi’s doing.. but I think his stubbornness and lack of business skills also helped create this situation… who knows what IH and Darden are playing at… the saga continues!

          • Bill Nye would have been a stroke of genius.

        • Bernie Koppenhofer

          You are probably right, it was just hope

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        Right, like they wanted a controversy

        • Facts that support that interpretation:

          failure to find plant customer in a timely fashion and initiate the 1 year contractually obligated test…

          acceptance of Penon as ERV rather than bringing in an unassailable organization able to offer a fresh perspective and credibility…

          no hint of any trouble until the very end of the test (when surely such trouble would have been evident earlier and it would have been much to their benefit to iron out any issues as they found them).

          • I want to expand on the first one a bit.

            Take your mind back to the time after Rossi got his $10M and transfer of some IP had taken place. Rossi, expecting the 1 year test to begin so he can get his $89M more and get his invention, finally, to market, is sorely disappointed by Industrial Heat’s foot dragging.

            Put yourself in his head. At that very moment he must think — and we all know he’s a smart cookie whether you believe he’s a good cookie or an evil cookie — ‘oh crap, the jig is up! They figured me out and they are giving me a window to withdraw quietly.’ And you slink away.

            But no that’s not what happens. He lives through that realization that they have lost confidence in him (at worst) or have no interest in him getting to market and getting his payday anytime soon (at best). And he does what no rational scammer would ever do. He doubles down and insists on the 1 year refereed test to extract even more money from people he no longer has any reason to believe are going to get fooled again.

          • Bernie Koppenhofer

            Something had to make Rossi suspicious, so he held back some IP, it worked once before with Defkalion. IH bit and thinking they had all the IP, showed their true colors and invested in Rossi competitors for cover and started their own IP, lab, patents and the fight was on. Can we assume that IH now has the IP that Rossi held back, via their own involvement in the year long test? If yes, we have a race to market, but IH has a disadvantage, Rossi’s E-Cat x IP and future IP they will not have. Now, at this point, if IH is serious about wanting to get LENR to the market as fast as possible with the best IP, or they do not have the IP from the year test and they are willing to accept Rossi has out witted them they will come to some agreement with Rossi and the 89 million, to truly get all future IP. Or, maybe IH’s game plan from the start was to delay or prevent LENR from reaching the market. This is going to be a good movie.

          • clovis ray

            Bernie, i agree with that, and this statement might be very profound,

            ” maybe IH’s game plan from the start was to delay or prevent LENR from reaching the market.
            This was my concern from the very start, when I/H first signed on. frank and i had a long conversation about it, i can’t believe it has panned out that way, they lied their way into Dr. Rossi’s good graces, and tried to trap him, and got caught themselves.

          • Brent Buckner

            Both parties were willing to sign a deal that from the very beginning was not designed to encourage an harmonious long-term relationship (as Martin Torberg points out at: https://animpossibleinvention.com/2016/04/07/andrea-rossi-sues-industrial-heat-for-89m/#comment-4241). Perhaps nothing new had to happen to make either suspicious – IH may have been suspicious because Rossi had not been fully forthcoming with Defkalion, and Rossi because he had been burned before.

          • Buck

            Martin Torberg makes excellent points and effectively highlights how the schism could have started . . .

            However, it does not justify the apparent schism centered on the ERV’s report. There is the flavor of IH sandbagging Rossi with a 2nd ERV report.

            I will be curious how a measurement error with a COP = +50 could have not been caught by the before/after utility bills. Or the temperature gauges likely already installed and calibrated on the assumed production machinery could have not somehow caught the presumed negative quality of the delivered heat.

            That said . . . we must wait to hear both sides.

      • Anon2012_2014

        Hmmm if we have both sides of the story. There are always three sides: his side, her side, and the truth.

    • Barbierir

      Penon is not from university of Bologna, he’s a freelance consulting engineer

      • e-dog

        but hes not the ERV? is he??

        • artefact

          He is.

          • Well, to be precise he is identified as the ERV in Rossi’s legal compaint, making it highly likely that he is the one and only ERV for the 1 MW plant test.

            But we haven’t gotten Industrial Heat’s rebuttal yet and don’t know if they contend this point. There’s rumors about another test report and ERV floating around.

      • Anon2012_2014

        If I recall correctly, in the 2012 report Penon has a M.Eng. Now in 2016, he is reported to have a Ph.D. This seems to indicate he just finished his Ph.D. dissertation during the period. I also recall that it was stated that Dr. Penon was a graduate of Bologna. Bologna has a strong program in physics, but not all professors are of the same quality. I have heard that Levi is not the strongest of the faculty. So I ask, who did Penon complete his dissertation under at Bologna, and was it possibly Levi?

        • wpj

          Dotori in Italian does not mean that they have a PhD; it is a term of respect for the days when there were few university graduates. He is M Eng as far as everyone knows.

        • Barbierir

          See Penon curriculum at http://www.cobraf.com/forum/immagini/R_123621122_1.pdf, he graduated in 1982. At that time in Italy “dottore” was the highest degree, there was nothing similar to ph.d until later times. Levi is at least 10 years younger.

    • sam

      A.R and T.D should have hired
      Iggy as a go between the two.
      He might have been able to
      give them some good advice.

  • e-dog

    Why is a guy from U of Bologna doing the testing???
    Couldnt Roosi and Co have found a more “neutral” player in this game?
    They may not have have any connection what so ever.. but “If I was Rossi..” I would have pushed for a totally clean slate no connection be it country language or hair colour persons(more than one) to conduct the ERV…
    SRI? CSIRO? Siemens? Bill Nye? Iggy Dairymple?
    Roosi had a great opportunity in Miami to get this sorted out once and for all. I think hes blown it and has just created more layers of intrigue over a simple verification either because he intended to or he is incompetent in business.
    What a mess….

    GO team MFMP!!!! Save the world while Roosi is in court.

    • A simple answer is secrecy and familiarity.

      If I were IH I would have gotten fresh blood in there. But they didn’t. Things that make you go, hmmmm.

      • e-dog

        Me too.

        • e-dog

          not saying its all Rossi’s doing.. but I think his stubbornness and lack of business skills also helped create this situation… who knows what IH and Darden are playing at… the saga continues!

          • Bill Nye would have been a stroke of genius.

          • MorganMck

            You have got to be kidding – right. Bill Nye is borderline incompetent High School science teacher. He would be laughed out of town.

          • I was thinking about the public relations aspects of it.

            But damn man, that’s some serious Bill Nye hate you got going on there. He piss on one of your treasured beliefs or something?

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        Right, like they wanted a controversy

        • Facts that support that interpretation:

          failure to find plant customer in a timely fashion and initiate the 1 year contractually obligated test…

          acceptance of Penon as ERV rather than bringing in an unassailable organization able to offer a fresh perspective and credibility…

          no hint of any trouble until the very end of the test (when surely such trouble would have been evident earlier and it would have been much to their benefit to iron out any issues as they found them).

          • I want to expand on the first one a bit.

            Take your mind back to the time after Rossi got his $10M and transfer of some IP had taken place. Rossi, expecting the 1 year test to begin so he can get his $89M more and get his invention, finally, to market, is sorely disappointed by Industrial Heat’s foot dragging.

            Put yourself in his head. At that very moment he must think — and we all know he’s a smart cookie whether you believe he’s a good cookie or an evil cookie — ‘oh crap, the jig is up! They figured me out and they are giving me a window to withdraw quietly.’ And you slink away.

            But no that’s not what happens. He lives through that realization that they have lost confidence in him (at worst) or have no interest in him getting to market and getting his payday anytime soon (at best). And he does what no rational scammer would ever do. He doubles down and insists on the 1 year refereed test to extract even more money from people he no longer has any reason to believe are going to get fooled again.

          • Bernie Koppenhofer

            Something had to make Rossi suspicious, so he held back some IP, knowing that if IH was a good partner, they would get all the IP after the year long test. It worked once before with Defkalion. IH bit and thinking they had all the IP, showed their true colors and invested in Rossi competitors for cover and started their own IP, lab, patents and the fight was on. Can we assume that IH now has the IP that Rossi held back, via their own involvement in the year long test? If yes, we have a race to market, but IH has a disadvantage, Rossi’s E-Cat x IP and future IP they will not have. Now, at this point, if IH is serious about wanting to get LENR to the market as fast as possible with the best IP, or they do not have the IP from the year test and they are willing to accept Rossi has out witted them they will come to some agreement with Rossi and the 89 million, to truly get all future IP. Or, maybe IH’s game plan from the start was to delay or prevent LENR from reaching the market. Good luck with this, Rossi is going to the market. Or, Rossi decides he does not want to be associated with someone who tried to steal from him. This is going to be a good movie.

          • clovis ray

            Bernie, i agree with that, and this statement might be very profound,

            ” maybe IH’s game plan from the start was to delay or prevent LENR from reaching the market.
            This was my concern from the very start, when I/H first signed on. frank and i had a long conversation about it, i can’t believe it has panned out that way, they lied their way into Dr. Rossi’s good graces, and tried to trap him, and got caught themselves.

          • Brent Buckner

            Both parties were willing to sign a deal that from the very beginning was not designed to encourage an harmonious long-term relationship (as Martin Torberg points out at: https://animpossibleinvention.com/2016/04/07/andrea-rossi-sues-industrial-heat-for-89m/#comment-4241). Perhaps nothing new had to happen to make either suspicious – IH may have been suspicious because Rossi had not been fully forthcoming with Defkalion, and Rossi because he had been burned before.

          • Buck

            Martin Torberg makes excellent points and effectively highlights how the schism could have started . . .

            However, it does not justify the apparent schism centered on the ERV’s report. There is the flavor of IH sandbagging Rossi with a 2nd ERV report.

            I will be curious how a measurement error with a COP = +50 could have not been caught by the before/after utility bills. Or the temperature gauges likely already installed and calibrated on the assumed production machinery could have not somehow caught the presumed negative quality of the delivered heat.

            That said . . . we must wait to hear both sides.

      • Anon2012_2014

        Hmmm if we have both sides of the story. There are always three sides: his side, her side, and the truth.

    • Barbierir

      Penon is not from university of Bologna, he’s a freelance consulting engineer

      • e-dog

        but hes not the ERV? is he??

        • artefact

          He is.

          • Well, to be precise he is identified as the ERV in Rossi’s legal compaint, making it highly likely that he is the one and only ERV for the 1 MW plant test.

            But we haven’t gotten Industrial Heat’s rebuttal yet and don’t know if they contend this point. There’s rumors about another test report and ERV floating around.

      • Anon2012_2014

        If I recall correctly, in the 2012 report Penon has a M.Eng. Now in 2016, he is reported to have a Ph.D. This seems to indicate he just finished his Ph.D. dissertation during the period. I also recall that it was stated that Dr. Penon was a graduate of Bologna. Bologna has a strong program in physics, but not all professors are of the same quality. I have heard that Levi is not the strongest of the faculty. So I ask, who did Penon complete his dissertation under at Bologna, and was it possibly Levi?

        • wpj

          Dotori in Italian does not mean that they have a PhD; it is a term of respect for the days when there were few university graduates. He is M Eng as far as everyone knows.

        • Barbierir

          See Penon curriculum at http://www.cobraf.com/forum/immagini/R_123621122_1.pdf, he graduated in 1982. At that time in Italy “dottore” was the highest degree, there was nothing similar to ph.d until later times. Levi is at least 10 years younger.

    • sam

      A.R and T.D should have hired
      Iggy as a go between the two.
      He might have been able to
      give them some good advice.

    • sam

      A.R and T.D should have hired
      Iggy as a go between the two.
      He might have been able to
      give them some good advice.

  • e-dog

    If we are lucky, Bob might show up and answer this for you Adriano!
    I dont know if they are claiming they found the “right way” but they think they found some big indicators to what could be happening. And there are lots of people looking for these indicators in their experiments now.

  • Pekka Janhunen

    There is a new MFMP experiment going on right now in another thread. Today it’s just not yet in the exciting phase. There are also a couple of other replications discussed in two other parallel threads.

    • Mats002
    • Ged

      Yes, congrats to Pekka! That is an awesome achievement. I bet it is an exciting time!

    • Pekka Janhunen

      Thank you, Ged and Mats tvåan.

    • artefact
      • Curbina

        Looking at the Vortex Thread, it seems to me that Jed Rothwell affirms there was another ERV, and another report that is antagonist to the one of Penon. Rothwell also clearly thinks Penon is completely uncapable of performing the task and says that he would not pay 89 cents based on a report made by Penon, so he is clearly and unambiguosly dismissing the COP 50 figure. This is all hearsay, anyway, even if one has a great respect for Jed Rothwell.

        I am really getting
        tired of the circular arguments of the
        last days and I think that we will have no meaningfull information for
        the time being, other than rumours and hearsay that will be always biased by the one stating it. I don’t think Rossi is lying, I think IH would never
        have invested US$11,5 millions without being convinced of the E cat
        validity, I think they wanted to replicate the 50 COP and could not
        therefore feel scammed by Rossi, but they at least have replicated on
        their own a COP 11 technology (that’s what one can see in their patent
        applications), that should be enough, but off course, a COP 50, once
        being proven, makes anything else obsolete.

        • Barbierir

          According to latest posts by Jed, Rossi has written to Mats that he won’t publish the report because his lawyer said no. I’m sorry to say that Jed is right that the reasons are obvious nonsense. What a mess!
          https://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg109320.html

          • Rossi has been saying publicly that his lawyer doesn’t want him to release the report. Why is this news or damaging in any way? Industrial Heat is also not releasing the report.

          • Barbierir

            From the way it’s now stated it seems the report won’t be published at all, not just delayed. I hope I’m wrong. The report is at a central point in the lawsuit, it’s already strange that it wasn’t included from the start. Certainly it must be at a later point or how can Rossi prove he’s right? Also the reason that he can’t publish the report because it would become invalid evidence is an obvious nonsense. Maybe there are other reasons but certainly not that bogus one.

          • Well it’ll certainly be a part of the lawsuit though we may never see it.

            Maybe they both looked at the ravenous pack of wolves out here on the Internet and decided not to have a trial by flame war.

            I mean look at us… we’ve been picking apart every little nuance we can so far and have a million theories none of which we can prove because the info is so thin and contradictory. Imagine if we actually had a report. It’d be the steam quality wars of 2011 revisited only with nuclear exchanges.

          • Buck

            so now you are a lawyer in the room with Rossi refuting legal advice.

            Why doesn’t IH publish the ERV Report?

          • Michael W Wolf

            Because it is damaging to them.

          • Ged

            Rossi has been saying that on his website, publicly, ever since the legal issues kicked off very soon after the report was released to him. This isn’t some special info given to Mats and then given to Jed.

            It turned from “I’ll get it to you all as soon as everyone agrees”, as was a condition in the license agreement with IH (which we can all read), to “I’ll release it when my lawyer says I can after forensics is done” immediately following the lawsuit being filed.

          • Pekka Janhunen

            Yes.
            I had noticed some months ago that Jed doesn’t seem to follow JONP regularly any more (he didn’t say it, but his questions clearly revealed it). Maybe he thinks he’s too much an insider to have to do that, or is irritated by the noise (although he does tolerate the noise in Vortex), or is tired of Rossi’s personality, or maybe he intentionally wants to avoid falling under Rossi’s “spell”. In any case, JONP is a primary source and if one doesn’t follow it, it’s hard to maintain a coherent picture. Mats and other friends of Jed cannot have enough time to repeat everything in their private emails to him,.

          • SG

            I do follow Mr. Rossi’s blog as I agree it is important to have the finger on the pulse so to speak. But I would invite Jed to simply frequent ECW, because most of the important statements by Mr. Rossi are extracted and copied here, usually into its own post, with quite insightful commentary always to follow by a (usually) friendly and welcoming community.

          • Omega Z

            Did a court Announce that the contract is breached? NO

            Rossi has claimed and may believe IH has breached the contract, but until a court rules on it, it is still legally intact. Thus Rossi can’t release the report as that would breach the contract on his part. NDA’s are still in effect. You can only see what has been made public by the courts.

          • Frank Acland

            However the License Agreement itself was covered by strict confidentiality clauses, and that is now public knowledge after being added to the court docket.

          • Omega Z

            What is disclosed by the court is only what was necessary to file the claim.

            At present, there is no breach of contract. Only a claim. Other then what’s been displayed in court, Until the court makes a ruling whether a breach was committed or not, everything else is still under their original agreements and NDA’s

            Should Rossi or Industrial heat disclose anything else and the court determines there was no breach, then you’ve opened another can of worms, or possibly another claim of breach.

            I note that some say all will now come out in court. That is not a given. Judges have the discretion to sequester certain information at the request of 1 or both parties if they choose.

        • radvar

          “Jed Rothwell affirms there was another ERV”…no, he says that the IH people wrote an internal report.

          “Rothwell also clearly thinks Penon is completely uncapable of performing the task…” — I don’t see any evidence of that in Jed’s comments.

          Please be cautious in attributing views to respected figures. It might be mistaken for leveraging those people’s reputations to promote one’s own views.

          • Curbina not logged in

            Radvar, in Jed Rothwell’s posts you can see he calls Penon a “certified nitwit” and also that he would not pay 89 cents based on a report by Penon. Read all his posts on this topic and see for yourself.

      • Jed’s getting on thin ice I think.

        If the agreed upon ERV submits a professional report that says success relative to the contract terms after 1 year of measurements, then Industrial Heat needs to have a very substantive rebuttal to contest it. They can’t just not pay if they don’t feel like the report is not up to some arbitrary standard or they have regrets about letting Penon be the ERV.

        If their guys in the box have measurements they think contradict the report or they found a mechanism for fraud then they can of course contest the findings. And if that’s so then why wait until now and never voice any complaints during the test? In any case if it comes down to whether it works or not the court can find out easily enough with additional measurements.

      • artefact
        • Now Jed is contradicting himself. Is the ERV report so humiliating that Rossi doesn’t want it out… or is it so good but contradicted by a second report written by someone else?

        • Ged

          That’s just silly on his part. Why doesn’t -IH- publish the report, hmm? They certainly could if they wanted. He’s tying himself into knots here, so I think someone has peddled him some fiction. Maybe some truth is mixed in with that fiction, but definitely too many contradictions.

      • Ged

        A lot of backpeddling, but that sounds more rational. Still not acknowledging that the contract did not have a second ERV, or that IH employees are by definition not an ERV.

        At any rate, have to see if IH actually says that and if they have proof. Jed conveniently ignores that whatever IH says it Also has to prove, not just Rossi.

        Also, we will definitely see the report in the court case, so just have to wait, just like we waited for Lugano.

  • radvar

    This was in the Jed Rothwell link. It’s from April 8. I had not seen it before.

    http://nextbigfuture.com/2016/04/rossi-1-megawatt-energy-catalyzer-is.html?u

    It starts off:

    “Rossi 1 Megawatt Energy Catalyzer is a failure after 3 years of testing by Industrial Heat”

    It contains theses words:

    “That’s where Rossi says the deal started to sour, with Industrial Heat’s alleged ‘inability or failure to secure an adequate facility’ where the test could be completed, preventing him from completing that final milestone in accordance with the initial agreement.”

    The info about an alleged inadequate facility seems like an important area of dispute. Has it been thrashed to pieces yet?

    • Industrial Heat’s apparent failure to find an adequate facility and start the 1 MW plant test is highly problematic. Let’s not sugar coat it, if you’re IH and you’re sitting on the world’s most important technology development and you have business connections like they do, you simply don’t fail to find something unless you want to fail to find something.

      So if it is true that Rossi had to find a plant customer and location because Industrial Heat failed to do so then it’s easy to conclude that something had turned very sour at that very early point in the relationship. The most likely explanation in my mind is that the $89M payday scared them and they had a more take our time and solidify our IP position approach. This initial divergence of interests between IH and Rossi has led to where we are today.

      But the caveat is that this nugget of info comes from Rossi’s legal complaint and we must remain aware that we only have his side of the story in detail so far.

      • wpj

        Plus the comments of “Guest” who supposedly talked with IH people.

        • Up to each individual how much credibility to lend to hearsay and particular posters.

  • ggummm

    The precariat has plenty of time. With cheap energy, creativity will flourish. Decetralisation promotes networking. I believe we are good to go. Besides, bookchin is way more inspiring than shumpeter.

  • I was thinking about the public relations aspects of it.

    But damn man, that’s some serious Bill Nye hate you got going on there. He piss on one of your treasured beliefs or something?

  • artefact
    • Jed’s getting on thin ice I think.

      If the agreed upon ERV submits a professional report that says success relative to the contract terms after 1 year of measurements, then Industrial Heat needs to have a very substantive rebuttal to contest it. They can’t just not pay if they don’t feel like the report is not up to some arbitrary standard or they have regrets about letting Penon be the ERV.

      If their guys in the box have measurements they think contradict the report or they found a mechanism for fraud then they can of course contest the findings. And if that’s so then why wait until now and never voice any complaints during the test? In any case if it comes down to whether it works or not the court can find out easily enough with additional measurements.

    • artefact
      • Now Jed is contradicting himself. Is the ERV report so humiliating that Rossi doesn’t want it out… or is it so good but contradicted by a second report written by someone else?

      • Ged

        That’s just silly on his part. Why doesn’t -IH- publish the report, hmm? They certainly could if they wanted. He’s tying himself into knots here, so I think someone has peddled him some fiction. Maybe some truth is mixed in with that fiction, but definitely too many contradictions.

    • Ged

      A lot of backpeddling, but that sounds more rational. Still not acknowledging that the contract did not have a second ERV, or that IH employees are by definition not an ERV.

      At any rate, have to see if IH actually says that and if they have proof. Jed conveniently ignores that whatever IH says it Also has to prove, not just Rossi.

      Also, we will definitely see the report in the court case, so just have to wait, just like we waited for Lugano.

      Edit: And as I said below, IH could publish the report at any time.

  • Curbina

    Looking at the Vortex Thread, it seems to me that Jed Rothwell affirms there was another ERV, and another report that is antagonist to the one of Penon. Rothwell also clearly thinks Penon is completely uncapable of performing the task and says that he would not pay 89 cents based on a report made by Penon, so he is clearly and unambiguosly dismissing the COP 50 figure. This is all hearsay, anyway, even if one has a great respect for Jed Rothwell.

    I am really getting
    tired of the circular arguments of the
    last days and I think that we will have no meaningfull information for
    the time being, other than rumours and hearsay that will be always biased by the one stating it. I don’t think Rossi is lying, I think IH would never
    have invested US$11,5 millions without being convinced of the E cat
    validity, I think they wanted to replicate the 50 COP and could not
    therefore feel scammed by Rossi, but they at least have replicated on
    their own a COP 11 technology (that’s what one can see in their patent
    applications), that should be enough, but off course, a COP 50, once
    being proven, makes anything else obsolete.

  • artefact

    On JONP:

    “Koen Vandewalle April 13, 2016 at 2:51 PM
    Dear Dr. Andrea Rossi,
    Can you give an idea what % of the symphony is produced directly in Electricity?
    A: 0.01-1
    B: 1.0-10
    C: F8, but I’ve seen mostly A and sometimes B for some time, while
    experimenting. It works very intermittent, and it is hard to predict.
    D: We have to make a test in a container for at least one year.
    Are there still ongoing experiments in order to generate thrust? Does
    this seem a fruitful branch for the future, or is it more a side
    effect?
    Kind Regards, Koen

    Andrea Rossi April 13, 2016 at 3:00 PM
    Koen Vandewalle:
    None of them.
    F8.
    Warm Regards, A.R.”

    So > 10 ?

    • SG

      Either that, or < .01. 😉 F8

    • Pekka Janhunen

      Earlier he hinted at ~50%, although didn’t give exact figure. This answer of his is consistent with that.

  • artefact

    On JONP:

    “Koen Vandewalle April 13, 2016 at 2:51 PM
    Dear Dr. Andrea Rossi,
    Can you give an idea what % of the symphony is produced directly in Electricity?
    A: 0.01-1
    B: 1.0-10
    C: F8, but I’ve seen mostly A and sometimes B for some time, while
    experimenting. It works very intermittent, and it is hard to predict.
    D: We have to make a test in a container for at least one year.
    Are there still ongoing experiments in order to generate thrust? Does
    this seem a fruitful branch for the future, or is it more a side
    effect?
    Kind Regards, Koen

    Andrea Rossi April 13, 2016 at 3:00 PM
    Koen Vandewalle:
    None of them.
    F8.
    Warm Regards, A.R.”

    So > 10 ?

    • SG

      Either that, or < .01. 😉 F8

    • Pekka Janhunen

      Earlier he hinted at ~50%, although didn’t give exact figure. This answer of his is consistent with that.

  • Bob Tivnan

    IH has been so reluctant to make public comments about the lawsuit, and now they talk to Jed, one of the most connected people in the LENR community? This doesn’t fit IH’s profile. Either IH has made an abrupt change of strategy in their public relations, or Jed is being used to spread disinformation in an attempt to discredit Rossi. Am I missing something?

    • SG

      It is a way to get out their message in a plausibly deniable manner. It would be hearsay and so not admissible in court. But they picked someone with good street cred among the LENR community and started feeding him. Brilliant, though underhanded. IH will not go down without a big fight.

      • Bob Tivnan

        We may be seeing the APCO machine at work here.

        • MasterBlaster7

          yep

        • MasterBlaster7

          yep

  • Barbierir

    According to latest posts by Jed, Rossi has written to Mats that he won’t publish the report because his lawyer said no. I’m sorry to say that Jed is right that the reasons are obvious nonsense. What a mess!
    https://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg109320.html

    • Rossi has been saying publicly that his lawyer doesn’t want him to release the report. Why is this news or damaging in any way? Industrial Heat is also not releasing the report.

      • Barbierir

        From the way it’s now stated it seems the report won’t be published at all, not just delayed. I hope I’m wrong. The report is at a central point in the lawsuit, it’s already strange that it wasn’t included from the start. Certainly it must be at a later point or how can Rossi prove he’s right? Also the reason that he can’t publish the report because it would become invalid evidence is an obvious nonsense. Maybe there are other reasons but certainly not that bogus one.

        • Well it’ll certainly be a part of the lawsuit though we may never see it.

          Maybe they both looked at the ravenous pack of wolves out here on the Internet and decided not to have a trial by flame war.

          I mean look at us… we’ve been picking apart every little nuance we can so far and have a million theories none of which we can prove because the info is so thin and contradictory. Imagine if we actually had a report. It’d be the steam quality wars of 2011 revisited only with nuclear exchanges.

    • Buck

      so now you are a lawyer in the room with Rossi refuting legal advice.

      Why doesn’t IH publish the ERV Report?

      • Michael W Wolf

        Because it is damaging to them.

    • Ged

      Rossi has been saying that on his website, publicly, ever since the legal issues kicked off very soon after the report was released to him. This isn’t some special info given to Mats and then given to Jed.

      It turned from “I’ll get it to you all as soon as everyone agrees”, as was a condition in the license agreement with IH (which we can all read), to “I’ll release it when my lawyer says I can after forensics is done” immediately following the lawsuit being filed.

      • Pekka Janhunen

        Yes.
        I had noticed some months ago that Jed doesn’t seem to follow JONP regularly any more (he didn’t say it, but his questions clearly revealed it). Maybe he thinks he’s too much an insider to have to do that, or is irritated by the noise (although he does tolerate the noise in Vortex), or is tired of Rossi’s personality, or maybe he intentionally wants to avoid falling under Rossi’s “spell”. In any case, JONP is a primary source and if one doesn’t follow it, it’s hard to maintain a coherent picture. Mats and other friends of Jed cannot have enough time to repeat everything in their private emails to him,.

        • SG

          I do follow Mr. Rossi’s blog as I agree it is important to have the finger on the pulse so to speak. But I would invite Jed to simply frequent ECW, because most of the important statements by Mr. Rossi are extracted and copied here, usually into its own post, with quite insightful commentary always to follow by a (usually) friendly and welcoming community.

    • Omega Z

      Did a court Announce that the contract is breached? NO

      Rossi has claimed and may believe IH has breached the contract, but until a court rules on it, it is still legally intact. Thus Rossi can’t release the report as that would breach the contract on his part. NDA’s are still in effect. You can only see what has been made public by the courts.

      • Frank Acland

        However the License Agreement itself was covered by strict confidentiality clauses, and that is now public knowledge after being added to the court docket.

        • Omega Z

          What is disclosed by the court is only what was necessary to file the claim.

          At present, there is no breach of contract. Only a claim. Other then what’s been displayed in court, Until the court makes a ruling whether a breach was committed or not, everything else is still under their original agreements and NDA’s

          Should Rossi or Industrial heat disclose anything else and the court determines there was no breach, then you’ve opened another can of worms, or possibly another claim of breach.

          I note that some say all will now come out in court. That is not a given. Judges have the discretion to sequester certain information at the request of 1 or both parties if they choose.

  • Nelson Vogel

    Maybe some bigoil sovereign wealth funds awaked and decided not let LENR era born so soon, and when money talks with one or both parts this mess is the result. COP>50, electricity directly from a device, cheap energy, are not welcome for the fossil fuel mafia that controls the world energy. Will LENR be delayed more 25 years for tests, as happened with F&P ?

    • Julio Ruben Vazquez Turnes

      Not 25 years. For me, the Arabia Saudi Fund is the key. They decided to create it just after the test ended.

      So just wait until they sell all their oil reserves and then the cloud of smoke would dissapear. And we all would suddenly know that they bought Cherokee.

      I dont think it was a coincidence.

      • Nelson Vogel

        Yes, no coincidence here ! The stakes are incredibly high and lawsuits seems be part of a big game. Maybe IH’s new partners are the Chinese and Rossi’s the Arabia Saudi fund. Very similar situation with the Tesla x Edison war for AC or DC. Can’t wait the day that all world’s mainstream midia will announce the good news on Rossi’s LENR solution. Mother nature expect and thanks to have a cleaner environment asap.

  • Zapece

    I would think the strongest argument is the raw data.

  • Julio Ruben Vazquez Turnes

    Not 25 years. For me, the Arabia Saudi Fund is the key. They decided to create it just after the test ended.

    So just wait until they sell all their oil reserves and then the cloud of smoke would dissapear. And we all would suddenly know that they bought Cherokee.

    I dont think it was a coincidence.

  • LarryJ

    It would not matter who was hired as the ERV, you can be sure the discussion would be lively. That is why no report or demo, no matter how long or credible the tester will ever be accepted as proof of the technology. This is a paradigm shifting technology so there will always be highly credible skeptics who will dismiss the findings which in turn will discourage the mainstream press from reporting on it. The only acceptable proof is products in the market.

    I think that for legal reasons IH will probably tell a different story, while at the same time selling working reactors because it will serve their purpose to do so.