Rossi/Leonardo vs. Industrial Heat et al. (Update #3: Rossi Makes Statement on ‘Partial’ ERV Reports)

Since I am sure we will be spending a lot of time discussing this court case, I decided it might make sense to dedicate a permanent thread to news connected with the suit, and put it in a prominent spot on the website. So this thread will serve as a place to post updates and comments on it. The most recent posts will appear at the top.

Link to the case docket is here:

For reference, here is the license agreement between Leonardo and Industrial Heat:
Here is the link to Rossi’s court complaint:

UPDATE #3(May 1 2016)
On the Journal of Nuclear Physics, Andrea Rossi made a comment which provides more details than previously in connection with his complaint. Rossi was asked about guided tours that had been given to visitors at the plant. He responded:

Andrea Rossi
May 1, 2016 at 7:52 AM
We have the movies of them, because the plant had cameras for security issues, and photos, but all this information cannot be published before it is disclosed in Court.
I can make this statement, though: all I said in this blog about the 1 year test of the 1 MW E-Cat will be sustained by undisputable evidence in Court.
I say this now: all the main investors that gave real money to IH before IH bought other IP around have repeatedly visited our plant. I can also add this, because it is already public: the ERV made a partial report every 3 months and the results were the same as in the final report. This means that IH received a report in April, a second report in July, a third report in October, before the final report. The results of all these reports were the same, moreless. IH not only never criticized the reports, but shown the reports to Woodford and in an official conference in China, using them to collect investments. The comments of Darden about the reports can be read in his interviews after the Chinese conference.
So, for one year of test IH accepted with great enthusiasm the reports, used them to get enormous investments from funds and never made a single communication to the ERV, who sent to them all the preliminar reports, not a single word in negative.

The situation changed as soon as payment time came.
Warm Regards,

UPDATE #2 Some more items have been added to the court docket. Now Industrial Heat et al have until June 12th to file responses to the complaint.

UPDATE #1 (April 18, 2016) Here’s the first contribution to the thread.

This link shows that Industrial Heat is useing the Jones Day law firm:

Jones Day is a worldwide firm and according to Wikipedia, one of the top 10 largest law firms in the world, and the largest law firm in the United States.

  • Mats002

    This comment will be burried.

  • So IH are definitely intending to defend the case – no expense spared it would seem.

    IMO IH only have two options – (1) challenge Penon’s findings and provide evidence that the year-long test was fatally flawed, and/or that the data they (IH) collected showed no excess heat was produced, or (2) concede that Rossi has a working system but assert that he has not provided the information necessary to replicate this, hence no payment due.

    To meet these defenses Rossi needs to provide additional (and compelling) evidence that his gadgets work (1), and/or show documentation proving that all required IP was handed over (2). Both of these would be open to further challenge.

    For various reasons, including the unconvincing circumstances of the pilot plant test, I am less confident that Rossi will win this case than I was initially. Suing IH may not have been his best option.

    • Frank Acland

      I would expect that there will be plenty of expert witnesses who could be found who would say that the plant could not possibly have worked at COP 50.

      • It would be easy to find quite a few that would testify that any COP exceeding 1 is impossible as this would violate ‘the known laws of physics’. A quick visit by IH’s lawyers to MIT would see academics falling over themselves to provide ‘expert’ testimony to that effect.

        • Frank Acland

          But then the question would be, if that’s the case, what is IH doing signing up LENR researchers?

          • I suppose that would depend on when the others were ‘signed up’. IH could easily argue either that this took place before they became convinced that Rossi was scamming them (case (1) above), or that they hired them to attempt to recover their investment of $1.5M when it became clear to them that AR wasn’t going to give them the full info required to replicate e-cat LT (case (2) above).

          • wpj

            Well, there were supposedly many visitors to the plant who heard from the actor/customer (depending on you point of view) all of whom could be called as well as the customer themselves who would have to confirm the 10-20 COP figure that has been spoken about.

            I believe that IH’s only course in this will be that AR never supplied sufficient details. With the MIT scandal, I don’t believe that the opinion of any “expert” who hasn’t worked with AR could be trusted to be unbiased

          • Winebuff67

            It’s a sticky wicket here. They don’t want to say it never worked because they were wooing in estors at that time which would constitute fraud. If they throw Rossi to the wolves and say he was fraudulent but in the mean time producing patents with his name and buying parts of the competition that would seem contradictory to me.

      • Winebuff67

        I.E. Jed Rothwell?

    • Kevmo

      Regarding (2), it is possible that MFMP and Parkhoff could be called as experts who DID replicate Rossi’s results on far less documentation than provided to IH.

  • Alan Smith

    IH have picked good lawyers. Jones Day often work with APCO, and have worked for Trump, Bush, Chevron, Romney and many other members of the downtrodden classes.

    • Probably not going to work ‘pro bono’ then!

    • Brokeeper

      Perhaps Joes Day will represent Trump in Cleveland at RNC convention.

    • LOL anyone who thinks IH hired the largest Law Firm in the U.S. because that Ecat doesn’t work is stupid! It works, they are trying to shelter their other “investments” so they can ditch Rossi and do their own thing, it has nothing to do with the 89 million, its a small price to pay when you are talking about hundreds of Billions.

    • Ged

      Cripes, didn’t expect that. These are some serious big guns; IH is basically going to nuclear war. If this case was truly without merit, they wouldn’t need anything remotely this expensive and world class.

      Rossi’s lawyer is likely to get rolled right over.

      • Andreas Moraitis

        Paradoxically, if Rossi’s technology works and he has not yet transferred the critical IP it might even be better for him to lose, provided that he will not have to disclose further information in return for the $11.5M that he has received from IH.

        • Unless he gets IH’s costs and damages awarded against him.

        • Bob

          Mr. Ray,
          I am not associated in anyway with I/H, Darden, MFMP (other than I have donated a small amount to them for their very good work) nor any other energy, oil or related industry. I live in the Midwest (USA), work for a small privately owned manufacturing firm (I work there, I do not own it) and am an engineer by trade. I have no stakes in this drama other than I would really like to see LENR / CF become available. Right now, I see MFMP as being the best bet for that happening.
          I would now ask you… what are your connections? Why do you so strongly defend Rossi against someone like Mr. Darden. Have YOU actually done any research on Tom Darden, or do you simply take the vitrol that is espoused here against Mr. Darden as fact? On what factual basis do you logically deduce that “Rossi says” is so much more reliable?. What is you well reasoned logic.
          I am not against Mr. Rossi. I would like to see him succeed. However, I am not going to place him on a pedestal and make him my idol. To me, actions mean a thousand times more than words. So I look at the history,
          Mr. Darden has had many successful ventures with other people. They got along well, there was no lawsuits. It was professional business and he has made himself a good reputation. Rossi has not done this. He posts many marvelous things, but we never really get to see them. I have read about his robotized factory since 2011, but it has never made a unit for sale. 2012 was a secret customer and test that would be revealed, but never was. 13 units sold but who has them. The ERV turned out to be a single, lone consultant. The latest customer turnout out to have his lawyer as president. The list goes on..
          Do not get me wrong… Rossi may very well have something and I hope he does. But he continuously posts things that never quite come true. They do have basis and it is true that many posts are then blown out of proportion by those on this list, not Rossi! Right now, I see him kind of like a politician. Always spinning the tale to make things look great and right around the corner, yet things never get better. He never goes into production. I call politicians to light on that and I make no apologies calling Rossi on it either. No malice, just accountability.
          Oh, by the way, Bob is my real name and the Avatar by my posts do not look anything like me! I actually have facial features. 🙂

      • Guest

        I expected nothing less. What other choice did IH have given the partially veiled public accusations Rossi has been making on JONP? They clearly value their reputation…

        A reminder of some of his accusations:

        Andrea Rossi
        April 7, 2016 at 9:09 PM
        Hank Mills:
        […]Now, the cases are two: either they are lying when they say they didn’t replicate, or they made a fraud collecting 60 millions from Woodford, more from others, not to mention Cherokee fund[…]

      • Winebuff67

        Rossi has a pea shooter and IH has Enola gay….lol

    • sam

      Spending a pile on lawyers and all
      they might have to do is smarten
      up a bit.

  • Steve Swatman

    If the E-cat does not work, then Ih will not have to pay the 89mil, they are not paying the 89mil anyway, the IP is worthless, why pay the biggest lawyers in the US exorbitant fees to save money they are not going pay and keep IP that is useless? one has to wonder, what the fight is really about.

    If the ecat doesnt work, 11.5 down the drain a pittance in the reality of venture capitalism.

    They could have hired Saul Goodman and worked out a deal.

    • Brent Buckner

      You wrote:
      “They could have hired Saul Goodman and worked out a deal.”

      Perhaps not in the timeframe allowed to reply (21 days), and perhaps not without complete capitulation.

      You wrote:
      “”If the E-cat does not work, then Ih will not have to pay the 89mil, they
      are not paying the 89mil anyway, the IP is worthless, why pay the
      biggest lawyers in the US exorbitant fees to save money they are not
      going pay and keep IP that is useless?”

      If IH does not make an answer to the Complaint then the court might rule that IH owes the $89million plus much more. IH apparently has more assets than its interest in the E-Cat and so going bankrupt would be costly – let alone reputational issues.

      • Steve Swatman

        I cannot see how Ih can come out of this with any intact reputation, they made the ecat to entice investors, they demonstrated the ecat to entice investors, they took the investors funds, either their “due diligence” comes under intense scrutiny, or they are bigger swindlers than Dr Rossi could ever hope to be.

        If the court ruled that Ih had to pay Rossi they (IH) would just claim bankruptsy anyway it is fact little more than a small shell company, Cherokee would claim no involvement with IH as it was separate company, darden and vaughn might lose all respect and reputation, but its the US and money some people would say it was a good move to create a shell jic.

        • Brent Buckner

          We have been told that IH raised at least $50million and has an interest in at least one LENR company other than LC – going bankrupt may not have as low a cost as you posit.

        • sam

          I wonder if Darden has a full grasp of the situation.
          One of these days he might
          realize he might be losing the
          invention of the century .

          • Darden probably knows that he will not get the secret of the ‘Quark’ device, which may already have made the LT e-cat IP that IH owns, obsolete before it ever reaches the market.

          • LCD

            If the quark is real it’s probably years away. Plenty of time for ih to make billions from the inferior current ecat version.

      • Ultimately, IH is a disposable shell co. with limited resources, and declaring bankruptcy is always a low-loss option. As they are defending the case in this guise, Cherokee is isolated from IH’s losses. Cherokee seems to have some history of using this technique – see comments by ‘Trump it’ about Ashley I LLC and Ashley II LLC (Cherokee subsidiaries) at Mats L’s blog:

        • Brent Buckner

          As I noted to Steve Swatman, if IH has transferred out valuable IP rights to companies connected to
          IH principals without due consideration then Woodford would have a civil

  • malkom700

    Maybe at the beginning we should realize that this is not the game of individuals. Two dominant players are the IH and the LC, not Rossi or Darden. Rossi only be researched to us all.

  • Andreas Moraitis

    Does anybody know if the defendant’s reply will be published in the case docket?

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    Isn’t it interesting that Darden and Cherokee thought it necessary to form all these shell companies, I wonder why? Are they trying to hide something, cheat someone?

    • LCD

      Standard practice, nothing new. Let’s wait before condemning them.

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        “Standard practice”? Do you see Rossi doing the same?

      • Omega Z


        You are correct to a degree. These LLC’s are to keep 1 development from impacting another. Should business (A) go bankrupt leaves business (B) intact and untouched.

        However, multiple shell companies for the same development raises many questions. Why is 1 for the initial payment(11.5 M$) and another for an additional payment(89 M$). This is a RED Flag for me.

        • LCD

          That is curious but not without precedence. Look at Apple’s structure. If you are setting up IP you might do something like that.

  • Observer

    What was IH going to have the day after paying the 89 million that they did not have the day before? Distribution rights to a technology whose know how they thought they had already acquired and disseminated to other entities that would suddenly come up with their own “unique” miracle devices?

    IH thought they would be holding all the cards the day Rossi came asking for payment. Imagine their surprise when Rossi’s continuing R&D made what was in their hands obsolete.

    • That’s the key to it. Their lawyer may have been briefed to attempt to force Rossi to hand over that secret on the basis that it’s just an extension of what they agreed to pay $89M for. It would be a bargain at that price.

      • Observer

        The “Secret” is to never stop improving your product. This way, those that seek to steal your technology will always be chasing your shadow.

        • clovis ray

          excellent,, O’ man

  • Curbina

    I am the least surprised, if they went for APCO even before the lawsuit was presented, they were’nt going to hire anyone the lesser as lawyers. I hope Rossi had this in mind when the lawsuit was crafted. The issue with “good lawyers” is that they could not care less for the truth…

  • Winebuff67

    Rossi is in deep doo doo! Even if IH is wrong with good representation it might not matter. Rossi better have a good lawyer.

    • Unfortunately I have to agree, even ignoring the ‘David and Goliath’ mismatch between the legal representatives.

      In order to win, Rossi will have to prove both that Penon’s report is accurate and reliable, and that he has handed IH sufficient information to replicate the 4×250 reactor unit and get the same result.

      In order not to lose, IH only has to cast convincing doubt on either of the above.

      A good team of lawyers could also trash Rossi’s reputation in the process, possibly deeply damaging Leonardo and progress of the ‘e-cat X’ concept,

      • LCD

        I tend to agree but we don’t know what the defense is going to do because we don’t know what detail they are disputing yet.

        • Patrick Ellul

          The defence will 99.99% counter sue Rossi. Best way to defend is to attack.

  • passerby

    So you don’t think they stole his IP?

    • Winebuff67

      Of course! Then squish him.

    • Bob

      My opinion is that they did not. I have only two things to base this opinion on. 1) Rossi’s words in his legal filing 2) Tom Darden’s long history.
      Darden’s history outweighs Rossi’s words for me at this time.
      Tom Darden has a spotless history for any that will take time to actually do a little research. (Please research the “horrible” SEC event that many post as proof that Darden is Mr. Evil. You will find it nothing of the sort). So stealing would be completely out of his historical character. But people can and do change, so again, it is only my opinion. I prefer innocent until proven guilty however, especially when one has a long, positive history.
      I could be wrong or I could be correct. Guessing will not prove either. At some point, the lawsuit may go public and we will know. Or it is likely to be settled out of court and as with everything Rossi, it will be under NDA.
      Darden / IH do not splash blurbs everyday on a blog about business or legal proceedings. They did not do this two years ago when they were the cat’s meow in Rossi and everyone else’s eyes. They are not going to do so now either. Their apparent silence is not a sign of guilt, it is a sign of a professional organization, running a business professionally. No “snakes or clownery” statements from them! 🙂

      • Brent Buckner

        Also, the plain text of the License Agreement does not impose an obligation upon IH to maintain confidentiality of Rossi/LC’s trade secrets (although per Section 16.4 it does impose an obligation on Rossi/LC). In the Complaint (paragraph 101), Rossi does not claim that IH disclosing trade secrets violated the letter of the License Agreement, rather he claims that in signing an exclusive License Agreement IH assumed fiduciary duties.

      • passerby

        So it is just a coincidence that after they license his tech they patented what is clearly the same thing? How does one just explain that away? How does prior reputation have any bearing on what is obviously an underhanded move regardless of whether it was within the bounds of the license agreement?

  • Patrick Ellul

    Does anyone have a lino to that latest filed document?

    • What I don’t get is IH paid half for the ERV. Rossi can make all the claims he wants because a system was set up to verify results. Seems the real question is the reliability of Fabio Penon. Seems his reputation is more at stake.

      • Andrew

        “Because a system was set up to verify results”

        Link/source please!

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        This brings up a point I have not heard anything about. Was Penon paid, monthly, quarterly? And who paid him?

        • Ged

          Barry’s post answered your last question… As does the contract agreement between IH and Rossi which was published in the court documents. Who paid him is not a mystery, thankfully.

  • Aryth

    If IH wants out of the contract with Rossi, what would be the cheapest way to do it?
    (Assume technology real, plant performed)

    • Guest

      If you assume technology real and plant performed there’s no way IH would want out of the contract…

      • Ged

        We have no idea of that, one way or the other.

        There are so many shady things that have happened with countless working inventions in the past. And Cherokee has been slapped by the SEC recently due to shady activity. There are so many possibilities–maybe the IH branch didn’t have the money after all (a lot of hedge funds have been losing money hand over fist in the current market), maybe IH wanted to go their own way with the tech without Rossi and support a competitor instead, etc etc.

        • Guest

          In my mind that’s kind of like saying we have no idea whether santa exists one way or the other (admittedly an exaggeration). Sure, technically true, but from a probability standpoint one answer almost certainly true.

          If the technology is real, the plant performed at a 50+ COP, and IH could replicate those results on their own without Rossi, the value to them dwarfs the $89M payment. People here will argue, “yeah, but maybe they think they already have the technology and they can get away with it for free.” The logical counterpoint to that is that if this thing does what’s claimed, $89M is effectively nothing, and the opportunity cost in terms of diverting time and attention away from commercialization to a lawsuit is HUGE.

          Skipping out on the $89M payment under those conditions would be irrational, and no sensible business person would do so – literally not worth the time.

          For this same reason it’s also ludicrous to assert that they couldn’t have come up with the money – if the technology worked @ a 50+ COP that IH could replicate on their own they would have more money than you can possibly imagine thrown at them. Ending the relationship with Rossi to go their own way with a competitor would also be illogical, as they could proceed with both (the license contract doesn’t prevent it). Their whole investment philosophy is to invest in multiple LENR technologies, it would be dumb to jettison a working one (attainable at a very reasonable price), when they could continue with all investments. In fact, despite this lawsuit I can almost guarantee IH will not argue for the license to be voided, they will argue that it should be viewed as an open contract where pre-conditions for the $89M payment have not yet been met.

          I get it, most of the people here are not business people or investors, as evidenced by the SEC thing getting thrown out there (calling that evidence of shady activity is beyond ridiculous, it appears to be a minor wrist slap that any company of that size will face at one point). As a result, the story line becomes ‘big evil company tries to screw saintly investor’. Not only does this not jive with the IH guys’ previous reputations, but it also makes no sense financially.

          • Ged

            The ultimate point is Santa is a matter of evidence, but this discussion is a matter of assuming motives in someone else. That will get a person burned more often than not. We can not assume IH’s motives so staunchly until they present their defense. We aren’t them, and while your points are great as a window into your thinking and what you see is rational, it doesn’t tell us anything about the minds behind IH and the other actions going on.

            Until we see evidence and can discuss this like Santa, one can’t be so fervent in their claims of IH’s motives one way or the other. I am sure plenty of people believed the President of Brazil to be a good rational actor too.

          • clovis ray

            Hi Ged,
            I like brazilan new attitude about politics, the people of the country passed a bill that would prevent any bad government offical,from ever holding any office ever again, in their country, if caught and convicted of any crime against the state.

          • LCD

            It could be so many things including a scenario where both parties have legitimate grievances and we don’t have all the details.

            I think that IH was not trying to do anything shady but I do believe they had trouble believing Rossi as time went on and this became the basis for all the issues.

            I don’t think they truly know if the technology actually works and I do think that Rossi probably did have too much down time on the plant and violated the contract.

            So to that end I think IH would pay the 89 million (which I don’t think they have but probably could get easily) if they believed Rossi and the tech but they don’t do they have a legitimate out.

          • Omega Z

            It actually is possible that they couldn’t come up with $89M.

            Two of Cherokee’s projects currently going into bankruptcy for lack of cash flow at the tune of 10’s of millions. Not a good time for Cherokee to shift investments to IH.

            Industrial heat has “NO Money” aside from what it can bring in from investors such as Woodford. It’s not easy to entice these investors into a technology that supposedly doesn’t exist.

            In addition, People tend to think that those who deal with large sums of money have large sums of money at their disposal. A middle income american struggles to stay a float living paycheck to paycheck trying to make ends meet.

            You’ll never convince someone from a 3rd world country that a middle income american has money issues. You’ll never convince a middle income american that millionaires, billionaires and corporations have money issues. But the truth is, most are 1 bad quarter away from broke…

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        They simply might not have 89 million. They never thought they needed the 89 million, they planned to take Rossi IP and run. They were out foxed. Now their scientists and Rossi ex employees are feverishly trying to duplicate the year long test IP. They are probably just as far along as MFMP.

  • Alan DeAngelis

    Perhaps there could be a “super duper juror” whose vote overrules the combined votes of all the other jurors.

    • Ged

      Thank goodness no such thing exists. That would destroy and subvert the entire justice system–make it a true sham.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    What has this split between Rossi and IH has done to the progress of the Rossi lab, LENR research work, and to Rossi himself? At one point it was clear Rossi had accepted the job of Chief Scientist with IH. This means he must have fully or partially abandoned his own research facility with his employees becoming IH employees, or were let go. Was this a strategy by IH to steal Rossi employees and what they knew about Rossi IP? At the same time IH started investing in his competitors, sharing what they knew about Rossi IP, patenting Rossi IP, and announced the opening of their own 20,000 sq ft lab. For Rossi this must have been devastating, he was working 16 hours a day on the yearlong test, while his employees started working for IH and realized he would never see the 89 million. For Rossi to restart his research while dealing with these factors, is a real testament to Rossi and his tenacity for protecting his IP, it is no wonder he started losing weight and his health. I cannot help but think Rossi would be much further along with his research without IH, Darden interfering (trying to steal his IP).

    • Omega Z


      I believe Rossi was Chief Scientist only for the purpose of the test to see it through. Beyond that, the agreement would have been completed and Rossi would no longer be their Chief Scientist.

  • sam

    Darden has a board of directors.
    Rossi has his wife
    Chalk one up for A.R.

  • sam

    Rossi has lots of experience in the ring.

  • Philippe Goulet

    It makes no sense to me that a mom and pops normal people could sudently become physicist, chemist or nuclear scientist and tell if the technology is proven in court of law.

    • That will cut both ways. It means that any ‘expert testimony’ explaining why CF can’t work according to established science won’t be understood by the jurors. In any case it’s all going to be about ‘sound bites’, reputations and cherry-picked history, rather than objective scientific facts. Rossi presumably hopes that he can convince the jurors that he is the badly-used underdog, while IH is a predatory corporate wolf.

      • LCD

        Might make for a de-facto “is lenr real” trial.

      • Omega Z

        ->”Rossi presumably hopes that he can convince the jurors that he is the badly-used underdog, while IH is a predatory corporate wolf.”

        Given the present mood of the people, the odds are in Rossi’s favor.
        People have short memories in general, but 08′ is still fresh in their memory.

  • Brent Buckner

    If IH has transferred out valuable IP rights to companies connected to IH principals without due consideration then Woodford would have a civil case.

  • guitarwebs

    As i have commented before….oil barons with over 67 Trillion dollars of inventory in active fields, at current market pricing. Who would not take say a mere 1 billion dollar cash, untaxed etc. …bribe,payoff, whatever you want to call it? That is a miniscule fraction of the value of their inventory. IH retains probably the most expensive lawfirm?…money( in this case extreme amounts of it ) Talks…. And of course everything else walks.

    Just saying

  • LCD

    We don’t know any of this to be true. We just know what it looks like.

  • Omega Z


    Scenario #2 actually has some plausibility.
    Industrial heat did not say the E-cat plant did not work. They said it hasn’t been substantiated. With all the problems and water leaks, can the data be trusted. You could have a COP well above 1, but you can’t state exactly what it is with absolute certainty.

  • Argon

    Well I don’t quite get people repeating that (final) e-cat would “require constant attention” to work properly. In my opinion this simply does not make sense now days. As I have said elsewhere, already since invention of feedback and PID controllers, human has not been able to do better work controlling of process. Yes I know all these legends of paper mill oldschoolies etc. but:those were related to so many interconnected factors that only experienced personell had intuition. That compared to single E-cat reactor where possible inputs are temp, pressure, ‘sound’, waterflow and what else?.

    – For real what’ input data’ Rossi would get that modern sensors couldn’t give? Rossis stethoscope?
    Stetoscope was maybe just his way to hear what is going on inside reactor or even partly his joke. Nevertheless microphone data processed FFT-analysis would give much better and faster insight than human would ever be able to do with magic stethoscope.

    – “Decision making” (or controlling the process) based on input data? As said most of the processes can be tamed simply by clever adjustment of rather ‘dumb’ PID-algorithm. If control operation would require some higher intelligence, that can be written as set of rules, which is easy to program as todays controller algorithm.

    • Steve Swatman

      I have to agree with your summation on the controllers, that would have been the only way to have given Dr Rossi time to spend on his “quark” while most of the work on running the e-cats was been done automatically, I might suggest that all happened around the time of the swap to 250kw generators.

      Rossi mentioned a few problems that he had to deal with, but they never sounded to taking up 18hrs a day.

      I also agree that the pic with the stethoscope was probably purely promotional and a bit of fun.

      • I’ve heard that Rossi is actually able to hear in what boiling phase the reactor is from the sound of it. And doing so being able to make adjustments and improve performance. A sound capture algo could probably be trained to do something similar, but it doesn’t exist yet.

        • Argon

          Well summarized. This current state of 1MW plant is used as explanation IH not to pay remaining sum. If potential is such huge, IH must understand that this problem can be solved. So I guess they would not let go on (licensing)contract if they have any understanding of productizing of new inventions.

        • Argon

          Since my previous replies were sucked into automatic moderation, I put short version only here:
          Sifferkoll, well summarized. This is what I meant. Yes at the moment Rossi may need to listen boiling density or whatever measure, to make proper fine tuning BUT repeated claims that “IH lost interest on continuing with Rossi, because his reactor requires babysitting and thus is not scalable” can be pretty much reasoned out (was it Jed Rothwell who said that Rossis system is not scalable. I cannot remember.) For commercial version this sound analysis and process control using FFT and programmed rule sets or similar can easily be automated.

    • Omega Z

      You can program a computer to deal with most adjustments, “most” being the key word, but aside from that, you need to know what adjustments are necessary before you can write the algorithms to deal with it. The thing with computers is that they do not have intuition. They are simple input/output devices.

      • Argon

        My previous long reply got sucked to automatic moderation, so quick summary instead:
        – In my understanding real Intuition is needed when there are so many interrelated factors in the process that their relations cannot be understood or predict with theories or formulas.
        – Even if process is unknown it usually can be tamed with PID controllers, unless there are too many interconnected factors to control.
        – In my opinion e-cat has only few mesurement points (factors) temp, pressure, water flows and (process) water temperatures etc. And only few factors to control heating power, maybe pump speed and Rossis “secret trigger”. So in my opinion this can be programmed into rule sets to software and settings of controller after Rossi reveal how Cat works. I might be wrong also.

    • Kevmo

      Interesting take. IH have brought in the big guns so they can control this technology. I’ve been saying for years that LENR would get bogged down in patent wars. Like what happened to the Wright brothers, no one wants the little guy to get paid so much nor control such a powerful technology.

    • pg

      Tight LEASH

      • sorry. fixed. the leaches will come later I guess …

        • pg

          No worries. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

  • Kevmo

    “The second issue, the 1MW plant test, the only reasonable path for IH here is to suggest that while it worked intermittently throughout the test it was unreliable and required constant attention by AR and some of their own staff, costing both additional time and money, which may have made the project unprofitable.”
    ***If they even admit that it worked intermittently and erratically, it is an admission that Rossi has something worth bringing in the big guns to keep control of. I can just imagine a demonstration in front of the judge with Rossi showing it working and IH scientists & lawyers arguing minutiae about how stuff is measured.

  • artefact

    A post on JONP:

    “H April 18, 2016 at 5:22 PM
    Dr Andrea Rossi:
    I appreciated the fresh air from Francesco Celani. About fresh air: we,
    your followers, are preparing a nice surprise for the “pure scientists”
    that are attacking you and that tried to stop your work the dirt way, in
    close contact with the snakes.
    You do not know us, but we are strongly taking your back against this
    dark work. You will get fun, stay tuned, because we discovered very well
    who they are, how they make money, why they want your death.
    You are working hard for all of us, and at the same time you are making a
    duel, David against Goliath; Goliath has put hidden men to shoot at
    your back during the duel, but there we are too, and we discovered
    anything of them. Next week there will be fun in the blogosphere.
    You think how to work for us, we think how to defend you.
    Godspeed, Andrea! Never give up !

    • pg

      H is preparing a surprise? Hopefully not Preparation H..!
      Sorry couldn’t resist.

    • gerald

      I’m not an native reader of the english word, but is the guy writting this the same as the guy writing the warning on lenr? He uses so much “,” . Weird kind of writing.

    • wpj

      He seems to have information on another shell company of Darden’s mate. There is a copy of it on Peter Gluck’s blog (egoout) if you can’t find it on Rossi’s.

  • No. I do not believe in conspiracy. I believe in some planning and in damage control. As I wrote, it is basically business as usual that drives the decisions. But I also believe many more eyes are watching than we might think. Does that make it a conspiracy theory? If that is the way you percieved it, I might have to rephrase.

    Not paying $89M fits in the “not give Rossi credibility” theory, which is more or less proven allready. And if IH knew the test was a failure, then where is the issue? This is an inconsistency I believe.

    • Mark S.

      “Not give Rossi credibility” is something Rossi did to himself! Your in love and need to take your rose color glasses off. Often betrayal comes after love, it is the stuff of life and fiction.

      • I was refering to the IH/Apco press release where they clearly communicated on the credibility issue. Maybe you didn’t read it, becaase of your emotional hang-up. What do I know …

      • Eyedoc

        But Mark, this isn’t fiction

  • I think you’ve confused this Bob with BG for longer than today then. I’ve never seen BG do this: “defendes I/H, and is constantly putting the good doctor down”

  • Bob

    An interesting post from Aug. 2015 by Mr. Rossi. :
    Andrea Rossi : “The relationship between Industrial Heat and Leonardo Corporation is perfect as always….”
    This is only 8 months ago, but well after the patent dates and so forth claimed in his lawsuit. It appears per Rossi’s words, that any major split between the two must have came after August 2015. Since nothing was reported before and the lawsuit was not filed until after the ERV report was made available to Rossi and IH, it appears that the ERV report was indeed most likely the trigger, not patent or IP infringement . If IH did not have IP ownership and filed patents in 2014 and 2015, you would think Rossi would have filed a breech then. Even after Feb. this year when the test was over, we heard nothing about a rift between IH and Rossi from either party. Of course IH does not blog and Rossi did not state anything. It was only after the ERV report went to IH and Rossi, that Rossi filed suit, including all the patent and IP subject claims.
    So the question is… If Rossi got his 89 million after the ERV report, would he not have filed suit? If not, then that would indicate that IH does have IP ownership as it was clearly stated in their 2014 press release. Would he have filed the lawsuit even if they paid him the 89 million due the positive ERV report but based upon IP / Patent infringement?
    My point being is that there are two distinct issues with this saga. One is that the 89 million was to be paid after the 1 year test proved successful based upon the ERV report. It had nothing to do with IP or patents. IH is not paying because they stated the test could not be substantiated.
    Rossi only filed after not getting paid the 89 million, but then included second and tertiary claims of IP and patent infringement dating back almost two years, as unrelated to the ERV but punitive actions against IH.
    He will have a difficult time in winning the patent and IP claims since they have been well documented for sometime in public and he did not act on them and they are unrelated to the ERV report, the 1 year long test and payout connected to them. I would expect the court to handle them separately from the 1mw plant test. I am not a lawyer and do not claim any legal representation here. I am only pointing out the timing of information released to the public and the timing of the lawsuit.
    It will be interesting to see how the court sorts this out and will any of it become public?
    Probably not..

    • Omega Z

      The agreement/contract gives Industrial heat certain rights.
      By Not paying the 89 M$, the agreement/contract has not been concluded, thus certain rights can not be utilized by Industrial heat. Had it been concluded, I doubt the law suit would have ensued.

    • DrD

      He could hardly say otherwise at that stage. In fact didn’t he recently apologized for not being able to always be truthful (prior to the issue of the suit).

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      The contract between IH and Leonardo is a “License Agreement” it is not a “Sales Agreement”, if it was the intent of the parties to sell and buy patents and IP it would have been called a “Sales Agreement”.

    • HS61AF91

      After thinking about it, the idea came to me that US Patent Office granting on 25 Aug 2015 Rossi a patent panicked IH. Like Secretive plans of IP takeover, “The best laid schemes o’ mice an’ men / Gang aft a-gley.” and IH tried to play catch-up against a seasoned and competent patent holder.

      • Obvious

        The IH WIPO application with Dameron as co-inventor on it appeared August 27, 2015

    • LCD

      So there seems to be a lot of missing info. According to the article on infinite energy, Darden invested his own money into Rossi. So I don’t know if investors have ever lost money or given money they can’t get back. And it is unclear what IH vs Darden has done or not done.

      So confusing

  • Ged

    I’m pretty sure it has to be a specific, actionable threat (specific class of illegal act aimed to a named entity). In fact, he doesn’t even make any illegal threats (a surprise is not an illegal threat), not even a vague one. No specific actions nor targets; there’s no legal issues here.

    • psi2u2

      “why they want your death.”

      This is most certainly a legal matter.

      • Andreas Moraitis

        But „they“ does not refer to the author(s) of the comment.

        • psi2u2

          Yes, I understand. But the author of the comment claims knowledge of something like this. Such accusations should not be bandied. If the speakers have evidence, I hope they are in touch with the appropriate legal authorities.

      • Ged

        Saying they found out why others want Rossi’s death? That is not a threat, but supposition. If they can prove plotting against Rossi, that would be another matter.

        • psi2u2

          Correct. But it is stated as a known fact. It is an unfortunate communication in that regard.

  • Omega Z

    Note: If the E-cat works, Then Rossi holds all the cards.

    Even should he loose the court case, you can not force people to hand over knowledge.
    Especially when you 65+ years old. Lot of details man. I can’t remember everything. 🙂

    Seriously, You can’t extract information within the mind, especially when you have no idea what that info consists of.

  • LCD

    then i would say it’s not real, with real being it is ready for commercialization with a cop of >>6. Although the Rossi Effect may be real.

  • passerby

    That seems like an awful lot of mental gymnastics to morally justify a company patenting something they did not invent. IH could theoretically use said patent to prevent the inventor from selling his own invention without paying them first. That is not right no matter how you spin it.

    Maybe you could chalk it up to a broken IP system enabling such behavior but I think it says a lot about the company’s supposed credibility that they would do that. Even if that is business as usual that does not make it any less dishonest.

    • bob

      I am an engineer by trade. I have have worked for 4 companies in my 30+ years. Everyone of them had an employment contract stating that they owned all rights to any invention I may create, even on my own time. It is not an unusual situation. It may be immoral in people’s opinion, but it can be legal. The law has little to do with morals.

      • passerby

        That contract does not apply to something you invented before your employment began, so it is not at all the same thing. They patented the e-cat after licensing it from them, years after he invented it.

        Pretty sketchy how you avoided mentioning that. Do you really want to be the kind of person that cares more about promoting a viewpoint than being honest?

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    I do believe Rossi held back some portion of his IP and did outsmarted IH. Going forward IH has hired the best and largest public relations firm and the largest and best law firm, they are going to be ready for battle the next time around and will use anything and do anything to control LENR. Rossi must get his E-Cat into the market place, yesterday.

    • Mike Henderson

      >Rossi held back some portion of his IP

      If he did, then he acted in bad faith and is going to have a rough time with the judge.

      Another possibility. I have been wondering if the trigger or control mechanism cannot be protected by anything more binding than secrecy. Or worse, it may be covered by someone else’s patent. What good is it to license intellectual property if it cannot be defended or if it requires licensing someone else’s IP?

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        Trial by jury

      • Engineer48

        I do believe Rossi complied with the terms of the agreement and supplied full IP to IH.

        Proof is the 2 x 1MW plants that were manufactured by IH, the fuel formulated and loaded by IH and the control systems necessary to support and control SSM were incorporated into the 1MW plant build.

        IE. SSM could not have happened unless the fuel IH loaded and the control systems designed into the 1MW plant could support it.

        This is VERY IMPORTANT to understand.

        It is like saying Rossi withheld the IP for a mobile phone to attach to the internet and then Rossi waved a magic wand over the phone that did not have internet support physically built in and magically it had internet support.

        There are hardware control systems necessary to make SSM mode work. Too little heat feedback and it stops, too much and it goes into thermal runaway. So not something that can be simply added to the fuel. SSM support needs to be designed into the plant, which shows IH had the knowledge (IP) to design in SSM and to control it.

        What I did read was nckhawk saying he considered the IH/Rossi contract was finalised by the payment of the $11.5m. Reading into that you could see that IH believed it had nothing to gain and $89m to lose by paying Rossi the final payment.

    • Observer

      Odds are, what IP Rossi did not share with IH was still in development. (E-Cat Quark X)
      The failure to pay as contracted, suspended all future IP transfer.

      • Engineer48

        I’m not a lawyer. My reading of the contract suggests IH may have created a Default as soon as they invested in another LENR entity or shared Leonardo IP with another LENR entity.

        • LCD

          Was it IH that invested or Cherokee?

          Also does anybody know if the contract had a future IP rights clause for a certain time frame.

      • Jerry Soloman

        Darden and his attornies will do everything to make sure the case is heard in North Carolina where the good ole boy network is alive and well,

        They will force Rossi attoneires to attend court dates in North Carolina this will go on for years and years.

        The IH strategy will be to drag this out then make a settlement yet continue to develop Rossi’s IP.

        • LCD

          It is not the MO of Darden and Vaugn to screw inventors/entreprenuers. You have to wonder what is really going on.

      • Andreas Moraitis

        That would reconcile with AR’s repetitive statements according to which the QuarkX is still under R&D.

  • Appleby

    I’m not sure where to post this but I have had my Twitter account hacked (after 1 day of activating…..mssg to Rachel maddow about LENR ) and now this.

    Can someone try and contact any media or government and see if they get the same results?

    • Argon

      This seems to have gone unnoticed by readers of this site. I don’t know much about this, but could try to put up discussion here. My take:
      – I don’t know much about practices with persons mentioned, but could guess you can’t get contact on them directly. They are probably so busy that they have assistants or advisors who filter interesting ones from the message flood.
      – Other question is should these topics be raised to politicians at this moment. Some say that it would be path to wrong fuss and failure.
      – There are ways ensure ‘your mouth is not shut’, but I’d rather first like to see discussion here what is opinions of other readers. My opinion is: “I’d rather wait and see how court case and possible other activities evolves in coming months.”

      BTW. Can you give more info what do you mean your twitter was hacked. DId hackers change password to lock you out?, or did they send tweets on your behalf? and so on. (I found your only 2 tweets from 2012?)

      • Andrew

        For politicians it’s better to keep their mouths shut and have people think they’re fools, then open them and remove all doubt.

      • Appleby

        Could you please make your information public so I know who I’m talking to?

        • Argon

          Yes that quote is automatically generated by Disqus, I cannot affect on it. That message could be more polite also in my opinion 🙂

          Unfortunately I am using pseudonym, and not planning to write here with my own name. Actually it wouldn’t matter to any of you since nobody here would know me any way.

  • roseland67

    Not sure if politicians really want LENR to become public knowledge, if it does, you can be sure it will be spoonfed to the populous in little bits and pieces and parts so they can make $$$ on existing energy markets, shorts, longs etc.
    Make no mistake, IF, LENR is proven to be what we have been told it is, politicians already know about it.

    Conspiracy theorists unite

    • SG

      I think you might give too much credit to politicians. While surely a few will be aware, most are dialing for dollars the majority of their days.

    • Logical extrapolation of established corporate business practices isn’t ‘conspiracy theory’. Most politicians just do as they are told by their personal or party sponsors, and media editors do as they are told by the owners of their publications or other news channels, so its the bankers and the energy cartels who will ultimately call the tune.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    It is my opinion, from Rossi statements, the fact that IH started investing in other LENR companies was the last straw, Rossi realized they were going to use these investments as cover for creating their own IP and a full assault on Rossi worldwide IP and business.

    • Pweet

      I don’t see why the investment by IH in other LENR companies should now be reported as a surprise to anyone, including Rossi. Tom Darden clearly stated in one of his very few earlier interviews that IH had invested in a number of LENR projects and Rossi’s ecat was just one of them.
      It was in this same interview that he said he didn’t find Rossi to be a very credible person. Although in the same interview he also said he would continue to support his work and that IH was in it for the long haul.
      But it was plain from what he said he was not limiting his investments in LENR to the ecat only. That fact didn’t seem to bother anyone then. It seemed to be a wise strategy; something to do with eggs and baskets I think, but in this case, had IH looked at the eggs more closely I think they would have noticed they had a distinct bluish tinge and a smell of sulfur dioxide emanating from them.

      I’m wondering if when he said he didn’t find Rossi to be a credible person if he hadn’t already found there was a serious discrepancy between what Rossi claimed and what IH was able to substantiate, to use the exact word IH used.
      It’s still more than a bit suspect that they went on after that to offload their liability onto some other gullible fools. Not only that but to make a big profit on it, if what Rossi says is true. (gee, that’s a big ‘if’ though isn’t it?)
      I suppose they saw it as just good business. I see it as crooked and immoral, so it’s hard to have sympathy for either side in this current dispute.

      • Pweet

        oops, I mean a smell of hydrogen sulphide, not sulphur dioxide. Big difference in aroma.
        Sorry people. Just a slip of the nose hairs.
        I don’t know why these errors are invisible until after I post them, and I can’t edit it out.

      • Engineer48

        I’m not a lawyer but my read of the contract between IH and Leonardo has a Non Compete clause that requires IH to not invest in, or engage with or share IP with any competitor of Leonardo.

        From Darden’s own comments it would seem the Non Compete conditions of the contract may have been ignored by IH, which would put them in Default and remove any rights they had to the shared IP and requires them to not engage in any LENR activity with any entity.

        When I read the contract and remember what Darden had said, well I was amazed as clearly Darden had decided to operate as if the contract was not binding on IH.

        • Brent Buckner

          The non-compete in Section 13.3 enjoins Rossi/LC to not compete with IH, not the other way around, as long as IH is not in breach of the License Agreement (at which time it enjoins IH to not compete with Rossi/LC).

          • Engineer48


            Clause 1 clearly states IH has no right deal with the licensed IP but can deal in any way with the manufactured product. While it can offer sublicenses, they can only be sublicenses of its rights to use the licensed IP.

            It seems IH has no rights to share or deal with the licensed IP. Would seem that to do so would be a breach of the Clause 1 conditions under which the licensed IP can be used.

            Very interesting Clause 1 mentions Military uses in Italy (is that where the 1st 1MW plant went?)

            Also as Clause 3.1 has not been met, payment of $100.5m, IH would seem to have no license to use the Leonardo/Rossi IP.

      • Stephen

        Hi Pweet, I don’t want to drag up old grounds from before I started to follow this story but for my information can you show me the link to the where Darden said Rossi was not credible? Just the link will do I don’t really want it to develop into an off topic conversation.

        By the way incase it helps I believe you can edit your comments if you sign in via Discus.

      • Curbina

        The only time ever that someone quoted Darden saying Rossi was not credible was when some creep denounced Rossi and IH of having a nuclear reactor and folks of some goverment agency went To a IH facility and talked with Darden / Vaughn ant they later wrote a report in which the quote appears, that was known through, but those words, AFAIK, were never said by Darden/Vaughn directly y in a published interview.

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        Hi Could you give me the source of this statement. Thanks. “It was in this same interview that he said he (Darden) didn’t find Rossi to be a very credible person” I do not remember Darden saying this in any of his interviews.

        • Omega Z

          I believe it was JT Vaughn who made that statement when the regulator was looking for Rossi workshop in Carolina.

          • Bernie Koppenhofer

            Thanks, now I remember, I took that comment as a way to get rid of inspector.

  • adriano

    There are two main point to consider. The first one is the scientific side of the story where both parties will present their own data with their own expert, but on this side I think Rossi have a disadvantage since I dont think you will ever find a court that will take the responsability to certificate that a device that defeat the known laws of physics exist. The second point is IH and Darden behavior. We dont know their version of events but if their conductions will seem to be at least difficult to understand for an avarage observer (like it is decribed by Rossi) then this will defenetly give to Rossi’s words more importance then words from Darden.

  • clovis ray

    Billh, you couldn’t be more wrong, on all points, wow buddy did you get up on the wrong side of your bed as well.
    1.what do you call customer #1, that demanded his plant be replaced, and ordered 3 more. you must have forgotten about that one,it’s still making customer#1 lots of money.
    2.there is no proof that the plant worked intermittently and the test was not unreliable, it was very reliable, and ran most of the time in ssm, with NO attention by anybody except the ERV, costing nothing,
    3. Bill leo corp, will have no more dealings with I/H , including the 89 mill. they I/H broke their agreement, and that ended that, i/p included, and btw an agreement is not a sales agreement unless stated, and not sure of that one.
    Giving the money back are you kidding., that would be admitting guilt. and their reputation is caput, I believe no reputable business will have anything to do with them.

    your whole comment was , just not believable, to me

  • SG

    It will come down to a contest of who breached first.

  • Andrew

    Right in the most recent quote from JONP

  • Added some thoughts on Weaver ranting on lenr-forum. Especially his arguments about ERV/Penon is really strange.

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      I warned Rossi he was up against the best propagandist machine in the world and we can expect the same from the legal side. There are at least 10 working “PR” propagandists working at various LENR sites. Do not under estimate their power just look what happened to Flecishman and Pons, they were driven out of their countries. Rossi should expend all his energy and money installing as many E-Cats in as many customer factories as fast as he can. But no, he is spending all his energy and money to have another “test” that will be discredited.

      • I’m not sure. Rossi strategy of working below the radar with selected people/customers might be better than we think, since the IH PR machine is fueled by ad-hominem, removing the hominem is not that bad. I believe working with customers/trusted people is what is going on right now.

  • LCD

    “Unsuccessful”, the word used by IH is not very descriptive.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    Who paid Penon, was he paid monthly, quarterly, and who paid him? You do not pay someone if you are not satisfied with his work.

    • Ged

      IH and Leonardo Corp both paid him in equal parts. Not sure how often, but usually in the US salary pay is once per month, so probably that is how it was.

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        I know the contract says both will pay him, but do we have proof IH actually paid Penon for a report? Why would they pay for a report they think is not accurate and possibly fraudulent? If they did pay their argument for not paying Rossi becomes weaker. But, of course their game is delay, delay and settle in a few years.

        • Ged

          I doubt he would have stayed around if he wasn’t receiving his paycheck (no one would). But we’ll see what IH turns up.

  • guitarwebs

    I personally believe that there are some decent 10 percenters, however, the1 percenters call the shots. Sadley, i believe we are greatly outnumbered by the ultimate capitalists. I do believe they ( the 10 percenters) do fear a global revolution of epic proportions in the not too distant future. So they toy with the idea of basic incomes. Payola for the masses so to speak.

    Just saying

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    You can’t be serious, comparing a real estate corporation not associated to LENR to setting up shell companies for various parts of a single agreement.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer
  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    Guest…..I was a financial controller for a construction company, so please do not try to educate me on the purposes and abuses of shell corporations, and the reason you give “LLC” is a joke.

  • Oystein Lande

    Do anyone understand why Jed Rothwell is so angry, using on the border of uprofessional words and phrases wrt Penon as the ERV?

    Only IH and Rossi has yet recieved and read the ERV report, so why is he so premature dismissive ?

    I mean, measuring and calculating heating of a water stream is one of the simpler calculation that any nuclear, HVAC or chemical process engineer should be competent of doing. I would be surprised If Penon missed any measurements.

    • There is a simple and evident answer.
      Jed , like for Defkalion, is devastated by the consequence of that on the image of LENR in the public and decision maker circles.

      Jed devoted much energy to make LENr real, to help research be funded so application emerge and many problem are solved.

      He also have observed the damages of the image of Fraud that sticks to cold fusion.

      He have seen data, have crossed claims, and feel devastated, AGAIN.

      maybe like me he is tired. more than me, because he have seen that more often than me, and because he don’t know what I know.

      I’m optimistic because I know IH is still credible for those who fund LENR, and that nobody needs Rossi.
      the domain needs investors, and Rossi just raised the interest on good LENR experimental results, good startups.

      I don’t know what exactly Rossi screwed up, and why…
      I’ve been told he just keep secrets, breaking the agreement with IH.
      Jed says the 1MW test is bunk…
      I wonder if any E-cat even worked, if any ever had a COP>6, and if any other than Rossi could make it that way…Finally I don’t care.

      as soon as few millions irrigate the domain, with serious engineers helping serious researchers, things will go fast, and the one who like Rossi keep his secrets, will just be ignored.

      I suspect it is happening, and guess what, IH is not the heart of it, and Rossi of course will be ignored.
      Even if his technology is good, his behavior show you cannot work with him.

      Better work with someone serious that will share something after hard work, than someone with technology that will never share sincerely.

      • Oystein Lande

        I fully agree.

        There exists creative inventors, smart investors and energetic, intelligent entrepenours able to build strong companies. But very seldom you find all of these in one single person, like Elon Musk.

        Rossi is possible a creative inventor, but has not yet proven to have adequat skills as entrepeneur. One important skill as entrepeneur is the ability to trust and cooperate with other people and partners. Rossis behaviour have indicated more of the typical inventor – “I trust no one”, and therefore can be very difficult to work with and have business arrangements with….

        But time will show where this ends then….

        • you raise the key point.

          I have echo from people who can do it.

          Rossi’s behavior as they understand from far make him without any value.

          entrepreneurship is taking risk, and one big risk is trusting.

          IH took the risk, now they limit the risk.

          they did not lose 11Mn, they did not save 89M$, they have lost 1Bn$ by not building E-cat as expected.
          you don’t lose 1Bn$ if you have choice.

          • DrD

            As you say, maybe they didn’t have a choice.
            Maybe they just didn’t have the $89M.

          • they have the money, and with a good report and evidence of replications they can even borrow the cash overnight at less than 10%/y

            My conviction is that they are forced not to pay, because if they do they will be sued for bad due diligence and irresponsible behavior.

            note that the result of the test have no more importance than giving impression.
            they key is , as written in Mats blog, to obtain a solid evidence over small power that E-cat works (100W with good calorimetry).

            if confirmed, and added to many cased were this rational test was proposed and rejected by rossi, I will have no other choice than to say that e-cat probably don’t work.

            anyway, what is important is if the know-how is transferred to IH.
            if IH cannot make an E-cat that works as Rossi claims, the agreement is void.

            today the best information I have is the IP is not transferred, and the test is positive.

            I’m surprised and very concerned by precise claims of some people that the reactor did not produce 1MW at all.

            that E-cat is void make that story absurd, but who knows. maybe we miss some points.

          • BillH

            One might think that a failure of the 1MW plant to operate at all would have been spotted in the very early days of the test. If a test can run for 1 year with no suspicion of trickery till the very late stages, or ever, you would have to conclude that IH’s staff were very lax in their monitoring of the situation. Who’s fooling who?

          • What if IH have spotted problems, as Dewey and Jed say ?
            Who said to you the test was OK ?

            As I say, as long as you estimate you have a contract with the Golden Egg Diva, you accept her strange demands and swallow your pride.

            When you suspect there is no egg at all… only suspect… you start to talk, in private, kindly not to worry your diva…

          • BillH

            Then they would have stopped the test, week 1 or month 1. They must have had encouraging signs that the test was working in the first few days, otherwise why continue. If IH were not monitoring this test very carefully, or saw nothing, then the fault clearly lies with them.

          • First, maybe the report were per quarter only (I’ve heard that… IH was not so happy but accepted).
            second is that when you see bad point, you first contact your diva and ask explanations…
            if he gives excuses you wait for improvement.
            when the improvement don’t come you bark louder in private… but stay quiet in public not to hurt the diva.
            you hear many excuses, justifications, promises, like we all hear on JoNP.

            My feeling is that me, like IH, have tolerated too much, too long.
            We all know LENr is real, and we all know that Rossi is strange diva and that if we make him unhappy he will go balistic and we may lose the opportunity of the century…
            Only whene we are absolutely sure to have been fooled do we start to bark and bite.
            Note that IH did not bark, they just refused to pay in private. It is rossi who barked.

            IH may still have some hope it may be real, and that they just were victim of paranoid tactics of the Diva.

        • DrD

          Rossi is accused of being slow and not an entrepeneur and yet he seems to be leading the pack.

          No one else is predicting mass production.
          Maybe he’s illusional but as you say, time will show; 12 months should be enough.

          • I remember in january 2011, I thought 3 months would be enough. At the time Rossi promised to have a product on the market within 3 months. Here we are 5 years later, and still no end in sight. Of course I hope Rossi has what he says he has, but we don’t know that. And I am afraid that we won’t be any closer to an answer in another 12 months. I guess we’ll see. At least we can enjoy the e-Cat drama(it should be a TV series).

      • Warthog

        Jed says he got his info from Rossi. Why does Jed think that said data is “right”, and actually reflects the real performance of the E-cat.

        According to Jed’s own multiple statements, Rossi is extremely devious in his business dealings, and proud of being so.

        Can you imagine a more effective way for Rossi to mislead his competition than to feed Jed data that indicates a seriously flawed ERV??? While himself continuing to make comments reflecting the real data??

        • Engineer48

          Hi Warthog,

          Jed said he got his data from IH by just asking for it. Further he said the data was Rossi data and Rossi would be very upset if Rossi knew how he had obtained it.

          Rossi did say he purchased and installed exactly the same system as the ERV installed and that the 2 system’s data matched to the accuracy of the instruments.

          So there are 2 data streams in existence. If IH has a copy of the data recorded by Rossi’s system, then maybe that is what IH gave Jed and as such still obeyed the NDA requiring both IH and Rossi to agree to ERV data disclosure.

          • Warthog

            There is some confusion here, as I am sure that I have elsewhere seen Jed say he got the data directly from Rossi, not IH.

            Note…not discounting your comment. There are just a lot of mutually contradictory comments floating around.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Warthog.

            He said it was Rossi data and that Rossi would be very upset if he knew how he had obtained it.

            Jed then said he received the data from IH, which means it is not ERV data as IH needs Rossi’s OK to release ERV data.

            Conclusion is IH gave Jed the data from Rossi’s monitoring system, which then fits what Jed has said.

          • Warthog

            “He said it was Rossi data and that Rossi would be very upset if he knew how he had obtained it.

            And that fact is exactly what makes me skeptical. I’ve followed LENR and thus necessarily, Jed, since he first appeared on the scene, and he has ALWAYS bent over backwards to avoid even the slightest whiff of improper behavior.

            Doing what you say he did would be the equivalent of receiving stolen goods, and I just can’t see him making that choice.

            Receiving it directly from Rossi under NDA would be perfectly legit, as it is Rossi’s technology.

            It just doesn’t “jibe” with the Jed Rothwell whose commentaries I have followed over the years.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Warthog,

            What I told you was what Jed told me on ECW. He even boasted Rossi would be very upset if Rossi khew how he had obtained Rossi’s data.

            All in the public record.

          • Warthog

            Incredible! Once upon a time, I greatly admired Mr. Rothwell for his evenhandedness. Apparently he has turned his back on that. Shame on him!

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    I guess I am just too old, I cannot get over how the world’s public is starting to accept corporate greed and stealing as the norm. Darden and IH have created NOTHING, they are simply trying to high jack, steal, Rossi IP.

  • IH have the money if the test is positive.
    They have half the money from Woodford, more from others, could just have paid 10Mn$ saying they are short, or borrow more to a bank or to an investor…

    now the test may even be positive, that is not the problem.
    IH clearlycannot replicate the claim in a way that give him hope to develop a reactor themselves.

    Note that sharing with Brillouin is not only not proven, but also not a violation of the agreement.
    IH just have to pay the license, which is cheap compared to the expected benefits (billions).
    Mixing IP, provided to respect royalties, is normal. note also that of course IH have acces, not property, to E-cat X, to Quark, if they exist… of course because V1.0 of a technology is without any value if V2.0 is developped, and the contract anticipated that.

    I see many option :
    – rossi have nothing usable, like Defkalion
    – rossi is so paranoid he faked the test, and kept tradesecrets (absurd)
    – rossi try to find a way to break the contract like with Defkalion, with Prometeon, … to get a better check elsewhere. (or to hide 1)

  • sam
  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    I was reading about shell companies and corruption in relation to another situation and then I remembered the shell companies used by IH and at the time wondering why would they do that?

  • Gerald

    Pacerdocket is just updated 2 hours ago with what seams a lot of new documents. First have to work, hope to read a next chapter with a smile? Tonight..

    • Gerard McEk

      Gerald, I am not following this so closely, but you seem to do that. Any idea when the trial will take place?