ECW Orbo Testing — Orbo Cell Now Behaving According to Steorn's Claims (New Video Posted)

We’re into week 8 of the Orbo testing, and finally I am in a position where I think we can test on an isolated Orbo cell without any interference from internal electronic components.

It’s taken a long time to get to this point, but with the orbo pack that Steorn sent, it seems that the internal voltage controller (which is not an orbo component) had been draining the Orbo cell on o1-2, which was causing the pack not to operate as intended. (Steorn has since informed customers who have ordered Orbo products that they have found problems with the charge controller, and are currently testing a solution.)

If you haven’t been following the threads (I don’t blame you if you haven’t so far!) in a nutshell, I’ve found a way to disable the internal voltage controller on the ports o3-4, and test directly the cell on the o1-2 side of the Orbo pack. This is backwards to how Steorn intended this pack to be tested, but according to Steorn, o1-2 is also an Orbo cell, so it works for testing purposes. If that’s confusing, please refer to the video below for hopefully a clearer explanation.

So with this new approach, I have done some new testing, and what I’ve found is that if you put a load (I am using resistors) on the o1-o2 side of the Orbo pack, the cell will discharge — doing a little work in the process — and when you take the load off, the cell will recharge itself. And so far I have been able to repeat multiple discharge/recharge tests and so far have seen no noticeable degradation in the cell.

This is what Steorn claims happens with Orbo cells, and they have shown this effect in some testing videos they have released.

In the discharge/recharge tests I have been doing, I have not added any external bias voltage. Steorn says that a bias or ‘reference’ voltage can assist with the Orbo recharging, but it’s a lot simpler not to include it.

I have found that after a discharge, the cell will gradually climb to around 3.69-3.70 volts on its own. It might go higher if I left it longer, but as it climbs higher the rate of increase slows, so I haven’t left it long enough yet to see where it might max out.

I haven’t done any power calculations yet, but the raw data is being recorded in the spreadsheet. If anyone would like access to the spreadsheet to include some calculations/charts, etc. please let me know ([email protected]). I would welcome some help in that area.  My intention is to continue the charge/discharge testing for a long time now and keep posting the data for people to look at. Of course I welcome any suggestions for further testing.

Data from discharge/recharge tests done so far can be seen here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UBIA4JTDb_kBwoytR9LP7OP7tH63yUeiPn2kKye4frY/edit#gid=0

So that’s how things stand at the moment. I would say that the signs are now more hopeful of confirming Steorn’s claims than I have seen to this point.

Mar 29, 2016

Here’s a video I made this morning showing a quick discharge/charge cycle using a 22 Ohm resistor. Notice on the recharge some unusual readings. I’m not quite sure what to make of it.

 

For reference:

Week 1 thread
Week 2 thread
Week 3 thread
Week 4-5 thread
Week 6-7 thread
The Google document started by Ged which summarizes key information from testing so far .
The Spreadsheet with the terminal readings from the ocube
Spreadsheet with ECW testing data with the power pack from the ophone
The video posted by Steorn showing some of the inner workings of the Ocube

  • SG

    Frank, sorry I lost touch a little there with your efforts. Glad you have continued on. Let me absorb some of the data and I’ll start sharing some thoughts, although I’m fairly busy with other matters today and tomorrow. I’m sure in the meanwhile some others can start providing some analysis. On quick glance of the latest data, looks encouraging!

  • FC

    Hi Frank.

    I’m sorry too for losing touch over the last few days, but I was traveling. I haven’t stopped watching your tests, though.

    I have just prepared a new sheet on your spreadsheet to calculate the energy output since you quit using the bias. It’s nothing fancy and doesn’t have any charts yet, but I’m working from my phone, and it has its limitations. If anyone wants to draw the charts for me, please do so.

    As you can see, the energy output per discharge is much greater with a 2.2k Ohm than with a 220 Ohm resistor. And even more so than with a 100 Ohm resistor. This is due to the greater impact of the voltage and time factors with higher resistances.

    With a little trial and error, you should be able to find the optimum resistor to keep the tests within your time constraints while extracting as much energy as possible.

    Energy output so far: 12.3 mWh

    • Frank Acland

      That’s really helpful, FC — thanks very much! Did you have to do that manually, or does it log automatically from the main sheet?

      • FC

        Manually. The Google Sheets phone app has its limitations. 🙂

        • Curbina

          Very Good News Frank! Thanks!!!

        • Frank Acland

          Ok, let me know if there’s anything I can do to make this as easy as possible to log. The calculations that you have included are what most people are going to be interested in, so it would be best if we can show that automatically as I enter data.

          • FC

            Ok, let me think about it.

            Oh, by the way, to prevent data gaps, whenever you connect the resistor, could you please take a voltage reading immediately? Thanks.

          • Frank Acland

            Sure. I am going to try a long-term discharge overnight with a 10k Ohm resistor. I’ll put it on just before I go to bed.

          • FC

            Alright. Just be aware that the further apart the readings are in time, the less precise the energy calculations will be. Although the higher the resistance, the more linear the voltage drop will be. So that shouldn’t be too much of a problem. Having said that, as a general rule, I think that in the future it’s better to let it self-charge at night and discharge it during the day.

          • Frank Acland

            Ok, I may do it first thing in the morning then.

          • FC

            Sounds good to me. 🙂

            I’ll try to get online at that time to set up the automatic energy calculation.

          • Ged

            That is absolutely true. It’ll take awhile to rule the battery possibility out, so we must be cautious.

            Well, I have a suspicion Steorn doesn’t actually know how their device truly works, and are just throwing sciency sounding things out there. “Speeding up” or “slowing down” electromagnetic fields doesn’t actually make any sense. I have no doubt it’s an entirely different mechanism than they said there.

            You are doing a great job!

          • vibrator !

            @Alex – fair say, although some of us here are ex-Spudders, and already know it’s real and understand the operating principle (classical CoE doesn’t apply to interactions exploiting passive time-dependent changes in field density).

            So if we’re mostly spectating, it’s cos we already know the coo (well, i do, and probably Greg D., and Frank too..)

            Shaun Mc. has always cautioned against ‘believing’ – skepticism = sanity.. But the fundamental concept is pretty straightforward; if a force varies in time freely, of it’s own accord… that’s free PE.

          • gdaigle

            @vibrator! Agreed. I was firmly hooked on Steorn once they shared their first third party report from a qualified engineer, confirming their discovery. That was almost a decade ago. We members of the SKDB/SPDC (Spudders) were much like posters here, not only posting tens of thousands of comments over 4 years but also attempting replications. Steorn never released enough information for successful replications but we never stopped trying. Many just ran out of steam or patience. All of us who have been through the ups and downs (mostly downs) with Orbo would like to see confirmation, vindication and closure. But Steorn has its unique “lone wolf” way of doing things — so we wait.

          • DrD

            I agree, all that (Alex and Ged) is a very fair summary.

        • Sanjeev

          If by “unusual readings” you mean the jumps etc in voltage, then it can be because of probes not being held steady or may be the voltage rise is not smooth (which will be interesting if confirmed). Anyway its possible to know it only via a scope.
          I’ve used this USB scope in past, it gets the work done. Captures the data into a computer, shows plots etc and costs about $100.
          https://www.poscope.com/PoScopeMega1bundle

    • Andreas Moraitis

      That would be still within the limits of a conventional energy harvester, but it is anyway worthwhile studying. However, I do not think that you can get watertight results with the current instrumentation. Sometime or other the device should be forwarded to HUG, provided that they are still willing to test it. IMHO.

      • DrD

        Do we have any reliable estimates? I assume we can ignore Photovoltaic.

      • FC

        In order to see power generation above conventional energy harvesters, I think that the device would have to be working at the higher end of its performance envelope (perhaps between 3V and 4.7V). But then, Frank would probably have to use a bias again to help the core get back to 4.7V. And we would have to discount the energy input from our calculations. That’s pretty easy to do, but it’s up to Frank.

        • Andreas Moraitis

          In case that the output is plain DC – ok. But Steorn said it is pulsed. If this were true, you would need a meter that takes short enough samples and calculates the average automatically. I do not think that Frank’s meter is capable of doing that.

          • FC

            Agreed. I only meant that probably the device outputs more power at higher voltages than at lower ones. And apparently, the device needs a bias to operate at the higher voltages. 🙂

          • Andreas Moraitis

            Yes, there is more power at higher voltages, and the relationship is not linear, but quadratic. That’s why average voltage would not suffice, you need average power.

          • DrD

            I think a capacitor across O1,2 would smooth out the ac component. I think that may resolve that uncertainty. If there is significant ac present, it will be shorted out and will not be counted in the output energy calc. So will give us a “worst case”. Which is what we want.

          • DrD

            TRUE
            In which case Franks meter might be averaging it, not sure how well. Shauns video showed a triangular wave form.

        • Frank Acland

          When we were at 4.7V we activated the charge controller, and that was gave us the drain, which we don’t want to see.

          • DrD

            If you look at Sanjeevs table below, you can see that the possible ambient energy is very small (uW) so we could easily prove it’s not that. Which only leaves the internal (hidden) battery possibility.

    • DrD

      The Orbo will have internal resistance R(int). It will also dissipate power, just the same as the load Resistance R(load).
      The output power will actually be:
      IxR(int) + IxR(load).
      NOT just the latter term (also given by V^2/R(load).
      If R(int) is much less than R(load) we can (and did) ignore IxR(int).
      However, for low values of R(load) like 100 ohms, then R(int) becomes more significant.
      Noting your observation that 100 Ohm gives less output than 220 and 2.2k is explained by assuming that R(int) is approximately few 100 Ohms.

      • FC

        Right. I am only calculating the usable energy output, not the total energy production necessary to deliver the usable output. It’s similar to measuring the power of a car; we don’t care so much about the engine’s thermal output as we do about the small fraction of that output that gets converted into mechanical power to do usable work. 🙂

        • DrD

          Yes, i appreciate that, i wasn’t complaining, just pointing out there’s a logical explanation and using the higher values of load will minimise the error.

          • FC

            No worries, Dave. 🙂

  • FC

    Hi Frank.

    I’m sorry too for losing touch over the last few days, but I was traveling. I haven’t stopped watching your tests, though.

    I have just prepared a new sheet on your spreadsheet to calculate the energy output since you quit using the bias. It’s nothing fancy and doesn’t have any charts yet, but I’m working from my phone, and it has its limitations. If anyone wants to draw the charts for me, please do so.

    As you can see, the energy output per discharge is much greater with a 2.2k Ohm than with a 220 Ohm resistor. And even more so than with a 100 Ohm resistor. This is due to the greater impact of the voltage and time factors with higher resistances.

    With a little trial and error, you should be able to find the optimum resistor to keep the tests within your time constraints while extracting as much energy as possible.

    Energy output so far: 12.3 mWh

    • Frank Acland

      That’s really helpful, FC — thanks very much! Did you have to do that manually, or does it log automatically from the main sheet?

      • FC

        Manually. The Google Sheets phone app has its limitations. 🙂

        • Frank Acland

          Ok, let me know if there’s anything I can do to make this as easy as possible to log. The calculations that you have included are what most people are going to be interested in, so it would be best if we can show that automatically as I enter data.

          • FC

            Ok, let me think about it.

            Oh, by the way, to prevent data gaps, whenever you connect the resistor, could you please take a voltage reading immediately? Thanks.

          • Frank Acland

            Sure. I am going to try a long-term discharge overnight with a 10k Ohm resistor. I’ll put it on just before I go to bed.

          • FC

            Alright. Just be aware that the further apart the readings are in time, the less precise the energy calculations will be. Although the higher the resistance, the more linear the voltage drop will be. So that shouldn’t be too much of a problem. Having said that, as a general rule, I think that in the future it’s better to let it self-charge at night and discharge it during the day.

          • Frank Acland

            Ok, I may do it first thing in the morning then.

          • FC

            Sounds good to me. 🙂

            I’ll try to get online at that time to set up the automatic energy calculation.

    • Andreas Moraitis

      That would be still within the limits of a conventional energy harvester, but it is anyway worthwhile studying. However, I do not think that you can get watertight results with the current instrumentation. Sometime or other the device should be forwarded to HUG, provided that they are still willing to test it. IMHO.

      • DrD

        Do we have any reliable estimates? I assume we can ignore Photovoltaic.

        • Andreas Moraitis

          Sanjeev posted this table some time ago. No idea how reliable it is:

          http://a.disquscdn.com/uploads/mediaembed/images/3203/8003/original.jpg?w=600&h

          • DrD

            I’m sure Frank could eliminate all of those by doing the testing in an adiabatic metal box but it’s easier if we can just prove they are negligible relative to the output.
            Curious that it doesn’t mention magnetic fileds (not the same as RF).

      • FC

        In order to see power generation above conventional energy harvesters, I think that the device would have to be working at the higher end of its performance envelope (perhaps between 3V and 4.7V). But then, Frank would probably have to use a bias again to help the core get back to 4.7V. And we would have to discount the energy input from our calculations. That’s pretty easy to do, but it’s up to Frank.

        • Andreas Moraitis

          In case that the output is plain DC – ok. But Steorn said it is pulsed. If this were true, you would need a meter that takes short enough samples and calculates the average automatically. I do not think that Frank’s meter is capable of doing that.

          • FC

            Agreed. I only meant that probably the device outputs more power at higher voltages than at lower ones. And apparently, the device needs a bias to operate at the higher voltages. 🙂

          • Andreas Moraitis

            Yes, there is more power at higher voltages, and the relationship is not linear, but quadratic. That’s why average voltage would not suffice, you need average power.

          • DrD

            I think a capacitor across O1,2 would smooth out the ac component. I think that may resolve that uncertainty. If there is significant ac present, it will be shorted out and will not be counted in the output energy calc. So will give us a “worst case”. Which is what we want.

          • DrD

            TRUE
            In which case Franks meter might be averaging it, not sure how well. Shauns video showed a triangular wave form.

        • Frank Acland

          When we were at 4.7V we activated the charge controller, and that was gave us the drain, which we don’t want to see.

          • DrD

            If you look at Sanjeevs table below, you can see that the possible ambient energy is very small (uW) so we could easily prove it’s not that. Which only leaves the internal (hidden) battery possibility.

    • DrD

      The Orbo will have internal resistance R(int). It will also dissipate power, just the same as the load Resistance R(load).
      The output power will actually be:
      (I^2)xR(int) + (I^2)xR(load).
      NOT just the latter term (also given by V^2/R(load).
      If R(int) is much less than R(load) we can (and did) ignore I^2xR(int).
      However, for low values of R(load) like 100 ohms, then R(int) becomes more significant.
      Noting your observation that 100 Ohm gives less output than 220 and 2.2k is explained by assuming that R(int) is about 100 Ohms.
      Edit: oops , another goof. Have just corrected the above where I had Power = IxR, should have put (I^2)XR of course.

      • FC

        Right. I am only calculating the usable energy output, not the total energy production necessary to deliver the usable output. It’s similar to measuring the power of a car; we don’t care so much about the engine’s thermal output as we do about the small fraction of that output that gets converted into mechanical power to do usable work. 🙂

        • DrD

          Yes, i appreciate that, i wasn’t complaining, just pointing out there’s a logical explanation and using the higher values of load will minimise the error.

          • FC

            No worries, Dave. 🙂

  • Curbina

    Very Good News Frank! Thanks!!!

  • Roberto Siquieros

    This is sounding more positive 🙂 What was the average power output for the 12.3mWh? Does this average include periods where the cell wasn’t working as claimed, or is it measured as a clean sheet starting from when you were confident it was doing what its meant to do?

    • DrD

      It’s not an average, it’s a TOTAL from a “clean sheet” starting from 26th.
      I think it’s only coming from the bias (ref cell). There’s also a output cell which should be more powerful but Frark managed to disable it because it is thought to have a fault (possibly it’s control chip).

      • Ged

        Looks like Frank’s intuition saved these experiments. We would have missed so much, without his tenacity. At this rate we’ll get definitive answers within a reasonable span of time.

        • DrD

          I know. i have to admit I doubted it would work (disabling the control chip) so well done Frank!

        • Frank Acland

          Define reasonable, Ged!

          • Ged

            Within our average life spans ;), maybe!

      • Roberto Siquieros

        Hi DrD. Thx for the clarifications. What I was getting at is how is the recent output power comparing with Steorns claims? My question was really in response to Andreas’ comment, “That would be still within the limits of a conventional energy harvester.” There’s a whole bunch of new replies within that thread though, since I posted my question.

        • Frank Acland

          As far as power output, I don’t think this is giving us as much power as the ophone would require. The cell we are testing on is not supposed to drop below 5 volts, and it is designed to be a the ‘reference’ or bias cell for the cell that is disabled. So we are definitely working at lower powers than it is intended for. But it’s the best solution I have been able to come up with given the problems we have seen.

          • Roberto Siquieros

            Hi Frank. I was assuming that Steorn only have one size of cell, so the reference cell was just a standard cell. Do you think it may actually be smaller? I forget how many cells they said the phone and o-cube were shipping with in recent communications.

          • Frank Acland

            Sorry if I was confusing. Yes, according to Shaun, the reference cell is a standard cell, and the ‘primary’ or active cell (on o1-2) is what he calls a ‘half cell’. And I do think we have a full-size cell on o1-2.

            What I meant to say was that the reference cell, the one we are testing, is supposed to operate at +5 volts. When it came it had a bias battery on it which was supposed to keep it from dropping below that 5 V level. That didn’t work out because of the drain (I think caused by the chip controller). So now the cell is operating below 4 V, without the bias on it, so I think we’re getting less power out of the cell than it was intended to produce.

          • Michael W Wolf

            You stuck it out with the Orbo and you stuck it out with Rossi. You are alright Frank. Amazing.

          • Frank Acland

            10 years ago in August I first learned about Steorn. I haven’t been able to shake the feeling that they had something important.
            Same with Rossi when I learned about the E-Cat just over five years ago.

          • Roberto Siquieros

            OK all clear thanks.

  • Roberto Siquieros

    This is sounding more positive 🙂 What was the average power output for the 12.3mWh? Does this average include periods where the cell wasn’t working as claimed, or is it measured as a clean sheet starting from when you were confident it was doing what its meant to do?

    • DrD

      It’s not an average, it’s a TOTAL from a “clean sheet” starting from 26th.
      I think it’s only coming from the bias (ref cell). There’s also a output cell which should be more powerful but Frark managed to disable it because it is thought to have a fault (possibly it’s control chip).

      • Ged

        Looks like Frank’s intuition saved these experiments. We would have missed so much, without his tenacity. At this rate we’ll get definitive answers within a reasonable span of time.

        • DrD

          I know. i have to admit I doubted it would work (disabling the control chip) so well done Frank!

        • Frank Acland

          Define reasonable, Ged!

          • Ged

            Within our average life spans ;), maybe!

      • Roberto Siquieros

        Hi DrD. Thx for the clarifications. What I was getting at is how is the recent output power comparing with Steorns claims? My question was really in response to Andreas’ comment, “That would be still within the limits of a conventional energy harvester.” There’s a whole bunch of new replies within that thread though, since I posted my question.

        • Frank Acland

          As far as power output, I don’t think this is giving us as much power as the ophone would require. The cell we are testing on is not supposed to drop below 5 volts, and it is designed to be a the ‘reference’ or bias cell for the cell that is disabled. So we are definitely working at lower powers than it is intended for. But it’s the best solution I have been able to come up with given the problems we have seen.

          • Roberto Siquieros

            Hi Frank. I was assuming that Steorn only have one size of cell, so the reference cell was just a standard cell. Do you think it may actually be smaller? I forget how many cells they said the phone and o-cube were shipping with in recent communications.

          • Frank Acland

            Sorry if I was confusing. Yes, according to Shaun, the reference cell is a standard cell, and the ‘primary’ or active cell (on o1-2) is what he calls a ‘half cell’. And I do think we have a full-size cell on o1-2.

            What I meant to say was that the reference cell, the one we are testing, is supposed to operate at +5 volts. When it came it had a bias battery on it which was supposed to keep it from dropping below that 5 V level. That didn’t work out because of the drain (I think caused by the chip controller). So now the cell is operating below 4 V, without the bias on it, so I think we’re getting less power out of the cell than it was intended to produce.

          • Roberto Siquieros

            OK all clear thanks.

  • Rii

    Calculations are unsatisfactory
    Please look into the excel spreadsheet carefully. That’s all I can say

    • Ged

      I am curious why that is all you can say? Corrections are very helpful, so don’t hold back!

      • DrD

        No reply? Well I checked it myself and didn’t find a problem.
        I think we have more important news now!!!!!!!!

  • Rii

    Calculations are unsatisfactory
    Please look into the excel spreadsheet carefully. That’s all I can say

    • Ged

      I am curious why that is all you can say? Corrections are very helpful, so don’t hold back!

      • DrD

        No reply? Well I checked it myself and didn’t find a problem.
        I think we have more important news now!!!!!!!!

  • It is surprising that Steorn has not offerred any official comment on the work by E-Catworld on its Orbo/Ophone performance. Surely most of the time and effort represented here in this fine crowd-science exercise has been to struggle with the issues of the dang things being potted into black blobs and being ‘broken’ with faulty controller chips. Perhaps this group could provide a crowd consensus on how, step by step, one would ideally ‘test’ the Orbo tech ‘sans’ the faulty bits ‘potting’ and ‘controller.’ Steorn surely has the capacity to run such tests and present their data which would show the working Orbo realities.

    • Frank Acland

      I am sure they could if they wanted to, but I think they consider it a losing game since people will accuse them of one kind of fakery or another. Actually I think it’s better that we do this on our own as much as possible. I’m just glad we have something we can finally test.

      • I think that it’s great that you are doing this but it is also clearly ‘spending’ your valued time and effort on what is a lot of wasted struggle with the built in faults of the Orbo’s you’ve received. Steorn seems like it is run be people who can manage the ‘flak’ they receive from the pathoskeptics. If what they have is real then it behooves them to make that very clear. I think they will value seeing a ‘crowd-science’ testing protocol being created here. For Steorn to post on e-catworld the data from working bits would be a simple way for them to be contributing to ‘good’ study of their tech.

        An example of something useful here in your work would be to show the similar data that is harvested from making a ‘fake’ Ophone pack as some have suggested there being a hidden battery inside the black potting… if that is so then a test of a ‘battery’ would show whether that data is the same as what you are showing.

        There seems to be some knowledgable people contributing to the work you do. I am hoping they will be able to summarize, point form perhaps, an ideal testing protocol for a ‘good’ Orbo.

        • Frank Acland

          I would welcome any input from Steorn, of course. But they seem to have gone quiet again.

  • Frank Acland

    I made a new video of a discharge/recharge with a 22 Ohm resistor — see above.

    • DrD

      Andrea Rossi

      March 29, 2016 at 1:44 PM

      DEAR READERS:

      WE HAVE RECEIVED RIGHT NOW THE ERV’S REPORT WHICH HAS BEEN DELIVERED TO INDUSTRIAL HEAT AND TO MYSELF.

      While I cannot release the report publicaly at this time, I can state that I am very pleased with the results.

      I hope that Industrial Heat and I will be able to release the report publicaly in the near future.

      May God help us for the hard work waiting for us all.

      Warm Regards,

      Dr Andrea Rossi, CEO of Leonardo Corporation

      • SG

        Wow. Time for a big new post Frank!

        • DrD

          I know
          AT LAST !!!!!!!!!
          Sorry its in the wrong place but wanted to get Franks attention.

  • Frank Acland

    I made a new video of a discharge/recharge with a 22 Ohm resistor — see above.

    • DrD

      Andrea Rossi

      March 29, 2016 at 1:44 PM

      DEAR READERS:

      WE HAVE RECEIVED RIGHT NOW THE ERV’S REPORT WHICH HAS BEEN DELIVERED TO INDUSTRIAL HEAT AND TO MYSELF.

      While I cannot release the report publicaly at this time, I can state that I am very pleased with the results.

      I hope that Industrial Heat and I will be able to release the report publicaly in the near future.

      May God help us for the hard work waiting for us all.

      Warm Regards,

      Dr Andrea Rossi, CEO of Leonardo Corporation

      • SG

        Wow. Time for a big new post Frank!

        • DrD

          I know
          AT LAST !!!!!!!!!
          Sorry its in the wrong place but wanted to get Franks attention.

  • Andreas Moraitis

    I wonder if one could imitate the ‘self-charging’ effect that way:

    https://www.clear.rice.edu/elec201/Book/images/img89.gif

    If you discharge the capacitor directly by bridging the plates, the battery could keep most of its charge due to its different characteristics and because there is a resistor in the upper line. After removing the load, the capacitor would be recharged slowly by the battery.

    • SG

      Yes, this could imitate what we see. That is why we will need to measure the energy from the Orbo cell over a long period of time to rule out the possible battery by weight/volume. Due to the potting, it is the only sure way we have of ruling out the battery. Now that Frank has one Orbo cell behaving more or less as intended, I think we can finally build a long-term experiment to determine that there is no battery buried in the potting.

      • Andreas Moraitis

        „That is why we will need to measure the energy from the Orbo cell over a long period of time”

        That’s what I have been saying from the start.

  • Andreas Moraitis

    I wonder if one could imitate the ‘self-charging’ effect that way:

    https://www.clear.rice.edu/elec201/Book/images/img89.gif

    If you discharge the capacitor directly by bridging the plates, the battery could keep most of its charge due to its different characteristics and because there is a resistor in the upper line. After removing the load, the capacitor would be recharged slowly by the battery.

    • SG

      Yes, this could imitate what we see. That is why we will need to measure the energy from the Orbo cell over a long period of time to rule out the possible battery by weight/volume. Due to the potting, it is the only sure way we have of ruling out the battery. Now that Frank has one Orbo cell behaving more or less as intended, I think we can finally build a long-term experiment to determine that there is no battery buried in the potting.

      • Andreas Moraitis

        „That is why we will need to measure the energy from the Orbo cell over a long period of time”

        That’s what I have been saying from the start.

  • I want to echo some of the comments that some others are making. Even in spite of some of the more pseudoskeptical posters who were urging you to quit, you kept going, and now you seem to have gotten something going. GOOD JOB!!! Now, if only there was a way to show the energy harvesting possibility to be highly unlikely. I wish that I could build you a big Faraday cage…

    • DrD

      hehe, agree. A big thermaly insulated adiabatic, anechoic, Mu Metal, Faraday dark room on vibration absorbing springs will do nicely. Just joking. Seriously though, Franks done a fantastic job and I think we may be able to prove it with out all that much screening.

      • Frank Acland

        This thing is very small — only about 50 grams. I could wrap it in foil, put it in metal boxes, etc.

        • DrD

          Sanjeevs table gives very small estimates, I think you are already exceeding those. Thin foil doesn’t black long wave lengths but a metal box will and will shield from mild temperature effects.

        • John A

          Have you considered running your “thing” through an x-ray machine? Don’t know where you live, but even a small medical outfit would possibly be able to help you out. An x-ray should be able to give you some clues about a hidden battery (or lack of one).

      • Really? COOL!!! So, does Frank just have to repeat the process enough times to show that it is not due to known energy harvesting principles?

        • Frank Acland

          We need to discount the possibility that Steorn has sent me the best battery in the world.

          • DrD

            I am wondering if the 10k might just be high enough to allow the charging to ballance the discharge. Will you still do that over night?

          • Frank Acland

            Maybe tomorrow. I have a 4.7k on for now and will keep it on for a while longer today. Recharge overnight makes more sense.

          • Frank Acland

            I just put a 10k Ohm resistor on.

        • DrD

          I think so but the bigger challenge is to prove they haven’t hidden a battery inside. Personally I don’t think that’s likely.
          Aha, Frank out typed me first.

    • I just want to see a photo of Frank wearing his tin foil hat and the O-data from when he has the hat on and off 😉

  • DrD

    hehe, agree. A big thermaly insulated adiabatic, anechoic, Mu Metal, Faraday dark room on vibration absorbing springs will do nicely. Just joking. Seriously though, Franks done a fantastic job and I think we may be able to prove it with out all that much screening.

    • Frank Acland

      This thing is very small — only about 50 grams. I could wrap it in foil, put it in metal boxes, etc.

      • DrD

        Sanjeevs table gives very small estimates, I think you are already exceeding those. Thin foil doesn’t black long wave lengths, a metal box will.

      • John A

        Have you considered running your “thing” through an x-ray machine? Don’t know where you live, but even a small medical outfit would possibly be able to help you out. An x-ray should be able to give you some clues about a hidden battery (or lack of one).

      • Zephir

        Which I appreciate Mr. Acland time and effort, I don’t understand, what Mr. Acland is actually testing, which is the scheme of the device, where, when and how the voltages/currents(?) are measured and applied.

        • DrD

          In brief.
          The reference cell was discharged a few days ago to give a “clean sheet”.
          Since then, there has been NO external bias or charging whatseoever.
          Conclusion is that all of the charge being withdrawn (see the SS) has come from some source inside, be it a hidden battery, ambient captured energy or, for lack of a better description from the mysterious ORBO generator.

    • Really? COOL!!! So, does Frank just have to repeat the process enough times to show that it is not due to known energy harvesting principles?

      • Frank Acland

        We need to discount the possibility that Steorn has sent me the best battery in the world.

        • DrD

          I am wondering if the 10k might just be high enough to allow the charging to ballance the discharge. Will you still do that over night?

          • Frank Acland

            Maybe tomorrow. I have a 4.7k on for now and will keep it on for a while longer today. Recharge overnight makes more sense.

          • Frank Acland

            I just put a 10k Ohm resistor on.

      • DrD

        I think so but the bigger challenge is to prove they haven’t hidden a battery inside. Personally I don’t think that’s likely.

      • kenko1

        Since day 1, with the receipt of the orbo and ophone power pack how many AA,AAA, tablets & cell batteries/calls have been charged with said devices?

        • Frank Acland

          I’ve given up testing on the Ocube for now. It definitely doesn’t function as it should. This cell in the Orbo pack is the only thing that seems to be showing any promise.

          • Frank Acland

            And I haven’t been trying to charge anything with it — just measuring power output with resistors.

          • DrD

            Which is more sensible, more quantitive

          • Andreas Moraitis

            If you do not plan further tests on the OCube, why don’t you put it into a bucket with thinner? This would likely kill the remaining cells, but we might at least be able to reconstruct a circuit diagram.

          • Frank Acland

            I haven’t discounted further testing on the ocube. It has orbo cells in it which I don’t want to kill. I think maybe, like the orbo pack, it may have an internal drain. Anyway if I can find a friendly xray tech, I’ll take both units along.

          • Sanjeev

            The ocube is shielded by metal, the x-ray will be just a flat circle. It will be necessary to remove the metal casing first, which I think will be difficult.

          • Alex Fenrick

            The metal case could actually be machined off quickly and easily even on an ancient mill.

          • Sanjeev

            Of course. But it will be so much easier if steorn simply sends a pack of orbos to Frank. Perhaps on condition that it will be returned in one piece after the test.

          • Alex Fenrick

            Agreed Sanjeev….but do you think they will actually do that? Seems that Steorn has gone completely underground at this point. No more facebook updates or even comments, in fact the facebook page is now locked I believe. No working Ophones out there anymore, and no office phone response at Steorn either. They are doing a pretty good job of looking extremely shady at this point by their own accord. The investors must rightfully be livid at this point. Hopefully Shaun will pop his head back above ground at some point to at least tell us something beyond that letter that went out…a letter that most of us predicted would come as a delay. It is getting just as interesting on the business/administrative/product side of this whole situation as is the technical side…

          • Sanjeev

            Well thats business as usual for steorn. We all know its never a straight situation there, so lets wait and watch, nothing else can be done.

  • Michael W Wolf

    You stuck it out with the Orbo and you stuck it out with Rossi. You are alright Frank. Amazing.

    • Frank Acland

      10 years ago in August I first learned about Steorn. I haven’t been able to shake the feeling that they had something important.
      Same with Rossi when I learned about the E-Cat just over five years ago.

  • Bob Greenyer

    Nice job Frank for sticking with this

  • Bob Greenyer

    Nice job Frank for sticking with this

  • I wonder if anyone following this thread is able to find a PLC trojan on a controller chip such as the one in the O devices…. since Shaun of Steorn published the photos of all of the electronic snooping bugs discovered in the Steorn office and then the O’s mysteriously fail one has to be at least curious about those whose livilihoods are so incredibly threatened by functioning Orbo’s. Frank has two of the misbehaving controllers…subject to de-potting.

    • Roberto Siquieros

      Hi Russ. I think l missed a bit. Where / when did they publish this, about the bugs?

      • Pweet

        The recharge shown in the above video looks very much like the apparent self recharge of a rechargeable lithium battery when it has been discharged to below it’s “flat” voltage of 2.7 volts.
        A flat lithium battery floats at an output voltage of around 2.7 volts or more. If you flatten it below this voltage and then remove the load, it will re-form back to it’s flat voltage, unless the cell is damaged by being run flat too often.
        The cell does not self re-charge to any significant proportion of it’s full capacity even though the voltage might be up around 3 volts.
        Every time the cell is run completely flat it is damaged a bit more until quite soon the cell does not recover.
        The rapid discharge of the cell in a few seconds with only a 22 ohm resistor as a load is consistent with all this.

        I think the Orbo power pack with all its associated circuitry is designed to prevent damage to the cell by shutting down the output from the USB connector when the orbo cell voltage drops below the lower safe cell voltage.

      • Frank Acland

        Thanks Preston. I’m that concerned about damaging the cell. If we get to 5 V then we run the risk of activating the voltage controller, but I’m not too worried about that because I don’t think we’ll hit 5V without a bias input. I think I’ll put a 20k Ohm on for a while and see what happens.

  • I wonder if anyone following this thread is able to find a PLC trojan on a controller chip such as the one in the O devices…. since Shaun of Steorn published the photos of all of the electronic snooping bugs discovered in the Steorn office and then the O’s mysteriously fail one has to be at least curious about those whose livilihoods are so incredibly threatened by functioning Orbo’s. Frank has two of the misbehaving controllers…subject to de-potting.

  • Sanjeev

    If by “unusual readings” you mean the jumps etc in voltage, then it can be because of probes not being held steady or may be the voltage rise is not smooth (which will be interesting if confirmed). Anyway its possible to know it only via a scope.
    I’ve used this USB scope in past, it gets the work done. Captures the data into a computer, shows plots etc and costs about $100.
    https://www.poscope.com/PoScopeMega1bundle

  • Frank Acland

    I realize the need for long term discharge/recharge testing to rule out the possibility of a battery, but thinking logically, it doesn’t make much sense that Steorn would send me something that works worse than any battery for a couple of weeks, until we do a trick with a resistor (that we had to figure out on our own), and then an amazing battery kicks in!

    • SG

      No doubt (in my mind), you are correct. But as you acknowledge, it needs to be done. Without it, there is still room for doubt (in the minds of others).

    • Andreas Moraitis

      If the output is not plain DC, you will need different (expensive) equipment. However, there might be a way to get at least a rough estimate of the released energy. You could try to charge a large capacitor by the Orbo. The stored energy could be inferred from the voltage and the capacitance. Then discharge it and repeat. The disadvantage is that you would have to do this very often (maybe a few hundred times) to be on the safe side.

      • DrD

        As I said before, simply adding a smoothing capacitor will do a pretty good job and give us a worst case answer anyway as any significant ac component will be effectively “trashed”.

        • DrD

          “worst case” meaning the output power will be underestimated.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            Yes, but perhaps too much underestimated. That would be no problem if plenty of watthours were available, but as it seems you can withdraw only some tens of Joules at once.

          • DrD

            Yes, that’s true. If so, it could be rectified but I doubt Frank would want to go that way.

    • Michael W Wolf

      I was thinking that too Frank. There is no battery in there it seems. Orbo works I think. Albeit not quite as well as I thought.

      • You’re misrepresenting me. I didn’t say, “you don’t need to know,” I said that he needs to figure it out, himself. Of course, Frank came in and explained a bunch of stuff to him that was already known, and would have been known to anyone who was paying careful attention. I, personally, hate explaining things to people when I think that they should already know, or be able to find out, easily.

        • Bob Tavis

          Wait a minute. I only came here a week ago so I do not know all that transpired over the last two months. And asking questions is typically the way you find things out. And I did pay attention to what Frank said and thanked him. If you hate explaining things then do not respond and let someone else who has slightly more tact than you have respond. It’s not like I was grilling or demanding anything from you or anyone.

  • Frank Acland

    I realize the need for long term discharge/recharge testing to rule out the possibility of a battery, but thinking logically, it doesn’t make much sense that Steorn would send me something that works worse than any battery for a couple of weeks, until we do a trick with a resistor (that we had to figure out on our own), and then an amazing battery kicks in!

    • Matt

      I am not really sure if one can use the term “makes sense” when dealing with Steorn. Until now nothing really made sense.

    • Andreas Moraitis

      If the output is not plain DC, you will need different (expensive) equipment. However, there might be a way to get at least a rough estimate of the released energy. You could try to charge a large capacitor by the Orbo. The stored energy could be inferred from the voltage and the capacitance. Then discharge it and repeat. The disadvantage is that you would have to do this very often (maybe a few hundred times) to be on the safe side.

      • DrD

        As I said before, simply adding a smoothing capacitor will do a pretty good job and give us a worst case answer anyway as any significant ac component will be effectively “trashed”.

        • DrD

          “worst case” meaning the output power will be underestimated.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            Yes, but perhaps too much underestimated. That would be no problem if plenty of watthours were available, but as it seems you can withdraw only some tens of Joules at once.

          • DrD

            Yes, that’s true. If so, it could be rectified but I doubt Frank would want to go that way.

    • Michael W Wolf

      I was thinking that too Frank. There is no battery in there it seems. Orbo works I think. Albeit not quite as well as I thought.

  • Pweet

    The recharge shown in the above video looks very much like the apparent self recharge of a rechargeable lithium battery when it has been discharged to below it’s “flat” voltage of 2.7 volts.
    A flat lithium battery floats at an output voltage of around 2.7 volts or more. If you flatten it below this voltage and then remove the load, it will re-form back to it’s flat voltage, unless the cell is damaged by being run flat too often.
    The cell does not self re-charge to any significant proportion of it’s full capacity even though the voltage might be up around 3 volts.
    Every time the cell is run completely flat it is damaged a bit more until quite soon the cell does not recover.
    The rapid discharge of the cell in a few seconds with only a 22 ohm resistor as a load is consistent with all this.

    I think the Orbo power pack with all its associated circuitry is designed to prevent damage to the cell by shutting down the output from the USB connector when the orbo cell voltage drops below the lower safe cell voltage.

  • Have to admit this is more evidence that the orbo works than I ever thought we were going to see.

  • Zephir

    Which I appreciate Mr. Acland time and effort, I don’t understand, what Mr. Acland is actually testing, which is the scheme of the device, where, when and how the voltages/currents(?) are measured and applied. Which charge/energy has been put into unit and which one we got back?

    • DrD

      In brief.
      The reference cell was discharged a few days ago to give a “clean sheet”.
      Since then, there has been NO external bias or charging whatseoever.
      Conclusion is that all of the charge being withdrawn (see the SS) has come from some source inside, be it a hidden battery, ambient captured energy or, for lack of a better description from the mysterious ORBO generator.

  • vibrator !

    The jumps in recovery are hysteresis effects, consistent with “avalanching” domains.

    It likely indicates that the coercivity of the domain matrix is somewhat variable – some parts are “‘pinned” more firmly than others, and their ability to be coerced depends upon the current level of induced polarisation.

    This is one of the basic characterstics of hysteresis and systems with remanance / retentivity – the system’s response to an applied field is a dependent function of its changing induced field, with some degree of self-induction.. As more holdout domains comply, peer pressure grows on the remainder..

    • gdaigle

      For those wondering, here are some useful definitions:

      ANTIPOLE. A domain within a permanent magnet which is ‘pinned’ in opposition to the majority of domain polarities.

      COERCIVITY. A measure of the strength of an opposing magnetic field needed to fully demagnetize a completely magnetized material.

      DOMAIN. Magnetic. All magnets contain ‘domains’. These are areas (of variable size, dependent on the material) wherein the majority of the atomic dipoles are aligned. A typical Neodymium magnet (for example) contains thousands of microscopic domains.

      ‘H’ Field. An external magnetic field that causes a magnetic material within its influence to become magnetized

      HYSTERESIS. Property of a magnetic material where an inducing ‘H’ field produced a ‘B’ field in the material that depends on its previous ‘historical’ state. It should not be confused with Lag.

      MH CURVE. a curve that shows the relationship between the internal magnetization M of a magnetic material in response to an external magnetic field H. The magnetization is caused by alignment of magnetic domains within the material and a typical MH curve shows that magnetization M increases with increasing H field, but then levels off to a maximum value as full alignment of all the domains is approached.

      RETENTIVITY, Remanence. The capacity of a material to retain induced magnetism. Permanent Magnets like ‘Neos’ have high retentivity and are said to be ‘hard’ magnets. Ferrites have low retentivity and are generally said to be ‘soft’, although ‘hard’ grades of ferrite are available.

      REMANENCE, Retentivity. The level of magnetism remaining in a magnet after an inducing external ‘H’ field is removed.

    • R V

      The slow rates suggest it really is getting the energy just from ambient thermal and not some mysterious source. I’m going to a physics symposium in June in San Diego in which one of the presenters is going to talk about ‘remanence’ of magnetic systems in a potential Second Law violation scheme.

      A simple experiment might be to test the charging rates vs. temperature
      of the ambient and device.

      • Zephir

        /* I’m going to a physics symposium in June in San Diego in which one of
        the presenters is going to talk about ‘remanence’ of magnetic systems in
        a potential Second Law violation scheme. */

        Do you have some link or more info about program? Thank You for Your reply in advance.

      • DrD

        Doesn’t it require a temperature differential?

        • R V

          That’s why a device that converts ambient thermal energy would be a Second law violator.

  • vibrator !

    The jumps in recovery are hysteresis effects, consistent with “avalanching” domains.

    It likely indicates that the coercivity of the domain matrix is somewhat variable – some parts are “‘pinned” more firmly than others, and their ability to be coerced depends upon the current level of induced polarisation.

    This is one of the basic characterstics of hysteresis and systems with remanance / retentivity – the system’s response to an applied field is a dependent function of its changing induced field, with some degree of self-induction.. As more holdout domains comply, peer pressure grows on the remainder..

    • gdaigle

      For those wondering, here are some useful definitions:

      ANTIPOLE. A domain within a permanent magnet which is ‘pinned’ in opposition to the majority of domain polarities.

      COERCIVITY. A measure of the strength of an opposing magnetic field needed to fully demagnetize a completely magnetized material.

      DOMAIN. Magnetic. All magnets contain ‘domains’. These are areas (of variable size, dependent on the material) wherein the majority of the atomic dipoles are aligned. A typical Neodymium magnet (for example) contains thousands of microscopic domains.

      ‘H’ Field. An external magnetic field that causes a magnetic material within its influence to become magnetized

      HYSTERESIS. Property of a magnetic material where an inducing ‘H’ field produced a ‘B’ field in the material that depends on its previous ‘historical’ state. It should not be confused with Lag.

      MH CURVE. a curve that shows the relationship between the internal magnetization M of a magnetic material in response to an external magnetic field H. The magnetization is caused by alignment of magnetic domains within the material and a typical MH curve shows that magnetization M increases with increasing H field, but then levels off to a maximum value as full alignment of all the domains is approached.

      RETENTIVITY, Remanence. The capacity of a material to retain induced magnetism. Permanent Magnets like ‘Neos’ have high retentivity and are said to be ‘hard’ magnets. Ferrites have low retentivity and are generally said to be ‘soft’, although ‘hard’ grades of ferrite are available.

      REMANENCE, Retentivity. The level of magnetism remaining in a magnet after an inducing external ‘H’ field is removed.

    • R V

      The slow rates suggest it really is getting the energy just from ambient thermal and not some mysterious source. I’m going to a physics symposium in June in San Diego in which one of the presenters is going to talk about ‘remanence’ of magnetic systems in a potential Second Law violation scheme.

      A simple experiment might be to test the charging rates vs. temperature
      of the ambient and device.

      • Zephir

        /* I’m going to a physics symposium in June in San Diego in which one of
        the presenters is going to talk about ‘remanence’ of magnetic systems in
        a potential Second Law violation scheme. */

        Do you have some link or more info about program? Thank You for Your reply in advance.

        /*The slow rates suggest it really is getting the energy just from ambient thermal and not some mysterious source.*/

        The discharging of 3 Volts by 20 Ohm resistor gives currents higher than 100 mA – such a power density is difficult to imagine being originated from ambient thermal.

        http://a.disquscdn.com/uploads/mediaembed/images/3203/8003/original.jpg

      • DrD

        Doesn’t it require a temperature differential?

        • R V

          That’s why a device that converts ambient thermal energy would be a Second law violator.

  • John A

    Have you considered running your “thing” through an x-ray machine? Don’t know where you live, but even a small medical outfit would possibly be able to help you out. An x-ray should be able to give you some clues about a hidden battery (or lack of one).

    • Frank Acland

      I have considered it. I would have to find someone who would cooperate and not charge too much.

      • DrD

        I woundn’t waste your time Frank. This is a typical X-ray image and it’s done with equipement made just for the purpose. At best you might see shapes and wires but it won’t tell you what the shapes are. You can’t even assume the lighter areas aren’t some kind of elctrolyte.

        • Frank Acland

          Interesting. Maybe just more scraping then!

          • Sanjeev

            The x-ray will not reveal much but it will help to identify the resin areas which can be removed safely. If you can bring down the weight significantly, it will reduce months of testing.
            If you can find a wire going to the controller, you can dig there and cut it off. So we will get the primary orbo working too. I guess the primary has more juice, so it will reduce the test duration further.

        • DrD

          Even more interesting behaviour there Frank:
          It was fairly stable over the previous few days in that it was outputting about 40uW whilst O1-2 remained almost constant at about 1.7V.
          You removed the load and O1,2 “shot” up to 2.4V in only about 2 1/2 hours.
          You added a load and it output about 40uW (average) and “quickly” fell back to about 1.6V in less than 1 1/2 hours.
          This very clearly confirms the memory effect that we discussed earlier.
          I think I could simulate this behaviour with a small capacitor (maybe with a moderate series resistance) in parallel with a large capacitor with a large series resistance.
          If I get time, I might have a go (with the simulation).

          Maybe I could see if a battery (flat battery) could logically be included.
          Dave

          • Frank Acland

            I decided to let it sit for a day and try again with the same load and see if it acts differently. Shaun told me once that it takes time to recover from a discharge.

          • Sounds good, to me. Isn’t The Orbo Power Pack kinda made like a capacitor? if you can cause The Orbo Effect to happen with only “normal” capacitors and/or electrets, then we might be able to start making our own Orbo-Effect-powered machines, and sidestep all of the incompetence that these clowns at Steorn are putting us through if we want to see Orbo-Effect-powered machines up and running.

          • DrD

            Hi Mark. The simulation I mentioned was only a computer simulation based on Capacitances (R-C circuit) to attempt to reproduce the short term and long term charge-discharging behaviour based on a generic battery or some kind of generic generator. Sorry if I raised your hopes that I could make a capacitor work as a generator. Anyway, YES your right I believe the claim is that the electrets act as very large capacitors amongst other things.

          • It’s cool, man. Computer simulations are cool, too. I was just saying to not be discouraged by pseudoskeptics who think that they need to understand something before other people are allowed to do experiments.

    • Any local veternarian is likely able to do an x-ray for you for under $100, expose one suitable sized film, perhaps flipping the device to make two side by side exposures shieldiing one side of course during the exposures. It is no more complicated than an x-ray of an injured dogs leg. Easier as the O device won’t squirm or bark 🙂

  • John A

    Have you considered running your “thing” through an x-ray machine? Don’t know where you live, but even a small medical outfit would possibly be able to help you out. An x-ray should be able to give you some clues about a hidden battery (or lack of one).

    • Frank Acland

      I have considered it. I would have to find someone who would cooperate and not charge too much.

      • DrD

        I woundn’t waste your time Frank. This is a typical X-ray image and it’s done with equipement made just for the purpose. At best you might see shapes and wires but it won’t tell you what the shapes are. You can’t even assume the lighter areas aren’t some kind of elctrolyte.

        • Frank Acland

          Interesting. Maybe just more scraping then!

          • Sanjeev

            The x-ray will not reveal much but it will help to identify the resin areas which can be removed safely. If you can bring down the weight significantly, it will reduce months of testing.
            If you can find a wire going to the controller, you can dig there and cut it off. So we will get the primary orbo working too. I guess the primary has more juice, so it will reduce the test duration further.

    • Any local veternarian is likely able to do an x-ray for you for under $100, expose one suitable sized film, perhaps flipping the device to make two side by side exposures shieldiing one side of course during the exposures. It is no more complicated than an x-ray of an injured dogs leg. Easier as the O device won’t squirm or bark 🙂

  • Alex Fenrick

    I have noticed a trend of people joining this discussion recently and I believe there may be a bit of a skewed perspective being generated about the “successes” being made as of late. I just want to make sure for those out there following along who are not engineers that we make clear what has been found so far as obviously there is some confusion. Correct me if I am wrong here guys…but while Frank has found a very smart means to test the device in a different manner due to an assumed damaged controller, and actually is seeing a situation of self-recharging…this absolutely in no way shape or form confirms the Orbo effect at this moment. What this does confirm (which is what many of us have been thinking since the very beginning of testing) is that there is some sort of recharge occurring either via known-method captured energy action, a hidden battery (traditional or time-release catalyst) or possibly the Orbo effect. Again for the non-engineer…in fairness I will point out that the only one of the possibilities I mentioned that breaks the laws of science is the Orbo effect…the other possibilities are all very simple to create to see the effect we are seeing especially buried in potting. This is definitely a step in the right direction, but for research sake we need to make sure we do not make gross assumptions especially ones that break the laws of science. Please correct me if this is not fair correct info as I do not want to add to misinformation either……as usual GREAT work Frank…too bad you aren’t being paid hourly!!! haha

    • Ged

      You are correct. That is a great summary assessment.

      A couple points though: The self charging appears higher than most know energy harvesters, at least those of engineering in the public domain. However, the recharging is still lower than Steorn claims.
      Also, the Orbo effect could just be a new energy harvesting effect, so I certainly don’t think it is breaking any scientific laws, though it may be new science (or rather a spin on known effects).

    • Obvious

      Make your own never die charger. Instructions here.

      https://youtu.be/hyawSVq9lCM?t=524

  • Alex Fenrick

    I have noticed a trend of people joining this discussion recently and I believe there may be a bit of a skewed perspective being generated about the “successes” being made as of late. I just want to make sure for those out there following along who are not engineers that we make clear what has been found so far as obviously there is some confusion. Correct me if I am wrong here guys…but while Frank has found a very smart means to test the device in a different manner due to an assumed damaged controller, and actually is seeing a situation of self-recharging…this absolutely in no way shape or form confirms the Orbo effect at this moment. What this does confirm (which is what many of us have been thinking since the very beginning of testing) is that there is some sort of recharge occurring either via known-method captured energy action, a hidden battery (traditional or time-release catalyst) or possibly the Orbo effect. Again for the non-engineer…in fairness I will point out that the only one of the possibilities I mentioned that breaks the laws of science is the Orbo effect…the other possibilities are all very simple to create to see the effect we are seeing especially buried in potting. This is definitely a step in the right direction, but for research sake we need to make sure we do not make gross assumptions especially ones that break the laws of science. Please correct me if this is not fair correct info as I do not want to add to misinformation either……as usual GREAT work Frank…too bad you aren’t being paid hourly!!! haha

    • Ged

      You are correct. That is a great summary assessment.

      A couple points though: The self charging appears higher than most know energy harvesters, at least those of engineering in the public domain. However, the recharging is still lower than Steorn claims.
      Also, the Orbo effect could just be a new energy harvesting effect, so I certainly don’t think it is breaking any scientific laws, though it may be new science (or rather a spin on known effects).

      • Alex Fenrick

        Good Points as well Ged…I would just add to your points…while the self charging appears to be higher than most known energy harvesters…I believe it is far lower than what could be achieved by a hidden high capacity battery especially one that employs time-release catalyst when looking at how much total energy we have seen over the testing period. Also I mentioned Orbo breaking the laws of science because according to Steorn this device “speeds up and slows down electromagnetic fields” as opposed to pointing to known energy harvesting methods or derivative ..they pretty much state it does something that is impossible as we know it today by all measures of science. Just figured I would lay those perspectives to help those trying to follow as well.

        • Ged

          That is absolutely true. It’ll take awhile to rule the battery possibility out, so we must be cautious.

          Well, I have a suspicion Steorn doesn’t actually know how their device truly works, and are just throwing sciency sounding things out there. “Speeding up” or “slowing down” electromagnetic fields doesn’t actually make any sense. I have no doubt it’s an entirely different mechanism than they said there.

          You are doing a great job!

          • vibrator !

            @Alex – fair say, although some of us here are ex-Spudders, and already know it’s real and understand the operating principle (classical CoE doesn’t apply to interactions exploiting passive time-dependent changes in field density).

            So if we’re mostly spectating, it’s cos we already know the coo (well, i do, and probably Greg D., and Frank too..)

            Shaun Mc. has always cautioned against ‘believing’ – skepticism = sanity.. But the fundamental concept is pretty straightforward; if a force varies in time freely, of it’s own accord… that’s free PE.

          • gdaigle

            @vibrator! Agreed. I was firmly hooked on Steorn once they shared their first third party report from a qualified engineer, confirming their discovery. That was almost a decade ago. We members of the SKDB/SPDC (Spudders) were much like posters here, not only posting tens of thousands of comments over 4 years but also attempting replications. Steorn never released enough information for successful replications but we never stopped trying. Many just ran out of steam or patience. All of us who have been through the ups and downs (mostly downs) with Orbo would like to see confirmation, vindication and closure. But Steorn has its unique “lone wolf” way of doing things — so we wait.

          • I just want closure. The “lone wolf” way of doing things rubs me the wrong way and doesn’t make sense. It feels like a scam that won’t die. It seems like if they really had something they would have been able to prove it and present it by now but instead we have random testing being done by a random internet blogger.

          • gdaigle

            I will say that the approach Steorn has taken now with the public is very different than past sharing of information with SKDB members. Members under their NDA were given reams of data, tests performed by Steorn were very collaborative and data outputs were shared freely when testing previous iterations of their technology (hard magnet rotor, electromagnetic rotor with cancelling of CEMF, solid state components). The NDAs have long expired, but former members still feel a sense of loyalty that has kept most of that information from public scrutiny (not that I think releasing it would change anybody’s mind here).

            People here may not know that Steorn paid for dozens of interactive e-learning modules to be developed showing the basics of physics for magnets and explaining the “Orbo” effect. These were very well designed and you just don’t do that for a closed audience like the SKDB unless you really think you have something and want people to know how it works. That would not be a reasonable action if they were a scam.

          • Alex Fenrick

            Vibrator….you mention you “already know it’s real”. Just curious as to how you came to this conclusion as it is common knowledge that every single test and analysis that has been done on anything Steorn has ever created has been a 100% complete failure over the past 15 years since day one. I am still hanging in here as I believe we are in the 11th hour of Steorn having to either s#it or get off the pot as they say…being that they have gone from R&D to actually claiming a working product. Frank is finding some interesting anomolies that could just as easily be a hidden battery as anything else…so I am curious how you KNOW it is real. Either way I do respect your perspective as I recall a time many many years ago where I had more faith the skepticism…but Steorn has done a fabulous job over the years to tip the scale to more skepticism than faith for most of its followers. In all honesty if this round of Orbo devices fails the way 100% of the rest of them have…then it is finally time for me to get off this train. I am going to hang in there to see what they do with this “controller chip issue” though…if it turns into another magical problem then I think we need to finally call a spade a spade.

          • DrD

            I agree, all that (Alex and Ged) is a very fair summary.

    • Obvious

      Make your own never die charger. Instructions here.
      (Video starts at the important part)

      https://youtu.be/hyawSVq9lCM?t=524

  • Frank Acland

    For information: the weight of the orbo pack is now 48 g. I have been doing a little scraping and smoothing of the potting resin with a blade, and managed to relieve the pack of about 1g worth of epoxy.

    • FC

      Good job, Frank. I’m sure many people here will ask you to continue carving out the resin. 🙂

      I have now added some charts to the spreadsheet. Hope you like them.

      • FC

        Btw, this is Google Sheets, so the charts a pretty basic in some respects.

      • DrD

        Nice work FC.
        BTW, it looks like it could achieve a steady state energy production of just below 1mW, maybe about 0.5mW (hard to say exactly). 1mW is the lowest Frank’s tried so far. Your charts seem to agree with that.
        Doing it in “fits and starts” it has generated about 36mWh over ~109hrs which is an average of 0.3mW.

        • Andreas Moraitis

          Oops, with 0.5 mW output power you would have to run the device for 2000 days to reach the above mentioned 24 Wh.

          • DrD

            Haha, yes I did that calculation (week one I think). Some were trying to do the confirmation then and I think I estimated about 2 years based on a higher mW rating. It was the original Ocube which did work better at first.

    • Alex Fenrick

      Keep going Frank!!! A Dremel does wonders to that potting!!! lol

    • Andreas Moraitis

      If we want to be very conservative we can take the energy densitiy of a non-rechargeable Li battery (1.8 MJ/kg) as a basis:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density

      That would give 24 Wh from 48g. To be still more conservative we could add the possible gain from energy harvesting. You would have to know the volume of the device and the duration of the test to calculate it. But I think it will be negligible in comparison to the above value.

    • DrD

      Last night I dragged 6 stone flags up out of our basement. About 100 to 200kg each. I counted 42 left. So you have my admiration Frank, keep going.
      Hope you appreciate the humour.

  • John A

    While removing a few grams of the potting rasin will slightly reduce the weight, it will be of little use for revealing the true components. Assumimg that Steorn is not going to send you an un-potted replacement unit, the xraying still looks like a quick and painless option, although xray images also are subject to interpretation. Why dont you get a quote from your nearest vet or medical outfit ( use the yellow pages!) , post the result here, and if cost is an issue, I’m sure you could “crowdfund” the amount from curious readers of this site.

  • kenko1

    Since day 1, with the receipt of the orbo and ophone power pack how many AA,AAA, tablets & cell batteries/calls have been charged with said devices?

    • Frank Acland

      I’ve given up testing on the Ocube for now. It definitely doesn’t function as it should. This cell in the Orbo pack is the only thing that seems to be showing any promise.

      • Frank Acland

        And I haven’t been trying to charge anything with it — just measuring power output with resistors.

        • DrD

          Which is more sensible, more quantitive

      • Andreas Moraitis

        If you do not plan further tests on the OCube, why don’t you put it into a bucket with thinner? This would likely kill the remaining cells, but we might at least be able to reconstruct a circuit diagram.

        • Frank Acland

          I haven’t discounted further testing on the ocube. It has orbo cells in it which I don’t want to kill. I think maybe, like the orbo pack, it may have an internal drain. Anyway if I can find a friendly xray tech, I’ll take both units along.

          • Sanjeev

            The ocube is shielded by metal, the x-ray will be just a flat circle. It will be necessary to remove the metal casing first, which I think will be difficult.

          • Alex Fenrick

            The metal case could actually be machined off quickly and easily even on an ancient mill.

          • Sanjeev

            Of course. But it will be so much easier if steorn simply sends a pack of orbos to Frank. Perhaps on condition that it will be returned in one piece after the test.

          • Alex Fenrick

            Agreed Sanjeev….but do you think they will actually do that? Seems that Steorn has gone completely underground at this point. No more facebook updates or even comments, in fact the facebook page is now locked I believe. No working Ophones out there anymore, and no office phone response at Steorn either. They are doing a pretty good job of looking extremely shady at this point by their own accord. The investors must rightfully be livid at this point. Hopefully Shaun will pop his head back above ground at some point to at least tell us something beyond that letter that went out…a letter that most of us predicted would come as a delay. It is getting just as interesting on the business/administrative/product side of this whole situation as is the technical side…

          • Sanjeev

            Well thats business as usual for steorn. We all know its never a straight situation there, so lets wait and watch, nothing else can be done.

  • I was curious if the ORBO and Ophone were still on sale given the issues and found that the site is not online anymore and you get an error page.

    Is this new or has it been like this?

    • Frank Acland

      It’s new since last time I checked the site. Reads like they haven’t got working products ready to ship yet.

      • gdaigle

        It is back up now.

        • Frank Acland

          Both products say “sold out”

    • gdaigle

      That is disturbing… or maybe they are about to say something important. Anyway, the facebook site is still active: https://www.facebook.com/thebatteryisdead/

      • Matt

        The only activity on their facebook site is that they are still buying thousands of new Likes daily from Pakistan, ridiculous.

      • Frank Acland

        Orbo.com is their webstore, and they don’t have anything to sell at the moment according to their last communication.

    • Sanjeev

      Its working now. Perhaps the hosting payment was not done on time. They are either very busy with something or hiding in a bunker somewhere 😀

  • FC

    Today’s first reading has uncovered a problem with the charts that I was suspecting for a while now. The horizontal axis (aggregate discharge time) is not properly scaled (i.e. the time between equally spaced ticks is not constant). To address this issue, I started preparing and excel version of the spreadsheet, the preliminary charts of which I am enclosing here, but I ran out of time and will have to finish the job at some other time.

    • DrD

      you have my admiraton. I had the same problem, even in excel. Ended up manualy retyping the times.

      • FC

        Thanks, Dave. But I haven’t got it right yet. Yes, showing time durations correctly can be quite tricky. I think I’ll get it right as soon as I find another half hour to work on it. In the meantime, please bear with me. 🙂

      • gdaigle

        This still has some interesting similarities to materials exhibiting a quantum Hall effect. There is a special class of states for the electrons called Landau levels, and depending of the occupancy of the Landau levels, a new macroscopic phenomenon similar to superconductivity can set in: the Quantum Hall Effect, which is a strange quantum phenomenon that can be observed if the current is constrained to a very thin sheet.
        Source: http://backreaction.blogspot.com/2007/12/quantum-hall-effect.html

        [Image Source: K. v. Klitzing, G. Dorda, M. Pepper: New Method for High-Accuracy Determination of the Fine-Structure Constant Based on Quantized Hall Resistance, Phys. Rev. Lett. 45 (1980) 494-497, Figure 1.]

        • Andreas Moraitis

          The steps in the diagrams might just be a result of different configurations in the particular phases of the test. Maybe FC could clarify that.

          • FC

            The steps are the resistance values used by Frank in each discharge test. It just happens that he started using “smaller” resistors and has been increasing them progressively. And since the resistance remains constant during each discharge test, that’s why the line looks like a series of stepped plateaus.

            As for the spikes, they represent the instantaneous power output, which is highest at the beginning of each test (when the core’s voltage is highest), and lowest when the tests ends. And since the tests are shown consecutively (ignoring the self-charge phase between tests), that’s why that line has spikes. Otherwise, that line would look very much like Shaun’s waveform.

            Maybe I’ll draw one when I find some time, to show you what I mean.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            Thanks FC, that was exactly my guess.

          • Frank Acland

            I’m wondering if it matters that much what value of resistors are used. Lower value resistors give a lot of energy initially, then diminish quickly. A higher value resistor gives less energy initially but gives a more constant output. Wouldn’t things average out to about the same over hours?

          • FC

            That’s a very good question, Frank. In the end, it probably depends on the duration of the self-charge phase for each case. I will look at the numbers more closely and come back to you on that.

          • Preston

            Running it long term with a higher output voltage (lower load) seems like it might be better. A higher load pulling the voltage really low might not be great for the cell long term. The 10K seems pretty good but if 20K allowed the voltage to climb closer to 5V, that might be even better.

          • Frank Acland

            Thanks Preston. I’m that concerned about damaging the cell. If we get to 5 V then we run the risk of activating the voltage controller, but I’m not too worried about that because I don’t think we’ll hit 5V without a bias input. I think I’ll put a 20k Ohm on for a while and see what happens.

          • Sanjeev

            You are right Frank. A low R will simply drain the energy quickly producing more watts, while a high R will take more time and less watts to drain the same energy.

            If you assume that the orbo produces a fixed amount of energy per day (because it needs to rest and accumulate the charge), then no matter what R you use, you can’t extract more energy than its max energy.

            A low R is better, as it will allow you to do more discharge cycles per day ( a guess).

          • Frank Acland

            Another way to think about this testing is this: can we test if the orbo cell behaves differently from the best battery. For example the number of full discharges it can handle, or the speed of recharging after discharge, etc.

          • Sanjeev

            Good idea.
            Discharge a brand new Li battery to 0 and check if it rebounds to similar voltages as the orbo. And how many times it rebounds before its completely dead.
            However, it needs to be carefully done, because a battery can cause explosions.

          • gdaigle

            Makes sense.

  • DrD

    Just a curious thought—–
    The voltage is leveling off so I wonder what would happen if the 9.78k were doubled to about 20k?
    Would it continue to fall or might it start to rise again?

  • DrD

    Just a curious thought—–
    The voltage is leveling off so I wonder what would happen if the 9.78k were doubled (temporarily) to about 20k?
    Would it continue to fall or might it start to rise again?

  • Frank Acland

    It’s new since last time I checked the site. Reads like they haven’t got working products ready to ship yet.

    • gdaigle

      It is back up now.

      • Frank Acland

        Both products say “sold out”

  • gdaigle

    I will say that the approach Steorn has taken now with the public is very different than past sharing of information with SKDB members. Members under their NDA were given reams of data, tests performed by Steorn were very collaborative and data outputs were shared freely when testing previous iterations of their technology (hard magnet rotor, electromagnetic rotor with cancelling of CEMF, solid state components). The NDAs have long expired, but former members still feel a sense of loyalty that has kept most of that information from public scrutiny (not that I think releasing it would change anybody’s mind here).

    People here may not know that Steorn paid for dozens of interactive e-learning modules to be developed showing the basics of physics for magnets and explaining the “Orbo” effect. These were very well designed and you just don’t do that for a closed audience like the SKDB unless you really think you have something and want people to know how it works. That would not be a reasonable action if they were a scam.

  • gdaigle

    That is disturbing… or maybe they are about to say something important. Anyway, the facebook site is still active: https://www.facebook.com/thebatteryisdead/

    • Matt

      The only activity on their facebook site is that they are still buying thousands of new Likes daily from Pakistan, ridiculous.

    • Frank Acland

      Orbo.com is their webstore, and they don’t have anything to sell at the moment according to their last communication.

  • Who here has experience with potting electronics. It seems Frank’s O devices are potted in some hard black material, likely epoxy? Here’s a snippet about such potting material to get your ‘little grey cells’ working.. “When potting RF circuitry the potting resin can introduce capacitance effects between conductors on the printed circuit board and alter unacceptably the characteristics of the circuit.” Anyone with experience in potted electronics to which x-ray opacity agents like barium sulfide have been added, what sort of impact might this have on an x-ray.

    • Obvious

      Russ,
      A lot of automotive electronics, especially aftermarket, are potted in similar-looking stuff. Generally this is waterproofing as much as reverse-engineering prevention. Most that I have taken apart have been lacquered (or similar) before the potting was applied. This doesn’t help much in getting the goop out, though, since the potting usually seems to get between and under components in such a way that they are pulled from the circuit board no matter how gently and careful one tries to be when removing the epoxy. The potting seems to stick only weakly to the lacquer, so I have had some minor successes.

      If there is barium or whatever in the epoxy to help block x-rays, well then Steorn may have had some good advice from someone.

      • Regarding good advice to use x-ray opaque additives such advice is only a few seconds away from the all knowing global brain so wonderfully indexed by internet search engines!

        • Obvious

          Well, if Steorn wasn’t given the good advice before (or Googled it), they have been given it now.

          • Sanjeev

            Nothing, absolutely nothing can prevent reverse engineering. How come steorn doesn’t know that?
            Their device is so simple, even a kid can hack it.

          • Obvious

            Obviously anyone determined enough will get into it.
            But if they wreck it, and it was clearly from tampering, then warranty is void.
            Nothing says clearly tampering like ground up and picked apart epoxy.

          • Sanjeev

            Simply buy two. Destroy one.
            And some big corporation bent on mass production won’t really worry about the warranty. Or even a small manufacturer in china for that matter. Its cheap from that angle.

          • Obvious

            Corporations or companies of course won’t wince at losing a warranty.
            Just the Curious Georges might balk at messing with it or suffer a total loss on it on their dime (lots of dimes).

            Hopefully Steorn or their tech source has some patent protection.
            ..Or they just mass produce at such a low price that competition can’t compete….

          • Sanjeev

            Right. Thats the only way. Potting and hiding stuff is not the way.

          • Obvious

            I’m not convinced that potting it was (the main reason) to hide anything anyways.
            Keeping moisture out and shock proofing it a bit are good reasons to pot it in epoxy, though.
            Maybe to hide the OEM of the innards, too.

          • Sanjeev

            Yes, possible.

          • Frank Acland

            I think potting may not have been the problem now. Seems like Steorn have found a controller has been causing both overcharging and undercharging. Undercharging is what we have seen in both units.

          • Sanjeev

            Hopefully it was not the potting that caused the controller to malfunction. Anyway, we are just speculating about the motivation behind their decision to get it potted.

  • Who here has experience with potting electronics. It seems Frank’s O devices are potted in some hard black material, likely epoxy? Here’s a snippet about such potting material to get your ‘little grey cells’ working.. “When potting RF circuitry the potting resin can introduce capacitance effects between conductors on the printed circuit board and alter unacceptably the characteristics of the circuit.” Anyone with experience in potted electronics to which x-ray opacity agents like barium sulfide have been added, what sort of impact might this have on an x-ray.

    • Obvious

      Russ,
      A lot of automotive electronics, especially aftermarket, are potted in similar-looking stuff. Generally this is waterproofing as much as reverse-engineering prevention. Most that I have taken apart have been lacquered (or similar) before the potting was applied. This doesn’t help much in getting the goop out, though, since the potting usually seems to get between and under components in such a way that they are pulled from the circuit board no matter how gently and careful one tries to be when removing the epoxy. The potting seems to stick only weakly to the lacquer, so I have had some minor successes.

      If there is barium or whatever in the epoxy to help block x-rays, well then Steorn may have had some good advice from someone.

      • Regarding good advice to use x-ray opaque additives such advice is only a few seconds away from the all knowing global brain so wonderfully indexed by internet search engines!

        • Obvious

          Well, if Steorn wasn’t given the good advice before (or Googled it), they have been given it now.

          • Sanjeev

            Nothing, absolutely nothing can prevent reverse engineering. How come steorn doesn’t know that?
            Their device is so simple, even a kid can hack it.

          • Obvious

            Obviously anyone determined enough will get into it.
            But if they wreck it, and it was clearly from tampering, then the warranty is void.
            Nothing says clearly tampering like ground up and picked apart epoxy.

          • Sanjeev

            Simply buy two. Destroy one.
            And some big corporation bent on mass production won’t really worry about the warranty. Or even a small manufacturer in china for that matter. Its cheap from that angle.

          • Obvious

            Corporations or companies of course won’t wince at losing a warranty.
            Just the Curious Georges might balk at messing with it or suffer a total loss on it on their dime (lots of dimes).

            Hopefully Steorn or their tech source has some patent protection.
            ..Or they just mass produce at such a low price that competition can’t compete….

          • Sanjeev

            Right. Thats the only way. Potting and hiding stuff is not the way.

          • Obvious

            I’m not convinced that potting it was (the main reason) to hide anything anyways.
            Keeping moisture out and shock proofing it a bit are good reasons to pot it in epoxy, though.
            Maybe to hide the OEM of the innards, too.

          • Sanjeev

            Yes, possible.

          • Frank Acland

            I think potting may not have been the problem now. Seems like Steorn have found a controller has been causing both overcharging and undercharging. Undercharging is what we have seen in both units.

          • Sanjeev

            Hopefully it was not the potting that caused the controller to malfunction. Anyway, we are just speculating about the motivation behind their decision to get it potted.

  • Sanjeev

    Its working now. Perhaps the hosting payment was not done on time. They are either very busy with something or hiding in a bunker somewhere 😀

  • Sanjeev

    Here is an orbo test duration calculator :
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1SmmDLw9-g_Mamtk7qloWEeWNacHwEBpXxdwdTXnAZpc/edit?ts=56c4cc64#gid=246518164

    According to FC’s calc, it generated 61 Joules on 30th and took whole day. With that rate it may take 2 years for the test to finish. But it can charge a phone battery in only 11 months. 😉
    Thanks Andreas Moraitis for your cross checks.

  • Sanjeev

    Here is an orbo test duration calculator :
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UBIA4JTDb_kBwoytR9LP7OP7tH63yUeiPn2kKye4frY/edit?ts=56fd923d#gid=1387541207

    According to FC’s calc, it generated 61 Joules on 30th-31st and took whole day. With that rate it may take 2 years for the test to finish. But it can charge a phone battery in only 11 months. 😉
    Thanks Andreas Moraitis for your cross checks.
    Edit : new link

  • SG

    Thanks to the combined efforts of many (although with special thanks to Frank), we are really starting to see some interesting data, both in raw and graph formats. I’ve thought some more about the current state of testing. We are observing what appears to be anomalous self-charging, but as has been pointed out before, a battery and RC circuit could imitate what we are seeing. And at this rate, it will take a very long time to rule out the battery (Sanjeev estimates 2 years).

    We need a faster approach to get to confirmation. We know that external electric fields ought to enhance the self-recharge effect, based on information provided by Steorn, and the hypothesis that the domains need some help in getting back into alignment. I suggest that we re-apply the external electric field, with a 1Mohm resistor in series (so as to avoid tainting our energy measurements in any significant way). We have an Orbo cell that we think is behaving more or less as expected–just need the domains to align more quickly after each discharge, and therefore speed up our ability to confirm Orbo.

    • Sanjeev

      I was thinking exactly the same. To perform any practical tests, it needs to output more energy.
      However, Franks thinks it will trigger the voltage controller and will drain out the reference orbo. It needs to be seen if it does actually do that.
      If it does, then the only way is to get an xray done and drill at a place where there wires connect to the controller and cut them off. (If the xray shows any such wires).

      • SG

        Perhaps we could design the test so that we do not exceed 4V, thereby avoiding triggering the voltage controller. The test could be a series of longer-term continuous discharges with say a 20Kohm DUT, which should allow Frank some significant breaks inbetween re-charges. The re-charges would need to be watched carefully, but no real harm if the voltage controller accidentally and occasionally triggers due to voltage creeping above the threshold–it won’t be counted in the sum of energy.

        • Sanjeev

          If you check the old readings, O1-2 kept dropping even after the voltage went below 4V. That is with the external bias on and a low R on O3-4. That is there is no self charging of reference cells in those conditions.
          If you add an external bias right now, it will be the same as before. (Most probably). But it can be tried.

          • SG

            I took a look back through the data. Most previous tests are with O3-4 voltage greater than 4V. The recent tests are below 4V. I don’t think the following combination has been tried:

            O3-4: low R
            O1-2: keep below 4v
            + bias circuit with 1 9V battery and 1Mohm resistor

          • Frank Acland

            No, I think you are right. We could certainly try it.

          • FC

            Just a quick comment. When using a bias, we need to keep track of the energy input, which means that you need to log equally frequent voltage readings during the recharge phase (unless we assume the lowest O1-O2 voltage for the whole phase). I already have the necessary spreadsheet ready. But it’s more work for you, Frank. 24/7 🙂

          • FC

            Sorry, that should be the “highest” O1-O2 voltage reading, for the worst case scenario (highest energy input).

          • Frank Acland

            Thanks — it shouldn’t be much different. But there may be some gaps in the record on occasions.

          • FC

            Agreed.

          • SG

            The energy input during recharge will be minuscule if we stick with the 1Mohm resistor, because the current input will be about 9 microamps. I don’t even think we need to track it. It is essentially noise in terms of energy input.

          • FC

            It’s true that the input power may be two orders of magnitude lower than the output power (~10 uW vs. 1 mW, or the equivalent of 1%). But since the recharge phase can sometimes last one order of magnitude more than the discharge phase, that means that the energy input can end up being just one order of magnitude lower than the energy output (the equivalent of 10%). And that, to me, is not negligible anymore. 🙂

          • SG

            Touche. Although we are hoping that with the bias circuit, the recharge phase will be shorter than it has been recently. Certainly it would be better to track energy in as well.

          • Sanjeev

            Great. If you live somewhere near Frank’s place, you may be able to help.

          • Sanjeev

            Ya, the chances look better this time.
            You can use the power supply too. Just be careful about polarity.

  • SG

    Thanks to the combined efforts of many (although with special thanks to Frank), we are really starting to see some interesting data, both in raw and graph formats. I’ve thought some more about the current state of testing. We are observing what appears to be anomalous self-charging, but as has been pointed out before, a battery and RC circuit could imitate what we are seeing. And at this rate, it will take a very long time to rule out the battery (Sanjeev estimates 2 years).

    We need a faster approach to get to confirmation. We know that external electric fields ought to enhance the self-recharge effect, based on information provided by Steorn, and the hypothesis that the domains need some help in getting back into alignment. I suggest that we re-apply the external electric field, with a 1Mohm resistor in series (so as to avoid tainting our energy measurements in any significant way). We have an Orbo cell that we think is behaving more or less as expected–just need the domains to align more quickly after each discharge, and therefore speed up our ability to confirm Orbo.

    • Sanjeev

      I was thinking exactly the same. To perform any practical tests, it needs to output more energy.
      However, Franks thinks it will trigger the voltage controller and will drain out the reference orbo. It needs to be seen if it does actually do that.
      If it does, then the only way is to get an xray done and drill at a place where the wires connect to the controller and cut them off. (If the xray shows any such wires).

      • SG

        Perhaps we could design the test so that we do not exceed 4V, thereby avoiding triggering the voltage controller. The test could be a series of longer-term continuous discharges with say a 20Kohm DUT, which should allow Frank some significant breaks inbetween re-charges. The re-charges would need to be watched carefully, but no real harm if the voltage controller accidentally and occasionally triggers due to voltage creeping above the threshold–it won’t be counted in the sum of energy.

        • Sanjeev

          If you check the old readings, O1-2 kept dropping even after the voltage went below 4V. That is with the external bias on and a low R on O3-4. That is there is no self charging of reference cells in those conditions.
          If you add an external bias right now, it will be the same as before. (Most probably). But it can be tried.

          • SG

            I took a look back through the data. Most previous tests are with O3-4 voltage greater than 4V. The recent tests are below 4V. I don’t think the following combination has been tried:

            O3-4: low R
            O1-2: keep below 4v
            + bias circuit with 1 9V battery and 1Mohm resistor

          • Frank Acland

            No, I think you are right. We could certainly try it.

          • FC

            Just a quick comment. When using a bias, we need to keep track of the energy input, which means that you need to log equally frequent voltage readings during the recharge phase (unless we assume the lowest O1-O2 voltage for the whole phase). I already have the necessary spreadsheet ready. But it’s more work for you, Frank. 24/7 🙂

          • FC

            Sorry, that should be the “highest” O1-O2 voltage reading, for the worst case scenario (highest energy input).

          • Frank Acland

            Thanks — it shouldn’t be much different. But there may be some gaps in the record on occasions.

          • FC

            Agreed.

          • SG

            The energy input during recharge will be minuscule if we stick with the 1Mohm resistor, because the current input will be about 2 to 9 microamps. I don’t even think we need to track it. It is essentially noise in terms of energy input.

          • FC

            It’s true that the input power may be two orders of magnitude lower than the output power (~10 uW vs. 1 mW, or the equivalent of 1%). But since the recharge phase can sometimes last one order of magnitude more than the discharge phase, that means that the energy input can end up being just one order of magnitude lower than the energy output (the equivalent of 10%). And that, to me, is not negligible anymore. 🙂

          • SG

            Touche. Although we are hoping that with the bias circuit, the recharge phase will be shorter than it has been recently. Certainly it would be better to track energy in as well.

          • Sanjeev

            Ya, the chances look better this time.
            You can use the power supply too. Just be careful about polarity.

  • Alex Fenrick

    Frank forgive me if this has been mentioned before, but have you been able to measure the electromagnetic field around the device during charging and discharging? Even though the actual measurement data made would be rather arbitrary by itself, it could maybe be compared to that of a similar battery charging setup. Even a microcontroller like an atmega could give you close enough relative numbers for comparison. I have built and programmed one on an atmega328p in about an hour for frame of reference if you are looking for another fun test lol. Just throwing out suggestions at this point.

    • Frank Acland

      No I haven’t been able to do that — don’t have the equipment on hand unfortunately for this test. Although it does sound interesting.

  • Frank Acland

    No I haven’t been able to do that — don’t have the equipment on hand unfortunately for this test. Although it does sound interesting.

  • FC

    Thanks, Preston. That’s a smart solution.

  • Frank Acland

    It looks like we could have hit close to an equilibrium point. 22k Ohm resistor is keeping the voltage close to 3.07 Volts

    • Frank Acland

      At about 0.4 mW

      • FC

        Yes, we are getting close. 🙂

        • Frank Acland

          Interesting, just as you think you’ve hit a plateau — it drops a little. I’ve seen that before at various levels of voltage and resistance.

          • FC

            I was just doing a quick calculation. This series of tests have been going on for 132 hours approximately. In that time, the orbo core has delivered roughly 49 mWh. That means that its average self-charge rate is around 0.37 mW. No wonder it is almost plateauing at around 0.4 mW.

          • FC

            If you discharge the core from 3.5V through a ~33k Ohm resistor, it may well stay at 3.5V indefinitely.

          • Frank Acland

            Cool — we could leave it and come back in two years!

          • FC

            Lol. Exactly! Maybe by that time Steorn have finished redesigning their products. 🙂

          • FC

            Btw, going back to your question about the resistance that will yield the highest energy output per day, empirically speaking, your most productive day so far was March 29, when you ran two tests with a 4.7k Ohm resistor and one test with a 10k Ohm resistor. That day you extracted almost 15 mWh from the core, versus 3-13 mWh for the rest of the days. So apparently, high resistances work the better. But you may still want to try just how many low resistance discharges you can fit in a day, since quick discharges usually generate quick bounce backs (as the more skeptical members of this community will surely remind us).

          • Andreas Moraitis

            I would leave it untouched for a while (maybe two weeks), starting from the supposed equilibrium state. If there is no battery inside and the device does not collect or generate significant amounts of energy, you would see the voltage drop. After that test, you could still try the other options (bias voltage etc.) if you like.

          • DrD

            I hate to say it but it rather looks like the plateau is slowly getting lower as the days pass. Hope I’m wrong.

          • FC

            In the last 24 hours, the average self-charge rate has been 0.46 mW. But of course, that rate is affected among other things by voltage levels throughout the sample period and energy extraction, or under-extraction, as the core may not accumulate much energy beyond a certain voltage – or dipole order – level.

            Personally, I suspect that the self-charge rate is greater without a load than with a load. So the quest for an equilibrium output under load may be a tricky venture. But we’ll never know unless we try.

          • Frank Acland

            The more we discharge the cell, the slower the recharge seems to be. It seems to me, just from my observations, that the longer you leave it to recharge, the more power it gets.

    • Ged

      Good to see it is still kicking!

    • gary

      Now that it is in equilibrium, put the device in a faraday cage and see if it maintains equilibrium.

      • Frank Acland

        Equilibrium is proving to be elusive so far. Haven’t yet seen it stabilize over a reasonable length of time.

  • Frank Acland

    It looks like we could have hit close to an equilibrium point. 22k Ohm resistor is keeping the voltage close to 3.07 Volts

    • Frank Acland

      At about 0.4 mW

      • FC

        Yes, we are getting close. 🙂

        • Frank Acland

          Interesting, just as you think you’ve hit a plateau — it drops a little. I’ve seen that before at various levels of voltage and resistance.

          • FC

            I was just doing a quick calculation. This series of tests have been going on for 132 hours approximately. In that time, the orbo core has delivered roughly 49 mWh. That means that its average self-charge rate is around 0.37 mW. No wonder it is almost plateauing at around 0.4 mW.

          • FC

            If you discharge the core from 3.5V through a ~33k Ohm resistor, it may well stay at 3.5V indefinitely.

          • Frank Acland

            Cool — we could leave it and come back in two years!

          • FC

            Lol. Exactly! Maybe by that time Steorn have finished redesigning their products. 🙂

          • FC

            Btw, going back to your question about the resistance that will yield the highest energy output per day, empirically speaking, your most productive day so far was March 29, when you ran two tests with a 4.7k Ohm resistor and one test with a 10k Ohm resistor. That day you extracted almost 15 mWh from the core, versus 3-13 mWh for the rest of the days. So apparently, high resistances work the better. But you may still want to try just how many low resistance discharges you can fit in a day, since quick discharges usually generate quick bounce backs (as the more skeptical members of this community will surely remind us).

          • Andreas Moraitis

            I would leave it untouched for a while (maybe two weeks), starting from the supposed equilibrium state. If there is no battery inside and the device does not collect or generate significant amounts of energy, you would see the voltage drop. After that test, you could still try the other options (bias voltage etc.) if you like.

          • DrD

            I hate to say it but it rather looks like the plateau is slowly getting lower as the days pass. Hope I’m wrong.

          • FC

            In the last 24 hours, the average self-charge rate has been 0.46 mW. But of course, that rate is affected among other things by voltage levels throughout the sample period and energy extraction, or under-extraction, as the core may not accumulate much energy beyond a certain voltage – or dipole order – level.

            Personally, I suspect that the self-charge rate is greater without a load than with a load. So the quest for an equilibrium output under load may be a tricky venture. But we’ll never know unless we try.

          • Frank Acland

            The more we discharge the cell, the slower the recharge seems to be. It seems to me, just from my observations, that the longer you leave it to recharge, the more power it gets.

    • Ged

      Good to see it is still kicking!

    • gary

      Now that it is in equilibrium, put the device in a faraday cage and see if it maintains equilibrium.

      • Frank Acland

        Equilibrium is proving to be elusive so far. Haven’t yet seen it stabilize over a reasonable length of time.

  • FC

    Here’s a couple of charts.

    The first one shows a real discharge/recharge cycle.

    And the second one shows a series of three consecutive cycles like the one above.

    Doesn’t that resemble Shaun’s waveform?

    • Frank Acland

      Yes, that is similar to what he showed on the scope. That was with orbo cells under load though.

      • FC

        I know, Frank. But since the differences between reality and Shaun’s claims are so big, I thought I’d show some similarities, in spite of the differences. 🙂

        • Frank Acland

          BTW I haven’t forgotten about putting on the bias cell, I will do it later today. Right now I have ~32k ohms on to see if we can get a balance.

        • Might you present some context comparisons on the 3 data domains, the present test results, potential harvest of energy via ‘electret’ or other mechanisms, and Steorn’s claims… It would be interesting to see a table with all three side by side. Heck even a bar chart might be telling.

    • Zephir

      This graph shows, that the input and output currents are identical, i.e. no free energy is produced.

  • FC

    Here’s a couple of charts.

    The first one shows a real discharge/recharge cycle.

    And the second one shows a series of three consecutive cycles like the one above.

    Doesn’t that resemble Shaun’s waveform?

    • Frank Acland

      Yes, that is similar to what he showed on the scope. That was with orbo cells under load though.

      • FC

        I know, Frank. But since the differences between reality and Shaun’s claims are so big, I thought I’d show some similarities, in spite of the differences. 🙂

        • Frank Acland

          BTW I haven’t forgotten about putting on the bias cell, I will do it later today. Right now I have ~32k ohms on to see if we can get a balance.

        • Might you present some context comparisons on the 3 data domains, the present test results, potential harvest of energy via ‘electret’ or other mechanisms, and Steorn’s claims… It would be interesting to see a table with all three side by side. Heck even a bar chart might be telling.

  • Frank Acland

    I had a bit of a mishap. I was getting set up to put the 9V battery circuit on and I attached a lead to the terminal without the resistor on for a moment. It pushed the voltage above 4 V I need to let things settle down before continuing. Sorry!

    • Andreas Moraitis

      One additional remark on testing, if you don’t mind. My guess is still that the apparent ‘self-charging’ happens by a transfer of internally stored energy, may it come from a battery, the second Orbo cell or (less likely) a capacitor. For a clean test you should wait until an internal equilibrium is reached, that is, until the voltage does not rise any more. Attaching the load earlier would reduce the meaningfulness of the test. So my proposal is the following (after you have solved the overvoltage problem):

      1 – Let the cell ‘self-recharge’ until the voltage has stabilized.
      2 – Attach the load.
      3 – Remove the load, then wait and see if the voltage rises until or above the value that it had before the load was attached.

      • Andreas Moraitis

        P.S.: This test should be made without the bias voltage circuit, for obvious reasons.

    • DrD

      Probably won’t have done any harm. Might even have shocked a few domains back into alignment. I suppose it’s added an unknown amount of charge. Hopefully the control chip hasn’t kicked in either.

  • Frank Acland

    I had a bit of a mishap. I was getting set up to put the 9V battery circuit on and I attached a lead to the terminal without the resistor on for a moment. It pushed the voltage above 4 V I need to let things settle down before continuing. Sorry!

    • Andreas Moraitis

      One additional remark on testing, if you don’t mind. My guess is still that the apparent ‘self-charging’ happens by a transfer of internally stored energy, may it come from a battery, the second Orbo cell or (less likely) a capacitor. For a clean test you should wait until an internal equilibrium is reached, that is, until the voltage does not rise any more. Attaching the load earlier would reduce the meaningfulness of the test. So my proposal is the following (after you have solved the overvoltage problem):

      1 – Let the cell ‘self-recharge’ until the voltage has stabilized.
      2 – Attach the load.
      3 – Remove the load, then wait and see if the voltage rises until or above the value that it had before the load was attached.

      • Andreas Moraitis

        P.S.: This test should be made without the bias voltage circuit, for obvious reasons.

    • DrD

      Probably won’t have done any harm. Might even have shocked a few domains back into alignment. I suppose it’s added an unknown amount of charge. Hopefully the control chip hasn’t kicked in either.

  • Frank Acland

    Ok this afternoon after leaving the cell for overnight and this morning I put on the bias circuit: 9V battery and 1M Ohm resistor, and I’ve started tracking data: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UBIA4JTDb_kBwoytR9LP7OP7tH63yUeiPn2kKye4frY/edit#gid=0

    • Sanjeev

      Some quick discharge/charge tests will show if there is any improvement in energy production and self charging. Right now its stable at 3.5V I guess.

      • FC

        I’m afraid that compared to previous tests, we are getting worse results during the discharge phase. Let’s wait for the results of the charge phase. But it doesn’t look promising at the moment.

        • Frank Acland

          Thanks for doing the analysis, FC — the spreadsheet looks great. I’m going to do the last reading of the day and check back in the morning!

          • FC

            Thank you, Frank. See you tomorrow.

          • DrD

            Great SS!

          • FC

            Thank you, Dave.

        • Sanjeev

          Its strange, but I guess we need to repeat a few times to be sure.

    • FC

      I have updated the spreadsheet accordingly.

      • Frank Acland

        Thanks, FC . I’m away from home atm, but will try a discharge test later tonight if I am able.

    • Andreas Moraitis

      The energy that you feed into the cell by the bias voltage circuit is most probably not negligible, given the tiny output of the cell. For example, if the cell had an inner resistance of 1 kOhm you would still supply 0.29 mW of power with 17 V across the battery poles and the 1 MOhm resistor in series.

      • DrD

        Hi Andreas, we don’t use the cell resistance (it varies). The power input to the cell is given by VxI as in FC’s spread sheet.
        .

        • Andreas Moraitis

          Right, the cell resistance varies. I did not suggest using it to determine the input – the 1k figure was only an example to demonstrate what order of magnitude of input power one could expect.

          I cannot find current readings in any of the spreadsheets. It seems that sometimes the voltage has been measured across the resistor, which would suffice to calculate the current. But in this case you would also have to know the voltage at the terminals.

          • FC

            The current supplied by the bias circuit is equal to the voltage drop across the bias resistor divided by the resistance. The voltage drop is calculated as the battery’s voltage minus the O1-O2 voltage.

            I didn’t include a column for the current value because it isn’t essential as such, only inasmuch as it allows us to calculate the power input. And that can be done by using the calculation described above as part of the power calculation formula.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            It is correct that you can use either the voltage between the terminals or the battery voltage, provided that you know the voltage across the resistor. But the battery voltage has been measured only occasionally, as far as I remember. Why should one rely on guesses if the work could be done in a more sound way?

          • FC

            As I commented in the “Notes” column, we are assuming that the battery voltage is 9.000V. Having B1-B2 readings as regularly as O1-O2 readings would remove all uncertainty from the input power calculations. But only Frank can do those readings, so it’s up to him.

        • Sanjeev

          I can’t find the current measurement in the SS.

      • Sanjeev

        Right. Its difficult to measure the input energy, as the battery terminal voltage will also vary. The input will also depend on the load (which will vary) and the capacitance (again varies in unknown manner).
        So I suggest to take the entire energy content of 2 x Alkaline batteries as input, at the end of the test. Just add it to the energy equivalence of the black box. It will add just a few more months to the test duration.(at current situation).
        I’ll search for a suitable value, if Franks decides to continue with the biased setup. If it does not work significantly better, just get rid of the bias and make your lives easier.

    • SG

      The answer, I believe, is in the random voltage jumps shown in the data, suspected to be magnetic domains suddenly aligning. My guess is that Sanjeev has examined the data closely and is basing his opinion on that–but can’t speak for him. He is very capable of expressing his own thoughts!

      • Sanjeev

        I’ve posted the analysis in above comment.
        Jumps are interesting, but I left them out. I think if there is a battery and RC circuit inside (or something similar), then we should get very consistent data and should be able to copy that exact behavior using a battery and R and C. If it fails then, there is no battery inside.

      • Sanjeev

        Actually I just realized that the jumps are included in the time duration test. If a jump happens it will take less time to charge compared to the battery hypothesis situation and will be a proof, because battery+RC can’t do that.

  • Frank Acland

    Ok this afternoon after leaving the cell for overnight and this morning I put on the bias circuit: 9V battery and 1M Ohm resistor, and I’ve started tracking data: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UBIA4JTDb_kBwoytR9LP7OP7tH63yUeiPn2kKye4frY/edit#gid=0

    • Sanjeev

      Some quick discharge/charge tests will show if there is any improvement in energy production and self charging. Right now its stable at 3.5V I guess.

      • FC

        I’m afraid that compared to previous tests, we are getting worse results during the discharge phase. Let’s wait for the results of the charge phase. But it doesn’t look promising at the moment.

        • Frank Acland

          Thanks for doing the analysis, FC — the spreadsheet looks great. I’m going to do the last reading of the day and check back in the morning!

          • FC

            Thank you, Frank. See you tomorrow.

          • DrD

            Great SS!

          • FC

            Thank you, Dave.

        • Sanjeev

          Its strange, but I guess we need to repeat a few times to be sure.

    • FC

      I have updated the spreadsheet accordingly.

      • Frank Acland

        Thanks, FC . I’m away from home atm, but will try a discharge test later tonight if I am able.

    • Andreas Moraitis

      The energy that you feed into the cell by the bias voltage circuit is most probably not negligible, given the tiny output of the cell. For example, if the cell had an inner resistance of 1 kOhm you would still supply 0.29 mW of power with 17 V across the battery poles and the 1 MOhm resistor in series.

      • DrD

        Hi Andreas, we don’t use the cell resistance (it varies). The power input to the cell is given by VxI as in FC’s spread sheet.
        .

        • Andreas Moraitis

          Right, the cell resistance varies. I did not suggest using it to determine the input – the 1k figure was only an example to demonstrate what order of magnitude of input power one could expect.

          I cannot find current readings in any of the spreadsheets. It seems that sometimes the voltage has been measured across the resistor, which would suffice to calculate the current. But in this case you would also have to know the voltage at the terminals.

          • FC

            The current supplied by the bias circuit is equal to the voltage drop across the bias resistor divided by the resistance. The voltage drop is calculated as the battery’s voltage minus the O1-O2 voltage.

            I didn’t include a column for the current value because it isn’t essential as such, only inasmuch as it allows us to calculate the power input. And that can be done by using the calculation described above as part of the power calculation formula.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            It is correct that you can use either the voltage between the terminals or the battery voltage, provided that you know the voltage across the resistor. But the battery voltage has been measured only occasionally, as far as I remember. Why should one rely on guesses if the work could be done in a more sound way?

          • FC

            As I commented in the “Notes” column, we are assuming that the battery voltage is 9.000V. Having B1-B2 readings as regularly as O1-O2 readings would remove all uncertainty from the input power calculations. But only Frank can do those readings, so it’s up to him.

        • Sanjeev

          I can’t find the current measurement in the SS.

      • Sanjeev

        Right. Its difficult to measure the input energy, as the battery terminal voltage will also vary. The input will also depend on the load (which will vary) and the capacitance (again varies in unknown manner).
        So I suggest to take the entire energy content of 2 x Alkaline batteries as input, at the end of the test. Just add it to the energy equivalence of the black box. It will add just a few more months to the test duration.(at current situation).
        I’ll search for a suitable value, if Franks decides to continue with the biased setup. If it does not work significantly better, just get rid of the bias and make your lives easier.

  • FC

    Since some people are having difficulties understanding the calculation of the power input to the test device from the bias circuit, I will attempt once more to explain this very basic circuit. Please refer to the attached schematic.

    Here’s what we know:

    1. The resistance of the bias resistor (1M Ohm).
    2. The battery’s voltage (B1-B2), although right now we are assuming it to be 9V until Frank can make periodic readings.
    3. The O1-O2 voltage. For example, 3.5V.

    From that data, we can find the voltage drop across the resistor, Vr = 9 – 3.5 = 5.5V.

    The current going through the circuit is the same at every single point at any given time, because everything is in series. Therefore, the easiest way to find it is by applying Ohm’s law to the resistor.

    I = Vr / R = 5.5 / 1000000 = 5.5 uA

    Then, the power at any point in the circuit can be calculated as:

    P = V x I

    For example, the power input to the test device (irrespective of whether this black box is capacitive, resistive or anything else) is:

    P = 3.5 x 0.0000055 = 19.25 uW

    Finally, the energy input to the test device is simply the integral of the power input over time (i.e. power multiplied by time). For this calculation, I take the simple average of two consecutive power readings and multiply it by the time elapsed between those readings. And then, add up all those energy calculations.

    So the formulas that I’m using are:

    Power In = 3.5 x [(9 – 3.5) / 1000000]
    Energy In = [(P1 + P2) / 2] x (T2 – T1)

    Where P1 and P2 are two consecutive power readings and T1 and T2 are the times of those readings.

    As can be seen, all that we need is the B1-B2 readings, the O1-O2 readings, the time of those readings and the resistor’s value. From that data, everything else can be calculated easily.

    • Andreas Moraitis

      I am quite confident that nobody here has the slightest difficulties in understanding such simple calculations.

      • FC

        Thanks Andreas, I’m relieved to hear that.

        • Andreas Moraitis

          The first point I made below was based on the assumption that the voltage had been measured at the terminals, not across the resistor. I am sure you agree that measuring only the voltage at the terminals would not allow conclusions about current and power.

          My second point was related to the battery voltage. Of course, you can assume that it is 9 volts and take this assumption as the basis of your calculation. It will likely make no significant difference, from a practical point of view. But certainly no scientist or engineer would do it that way.

          • FC

            Totally agreed, Andreas. Fortunately, thanks to Frank we now have more readings to add precision to our calculations. Thus we may find out that instead of 6 years, we need to run these tests for 6.5 years to rule out the battery hypothesis. (Just kidding).

          • DrD

            I know some that do. In this instance it does make a slight difference.

  • FC

    Since some people are having difficulties understanding the calculation of the power input to the test device from the bias circuit, I will attempt once more to explain this very basic circuit. Please refer to the attached schematic.

    Here’s what we know:

    1. The resistance of the bias resistor (1M Ohm).
    2. The battery’s voltage (B1-B2), although right now we are assuming it to be 9V until Frank can make periodic readings.
    3. The O1-O2 voltage. For example, 3.5V.

    From that data, we can find the voltage drop across the resistor, Vr = 9 – 3.5 = 5.5V.

    The current going through the circuit is the same at every single point at any given time, because everything is in series. Therefore, the easiest way to find it is by applying Ohm’s law to the resistor.

    I = Vr / R = 5.5 / 1000000 = 5.5 uA

    Then, the power at any point in the circuit can be calculated as:

    P = V x I

    For example, the power input to the test device (irrespective of whether this black box is capacitive, resistive or anything else) is:

    P = 3.5 x 0.0000055 = 19.25 uW

    Finally, the energy input to the test device is simply the integral of the power input over time (i.e. power multiplied by time). For this calculation, I take the simple average of two consecutive power readings and multiply it by the time elapsed between those readings. And then, add up all those energy calculations.

    So the formulas that I’m using are:

    Power In = 3.5 x [(9 – 3.5) / 1000000]
    Energy In = [(P1 + P2) / 2] x (T2 – T1)

    Where P1 and P2 are two consecutive power readings and T1 and T2 are the times of those readings.

    As can be seen, all that we need is the B1-B2 readings, the O1-O2 readings, the time of those readings and the resistor’s value. From that data, everything else can be calculated easily.

    • Andreas Moraitis

      I am quite confident that nobody here has the slightest difficulties in understanding such simple calculations.

      • FC

        Thanks Andreas, I’m relieved to hear that.

        • Andreas Moraitis

          The first point I made below was based on the assumption that the voltage had been measured at the terminals, not across the resistor. I am sure you agree that measuring only the voltage at the terminals would not allow conclusions about current and power.

          My second point was related to the battery voltage. Of course, you can assume that it is 9 volts and take this assumption as the basis of your calculation. It will likely make no significant difference, from a practical point of view. But certainly no scientist or engineer would do it that way.

          • FC

            Totally agreed, Andreas. Fortunately, thanks to Frank we now have more readings to add precision to our calculations. Thus we may find out that instead of 6 years, we need to run these tests for 6.5 years to rule out the battery hypothesis. (Just kidding).

  • Surely someone here can specify a tiny battery that Frank might use for the “input.” If the external bias battery is sufficiently small in capacity then the time to do a full energy balance ought to be shortened! We need some faster gratification here in measurement of input vs. output, months simply won’t do… c’mon most of us here are men, we know all about short duration gratification 😉

    • Andreas Moraitis

      I think it’s now safe enough since we have two readings, thanks to Frank. (It might even be enough to check the battery voltage once before each round.) Anyway, it seems that the cell voltage does not reach, let alone exceed the original value when it recovers – which it should if the device would harvest or produce significant amounts of energy. Most likely the pivot voltages will get lower and lower until the internal reservoir is exhausted.

    • DrD

      Hi George, unfortunately I think it doesn’t work like that. If you look at the results, the higher AVERAGE “energy out” for a given “energy in”(bias) seems to be better for high “energy in” (high bias input).
      Given that the capacity of the theoretical battery (see sheet “duration calculator”) is huge, we need the highest output we can get (apparently = the highest bias) to bring the proof time down below about 4 years. As this seems rather pointless, Frank is looking at other approaches.
      My thought is that once he has exhausted all possible tests, he could dissasemble in an attempt to prove that the theoretical battery either isn’t there or is smaller than theorised at present OR it is there. Maybe that is the “manly approach”.
      Incidentally, he has in effect been varying the size of the battery by varying the bias resistor and the number of cells.

      • Alas it is getting close to beating a dead horse with the poor O devices, or perhaps beating a dead goat. Nothing to be done until Steorn builds a model that meets their specs.

  • Surely someone here can specify a tiny battery that Frank might use for the “input.” If the external bias battery is sufficiently small in capacity then the time to do a full energy balance ought to be shortened! We need some faster gratification here in measurement of input vs. output, months simply won’t do… c’mon most of us here are men, we know all about short duration gratification 😉

    • Andreas Moraitis

      I think it’s now safe enough since we have two readings, thanks to Frank. (It might even be enough to check the battery voltage once before each round.) Anyway, it seems that the cell voltage does not reach, let alone exceed the original value when it recovers – which it should if the device would harvest or produce significant amounts of energy. Most likely the pivot voltages will get lower and lower until the internal reservoir is exhausted.

    • DrD

      Hi George, unfortunately I think it doesn’t work like that. If you look at the results, the higher AVERAGE “energy out” for a given “energy in”(bias) seems to be better for high “energy in” (high bias input).
      Given that the capacity of the theoretical battery (see sheet “duration calculator”) is huge, we need the highest output we can get (apparently = the highest bias) to bring the proof time down below about 4 years. As this seems rather pointless, Frank is looking at other approaches.
      My thought is that once he has exhausted all possible tests, he could dissasemble in an attempt to prove that the theoretical battery either isn’t there or is smaller than theorised at present OR it is there. Maybe that is the “manly approach”.
      Incidentally, he has in effect been varying the size of the battery by varying the bias resistor and the number of cells.

      • Alas it is getting close to beating a dead horse with the poor O devices, or perhaps beating a dead goat. Nothing to be done until Steorn builds a model that meets their specs.

  • DrD

    I know some that do. In this instance it does make a slight difference.

  • R V

    For a brief period I actually thought this thing might be working but since you are back to inputting energy again it seems like it’s again sinking into a morass
    of uncertainty.

  • R V

    For a brief period I actually thought this thing might be working but since you are back to inputting energy again it seems like it’s again sinking into a morass
    of uncertainty.

  • Zephir

    This graph shows, that the input and output currents are identical, i.e. no free energy is produced.

  • ElSherpa

    Take a look at this new invention. A planpot that can charge a phone 3 times a day! It doesn’t seem to be a joke.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIBQ49extFE

    http://bioo.tech/

    If it works I think it’d be smarter than Orbo.

    • R V

      This concept makes little sense to me. First, plants are inefficient. Then,
      If there were a conversion scheme from photosynthesis to electricity, it would likely be only a few percent also. So we are talking something on the order of a fraction of 1% of the solar power available. Then they claim it works night and day? Sounds more like they are making a battery out of soil, water and something. They do not explain the science behind the concept but they are asking for money.

  • John A

    The Ocube is dead, the Ocube and Ophone “sold out”, and the battery is live. Take a stroll out for some fresh air, then ask Steorn for a full refund.

  • OM

    You can connect a 3V zener diode in series with a 100 ohm resistor to O1-2, and then check the current (or/and voltage across the resistor/O1-2) continuously. The diode prevents discharge below 3V. Thus, you will find your balance. If the current does not decrease with time, we have an endless source of energy inside.

  • OM

    You can connect a 3V zener diode in series with a 100 ohm resistor to O1-2, and then check the current (or/and voltage across the resistor/O1-2) continuously. The diode prevents discharge below 3V. Thus, you will find your balance. If the current does not decrease with time, we have an endless source of energy inside.

  • OM

    The investigation turned into a soap opera.
    It’s time to do something different than the charge / discharge O1-2. Do not you think?

  • OM

    The investigation turned into a soap opera.
    It’s time to do something different than the charge / discharge O1-2. Do not you think?

  • US_Citizen71

    Is there a reason Steorn can’t provide a working a unit? I haven’t been following to close and don’t understand why after 8 weeks Frank isn’t testing a working unit that he paid for.

    • Frank Acland

      Their stated reason is they don’t have a product they feel confident releasing yet. Early models were not working right they say (overcharging and undercharging). So I’m waiting for the next items, in the meantime testing on what I have on hand.

  • US_Citizen71

    Is there a reason Steorn can’t provide a working a unit? I haven’t been following too close and don’t understand why after 8 weeks Frank isn’t testing a working unit that he paid for.

    • Frank Acland

      Their stated reason is they don’t have a product they feel confident releasing yet. Early models were not working right they say (overcharging and undercharging). So I’m waiting for the next items, in the meantime testing on what I have on hand.

      • Bob Tavis

        That makes no sense. Why in the world would they not have done due diligence prior to manufacturing hundreds of units and subsequently offering for commercial release? At what point did they say, “this baby is ready to go public?” Do they not test these things at all? It is really shoddy engineering to say the least. After ten years of jerking around when they finally do release a product it fails big time. Incredible.

        • I think that it makes perfect sense. It’s called: “incompetence.”

          • Bob Tavis

            This is not incompetence it is something slightly more nefarious. Either they did no testing whatsoever prior to sales which would be a gross dereliction of duty or they knew it didn’t work and sold it anyway which would be really unethical. The phrase “pig in a poke,” comes to mind.

        • Alex Fenrick

          I have to agree with you here Bob. In the IrishTimes interview, you can even see Shaun showing off all of the Orbos on the table saying “these are in the final phases of testing then packing and shipped”. Obviously a lie in my opinion. It would be one thing if one or a few of those completed potted assembled units failed…but to not have one single one that can be shipped working…I don’t buy it for a second!!!

          Very interesting to catch some of the other things he says as well. Shaun goes on to say “if it works for a month is a very good battery…if it works for two months its bordering on magic…if it works for three months it IS magic”. I believe that message has some serious hidden meaning (my personal speculation below of course) First of all a battery of that mass would NOT be magic if it worked for 3 months…it would just be a battery. Secondly, and more importantly, the nature of the Ocube needing recharge windows between charges ever so conveniently would absolutely allow for many months of charges because they are spread out between the recharge windows over time. They offer a 12 month warranty which would be a perfect opportunity to “refurbish the unit” (replacing the battery that gives at least 12 months charge via the fabricated time windows) for a nominal charge allowing your Orbo to continue its magic for another 12 months!!!

          Then when challenged by the journalist as to whether Steorn is hanging themselves out to dry shipping the product (which has happened)…Shaun responds with “we are either ridiculously stupid or we obviously have immense confidence in what we are doing”. That statement amuses me as both situations can be true..and in fact DO seem to be the case at this point….just by the very nature of shipping a product you just said is tested…yet there still has not been a single Ocube shipped anywhere in the world that is known to work. There are so many other red flags in that video as well as visual and vocal cues as Shaun talks. The completely fake and contrived video Steorn did in the pub where they talk about the decade of failure was even more ridiculous….I really love how they brought the bar tender in as well to add to the charade. Then we have the Ophones which have amazingly stopped charging as well. If you have not watched the Irish Times interview and the pub sit down…..you really need to see both of them. In hindsight after watching both of them….you really get a better sense of what is going on….poor poor investors….

          • Bob Tavis

            Shaun is a master of prevarication. The phrase, “Shaun said…” is a red flag in itself. In ten years they have convinced no one that has had any direct experience with their so called tech. Not the developers clubs, not their hand picked jury, not even Phil Watson who was a firm believer, and not Clanzer who did extensive attempts at replication in the most professional manner possible and finally gave up. It has always come down to either delusion or scam. But $20M+ is no delusion and frankly I think they know exactly what they are doing. Unfortunately I don’t think it has anything to do with producing energy. Just my humble opinion of course and to the extent I do not have a horse in this race it is all mildly amusing.

            I do of course have sympathy for the scores of people who have spent countless hours (and their own money) trying to squeeze something out of these lemons. The jury was strung out for two years and they gave up never having received any tech to really evaluate (just some vague, inconclusive data). I know one of the jury members and he thought they were insincere as to the bombastic claim.

            The fact that Orbo looks like a red-faced monkey says something.

  • OM

    Oh, so I am right 🙂
    I am understand.
    Do not worry, I will not distract you anymore.

    • SG

      Don’t attack Frank or the ECW community. Our intentions are pure. Your
      suggestion of using the Zener diode in a new test arrangement described below is reasonable. That is a positive contribution to the discussion and the effort. Leave your good suggestions, but refrain from the attacks.

  • OM

    Oh, so I am right 🙂
    I am understand.
    Do not worry, I will not distract you anymore.

    • SG

      Don’t attack Frank or the ECW community. Our intentions are pure. Your
      suggestion of using the Zener diode in a new test arrangement described below is reasonable. That is a positive contribution to the discussion and the effort. Leave your good suggestions, but refrain from the attacks.

      • OM

        OK.

      • OM

        You are free to use any of my advice.
        Bye.

  • Frank Acland

    It’s not terribly exciting testing at the moment, definitely a long-term project. Just over the last hour or so, I’ve seen some interesting activity with the voltage readings. Normally with a resistor applied, there’s a fairly steady, if gradual, decline — but there’s been some voltage spiking lately.

    • Frank Acland

      I found that the resistor had a bad connection — I think that was the cause of the voltage instability noted above.

  • Frank Acland

    It’s not terribly exciting testing at the moment, definitely a long-term project. Just over the last hour or so, I’ve seen some interesting activity with the voltage readings. Normally with a resistor applied, there’s a fairly steady, if gradual, decline — but there’s been some voltage spiking lately.

    • Frank Acland

      I found that the resistor had a bad connection — I think that was the cause of the voltage instability noted above.

  • Matt

    An x-ray probably would make a very quick end to the story.

  • I think that it makes perfect sense. It’s called: “incompetence.”

    • Bob Tavis

      This is not incompetence it is something slightly more nefarious. Either they did no testing whatsoever prior to sales which would be a gross dereliction of duty or they knew it didn’t work and sold it anyway which would be really unethical. The phrase “pig in a poke,” comes to mind.

  • Bob Tavis

    Shaun is a master of prevarication. The phrase, “Shaun said…” is a red flag in itself. In ten years they have convinced no one that has had any direct experience with their so called tech. Not the developers clubs, not their hand picked jury, not even Phil Watson who was a firm believer, and not Clanzer who did extensive attempts at replication in the most professional manner possible and finally gave up. It has always come down to either delusion or scam. But $20M+ is no delusion and frankly I think they know exactly what they are doing. Unfortunately I don’t think it has anything to do with producing energy. Just my humble opinion of course and to the extent I do not have a horse in this race it is all mildly amusing.

    I do of course have sympathy for the scores of people who have spent countless hours (and their own money) trying to squeeze something out of these lemons. The jury was strung out for two years and they gave up never having received any tech to really evaluate (just some vague, inconclusive data). I know one of the jury members and he thought they were insincere as to the bombastic claim.

    The fact that Orbo looks like a red-faced monkey says something.

    • Frank Acland

      There was an unusual voltage jump this afternoon. All connections seem solid this time.

      • FC

        Very interesting, Frank. Was it due, perhaps, to a large number of dipoles cascading into alignment? Who knows. But the voltage that was reached (at least 3.78V) is higher than any reading since March 25, I believe.

        • Frank Acland

          Yes, it seems to confirm what Shaun said about the stepwise charging behavior of the orbo. I will leave this as is for a while now and see if it happens again.

          • DrD

            Yes, I agree it certainly looks that way.
            We need some good news.
            I’m not sure how valid this is but if you add the delta V (1.4V) to the Start voltage (@7.16am) you would have had 4.88V which is close to the 5.16/7V that we used to see when it was probably 100% activated.
            The control chip hasn’t stated up again has it Frank?

          • FC

            I was wondering just the same thing, Dave. 🙂

          • DrD

            It’s happened again, much smaller this time but it certainly ties in with what Frank says Shaun described.

        • DrD

          You went quiet FC? Are you updating the SS or is Frank doing it? The reason I ask because either yesterdays configuration was misunderstood or it has given up the ghost (at least at the moment). I posted an explanation nearer the top, in reply to Frank.

      • Hi Frank, are you sure there is no battery inside the phone block hidden somewhere ?
        don’t you think it’s time to disassemble it now and get the powercells out there ?
        Is it known how many OCubes and OPhones have really shippeduntil now ? Many thanks. Regards, Stefan.

        • Harald Willems

          This is the last activity i`ve seen from Shaun on Facebook dated 26-2-2016.

          It bestranges me that even if he went on a holiday he didn`t contact Frank occasionally about the failing orbo`s.

          My theory:

          The shipping time span & route gave secret services, powerful energy-kartels or whomever plenty of opportunity to modify the devices into failure behaviour and top it off with some fresh repotting.
          Also Shaun usually`s photogenic enough to include a mugshot with his face shown in the picture while now there`s only his forearm visible.
          Again piece of cake for the abovementioned to photoshop something like this, put a vague comment above it that can be interpreted in many mysterious ways and meanwhile letting poor Shaun vanish into thin air…

          Harald Willems,
          Eindhoven Netherlands

          My Facebook page is wide open for anyone interested in an angry old fart stuck in lifelong puberty (wich actually feels like a blessing) so don`t hesitate to check now & then whether i`m still around after spamming this theory often enough, otherwise i`ll probably be playing poker with Shaun & Nikola Tesla at The Voltage Bar in the sweet hereafter.

          • Rip Kirbyian

            I must say that the ORBO campaign can be interesting for marketing students.

          • Alex Fenrick

            Good point Rip….Steorn has managed to fool thousands of very intelligent people (myself included) for almost 20 years with the old carrot on a stick trick. It really is time to expose the man behind the curtain….

      • Hi Frank, please always make in all your Youtube videos in the video decription box the link to the current webpage here into it, so we will find the right webpage faster, if we just see a new video from you on Youtube. Also you did not allow comments on the Youtube videos, is it so that all people will only comment here ?

        • Frank Acland

          Sorry Stefan, you are right. I need to include links to the site. Yes I’d like to keep comments here on ECW .

          • Yes Frank, as one also does not find the threads on your Ecat-World homepage, so this topic is very hard to find…

    • Frank Acland

      Hi Markus,

      Yes, I just bought an Arduino system and hope to be able to have automated measurements posted. I need to first figure this system out.

      Meanwhile you can watch Steorn’s livestream here: https://www.twitch.tv/orboteam

      • Bob Tavis

        Any word from Steorn on sending new Orbo cell now that their testing is completed? And I see they have started selling product again on their website.

        • Bob Tavis

          Oh, they are “sold out” again. Business must be brisk.

      • DrD

        Any update Frank, on either of the units?
        I found your work to be far more interesting than watching the livestream.

  • R V

    This concept makes little sense to me. First, plants are inefficient. Then,
    If there were a conversion scheme from photosynthesis to electricity, it would likely be only a few percent also. So we are talking something on the order of a fraction of 1% of the solar power available. Then they claim it works night and day? Sounds more like they are making a battery out of soil, water and something. They do not explain the science behind the concept but they are asking for money.

  • Frank Acland

    There was an unusual voltage jump this afternoon. All connections seem solid this time.

    • Bayani

      Frank I highly recommend that you request for a refund ASAP while you are doing these tests. I’m sure Steorn will let you keep those broken ocubes. You know you can always make another order in the future when Steorn sorted out the problems / when they have completely working ocube. I believe this is best for everyone who made the contribution.

      • NO WAY… keep the devices they are far too valuable even if only for historic purposes. Steorn has made quite reasonable explanations, apologies, and offer to make good with their customers, give them the little time it takes to make things right!

        • The radio silence that has happened recently is rather troubling. Also both demo oPhones failing and lack of updates from those two is another troubling issue.

          It would seem if Steorn really has this tech working at all they could easily post a 24 hour web cam doing the same tests frank is doing here.

        • Alex Fenrick

          I have to agree with Cameron there Russ. The complete lack of any communication or information is beyond suspect at this point. If this really was nothing more than a controller issue that they claim they have resolved, there would be no reason not to provide Frank with another unit to test or as Cameron mentioned at very least let us watch a webstream with NO abnormal conditions or camera angles etc. The website has nothing, the facebook page is silent AND locked, Ophones done and the only units in the wild are not working….nothing more than a recent vague email that really tells us nothing in substance…just more open-ended promises. Steorn is not even taking phone calls at this point…I would be shocked if they would even respond to a return at this point. I just really wonder how many more times that little boy is going to be allowed to cry wolf…….

    • FC

      Very interesting, Frank. Was it due, perhaps, to a large number of dipoles cascading into alignment? Who knows. But the voltage that was reached (at least 3.78V) is higher than any reading since March 25, I believe.

      • Frank Acland

        Yes, it seems to confirm what Shaun said about the stepwise charging behavior of the orbo. I will leave this as is for a while now and see if it happens again.

        • DrD

          Yes, I agree it certainly looks that way.
          We need some good news.
          I’m not sure how valid this is but if you add the delta V (1.4V) to the Start voltage (@7.16am) you would have had 4.88V which is close to the 5.16/7V that we used to see when it was probably 100% activated.
          Edit: What I’m wondering is, at the next recharge, will it recharge rapidly to 5V now, rather than the 3.5V level and if so, what will the controller do?

          • FC

            I was wondering just the same thing, Dave. 🙂

          • DrD

            It’s happened again, much smaller this time but it certainly ties in with what Frank says Shaun described.

      • DrD

        You went quiet FC? Are you updating the SS or is Frank doing it? The reason I ask because either yesterdays configuration was misunderstood or it has given up the ghost (at least at the moment). I posted an explanation nearer the top, in reply to Frank.

    • Hi Frank, are you sure there is no battery inside the phone block hidden somewhere ?
      don’t you think it’s time to disassemble it now and get the powercells out there ?
      Is it known how many OCubes and OPhones have really shippeduntil now ? Many thanks. Regards, Stefan.

    • Hi Frank, please always make in all your Youtube videos in the video decription box the link to the current webpage here into it, so we will find the right webpage faster, if we just see a new video from you on Youtube. Also you did not allow comments on the Youtube videos, is it so that all people will only comment here ?

      • Frank Acland

        Sorry Stefan, you are right. I need to include links to the site. Yes I’d like to keep comments here on ECW .

        • Yes Frank, as one also does not find the threads on your Ecat-World homepage, so this topic is very hard to find…

  • NO WAY… keep the devices they are far too valuable even if only for historic purposes. Steorn has made quite reasonable explanations, apologies, and offer to make good with their customers, give them the little time it takes to make things right!

  • Sanjeev

    Biased operation started 7 days ago. So far no huge improvements.
    I personally (non-objectively) can say that its producing some energy, and its not coming from a battery, but the source is unknown.
    I guess its time to think of some new strategy, like extracting the orbo cells from the resin or cutting off the controller area, so we get two cells. The primary one would produce more if we can get hold of it.

    • Ged

      This may indeed be the best course of action now. We have a lot of very interesting voltage data, and it does seem enough now to support that conclusion, but it would take way too long with the current methods to fully rule all things out. But, if Frank can extract the actual core by itself, we can be far more definitive in our testing and estimations (actual weight, no other hidden components, etc).

      • DrD

        Have to agree. It’s shame to lose a partialy functioning cell but it looks like it will just go on like this for a long time but isn’t going to prove theres no battery for a few years. who knows, with some careful scraping the cells might still function.

      • Sanjeev

        An xray would be needed to find where to make cuts.
        Perhaps Frank can ask Steorn itself. If they object to it, then we can’t do it but if they help, it will be great.

  • Sanjeev

    Biased operation started 7 days ago. So far no huge improvements.
    I personally (non-objectively) can say that its producing some energy, and its not coming from a battery, but the source is unknown.
    I guess its time to think of some new strategy, like extracting the orbo cells from the resin or cutting off the controller area, so we get two cells. The primary one would produce more if we can get hold of it.

    • Ged

      This may indeed be the best course of action now. We have a lot of very interesting voltage data, and it does seem enough now to support that conclusion, but it would take way too long with the current methods to fully rule all things out. But, if Frank can extract the actual core by itself, we can be far more definitive in our testing and estimations (actual weight, no other hidden components, etc).

      • DrD

        Have to agree. It’s shame to lose a partialy functioning cell but it looks like it will just go on like this for a long time but isn’t going to prove theres no battery for a few years. who knows, with some careful scraping the cells might still function.

      • Sanjeev

        An xray would be needed to find where to make cuts.
        Perhaps Frank can ask Steorn itself. If they object to it, then we can’t do it but if they help, it will be great.

        • Alex Fenrick

          Careful Dremel or power handtool will do the job without need of an xray…just takes a careful hand and a little time. I have been able to shave right down wire jackets and PCBs without even hitting the face lacquer. I think we have beat this dead horse at this point…..

          • Sanjeev

            Great. If you live somewhere near Frank’s place, you may be able to help.

    • Alex Fenrick

      Sanjeev….what is leading you to believe this is not a battery at this point from looking at the data? The most recent data actually suggest to me that we do have a battery that is being sapped over time. Just curious if I have missed something over the last few days that you caught…

      • Sanjeev

        I’m trying to prepare a new sheet where some observations are taken from the data.
        Can take some time….

        • Alex Fenrick

          Either way…excellent work on the data mining….not the most fun part of engineering in my opinion!! lol

      • SG

        The answer, I believe, is in the random voltage jumps shown in the data, suspected to be magnetic domains suddenly aligning. My guess is that Sanjeev has examined the data closely and is basing his opinion on that–but can’t speak for him. He is very capable of expressing his own thoughts!

        • Alex Fenrick

          Interesting perspective….but I tend to think those jumps could easily just be due to the architecture of an internal chip or circuit. I have seen that type of behavior with usb controllers, lipo chargers, voltage converters/inverters, microcontrollers…especially those of low quality or odd design or possible malfunction. I am not saying Sanjeev may not be correct…just figured I would put out my experience with these types of curves we are seeing….could be so many different things still.

        • Sanjeev

          I’ve posted the analysis in above comment.
          Jumps are interesting, but I left them out. I think if there is a battery and RC circuit inside (or something similar), then we should get very consistent data and should be able to copy that exact behavior using a battery and R and C. If it fails then, there is no battery inside.

          • Alex Fenrick

            Sanjeev…I don’t really think that is true. As I mentioned the data could absolutely be indicative of behavior of numerous small circuits (controller,charger,inverter,converter) or even some sort of time release catalyst battery that would not necessarily show a consistent curve. I really don’t think it tells us anything about a battery or associated electronics at all because we are not talking about a traditional circuit design even if it is merely a battery in there. Removing the potting really is trivial with a Dremel once the decision is made. I have attached a photo that gives a good starting point visually. If Frank has a local machine shop nearby, they could very quickly and easily machine off the aluminum case to make it MUCH easier on top of that I wish I was local to Frank to help him, as I have machined away cases and hand-tooled potting down to wire sheaths and lacquer faces of PCBs…just takes a little time and a steady hand. There really is no choice left at this point in my opinion…all other testing possibilities have been exhausted at this point.

          • Sanjeev

            I think you are confusing which device we are testing. Some reading on it will help. Its the black brick and only one orbo cell in it is being tested. I’m pretty sure that there is nothing complicated connected to it, because we can charge it directly by connecting an external battery. No smoke comes out even with 18V on it.:)

          • Alex Fenrick

            No no Sanjeev…I have been following along…..even though the cube is dead as a doornail….it would still make sense to cut into it…as it would give us more info for both devices. I actually think it makes most sense to cut into both devices at this point. I really don’t think we can get any answers by continuing the test methodology…just too many variables at this point. Neither devices function at all anyways.

          • Alex Fenrick

            No no Sanjeev…I have been following along…..even though the cube is dead as a doornail….it would still make sense to cut into it…as it would give us more info for both devices. I actually think it makes most sense to cut into both devices at this point. I really don’t think we can get any answers by continuing the test methodology…just too many variables at this point. Neither devices function at all anyways.

          • Alex Fenrick

            You can get a pretty good idea where things would be by looking at this raw casing to get started…. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/1962c2c4f52a15a70e3e5872eaf46320f8a2b3324606218877c9b6108a4e25b6.jpg

          • Sanjeev

            That’s the OCube, which is perhaps totally dead (The one Frank has).

            Construction of Ophone part (the black brick we are testing) is totally unknown.

          • Alex Fenrick

            Sorry…some of my message somehow was wiped. I had suggested also that maybe it was time to crack open the Ocube since we know the physical layout and since it would contain the “magic sauce” we are searching for too. Sorry for the confusion in mixing the two devices!!!

        • Sanjeev

          Actually I just realized that the jumps are included in the time duration test. If a jump happens it will take less time to charge compared to the battery hypothesis situation and will be a proof, because battery+RC can’t do that.

      • Sanjeev

        I’ve posted the analysis in above comment.

  • So many people are so interested in Rossi, Industrial Heat, and the lawsuit. Me, personally, I’m more interested in the fact that these tests seem to be showing that The Orbo Effect is real.

    • Alex Fenrick

      Mark, nothing has changed at this point to show we are seeing the Orbo effect…this could still just as easily be a hidden battery that is discharging over time. The tiny amount of energy that has been produced so far causes me to still believe we have a hidden battery. If Frank chooses to break out the Dremel and removing the potting…we may see shortly!

      • I feel that as much testing as possible has been done on the current devices. Might as well break out the dremel, IMHO.

  • Alex Fenrick

    Has anyone seen any communication of any kind from Shaun or Steorn in the last 20 days since the vague message about the bad controller? I know they are not taking phone calls or allowing any communication on Facebook. Just curious if anyone has made any contact with them…..

  • Alex Fenrick

    Has anyone seen any communication of any kind from Shaun or Steorn in the last 20 days since the vague message about the bad controller? I know they are not taking phone calls or allowing any communication on Facebook. Just curious if anyone has made any contact with them…..

    • Mono

      Sorry mate, you’ll have to be patient until they release the self-powered OLED-based OScreen for the next update. That should happen around 2021.

      • Alex Fenrick

        Excellent thanks for the info Mono….I had heard that we were gonna have to wait till 2025 for the Olink (Orbo mind-link) before release…this is excellent news!!

  • BillH

    I’ve been monitoring this thread for a while, most people know that I’m not convinced by Steorn. So far what has been observed could be the result of an electret, piezoelectric or thermocouple type device. The bottom line is, neither the Ocube or OPhone are performing the function for which they were designed. Even if this is some new unknown effect the questions would be is it scalable? is it economical? and is it reliable?
    As it stands, even if it worked as described by Steorn it wouldn’t be competitive on price with other readily available solutions.

    I know some people here are more interested in the actual effect, but for me it would only be interesting if it could be put to some practical use.

    • Bob Tavis

      You’re wondering if some kind of unknown effect which has so far been shown not to work can be put to practical use? Good luck with that.

      Steorn has had ten years and $20M to perfect their tech and this is where they are at. And, they have gone dark to boot right at the time when they offer their first products after months of hoopla and hype. Do people have trouble connecting dots?

  • Sanjeev

    I’m trying to prepare a new sheet where some observations are taken from the data.
    Can take some time….

  • Harald Willems

    This is the last activity i`ve seen from Shaun on Facebook dated 26-2-2016.

    It bestranges me that even if he went on a holiday he didn`t contact Frank occasionally about the failing orbo`s.

    My theory:

    The shipping time span & route gave secret services, powerful energy-kartels or whomever plenty of opportunity to modify the devices into failure behaviour and top it off with some fresh repotting.
    Also Shaun usually`s photogenic enough to include a mugshot with his face shown in the picture while now there`s only his forearm visible.
    Again piece of cake for the abovementioned to photoshop something like this, put a vague comment above it that can be interpreted in many mysterious ways and meanwhile letting poor Shaun vanish into thin air…

    Harald Willems,
    Eindhoven Netherlands

    My Facebook page is wide open for anyone interested in an angry old fart stuck in lifelong puberty (wich actually feels like a blessing) so don`t hesitate to check now & then whether i`m still around after spamming this theory often enough, otherwise i`ll probably be playing poker with Shaun & Nikola Tesla at The Voltage Bar in the sweet hereafter.

    • Rip Kirbyian

      I must say that the ORBO campaign can be interesting for marketing students.

      • Alex Fenrick

        Good point Rip….Steorn has managed to fool thousands of very intelligent people (myself included) for almost 20 years with the old carrot on a stick trick. It really is time to expose the man behind the curtain….

        • Bob Tavis

          Well, ten years at least. And fooling you or me is is inconsequential. It is fooling the investors where the real money is. Why they haven’t expressed any concern is baffling to say the least.

  • Sanjeev

    Some data analysis is done here:
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UBIA4JTDb_kBwoytR9LP7OP7tH63yUeiPn2kKye4frY/edit#gid=1885825272
    Trying to see if this is consistent with the battery with a RC circuit hypothesis. There can be errors and misinterpretations, so it should not be taken as final conclusion.
    The point is, if we somehow disprove the battery hypothesis, there will be no need to wait for years to test it. Any smart ways to do so (without destroying the device) are most welcome. However, the final evidence will be seeing what’s inside by uncovering the resin.

    • SG

      Thanks for this analysis Sanjeev–very useful.

      I do wonder though how you can make the following conclusion: “Which is nothing but a capacitor with an electret instead of an electrolyte.” Why then would Steorn use dissimilar metal foils? If it was simply an electret sandwiched in between two conductive plates, why not use similar conductive plates? Of course, our “dissimilar metal” knowledge is based on what Steorn has said, and we have no proof or explanation of it.

      • Sanjeev

        By that I simply mean that IF it is behaving like a capacitor connected to a battery (although not a purely normal behavior), then its not surprising and makes sense because its made like a capacitor.

        The difference is that the metals are dissimilar and there is an electret in between (as per Steorn). And perhaps because of this it deviates from a normal capacitor and we see some production of charge. This charge is reflected in the data as variable RC.

        So a battery+RC explains some of the characteristics of the data, but a capacitor with charge generation also explains it !

        In other words it verifies Steorn’s comment and we can use the same
        argument to reasonably say that its not a battery but charge generating
        capacitor.

        Actually there is some behavior (like variable Ri, which the battery hypothesis cannot explain, but a self charging capacitor can, but I can’t say its true 100% at present).

        • SG

          Isn’t it strange to think that Frank and the ECW community might presently be the only ones with possession of an Orbo cell (other than Steorn of course). The only other two that publicly stated they had one (Rachel Wallace and Jen Roe) have gone silent, even after promising to give regular updates. Steorn have been silent now for some number of weeks.

          Why is this giving me such an eerie feeling?

          Clearly, there is something strange going on with our Orbo cell. Not exactly behaving the way it was intended, but strange nonetheless (the sudden voltage jumps, Sanjeev’s analysis pointing away from the battery hypothesis, etc.). Yet, we are left hanging without any recent input from Steorn, no replacement parts, not even a peep.

          Is there someone from Ireland close enough to Steorn headquarters who would be willing to simply do a drive by of the premises and report back? Perhaps even knock on the door and see if everyone there are still okay and accounted for?

  • Sanjeev

    Some data analysis is done here:
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UBIA4JTDb_kBwoytR9LP7OP7tH63yUeiPn2kKye4frY/edit#gid=1885825272
    Trying to see if this is consistent with the battery with a RC circuit hypothesis. There can be errors and misinterpretations, so it should not be taken as final conclusion.
    The point is, if we somehow disprove the battery hypothesis, there will be no need to wait for years to test it. Any smart ways to do so (without destroying the device) are most welcome. However, the final evidence will be seeing what’s inside by uncovering the resin.

    • SG

      Thanks for this analysis Sanjeev–very useful.

      I do wonder though how you can make the following conclusion: “Which is nothing but a capacitor with an electret instead of an electrolyte.” Why then would Steorn use dissimilar metal foils? If it was simply an electret sandwiched in between two conductive plates, why not use similar conductive plates? Of course, our “dissimilar metal” knowledge is based on what Steorn has said, and we have no proof or explanation of it.

      • Sanjeev

        By that I simply mean that IF it is behaving like a capacitor connected to a battery (although not a purely normal behavior), then its not surprising and makes sense because its made like a capacitor.

        The difference is that the metals are dissimilar and there is an electret in between (as per Steorn). And perhaps because of this it deviates from a normal capacitor and we see some production of charge. This charge is reflected in the data as variable RC.

        So a battery+RC explains some of the characteristics of the data, but a capacitor with charge generation also explains it !

        In other words it verifies Steorn’s comment and we can use the same
        argument to reasonably say that its not a battery but charge generating
        capacitor.

        Actually there is some behavior (like variable Ri, which the battery hypothesis cannot explain, but a self charging capacitor can, but I can’t say its true 100% at present).

  • Sanjeev

    I’ve posted the analysis in above comment.

  • Sanjeev

    I think you are confusing which device we are testing. Some reading on it will help. Its the black brick and only one orbo cell in it is being tested. I’m pretty sure that there is nothing complicated connected to it, because we can charge it directly by connecting an external battery. No smoke comes out even with 18V on it.:)

  • SG

    Isn’t it strange to think that Frank and the ECW community might presently be the only ones with possession of an Orbo cell (other than Steorn of course). The only other two that publicly stated they had one (Rachel Wallace and Jen Roe) have gone silent, even after promising to give regular updates. Steorn have been silent now for some number of weeks.

    Why is this giving me such an eerie feeling?

    Clearly, there is something strange going on with our Orbo cell. Not exactly behaving the way it was intended, but strange nonetheless (the sudden voltage jumps, Sanjeev’s analysis pointing away from the battery hypothesis, etc.). Yet, we are left hanging without any recent input from Steorn, no replacement parts, not even a peep.

    Is there someone from Ireland close enough to Steorn headquarters who would be willing to simply do a drive by of the premises and report back? Perhaps even knock on the door and see if everyone there are still okay and accounted for?

    • Bob Tavis

      I can’t tell you how many times in the course of the last ten years this has been asked when Steorn goes into hibernation. This is how they have operated on numerous occasions, sometimes for months or a year.

      • SG

        Agreed, their actions are usually perplexing, and have been from the start. The difference I guess this time is that we actually have an Orbo, and they still went into hibernation. Is this really the final shuttering? Or are they negotiating for a new whale investor? Or are their currently investors finally dropping the hammer? Ahhh, the imponderable mysteries of the mysterious company from Ireland.

        • Bob Tavis

          But in ten + years they have ONLY been interested in investors so why would this current scenario be any different. Aside from the current scenario they have never sold anything so have never received income via sales. Investors are the only means they have and to that extent they have been successful to the tune of tens of millions. No one knows outside of Steorn how many of these current offerings have actually been sold, if any. Their website says they are sold out but there is no way to verify if it’s true. There is no way to verify their other Hephaheat technology either. In fact verification of anything has been impossible with just about everything related to Steorn.

          Really, it is no mystery to anyone who has critical thinking skills and has some experience with the history of free energy shenanigans. You judge them by their actions not their words. And for over ten years their actions have demonstrated that they are going to do everything in their power to convince people through their words while never delivering on them.

          Having an Orbo that doesn’t work is meaningless. If it doesn’t work, you have nothing. As I have said elsewhere this is not about testing it is a post mortem.

          • DrD

            Except this corpse has signs of life. There is a pulse, albeit quite faint.

          • SG

            The ECW community members possess better critical thinking skills than most. Something can be mysterious and at the same time analyzed with a skeptical but open mind. What is not acceptable to me is when there is some evidence of operation and an individual dismisses the evidence out of hand.

      • Frank Acland

        Bob,

        I’m not here to defend Steorn, I know their history well and their numerous flops. But I don’t want this thread to be a place for debating their business. We have something we can test, which is quite rare in the history of this company — so let’s stick to that side of things.

        • DrD

          Frank, I’m just wondering if your testing plan is flexible enough to include a few hours with a 150kOhm output resistor with bias circuit present. The reason for that is that it seems to be achieving an ouput of between 3 to 4 times it’s input using about 46k Ohms. In theory it should still achieve > 1 times input with ABOUT 125k to 150K. It would be interesting to know if O1,2 remains stable.

          • Frank Acland

            Yes, I’m open to anything at this point, Dave. That could be my next test.

          • DrD

            Good morning Frank.
            I noticed you added the high (147k) resistor but you didn’t have the bias circuit on at the same time.
            In order to have any chance to keep O1,O2 stable with ~147k as a load you also need the bias on.

            BTW, I think the Energy Log record doesn’t agree with Sheet 1.
            According to sheet 1 you removed the bias at 21.30 and never re-applied it except for the accident at 22;07 which was only a few seconds.
            At 22.13 you added 47 Ohms. It doesn’t say where it was attached BUT the voltage readings of O1.O2 only make sense if you added it as a load and NOT as a bias.
            However, the Energy Log shows it the other way round (added as 47 Ohm bias resistor with 147k as load). If the latter, that is the Energy log version is correct then something disastrous has gone wrong.
            Hope FC sees this.
            Hope you follow all that.
            Dave

          • Frank Acland

            Thanks Dave — yes I forgot to add that detail. I was adding the bias circuit to test with the 147k Ohm resistor, and forgot the 1MOhm resistor — that accounts for the jump. So I took off the 147k and used a 47 Ohm instead

  • SG

    Agreed, their actions are usually perplexing, and have been from the start. The difference I guess this time is that we actually have an Orbo, and they still went into hibernation. Is this really the final shuttering? Or are they negotiating for a new whale investor? Or are their currently investors finally dropping the hammer? Ahhh, the imponderable mysteries of the mysterious company from Ireland.

  • Frank Acland

    Bob,

    I’m not here to defend Steorn, I know their history well and their numerous flops. But I don’t want this thread to be a place for debating their business. We have something we can test, which is quite rare in the history of this company — so let’s stick to that side of things.

    • DrD

      Frank, I’m just wondering if your testing plan is flexible enough to include a few hours with a 150kOhm output resistor with bias circuit present. The reason for that is that it seems to be achieving an ouput of between 3 to 4 times it’s input using about 46k Ohms. In theory it should still achieve > 1 times input with ABOUT 150K. It would be interesting to know if O1,2 remains stable.

      • Frank Acland

        Yes, I’m open to anything at this point, Dave. That could be my next test.

        • DrD

          Goodmorning Frank.
          I noticed you added the high (147k) resistor but you didn’t have the bias circuit on at the same time.
          In order to have any chance to keep O1,O2 stable with ~147k as a load you also need the bias on.

          BTW, I think the Energy Log record doesn’t agree with Sheet 1.
          According to sheet 1 you removed the bias at 21.30 and never re-applied it except for the accident at 22;07 which was only a few seconds.
          At 22.13 you added 47 Ohms. It doesn’t say where it was attached BUT the voltage readings of O1.O2 only make sense if you added it as a load and NOT as a bias.
          However, the Energy Log shows it the other way round (added as 47 Ohm bias resistor with 147k as load). If the latter, that is the Energy log version is correct then some thing disastrous has gone wrong.
          Hope FC sees this.
          Hope you follow all that.
          Dave

          • Frank Acland

            Thanks Dave — yes I forgot to add that detail. I was adding the bias circuit to test with the 147k Ohm resistor, and forgot the 1MOhm resistor — that accounts for the jump. So I took off the 147k and used a 47 Ohm instead

  • DrD

    Except this corpse has signs of life. There is a pulse, albeit quite faint.

  • SG

    The ECW community members possess better critical thinking skills than most. Something can be mysterious and at the same time analyzed with a skeptical but open mind. What is not acceptable to me is when there is some evidence of operation and an individual dismisses the evidence out of hand.

  • Sanjeev

    The last two discharge cycles show bumps in voltage, instead of decreasing continuously, it starts increasing sometimes, but only a small amount. Clearly anomalous.
    Any alternative explanations that make sense?

    • SG

      Especially from 21:56 to 22:58 on 4/12/16. That discharge was with a 971 Ohm resistor *and no bias circuit*. Yes, seems anomalous. I can’t imagine how a typical RC circuit + battery would act like that.

      Looking at the broader picture, does it not appear that over time our energy gains with each discharge have diminished. Has the bias circuit actually hindered rather than helped?

      • Frank Acland

        SG, I think the bias circuit helps on the recharge side of things.

      • Frank Acland

        Good point about energy gains diminishing, though. It seems so, yes. However I think we have to take into account that for many days previous to this round of testing I was pumping lots of DC into the cell from external sources. I don’t know what the natural level of this is.

      • Sanjeev

        A battery+RC would discharge from a given starting voltage to an end voltage in a constant time, that is, this time duration will remain unchanged no matter how many times you repeat the discharge (with same voltages).
        But if there is an increase somewhere during the discharge then this time will increase, hinting towards a source of voltage that can gain charge.
        If Frank had a data logger, we would see more such jumps and micro jumps etc. Since a long time is elapsed between measurements, we may be missing such jumps that last for a few seconds to minutes.
        If we could get a trace that shows significant jumping activity, it will kill the battery hypothesis for once and for all, and we can move to other tests, like faraday cage etc.

  • Sanjeev

    The last two discharge cycles show bumps in voltage, instead of decreasing continuously, it starts increasing sometimes, but only a small amount. Clearly anomalous.
    Any alternative explanations that make sense?

    • SG

      Especially from 21:56 to 22:58 on 4/12/16. That discharge was with a 971 Ohm resistor *and no bias circuit*. Yes, seems anomalous. I can’t imagine how a typical RC circuit + battery would act like that.

      Looking at the broader picture, does it not appear that over time our energy gains with each discharge have diminished. Has the bias circuit actually hindered rather than helped?

      • Frank Acland

        SG, I think the bias circuit helps on the recharge side of things.

      • Frank Acland

        Good point about energy gains diminishing, though. It seems so, yes. However I think we have to take into account that for many days previous to this round of testing I was pumping lots of DC into the cell from external sources. I don’t know what the natural level of this is.

      • Sanjeev

        A battery+RC would discharge from a given starting voltage to an end voltage in a constant time, that is, this time duration will remain unchanged no matter how many times you repeat the discharge (with same voltages).
        But if there is an increase somewhere during the discharge then this time will increase, hinting towards a source of voltage that can gain charge.
        If Frank had a data logger, we would see more such jumps and micro jumps etc. Since a long time is elapsed between measurements, we may be missing such jumps that last for a few seconds to minutes.
        If we could get a trace that shows significant jumping activity, it will kill the battery hypothesis for once and for all, and we can move to other tests, like faraday cage etc.

  • It seems pretty bothersome, at best, to me, to see some of the people posting saying that they are not even slightly moved in the positive direction, regarding The Orbo Effect, even in spite of the results that Frank is getting. Add to that the fact that some of these same people seem to want to talk more about Steorn’s credibility than Frank’s credibility – some even acting as if it is a given that the Steorn dudes are scammers – well, these kinds of comments seem, to me, to be something of an indirect attack on Frank’s credibility, as well as the credibility of the others who are involved in this.

    • Frank Acland

      I think it’s best to let the testing speak for itself. It is interesting enough for me to continue doing it. I have been in touch with Steorn today and they say they will be sending another test pack sometime in the near future.

      • SG

        Is it possible that they fly a person out with the test pack in-hand the entire distance so that we know it hasn’t been tampered with sometime during the transit? LOL.

        • DrD

          Maybe I will collect it and hand carry (by sea!).
          Seriously though, that’s good news.
          Being a bit cheeky (and optimistic): could Frank please have it without potting compound?
          Or at the very least, having had a fews days of thorough testing between potting and shipping.

    • R V

      It’s been given more consideration than it deserves.

  • It seems pretty bothersome, at best, to me, to see some of the people posting saying that they are not even slightly moved in the positive direction, regarding The Orbo Effect, even in spite of the results that Frank is getting. Add to that the fact that some of these same people seem to want to talk more about Steorn’s credibility than Frank’s credibility – some even acting as if it is a given that the Steorn dudes are scammers – well, these kinds of comments seem, to me, to be something of an indirect attack on Frank’s credibility, as well as the credibility of the others who are involved in this.

    • Frank Acland

      I think it’s best to let the testing speak for itself. It is interesting enough for me to continue doing it. I have been in touch with Steorn today and they say they will be sending another test pack sometime in the near future.

      • AWESOME!!! That’s pretty nice of them. Then again, it may also be in their interest to see someone who is not on their payroll testing the same stuff that they’re testing, so that they can compare.

      • SG

        Is it possible that they fly a person out with the test pack in-hand the entire distance so that we know it hasn’t been tampered with sometime during the transit? LOL.

        • DrD

          Maybe I will collect it and hand carry (by sea!).
          Seriously though, that’s good news.
          Being a bit cheeky (and optimistic): could Frank please have it without potting compound?
          Or at the very least, having had a fews days of thorough testing between potting and shipping.

    • Alex Fenrick

      Mark…in fairness… those of us who do not see the test results as proof of Orbo effect have given very valid and respectful reasoning and explanation of what we see could be causing the results and why. Neither devices work…one of them being very expensive…and again all Frank has is promise of a new device “sometime in the near future”. I have heard that from Shaun at Steorn for over 10yrs. You must admit that when you step back and look at this whole situation from a clear unbiased perspective…it would be quite ludicrous to not have skeptics…ones that would never even come back and spend a second posting here. Anyone coming in here to just bash Steorn has no business here and should be banned…but many of us have been here since day 1 of Steorn and deserve to voice our opinions about this journey as long as it is respectful. You must also admit that Steorn operates in a way that would make 99% of intelligent people outside this forum cringe and call scam. I respect what Frank is doing here deeply….it’s just that some of us believe this dead horse has been beaten as far as testing…and opening the devices is the only way to get any answers at this point. Frank is in charge though…so we must respect his decisions on this 100%. I honestly sincerely hope they send Frank a new device and it works as said because my money is waiting….but man…I just can’t shake that “boy who cried wolf” feeling like I used to be able to years past…lets hope “sometime in the near future” really is near….

    • Alex Fenrick

      Mark…in fairness… those of us who do not see the test results as proof of Orbo effect have given very valid and respectful reasoning and explanation of what we see could be causing the results and why. Neither devices work…one of them being very expensive…and again all Frank has is promise of a new device “sometime in the near future”. I have heard that from Shaun at Steorn for over 10yrs. You must admit that when you step back and look at this whole situation from a clear unbiased perspective…it would be quite ludicrous to not have skeptics…ones that would never even come back and spend a second posting here. Anyone coming in here to just bash Steorn has no business here and should be banned…but many of us have been here since day 1 of Steorn and deserve to voice our opinions about this journey as long as it is respectful. You must also admit that Steorn operates in a way that would make 99% of intelligent people outside this forum cringe and call scam. I respect what Frank is doing here deeply….it’s just that some of us believe this dead horse has been beaten as far as testing…and opening the devices is the only way to get any answers at this point. Frank is in charge though…so we must respect his decisions on this 100%. I honestly sincerely hope they send Frank a new device and it works as said because my money is waiting….but man…I just can’t shake that “boy who cried wolf” feeling like I used to be able to years past…lets hope “sometime in the near future” really is near….

    • R V

      It’s been given more consideration than it deserves.

      • Oh, gawd. It looks like the attacks are slowly becoming less indirect and more direct.

        • R V

          What I said wasn’t an ‘attack’. It was a simple observation. If I were uninterested I wouldn’t bother to pay any attention at all.

          But it’s hard to believe Steorn simply cannot send out something that works as they claim. There is obviously a big discrepancy between their internal results and what people see when they ship devices out. It’s not the duty of the customers to spend endless time and effort to show what Steorn has really amounts to something. I would have reasonably stopped after a week or so and concluded it simply doesn’t work.

          • DrD

            All credit to Frank and as we know he’s very busy with everything else as well.

    • R V

      It’s been given more consideration than it deserves.

  • OM

    Same as previous.
    Bad connection/resistor.

  • Frank Acland

    Drd:
    I have now the 147k Ohm resistor on, with the bias circuit — and at the moment it seems quite stable.

    • Ged

      Actually looks like it’s gaining voltage despite the resistor. Fantastic.

      • SG

        So, this will provide some interesting data. Since adding the 147 kOhm resistor, we’ve gone from 52 uw to 54 uw, and gradually increasing (due to the gradual gain in voltage). So we are actually going to see a slow ramp up in power over time. Should be fun to watch!

    • DrD

      That’s really interesting Frank,just what I was hoping.
      Sorry for not watching, I’ve been travelling.

      • Frank Acland

        Yes it’s quite interesting. The voltage dropped overnight sometime. Then I dropped the orbo and made a short! Now it’s recovering towards where it was when I dropped it.

        • DrD

          Curious that it fell over night but I suppose that’s in the nature of the “beast”, as we know from Shaun. Or maybe it was a temperature effect.
          I would anticipate that O1,O2 will rise and stabilise at a level at which power out minus power in = generation rate. Varying Rload (around the 147k) [Or possibly also Rbias] should give different equilibrium levels (of O1,2) because power out is a function of O1,2.

  • Frank Acland

    Drd:
    I have now the 147k Ohm resistor on, with the bias circuit — and at the moment it seems quite stable.

    • Ged

      Actually looks like it’s gaining voltage despite the resistor. Fantastic.

      • SG

        So, this will provide some interesting data. Since adding the 147 kOhm resistor, we’ve gone from 52 uw to 54 uw, and gradually increasing (due to the gradual gain in voltage). So we are actually going to see a slow ramp up in power over time. Should be fun to watch!

    • DrD

      That’s really interesting Frank,just what I was hoping.
      Sorry for not watching, I’ve been travelling.

      • Frank Acland

        Yes it’s quite interesting. The voltage dropped overnight sometime. Then I dropped the orbo and made a short! Now it’s recovering towards where it was when I dropped it.

        • DrD

          Curious that it fell over night but I suppose that’s in the nature of the “beast”, as we know from Shaun. Or maybe it was a temperature effect.
          I would anticipate that O1,O2 will rise and stabilise at a level at which power out minus power in = generation rate. Varying Rload (around the 147k) [Or possibly also Rbias] should give different equilibrium levels (of O1,2) because power out is a function of O1,2.
          Edit: generation rate is probably also a function of O1,2.

  • R V

    What I said wasn’t an ‘attack’. It was a simple observation. If I were uninterested I wouldn’t bother to pay any attention at all.

    But it’s hard to believe Steorn simply cannot send out something that works as they claim. There is obviously a big discrepancy between their internal results and what people see when they ship devices out. It’s not the duty of the customers to spend endless time and effort to show what Steorn has really amounts to something. I would have reasonably stopped after a week or so and concluded it simply doesn’t work.

    • DrD

      All credit to Frank and as we know he’s very busy with everything else as well.

  • OM

    Frank,
    something wrong with 979k Ohm resistor, or you short it time by time.
    Therefore, the 9.09V battery begins to discharge quickly while the Orbo begins to charge quickly. So, we see voltage spike on Orbo and negative voltage spike on battery. Please, check the resistor.

    4/14/2016
    21:03 2.807 9.09
    21:35 2.814 9.09
    22:00 2.823 8.88 *
    23:13 2.83 8.89 *

    4/15/2016
    14:51 2.731 9.06
    15:06 2.737 8.73 *
    15:17 2.756
    15:18 2.763 8.92 *
    15:19 2.76 8.92 *

    • Frank Acland

      Thanks, OM — I did check the resistor, it still reads 979,000 Ohms. It does seem okay. You are right, the battery voltage readings are not uniform. I am using a rather inexpensive “heavy duty” batter (zinc-carbon I believe), not a higher grade alkaline battery.

      • OM

        Then, perhaps, we have the opposite situation?
        The connection is broken most of the time, but restored sometimes? (for example, something wrong with a wires?)
        To check this you can connect directly the resistor to the battery and measure the voltage. Does the battery voltage decreases when the resistor is connected?

        • Frank Acland

          With the resistor attached, circuit not attached to the orbo, the voltage reads 9.04V

  • Alex Fenrick

    Frank…definitely not questioning your ability or methodology, but when looking at the spreadsheets we see numerous random shorts recently making the results a bit hard to follow. Are these shorts due to a physical problem with the device itself or the test equipment? I am just curious why we are seeing so many shorts recently and if this is indicative of something we should look at?

    • Frank Acland

      No, its the problem with the experimenter, not the equipment. Sometimes when I move the device or transport it (I dropped it once too) I get wires crossed. I need to be more careful and probably insulate the resistors and wires better.

      • DrD

        It’s still producing interesting data. The accidental shorts mean we’re under estimating energy out but it’s on the safe side. I wonder what is the origin of the backround fluctuations, it might be ambient temperature but could also have other origins. Also, does it follow a pattern/trend.

      • Alex Fenrick

        Oh gotcha haha forgive me. For how often you are testing and changing configuration every day…it is more than understandable for that to happen from time to time. I see DrD mentioned ambient temperature. Just curious if the room temperature is fairly stable or if it fluctuates due to cooling/heating etc. Thanks for the clarification.

  • Frank Acland

    No, its the problem with the experimenter, not the equipment. Sometimes when I move the device or transport it (I dropped it once too) I get wires crossed. I need to be more careful and probably insulate the resistors and wires better.

    • DrD

      It’s still producing interesting data. The accidental shorts mean we’re under estimating energy out but it’s on the safe side. I wonder what is the origin of the backround fluctuations, it might be ambient temperature but could also have other origins. Also, does it follow a pattern/trend.

  • Frank Acland

    Thanks, OM — I did check the resistor, it still reads 979,000 Ohms. It does seem okay. You are right, the battery voltage readings are not uniform. I am using a rather inexpensive “heavy duty” batter (zinc-carbon I believe), not a higher grade alkaline battery.

    • OM

      Then, perhaps, we have the opposite situation?
      The connection is broken most of the time, but restored sometimes? (for example, something wrong with a wires?)
      To check this you can connect directly the resistor to the battery and measure the voltage. Does the battery voltage decreases when the resistor is connected?

      • Frank Acland

        With the resistor attached, circuit not attached to the orbo, the voltage reads 9.04V

  • DrD

    Frank, I hesitate to ask more of you but is there any possibilty to record the air temperature close to the Orbo pack at periodic intervals, just for a 48 hour period. There’s a hint that O1,2 peaks late evening.

  • DrD

    Frank, I hesitate to ask more of you but is there any possibilty to record the air temperature close to the Orbo pack at periodic intervals, just for a 48 hour period. There’s a hint that O1,2 peaks late evening.

  • SG

    On 4/18, between 19:21 and 20:29 we see an O1-O2 voltage jump from 2.696 to 3.4. During that same period, the voltage of the bias battery also increased from 8.81 to 8.91. This seems to contradict OM’s hypothesis that the O1-O2 voltage jumps are due to a quick discharge of the bias battery, because at least in this instance, *both* the O1-O2 voltage and the bias battery voltages increased. Accordingly, it seems that something else is going on in the Orbo cell.

    • DrD

      I agree and it’s a fairly significant change and is also about the time the temperature dropped. I find it hard to believe it was caused by temperature change though. I was actually looking for a correlation between the three parameters but wasn’t expecting a step function. I suppose it could be due to some domains recovering and I think it’s how Frank said Shaun describes it (step changes).

      • DrD

        Another interesting observation:
        The two readings before the change (19.03 and 19.21) indicate a significant change in bias current.
        Note how the 19.03 reading had 6.348V across the 979,000 Ohm resistor.
        Then at 19.21, the battery V showed a big fall where as the O1,2 actually rose 6.114V across the bias resistor,
        This gives a significant change in bias current from 6.2uA to 6.5uA.
        The load current hardly changed at all.
        Then following this we see the O1,2 jump.

      • Alex Fenrick

        DrD…curious if you recall where Frank and/or Shaun speak about the step changes so I could take a look. Forgive me if I am missing something blatant, but in my experience with charging circuits, the only time I really have seen stepping similar to what we are seeing is through poorly designed or malfunctioning charging circuits…pretty much the exact same behavior in fact. I wish I had kept some of that data from my scope from testing such circuits in the past to compare. While we are obviously dealing with technology I have never touched…I have worked with catalyst time-activated batteries as well as extensive work with NiCad, NiMH, Li-Ion, LiPo etc…and without charging and/or regulating circuits attached…I have typically always observed fairly linear curves without these odd steps that I cannot account for. I definitely must have missed something in the discussion of the steps. I can do some searching if you do not recall how far back those discussions go. I can’t wrap my head around how those numbers would be that large in that time window if the device is in fact charging itself via the cells even if it is a domain issue. If this is nonsense….please just yell at me as I admittedly am not up to speed specifically on the “stepping issue” as I should be!!!

        • DrD

          Hi Alex, I think it was only in a skype conversation between Frank and Shaun, many weeks ago. Perhaps Frank can elucidate. I don’t doubt that a faulty circuit, something as simple as a dry joint could look like that but if Shaun says that’s what they see on a regular basis i would tend to lean towards that being the same effect. I don’t pretend to understand this energy gathering mechanism, unless it’s a trick like a hidden battery. I know there are theories about how it works but I’m not convinced by any of them. Neverthless, something’s generating power.
          I see the output began to fall yesterday after that rise and Frank removed everything, maybe to give it chance to recover.

          • Alex Fenrick

            Thanks DrD….I will see if I can find that conversation. I am just curious to hear Shaun’s reasoning for why we would see such steps.

          • Frank Acland

            There wasn’t much of an explanation from Shaun. Just that he said the charging behaviour of the Orbo is unusual in that it can jump up suddenly, rather than in a linear fashion. He may have said something about domain alignment being involved, but I don’t recall the details.

  • SG

    On 4/18, between 19:21 and 20:29 we see an O1-O2 voltage jump from 2.696 to 3.4. During that same period, the voltage of the bias battery also increased from 8.81 to 8.91. This seems to contradict OM’s hypothesis that the O1-O2 voltage jumps are due to a quick discharge of the bias battery, because at least in this instance, *both* the O1-O2 voltage and the bias battery voltages increased. Accordingly, it seems that something else is going on in the Orbo cell.

    • DrD

      I agree and it’s a fairly significant change and is also about the time the temperature dropped. I find it hard to believe it was caused by temperature change though. I was actually looking for a correlation between the three parameters but wasn’t expecting a step function. I suppose it could be due to some domains recovering and I think it’s how Frank said Shaun describes it (step changes).

      • DrD

        Another interesting observation:
        The two readings before the change (19.03 and 19.21) indicate a significant change in bias current. YES, preceding the jump by quite a few minutes!
        Note how the 19.03 reading had 6.348V across the bias resistor.
        Then at 19.21, the battery V showed a big fall where as O1,2 actually rose to give 6.114V across the bias resistor,
        This requires a significant change in bias current from approx 6.5uA to 6.2uA.
        The load current hardly changed at all.
        Then following this we see O1,2 jump.
        And the bias current fell even more to 5.5uA
        The initial jump (19.03 to 19.21) can not be due to the battery voltage changing as one would expect both potentials to track whereas they actually moved in opposition.

      • Alex Fenrick

        DrD…curious if you recall where Frank and/or Shaun speak about the step changes so I could take a look. Forgive me if I am missing something blatant, but in my experience with charging circuits, the only time I really have seen stepping similar to what we are seeing is through poorly designed or malfunctioning charging circuits…pretty much the exact same behavior in fact. I wish I had kept some of that data from my scope from testing such circuits in the past to compare. While we are obviously dealing with technology I have never touched…I have worked with catalyst time-activated batteries as well as extensive work with NiCad, NiMH, Li-Ion, LiPo etc…and without charging and/or regulating circuits attached…I have typically always observed fairly linear curves without these odd steps that I cannot account for. I definitely must have missed something in the discussion of the steps. I can do some searching if you do not recall how far back those discussions go. I can’t wrap my head around how those numbers would be that large in that time window if the device is in fact charging itself via the cells even if it is a domain issue. If this is nonsense….please just yell at me as I admittedly am not up to speed specifically on the “stepping issue” as I should be!!!

        • DrD

          Hi Alex, I think it was only in a skype conversation between Frank and Shaun, many weeks ago. Perhaps Frank can elucidate. I don’t doubt that a faulty circuit, something as simple as a dry joint could look like that but if Shaun says that’s what they see on a regular basis i would tend to lean towards that being the same effect. I don’t pretend to understand this energy gathering mechanism, unless it’s a trick like a hidden battery. I know there are theories about how it works but I’m not convinced by any of them. Neverthless, something’s generating power.
          I see the output began to fall yesterday after that rise and Frank removed everything, maybe to give it chance to recover.

          • Alex Fenrick

            Thanks DrD….I will see if I can find that conversation. I am just curious to hear Shaun’s reasoning for why we would see such steps.

          • Frank Acland

            There wasn’t much of an explanation from Shaun. Just that he said the charging behaviour of the Orbo is unusual in that it can jump up suddenly, rather than in a linear fashion. He may have said something about domain alignment being involved, but I don’t recall the details.

          • Alex Fenrick

            Thanks for the clarification Frank!

  • OM

    Frank,
    to determine the truth, I recommend connect the 1M resistor to the battery for about an hour and read the voltage every 10 minutes.

  • OM

    1) Equipment:

    a) Digital Multimeter with Temperature Test (DT838)
    http://weihuameter.en.made-in-china.com/product/LMGnPrNUvRps/China-Digital-Multimeter-with-Temperature-Test-DT838-.html

    b) GP Greencell Carbon Zinc 9V battery (1604G)
    http://www.gpbatteries.com/int_en/batteries/primary-batteries/greencell/1604g

    c) 910kOhm 1/4W resistor
    http://www.rpelectronics.com/cf-1-4-910k-910k-ohm-1-4w-pkg-100.html

    2) Checking equipment

    Measuring the resistor resistance: 907kOhm (DT838, 2000k mode).

    Measuring the battery voltage: 9.85V (DT838, 20V mode).

    Measuring the battery voltage with the resistor (907kOhm) in parallel: 9.85V (DT838, 20V mode).

    Calculating the impedance of the voltmeter:

    Measuring the battery voltage with the resistor (907kOhm) in series: 5.17V (DT838, 20V mode).

    5.17 / x = (9.85-5.17) / 907
    x = 5.17 * 907 / (9.85-5.17) = 1002kOhm (about 1MOhm)

    3) Testing:

    The meter is connected to the circuit during the measurement only (about 2-3 seconds).

    Time (hh:mm) Battery voltage (V)
    00:00 9.85
    00:00 Connecting the resistor to the battery.
    00:00 9.85
    00:10 9.85
    00:20 9.85
    00:30 9.84
    00:40 9.84
    00:50 9.84
    01:00 9.84
    01:10 9.84
    01:20 9.84
    01:20 Disconnecting the resistor.
    01:20 9.85

    —————————-

  • Marcus W

    Frank, looking out for your readings ..

  • Alex Fenrick

    Frank…I’m sure you would post it here…but just curious if you or anyone has heard from Steorn as the weeks continue to roll on. I recall recently you remarked they were sending you a new unit, yes?

    • Frank Acland

      Yes, that’s the latest, but still not sure when.

  • Alex Fenrick

    Frank…I’m sure you would post it here…but just curious if you or anyone has heard from Steorn as the weeks continue to roll on. I recall recently you remarked they were sending you a new unit, yes?

    • Frank Acland

      Yes, that’s the latest, but still not sure when.

      • Alex Fenrick

        Thank you Frank!

      • Bob Tavis

        Is Steorn also doing testing and if so are they sharing any results with you? Are they providing any input at all otherwise?

        • Frank Acland

          No I don’t know anything about their internal testing, and I haven’t received any input about my own testing for the last few weeks.

          • Bob Tavis

            It seems to me that close coordination with Steorn would be appropriate considering this has been going on for over two months without any conclusion per se. And yet, you may receive another unit to start this process all over again?

            I applaud your ongoing effort but doesn’t that sort of make the last two month’s effort kind of pointless? I must be missing something but this is coming across as being very strange on the part of a company who started rolling this product out six months ago as a done deal. Does anyone fully understand what is really going on? I certainly don’t.

          • “I applaud your ongoing effort but doesn’t that sort of make the last two month’s effort kind of pointless?”

            No, it doesn’t, and you should already know that.

          • Bob Tavis

            If a new unit arrives that works then two months of effort on one that doesn’t work is what exactly? If it is not pointless then what has been learned to make the effort worthwhile? Wasn’t the whole point of Frank testing in the first place on a unit that worked? Otherwise he is doing Steorn’s work for them. I am not trying to be difficult but just trying to understand what the goal is.

          • Well, then I guess you’ll just have to trust us that it is not pointless.

          • Bob Tavis

            That’s a non answer. The goal should be fairly straightforward enough at least to elucidate what it is. My understanding was that Frank would receive a working device that could be evaluated as he saw fit. The device does not work as advertised and he has spent over two months on it. My question is what is the goal at his point?

          • Well, then you’re just going to have to suck it up. I’ll give whatever answers or non-answers that I want. I have no responsibility, nor does anyone else who is participating, to get you to see that there IS a point (and more than one) to Frank’s tests of the past two months. Frank thinks that there’s a point, so do I, and so do most of the others paying attention to this thread. That should be good enough for you.

          • Bob Tavis

            So, in other words you have no idea. Perhaps someone else paying attention to this thread can give an overview on what the point of testing a non-working device is? If it is to find out why it is not working then essentially it is doing Steorn’s job for them, gratis.

          • Frank Acland

            Well I wouldn’t say the cell we are looking at is non-working. It exhibits some interesting behavior, enough to keep me interested in continued testing. But some people aren’t that impressed, so feel free to ignore.

          • Bob Tavis

            So, it performs as advertised? Then why would Steorn be sending a new device (or component)? It is not a matter of being impressed it is a matter of it meeting expectations. Does what Steorn provided meet your expectations?

            Like I said, I applaud your efforts going on three months now. If you personally feel this is worthwhile that is fine. But I am not sure the objective is clear to everyone.

          • Frank Acland

            No, it does not perform as it was supposed to. But I’ve found a way to do some testing on an Orbo cell, which is better than nothing, but not ideal, of course.

          • Bob Tavis

            Thank you.

          • Stop trying to put words in my mouth. I know that there ARE points to this testing, and I don’t need to justify it to you.

          • Bob Tavis

            It is not a matter of justification it is simply a question about the objectives. Why are you so touchy about this? I would think you and all who are testing would be eager to share their thoughts. Frank doesn’t seem to have a problem in discussing and he has invested a good deal of time on this.

          • davidbyrden

            Well, if you insist on being so high-handed and treating Bob as a lesser being who doesn’t deserve the knowledge held by the elite.. then we poor plebs are free to speculate, are we not?

            We could speculate, for example, that;
            – Steorn appear to be perpetrating an investment fraud
            – They do not want a Google search to find comments like “oCube simply doesn’t work” as that would expose their fraud.
            – The ongoing investigations on this forum, almost incomprehensible to the non-technical investors, maintain the illusion that there’s a real Orbo Effect. Why else would people be working on it?
            – Therefore this entire forum is somehow promoted or funded by Steorn

            Of course this is mere speculation. But it’s the kind of thing that runs through people’s minds when they are told “You don’t need to know”.

          • You’re misrepresenting me. I didn’t say, “you don’t need to know,” I said that he needs to figure it out, himself. Of course, Frank came in and explained a bunch of stuff to him that was already known, and would have been known to anyone who was paying careful attention. I, personally, hate explaining things to people when I think that they should already know, or be able to find out, easily.

          • Bob Tavis

            Wait a minute. I only came here a week ago so I do not know all that transpired over the last two months. And asking questions is typically the way you find things out. And I did pay attention to what Frank said and thanked him. If you hate explaining things then do not respond and let someone else who has slightly more tact than you have respond. It’s not like I was grilling or demanding anything from you or anyone.

          • Oh gawd. Coming here a week ago does not mean that you can’t read the blog posts that were made before that. They’re still up. Well, whatever. If you want me to not respond to you, then I will honor that wish of yours. I will ignore all of your future posts. This will be my last response to you.

  • Frank Acland

    No I don’t know anything about their internal testing, and I haven’t received any input about my own testing for the last few weeks.

    • Bob Tavis

      It seems to me that close coordination with Steorn would be appropriate considering this has been going on for over two months without any conclusion per se. And yet, you may receive another unit to start this process all over again?

      I applaud your ongoing effort but doesn’t that sort of make the last two month’s effort kind of pointless? I must be missing something but this is coming across as being very strange on the part of a company who started rolling this product out six months ago as a done deal. Does anyone fully understand what is really going on? I certainly don’t.

  • Bob Tavis

    So, in other words you have no idea. Perhaps someone else paying attention to this thread can give an overview on what the point of testing a non-working device is? If it is to find out why it is not working then essentially it is doing Steorn’s job for them, gratis.

    • Frank Acland

      Well I wouldn’t say the cell we are looking at is non-working. It exhibits some interesting behavior, enough to keep me interested in continued testing. But some people aren’t that impressed, so feel free to ignore.

    • Stop trying to put words in my mouth. I know that there ARE points to this testing, and I don’t need to justify it to you.

  • Frank Acland

    No, it does not perform as it was supposed to. But I’ve found a way to do some testing on an Orbo cell, which is better than nothing, but not ideal, of course.

  • Okay, so, I have a question for all of the people who think that The Orbo Effect is real:

    What do you guys think of the possibility that there is nothing wrong with the charge controller, but that some kind of “new physics” that we do not, yet, understand that is part of The Orbo Effect might be causing the charge controller to not act the same way that it would if it was hooked up to a more “normal” energy source?

  • gdaigle

    Steorn posted on their Facebook site: “Folks, we’ll be posting a new video around the middle of next week so please tune in then!” So perhaps we will hear the outcome of their charger redesign.

    • Frank Acland

      Thanks, Greg. Glad to hear of some action.

    • Alex Fenrick

      Thanks for the info! Something tells me this will be a video to facilitate yet another well placed delay since I would think Frank would have received some sort of device by now if not. Just a thought….

  • gdaigle

    Steorn posted on their Facebook site: “Folks, we’ll be posting a new video around the middle of next week so please tune in then!” So perhaps we will hear the outcome of their charger redesign.

    • Frank Acland

      Thanks, Greg. Glad to hear of some action.

    • Alex Fenrick

      Thanks for the info! Something tells me this will be a video to facilitate yet another well placed delay since I would think Frank would have received some sort of device by now if not. Just a thought….

      • Bob Tavis

        Why didn’t they just give Frank the OCube unit Pat Corbett was using for months that he said worked? I mean if that unit had been field tested so extensively I would have thought it a prime candidate for external inspection. I doubt Pat would have minded as it was all for a good cause in which he is invested.

        • Alex Fenrick

          That is a valid question…but if it WAS in fact the only working Orbo they have…I can see where they would not want to let go of it. On the flipside thought…you can see rows and rows of Orbos in the Irish Times interview video that Shaun says are being finished testing and packaging…the odds of every single one of them failing yet Pat’s working would be out of this world. It makes absolutely no sense they would be ready to go in boxes if none of them were tested…and it sure makes no sense that any would have been shipped….

          • Bob Tavis

            And it makes even less sense to give units to Frank for testing sending him on a fool’s errand for a couple of months.

            If Pat’s was the only OCube working then Shaun mislead saying the failure rate was 40% (not 99.99% in fact). Or Pat Corbett was misleading when he said his was working for months. In either case doesn’t it raise questions about the veracity of both? Something ain’t right.

          • Alex Fenrick

            I would say you are probably correct on all accounts at this point…

    • Matt

      And they stopped buying Likes from Pakistan.

  • Sanjeev

    Looks like Steorn sent another email with more apologies.
    http://dispatchesfromthefuture.com/2016/04/steorn-stirs/
    They are not totally gone yet. Hopefully we will hear some more next week.

  • Sanjeev

    Looks like Steorn sent another email with more apologies.
    http://dispatchesfromthefuture.com/2016/04/steorn-stirs/
    They are not totally gone yet. Hopefully we will hear some more next week.

  • Frank Acland

    The latest discharge test has been quite interesting. I decided to take the bias circuit off and just left the 64k Ohm resistance on. Over the last couple of days during the discharge, while the trend is downward, there has been quite a lot of voltage surges and spikes in the process. The latest readings are at the bottom of this growing spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UBIA4JTDb_kBwoytR9LP7OP7tH63yUeiPn2kKye4frY/edit#gid=0

    • DrD

      Hello Frank,
      Yes, it does look a bit like it’s reaching a plateau but not really long enough yet to be certain about that. It might eventually fall to zero.
      I’ve also been wondering if those “cycles” are a kind of hysteresis.
      If we assume that the internal generator is not able to supply all of the output because the 64k was a little too small then O1,2 will fall. HOWEVER, as O1,2 falls the output also falls because it’s related to the potential of O1,2 but not just linearly in fact it falls according to the square of V (P=V^2/R).
      So, if generated power is less than output power then O1,2 falls until generated power is greater than output power. For a critically damped system it will reach equilibrium and stay there but if there’s some hysteresis it will oscillate. It might or might not settle down given enough time. It’s only a theory of course.
      I think there will be a value of R which should create this behaviour at different levels of O1,2. When we were doing the 146kOhm trial we saw this but with the bias applied. I calculated that we could possibly achieve the same “oscillating equilibrium” WITHOUT bias by using 235k for O1,2 = 2.5V and 193K for O1,2 = 3.4V.
      I appreciate all this isn’t answering the question a lot of followers are asking but it’s interesting all the same.

      • Frank Acland

        Thanks DrD, can you think of a situation in which a battery or capacitor might act like this?

        • DrD

          No I really can’t. Unfortunately that doesn’t prove it couldn’t. I suspect some one will come up with a theory, like a faulty control chip.

          • Ged

            I guess the real question is what is the cumulative energy use looking like now?

          • DrD

            On paper, it totals a mere 8mWh
            https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UBIA4JTDb_kBwoytR9LP7OP7tH63yUeiPn2kKye4frY/edit?pref=2&pli=1#gid=923656187
            But that’s not very accurate because it’s been reset to zero many times and there’s been quite a few accidents where unknow energy was extracted. Also some unknown input events.
            What’s interesting at the moment is that it has no “conventional” input but seems to be outputting a fairly constant 48uW. The cell voltage (O1-2) is very low at only about 1.7V so it may not be working (generating) efficiently and there’s a hint of it still falling very slowly so in a few days it might reach zero but so far it’s been doing this for a few days.
            I think we have evidence that it can sustain a sufficiently small output of about 15 to 20uW with O1,2 up at about 3V with no applied bias.
            Personally, I don’t believe there’s any kind of battery in there but that’s only an opinion. SO to me, the question would be, first can we prove the 15uW won’t degrade O1-2) and then can we exclude the possibilty of 15uW from conventional energy harvesting.

  • Frank Acland

    The latest discharge test has been quite interesting. I decided to take the bias circuit off and just left the 64k Ohm resistance on. Over the last couple of days during the discharge, while the trend is downward, there has been quite a lot of voltage surges and spikes in the process. The latest readings are at the bottom of this growing spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UBIA4JTDb_kBwoytR9LP7OP7tH63yUeiPn2kKye4frY/edit#gid=0

    • DrD

      Hello Frank,
      Yes, it does look a bit like it’s reaching a plateau but not really long enough yet to be certain about that. It might eventually fall to zero.
      I’ve also been wondering if those “cycles” are a kind of hysteresis.
      If we assume that the internal generator is not able to supply all of the output because the 64k was a little too small then O1,2 will fall. HOWEVER, as O1,2 falls the output also falls because it’s related to the potential of O1,2 but not just linearly in fact it falls according to the square of V (P=V^2/R).
      So, if generated power is less than output power then O1,2 falls until generated power is greater than output power. For a critically damped system it will reach equilibrium and stay there but if there’s some hysteresis it will oscillate. It might or might not settle down given enough time. It’s only a theory of course.
      I think there will be a value of R which should create this behaviour at different levels of O1,2. When we were doing the 146kOhm trial we saw this but with the bias applied. I calculated that we could possibly achieve the same “oscillating equilibrium” WITHOUT bias by using 235k for O1,2 = 2.5V and 193K for O1,2 = 3.4V.
      I appreciate all this isn’t answering the question a lot of followers are asking but it’s interesting all the same.

      • Frank Acland

        Thanks DrD, can you think of a situation in which a battery or capacitor might act like this?

        • DrD

          No I really can’t. Unfortunately that doesn’t prove it couldn’t. I suspect some one will come up with a theory, like a faulty control chip.
          Edit: I think our best hope lies in Steorn sending you a good one.

          • Ged

            I guess the real question is what is the cumulative energy use looking like now?

          • DrD

            On paper, it totals a mere 8mWh
            https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UBIA4JTDb_kBwoytR9LP7OP7tH63yUeiPn2kKye4frY/edit?pref=2&pli=1#gid=923656187
            But that’s not very accurate because it’s been reset to zero many times and there’s been quite a few accidents where unknow energy was extracted. Also some unknown input events.
            What’s interesting at the moment is that it has no “conventional” input but seems to be outputting a fairly constant 48uW. The cell voltage (O1-2) is very low at only about 1.7V so it may not be working (generating) efficiently and there’s a hint of it still falling very slowly so in a few days it might reach zero but so far it’s been doing this for a few days.
            I think we have evidence that it can sustain a sufficiently small output of about 15 to 20uW with O1,2 up at about 3V with no applied bias.
            Personally, I don’t believe there’s any kind of battery in there but that’s only an opinion. SO to me, the question would be, first can we prove the 15uW won’t degrade O1-2) and then can we exclude the possibilty of 15uW from conventional energy harvesting.

  • davidbyrden

    There must be outsiders who come to this site looking for the results of your Orbo testing. I’m not aware of any other published source of tests on the Ocube.

    Those results are seemingly hard to find. Google returns a long list of pages discussing your tests (some of them deleted) and it’s difficult to find the latest page. The visitor surely wants a short, comprehensible statement of the results; but they are confronted by long discussions of test setups, documents full of data, and discussions of what to do next.

    I suggest that you create a page, at a permanent URL but with its contents updated as needed. Give this page a clear title and headers (such as “Latest conclusions of Ocube testing”) that lets the visitor pick it out easily from the Google result page. And, of course, your page would contain a single paragraph summarising what you have learned.

    • Frank Acland

      Thanks for the suggestion, David. I may do something like that, but first I’d like to see what the next move from Steorn will be, and see how much I should invest in more rigorous testing. They said they’d be posting a new video this week. I hope at some point they’ll send devices that work as they should.

  • Frank Acland

    Thanks for the suggestion, David. I may do something like that, but first I’d like to see what the next move from Steorn will be, and see how much I should invest in more rigorous testing. They said they’d be posting a new video this week. I hope at some point they’ll send devices that work as they should.

  • Alex Fenrick

    We are mere hours from Steorn posting a video as promised on Facebook last week. Shaun at Steorn commented on March 22nd that they were testing the solution to the charge controller board problem…so I would think he should be presenting good news after this amount of time for testing. A video explaining further delays will be the last nail in the coffin for this skeptic lol. This should be interesting…..

    Orbo facebook page last week:
    “Folks, we’ll be posting a new video around the middle of next week so please tune in then!”

    • Frank Acland

      I hope there’s some progress to report in getting their products sorted out. Delays and setbacks have been the norm for Steorn over the years, but I’m not ready to give up on them, especially since I continue to see quite interesting behaviour from the cell I am testing. I’m glad they are continuing to work away on Orbo.

  • Alex Fenrick

    We are mere hours from Steorn posting a video as promised on Facebook last week. Shaun at Steorn commented on March 22nd that they were testing the solution to the charge controller board problem…so I would think he should be presenting good news after this amount of time for testing. A video explaining further delays will be the last nail in the coffin for this skeptic lol. This should be interesting…..

    Orbo facebook page last week:
    “Folks, we’ll be posting a new video around the middle of next week so please tune in then!”

    • Frank Acland

      I hope there’s some progress to report in getting their products sorted out. Delays and setbacks have been the norm for Steorn over the years, but I’m not ready to give up on them, especially since I continue to see quite interesting behaviour from the cell I am testing. I’m glad they are continuing to work away on Orbo.

      • Alex Fenrick

        Fair enough Frank…I can understand your perspective. For me, I think it is about time to submit to the age old tale of the boy who cried wolf. Shaun has been quite successful keeping me coming back for over 10 years with his carrot on stick…I guess talking about him this very moment is quite evident of that lol. This will either be the most interesting road to the impossible someday…or one of the greatest iconic scams of the energy field ever. Between this, the Rossi saga and possibility of LENR …the fringe energy field is living in quite interesting times…..

      • davidbyrden

        Frank, did you ever take a commercial battery – like the one we can see inside the Ocube – and put it through similar tests, to see how it behaves when it’s slowly running out of energy?

        • Alex Fenrick

          I gotta give David a gold star on this one. How did we not think of this before now? I think I am gonna try to create an Ocube simulator and see if I can get similar results.

          • Frank Acland

            Please do, Alex. I was thinking about trying it myself too.

  • Alex Fenrick

    I gotta give David a gold star on this one. How did we not think of this before now? I think I am gonna try to create an Ocube simulator and see if I can get similar results.

    • Frank Acland

      Please do, Alex. I was thinking about trying it myself too.

  • DrD

    Even more interesting behaviour there Frank:
    It was fairly stable over the previous few days in that it was outputting about 40uW whilst O1-2 remained almost constant at about 1.7V.
    You removed the load and O1,2 “shot” up to 2.4V in only about 2 1/2 hours.
    You added a load and it output about 40uW (average) and “quickly” fell back to about 1.6V in less than 1 1/2 hours.
    This very clearly confirms the memory effect that we discussed earlier.
    I think I could simulate this behaviour with a small capacitor (maybe with a moderate series resistance) in parallel with a large capacitor with a large series resistance.
    If I get time, I might have a go (with the simulation).

    Maybe I could see if a battery (flat battery) could logically be included.
    Dave

    • Frank Acland

      I decided to let it sit for a day and try again with the same load and see if it acts differently. Shaun told me once that it takes time to recover from a discharge.

    • Sounds good, to me. Isn’t The Orbo Power Pack kinda made like a capacitor? if you can cause The Orbo Effect to happen with only “normal” capacitors and/or electrets, then we might be able to start making our own Orbo-Effect-powered machines, and sidestep all of the incompetence that these clowns at Steorn are putting us through if we want to see Orbo-Effect-powered machines up and running.

      • Alex Fenrick

        Without being able to analyze and replicate the internal unknown material of the cells, you would not be able to replicate the Orbo Effect (if it exists) as it is claimed to be different than anything found in a traditional capacitor and/or electret. There is no known way to get anything like the Orbo effect out of a capacitor or electret…their behavior is well understood.

        • Dave, don’t be discouraged by people like Alex Fenrick. He does NOT know that there is no way to get a “normal” capacitor and/or electret to cause The Orbo Effect. No matter how many times humans have gone over it, in the past, there’s always a chance that they missed something, and it is possible that it will be found through future experimentation. If you want to try to replicate, Dave, go for it.

          • Alex Fenrick

            So let me understand your statement there Mark. Dave should not be discouraged by “people like me” who point out that components like a capacitor that are used in pretty much every electronic device on the planet…a technology that was invented in 1745 is well known NOT to be able to produce The Orbo Effect aka over-unity is all of a sudden a logical choice to start looking for how to replicate the impossible?!? That is pretty much like trying to build a quantum computer…but stepping back to traditional transistor technology when you find that you do not understand the underlying process of how a qubits state gets set. Using basic building blocks of a technology or a field is one thing of course….but to look at this with such a rudimentary view of considering traditional capacitors or electrets as the route to now explore makes absolutely no sense to me.

      • DrD

        Hi Mark. The simulation I mentioned was only a computer simulation based on Capacitances (R-C circuit) to attempt to reproduce the short term and long term charge-discharging behaviour based on a generic battery or some kind of generic generator. Sorry if I raised your hopes that I could make a capacitor work as a generator. Anyway, YES your right I believe the claim is that the electrets act as very large capacitors amongst other things.

        • It’s cool, man. Computer simulations are cool, too. I was just saying to not be discouraged by pseudoskeptics who think that they need to understand something before other people are allowed to do experiments.

  • Frank Acland

    It’s been another interesting day with the Orbo cell. I had left the cell to recuperate for a day and a night, and put on the 77.7k Ohm resistor It dropped pretty hard for the first couple of hours, hitting below 1.5 volts, and this afternoon and evening it has been climbing, now over 1.8 volts. I’m never quite sure what to expect — https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UBIA4JTDb_kBwoytR9LP7OP7tH63yUeiPn2kKye4frY/edit#gid=0

    • SG

      Does seem mysterious and not what one would expect from an RC + battery circuit, but I guess we already knew that based on our previous observations. While the power output is still far lower than expected, there nonetheless appears to be energy coming out of the Orbo cell, and from whence is still up in the air.

      • Alex Fenrick

        SG….you would agree that “Orbo cell” could absolutely still be a battery whether it is a tradtional one that the circuitry is allowing discharge rates that Steorn had designed or a catalyst type battery correct? I just want to make sure that the behavior Frank is seeing is not assumed to be “Orbo effect” as we are still yet to find evidence of that….

        • SG

          It is unclear. The only way to know for sure is to extract enough energy from the unit to rule out a battery based on volume/weight of the unit. At the rate we are extracting energy, it would take a loooong time.

          So, Sanjeev took a different approach in comparing the Orbo’s behavior to what would be expected from a typical RC + battery circuit, and made some preliminary determinations that it was unlikely to be such. DrD did some further analysis and provides some speculation above. We have noticed behavior over the course of the test that does not fit with the battery hypothesis, such as sudden voltage jumps and cyclical behavior.

          But again, with the unit we have, with the performance characteristics it exhibits, there is no way to draw any certain kind of conclusions. So, we’ll have to wait for additional hardware, which Steorn has promised to send.

          • Jarea

            So, in short after 10 months of testing, Frank, please, could you answer the question.
            does it work or i doesnt?

          • Frank Acland

            The units I was sent did not work like they were supposed to. But I have seen some unusual activity in during testing which makes me think they still might have something.

          • Jarea

            If Orbo goes into selling to users, then you need to provide a working product. Don´t forget how much you have to pay for that Orbo (around 1000$). If it doesn´t work please dont be shy to say that this was a SCAM. A simple battery.
            They are responsible and guilty of their own reputation. I think Frank it doesn´t help to stay on the doubt so that they don´t receive the feedback they deserve.
            This is very sad, and if we have to learn about that, it means that there are people that are able to lie a lot, in order to sell their products, even if those products are not ready. The are able to produce a great marketing campaign and convince you but in the end is only smoke. That make other adventures that may be true more difficult to believe.

          • Bob Tavis

            Selling a working product is basically true for anything sold. Look at the problems Samsung is having. If the proper engineering is not done prior to a product being sold chances are there will be problems. It is just common sense. The testimonies of a working Orbo had only come from Steorn or people close to them. No outsider could confirm it. It is hard to imagine that 100% failure rate of Orbo was not caught before being sold. That is either incompetence at the highest level or it is a con.

            With the shoddy history of Steorn over the last ten years the latter seems most probable. Not one of their various Orbo iterations has ever been proven to work by anyone outside of the company. Why they thought they could actually sell a non-working product baffles the mind. What could be the possible motivation for doing something so idiotic? Perhaps we will never know. As it stands right now Steorn is non-existent.

            Having worked for an electronics manufacturer for 23 years I know first hand the potential problems with releasing a product before it has been properly alpha and beta tested. But often the demands of marketing override engineering concerns and there is always a price to pay for that shortsightedness. Large companies can usually recover from such mistakes but for small companies it can be death.

            Personally I never thought Steorn really had engineering expertise and for a company offering free energy the stakes are very high to be able to demonstrate that you have what you say you have. The bottom line with Steorn is either incompetence or a con. Even worse is if it was an incompetent con.

          • Zephir

            I still think, that Steorn technology could work, particularly because many similar devices emerged.

            The Steorn Orbo project was just killed by poor implementation, based on
            cheap Chinese components without deeper experience in electronics and
            testing. I do appreciate your patient work, despite your lack of experience is apparent here too.

          • Bob Tavis

            If it worked why would Steorn have stopped shipping units and basically gone into oblivion?

        • The Steorn Facebook page has gone…
          https://www.facebook.com/thebatteryisdead/
          no more available…
          Seems they have problems to get their hardware to run…too bad…
          Frank did you now finally extract a Orbo cell from the goop ?

    • DrD

      Hi Frank, I attempted that simulation and this is a reasonable analogue that comes close to emulating the behaviour.
      Please note, I am NOT claimng that this is necessarily what’s actually inside, just that it is one (simplistic) possibilty.
      The values are not correct, I spent much time trying to optimise them to emulate the actual behaviour over the correct timescales but gave up and for that reason I haven’t posted plots of the simulation results but I can if anyones interested.
      V3 is either a battery OR a generator (e.g. Orbo Electret). It’s output voltage I assumed was fixed but it would still work if allowed to change slowly.
      C1 is a very large capacitor, representing the main capacitance (possibly of the ORBO cell itself. R1 is the internal or series resistance of the generator (OR the Orbo cell). C2 isa relatively smaller capacitance across the output terminals (O1,2). R2 must be another internal resistance. The way it works is that C1 charges (from V3) or discharges (Via R2 and the load) very slowly, taking hours or days to show a significant change.
      C2, being smaller and with less series resistance is able to discharge and charge fairly quickly.
      With no load (no output), C2 (O1,2) will charge fairly rapidly to the same potential as C1 and will then only change very slowly, at the same slow rate that C1 is charging at.
      This simple combination explains why we see fairly rapid changes on output voltage that at some point change rate (slow down) or even change direction.
      It does not explain the jumps or small “cyclical” bahaviour that’s often superimposed on the background rate. I assume these are related to the electret behaviour.

      • DrD

        An improved match:

  • Frank Acland

    It’s been another interesting day with the Orbo cell. I had left the cell to recuperate for a day and a night, and put on the 77.7k Ohm resistor It dropped pretty hard for the first couple of hours, hitting below 1.5 volts, and this afternoon and evening it has been climbing, now over 1.8 volts. I’m never quite sure what to expect — https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UBIA4JTDb_kBwoytR9LP7OP7tH63yUeiPn2kKye4frY/edit#gid=0

    • SG

      Does seem mysterious and not what one would expect from an RC + battery circuit, but I guess we already knew that based on our previous observations. While the power output is still far lower than expected, there nonetheless appears to be energy coming out of the Orbo cell, and from whence is still up in the air.

      • Alex Fenrick

        SG….you would agree that “Orbo cell” could absolutely still be a battery whether it is a tradtional one that the circuitry is allowing discharge rates that Steorn had designed or a catalyst type battery correct? I just want to make sure that the behavior Frank is seeing is not assumed to be “Orbo effect” as we are still yet to find evidence of that….

        • SG

          It is unclear. The only way to know for sure is to extract enough energy from the unit to rule out a battery based on volume/weight of the unit. At the rate we are extracting energy, it would take a loooong time.

          So, Sanjeev took a different approach in comparing the Orbo’s behavior to what would be expected from a typical RC + battery circuit, and made some preliminary determinations that it was unlikely to be such. DrD did some further analysis and provides some speculation above. We have noticed behavior over the course of the test that does not fit with the battery hypothesis, such as sudden voltage jumps and cyclical behavior.

          But again, with the unit we have, with the performance characteristics it exhibits, there is no way to draw any certain kind of conclusions. So, we’ll have to wait for additional hardware, which Steorn has promised to send.

    • DrD

      Hi Frank, I attempted that simulation and this is a reasonable analogue that comes close to emulating the behaviour.
      Please note, I am NOT claimng that this is necessarily what’s actually inside, just that it is one (simplistic) possibilty.
      The values are not correct, I spent much time trying to optimise them to emulate the actual behaviour over the correct timescales but gave up and for that reason I haven’t posted plots of the simulation results but I can if anyones interested.
      V3 is either a battery OR a generator (e.g. Orbo Electret). It’s output voltage I assumed was fixed but it would still work if allowed to change slowly.
      C1 is a very large capacitor, representing the main capacitance (possibly of the ORBO cell itself. R1 is the internal or series resistance of the generator (OR the Orbo cell). C2 isa relatively smaller capacitance across the output terminals (O1,2). R2 must be another internal resistance. The way it works is that C1 charges (from V3) or discharges (Via R2 and the load) very slowly, taking hours or days to show a significant change.
      C2, being smaller and with less series resistance is able to discharge and charge fairly quickly.
      With no load (no output), C2 (O1,2) will charge fairly rapidly to the same potential as C1 and will then only change very slowly, at the same slow rate that C1 is charging at.
      This simple combination explains why we see fairly rapid changes on output voltage that at some point change rate (slow down) or even change direction.
      It does not explain the jumps or small “cyclical” bahaviour that’s often superimposed on the background rate. I assume these are related to the electret behaviour.

      • DrD

        An improved match:

  • Matt

    According to the facebook announcement a video was due “around the middle of next (this) week”. It’s now the end of the week and there is nothing. All in all Steorn is not acting like a proper company, it just seems to be a chaotic mess.

    • Phillip

      Steorn is acting exactly like Steorn. It’s been a decade of: 1) Huge announcement, 2) Slow build up, 3) Promise to reveal, 4) MIssed due date, 5) Farcical Delivery, 6) Radio Silence.

      There should be zero expectation of anything concrete coming out of Steorn because they’ve proven over and over they are incapable of delivering anything concrete.

      The most interesting thing they have done during the entirety of the Orbo history is having the o-girl pop out from under the table with a beer during their Orbo release video. If that doesn’t show the mentality with which they’re approaching this whole endeavor I’m not quite sure what does.

    • davidbyrden

      The promise of a video is puzzling; I don’t see that ANY video could possibly undo the ruin that Steorn have brought on their reputation by releasing non functional “products”.
      Imagine if the video showed Steorn’s directors living it up on a tropical island, saying “Thanks to all our investors – you suckers!” That’s the only video worth releasing at this stage.

    • Bob Tavis

      The video is up on their FB page: https://www.facebook.com/thebatteryisdead/

  • Alex Fenrick

    So let me understand your statement there Mark. Dave should not be discouraged by “people like me” who point out that components like a capacitor that are used in pretty much every electronic device on the planet…a technology that was invented in 1745 is well known NOT to be able to produce The Orbo Effect aka over-unity is all of a sudden a logical choice to start looking for how to replicate the impossible?!? That is pretty much like trying to build a quantum computer…but stepping back to traditional transistor technology when you find that you do not understand the underlying process of how a qubits state gets set. Using basic building blocks of a technology or a field is one thing of course….but to look at this with such a rudimentary view of considering traditional capacitors or electrets as the route to now explore makes absolutely no sense to me.

  • Phillip

    Steorn is acting exactly like Steorn. It’s been a decade of: 1) Huge announcement, 2) Slow build up, 3) Promise to reveal, 4) MIssed due date, 5) Farcical Delivery, 6) Radio Silence.

    There should be zero expectation of anything concrete coming out of Steorn because they’ve proven over and over they are incapable of delivering anything concrete.

    The most interesting thing they have done during the entirety of the Orbo history is having the o-girl pop out from under the table with a beer during their Orbo release video. If that doesn’t show the mentality with which they’re approaching this whole endeavor I’m not quite sure what does.

  • DFarwell

    So there was no video that they promised on facebook? Cant that company keep even one promise?

    • Bob Tavis

      From Orbo FB page: “Please bear with us a little longer folks, we will be live streaming final tests later this week.”

  • Bob Tavis

    From Orbo FB page: “Please bear with us a little longer folks, we will be live streaming final tests later this week.”

  • davidbyrden

    The “product release” may lead to another visit by a journalist. Now, we’d all like more information from inside Steorn, so I hope you don’t mind me posting this here (Steorn’s FB page would be a better place, but of course they would delete it):

    To the next journalist who visits Steorn; engineers and accountants are usually members of certifying institutions (such as the IEEE). As such, they are obliged to *tell the truth* regarding their professional work. When you visit Steorn, ask to speak with such individuals.

  • davidbyrden

    The “product release” may lead to another visit by a journalist. Now, we’d all like more information from inside Steorn, so I hope you don’t mind me posting this here (Steorn’s FB page would be a better place, but of course they would delete it):

    To the next journalist who visits Steorn; engineers and accountants are usually members of certifying institutions (such as the IEEE). As such, they are obliged to *tell the truth* regarding their professional work. When you visit Steorn, ask to speak with such individuals.

  • Marcus W

    Frank, do you plan on updating the excel sheet ?

    • Frank Acland

      Hi Markus,

      Yes, I just bought an Arduino system and hope to be able to have automated measurements posted. I need to first figure this system out.

      Meanwhile you can watch Steorn’s livestream here: https://www.twitch.tv/orboteam

      • Bob Tavis

        Any word from Steorn on sending new Orbo cell now that their testing is completed? And I see they have started selling product again on their website.

        • Bob Tavis

          Oh, they are “sold out” again. Business must be brisk.

      • DrD

        Any update Frank, on either of the units?
        I found your work to be far more interesting than watching the livestream.

  • Dave

    Steorn’s video just went up on Facebook.

    • davidbyrden

      History shows us that fraudsters will say almost anything, but they never, ever come out and say “I was lying all the time”. They don’t need absolution; they don’t care about your emotional damage. If they did, they wouldn’t be taking your money in the first place.

      I get the sense that many of Steorn’s audience will keep on hoping and believing until they hear Steorn say that the devices don’t work. Well, I think Steorn will never, ever say that. They will never give us closure. We need to accept them for what they are. We need to let go.

  • davidbyrden

    You know, with Steorn behaving in my opinion like the “Mr. Bean” of technology (I can’t accept that even the participants believed what they were saying), I have to wonder if this isn’t all some kind of charade.
    Do you think it’s possible that Steorn could be involved in money laundering for professional criminals? I mean, 20 million Euros supposedly went in, but where did it go TO?

  • Hi Frank. When are you going to extract an Orbo cell from it ?

  • davidbyrden

    “steornnews.com” is apparently gone. The domain is paid up until next year, so I have to assume that the website was deleted.
    Was the website owner involved with Steorn? Because this is unusual behaviour. When you get tired of your website, usually you ignore it, you don’t take the trouble to delete it. The site was left unattended for weeks on prior occasions.

    • Bob Tavis

      That site and several others belong to Craig Brown from Australia. He has been an ardent Steorn supporter since 2006. He calls anyone who does not support Steorn and other Woo, pseudoskeptics. On the old Steorn forum he was practically rabid to anyone who said anything disparaging about Steorn. This is another one of his websites: http://freeenergytruth.com/

  • davidbyrden

    WELL, THE STEORN INVESTORS SHOULD BE SMILING NOW.

    They should be rubbing their hands with glee as the value of their shares climbs through the roof.
    And why?
    Because the world is suddenly full of “Pokemon Go” players; people wandering the outdoors with a permanently “on” phone, running an app that’s a battery hog.

    What do those people, every single one of them, need now? A self-charging battery, of course!

    So; the investors should be smiling. They shouldn’t be angry and sheepish and frustrated.

    If you’re a Steorn investor, would you mind speaking up here? Tell us how you feel.
    Did you learn anything from this whole debacle?
    Was it “pay attention in high-school physics”?

  • Jarea

    So, in short after 10 months of testing, Frank, please, could you answer the question.
    does it work or i doesnt?

    • Frank Acland

      The units I was sent did not work like they were supposed to. But I have seen some unusual activity in during testing which makes me think they still might have something.

      • Jarea

        If Orbo goes into selling to users, then you need to provide a working product. Don´t forget how much you have to pay for that Orbo (around 1000$). If it doesn´t work please dont be shy to say that this was a SCAM. A simple battery.
        They are responsible and guilty of their own reputation. I think Frank it doesn´t help to stay on the doubt so that they don´t receive the feedback they deserve.
        This is very sad, and if we have to learn about that, it means that there are people that are able to lie a lot, in order to sell their products, even if those products are not ready. The are able to produce a great marketing campaign and convince you but in the end is only smoke. That make other adventures that may be true more difficult to believe.

        • Bob Tavis

          Selling a working product is basically true for anything sold. Look at the problems Samsung is having. If the proper engineering is not done prior to a product being sold chances are there will be problems. It is just common sense. The testimonies of a working Orbo had only come from Steorn or people close to them. No outsider could confirm it. It is hard to imagine that 100% failure rate of Orbo was not caught before being sold. That is either incompetence at the highest level or it is a con.

          With the shoddy history of Steorn over the last ten years the latter seems most probable. Not one of their various Orbo iterations has ever been proven to work by anyone outside of the company. Why they thought they could actually sell a non-working product baffles the mind. What could be the possible motivation for doing something so idiotic? Perhaps we will never know. As it stands right now Steorn is non-existent.

          Having worked for an electronics manufacturer for 23 years I know first hand the potential problems with releasing a product before it has been properly alpha and beta tested. But often the demands of marketing override engineering concerns and there is always a price to pay for that shortsightedness. Large companies can usually recover from such mistakes but for small companies it can be death.

          Personally I never thought Steorn really had engineering expertise and for a company offering free energy the stakes are very high to be able to demonstrate that you have what you say you have. The bottom line with Steorn is either incompetence or a con. Even worse is if it was an incompetent con.

      • Zephir

        I still think, that Steorn technology could work, particularly because many similar devices emerged.

        The Steorn Orbo project was just killed by poor implementation, based on
        cheap Chinese components without deeper experience in electronics and
        testing. I do appreciate your patient work, despite your lack of experience is apparent here too.

    • Bob Tavis

      If it worked why would Steorn have stopped shipping units and basically gone into oblivion?

  • The Steorn Facebook page has gone…
    https://www.facebook.com/thebatteryisdead/
    no more available…
    Seems they have problems to get their hardware to run…too bad…
    Frank did you now finally extract a Orbo cell from the goop ?

  • Matt

    Seems that Steorn will be liquidated. McCarthy now will use his talents in being a professional poker player, not so much different from what he did before, isn’t it?
    http://dispatchesfromthefuture.com/2016/11/steorn-liquidates/

    • Bob Tavis

      Except no one is subsidizing him now.

  • Bob Tavis

    Except no one is subsidizing him now.

  • Cordon

    So…a scam in the end?

  • Cordon

    So…a scam in the end?