Mats Lewan Meets Rossi in Sweden, Rossi Bidding on Factory For QuarkX Production

Mats Lewan has posted a new article in his An Impossible Invention blog where he reports on meeting Andrea Rossi last week in Sweden where he was visiting to look at a building for use as a factory. The article is here: https://animpossibleinvention.com/2016/05/16/rossi-makes-offer-on-swedish-factory-building-plus-more-updates/

Mats has provided many interesting details in this article including the following items which he was told by Rossi.

  • The two IH representatives present at the test were Barry West and Fulvio Fabiani (who worked for Rossi from January 2012 until August 2013, when the MW plant was delivered to IH in North Carolina, after which he was paid by IH as an expert who would make the technology transition from Rossi to IH easier). West and Fabiani reported to JT Vaughn every day on the phone.
  • Three interim reports, about every three months, with basically the same results as in the final report, were provided by the ERV during the test.
  • During summer 2015, IH offered Rossi to back out from the test and cancel it, with a significant sum of money as compensation. Rossi’s counter offer was to give back the already paid 11.5M and cancel the license agreement, but IH didn’t accept.
  • The unidentified customer (‘JM Products’) using the thermal energy from the MW plant, had its equipment at the official address—7861, 46th Street, Doral, Fl. The total surface of the premises was 1,000 square meters, of which the MW plant used 400 and the customer 600.
  • The equipment of the customer measured 20 x 3 x 3 meters, and the process was running 24/7.
  • The thermal energy was transfered to the customer with heat exchangers and the heat that was not consumed was vented out as hot air through the roof.
  • The water heated by the MW plant was circulating in a closed loop, and since the return temperature was varying, due to different load in the process of the customer, Rossi insisted that the energy corresponding to heating the inflowing cooled water (at about 60˚C) to boiling temperature would not be taken into account for calculating the thermal power produced by the MW plant. The ERV accepted.
  • He also insisted that an arbitrary chosen 10 percent should be subtracted in the power calculation, with no other reason than to be conservative. The ERV accepted.
  • IH never had access to the customer’s area. At the end of the test, an expert hired by IH, insisted that it was important to know where the water came from and where it was used. The ERV explained that this had no importance.
  • The average flow of water was 36 cubic meters per day.
  • At the end of the test, the ERV dismounted all the instruments by himself, in the presence of Rossi and IH, packed them and brought everything to DHL for transportation to the instrument manufacturers who would recalibrate the instruments and certify that they were not manipulated.
  • After the test, IH wanted to remove the MW plant from the premises in Florida, but Rossi would not accept until the remaining $89M were paid according to the license agreement. Rossi’s and IH’s attorneys then agreed that both parties should lock the plant with their own padlocks (as opposed to the claim by Dewey Weaver that ‘IH decided to padlock the 1MW container after observing and documenting many disappointing actions and facts’).

It’s interesting to read that Industrial Heat apparently offered to pay Rossi to cancel the test, and that Rossi’s response was to return the $11.5 he had been paid to cancel the contract. It makes one wonder what IH’s reasoning would be for that. The article is well worth reading in full.

  • pg

    Nice!!!!

  • pg

    Nice!!!!

  • artefact

    From his post: “Now, all this makes me conclude that the E-Cat is most probably valid and that the 1MW test was indeed successful”

  • artefact

    From his post: “Now, all this makes me conclude that the E-Cat is most probably valid and that the 1MW test was indeed successful”

  • Stephen

    Good 🙂

  • Stephen

    Good 🙂

  • sam

    Anyone have an opinion on this part of
    the article.
    IH never had access to the customer’s area. At the end of the test, an expert hired by IH, insisted that it was important to know where the water came from and where it was used. The ERV explained that this had no importance.

    • My opinion is that if IH wanted full access to the customer’s operations then they should have gotten off their butts and found the customer themselves instead of waiting for Rossi to find one.

      • sam

        T.D should have spent more
        time at test site as a friendly
        observer trying to learn instead
        of relying on others.

    • Barbierir

      It’s true that technically it’s not important but it’s strange that they didn’t have access, didn’t IH know who the customer really was? Anyway this is going to be disclosed in court

      • sam

        But if IH were paying 89 million and
        they thought it was important why
        did A.R not comply to help seal the deal.I wonder those 18 hour
        days made him not think clearly
        sometimes.

        • I think he did. He told me that he started becoming suspicious when IH signed with Brillouin (understanding only at that point that the exclusivity regarded only him, not IH, having misinterpreted the agreement text!!), but hoped that it would be possible to come to an agreement.

          • DrD

            I think that explains a lot.
            I suspected as much: AR didnt realise he had so substantially signed away his IP.
            And what about future improvements – I think AR would have a hard time arguing the E-CatX and now the Quark aren’t included.

          • clovis ray

            this is all for nothing, they didn’t pay that broke the agreement, game over.

          • sam

            Have you tried getting in touch
            withEVR people that worked with
            Penon.Get there honest opinion
            on his workLike average,above
            average.good,excellent.

          • I have talked to Penon but he won’t comment, referring to NDA.

          • Ciaranjay

            That actually sounds plausible. That AR wanted an exclusive relationship while IH want to try to pull all the different and disparate researchers together to make progress.
            Still does not make sense however if he has the big miracle why they would not pay the money over. Either they don’t have the money which I find hard to believe they cannot find this amount, they do not believe/trust AR, or they think they can progress without him, or they think Rossi is contractually tied up.
            The other mystery is why they left it to Rossi to organize the test and IH even tried to cancel it part way through. Yet they sent representatives along.
            Can’t wait for the court case.

          • cashmemorz

            Your points make IH look like they were putting obstacles to AR at every point of importance, like an obstacle course. Did IH want to see what AR would do at said points to show his mettle? Rossi might work best when confronted by obstacles. The court case may be the biggest obstacle so far and Rossi seems to be taking advantage of the situation to go commercial on his own terms. Don’t block a charging bull.

    • wpj

      They had presentations by the production manger when showing investors around the unit. I assume by “the customer’s area” he means the 20x3x3 space where production was actually occurring.

    • Maybe I should clarify: This expert supposedly criticised ERV Penon for not paying attention to where the water came from and where it went, claiming that it was impossible to do the calorimetry without knowing this. And the ERV explained this was not true. Meaning that the water could come from the Rocky Mountains or from your bathroom—what was important was only the amount of water flowing through the heat plant, and how much it was heated.

      • Penon is correct.

        However it would be nice if the incoming water came from the mains and thus was metered by a utility (even if most of the water was recirculated — they would need to replenish the water lost as steam or absorbed in the customer process).

      • Andreas Moraitis

        They could at most suspect that there was a different fluid than water – alcohol maybe?

        • DrD

          I thought that but given that Mats has clarified the heat was transferred through a heat exchanger, the way to check that would NOT be in the “factory” but in the unit where it’s being generated and monitored.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            That was meant as a joke, DrD. Independently of that, I could think only of steam or air bubbles which might cause problems in such a setup. But I guess that they would not easily reach a flowmeter that it is mounted at the lowest point.

          • DrD

            Sorry, I’m a bit slow.
            It’s true that, I had tried think up ways they could have been hoodwinked but it wouldn’t have worked.

  • Jaw drop.

    ~$3+ M for a new factory rolling out half a million units per year?
    Daily comms from West and Fabiani to JT Vaughn?
    A summer buyout offer from Industrial Heat that Rossi rejected?
    Solid report; only discrediting Penon a viable strategy for IH?

    There is a lot to unpack here.

    • clovis ray

      In my opinion, the factory, may have production lines in place, and with only a few changes will have it running full throttle, building his kitties.
      this is my hope, and when new factories can be built, either there or elsewhere given time. but finding a factory with equipment already in house, that with only take a few design improvements, could have it running full throttle in no time at all, making his qx kat.

  • Jaw drop.

    ~$3+ M for a new factory rolling out half a million units per year?
    Daily comms from West and Fabiani to JT Vaughn?
    A summer buyout offer from Industrial Heat that Rossi rejected?
    Solid report; only discrediting Penon a viable strategy for IH?

    There is a lot to unpack here.

    • clovis ray

      In my opinion, the factory, may have production lines in place, and with only a few changes will have it running full throttle, building his kitties.
      this is my hope, and when new factories can be built, either there or elsewhere given time. but finding a factory with equipment already in house, that with only take a few design improvements, could have it running full throttle in no time at all, making his qx kat.

  • IH wanted to cancel the disaster of a test and pay Rossi a significant sum for 100 watts of excess heat at a reasonable COP. Rossi would have nothing to do with this. He was given his chance. Poor Mats – that hook is sunken so deep that it is going to have to rust out.

    https://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/index.php/Thread/3259-Mat-Lewan-Meets-Rossi-in-Sweden-Rossi-Bidding-on-Factory-For-QuarkX-Production/?postID=20080#post20080

    • 😀

      • Thank you, Mats, for chasing down all this info.

        You’re the one honest reporter doggedly pursuing what is (potentially) the most important story in the world. Good on you. Much appreciated!

        • Bruuce Williams

          I agree wholehartedly, thanks a lot Mats for all you are doing.

      • Pekka Janhunen

        Mats, you were wondering in the blog why would IH throw the hen away or something to that effect. Few people are ready to be part of a revolution and do chicken out (pun intended) when such opportunity arises, typically by finding some excuses. Relatively few people are capable of changing their operating mode, unless they are young. So, I’m not wondering about it very much. A professional investor who has made a fortune might just prefer to continue his business as usual, to continue working normally, to stay in his region of convenience, instead of having to learn completely new skills that someone else might know better.

        • Yes, you might be right Pekka. It’s just so different from how I see life. So sad, if it’s really like that.

          • I just can’t accept that. If these people are primarily about easy money then working E-Cats would be the easy money ticket of the millennium. All they would have to do is license it to a bigger fish and then roll around in the piles of money that came in. This can’t be the explanation.

            Especially in light of them holding on to their other LENR IP. This has to be either them trying to shake Rossi because he was only their second best option, or to force more Rossi IP in their direction or to keep the Rossi IP they do have already without shelling out $89 M — or some combination of the three.

            Or they have no choice and are throwing up roadblocks because they have to.

          • IF it is as bad as only going after the money (from funding partners), the reason for buying into other LENR IP would be to build at least some value in IH shares, in case IH loses Rossi’s license and investors want an explanation/something back.

          • You should talk to Woodford.

            They publicly and forcefully claimed due diligence and now, if you can believe IH at face value, they are largely screwed. I wonder what they think about all this.

        • HS61AF91

          Pure speculation: maybe some big ‘muckitymuck’ got pissed that new energy paradigms were being facilitated too fast for its profit/power/controls, and made IH an offer they could not refuse?

      • Adam

        I thank you too; the potential outcome leads to a revolution where psychopaths opposing this technology are identified, rounded up, and promptly disappeared.

        • Good thoughts. We’re all trying to make sense of this highly confusing situation.

          • psi2u2

            I agree, this is an intriguing coincidence and this scenario seems to quite plausibly explain the current situation.

          • The “battle over QX technology IP” scenario has a lot going for it. It was an unexpected radical advance that changed the game. Could the following sequence of events make sense:

            Rossi and IH reach agreement. Rossi get $11.5 M, IH gets HotCat IP.

            IH, knowing the agreement is stellar for them, starts to take advantage by bringing in Brillouin and others, sharing the HotCat IP among their growing team.

            Rossi gets wind of this and is ticked, becomes defensive and distrustful of IH.

            Unexpected rapid R&D advances result in the X, direct electricity production. Fabiani witnesses and reports back to IH.

            IH says screw this 1 year 1 MW low temp test. Let’s test the X at 100 W. Here’s a few million up front to ease the pain.

            Rossi, no longer trusting IH and realizing he has new leverage says take a hike and holds the X IP close to him. But hey if you want I’ll refund your money and we can consider the deal void.

            IH, now desperate to get their hands on the game changing X IP (as they feel they are due per the agreement, and I agree) decides to withhold final payment as leverage.

            Rossi, anticipating this maneuver, immediately files the lawsuit.

            IH threatens to destroy Rossi unless he plays ball. Hires a firm expect in doing just that.

            Rossi says do your worst, Brillouin-loving IP whores.

            FUD explodes on the Internet.

            Mats careful sifts fact from fiction. A clearer picture starts to emerge.

          • psi2u2

            This makes the best sense of any account I have heard.

          • Thanks, psi. It still doesn’t feel quite right to me for some reason. We have more to discover, I suspect.

          • psi2u2

            What do you think this would be about?

          • My gut tells me there are things that Rossi did that will come to light that we will not like and that there are other forces at play that so far remain hidden.

            Hah… sounds like a Harry Potter novel.

            Just guesses.

          • pg

            This seems a good analysis. I could not find anything I thought was wrong with it.

          • Bob

            No comments?
            The information above is from the same source that all the facts about steam, temperature, flow rates, who built what, who did the ballerina dance, who paid who, 1.5 million, 10 million, offers to back out, Quark X to be at customers by April 2016 (where has that escaped to?) and on and on.
            .
            IH posts nothing, following what 99% of all professional companies would do when involved in a lawsuit and it is taken as admission of guilt, sign of stupidity and basic unbelievable action. Yet we have over the years, a continuous pattern of statements that contradict, do not come true, greatly exaggerated and of questionable content. Yet, certain posts are picked and presented as “must be true” or fact by default, while completely ignoring the past!
            .
            How does one ignore so much while exalting the other?
            .
            Here is what is really known.. 5 years ago there was a demo with some steam tricking out of a rubber hose. Today we know there is a lawsuit. Other than that, we know nothing more. Every six months, production is in six months. Every six months, a new model/design replaces the exiting one. Every six months some certification will be made, yet never is of commercial relevance. A new secret customer replaces another secret customer. After 5 years we have not seen ANY hard fact, hard evidence, hard proof that is incontrovertible. We are no closer to seeing something actually for sale, that one can go purchase than we were 5 years ago. I had this same post in December and everyone was stating “in April” mass production will be started. Not.
            .
            Andrea Rossi 2013 : “Therefore the E-Cats, that soon will hit the market, will not fade, be sure” I am not so sure anymore.
            .
            How can I put faith in his statements about being offered big cash when so many previous statements turn out the same. No positive, only Negative. (F8 or is it F9?)

          • Ethel Mermaid

            LENR and the Ecat work as long as results are not high on your priority list.

          • timycelyn

            Bob, give it a rest, there’s a good chap. To be honest no-one can be bothered going over old ground with skeps.

            Be happy in the feeling you’ve got it right and enjoy smugly watching you future view unfold.

            We really don’t need to hear about it.

          • rionrlty

            This seems the most likely scenario yet. Good on you.

          • Steve Savage

            Given IH’s behavior so far, would you want them as a partner ?

    • Barbierir

      It’s interesting to see which version, if any, will be proved in court. Rossi’s version suggests the bottom of this story is the IP

      • Mats points out that given the mountain of information that E-Cats work as advertised it’s hard to wrap one’s head around Industrial Heat’s behavior, clearly never interested in the test and then trying to bail out if it (despite all the positive reports and before any gotcha calorimetry). As he says why cook the golden goose?

        I offer two possibilities:

        One – they found someone better and chose to ride a different horse. Maybe Brillouin but my sense is that it’d have to be someone even further along and about to beat Leonardo to market.

        Two – they’ve been told in no uncertain terms by an entity that has control over them that they need to slow walk this technology. Maybe the government. Maybe a much bigger fish.

        • DrD

          Only a guess but maybe they had grandiose ideas of dominating/controling the entire energy market.

        • georgehants
        • HS61AF91

          I was thinking number two too.

      • Stephen

        I guess it could be about territory conflicts and timing of the release. It seemed they weren’t very proactive in having the test in the first place. But who knows. Although it’s increasingly hard to imagine perhaps decision makers in IH did somehow misunderstand the information they received or were confused somehow about the data that was presented to them. A lot of things are still possible.

        • DrD

          I think AR made a mistake (or was duped) into signing away his IP so substantially and was probably relieved at this opportunity to back track. It’s for the Jury to decide now but I can imagine he might still not get out of the IP agreement and it’s not clear whether it also includes the Quark(X).

    • LuFong

      “pay Rossi a significant sum for 100 watts of excess heat at a reasonable COP. ” What’s Dewey Weaver saying here? I don’t follow. Is he now claiming Rossi’s technology works?

      • He’s claiming that IH thought the 1MW 1 year test was absurd and wanted to do something over a shorter time span even at a more modest power level. The implication is that when Rossi refused to do something simpler and shorter it was because he needed the large/longer setup for some reason to pull off the scam.

        • LuFong

          OK that makes sense and is consistent with what Dewey Weaver has been claiming prior.

        • Ged

          And they already had three shorter duration tests, so the guy’s statement is absurd.

          • I discount everything Dewey says. At best he’s a biased observer with some insider knowledge. At worst, much worse than that.

      • Rossi was offered $5M to back off last summer when IH got nervous about the (stellar) performance. He countered by offering the $11M back to cancel the license. IH denied it knowing the IP part of the agreement is worth billions. As I said a number of times, it’s all about the IP transfer. I guess Rossi at this point decided so save som of the IP until he was paid, which explains the importance and promptness in filing the complaint when payment was due. No one is happier than Rossi that IH did not pay … For some obscure reason IH did not see this coming, or they simply did not have the money.

        • LuFong

          Thank you for the additional information. According to the contract Rossi was supposed to transfer all IP when the $11.5M was transferred. Evidently as even you are claiming, Rossi did not do this. In addition it looks like IH is trying to back out of paying $89M but that does not make sense either given what we know.

          • I think that Rossi did transfer all the IP, referring to finalised technology, he had at that time. Meaning an E-Cat with COP~11, as IH claimed in its own patent application—the one Rossi wasn’t aware of.

          • LuFong

            Yes, it’s possible that IH is lying about the IP transfer and/or the patent. IH could prove it’s case by having an independent entity verify the technology as not working. Perhaps that is what they tried to do with Lugano.

            If however Rossi did not transfer all E-Cat IP then I see that as posing problems, according to the contract.

          • But there are not time constraints on the continous IP transfer. This is why IH not paying is good for Rossi; now he can get out of the contract and get rid of IH going heading for Europe instead

          • LuFong

            I agree. But there is always the possibility of a counter suit by IH (and knowing lawyers there probably will be) especially if they can show that Rossi did not transfer all IP (production ready).

          • Could happen I guess. Maybe US market is going to suffer. Rest of the world will be ok. But there is really not much point to it for IH since Rossi can go on working in Sweden during the time the Jones laywers charge IH their fees. This IH knows. Rossi is in no immidiate hurry. He got more important things to do.

          • SG

            This raises the specter of China getting anxious with IH’s strategy of delay, given that they have every motivation to be at the forefront of LENR adoption.

          • He probably transfered all existing IP at that point (long time ago now) so that is not an issue. What is important now is the continous know-how transfer during the MW test (to acheive COP~50) and the quarkX.

          • LuFong

            Rossi’s claim at that time was for a COP of 6. And then IH could just be lying as Rossi claims.

          • Something like that, yes. IH paid $11.5M for it and actually havent even done much backpedeling on it either.

          • LuFong

            Maybe IH got cold feet. The E-Cat technology just seemed to be too good to be true and they were worried about being taken for $100M. That would look very bad and if true would totally destroy IH’s credibility as a careful and credible investment firm. So they kept looking for dirt losing their objectivity in the process. If you keep looking for something you will find it eventually.

          • No. I think they thought they were smart, although they realized they had not got all IP in March, they probably believed they could negotiate it out of Rossi while keeping him i NDA leashes at the end of the MW test. They did see the complaint coming though, and they were taken off guard completely. Now they have nothing.

          • LuFong

            I’m not a lawyer, but it seems to me that if Rossi withheld IP when the $10M was transferred, then they would have justification for withholding the $89M for the test. In addition, if Rossi has indeed significantly improved his technology, IH would have a basis for countersuing for amounts significantly more than $89M and retention of IP rights since they purchased the IP rights. Again I’m not a lawyer but I see years of court battles over this and if Rossi did withhold IP then IH is in to make a lot of money.

            This to me is very bad news since I live in the US (but not as bad as if the E-Cat doesn’t work)!

          • Of interest to me is when does IP become IP? Surely tinkering at a lab bench is not IP. Are prototypes and tests IP? Maybe it’s only IP once patented?

            Maybe the ECat-QX is not IP yet, from a legal standpoint?

          • Buck

            LG,

            I want to think that Rossi had already discussed this with his attorney at around the time when the possibility of the E-Cat X began to show.

            If memory serves me in this matter, Rossi has been very direct and consistent with his characterization of the E-Cat X . . . it is still in the R&D phase.

            Not being an IP lawyer, my opinion holds little water. However, it is my strong hope that it is the R&D characterization which provides the legal justification for Rossi’s actions: You can’t share something that does not yet exist.

          • Perhaps, but Rossi’s lawyer also let him sign that horrendous agreement.

          • Buck

            Which showed all of its weaknesses once IH began to break with their fiduciary duty as described by Rossi’s complaint.

            I’m one of those who had high hopes about Darden given his speeches as posted here at ECW . . . he seemed to be the needed solution. But, Darden chose a path that seems to be incredibly short sighted from our vantage . . . especially when you include Mats newest shared information.

          • SG

            Indeed. My initial impressions of Mr. Darden were quite positive, although I was always a bit suspicious about his very publicly proclaimed “go slow” and “be patient” approach. With what has happened since that speech, we unfortunately have a better picture as to why.

          • Stephen Taylor

            The whole thing makes no sense and Dr. Rossi appears ill in the photo accompanying the article (presumably taken around the time of the interview?). What an amazing story. Is this another Mdm. Curie development of new physics? I wonder if history will record this or if it is insignificant. Significant maybe. I hope he is OK.

          • SG

            Agree with you about the appearance of Mr. Rossi. Concerned for him. Let’s hope it is nothing sinister.

          • Omega Z

            Rossi neglected his health durring the 1 year test.

            He is what you would call driven. I was of that nature when I was younger. I would push through the work day not eating until the work was done(12/16 hour days). I walked around with a pocket full of hard candies and would pop 1 in my mouth from time to time to stave off hunger pangs. That and a lot of caffeinated beverages. I would eat at the end of the day if I didn’t fall a sleep first.

          • LuFong

            Given that the 1MW plant is claimed to be actual commercial product, I would say that the IP used is production quality. My view is that IH should have gotten a device sufficient to demonstrate a COP of 6 for LT, and sufficient to demonstrate something comparable to the Hot Cat used in Lugano. Remember that Rossi claimed commercialization in 2011.

            I agree with you regarding the E-Cat QuarkX but there is no question, IH bought the rights to that as well (when it becomes ready).

          • Observer

            The word “bought” suggests it has been fully paid for.

          • Alan Smith

            IP is IP the very moment you think of it. It is ‘intellectual’ property. Not dependent on the creation or possession of any physical object. But in the case of something like QX it only has ‘hope value’ until you make it work. Until you have built and bench-tested it, it is eggs, but not chickens.
            .

          • Observer

            The IP in question was (and still is) in the development stage. It would be ludicrous to suggest that the contract gives IH the right to IP that Rossi himself has not yet solidified.

          • LuFong

            Given that the 1MW plant is claimed to be actual commercial product, I would say that the IP used is production quality. My view is that IH should have gotten a device sufficient to demonstrate a COP of 6 for LT, and sufficient to demonstrate something comparable to the Hot Cat used in Lugano.

          • The probably have something like COP 11 (since they are trying to patent it.)

          • Gerard McEk

            I would assume that the partner/customer to whom AR will be demonstrating the QuarkX will take care of the production too, so the small risk of loosing all his money in the suit may not be that dramatic.

          • Andre Blum

            To my mind, still, the most likely reason for IH not paying the $89M is the most mundane one: They cannot. They have not managed to collect the $89M from investors.
            Rossi is like a landlord collecting rent. The tenant, instead of saying he cannot pay, says he does not want to pay (yet) as the roof is leaking.

          • Stephen Taylor

            Best case scenario.

          • Zephir

            cheatedinvestor May 5, 2016 at 9:44 PM

            Dear Dr Andrea Rossi:

            Tom Darden together with Cherokee Investments Partners have filed for 2
            bankrupcies in February 2016. Their investors lost 23 million dollars.
            Obviously all money of the investors: the money just disappeared.

            postandcourier.com/article/20160208/PC05/160209426

            It appears that Mr Darden customary collects investments in companies
            that end up dissipating the money of the investors with the excuse that
            the business is not gone well. With you they just found the wrong man:
            against any expectation, the E-Cat works and you really want to make an
            industry to produce it: you have broken their rules.

          • Carl Wilson

            Darden et al were not after LENR IP but scamming IP? Rossi turned out to be a disappointment on that score?

          • pg

            You have to be an optimist person to try to achieve what he is, as the hurdles in the way are immense, and would be easy to get discouraged and give up.

          • Engineer48

            Real question is does Rossi want to be bound by the conditions imposed on him by the license / contract?

            Paying back IH the $11.5m would seem to be a small price to pay to recover all the IH territory & stop them engaging in LENR business directly or via sub licensees.

          • Alain Samoun

            We know that was a deal in 2008 during the real estate crisis,you can’t extrapolate it to the current situation with Rossi…

          • Omega Z

            There are more current situations going into bankruptcy.

          • Alain Samoun

            Well, they also have the money from the Chineses…?

          • pg

            I think it’s Chineseses…

          • Alain Samoun

            Right Chinese, Chinoiseries – in French 😉

          • Andre Blum

            How much was that?

          • Omega Z

            The Chinese investors committed to a facility in an R&D park.
            We don’t know if or how much of that $200 million would have landed in Darden’s hands.
            I’m betting they didn’t have the necessary funds or are just trying to delay LENR to market.

            If Darden physically traveled to Europe to dissuade others from supporting Rossi rather then a few phone calls, I would suspect it is about delaying this technology.. Darden has affiliation with those who would prefer at least a few years delay if not more.

          • pg

            Yes, but by the time they finish off in court, Rossi will be already producing the Quark-X in Europe, and IH will not have a thing.
            Worst that can happen to Rossi is that he has to refund IH of the money they paid plus the cost of his lawyers.
            If the Quark-X works as we think, he will be laughing at IH for a very long time.

          • LuFong

            No.

          • pg

            don’t have to be bitter about it…

          • Me neither. And I guess laywers can keep these things going forever as long as someone is paying them… I believe IP enough was transfered by the $11M payment, otherwise IH simply would not have paid. After that it gets a little foggy. Especially since there is not definition on when an idea gets to be IP etc.

            Maybe it is as simple that the ERV is what concludes the MW tech to be IP, and when not paing IH simply deny it. Then, what is there for them to claim? The QuarkX is hardly IP yet; only R&D.

          • LuFong

            The way the IP was supposed to be transferred is that Rossi puts his IP in escrow (trusted third party) and IH deposits $10M in escrow. Once this is done then escrow entity completes the exchange. Rossi then had to give them the formula for the fuel following this–perhaps he didn’t trust anybody with this–and he claims he did. IH would not have know until after they paid.

            All contracts have an element of good faith associated with them. It’s just impossible to write a perfect contract anticipating all possibilities. We also may not have all elements of their agreements, although we do have some amendments. By the way if you had not read David French’s assessment of the civil suit I highly recommend it. He views this as a payment dispute. The URL is: http://www.infinite-energy.com/iemagazine/issue127/the-rossi-industrial-heat-lawsuit.html

            There was most definitely additional IP in the 1MW test. For one, Rossi modified the fuel (and in fact used four versions of it) to last 1 year based on the Lugano results (according to him). Additionally the COP of 50 was well beyond the expected COP so Rossi made improvements. These I would expect to be transferred at some point. What should have been transferred would probably be something consistant with the Lugano results, since evidently IH built that completely themselves (although I have doubts about that).

          • I agree there is certainly IP from the MW test not transfered yet, because the ERV was to certify it being real… But IH is spinning that there is no MW … So from their point of view there is no such COP 50 IP … good for Rossi that is…

          • Josh G

            Yes, and it’s pretty evident from the way that Dewey Weaver is just flailing all over the place.

          • pg

            No.

        • cashmemorz

          This seems to clear it up for me. At first I interpreted “substantiate” to mean to give further undeniable bullet proof evidence that the E-Cat in the year test worked. The way you put it that ” the IP part of the agreement is worth billions. As I said a number of times, it’s all about the IP transfer” the term “substantiate” this way means that IH wanted confirmation on their terms in way that was for their own (IH) benefit.

    • clovis ray

      barty,
      listen the only problem with your thinking is, I/H owed HIM 89 MILL., not some SIGNIFICANT SUM. although that is a significant sum, it is nothing, compared to what it is worth.

  • IH wanted to cancel the disaster of a test and pay Rossi a significant sum for 100 watts of excess heat at a reasonable COP. Rossi would have nothing to do with this. He was given his chance. Poor Mats – that hook is sunken so deep that it is going to have to rust out.

    https://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/index.php/Thread/3259-Mat-Lewan-Meets-Rossi-in-Sweden-Rossi-Bidding-on-Factory-For-QuarkX-Production/?postID=20080#post20080

    • 😀

      • Thank you, Mats, for chasing down all this info.

        You’re the one honest reporter doggedly pursuing what is (potentially) the most important story in the world. Good on you. Much appreciated!

        • Bruuce Williams

          I agree wholehartedly, thanks a lot Mats for all you are doing.

      • Pekka Janhunen

        Mats, you were wondering in the blog why would IH throw the hen away or something to that effect. Few people are ready to be part of a revolution and do chicken out (pun intended) when such opportunity arises, typically by finding some excuses. Relatively few people are capable of changing their operating mode, unless they are young. So, I’m not wondering about it very much. A professional investor who has made a fortune might just prefer to continue his business as usual, to continue working normally, to stay in his region of convenience, instead of having to learn completely new skills that someone else might know better.

        • Yes, you might be right Pekka. It’s just so different from how I see life. So sad, if it’s really like that.

          • I just can’t accept that. If these people are primarily about easy money then working E-Cats would be the easy money ticket of the millennium. All they would have to do is license it to a bigger fish and then roll around in the piles of money that came in. This can’t be the explanation.

            Especially in light of them holding on to their other LENR IP. This has to be either them trying to shake Rossi because he was only their second best option, or to force more Rossi IP in their direction or to keep the Rossi IP they do have already without shelling out $89 M — or some combination of the three.

            Or they have no choice and are throwing up roadblocks because they have to.

          • IF it is as bad as only going after the money (from funding partners), the reason for buying into other LENR IP would be to build at least some value in IH shares, in case IH loses Rossi’s license and investors want an explanation/something back.

          • You should talk to Woodford.

            They publicly and forcefully claimed due diligence and now, if you can believe IH at face value, they are largely screwed. I wonder what they think about all this.

        • HS61AF91

          Pure speculation: maybe some big ‘muckitymuck’ got pissed that new energy paradigms were being facilitated too fast for its profit/power/controls, and made IH an offer they could not refuse?

      • Adam

        I thank you too; the potential outcome leads to a revolution where psychopaths opposing this technology are identified, rounded up, and promptly disappeared.

      • Rip Kirbyian

        So Mats, can you tell us more about Dardens visit to Sweden. What is the current position on the E-cat within the Swedish research team?

    • Barbierir

      It’s interesting to see which version, if any, will be proved in court. Rossi’s version suggests the bottom of this story is the IP

      • Mats points out that given the mountain of information that E-Cats work as advertised it’s hard to wrap one’s head around Industrial Heat’s behavior, clearly never interested in the test and then trying to bail out if it (despite all the positive reports and before any gotcha calorimetry). As he says why cook the golden goose?

        I offer two possibilities:

        One – they found someone better and chose to ride a different horse. Maybe Brillouin but my sense is that it’d have to be someone even further along and about to beat Leonardo to market.

        Two – they’ve been told in no uncertain terms by an entity that has control over them that they need to slow walk this technology. Maybe the government. Maybe a much bigger fish.

      • Stephen

        I guess it could be about territory conflicts and timing of the release. It seemed they weren’t very proactive in having the test in the first place. But who knows. Although it’s increasingly hard to imagine perhaps decision makers in IH did somehow misunderstand the information they received or were confused somehow about the data that was presented to them. A lot of things are still possible.

        • DrD

          I think AR made a mistake (or was duped) into signing away his IP so substantially and was probably relieved at this opportunity to back track. It’s for the Jury to decide now but I can imagine he might still not get out of the IP agreement and it’s not clear whether it also includes the Quark(X).

    • Viking Chems

      100 watts of excess heat ….
      Are we speaking about the Quark X or the Hot-Cat?

      Maybe I.H rather wanted to test the Quark X technology. Rossi refused to demonstrate it to I.H and then “other things happened”?

    • clovis ray

      barty,
      listen the only problem with your thinking is, I/H owed HIM 89 MILL., not some SIGNIFICANT SUM. although that is a significant sum, it is nothing, compared to what it is worth.

  • georgehants

    Mats, did you get enough time with Mr. Rossi to discuss the upcoming demonstration in June?
    The whole court case becomes irrelevant to Cold Fusion if Mr. Rossi gives an open, checkable, demonstration anywhere.

    • Nope. But I will try to get back to that.

  • “Rossi’s counter offer was to give back the already paid 11.5M and cancel the license agreement, but IH didn’t accept.”

    If this is true it has tremendous implications.

    • f sedei

      This tells me that Rossi has something more that IH thinks they are entitled.

  • “Rossi’s counter offer was to give back the already paid 11.5M and cancel the license agreement, but IH didn’t accept.”

    If this is true it has tremendous implications.

    • f sedei

      This tells me that Rossi has something more that IH thinks they are entitled.

  • ChongChong

    Millions were taken from Chinese investors. What’s IH going to do with that sum. They will setup B.E in China instead of Rossi therefore they need full ecat tech transferred to B.E. Rossi found out and sue.
    Now Chinese commies may be angry and hit back with naked killers Darden is playing with hell fire.

  • Andreas Moraitis

    The reported 36 m^3 of water per day (according to Mats’ article the flowmeter was positioned correctly…) matches quite well the reported COP of 50 (20 kW electric input assumed). And even if the water had not been vaporized but only heated from 60C to 100C, the COP would come to about 3.5. The contract required a minimum of > 2.6, as far as I remember.

    • DrD

      Yes, but amazingly AR suggested and they agreed to ignore the energy to heat the recirc water from 60 to the boiling point.

      • Andreas Moraitis

        No problem since this makes only 6.9% of the total amount. The COP would then come to 47 – so maybe the electric input was slightly higher than 20 kW.

        • Andreas Moraitis

          “Slightly lower”, of course.

        • DrD

          No, they ignored the output needed to warm the recirc, in other words there was MORE ouptut so its 53. I read that over n over and I’m pretty sure i haven’t got it the wrong way round. Apologies if i have.
          Edit, meaning the power out value didnt include the energy needed to heat the water to 100 degC. Very odd though, very unscientific. As you say its only a few %, whats a few % among friends.

          • You are correct. According to Mats, Rossi insisted on conservative calculations to avoid any ambiguity.

            Interesting that he did that.

            The only question is did Rossi drop the mic at any point, when the results started rolling in.

          • 😉 wouldn’t think so. I think he was prepared.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            My first calculation included the energy for heating up the water (1.674 MWh). Vaporizing requires 22.57 MWh. So together we get (22.57+1.674)MWh/(24h*20kW) = 50.5, without the 1.674 MWh the result is 47. A COP of 50 would then indicate 18.8 kW of input power. (But as always, there is no guarantee for my numbers…)

  • DrD

    So much to digest!
    The COP > 50 was very conservative if two chunks of energy production were ignored.
    Will the US lose out if production moves to Europe.
    AR’s counter offer to buy back the IP and IH wanting to cancel the trial!

  • DrD

    So much to digest!
    The COP > 50 was very conservative if two chunks of energy production were ignored.
    Will the US lose out if production moves to Europe.
    AR’s counter offer to buy back the IP and IH wanting to cancel the trial!

  • Private Citizen

    Hearing from one party in a divorce is always a persuasive tale of hero v. villain.

    Hard to conceive IH could possibly have a case, given this telling by Rossi.

    Good to get a lot of new hard info in the matter. Thanks. Guess we just stay tuned. IH doesn’t have much longer before they file. Or maybe this will spur some surrogates to answer immediately.

  • Private Citizen

    Hearing from one party in a divorce is always a persuasive tale of hero v. villain.

    Hard to conceive IH could possibly have a case, given this telling by Rossi.

    Good to get a lot of new hard info in the matter. Thanks. Guess we just stay tuned. IH doesn’t have much longer before they file. Or maybe this will spur some surrogates to answer immediately.

  • Viking Chems

    In light of this new suggested information it is interesting again to consider statements of John Dewey Weaver.

    John Dewey Weaver claims that A.R wanted to remove some flow meter that Industrial Heat had or wanted to put in place. If what A.R saying is true and can be proved later on, that could mean that long after the test started I.H wanted to add a flow-meter with (?) irrelevancy for the outcome of the test.

    Because (IF) the test already at that point produced numbers favorable for Rossi, it would not be in his interest to change anything. Rossi just wanted his millions so he could get on with production elsewhere as it seemed to him that I.H was go forward very slowly, possible so that associates could get out of their fossil fuel investments.

    If it can be proven that I.H was offered to sell back the IP to Rossi, that would also be very interesting to have established.

    I also noted as pointed out before, Dewey has said many times that they wanted to discontinue the 1MW test in favor of a small test even if it so only produced 100 Watts. Funny enough, 100 Watts is the proposed efficiency of the separate independent Quark X technology that Rossi claims to develop.

    Maybe I.H in their view think that Rossi had broken the licensee agreement when he did not share the Quark X IP and therefore they started to gobble up all the competitors of Rossi to be in a better position to sell Rossi technology without Rossi, as well expands the regions in which they are allowed to do business. Only problem is that Rossi still owns a lot of I.P that can make this difficult for I.H, especially if an equally qualified horde of lawyers start defending that I.P – sooo therefore I.H does not want to break or damage the licensee agreement, because as a very least, the judicial process could take years.

    Just a theory – based on information currently available.

    • Good thoughts. We’re all trying to make sense of this highly confusing situation.

      • psi2u2

        I agree, this is an intriguing coincidence and this scenario seems to quite plausibly explain the current situation.

        Am I also correct in remembering that at one point Rossi replied in the affirmative when asked in the license included the Quark X? If so, what are the implications of this?

        • The “battle over QX technology IP” scenario has a lot going for it. It was an unexpected radical advance that changed the game. Could the following sequence of events make sense?:

          Rossi and IH reach agreement. Rossi get $11.5 M, IH gets HotCat IP.

          IH, knowing the agreement is stellar for them, starts to take advantage by bringing in Brillouin and others, sharing the HotCat IP among their growing team.

          Rossi gets wind of this and is ticked, becomes defensive and distrustful of IH.

          Unexpected rapid R&D advances result in the X, direct electricity production. Fabiani witnesses and reports back to IH.

          IH says screw this 1 year 1 MW low temp test. Let’s test the X at 100 W. Here’s a few million up front to ease the pain.

          Rossi, no longer trusting IH and realizing he has new leverage says take a hike and holds the X IP close to him. But hey if you want I’ll refund your money and we can consider the deal void.

          IH, now desperate to get their hands on the game changing X IP (as they feel they are due per the agreement, and I agree) decides to withhold final payment as leverage.

          Rossi, anticipating this maneuver, immediately files the lawsuit.

          IH threatens to destroy Rossi unless he plays ball. Hires a firm expert in doing just that.

          Rossi says do your worst, Brillouin-loving IP whores.

          FUD explodes on the Internet.

          Mats carefully sifts fact from fiction. A clearer picture starts to emerge.

          • psi2u2

            This makes the best sense of any account I have heard.

          • Thanks, psi. It still doesn’t feel quite right to me for some reason. We have more to discover, I suspect.

          • psi2u2

            What do you think this would be about?

          • My gut tells me there are things that Rossi did that will come to light that we will not like and that there are other forces at play that so far remain hidden.

            Hah… sounds like a Harry Potter novel.

            Just guesses.

          • pg

            This seems a good analysis. I could not find anything I thought was wrong with it.

          • rionrlty

            This seems the most likely scenario yet. Good on you.

        • Robert Dorr

          Rossi did indeed say that I.H had access to all the IP including the Quark X.

  • LuFong

    Kudos to Mats Lewan for continuing with the fact finding in this ever-engrossing saga. I tend to agree with him about most everything except I’m less accepting of the what Rossi has stated as facts.

    I, like Mats, am completely perplexed as to why IH would claim that Rossi’s technology, potentially worth $billions if not $trillions, would claim fraud in an effort to avoid paying $89M and steal Rossi’s technology, when for $89M they would have it for half the world. The statement (by Rossi) that Rossi offered the $11.5M back in exchange for the licences, if true, is particularly troubling. Ball is in IH’s court!

    • bfast

      Ok, so I just had a thought.
      Many of us are concerned that the lawsuit will linger in American courts for years, maybe decades. We fear that the LENR revolution will pass us by because of this stupid IH thing.

      However, if Rossi gets a factory going in Sweden, manufacturing and shipping QuarkX’s won’t this about kill IH’s position in the lawsuit? It’ll place North America behind the lead, but once QuarkX ships, IH must ship out I think.

      Go Rossi!

      • If Rossi holds the trump card of working E-Cat technology, then the energy revolution is imminent and the IH matter will fade into insignificance (as will they due to their bumbling — unless they have something better).

        If not, then, we get to either watch Rossi’s all-star fraud team crash and burn or a continuance of a scam for the ages with new and better victims.

      • I guess Rossi believs it will take a year or two for the lawsuit but this is not important. During the time the IH contract is i limbo and Rossi can focus on the European market. And since IH seems to go all in on the fraud/copy-paste scenario a quarkX in the market would as you say free up the IH territories as well.

      • sam

        Andrea Rossi
        May 16, 2016 at 6:44 AM
        “Jag bara undrar”:
        I agree, but, probably, before the suit will arrive to the verdict, a very important event will happen in the market, independently from the civil suit. I am dedicating the 90% of my working time to make this event possible.
        Warm Regards,
        A.R.

    • Dr. Mike

      Thanks to Mats for this additional data from Rossi for those of us anxiously awaiting the report on the 350 day test of the 1MW system. As Andreas Moraitis pointed out in his comment below, the system achieved a COP of 3.5 even if the circulating water was just heated to 100C with none being converted to steam (which will surely be a concern by those reviewing the report). One additional bit of data that would be good to have is how much heat is required by the customer to get the desired output from his system. If the customer can verify that it takes a minimum amount of heat to run his process and the process was working the full 350 days of operation, then this number has to be the minimum output of Rossi’s plant. I don’t expect to see this data in the report, but Rossi might want to have his customer provide this data for the court proceedings.

      • LuFong

        The customer should be deposed as it’s production use is an important, independent, verification of the 1MW E-Cat plant performance.

  • bfast

    Ok, so I just had a thought.
    Many of us are concerned that the lawsuit will linger in American courts for years, maybe decades. We fear that the LENR revolution will pass us by because of this stupid IH thing.

    However, if Rossi gets a factory going in Sweden, manufacturing and shipping QuarkX’s won’t this about kill IH’s position in the lawsuit? It’ll place North America behind the lead, but once QuarkX ships, IH must ship out I think.

    Go Rossi!

    • If Rossi holds the trump card of working E-Cat technology, then the energy revolution is imminent and the IH matter will fade into insignificance (as will they due to their bumbling — unless they have something better).

      If not, then, we get to either watch Rossi’s all-star fraud team crash and burn or a continuance of a scam for the ages with new and better victims.

    • I guess Rossi believs it will take a year or two for the lawsuit but this is not important. During the time the IH contract is i limbo and Rossi can focus on the European market. And since IH seems to go all in on the fraud/copy-paste scenario a quarkX in the market would as you say free up the IH territories as well.

      • Jerry Soloman

        looks like brillouin energy has Rossi IP now through IH, and IH is interested in commercial units only and the control this offers.

    • sam

      Andrea Rossi
      May 16, 2016 at 6:44 AM
      “Jag bara undrar”:
      I agree, but, probably, before the suit will arrive to the verdict, a very important event will happen in the market, independently from the civil suit. I am dedicating the 90% of my working time to make this event possible.
      Warm Regards,
      A.R.

  • Dr. Mike

    Thanks to Mats for this additional data from Rossi for those of us anxiously awaiting the report on the 350 day test of the 1MW system. As Andreas Moraitis pointed out in his comment below, the system achieved a COP of 3.5 even if the circulating water was just heated to 100C with none being converted to steam (which will surely be a concern by those reviewing the report). One additional bit of data that would be good to have is how much heat is required by the customer to get the desired output from his system. If the customer can verify that it takes a minimum amount of heat to run his process and the process was working the full 350 days of operation, then this number has to be the minimum output of Rossi’s plant. I don’t expect to see this data in the report, but Rossi might want to have his customer provide this data for the court proceedings.

  • Edac

    If Rossi only has $11.5M available, why is he spending $3M to $5m on buying a factory. He would be much wiser to rent a factory and keeping the cash available for development, marketing, etc. $11.5M is a very small sum to start building 500,000 of anything per year.

    • Well according to Rossi there will be some kind of live demo in the not to far future. That little thingy could possible increase his cashflow. Lets say that the first 100,000 units is pre-ordered, well then money might not be much of a problem. According to himself, money does not seem to be much of a problem.
      He could as well of course I suppose produce electricity, light or heat and sell that. The possibilities are endless if the stuff actually works.

  • Zeddicus23

    There seems to be a lot of emphasis in the discussion that the 1 year test was either not necessary to prove that the ecat works or excessively long as a possible delaying tactic. But this ignores what I thought was the main point of the 1-year test, e.g. to prove, having established that it already worked in the previous tests such as the in-house 24-hour tests etc. that it could run safely and over a long period of time (without refueling) as the next step towards commercialization. The larger scale of the test as well as the massive number of ecat-hours tested also provide a measure of reliability that can be used for future development/engineering. Rossi also mentioned that he learned a lot from the test in terms of engineering certain aspects of the components (heat flow, control, etc?)

    • Yup. The players involved all know with certainty whether the tech works or not (even if we don’t). The long-term test was at some point a necessary stepping stone toward commercialization of a product that is supposed to last for more than 6 months.

      I think the complication was the emergence of the E-Cat X and electricity production. Rossi wanted to stay the course and get his $89 M and get closer to market. Perhaps IH wanted to abort the long term test and concentrate on the X technology.

      And then everything went sideways when Rossi did not share the X IP.

  • Zeddicus23

    There seems to be a lot of emphasis in the discussion that the 1 year test was either not necessary to prove that the ecat works or excessively long as a possible delaying tactic. But this ignores what I thought was the main point of the 1-year test, e.g. to prove, having established that it already worked in the previous tests such as the in-house 24-hour tests etc. that it could run safely and over a long period of time (without refueling) as the next step towards commercialization. The larger scale of the test as well as the massive number of ecat-hours tested also provide a measure of reliability that can be used for future development/engineering. Rossi also mentioned that he learned a lot from the test in terms of engineering certain aspects of the components (heat flow, control, etc?)

    • Yup. The players involved all know with certainty whether the tech works or not (even if we don’t). The long-term test was at some point a necessary stepping stone toward commercialization of a product that is supposed to last for more than 6 months.

      I think the complication was the emergence of the E-Cat X and electricity production. Rossi wanted to stay the course and get his $89 M and get closer to market. Perhaps IH wanted to abort the long term test and concentrate on the X technology.

      And then everything went sideways when Rossi did not share the X IP.

  • timycelyn

    Several elements may have led IH to their apparently crazy and irrational behaviour.

    1. Simply playing out of their league. They got scared and bottled it.
    2. Cherokee is short of dough – too many remediation projects going t*ts up.
    3. Rossi must be one tough customer to deal with once you’ve pressed his paranoia button…

    • I think a more compelling argument is that they are calculating businessmen practiced in the art of maximizing their position.

      You can see it in the agreement which favors them tremendously. You can see it in the way they started to buy up related IP, file new patents with their guy’s name on it and the way they shared the E-Cat IP so as not to be reliant on Rossi. You can see it in the unwillingness to pay $89 M if they don’t absolutely have to or to use it as leverage to get something else they want.

      They don’t really care about any hurt feeling or perceptions of not playing fair. They will do whatever they legally can to reward their shareholders.

      • Correct. They almost cheated him on the IP in the contract and thought they had him bottled by March 10. They made the mistake of the century though when they misjudged him on the complaint. He knew they were going to defraud him on the payment during the autumn and took action.

    • Bruce__H

      How about this?

      Those at IH are optimistic about LENR generally but have come to believe that Rossi has been scamming them. Don’t all the IH behaviours look quite reasonable if this is true? Which behaviours would you regard as crazy or irrational if this is their viewpoint?

      • timycelyn

        Refusing Rossi’s buyback offer for one.

  • timycelyn

    Several elements may have led IH to their apparently crazy and irrational behaviour.

    1. Simply playing out of their league. They got scared and bottled it.
    2. Cherokee is short of dough – too many remediation projects going t*ts up.
    3. Rossi must be one tough customer to deal with once you’ve pressed his paranoia button…

    • I think a more compelling argument is that they are calculating businessmen practiced in the art of maximizing their position.

      You can see it in the agreement which favors them tremendously. You can see it in the way they started to buy up related IP, file new patents with their guy’s name on it and the way they shared the E-Cat IP so as not to be reliant on Rossi. You can see it in the unwillingness to pay $89 M if they don’t absolutely have to or to use it as leverage to get something else they want.

      They don’t really care about any hurt feeling or perceptions of not playing fair. They will do whatever they legally can to reward their shareholders.

      • Correct. They almost cheated him on the IP in the contract and thought they had him bottled by March 10. They made the mistake of the century though when they misjudged him on the complaint. He knew they were going to defraud him on the payment during the autumn and took action.

      • Björn

        Yes, claiming that the test failed fits in a re negotiating scheme. They try to break Rossis will, lol! GL with that!😂

    • Bruce__H

      How about this? Those at IH are optimistic about LENR generally but have come to believe that Rossi has been scamming them.

      Don’t all the IH behaviours look quite reasonable if this is true? Which behaviours would you regard as crazy or irrational if this is their viewpoint?

      • timycelyn

        Refusing Rossi’s buyback offer for one.

  • Edac

    If Rossi only has $11.5M available, why is he spending $3M to $5m on buying a factory. He would be much wiser to rent a factory and keeping the cash available for development, marketing, etc. $11.5M is a very small sum to start building 500,000 of anything per year.

    • US_Citizen71

      First thought owning the property is better for security. No owner visits or contractors lurking around while fixing plumbing etc.

  • Jamie Sibley

    I have an idea why IH might be suing Rossi.

    What if IH fully intends to pay the $100M, by loosing a battle in court.

    If IH plans to hit the market fast and hard, what better way to make everyone believe they have a real product, than a recent court ruling in Rossi’s favor.

    There is always much discussion here that, a product on the market, and word of mouth is all that is needed to prove LENR is real, but what if IH knows that the reverse engineering against them will move much faster than word of mouth will build them customers.

    I think the high profile negative press they will receive with this lawsuit will instantly give them, and the IP they own, huge credit with their customers.

    • This is my dream scenario, that it’s all theater and part of a big roll out.

      There’s just not much evidence to support it though. The one shred is that Industrial Heat hired the big APCO PR firm, perfect for doing something like that (but also for FUDding problems away as part of damage control). It’s not outside the realm of possibility…

      Really long odds though.

    • pg

      Yeah, don’t think so. But I understand the attractiveness.

    • psi2u2

      How do we know IH is suing Rossi? Rossi is suing IH. Whether IH countersues remains to be seen.

  • Jamie Sibley

    I have an idea why IH might be suing Rossi.

    What if IH fully intends to pay the $100M, by loosing a battle in court.

    If IH plans to hit the market fast and hard, what better way to make everyone believe they have a real product, than a recent court ruling in Rossi’s favor.

    There is always much discussion here that, a product on the market, and word of mouth is all that is needed to prove LENR is real, but what if IH knows that the reverse engineering against them will move much faster than word of mouth will build them customers.

    I think the high profile negative press they will receive with this lawsuit will instantly give them, and the IP they own, huge credit with their customers.

    • This is my dream scenario, that it’s all theater and part of a big roll out.

      There’s just not much evidence to support it though. The one shred is that Industrial Heat hired the big APCO PR firm, perfect for doing something like that (but also for FUDding problems away as part of damage control). It’s not outside the realm of possibility…

      Really long odds though.

    • pg

      Yeah, don’t think so. But I understand the attractiveness.

    • psi2u2

      How do we know IH is suing Rossi? Rossi is suing IH. Whether IH countersues remains to be seen.

  • sam

    During summer 2015, IH offered Rossi to back out from the test and cancel it, with a significant sum of money as compensation. Rossi’s counter offer was to give back the already paid 11.5M and cancel the license agreement, but IH didn’t accept.
    Does any one have an opinion why T.D
    or A.R did not accept there offers to
    settle and end the partnership.

    • SG

      There is only one logical explanation: Mr. Rossi has what he says he has.

    • Barbierir
      • Barbierir

        Answer: “I’ve just confirmed that Rossi made no such buy-back offer to IH. It’s a yet another lie”.

        • SG

          Lies stacked on lies? Good thing this is before a court of justice, because that is the only way we will ever get to the bottom of the “lies.”

        • pg

          Sure.

        • sam

          I would much rather have Tom Darden response.
          At least Rossi says something
          so why not Darden.

          • SG

            By feeding information to a third party, and trickling the information out that way, Mr. Darden limits the information from being used against him in court, known as impeaching the witness. Hearsay is not admissible in court. And what Mr. Weaver is spreading around the Internet would be hearsay, and therefore, inadmissible. It is a great way to get “half-truth” information into the public record without being held to account for it.

        • Josh G

          But notice he did not deny that IH offered Rossi to cut a deal for less than 89 million. He just claimed that Rossi never offered to refund their money in exchange for cancelling the license agreement.

          • Winebuff67

            We should know a lot more on June 12

          • sam

            There is the possibility that they
            are both crooks.
            Wouldn’t that be something.

      • Frank Acland

        I was referencing a point in Mats’ article: “During summer 2015, IH offered Rossi to back out from the test and cancel it, with a significant sum of money as compensation. Rossi’s counter offer was to give back the already paid 11.5M and cancel the license agreement, but IH didn’t accept.”

        • Stephen

          Wow 500,000 low powered efficient robots after 1year would certainly increase the production rate.

    • SG

      Better to always be prepared for disappointment–so agree with you there.

      “Rossi has posted several times in the past few years that his
      “robotized” factory is a “magnificenze” and that the robots were only
      waiting for software and that he was able to produce vast quantities
      within months. Yet now we have some more “solid facts” that he does not
      even have a building and is looking to buy one. Again, this is not
      bad, it just points out that one cannot take every single thing Rossi
      says as being reality. ”

      Mr. Rossi’s “magnificent” declarations were with respect to the 1MW plant, at least as I remember, not the robotized factory. He has talked of establishing a relationship with the potential provider of the robots (ABB), and there is nothing to suggest so far that this isn’t true. How do you know that he does not even have a building? Are you saying that given he is looking to buy a building in Sweden, that it is impossible that he has any other? Such logic doesn’t process.

    • Roland

      No.

      • sam

        What happens if IH has to pay the 89 million
        the contract between AR and TD still valid.

        • My impression is that Rossi doesn’t want Ih any longer, even if they pay. And that he considers the agreement broken since they didn’t pay $89M within the stipulated time, thus too late to try to save it even if they tried.

          • Engineer48

            The IH license is dead. Rossi will make sure that happens.

            You need to live with Italians / southern Europeans and understand how they react when they think they have been screwed.

          • 😀

          • Engineer48

            Glad we are on the same page Mats.

            My wife is southern European. Family and friend are all that matters. However one should never underestimate how they will react when taken advantage of. Really big fireworks!!!!!!

            Yanks will never understand southern European culture.

      • IH have no production facilities other than whoever they hired to build the prototypes, and no research facilities other than those of a few of AR’s competitors. They also appear to have proved themselves deceitful and untrustworthy, so ‘No’ is probably rather understating Rossi’s willingness to work with them again.

        • Engineer48

          I believe the IH intention was to “Flip” the IP to a big thermal power plant manufacturer like GE, enjoy a large “Flip” profit and then ride a commission of sales % gravy train for as long as it lasts.

          The contract appears to have been written to support this occurring with it very generous sublicense capability and a non compete requirement on Rossi.

          Explains why IH had no desire (according to Weaver) to spend capital to support the construction of dual prime and backup reactors and the payment of the $89m. Gave IH no advantage and cost then maybe $91m ($89m to Rossi and $2m to build and operate the 2 plants over 1 year).

          However as Rossi was apparently intent on manufacturing and sales, having a 1 year 1MW successful plant (paid for by IH) would fit his requirement very nicely.

          • Yes, that sounds about right.

      • Engineer48

        I agree.

  • sam

    During summer 2015, IH offered Rossi to back out from the test and cancel it, with a significant sum of money as compensation. Rossi’s counter offer was to give back the already paid 11.5M and cancel the license agreement, but IH didn’t accept.
    Does any one have an opinion why T.D
    or A.R did not accept there offers to
    settle and end the partnership.

    • SG

      There is only one logical explanation: Mr. Rossi has what he says he has.

    • Barbierir
      • Barbierir

        Answer: “I’ve just confirmed that Rossi made no such buy-back offer to IH. It’s a yet another lie”.

        • SG

          Lies stacked on lies? Good thing this is before a court of justice, because that is the only way we will ever get to the bottom of the “lies.”

        • pg

          Sure.

        • sam

          I would much rather have Tom Darden response.
          At least Rossi says something
          so why not Darden.

          • SG

            By feeding information to a third party, and trickling the information out that way, Mr. Darden limits the information from being used against him in court, known as impeaching the witness. Hearsay is not admissible in court. And what Mr. Weaver is spreading around the Internet would be hearsay, and therefore, inadmissible. It is a great way to get “half-truth” information into the public record without being held to account for it.

          • clovis ray

            yup,

        • Josh G

          But notice he did not deny that IH offered Rossi to cut a deal for less than 89 million. He just claimed that Rossi never offered to refund their money in exchange for cancelling the license agreement.

    • Bob

      My idea or opinion is that the story is presented from only one point of view. I imagine that IH’s view will be quite different that what was presented by Rossi. Just because Rossi posted that IH made some offer to back out, does not make it literally true. Rossi also stated throughout 2015 that the secret customer was using the plant in their daily production. We now know the plant was not the customer’s, it was setup by Leonardo Corp. We know that they are not producing product there now. So what he stated then was not literally true. Was product produced? Possibly. Was the customer’s production equipment used? Possibly, but HIGHLY unlikely. Do you think someone would shut down a production line, ship it across the Atlantic, setup the equipment up in some strip mall type warehouse all to test a heat source. More likely to ship the already “containered” heat source to the existing plant.
      .
      I have not seen an out right lie from Rossi. But I have seen MANY statements that are so not literal either. More often, a simple “yes” is turned into a complete new design, ready for production and already sending us to Mars by some on this list..
      .
      Mats is a sincere reporter. I do not doubt that he met with Rossi and that he is reporting nothing but what he heard. But what he heard was more “Rossi says”. Mats has inside sources, so does Jed Rothwel. Both are PRO LENR but one is very Pro-Rossi while the other is very skeptical. Rossi filed a lawsuit and IH replied it had no merit.
      .
      In the end, one story will be vindicated. However in my opinion, it will be behind NDA’s unless it comes to a criminal prosecution. On either party!

      • sam

        There is the possibility that they
        are both crooks.
        Wouldn’t that be something.

  • US_Citizen71

    First thought owning the property is better for security. No owner visits or contractors lurking around while fixing plumbing etc.

  • Bob

    People…
    All the conjecture is interesting, but so much of it here is stated as fact! At this point, it is nothing more than Rossi says and we need to keep even keeled on the subject. At least I am.
    .
    Why does not any one note that the plant was in building “A” and the heat was used in building “B”. Rossi could go in building “B” but not “IH”? This is very odd as well. The customer is trying to out a new heat source. Are they super secret military? This is odd. I am not saying anything other than that, it is odd.
    .
    The customer is still secret but plans on buying 3 more units. Why secret? The standard response is to prevent the “hurricane from the blogosphere”! This is silly. IH became public. Have they “folded” due to the “hurricane”? Have you even seen one main stream media report? This secret business is not good and truthfully again lacks solid foundation. Keeping competitors ignorant that they now have some high efficiency power supply? Sure.
    .
    Rossi has posted several times in the past few years that his “robotized” factory is a “magnificenze” and that the robots were only waiting for software and that he was able to produce vast quantities within months. Yet now we have some more “solid facts” that he does not even have a building and is looking to buy one. Again, this is not bad, it just points out that one cannot take every single thing Rossi says as being reality.
    .
    I have followed this story since 2011. I have learned one thing for sure. Every “big” event, every “important” test, every “certification”, every “secret” customer, all “announced sales”, every “partnership” and every test has been significantly disappointing. Historically, I have not seen a single customer made public, every test has been disappointingly poor, questionable nor even independant, every “sale” never proven, every certification meaningless. Everything a disappointment.
    .
    I hope I am wrong, but I am telling you, this lawsuit will be a disappointment as well. Rossi blogs often as usual, but at the end of the story, disappointment. .
    .
    Cherokee manages billions of dollars. 89 million is a drop in the bucket. Darden is said to have done the 11 million from his own pocket. This is not about the what money is available. Darden is not a rookie nor stupid, so this is not about his ignorance. I do not know Darden, but it seems unlikely that he is an out right crook trying to steal Rossi’s IP. It could be, but doubtful.
    .
    I for one am preparing myself for another big disappointment. That disappointment will be that the suit is settled out of court, Rossi puts in his usual NDA’s and we will not know anything more than now. Just like we do not know anything more than we did a 1 year ago versus two years ago, versus 3 years ago…….
    .
    It is unfortunate but the facts are the facts. Production was months away in 2012. We are in 2016 and an offer has supposedly been made on a building. 5 more years of waiting?

    • DFarwell

      Excellent assessment! The fact that Rossi was allowed in both buildings but IH is actually quite significant in my mind. I can’t come up with a valid reason for this other than one that would be suspect. The robotic factory is another point that many seem to gloss over. No one has seen any evidence of this robotic factory that is just waiting for completion of software. I just have a real hard time believing anything Rossi says when there are so many lies and half truths wrapped up in his web of secrecy.

    • SG

      Better to always be prepared for disappointment–so agree with you there.

      “Rossi has posted several times in the past few years that his
      “robotized” factory is a “magnificenze” and that the robots were only
      waiting for software and that he was able to produce vast quantities
      within months. Yet now we have some more “solid facts” that he does not
      even have a building and is looking to buy one. Again, this is not
      bad, it just points out that one cannot take every single thing Rossi
      says as being reality. ”

      Mr. Rossi’s “magnificent” declarations were with respect to the 1MW plant, at least as I remember, not the robotized factory. He has talked of establishing a relationship with the potential provider of the robots (ABB), and there is nothing to suggest so far that this isn’t true. How do you know that he does not even have a building? Are you saying that given that he is looking to buy a building in Sweden, that it is impossible that he has any other? Such logic doesn’t process.

  • LuFong

    From Mats Blog: “Rossi said he had no other funding than the 11.5M he already received from his licensee Industrial Heat, according to their license agreement, which is now subject to a lawsuit. He said that he estimated the costs for the lawsuit to amount to 1M.”

    This could be a huge problem for Rossi if the courts freeze this money (what’s left of it) while the civil suit is ongoing and/or if IH counter sues. I thought Rossi had other significant financing?

    • I guess it would be huge problem for anyone if the court freezes your money when you get sued or when you sue someone. Fortunately that is usually not what happens in civilized countries.

      • LuFong

        Well I don’t know for sure what happens (I’m not a lawyer) but it might a problem if Rossi tries to take the money out of the country. I suppose there are ways to do this as well–I need check the latest Panama Papers dump! You can be sure that IH’s lawyers would find a way to prevent Rossi from spending that money if IH wanted to do this and they could. Rossi no doubt has other funds from at the very least the Hydrofusion investors?

        • I guess the government could do that for tax purposes. Neither I know the US legal system, but at least in Sweden it would be surprising if one company could get to government to step in and freeze the assets of another company that sues them before anything criminal has been decided by a court.

          • US_Citizen71

            Name one.

          • LuFong

            It would require a specific action by the court but it can be done. Hey, a plumber can put a mechanics lean on your house and keep you from selling it. It’s not really difficult to imagine why this cannot be done.

          • psi2u2
          • US_Citizen71

            Your example is the reverse. Show a case where the defendant was granted a hold on the assets of the plaintiff before or during a trial. If it is such a common thing it should be easy for you.

          • Zeddicus23

            Two questions regarding the 1 MW heat/steam used for the production process are (1) What is evidence of a process and/or product that produced enough “product” in this space to justify the 1 MW of steam? and (2) How is 1 MW of heat vented/used so that it doesn’t become too hot? The second question can be addressed assuming an endothermic reaction. There are a number of industrial processes which are strongly endothermic. However, there is no evidence regarding the first question. One would think that there would be evidence of raw materials being supplied and products being shipped. Without such evidence it is very hard not to be skeptical.

          • LuFong

            As I said in my original posting: “This could be a huge problem for Rossi if the courts freeze this money (what’s left of it) while the civil suit is ongoing and/or if IH counter sues. ” It’s quite common for someone who is suing to immediately be countersued so quibbling on the words ‘defendant’ and ‘plaintiff’ doesn’t buy you anything. The point I was making is that it’s quite possible that Rossi’s $11.5M will not be available to him at some time in the future.

          • DFarwell

            US_Citizen there are countless lawsuits out there that have frozen assets on both sides in case like this. I don’t have the time or interest in doing the specific research, but you can even look it up as it pertains to law aside from actual cases if you are honestly interested. Lets curb the childish attacks there, they are not productive.

          • Just to drive home a point about “data” in Mats’ interview of Rossi, which of course is unverified at this time…

            If you work the numbers on the water flow rate and the temperature rise from 60 deg C to 100 deg C, without any consideration of the heat of vaporization required to turn the water into steam — just heating up that amount of flowing water by 40 deg C — you need power of a magnitude just under 70 kW assuming perfect heat transfer efficiency.

            Compare that against the earlier input power “data” of about 20 kW and you get a COP of 3.5.

            If all these numbers are verified in the coming weeks, understand that the sound and fury of wet steam or dry steam is arguing about where the COP lies between 3.5 and 50. Any steam at all means the COP goes way up. Even if there were no steam the numbers would clearly indicate over unity and industrial levels of excess heat.

            For reference the incoming water temperature would have to be about 88 deg C on average rather than the 60 deg C cited in order to indicate no excess heat. Or the flow rate would have to be less than a third of what was supposedly measured by the flow meter.

            Others mentioned this below but I thought it warranted a booster shot.

          • psi2u2

            Thank you for that instructive post.

            Can any “skeptics” disagree with this? What would Jed Rothwell or Thomas Clarke say to this?

          • Well the math is the math. They would disagree I imagine with the veracity and/or accuracy of the “data.” We can’t prove they’re real at this point so they’ve got us there.

            But they can’t disprove them either.

          • psi2u2

            Right. They are the only numbers in evidence in any way so far.

          • Ophelia Rump

            I am a little surprised at how low the production volume is going to be. 500K units a year is almost laughable. Apple sold 13 Million Iphones in a single weekend.

          • cashmemorz

            Fits with Rossi’s philosophy to help the small people first.

          • Ophelia Rump

            It breaks with his philosophy of flooding the market so no one will be able to compete.
            It also suggests that he does not have much if any financial backing.

          • Pekka Janhunen

            A situation may easily arise, temporarily, that demand exceeds production, particularly if he gets the license to sell home units. Then Rossi will face a dilemma whether or not to temporarily increase the price. If he does, only rich people can buy, which is against his philosophy. But if he doesn’t, the same thing happens except the money goes to black market middlemen instead of Leonardo Corp. So maybe temporarily increasing the price is not a bad idea after all.

            Also depends on what the “item” in “500K items per year” refers to. Does it refer to 1MW plant or 100W or 500W quark or something in-between.

          • NT

            What happens to all of us who signed up for the first home units five years ago…

          • Roland

            You are awaiting UL, or equivalent, certification for a home unit whose design goals have shifted considerably since this initiative was first floated; essentially nothing happens to you as no money has changed hands as no deposits were taken towards delivery.

            I hope you don’t wake each day in a state of life draining depression over this as it’s been clear for some time that the prospect of household E-cats face steep regulatory hurdles in all first world nations. It is entirely possible that down and out third worlders will be using household E-cats well before anyone else.

          • kdk

            It isn’t hard to pay off some legislators to spearhead something and spread around some chump change hush money.

          • NT

            Roland, I did not just fall off the turnip wagon – read Ophelia Rump statement and then my question and try to put it together…

          • Omega Z

            Except that third worlders can’t afford them. $500 a year don’t go far. Especially if you want to eat.

          • Engineer48

            Do believe Rossi will supply the domestic customers that have placed orders.

            Did order 3 x 10kWt reactors about 2 days after the ordering process was opened.

          • DrD

            He has said he will finance the production growth from sales so I assume he hasn’t enough capital and doesn’t want to borrow. Shame really.

          • Engineer48

            A thermal plant manufacturer like say GE would pay whatever to get exclusive rights to design in LENR boilers to every future thermal power plant and to get exclusive rights to upgrade every boiler their clients have to LENR boilers.

            Do you realise what there are? https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/5999a7070a06097febc55f661f835a04cc7295e731c6b787555f07ada42613b4.jpg

            The end of electric, coal, oil and gas fired boilers all over the planet.

            Not enough digits on my phone math app to calc the profit potential.

            GE or some like business will walk into the front doors of Rossi’s plant with an open and signed check. But after the IH embarkable, there will be no exclusive deals that can shut down production.
            .

          • Owen Geiger

            The correct term is probably ‘alternative therapies’ or ‘natural medicine’ or something similar that includes herbs and other treatments outside of pharmaceuticals.

          • Cuthbert Allgood

            Well, you know the old saying… “You know what they call alternative therapies and natural medicines that work? Medicine.”

            The ridiculous thing about conspiracies to suppress medical cures (like literally believing Big Pharma suppresses cures for cancer so that the treatments stay expensive), is that the people who run Big Pharma get sick, too. While I’m sure they enjoy money, they enjoy staying alive and healthy more than that. It’s not in their best interest to suppress therapies that work.

            Not to say there aren’t probably thing we can learn from the random things people try that happen to end up doing something, but 99.9% of “natural medicine” is garbage and a scam. And people complain about the prices of pharmaceuticals, but look at the prices in the Scam Section of your local Whole Foods. We’re talking $200 for a bottle of seaweed pills.

          • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

            That’s great – we never learn, do we.

          • cashmemorz

            For a first run of production of an “unproven” device it is prudent to keep production to a low number until it is determined how fast the market absorbs from the first run. Just in case few actually want it. The quantity in second run of production is then base on the uptake rate of the first. And so on with the later production runs until it a high degree of confidence that more can be produced without fear of rejection.

          • Omega Z

            You also want to take it slow initially until you build a track record of dependability.
            Last thing you want is a major recall for reliability issues.
            Not like cell phones that are mostly all known tech.

          • Axil Axil

            That production level will produce about 50 one megawatt plants

          • Rossi Fan

            100C = boiling point of water Lewan says metal sponges. When I saw water I guessed proof of concept desalination plant. ERV says it is irrelevant where water comes from or goes. I agree. The 36 cubic meters could have come from the irrigation pvc pipes and gone out the flush toilet in the corner. So what?

            Here’s my problem with this whole place. It did not look and feel like an industrial factory type of place. Modern, clean, office looking like.

          • Kjell Anders Lier

            Agree on the lack of factory feel of the place. If only someone could talk to the neighbors and hear what happened there the last year.

          • sam

            I would sooner talk to the
            security guards that worked
            there.

          • Ged

            See this post and picture by Guest http://www.e-catworld.com/2016/04/29/photos-of-1mw-plant-address/#comment-2651217012 , as well as this post by peacelovewoodstock http://www.e-catworld.com/2016/04/29/photos-of-1mw-plant-address/#comment-2651038364 . A lot more useful details. It all works out fine.

          • Ged

            That description sounds like Elon Musk’s factories for Tesla and SpaceX (where “Factory” and “Office” are merged into one contiguous being with little to no separation). Factories come in many, many forms beyond the stereotypical chemical plant or Ford assembly line, so it’s kinda pointless to think about looks beyond what is utilitarian (the space is definitely factory compatible). It’s all about that production that we need to learn about, and sadly still don’t know much of anything regarding.

          • Omega Z

            As modern manufacturing has become automated for modern technologies, they look less and less like factories and more like clean rooms.

            Facilities where computer chips are manufactured are comparable to an operating room. But there still factories.

          • Right LENR G. And this is why people with insight in the report told me that basically the only remaining possibility to claim COP~1 would be accusing the ERV for having written a fake report, in a fraud together with Rossi (as I wrote in my post today).

          • This dovetails with my observation from an earlier thread that we are down to two viable options. E-Cats are nuclear, or Rossi is a fraud.
            http://www.e-catworld.com/2016/05/13/congress-is-suddenly-interested-in-cold-fusion-popular-mechanics/#comment-2677146637

            Measurement error is a red herring and cannot explain what has transpired since 2011.

          • SG

            Agreed, but can we just leave the term nuclear out of it? The magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) folks were prescient for dropping nuclear from the name. I know, I know, the appropriate name for the underlying e-Cat phenomena has been thoroughly debated, but just sayin’–call it nuclear and it will go nowhere.

          • I specifically said nuclear because (if you read my link) the Lugano ash proved nuclear events but not necessarily excess heat, which is still a point of contention. That nuclear reactions are evidenced by the ash is actually *not* a point of contention. The only objection there is that some have asserted that Rossi may have swapped or contaminated the ash sample that was sent out for testing.

            Thus the conclusion: either Rossi is a fraud or E-Cats catalyze nuclear reactions.

            Five years of measurement errors is no longer a viable explanation for events transpiring since 2011 due to this one event. The reported COP and supporting data looks like it falls into the same category and allows a similar conclusion. Clearly indicates working, measurement error not a viable explanation as Mats said, and fraud remains a possibility, more remote in some eyes than others.

          • US_Citizen71

            No picture then it didn’t happen. ; )

          • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

            …which brings Assange to mind…

          • I know. I said surprising, not impossible … These are mostly gov. issues though. Pirate Bay is probably a better example where US media giants put pressure on Swedish politicians to state an example.

      • Observer

        Would not IH have to sue Rossi first? Based on who is suing who it would be more likely that the 89 million would be frozen.

    • Buck

      Don’t forget to include his large book of pending orders estimated at about $3B. I want to think this gives him flexibility. And Rossi has said that the customer of the 1-Year test wants to install more units at their other production facilities.

    • Omega Z

      Not a problem.
      The 11.5 million was paid in accordance of the agreement as the requirements for that payment were met. It’s clear and free, so had Rossi been scamming, he could have walked away at that point clear and free. It’s rightfully Rossi’s money.

      • LuFong

        The escrow exchange of Rossi’s IP with $10M was predicated on Rossi providing his IP followed by the fuel mixture. IH is claiming they could not substantiate Rossi’s IP so they can claim that Rossi failed to meet the requirements and that the $10M is owed to IH.

        Yes, there are complicating factors like IH submitting patents claiming high IP and IH parading the customers through the plant but that does not necessarily invalidate their claim that they could not substantiate Rossi’s IP and hence Rossi failed to meet contractual requirments. Sifferkoll® has even stated a number of times that Rossi may not have transferred his IP. So IH does seem to have a basis in my mind (not a lawyer) to counter sue.

        • Omega Z

          That $10M was a long while ago(Like 2013). I’m sure this issue would have come up long before the 1MW test concluded.

  • DFarwell

    Frank, I have seen no evidence of this buy back offer to cancel the contract you talk about at the end. Can you please provide reference to this so we don’t create yet another rumor. Hopefully it is not a “Rossi says”.

    • Frank Acland

      I was referencing a point in Mats’ article: “During summer 2015, IH offered Rossi to back out from the test and cancel it, with a significant sum of money as compensation. Rossi’s counter offer was to give back the already paid 11.5M and cancel the license agreement, but IH didn’t accept.”

      • DFarwell

        I figured so, but as you can already see, many are taking this as a fact rather than nothing more than something Rossi said. I think it is very valuable to talk about theories and debate what we know, but I think your closing commentary makes it sound more like fact that nothing more than hearsay, especially coming from you personally. You typically preface that type of stuff more fairly if it was just a “Rossi says”.

        • Winebuff67

          We should know a lot more on June 12

    • kdk

      IH who would be the only people who would know first-hand besides Rossi and maybe his lawyer if they went far enough to draft it. That doesn’t seem like information IH would volunteer.

      • DFarwell

        I just have no reason to believe this rumor at this point as it is currently residing in the “Rossi says” bin. If we get some sort of proof of this, I think it would be significant and probably harm IH, but until that point it is just rumor.

  • enantiomer2000

    I thought he was already building out his factory… something doesn’t add up here..

  • Gerard McEk

    I would assume that the partner/customer to whom AR will be demonstrating the QuarkX will take care of the production too, so the small risk of loosing all his money in the suit may not be that dramatic.

  • Zeddicus23

    The comments of Jed Rothwell regarding heat transfer appear to be relevant to the old 2013 and/or 2014 1 MW E-cats which were in shipping containers (whose area I estimate to be between 160 and 400 square feet) – especially if the thermal insulation was poor, e.g. 70% thermal transfer efficiency compared to a maximum efficiency of 99%. On the other hand, Mats’ report (if it is correct) gives some important information which is particularly relevant to the 1 MW test. In particular, Mats’ report states that the 1 MW plant occupied 400 square meters which is approximately 4444 square-foot. This area is obviously much, much larger than the size of a shipping container and so I would expect that heat transfer would not be a problem, even with somewhat reduced thermal transfer efficiency.

    • DFarwell

      I am curious as to how much of the 6000 sq ft of space in the building was office space that would not be figured into the 4444 sq ft plant space. We can see from photos posted previously peeking in the front door, that there absolutely IS office space as you would expect in this type of building configuration. Does anyone know if the amount of office space was ever posted on any of the rental webpages for that space?

      • Zeddicus23

        According to Mats’ report the space used by the customer was 600 square-meters or 6666 sq-ft, while the remaining 400 square-meters (or 4444 sq ft) was for the 1 MW plant, with a total of 1000 square-meters or 11,100 sq ft for the entire facility. On the other hand, the following exchange from Rossi’s blog has me seriously wondering about the veracity of any of his claims. In particular, why he is referring below to a “computer container”? Does he mean shipping container? And if all of the Ecats were generating 1 MW inside this small area (about 30 ft x 8.3 ft or 250 sq-ft or 22.5 sq-m) then I expect that without exceptional thermal transfer efficiency it would become very hot. Also, what was the rest of the 400 sq-m used for ? Living,sleeping,eating quarters?

        “Oystein Lande, May 15, 2016 at 3:17 AM
        Dear mr. Rossi, what size of HVAC system did you use to keep the working conditions cool inside the 1MW container? I assume a few percent of the 1MW was lost as heat inside the container, which you would need to remove.

        Andrea Rossi, May 15, 2016 at 10:15 PM

        Oystein Lande: Inside the computer container we had a 3 kW air conditioner. Keeping the doors closed we could work well ( the computer container is m. 9 x 2.5 x 2.5 ).
        Of course some heat was lost inside the factory, but the ceiling of the factory had many air exhausts and the warm air, being lighter, goes toward the ceiling and the factory has a good height.
        Warm Regards, A.R.”

        • DFarwell

          Zeddicus, actually it is 5,925 sq. ft. from the rental website info for that location. I would think the front half where the offices are would make up at least 1800-2000 sq. ft. as we know it has offices up front..the website lists 3 offices in that unit. I don’t see how it would all fit……

          http://warehousespaces.com/warehouse-for-rent/United-States/FL/Doral/2082

          • Kjell Anders Lier

            I must agree DFarwell. There are so many things that dont`t add upp concerning the location for the unknown customer. So strange that a company producing metal sponges(?) should set up a factory just for one year. It is clear that the facility is now abandoned and out on the market for rent. Just think about the calibration process for verifying the before/after the E-Cat heat generation + electric bill before and after. As you also point out, the space itself is not suitable for this kind of production.

            But the strangest thing: if Rossi is lying about this, why would he suggest this particulare place for his hoax (if it is, hope I`m wrong)? I would pick a location ( for my hoax) much more “fit” for this kind of production.

          • Zeddicus23

            Two questions regarding the 1 MW heat/steam used for the production process are (1) What is evidence of a process and/or product that produced enough “product” in this space to justify the 1 MW of steam? and (2) How is 1 MW of heat vented/used so that it doesn’t become too hot? The second question can be addressed assuming an endothermic reaction. There are a number of industrial processes which are strongly endothermic. However, there is no evidence regarding the first question. One would think that there would be evidence of raw materials being supplied and products being shipped. Without such evidence it is very hard not to be skeptical.

          • Ged

            See this post and picture by Guest http://www.e-catworld.com/2016/04/29/photos-of-1mw-plant-address/#comment-2651217012 , as well as this post by peacelovewoodstock http://www.e-catworld.com/2016/04/29/photos-of-1mw-plant-address/#comment-2651038364 . A lot more useful details. It all works out fine.

          • DFarwell

            If it all works out fine, then in my opinion we are back to questioning how all the heat was transferred out through what little ventilation is on the building. Those photos just bring up more questions for me, like why there is a logo on the door of the “sponge company” that obviously is not our secret customer. So many issues with the location that have to be explained with outlandish answers.

          • Omega Z

            1MW is nothing. You must live a sheltered life.

            There’s a manufacturer near me that produces 30MW/h or more in a 15,000 square feet facility and were talking temperatures of 800`C or higher. 24/7 365…

            Ther is ZERO roof vents and 2 bay doors similar to the Rossi customer location. There’s a dozen employees per shift that work in this facility year round. No one has been cooked to death after over 4 decades.

          • Ged

            Huh? A lot of those are easy answers. The customer is JM Chemicals so that is why the name is there, but that is a front for whomever the real people are (common enough business practice) who wish to stay anonomous do to how bad the rep backlash could be still.

            People who haved worked on similar energy systems point out heat is no issue for that space. I calculated it myself, it’s really no big deal as long as there is a fan around for air circulation. Remember, your car vents well over a hundred kW of energy out a little pipe and nearly another hundred kW with a little fan and condensing without affecting you ( https://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/32832).

        • Ged

          There are two shipping containers–one with the 1 MW plant, and the other with the computer control systems/”office” for Rossi and the workers; we have seen a number of pictures of both containers, and there are three doors large enough to move a container through as part of the unit’s space. There is a lot more information on the location’s dimensions and details in the thread about the pictures taken from outside by one of the community members.

          Edit: here is the thread if you need it http://www.e-catworld.com/2016/04/29/photos-of-1mw-plant-address/ . Also note that several people calculated and evaluated the heat that would be in the environment and it isn’t a big deal at all.

    • Alan Smith

      I’m pretty sure there were 2 containers, and there would need to be clear space space to move around outside them- and of course the mystery customer might possibly require clear fork-lift access through the loading door and into the other part of the factory. The space requirements add up.

    • Argon

      That 70%efficiency has nothing to do how much heat was leaking outside E-Cat. If you have heat source where you want to transfer heat to fluid passing through heat exchanger, the 70% efficiency affects only design(size) of needed heat exchanger. It has nothing to do with waste heat ‘leaking’ into container. Or is the wall behind Jeffs (or anyońe elses) fridge frozen all over? Hint heat exchanger inside fridge has not 100%efficiency either.

      I read his replies to Mr Gluck throughout weekend and was really feeling sad for him and even started to think has someone made him writing such comments. They really did not sound like real Jed I have used to read before.
      https://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-%5Bemail%[email protected]%5B/email%5D/msg109800.html

      • sam

        Jed sure got the discussion going on Peters blog.The most comments
        I have seen on the blog.

  • kdk

    IH who would be the only people who would know first-hand besides Rossi and maybe his lawyer if they went far enough to draft it. That doesn’t seem like information IH would volunteer.

    • DFarwell

      I just have no reason to believe this rumor at this point as it is currently residing in the “Rossi says” bin. If we get some sort of proof of this, I think it would be significant and probably harm IH, but until that point it is just rumor.

  • So is Rossi saying the company buying the heat wasn’t in an adjacent warehouse but in the same warehouse as the 1MW plant? Meaning, all this talk before about there being a hole in a common wall where the water went was wrong? iirc correctly Weaver spilled the common wall notion. He was mistaken then?

    • Omega Z

      Through a common wall. There was a photo a long while back.

    • Engineer48

      Weaver claimed the 1MW plant was located in an adjacent warehouse unit and fed the heat to the customer warehouse unit through a hole in the common wall.

      Would seem he may have provided false information. Just maybe more of his claims are also not valid?

  • Zeddicus23

    According to Mats’ report the space used by the customer was 600 square-meters or 6666 sq-ft, while the remaining 400 square-meters (or 4444 sq ft) was for the 1 MW plant, with a total of 1000 square-meters or 11,100 sq ft for the entire facility. On the other hand, the following exchange from Rossi’s blog has me seriously wondering about the veracity of any of his claims. In particular, why he is referring below to a “computer container”? Does he mean shipping container? And if all of the Ecats were generating 1 MW inside this small area (about 30 ft x 8.3 ft or 250 sq-ft or 22.5 sq-m) then I expect that without exceptional thermal transfer efficiency it would become very hot. Also, what was the rest of the 400 sq-m used for ? Living,sleeping,eating quarters?

    “Oystein Lande, May 15, 2016 at 3:17 AM
    Dear mr. Rossi, what size of HVAC system did you use to keep the working conditions cool inside the 1MW container? I assume a few percent of the 1MW was lost as heat inside the container, which you would need to remove.

    Andrea Rossi, May 15, 2016 at 10:15 PM

    Oystein Lande: Inside the computer container we had a 3 kW air conditioner. Keeping the doors closed we could work well ( the computer container is m. 9 x 2.5 x 2.5 ).
    Of course some heat was lost inside the factory, but the ceiling of the factory had many air exhausts and the warm air, being lighter, goes toward the ceiling and the factory has a good height.
    Warm Regards, A.R.”

    • Ged

      There are two shipping containers–one with the 1 MW plant, and the other with the computer control systems/”office” for Rossi and the workers; we have seen a number of pictures of both containers, and there are three doors large enough to move a container through as part of the unit’s space. There is a lot more information on the location’s dimensions and details in the thread about the pictures taken from outside by one of the community members.

      • Omega Z

        1MW is nothing. You must live a sheltered life.

        There’s a manufacturer near me that produces 30MW/h or more in a 15,000 square feet facility and were talking temperatures of 800`C or higher. 24/7 365…

        Ther is ZERO roof vents and 2 bay doors similar to the Rossi customer location. There’s a dozen employees per shift that work in this facility year round. No one has been cooked to death after over 4 decades.

  • Stephen Taylor

    The whole thing makes no sense and Dr. Rossi appears ill in the photo accompanying the article (presumably taken around the time of the interview?). What an amazing story. Is this another Mdm. Curie development of new physics? I wonder if history will record this or if it is insignificant. Significant maybe. I hope he is OK.

    • SG

      Agree with you about the appearance of Mr. Rossi. Concerned for him. Let’s hope it is nothing sinister.

    • Omega Z

      Rossi neglected his health durring the 1 year test.

      He is what you would call driven. I was of that nature when I was younger. I would push through the work day not eating until the work was done(12/16 hour days). I walked around with a pocket full of hard candies and would pop 1 in my mouth from time to time to stave off hunger pangs. That and a lot of caffeinated beverages. I would eat at the end of the day if I didn’t fall a sleep first.

  • Andre Blum

    To my mind, still, the most likely reason for IH not paying the $89M is the most mundane one: They cannot. They have not managed to collect the $89M from investors.
    Rossi is like a landlord collecting rent. The tenant, instead of saying he cannot pay, says he does not want to pay (yet) as the roof is leaking.

    • Stephen Taylor

      Best case scenario.

    • Zephir

      cheatedinvestor May 5, 2016 at 9:44 PM

      Dear Dr Andrea Rossi:

      Tom Darden together with Cherokee Investments Partners have filed for 2
      bankrupcies in February 2016. Their investors lost 23 million dollars.
      Obviously all money of the investors: the money just disappeared.

      postandcourier.com/article/20160208/PC05/160209426

      It appears that Mr Darden customary collects investments in companies
      that end up dissipating the money of the investors with the excuse that
      the business is not gone well. With you they just found the wrong man:
      against any expectation, the E-Cat works and you really want to make an
      industry to produce it: you have broken their rules.

      • Carl Wilson

        Darden et al were not after LENR IP but scamming IP? Rossi turned out to be a disappointment on that score?

      • Alain Samoun

        We know that was a deal in 2008 during the real estate crisis,you can’t extrapolate it to the current situation with Rossi…

        • Omega Z

          There are more current situations going into bankruptcy.

    • Alain Samoun

      Well, they also have the money from the Chineses…?

      • pg

        I think it’s Chineseses…

        • Alain Samoun

          Right Chinese, Chinoiseries – in French 😉

      • Andre Blum

        How much was that?

      • Omega Z

        The Chinese investors committed to a facility in an R&D park.
        We don’t know if or how much of that $200 million would have landed in Darden’s hands.
        I’m betting they didn’t have the necessary funds or are just trying to delay LENR to market.

        If Darden physically traveled to Europe to dissuade others from supporting Rossi rather then a few phone calls, I would suspect it is about delaying this technology.. Darden has affiliation with those who would prefer at least a few years delay if not more.

  • Just to drive home a point about the “data” in Mats’ interview of Rossi, which of course is unverified at this time…

    If you work the numbers on the water flow rate and the temperature rise from 60 deg C to 100 deg C, without any consideration of the heat of vaporization required to turn the water into steam — just heating up that amount of flowing water by 40 deg C — you need power of a magnitude just under 70 kW assuming perfect heat transfer efficiency.

    Compare that against the earlier input power “data” of about 20 kW and you get a COP of 3.5.

    If all these numbers are verified in the coming weeks, understand that the sound and fury of wet steam or dry steam is arguing about where the COP lies between 3.5 and 50. Any steam at all means the COP goes way up. Even if there were no steam the numbers would clearly indicate over unity and industrial levels of excess heat.

    For reference the incoming water temperature would have to be about 88 deg C on average rather than the 60 deg C cited in order to indicate no excess heat. Or the flow rate would have to be less than a third of what was supposedly measured by the flow meter.

    Others mentioned this below but I thought it warranted a booster shot.

    • psi2u2

      Thank you for that instructive post.

      Can any “skeptics” disagree with this? What would Jed Rothwell or Thomas Clarke say to this?

      • Well the math is the math. They would disagree I imagine with the veracity and/or accuracy of the “data.” We can’t prove they’re real at this point so they’ve got us there.

        But they can’t disprove them either.

        • psi2u2

          Right. They are the only numbers in evidence in any way so far.

    • Rossi Fan

      100C = boiling point of water Lewan says metal sponges. When I saw water I guessed proof of concept desalination plant. ERV says it is irrelevant where water comes from or goes. I agree. The 36 cubic meters could have come from the irrigation pvc pipes and gone out the flush toilet in the corner. So what?

      Here’s my problem with this whole place. It did not look and feel like an industrial factory type of place. Modern, clean, office looking like.

      • Kjell Anders Lier

        Agree on the lack of factory feel of the place. If only someone could talk to the neighbors and hear what happened there the last year.

        • sam

          I would sooner talk to the
          security guards that worked
          there.

      • Ged

        That description sounds like Elon Musk’s factories for Tesla and SpaceX (where “Factory” and “Office” are merged into one contiguous being with little to no separation). Factories come in many, many forms beyond the stereotypical chemical plant or Ford assembly line, so it’s kinda pointless to think about looks beyond what is utilitarian (the space is definitely factory compatible). It’s all about that production that we need to learn about, and sadly still don’t know much of anything regarding.

      • Omega Z

        As modern manufacturing has become automated for modern technologies, they look less and less like factories and more like clean rooms.

        Facilities where computer chips are manufactured are comparable to an operating room. But there still factories.

    • Right LENR G. And this is why people with insight in the report told me that basically the only remaining possibility to claim COP~1 would be accusing the ERV for having written a fake report, in a fraud together with Rossi (as I wrote in my post today).

      • This dovetails with my observation from an earlier thread that we are down to two viable options. E-Cats are nuclear, or Rossi is a fraud.
        http://www.e-catworld.com/2016/05/13/congress-is-suddenly-interested-in-cold-fusion-popular-mechanics/#comment-2677146637

        Measurement error is a red herring and cannot explain what has transpired since 2011.

        • SG

          Agreed, but can we just leave the term nuclear out of it? The magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) folks were prescient for dropping nuclear from the name. I know, I know, the appropriate name for the underlying e-Cat phenomena has been thoroughly debated, but just sayin’–call it nuclear and it will go nowhere.

          • I specifically said nuclear because (if you read my link) the Lugano ash proved nuclear events but not necessarily excess heat, which is still a point of contention. That nuclear reactions are evidenced by the ash is actually *not* a point of contention. The only objection there is that some have asserted that Rossi may have swapped or contaminated the ash sample that was sent out for testing.

            Thus the conclusion: either Rossi is a fraud or E-Cats catalyze nuclear reactions.

            Five years of measurement errors is no longer a viable explanation for events transpiring since 2011 due to this one event. The reported COP and supporting data looks like it falls into the same category and allows a similar conclusion. Clearly indicates working, measurement error not a viable explanation as Mats said, and fraud remains a possibility, more remote in some eyes than others.

          • LookMoo

            The reason for the delay of the Lugano report was to make it so boring that nobody actually read it, but I did. 99% of those claiming that the Lugano report is “bad” have not read it in full.

            The Lugano professors says that the test shows results that makes it necessary to investigated it further because they can not explain the excess heat (COP)..

            For some unknown reason unjustified claims on fraud and conspiracy mostly comes from US readers.

  • Bob

    A few posts from Rossi about factories:

    Some posts from Rossi about factories.
    Feb. 20th, 2013 :
    “Yes, the new factory of Leonardo Corporation in which the E-Cat X will be manufactured is in Florida”

    http://www.e-catworld.com/2016/02/20/rossi-exponential-progress-at-leonardo-factory-in-florida/

    Feb. 11th 2016 :
    “The E-Cat X is now developed in a new factory wherein Leonardo Corporation will dedicate its production.”

    http://www.e-catworld.com/2016/02/11/rossi-leonardo-corp-has-new-factory-dedicated-to-e-cat-x-production/

    March 21, 2012 :
    “We have a factory, but for safety and security reasons it is under another name and we will not disclose.”

    http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/03/21/rossi-e-cat-factory-under-another-name-for-security-reasons/

    Jan. 2013 :
    ” In our factories the work has never been so intense as it is in this period. Therefore the E-Cats, that soon will hit the market, will not fade, be sure”

    http://www.e-catworld.com/2013/01/30/rossi-work-in-e-cat-factories-never-been-so-intense/

    Jan. 2014:
    ““Entirely produced by our USA Partner in the new factory ( a magnificence)”

    http://www.e-catworld.com/2014/01/28/rossi-hands-off-in-e-cat-production-only-doing-rd/

    And here we have him in the “early” stages of “possibly” purchasing a building!
    My point is that one cannot take Rossi literally in many cases. Do not get too excites about this version of the factory.

    • Bob

      No comments?
      The information above is from the same source that all the facts about steam, temperature, flow rates, who built what, who did the ballerina dance, who paid who, 1.5 million, 10 million, offers to back out, Quark X to be at customers by April 2016 (where has that escaped to?) and on and on.
      .
      IH posts nothing, following what 99% of all professional companies would do when involved in a lawsuit and it is taken as admission of guilt, sign of stupidity and basic unbelievable action. Yet we have over the years, a continuous pattern of statements that contradict, do not come true, greatly exaggerated and of questionable content. Yet, certain posts are picked and presented as “must be true” or fact by default, while completely ignoring the past!
      .
      How does one ignore so much while exalting the other?
      .
      Here is what is really known.. 5 years ago there was a demo with some steam tricking out of a rubber hose. Today we know there is a lawsuit. Other than that, we know nothing more. Every six months, production is in six months. Every six months, a new model/design replaces the exiting one. Every six months some certification will be made, yet never is of commercial relevance. A new secret customer replaces another secret customer. After 5 years we have not seen ANY hard fact, hard evidence, hard proof that is incontrovertible. We are no closer to seeing something actually for sale, that one can go purchase than we were 5 years ago. I had this same post in December and everyone was stating “in April” mass production will be started. Not.
      .
      Andrea Rossi 2013 : “Therefore the E-Cats, that soon will hit the market, will not fade, be sure” I am not so sure anymore.
      .
      How can I put faith in his statements about being offered big cash when so many previous statements turn out the same. No positive, only Negative. (F8 or is it F9?)

      • timycelyn

        Bob, give it a rest, there’s a good chap. To be honest no-one can be bothered going over old ground with skeps.

        Be happy in the feeling you’ve got it right and enjoy smugly watching you future view unfold.

        We really don’t need to hear about it.

    • Robert Dorr

      This is pure marketing hype that has nothing to do with the veracity of what he has said about the 1MW plant. He has had other people/companies that have been attempting to break into the LENR power production market and I’m sure he was trying to convince them to stay out of the market and that he was/is further ahead than he actually was. I think the ploy has probably worked.

    • Steve Swatman

      The thing is Bob, when you hear the word factory, you think of a large building housing tons of equipment and assembly with workers sweating and straining to produce millions of products (or so it appears)

      When Rossi speaks of a factory (to me) I see a small room with 3-4 guys in Florida, those guys are creating a manufacturing process, designing the future, setting robotic feasibility, designing a manufacturing plant, working with the ecat and QX to allow Rossi to produce a large enough flow of products to hit the market,

      So one might assume that Rossi’s “factory” has done all of that work with ABB, and the US facility has been dropped in favour of the Swedish facility now that IH have played the game and lost.

      Its about one interprets Rossi’s words, “factory” could be his cellar, but work is been done, the nxt step is scaled up manufacturing, 500,000 units a year, then an exponential explosion of robotic manufacturing.

    • Manuel Cruz

      The factory in Florida is obviously IH’s, with which they manufactured the plant used in the Lugano test.
      Does not have to be a robotic factory, and with the constant design changes during the year long test, it would have been a total waste of money.

  • Frank Acland

    Just as a point of reference, here is the text from the Leonardo/IH contract regarding how the testing should be validated by the ERV

    4. Validation of the Plant

    “Validation” will be deemed successful and achieved when the expert responsible for such validation (ERV) certifies in writing that during an 24 hour test period the Plant consistently produces energy that is at least six times greater than the energy consumed by the Plant (the “Energy Multiple”) and the temperature of the steam produced by the plant is consistently 100 degrees Celsius or greater. To make this measurement the ERV will measure the flow of the heated fluid and the Delta T between the temperature of the fluid before and after the E-Cat reaction . . .

    4. Guaranteed Performance

    Payment of the amount set forth in Section 3(c) above is contingent upon the Plant operating at the same level (or better) at which Validation was achieved for a period of 350 days (even if not consecutive) out of a 400 day period . . .

    http://www.sifferkoll.se/sifferkoll/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Rossi_et_al_v_Darden_et_al__flsdce-16-21199__0001.2.pdf

    • Alain Samoun

      “(deemed successful if) during an 24 hour test period the Plant consistently produces energy that is at least six times greater than the energy consumed by the Plant”
      So this validation – Or better COP – was achieved 350 times during the 400 days test.

      • Frank Acland

        The 24 hours refers to the first test on the 1MW plant on Italy in May 2013, after which IH paid $10 to AR

        • Rossi Fan

          After which Rossi claims IH paid $10M. Don’t forget the old IH announcement not to believe any information or news brief that does not originate from IH. Rossi’s $10 smackeros would fall under that category.

          • Ged

            So what, he had a bake sale to raise enough money for salaries and materials/rent/bills for building the IH 1MW reactor along with all the other items he’s built?

          • US_Citizen71

            IH built the reactor or at least paid for the labor that did . The plant that was tested was made after the initial signing so it comes down to when did IH start paying people. The test plant was the HotCat six pack from the addendum. Things were rosy at the time. I believe the leaked photos of the HotCat were taken during the R&D of the plant, those might be worth studying again.. I believe that what we saw were either the cores or prototypes of the cores used in the test. Rossi has said that IH built the plant. If true Rossi was mostly out his time.

            Maybe???

          • Ged

            Well, my base assumption was that Rossi would probably consider whatever IH spent to make the 1MW plant as payment too. Doesn’t have to necessarily be a direct bank transfer to count ;), could be part of the package deal perhaps.

          • Rossi Fan

            I’m sorry. I missed the part where IH announces that they built a reactor.

            I think the bombshell here today is that Lewan claims that Rossi claims he was offered lots of money to get lost. If someone gives me a big wad of cash to beat it, I take the money and run. That and the admission that Rossi gave the store away to the Chinese and that he is afraid or unwilling to do a public demo make me wonder about his business skills. If LENR is real he has a fleeting opportunity to prove to the world that the invention is his. He prefers to risk it all to play legal monkey with a company that has built its entire business around dirty deeds done dirt cheap.

          • Omega Z

            ->”Rossi gave the store away to the Chinese”

            From where did you pull that out from?

            ->”Rossi claims he was offered lots of money to get lost.”

            And Rossi countered that he would give back the $11.5 million to date and IH return the IP rights.

            To which IH declined. Apparently the IP is of value…
            Otherwise, IH would get their $11.5 million back and could go their own way.

          • Rossi Fan

            So Rossi is suing IH. That’s the only thing that Rossi claims and IH does not deny. Everything else is unsubstantiated.

          • Ged

            And everything in the contract (the suit is in the court, so IH trying to deny that would not matter as the court not IH is in control). And rationality–money to do things doesn’t appear from no where. Unless you know a way to do that, in which case please tell me your secret.

          • psi2u2

            11.5

  • Frank Acland

    Just as a point of reference, here is the text from the Leonardo/IH contract regarding how the testing should be validated by the ERV

    4. Validation of the Plant

    “Validation” will be deemed successful and achieved when the expert responsible for such validation (ERV) certifies in writing that during an 24 hour test period the Plant consistently produces energy that is at least six times greater than the energy consumed by the Plant (the “Energy Multiple”) and the temperature of the steam produced by the plant is consistently 100 degrees Celsius or greater. To make this measurement the ERV will measure the flow of the heated fluid and the Delta T between the temperature of the fluid before and after the E-Cat reaction . . .

    4. Guaranteed Performance

    Payment of the amount set forth in Section 3(c) above is contingent upon the Plant operating at the same level (or better) at which Validation was achieved for a period of 350 days (even if not consecutive) out of a 400 day period . . .

    http://www.sifferkoll.se/sifferkoll/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Rossi_et_al_v_Darden_et_al__flsdce-16-21199__0001.2.pdf

    • Jerry Soloman

      . Shame that Rossi had to go to Sweden and all he found here was a pack of thieves like Industrial Heat.

      Darden will not get out of this for 89 million, its going to be much much more.

      • Satyavan

        Don’t forget the brothers Wrights, Tesla and as I understand JP Morgan was behind the discrediting of Homoeopathic in favour of his pharmacy industry. Quite a reputation the US have. Rossi has learned the hard lesson and don’t want to end as Tesla poor and dying lonely.

        • Cuthbert Allgood

          I don’t know if you know what homeopathic medicine is, but it’s literally plain water with no active (or inactive) ingredients that’s had magic cast on it (seriously). You don’t need JP Morgan to discredit water with magic spells as medicine.

          • Steve Swatman

            That was not the point been made… it was simply an example of how the rich can manipulate the US laws, governments, markets to favour them and their products.

          • Owen Geiger

            The correct term is probably ‘alternative therapies’ or ‘natural medicine’ or something similar that includes herbs and other treatments outside of pharmaceuticals.

          • Cuthbert Allgood

            Well, you know the old saying… “You know what they call alternative therapies and natural medicines that work? Medicine.”

            The ridiculous thing about conspiracies to suppress medical cures (like literally believing Big Pharma suppresses cures for cancer so that the treatments stay expensive), is that the people who run Big Pharma get sick, too. While I’m sure they enjoy money, they enjoy staying alive and healthy more than that. It’s not in their best interest to suppress therapies that work.

            Not to say there aren’t probably thing we can learn from the random things people try that happen to end up doing something, but 99.9% of “natural medicine” is garbage and a scam. And people complain about the prices of pharmaceuticals, but look at the prices in the Scam Section of your local Whole Foods. We’re talking $200 for a bottle of seaweed pills.

    • Alain Samoun

      “(deemed successful if) during an 24 hour test period the Plant consistently produces energy that is at least six times greater than the energy consumed by the Plant”
      So this validation – Or better COP – was achieved 350 times during the 400 days test.

      • Frank Acland

        The 24 hours refers to the first test on the 1MW plant on Italy in May 2013, after which IH paid $10 to AR

        • Rossi Fan

          After which Rossi claims IH paid $10M. Don’t forget the old IH announcement not to believe any information or news brief that does not originate from IH. Rossi’s $10 smackeros would fall under that category.

          • Ged

            So what, he had a bake sale to raise enough money for salaries and materials/rent/bills for building the IH 1MW reactor along with all the other items he’s built?

          • DFarwell

            That would be quite the bake sale windfall to raise enough money for the expenses of building a 1MW reactor!! A bit far fetched there for my taste…..no pun intended…..

          • US_Citizen71

            IH built the reactor or at least paid for the labor that did . The plant that was tested was made after the initial signing so it comes down to when did IH start paying people. The test plant was the HotCat six pack from the addendum. Things were rosy at the time. I believe the leaked photos of the HotCat were taken during the R&D of the plant, those might be worth studying again.. I believe that what we saw were either the cores or prototypes of the cores used in the test. Rossi has said that IH built the plant. If true Rossi was mostly out his time.

            Maybe???

          • Ged

            Well, my base assumption was that Rossi would probably consider whatever IH spent to make the 1MW plant as payment too. Doesn’t have to necessarily be a direct bank transfer to count ;), could be part of the package deal perhaps.

          • Rossi Fan

            I’m sorry. I missed the part where IH announces that they built a reactor.

            I think the bombshell here today is that Lewan claims that Rossi claims he was offered lots of money to get lost. If someone gives me a big wad of cash to beat it, I take the money and run. That and the admission that Rossi gave the store away to the Chinese and that he is afraid or unwilling to do a public demo make me wonder about his business skills. If LENR is real he has a fleeting opportunity to prove to the world that the invention is his. He prefers to risk it all to play legal monkey with a company that has built its entire business around dirty deeds done dirt cheap.

          • Omega Z

            ->”Rossi gave the store away to the Chinese”

            From where did you pull that out from?

            ->”Rossi claims he was offered lots of money to get lost.”

            And Rossi countered that he would give back the $11.5 million to date and IH return the IP rights.

            To which IH declined. Apparently the IP is of value…
            Otherwise, IH would get their $11.5 million back and could go their own way.

          • Rossi Fan

            So Rossi is suing IH. That’s the only thing that Rossi claims and IH does not deny. Everything else is unsubstantiated.

          • Ged

            And everything in the contract (the suit is in the court, so IH trying to deny that would not matter as the court not IH is in control). And rationality–money to do things doesn’t appear from no where. Unless you know a way to do that, in which case please tell me your secret.

          • psi2u2

            11.5

  • sam

    Jed sure got the discussion going on Peters blog.The most comments
    I have seen on the blog.

  • Winebuff67

    Somewhere lies the truth but my faith in Rossi telling it is fading a little. June 12….

  • Winebuff67

    Somewhere lies the truth but my faith in Rossi telling it is fading a little. June 12….

  • GiveADogABone

    Frank quotes from the contract :-
    ‘… the temperature of the STEAM [1:] produced by the plant is consistently 100 degrees Celsius or greater. To make this measurement the ERV will measure the flow of the heated FLUID [2:] and the Delta T between the temperature of the FLUID before[3:] and after[4:] the E-Cat reaction . . .’
    My capitals and [references].

    I have a problem with the above statement from the contract.
    [1:] refers to steam.
    [2:] measures the heated fluid, so is [2:] fluid the same as [1:] steam?
    If the fluid in [2:] is steam, then is that the same fluid as [4:] which is then steam
    [3:]and [4:] would not be the same fluid if one was steam and the other was water. The value of ( [3:]-[4:] ) then tells you nothing about the enthalpy difference between the measuring points.

    To a boiler engineer, used to dealing with enthalpies, these statements are meaningless because you do not know the dryness fraction of the steam. The contractual statement also measures the flow of steam and not water? Is that right?

    This contractual statement appears to be engineering gibberish.

    • Zeddicus23

      You have a point. But if the pressure and temperature are known then the dryness fraction of the steam can be easily determined. This, along with the input temperature and mass flow rate should be enough to determine the power produced.

      • Zeddicus23

        I might add that, since mass is conserved, measuring the input flow rate should be enough to determine the total mass flow rate, assuming that no water is vented from the reactor.

      • Zeddicus23

        I have to take back what I said. If pressure and temperature are known, then if dryness fraction is known then enthalpy is known, and so the heat consumed can be calculated. However, a key question (as in other Rossi tests) was the dryness fraction. I’m not sure how that is determined experimentally, but it definitely needs to be known before one can accurately estimate the heat produced.

        • GiveADogABone

          Apologies to Zeddicus23. I did not read this post before posting above. It was still worth posting the h,s chart and data it contains.

      • Zeddicus23

        While there are standard methods such as “throttling”, here is a link to a patent for a light-transmission based device to measure steam dryness: http://www.google.com/patents/US20120147375

      • GiveADogABone

        ‘But if the pressure and temperature are known then the dryness fraction of the steam can be easily determined.’
        I have to disagree with Zeddicus23’s statement.

        Inside a closed boiler vessel where water is boiling due to applied heat:-
        1: Pressure is 1bar absolute.
        2: Boiling temperature is therefore 100C. Change the pressure and you change the boiling temperature, all the way up to the triple point of water/steam.

        What is the enthalpy of the water/steam that leaves the boiler?
        1: It could be the enthalpy of water at 100C, or
        2: it could be the enthalpy of saturated (as opposed to superheated) steam at 100C, or
        3: or it could be anywhere in between, depending on the dryness fraction, or
        4: it could be the enthalpy of superheated steam at a temperature greater than 100C at 1bar pressure which implies no moisture content and a boiler design capable of superheating.

        The h,s diagram at this reference shows all these data :-
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enthalpy%E2%80%93entropy_chart
        The Mollier Enthalpy-Entropy Diagram for water and steam. The “dryness fraction”, x, gives the fraction by mass of gaseous water in the wet region, the remainder being droplets of liquid.

    • Andrew

      It was closed loop system. As steam is created so does the pressure in the closed loop system, as the pressure increases so does the boiling point of water. I’m sure that at some point a sweet spot is hit and the temp of water flow being measured (after the Ecat) would be above 100 C. As long as all flow measurement were taken on the input everything would be fine as the output measurements would be liquid and steam and skew the final results.

      • Andrew

        But I’m sure you already knew that.

      • GiveADogABone

        ‘all flow measurement were taken on the input’
        but that is not what the contract says, so where does that leave the court case which seems to depend heavily on the ERV test results?

        • Andrew

          Well the first part is a nobrainer. Im sure that any steam will be over 100C unless in a vacuum?

    • Engineer48

      As far as I know, the 1MW plant 1 year monitoring contract details with the ERV have never been made public. All that is known publicly are the details of the 1st 24 hour test.

    • The phraseology would make sense if ‘the E-Cat reaction’ is taken to mean the whole containerised system feeding the heat exchanger. I.e., the dT is the measurement made at the output and return connections at the heat exchanger to/from the attached equipment – whether this turns out to be a genuine endothermic production process or simply a further fan cooled heat exchanger dumping energy via a roof vent.

      ‘Fluid’ would therefore refer to coolant on the ‘customer’ side of the heat exchanger, and using this as the basis of measurement would obviate any complications due to phase changes. Rossi has been burned before by using steam measurements and I’m pretty sure he wouldn’t repeat the mistake. Ignoring thermal losses and deliberate rejection at the HE of any excess heat generated would also provide additional credibility to the logged data.

      This information could then be simply correlated over whatever sampling periods were used, with metered electrical input to the E-Cat containers for the corresponding periods, leaving virtually no ‘wriggle room’ for the skeptics and shills.

      • Engineer48

        Weaver made the output 100.1C statement which without knowing where of many points that number could be, if real, is yet to be determined.

        We know Weaver stated there were 2 warehouse units used, yet Rossi says only one and have given the floor space used, which fits into one warehouse unit. So it would seem what Weaver says may have reduced credibility or he only tells part of the story that benefits his spin.

        So please Mr. Weaver, where was the 100.1C measurement made?

        1) At the output of the 4 x 250kWt ECat LENR generators?

        2) At the input of the ECat side of the heat exchanger?

        3) At the output of the ECat side of the heat exchanger?

        4) At the input of the customer side of the heat exchanger?

        5) At the output of the customer side of the heat exchanger?

        Eager minds await your answer.

        • 100.1C is a ridiculously precise value for a parameter that must in fact be a variable. The temperature of steam output from the e-cats would in any case be unimportant if dT was measured at the ‘customer’ side of the heat exchanger.

          It seems to me that Weaver is just muddying the water by attempting to get people to focus on irrelevancies and disinformation.

          • DrD

            I agree. I think he has just used the >100C statement in the contract and added 0.1 to make it sound like an actual measured parameter.

          • Engineer48

            Yup. Just more Weaver hand waving like the BS about 2 warehouses.

    • DrD

      I think they use “fluid” to describe both the water and steam.
      The above quote from the contract does seem to be in conflict with Mat’s
      https://animpossibleinvention.com/2016/05/16/rossi-makes-offer-on-swedish-factory-building-plus-more-updates/
      where it says:
      “Rossi insisted that the energy corresponding to heating the inflowing
      cooled water (at about 60˚C) to boiling temperature would not be taken
      into account for calculating the thermal power produced by the MW plant.”
      AND
      “He also insisted that an arbitrary chosen 10 percent should be
      subtracted in the power calculation”
      I think the explanation is that the ERV complied with the above and measured say 60C for the 25 liters/min of recirculated water (fluid before) but assumed 100C for the COP calculation.
      As for the “fluid” temperature after (in this case “steam”): They may also have measured it and recorded say 100.1C. that is anything >100 simply to satisfy the contract requirement >100C.
      Then, once again, they possibly ignore any extra temperature (and pressure) increase.
      Therefore they have a very simple and very conservative value for the heat added to the “fluid” which is in fact only the latent heat.
      So the COP is very conservative but the calculation (and measurements) is very simple.

      • GiveADogABone

        ‘Therefore they have a very simple and very conservative value for the heat added to the “fluid” which is in fact only the latent heat.’

        What is the dryness fraction of the steam? If it is zero, then no latent heat has been added and no contractual energy transfer has occurred. If the dryness fraction is 100%, then 2256.9kJ/kg has been transferred. Without the dryness fraction, nothing useful can be said.

        http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/water-thermal-properties-d_162.html
        The enthalpy of water at 60C is 215.5 kJ/kg
        The enthalpy of water at 100C is 419.1kJ/kg
        Difference 60/100C =419.1-215.5=203.6kJ/kg

        http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/steam-vapor-enthalpy-d_160.html
        The enthalpy of steam at 100C is 2676kJ/kg
        Latent heat of evaporation= 2676-419.1=2256.9kJ/kg

        Depending on the dryness fraction of the steam, the enthalpy addition due to evaporation can vary between zero and 2256.9kJ/kg

        The energy required to raise the water temperature from 60C to 100C is about 10% (cf 203.6 & 2256.9) of that required to full evaporate it.

        • Engineer48

          What it says is the Weaver claim about 100.1C output is simply not correct. Engineering and Physics 101 says so.

          Just like his 2 adjacent warehouse units statement is now shown to simply not be correct.

          Weaver talks shite.

  • Well according to Rossi there will be some kind of live demo in the not to far future. That little thingy could possible increase his cashflow. Lets say that the first 100,000 units is pre-ordered, well then money might not be much of a problem. According to himself, money does not seem to be much of a problem.
    He could as well of course I suppose produce electricity, light or heat and sell that. The possibilities are endless if the stuff actually works.

  • adriano

    Usually what Rossi says is a quarter of the truth, and what Rossi doesnt says is usually never true (speculations that regulary comes after his “yes” or “no”). Assuming this as correct (and nobody says it is but me) I let you scroll down his blog and compare what reality turned out to be about factorys, employes, robotized production lines, etc, and the words he used to describe such reality. Best case scenario he is one of the most optimistic person on earth.

    • pg

      You have to be an optimist person to try to achieve what he is, as the hurdles in the way are immense, and would be easy to get discouraged and give up.

    • Engineer48

      Have been dealing with Rossi for many years. Yes he is optimistic but he never lied to me & never asked for non escrowed money up front. All payments were based on proof of performance.

    • Engineer48

      I really need to make another statement here as with respect unless you have personally dealt with Rossi, as I have, you have no basis for that you state and this comment is just your opinion, based on nothing.

      • adriano

        When I post on this site I usually post critics to Rossi. That is because I dont belive him. I think dont belive him is the right approach to his claims. I also think belive in his claims is an act of faith more then everything else.

        What I wrote is not an opinion and it surprise me that you consider it so. You should be aware of how many times Rossi claimed that the production of a LENR based device was near or even already going.

        Do you ever thought that every other person or company on earth with his same behaviour would already be considered a liar?

        But not him. Why? Some people will always belive him and will always be on his side regardless of anything. I consider such enviroment very bad for LENR field.

        You should also be aware that people spend months speculating on singles Rossi’s yes or no. It happened multiple times during years. Last time it happened was during the 1 year test period. If you go back you will see that people were expecting, based on Rossi claims, the ERV to be an indipendent and globally recognized company, or even NASA. What they had insthead was a random italian guy with a random employment in nuclear field.

        So I do not accept that what I wrote is an opinion based on nothing. Not because I dont like to make mistake. But because if you dont want to see evidences, if you dont want to see facts, there is really no reason to discuss on something where facts have no importance. Wich is the opposite of a normal scientific approach.

        • Engineer48

          My reference is that over quite some time period, I have worked with Rossi, for a potential client, to align the capability of what the 1MW ECat 1MWt plant can produce and what my potential clients require.

          He has never lied to me, never tried to deceive me nor asked for non escrowed up front money. ALL money paid was subjected to the plant he would deliver meeting agreed test conditions.

          BTW my potential client owns and operates a very large number of thermal power plants and so understand steam probably better than Rossi. Acceptance compliance testing would be done to a team of very highly qualified, skilled, experienced & skeptical engineers.

          It was in fact Rossi that showed me and my potential clients the current ECat 105C steam can’t deliver what they require, 600C steam to drive subcritical steam turbines. Current ECat, NO. QuarkX YES.

          So for a time our corro dropped off.

          Then my potential clients came back and asked me to investigate their purchase of 10 x 1MWt plants as they would like to investigate the reliability and the ability of the plant to adjust output as thermal load alters, especially in SSM mode.

          Now however their 1st target plant has been shut down and will be cut up and sold off.

          So the discussion continues but at a lower level until the litigation in the US is done & dusted.

          I will say again that at no time did anything Rossi said, imply he had anything but the highest regard to the process and having clients that are very satisfied at taking the risk on new technology.

          This is a very different process than following anti and pro comments based on “what I think or believe” on the blogs & forums.

          I can also tell you Rossi has no doubt he will get any money out of any potential client before his delivered product has met the client’s tough test requirements.

  • wonderboy

    Weird question, but does Rossi want to continue the working relationship with IH? Let’s say they settle out of court, does Rossi want them as a Partner?

    • Roland

      No.

      • sam

        What happens if IH has to pay the 89 million
        the contract between AR and TD still valid.

        • Chapman

          Then IH can still fulfill the wishes of its cohorts and simply sit on the license and opt not to market or develop. All future payments to Rossi are a royalty percentage of sales up to max 1 Billion. No sales, no payment. They could sit on it and block the market till the Patent runs out. Darden’s people win either way, but Rossi will have 90mil more to fully exploit the European market.

          GE wins, U.S. losses.

          • Engineer48

            Suggest GE would love to be a sublicense of IH as they they would then have exclusive right to design in LENR thermal power plant boilers instead of using coal, oil or gas to all their thermal power plants.

            Plus GE can then sell LENR boiler upgrades to all its existing user base. Oh wait only to existing or new clients in the territories assigned to its licensor IH.

        • My impression is that Rossi doesn’t want Ih any longer, even if they pay. And that he considers the agreement broken since they didn’t pay $89M within the stipulated time, thus too late to try to save it even if they tried.

          • Engineer48

            The IH license is dead. Rossi will make sure that happens.

            You need to live with Italians / southern Europeans and understand how they react when they think they have been screwed.

          • 😀

          • Engineer48

            Glad we are on the same page Mats.

            My wife is southern European. Family and friend are all that matters. However one should never underestimate how they will react when taken advantage of. Really big fireworks!!!!!!

            Yanks will never understand southern European culture.

      • IH have no production facilities other than whoever they hired to build the prototypes, and no research facilities other than those of a few of AR’s competitors. They also appear to have proved themselves deceitful and untrustworthy, so ‘No’ is probably rather understating Rossi’s willingness to work with them again.

        • Engineer48

          I believe the IH intention was to “Flip” the IP to a big thermal power plant manufacturer like GE, enjoy a large “Flip” profit and then ride a commission of sales % gravy train for as long as it lasts.

          The contract appears to have been written to support this occurring with it very generous sublicense capability and a non compete requirement on Rossi.

          Explains why IH had no desire (according to Weaver) to spend capital to support the construction of dual prime and backup reactors and the payment of the $89m. Gave IH no advantage and cost then maybe $91m ($89m to Rossi and $2m to build and operate the 2 plants over 1 year).

          However as Rossi was apparently intent on manufacturing and sales, having a 1 year 1MW successful plant (paid for by IH) would fit his requirement very nicely.

          • Yes, that sounds about right.

      • Engineer48

        I agree.

    • NT

      Depends upon what the phrase “settle out of court” dictates (if that comes to pass) in this particular drama…

    • Engineer48

      Real question is does Rossi want to be bound by the conditions imposed on him by the license / contract?

      Paying back IH the $11.5m would seem to be a small price to pay to recover all the IH territory & stop them engaging in LENR business directly or via sub licensees.

    • Steve Savage

      Given IH’s behavior so far, would you want them as a partner ?

  • Zeddicus23

    You have a point. But if the pressure and temperature are known then the dryness fraction of the steam can be easily determined. This, along with the input temperature and mass flow rate should be enough to determine the power produced.

    • Zeddicus23

      I might add that, since mass is conserved, measuring the input flow rate should be enough to determine the total mass flow rate, assuming that no water is vented from the reactor.

      • LuFong

        And both forward and backward rates can be measured. Or if only forward, then backflow preventers installed properly…..

        • Engineer48

          As I understand it from some time ago, the pumps installed on the 1MW ECat reactor exhibit no significant back pressure. But to be sure I would install a anti backflow valve.

    • Zeddicus23

      I have to take back what I said. If pressure and temperature are known, then if dryness fraction is known then enthalpy is known, and so the heat consumed can be calculated. However, a key question (as in other Rossi tests) was the dryness fraction. I’m not sure how that is determined experimentally, but it definitely needs to be known before one can accurately estimate the heat produced.

    • Zeddicus23

      While there are standard methods such as “throttling”, here is a link to a patent for a light-transmission based device to measure steam dryness: http://www.google.com/patents/US20120147375

  • LuFong

    Yes, the contract appears to be poorly written, especially surprising since $100M is on the line.

    As a boiler engineer, can you given some general statements about measuring flow for steam and water? Can flow meters properly measure these things especially considering the dryness of the steam? The entire ERV report I believe will hinge on how this was measured, IMO.

    As others have pointed out, even if no steam was created the system appears to meet the COP requirements, assuming correct measurements, just not 50.

  • Ophelia Rump

    I am a little surprised at how low the production volume is going to be. 500K units a year is almost laughable. Apple sold 13 Million Iphones in a single weekend.

    • cashmemorz

      Fits with Rossi’s philosophy to help the small people first.

      • Ophelia Rump

        It breaks with his philosophy of flooding the market so no one will be able to compete.
        It also suggests that he does not have much if any financial backing.

        I do like the idea that he is targeting the home market. I suppose he will have no shortage of financial backing once the truckload of quarks hits the market.

        • Robert Dorr

          As far as I know, these aren’t for the home market. The Quark X is going to be sold in multiple units that will make up substantially larger modules for commercial use.

        • Pekka Janhunen

          A situation may easily arise, temporarily, that demand exceeds production, particularly if he gets the license to sell home units. Then Rossi will face a dilemma whether or not to temporarily increase the price. If he does, only rich people can buy, which is against his philosophy. But if he doesn’t, the same thing happens except the money goes to black market middlemen instead of Leonardo Corp. So maybe temporarily increasing the price is not a bad idea after all.

          Also depends on what the “item” in “500K items per year” refers to. Does it refer to 1MW plant or 100W or 500W quark or something in-between.

      • NT

        What happens to all of us who signed up for the first home units five years ago…

        • Roland

          You are awaiting UL, or equivalent, certification for a home unit whose design goals have shifted considerably since this initiative was first floated; essentially nothing happens to you as no money has changed hands as no deposits were taken towards delivery.

          I hope you don’t wake each day in a state of life draining depression over this as it’s been clear for some time that the prospect of household E-cats face steep regulatory hurdles in all first world nations. It is entirely possible that down and out third worlders will be using household E-cats well before anyone else.

          • kdk

            It isn’t hard to pay off some legislators to spearhead something and spread around some chump change hush money.

          • NT

            Roland, I did not just fall off the turnip wagon – read Ophelia Rump statement above mine, and then my question, and try to put it together…

          • Omega Z

            Except that third worlders can’t afford them. $500 a year don’t go far. Especially if you want to eat.

      • Philippe Goulet

        I think it’ll do just the opposite. Scarcity will raise the price of such a device. Big coy will be willing to buy units at much higher prices.

      • Engineer48

        Do believe Rossi will supply the domestic customers that have placed orders.

        Did order 3 x 10kWt reactors about 2 days after the ordering process was opened.

    • Robert Dorr

      How may “Apple I’s” did they sell? By the way, the first 500,000 that he puts on the market will be 500,000 more than his closest competitor.

    • Steve Swatman

      One might think that if Rossi opens a factory with one robot line, his first customer might be ABB, who after testing the QX in their machines/robots have agreed to move into larger production lines once the product is proven on Rossi’s line and Rossi’s robots.

      1st year 500,000 units, would be a massive proof of concept.

      ABB robots that do not need to be hooked up to the mains and server farms via cable, can be run/maintained/controlled via wifi/4G connections, can be dropped in any room, anywhere in the world and bang! production is growing. maybe.

      • orsobubu

        >production is growing

        yes, but remember that in capitalism the real problem it’s not when you’ve produced too little, it’s when you’ve produced too much; i.e. the problem today is that we have too much energy, not too little, think to defaulting nuclear fission companies, oil prices, crisis in solar cells industry (of course, this from an exchange-value, capitalistic point of view; there is not a thing like “too much energy” in respect to produced user-value for poor populations or expanding human race in the universe in general).

        • Steve Swatman

          I believe the problem today is that we produce not enough energy at too high a price, bringing down the cost of energy should be the goal, then we can use energy for far more projects, like cleaning water, desalinating, 24hr vegetable growing etc, low energy prices bring down the cost of everything, of course this would create deflation and governments would fall, but the future will be better for all in the end.

        • I think that the entirety of the surplus of oil that has been reported could be difficult to account for if the experts really started looking.

      • Stephen

        Wow 500,000 low powered efficient robots after 1year would certainly increase the production rate.

        • Steve Swatman

          Indeed, However I might suggest that each robotic would require more than one unit.

          It would also increase the robot sales, who would not want fully portable robots, with their own power source.

          The mind boggles at the thought.

      • Engineer48

        There are enough thermal power plant builders all over the world that can easily design in LENR boilers to existing their product offerings.

        What Rossi needs to do is to get their undivided attention and open checkbooks.

        Opening a factory, providing a commercially acceptable LENR reactor is all that is required.

        That will happen.

        • Steve Swatman

          Absolutely agree with all your points.

    • DrD

      He has said he will finance the production growth from sales so I assume he hasn’t enough capital and doesn’t want to borrow. Shame really.

      • Engineer48

        A thermal plant manufacturer like say GE would pay whatever to get exclusive rights to design in LENR boilers to every future thermal power plant and to get exclusive rights to upgrade every boiler their clients have to LENR boilers.

        Do you realise what there are? https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/5999a7070a06097febc55f661f835a04cc7295e731c6b787555f07ada42613b4.jpg

        The end of electric, coal, oil and gas fired boilers all over the planet.

        Not enough digits on my phone math app to calc the profit potential.

        GE or some like business will walk into the front doors of Rossi’s plant with an open and signed check. But after the IH embarkable, there will be no exclusive deals that can shut down production.
        .

    • Engineer48

      Just maybe if Rossi told you his real manufacturing goal, many would claim BS.

      So go too low and you get shite and go too high and your get shite.

      Where is the middle ground there the min shite happens?

      Please inform?

    • cashmemorz

      For a first run of production of an “unproven” device it is prudent to keep production to a low number until it is determined how fast the market absorbs from the first run. Just in case few actually want it. The quantity in second run of production is then base on the uptake rate of the first. And so on with the later production runs until it a high degree of confidence that more can be produced without fear of rejection.

      • Omega Z

        You also want to take it slow initially until you build a track record of dependability.
        Last thing you want is a major recall for reliability issues.
        Not like cell phones that are mostly all known tech.

    • Axil Axil

      That production level will produce about 50 one megawatt plants

  • Alain Samoun

    Quite OT: French English for Chinese
    I know now that I made a mistake by pluralise Chinese,as I saw it written by Americans several times, but we know, guys, that you are not too good at spelling ;-). Concerning “Chinoiseries” in French it means little details, not important.. The correction of pg did not seem too important to me….

    • Andrew

      It was closed loop system. As steam is created so does the pressure in the closed loop system, as the pressure increases so does the boiling point of water. I’m sure that at some point a sweet spot is hit and the temp of water flow being measured (after the Ecat) would be above 100 C. As long as all flow measurement were taken on the input everything would be fine as the output measurements would be liquid and steam and skew the final results.

      • Andrew

        But I’m sure you already knew that.

    • pg

      Was just a little joke

      • Alain Samoun

        I took it very seriously 😉

  • NT

    Depends upon what the phrase “settle out of court” dictates in this particular drama…

  • Engineer48

    What we have learned is there was a heat exchanger between the customer’s 1MWt load and the 1MWt ECat reactor.

    This is seriously interesting news.

    The heat exchanger may have been required to isolate the 1MW reactor’s circulating fluid system from that of the customer’s circulating fluid due to possible back contamination issues and/or the customer’s heated fluid circulation system was not water based as is the ECat.

    Heat exchangers lose heat and are not 100% efficient. So if the customer’s thermal load was 1MW then the ECat plant would be required to generate say 1.1MW of heat or if limited to 1MW of generated heat, the customer would only receive say 0.9MW of heat.

    Weaver has claimed the 1MW plant output temp was 100.1C, which is not really industrial steam and if applied to the heat exchanger would not, adjusting for heat exchanger losses, be able to do more than deliver very warm water in the customers side of the heat exchanger.

    Thus it is very difficult to accept Weaver’s claim of 100.1C ECat output temperature as being accurate.

    • DrD

      I think I remember reading some where that it was about 130 degC atmospheric pressure (dry?) but I’m not 100% certain as it’s only from memory. I don’t have time just now or I would do a search.
      Also interesting that Matts says they ignored the energy needed to heat the water to boiling point and IF the steam was at 100.1 then only the latent heat was relevant. If it was 130 degC I had also wonder if they ignored that too (the energy needed to heat the steam). That is to make the calculation simple whilst giving a very conservative COP. Somewhat surprising but why would they deliberately ignore part of the output ontop of the 10% already subtracted.

      • Does anyone know whether the meeting of Bob Greenyer with me356 happened or is happening right now?

        Bob said he is targeting to visit me356 in the week of 16th of May, so this week.

        • Alan Smith

          Bob is waiting to get a final appointment to travel.

          • Okay, so this week the meeting will not happen?

          • Alan Smith

            It all depends on ME356.

          • Bob Greenyer

            I am making myself available from Thursday. He knows this and I am waiting on an agreed convenient proposal from him.

          • Bob Greenyer

            Ok – me356 has just written to me to say he is not ready for me yet due to a little illness and other work commitments slowing him down. He is at pains to say that he stands by things he has said recently and will write to me with an update in due course. I, in turn, have said that I will make myself available to visit him from the this Thursday to the 30/5 and from the 7/6

            This does explain why he has gone quiet recently (other than because of all the harassing) and it is good that the communication line is still open.

            I will update immediately I know more.

          • @#[email protected])(#$(#&%$~)#$)!(%&

          • Omega Z

            THAT kind of Language will get you Banned LENR G
            🙂

          • Bob Greenyer

            Is that a sign of frustration!

            I feel your pain.

          • Alan Smith

            Latest news suggests it won’t be happening this week.

    • I also think I saw somewhere a temperature well above 100 degrees. I would be surprised if Weaver can confirm that it was just 100.1.

      • Engineer48

        Weaver also claimed the 1MW reactor was in an adjacent warehouse unit to the customer’s warehouse unit but as Rossi has revealed that statement is not valid.

        So it seems Weaver makes stuff up?

        • An ‘adjacent warehouse unit’ could be a question of interpretation. But I believe that output temp 100.1˚C is plainly wrong. Curious to claim that, since it will be mercilessly proven true or false when the report is published. Not my headache though.

          • Omega Z

            Mats

            You say Rossi offered the 11.5 million back ands Darden dordiet the IP rights.

            Maybe that wasn’t even an option for Darden as they have already sold shares to Woodford. I tend to believe Darden, “Like DGT” couldn’t meet the full $89 million. Even a $60 million tender would be in default of the contract.

          • Engineer48

            What Rossi said was pay me the full $89M as per the contract or our deal is finished and I walk away.

          • Omega Z

            Sorry, I’m trying to determine how this appeared. It’s not what I typed originally.
            ->”back ands Darden dordiet the”

          • Engineer48

            I did ask Weaver about the adjacent warehouse unit claim site address as 7859 is occupied by Rontan Signals (as per their web site http://www.rontan.com) and 7863 seems unoccupied. So the Weaver claim seemed possible.

            He never replied as he does when asked a question that he does not want to answer.

            Also asked him if IH or Leonardo designed & manufactured the 2 reactors (prime and backup) in the long 40′ container.

            Again no answer. Do you have an answer to the last question?

      • Stephen

        I would be very surprised if it was the output temperature. I wonder if the 100.1 degrees C was a minimum reference or control temperature to ensure it was maintained as steam at air pressure. Or perhaps a minimum temperatures in standby. Or perhaps the minimum input temperature he used even if the water was 60 deg C.

        Do we know if the 52 backup units were maintained on in a standby state so they could be quickly switched in if needed or fully off?

        • Omega Z

          Output of 100`C to 120`C was required in the contract.

          According to Rossi, the 52 backup reactors were only powered up in the beginning to be certain they worked should they be needed latter.

          • I suppose that Weaver’s intended implication is that the contractual requirment was only just achieved, i.e., by 0.1 degree (which could then be discounted as measurement error).

    • Alan Smith

      If, as suggested, the customer was using the heat in the ‘etching/washing’ method of making catalytic metal sponges, the process water is highly corrosive -think strong alkaline solution. Hence a heat exchanger is a must.

      • wpj

        Also depends on which type they make regards the temperature/caustic

        ………The various procedures for the preparation of Raney nickel4 from the nickel-aluminum alloy differ from one another in the method of adding the alloy, in the concentration of sodium hydroxide, in the temperature and duration of digestion, and in the method of washing the catalyst free of sodium aluminate and alkali. For convenience in reference, the Raney nickel catalysts prepared by various procedures have been designated W-1, W-2, W-3, W-4, W-5, W-6, and W-7

      • Unfortunately, as I’ve pointed out before, the ‘raney nickel’ theory falls over on any number of counts. A few of these are:

        (1) The reaction (dissolution of aluminium in NaOH) is highly exothermic (as is dissolving NaOH to make the etching solution) so once started no additional heat input is required and none can be absorbed.

        (2) A site license (public domain – checkable) would have been required for handling of caustic materials, and suitable signage would have been required at the entrance to the facility.

        (3) The process produces quantities of hydrogen gas, for which capture arrangements must have been in place. It would have been illegal to discharge H2 to atmosphere other than in trivial amounts.

        (4) The process requires large amounts of water for washing the foam metal. If this was discharged to drain, a site license (public domain – checkable) would have been required.

        (5) The process requires delivery of quantities of Ni/Al alloy and NaOH, tankerage for waste aluminium hydroxide solution, and (if not discharged to drain) very large quantities of contaminated washwater, and removal of product. There is zero evidence of the logistics activity required, and no evidence of the facilities that would have been necessary for it to happen.

        The only point at which heating is required is force drying of the foam product which would normally take place in a drying oven, but the handling difficulty of shipping ‘wet’ foam to a remotely placed dryer would seem to make this also an unlikely possibility.

        • wpj

          Point 1 falls down, I’m afraid……………

          On a plant one would always use 40% NaOH solution which is a direct product of the chlor-alkali process. Solid is MUCH more expensive as water has to be removed.

          The literature from JM indicates that the process is conducted at 90C for several hours.

          • Yes, I only mentioned initial dissolving of NaOH as an aside. As compensation for the partial loss to my argument, factor in the additional need to deliver NaOH solution, rather than the lighter, more compact solid!

            The point is that the reaction of NaOH solution with aluminium is exothermic and therefore could not absorb e-Cat output. To limit the temperature to 90C, active cooling is required.

          • wpj

            As for the hydrogen, much of it is absorbed by the Ni catalyst. Only made is once myself, but there wasn’t much hydrogen given off.

            …………..Sponge Metal™ Catalysts are prepared from alloys of transition

            metals and aluminum. The aluminum is leached from the alloy

            structure, leaving behind an active metal surface covered or saturated

            with adsorbed hydrogen………………..

          • The reaction is 2 Al + 2 NaOH + 6 H2O → 2 Na+ + 2[Al(OH)4]- + 3 H2. If the initial alloy is 50/50 by volume Ni/Al then each Ni atom in the foam would need to absorb an average of 1.5 hydrogen atoms.

            Given the short exposure time, only the extreme surface layer – perhaps one or two atoms thick – would be saturated by hydrogen. My guess would be that at least 95% of the hydrogen produced would devolve as gas, rising to 99.99% when surface saturation has gone to completion.

            Admittedly these are estimates, and I would be open to a more scientific calculation.

          • wpj

            ………….The hydrogen content of Raney nickel has been found by direct analysis to vary between one-half and one atom of hydro- gen per atom of nickel…………

          • wpj
          • That is in connection with the (re)concentration of NaOH solution for recycling and reduction in volume of washwater. It seems unlikely that such additional facilities were included in a volume of only 20 x 3 x 3 metres (65′ container?).

            This quote from the linked doc gives an idea of the scale of the plant used for making catalyst foam: “The way forward was to clear out a warehouse to make room for crucibles, drums and products that were in current use which in turn freed up space on the manufacturing floor.

          • wpj

            ………..Two ingredients constitute the critical raw materials in the production of the sponge nickel product: sodium hydroxide, in the form of a 50% caustic solution, and water. They may be added multiple times (for ‘multiple boil’ products) over the course of the batch………….

            Yes, the concentration of the waste stream is another aspect, but it definitely indicates that the “boil” refers to the batch production.

          • We seem to be going round in circles. Yes, the leaching of Al is performed at nearly boiling point, but the heat is supplied by the reaction itself, provided that the lye concentration is c. 40%. The reference to natural gas is in the recycling arrangements for lye and washwater, which would have needed more space than was apparently available.

          • wpj

            Agreed on that! (going around…)

            The point is that there are different types of the catalyst; with the finely divided “Raney” type your statements could well be true.

            There are also the true “sponge” types which are produced from much larger hand sized chunks of alloy to give a honeycomb type structure (for gas and flow processes) which require much longer processing time and, as they are not finely divided, there is little exotherm. I would believe that these are what might have been produced as they are much safer to deal with than the finely divided Raney type material (nasty stuff!).

            As an aside Sponge Metal is a registered trade mark of Johnson Matthey.

            No more replies from me on this.

            PS Even the “Organic Synthesis” method for Raney Nickel says to heat at 50C after the initial exotherm has subsided.

          • Me neither. Agree to disagree that this process was likely to have taken place at the warehouse.

          • wpj

            OK, final one!

            If it was only Rossi saying then I would agree that it possibly did not take place. I am only convinced because of Mats’ contacts who visited and found out that it was “sponge metals” (TM) being made.

          • Stephen

            Are there any equipments that use 1MW hot water or steam that have similar dimension to point 5 above? 3m x 3m x 20m?

            It seems to me that there maybe possibilities, such as generators, ovens low temp chemical kilns, hydrolic devices and machines, high pressure compression or water or gas jet devices, or perhaps some combinations of these things. But I’m far from knowledgable about such devices power requirements.

          • US_Citizen71

            Commercial laundry washers and dryers would fit. Depending on heat recovery systems 600-1800lbs of laundry require the equivalent of 1MW worth of heat to process (hot water and drying). The large washers hold approximately 900lbs per load and there are such a thing as steam heat powered dryers.

          • Stephen

            Yup its a good idea, but we would likely know about the laundry vans. on the other hand I think similar processes and equipment might be used to wash dry, compress, cut and pack other products might be possible for example.

          • US_Citizen71

            I’m not sure we would know about deliveries and pick-ups. No one checked the place out until after the test and drop-offs would likely be late day. I would assume pick-ups would occur at the same time, fewer trips.

          • Stephen

            fair point

          • wpj

            Is everyone forgetting Mats’ contact who saw the production through and open door and was told that it was sponge metal catalysts that they were making?

          • Stephen

            Maybe i am sorry if I did. Would that fit in equipment that size? For me I don’t see why not it seems typical size of industrial equipment.

          • wpj

            The height seems pretty low for a chemical reactor of the sort that they ought to be using, though they did say it was a scaled down version of the plant operation so that it required 1MW. The rest is fine; I have seen small industrial units with multiple reactors in there making extremely hazardous materials.

          • Zeddicus23

            Assuming there was an industrial process going on, I would guess that it would have to be endothermic. One highly endothermic process is the manufacture of sponge iron from coal, although I doubt that this was the process. There must be other highly endothermic processes. If the process were exothermic, then I would guess that much less heat would be needed, since the process itself would generate extra heat, so it makes sense that it’s either “neutral” or highly endothermic.

          • LuFong

            We can make statements but obviously they are just educated guesses. We may never get the data you mention. But I think we can bound the problem given what we know and I think my statements reflect that.

            Ditto for Weaver. I think he has provided a lot of additional information about what has happened, albeit it not always accurate. At the very least his statements are more representative of IH’s position and are valuable and should not be ignored.

            For example he claimed that the 1MW plant was padlocked. Well how it came to be padlocked is up in the air but nobody knew that it was padlocked before he mentioned it. There were many here who thought the plant was still operational.

            I have to say I have some doubts about your objectivity. I don’t mean to dissuade you from posting but to be honest I see you as the anti-Weaver. You might take that as a complement!

          • Omega Z

            ->”many here who thought the plant was still operational.”

            That’s because they didn’t keep up. But as of late, keeping up has been anything but easy.

          • LuFong

            I know it’s very difficult to even remember what we read over the weeks, months, and even years. My goal is to get to the truth of the matter especially with regard to whether the E-Cat works as Rossi claims. I ask a lot of questions and sometimes put out statements that I’m not sure of to further this end. I’m hoping that this civil suit, MFMPs efforts, Rossi, and possibly me356’s efforts will get us there.

          • Engineer48

            Rossi offered to sell my clients 10 x 1MW reactors to do a trial. They are engineers and no money would go Rossi way until the reactors passed tests set by power plant steam generation engineers.

            So where is there advantage to Rossi to offer to sell non operational steam generators to engineers who live steam 24/7?

            What IH and Weaver says negative about Rossi and his 1MW ECat, to these guys are just corporate game playing BS.
            .

          • LuFong

            I responded to this above. Did he offer the plants or the heat? Would he accept the heat? How about some combination of buying the heat with an option to buy the plant after a year?

            The advantage is that Rossi can claim $15M in future revenue. It only costs him about $100K to make one of these things (Low Temperature, somewhere in all the civil suit paperwork). It can be used to get short term bridge loans for his factory or other endeavors. I also believe that either Rossi has the goods or he has some mental issues (I’m not the only one) and this is part of this. All conjecture–I don’t take this seriously.

          • Engineer48

            He offered to sell the reactors.

          • Engineer48

            I have seen Weaver make false statement and avoid answering other questions of logic. So I take him as I find him. An unreliable provided of dubious information that at best suits his agenda.

            As an engineer, I’m anti everything until proven reliable.

            I have had many conversations with Rossi about procuring 1MW reactor modules for potential clients. He has never lied to me nor has he ever asked for non escrowed money up front and the money release was always based on pre agreed test conditions being met.

            Please show me where this is a scam or fraud?

            Please understand my potential clients were thermal power plant engineers that lived steam boilers and steam powered subcritical turbines 24/7. No way can anyone fool them.

          • I think I would like it very much if you wrote a full length article about your interactions with Rossi, with as much detail as you can remember, and submit it to E-Cat World.
            http://www.e-catworld.com/submit-a-post-to-e-cat-world-2/

            It seems you have valuable first hand knowledge and a willingness to share it.

            Were you involved with the NASA/Rossi flirtation that almost resulted in an agreement?

          • Engineer48

            No direct NASA involvement

            I’m Aussie. Frank and Mats know of my involvement.

            Do have reliable NASA contracts that have told me there are at least 2 NASA teams with working LENR reactors and they have also achieved direct electrical generation.

            Also know my thermal power plant potential clients told me the whole power generation industry knows of LENR and there are massive undercurrents in flow as everybody in that industry knows the future is LENR.

            Both AirBus and NASA are working on LENR powered aircraft and spacecraft but no one talks outside their groups.

            There have been 1,000s of LENR papers published. It really surprised me how little people have researched what they so easily trash or maybe they are paid to trash it.

            Check out this US Navy LENR presentation out and then watch ALL of this interview.

            https://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/index.php/Attachment/386-IEEE-brief-DeChiaro-9-2015-pdf/

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxBJjWzlKl0

            LENR is VERY REAL as is Rossi’s ECat reactor. What makes Rossi so special is he is the 1st to achieve a commercially ready heat generator. He will not be the last.

          • Are the NASA programs black or do they just self censor?

            Is everybody waiting for everybody else to go first?

            Is everybody letting Rossi take the lead so they don’t have to deal with the wall of FUD that would come their way if they took the lead instead?

            If what you say is true (and you seem credible to me, to date) then this is an utterly bizarre situation.

          • Engineer48
          • Engineer48
          • Got it. Still just a slide from a NAVSEA guy pointing at two NASA projects. Who is to say he got it totally right? Why doesn’t NASA say anything? And it was 7 months ago and nothing has seeped out about it yet?

            Like I asked earlier… what are they waiting for?

          • LuFong

            You attract the little fish to get the bigger fish. Just sayin’. Rossi did this with the home E-Cats, had millions of people sign up for one and didn’t take a dime (I have two on order). Why? He probably knew that his technology wasn’t ready (version 1.0, now version 3.0beta). He also knew that he could not sell them, or claim to sell them, without some level of safety certification. In the meantime he was selling distributor licenses. Seems very much like what he’s doing now.

          • Engineer48

            I ordered 3 x 10kW units 2 days after the offer opened.

            Rossi has always been very open about the domestic certification issues.

            Do you have any experience getting a domestic certification? Imaging telling your home insurance company you just installed a 10kW low energy NUCLEAR REACTOR in your home? What would they do? Maybe quickly hang up the phone and CANCEL your insurance policy?

            There is NO reference point to achieve domestic certification for a low energy NUCLEAR REACTOR.

            So please give the man time to do the impossible.

          • LuFong

            He stated that he was working with UL on the certification and made it sound like it was going to happen (more or less). At one time this was a big deal and he had hired someone to negotiate this etc, etc, etc.

            The problem is you do not need UL certification to install in your house (local authority dependent of course). True there is an insurance risk but that is not an issue for many people. Many products are instead, tested, in homes or on the road before safety certification is issued. Google drove driverless cars on CA roads. Dean Kamen installed trial versions of his fuel cell in peoples homes and I’m sure these were not UL approved and probably no permits even pulled.

            I would imagine Rossi would install a number of these in homes for test purposes anyway before committing to mass production. Many shops and barns would easily accommodate this arrangement.

            I got banned on Rossi’s blog when I tried to discuss this with him.

            There were also number of logistical issues at that time which I pointed out but Rossi seemed to have ignored or wasn’t aware of till later. One was that it required something like 30Amp service so installation was not trivial (requiring an electrician for most people). The other problem was that it used electrical energy which for many people would not provide much if any economic benefit since they heated with lower cost cost fuels like NG (not everywhere).

            I share your safety concerns. But the reliance on the word “nuclear” is not fair. Currently when someone says nuclear they think fission or fusion. Clearly this is not what is happening in the classic sense. LENR, while it uses the word nuclear, is something different and is why others use other terms.

            And speaking of safety, Rossi and others make a big deal out of the SGS safety certificate Rossi achieved. But if you look at this it is nothing more than a design checklist of features some device might have. For example, does it have a on/off switch? Does it have rounded corners. They did have to go and look at one but that’s about it. No questioning about the “nuclear” nature of the device. It is a joke.

            So while I certainly hope Rossi comes through so far he hasn’t.

          • cashmemorz

            OK. So I’ll use the version of LENR that has the long name of Low Energy Nano Reactor. Just hope that the insurance broker I’m talking to is not aware where that name started from (cold fusion) and the in between names with nuke in it.

        • Alan Smith

          These are very good points. But on point 3 I am not sure that discharging clean hydrogen to the atmosphere at anything less than refinery volumes would require any kind of permit – In the UK at least discharging clean and odour-free gas which does not contain officially recognised pollutants like SO2, NOX, Particulates etc (it’s a long list) of pollutants would definitely fall entirely under the radar.

        • Engineer48

          Rossi stated the heat used by the customer’s process was endothermic.

          He never mentioned metallic catalytic sponges

      • Engineer48

        Yup.

        Back contamination of the reactors from the process return water would be a real big NO NO!

    • Stephen

      How much energy (latent heat) is required to convert 35 m3 water at near 100 deg C to steam of 100.1 deg C? Assuming air pressure.

      I understand from point 7 above the energy to heat the input water to from 60 deg C to boiling was not taken into account.

      • DrD

        It is only 940W!
        That can’t be correct though, it should be 1MW

    • Ged

      100.1 C is also ficticiously precise. Maybe he meant dalmations?

      • Stephen

        if so I’m very sad about what happened to the last one 😉

        • Not sure I want to try to visualise 0.1 of a dalmation…

          • Engineer48

            😉 😉

        • Engineer48

          So what happens next if Rossi wins Ih can’t pay and declares bankruptcy?

          Ok IH is out of business, yea says Rossi, but to be sure Cherokee will ensure IH has no capital to pay Rossi.

          As I see it, the Rossi complaint has identified Cherokee as the prime licensee and this should give Rossi the ability to go Cherokee for the total court awarded payment.

          Mght not be good to be a Cherokee investor.

      • Stephen

        I guess it does confirm its steam at air pressure rather than boiling hot water?

      • Engineer48

        😉

    • Bob Matulis

      Suggests boiling water. I get 100.1 when I boil my eggs.

      • Engineer48

        Yes but that is wet steam and not dry steam as it needed for max heat transmission in steam heat transfer systems.

        • Bob Matulis

          Agreed.

  • Engineer48

    What we have learned is there was a heat exchanger between the customer’s 1MWt load and the 1MWt ECat reactor.

    This is seriously interesting news.

    The heat exchanger may have been required to isolate the 1MW reactor’s circulating fluid system from that of the customer’s circulating fluid due to possible back contamination issues and/or the customer’s heated fluid circulation system was not water based as is the ECat.

    Heat exchangers lose heat and are not 100% efficient. So if the customer’s thermal load was 1MW then the ECat plant would be required to generate say 1.1MW of heat or if limited to 1MW of generated heat, the customer would only receive say 0.9MW of heat.

    Weaver has claimed the 1MW plant output temp was 100.1C, which is not really industrial steam and if applied to the heat exchanger would not, adjusting for heat exchanger losses, be able to do more than deliver very warm water in the customers side of the heat exchanger.

    Thus it is very difficult to accept Weaver’s claim of 100.1C ECat output temperature as being accurate.

    • DrD

      I think I remember reading some where that it was about 130 degC atmospheric pressure (dry?) but I’m not 100% certain as it’s only from memory. I don’t have time just now or I would do a search.
      Also interesting that Matts says they ignored the energy needed to heat the water to boiling point and IF the steam was at 100.1 then only the latent heat was relevant. If it was 130 degC I had also wonder if they ignored that too (the energy needed to heat the steam). That is to make the calculation simple whilst giving a very conservative COP. Somewhat surprising but why would they deliberately ignore part of the output ontop of the 10% already subtracted.

    • I also think I saw somewhere a temperature well above 100 degrees. I would be surprised if Weaver can confirm that it was just 100.1.

      • Engineer48

        Weaver also claimed the 1MW reactor was in an adjacent warehouse unit to the customer’s warehouse unit but as Rossi has revealed that statement is not valid.

        So it seems Weaver makes stuff up?

        • An ‘adjacent warehouse unit’ could be a question of interpretation. But I believe that output temp 100.1˚C is plainly wrong. Curious to claim that, since it will be mercilessly proven true or false when the report is published. Not my headache though.

          • Omega Z

            Mats

            You say Rossi offered the 11.5 million back ands Darden dordiet the IP rights.

            Maybe that wasn’t even an option for Darden as they have already sold shares to Woodford. I tend to believe Darden, “Like DGT” couldn’t meet the full $89 million. Even a $60 million tender would be in default of the contract.

          • Engineer48

            What Rossi said was pay me the full $89M as per the contract or our deal is finished and I walk away.

            It is a VERY big deal to Rossi to have an independently monitored 1 year 1MW plant test with a commercial customer.

            That opens the door for Leonardo to immediately, after the test was finished, go whole hog into the market with high credibility.

          • Omega Z

            Sorry, I’m trying to determine how this appeared. It’s not what I typed originally.
            ->”back ands Darden dordiet the”

          • Engineer48

            I did ask Weaver about the adjacent warehouse unit claim site address as 7859 is occupied by Rontan Signals (as per their web site http://www.rontan.com) and 7863 seems unoccupied. So the Weaver claim seemed possible.

            He never replied as he does when asked a question that he does not want to answer.

            Also asked him if IH or Leonardo designed & manufactured the 2 reactors (prime and backup) in the long 40′ container.

            Again no answer. Do you have an answer to the last question?

      • Stephen

        I would be very surprised if it was the output temperature. I wonder if the 100.1 degrees C was a minimum reference or control temperature to ensure it was maintained as steam at air pressure. Or perhaps a minimum temperatures in standby. Or perhaps the minimum input temperature he used even if the water was 60 deg C.

        Do we know if the 52 backup units were maintained on in a standby state so they could be quickly switched in if needed or fully off?

        • Omega Z

          Output of 100`C to 120`C was required in the contract.

          According to Rossi, the 52 backup reactors were only powered up in the beginning to be certain they worked should they be needed latter.

          • I suppose that Weaver’s intended implication is that the contractual requirement was only just achieved, i.e., by 0.1 degree (which could then be dismissed as measurement error).

    • Alan Smith

      If, as suggested, the customer was using the heat in the ‘etching/washing’ method of making catalytic metal sponges, the process water is highly corrosive -think strong alkaline solution. Hence a heat exchanger is a must.

      • wpj

        Also depends on which type they make regards the temperature/caustic

        ………The various procedures for the preparation of Raney nickel4 from the nickel-aluminum alloy differ from one another in the method of adding the alloy, in the concentration of sodium hydroxide, in the temperature and duration of digestion, and in the method of washing the catalyst free of sodium aluminate and alkali. For convenience in reference, the Raney nickel catalysts prepared by various procedures have been designated W-1, W-2, W-3, W-4, W-5, W-6, and W-7

      • Unfortunately, as I’ve pointed out before, the ‘raney nickel’ theory falls over on any number of counts. A few of these are:

        (1) The reaction (dissolution of aluminium in NaOH) is highly exothermic (as is dissolving NaOH to make the etching solution) so once started no additional heat input is required and none can be absorbed. In fact a means of heat removal would have been necessary to prevent boiling.

        (2) A site license (public domain – checkable) would have been required for handling of caustic materials, and suitable externally-visible signage would have been required at the entrance to the facility and also wherever delivery took place.

        (3) The process produces quantities of hydrogen gas, for which capture arrangements must have been in place as it would have been illegal to discharge H2 to atmosphere other than in trivial amounts.

        (4) The process requires large amounts of water for washing the foam metal. If this was discharged to drain, a site license (public domain – checkable) would have been required.

        (5) The process requires delivery of quantities of Ni/Al alloy and NaOH, tankerage for waste aluminium hydroxide solution, and (if not discharged to drain) very large quantities of contaminated washwater, removal of compressed hydrogen (unless burned off, which might complicate the heat budget considerably) and removal of product. There is zero evidence of the logistics activity required, and no evidence of the facilities that would have been necessary for this.

        The only point at which heating is required is force drying of the foam product which would normally take place in a conveyor drying oven, but the handling difficulty of shipping ‘wet’ foam to a remotely placed dryer, and the lack of any evidence for substantial materials handling at the site would seem to make this also an unlikely possibility.

        • wpj

          Point 1 falls down, I’m afraid……………

          On a plant one would always use 40% NaOH solution which is a direct product of the chlor-alkali process. Solid is MUCH more expensive as water has to be removed.

          The literature from JM indicates that the process is conducted at 90C for several hours.

          • Yes, I only mentioned initial dissolving of NaOH as an aside. As compensation for the partial loss to my argument, factor in the additional need to deliver NaOH solution, rather than the lighter, more compact solid!

            The point is that the reaction of NaOH solution with aluminium is exothermic and therefore could not absorb e-Cat output. To limit the temperature to 90C, active cooling is required.

          • wpj

            As for the hydrogen, much of it is absorbed by the Ni catalyst. Only made is once myself, but there wasn’t much hydrogen given off.

            …………..Sponge Metal™ Catalysts are prepared from alloys of transition

            metals and aluminum. The aluminum is leached from the alloy

            structure, leaving behind an active metal surface covered or saturated

            with adsorbed hydrogen………………..

          • The primary reaction is 2 Al + 2 NaOH + 6 H2O => 2 NaAl(OH)4 + 3 H2. If the initial alloy is 50/50 by volume Ni/Al then each Ni atom in the foam would need to adsorb an average of 1.5 hydrogen molecules (3 atoms).

            Given the low solubility of H2 and the short exposure time, only the extreme surface layer – perhaps one or two atoms thick – would be saturated by hydrogen. My guess would be that at least 95% of the hydrogen produced would devolve as gas, rising quickly to 99%+ when surface saturation has gone to completion.

            Admittedly these are estimates, and I would be open to a more scientific calculation, but I’m reasonably sure it would not be possible to account for more than a fraction of the H2 produced, via this mechanism.

          • wpj

            ………….The hydrogen content of Raney nickel has been found by direct analysis to vary between one-half and one atom of hydro- gen per atom of nickel…………

          • wpj
          • That is in connection with the (re)concentration of NaOH solution for recycling and reduction in volume of washwater. It seems unlikely that such additional facilities were included in a volume of only 20 x 3 x 3 metres.

            This quote from your linked doc gives an idea of the scale of the plant used for making catalyst foam: “The way forward was to clear out a warehouse to make room for crucibles, drums and products that were in current use which in turn freed up space on the manufacturing floor.

          • wpj

            ………..Two ingredients constitute the critical raw materials in the production of the sponge nickel product: sodium hydroxide, in the form of a 50% caustic solution, and water. They may be added multiple times (for ‘multiple boil’ products) over the course of the batch………….

            Yes, the concentration of the waste stream is another aspect, but it definitely indicates that the “boil” refers to the batch production.

          • We seem to be going round in circles. Yes, the leaching of Al is performed at nearly boiling point, but the heat is supplied by the exothermic reaction itself, provided that the lye concentration is at least 40% or so. As the concentration falls, this requires cyclic replenishment of lye to bring the temperature back up – ‘multiple boils’. The reference to natural gas is in the recycling arrangements for lye and washwater, which would have needed more space than was apparently available.

          • wpj

            Agreed on that! (going around…)

            The point is that there are different types of the catalyst; with the finely divided “Raney” type your statements could well be true.

            There are also the true “sponge” types which are produced from much larger hand sized chunks of alloy to give a honeycomb type structure (for gas and flow processes) which require much longer processing time and, as they are not finely divided, there is little exotherm. I would believe that these are what might have been produced as they are much safer to deal with than the finely divided Raney type material (nasty stuff!).

            As an aside Sponge Metal is a registered trade mark of Johnson Matthey.

            No more replies from me on this.

            PS Even the “Organic Synthesis” method for Raney Nickel says to heat at 50C after the initial exotherm has subsided.

          • Me neither. Agree to disagree that this process was likely to have taken place at the warehouse.

          • wpj

            OK, final one!

            If it was only Rossi saying then I would agree that it possibly did not take place. I am only convinced because of Mats’ contacts who visited and found out that it was “sponge metals” (TM) being made.

        • Alan Smith

          These are very good points. But on point 3 I am not sure that discharging clean hydrogen to the atmosphere at anything less than refinery volumes would require any kind of permit – In the UK at least discharging clean and odour-free gas which does not contain officially recognised pollutants like SO2, NOX, Particulates etc (it’s a long list) of pollutants would definitely fall entirely under the radar.

        • Engineer48

          Rossi stated the heat used by the customer’s process was endothermic.

          He never mentioned metallic catalytic sponges

      • Engineer48

        Yup.

        Back contamination of the reactors from the process return water would be a real big NO NO!

    • roseland67

      IF, in fact there was a heat exchanger in between 2 FLUID streams
      The heat transfer rates should be relatively easy to figure out, especially
      If the 2 fluids were water.
      The ERV would know this and should have set up proper flow, temperature,
      Specific gravity and specific heat measurement devices.
      It becomes slightly more difficult if the 2 heat transfer media are not liquid,
      And are not pure water but with the above sensors it is still doable.
      A simple energy balance, (similar to Stremenos’ original nuclear calcs),
      Would be sufficient.

    • Stephen

      How much energy (latent heat) is required to convert 35 m3 water at near 100 deg C to steam of 100.1 deg C? Assuming air pressure.

      I understand from point 7 above the energy to heat the input water to from 60 deg C to boiling was not taken into account.

      Can we estimate the actual output temperature of the steam from this?

      • SteveA

        36m³/day is 0.417 kg/s. Bringing that from 40 to 100C takes 69.8 kW. To boil it is another 940 kW, so 1.009 MW total. The last 0.1C is 200W. If the input power is 20 kW this gives a COP of 50.5. Now generally I would expect they would want the steam to be superheated to a higher temp or else you would get a liquid/vapor mix which is likely not good for equipment.

      • GiveADogABone

        If your choice of 100C and 100.1C implies full evaporation :-
        http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/water-thermal-properties-d_162.html
        Water weighs1000kg/m^3
        The enthalpy of water at 100C is 419.1kJ/kg
        http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/steam-vapor-enthalpy-d_160.html
        The enthalpy of steam at 100C is 2676kJ/kg
        Latent heat of evaporation= 2676-419.1=2256.9kJ/kg
        Depending on the dryness fraction of the steam, the enthalpy addition due to evaporation can vary between zero and 2256.9kJ/kg

        Full evaporation of 35m^3 requires 2256.9*1000*35kJ = 2256.9*35MJ

        You specified 100.1C outlet temperature so 100.1C it is.

      • DrD

        It is only 940kW
        (for 36 m3 per day)

    • Ged

      100.1 C is also ficticiously precise. Maybe he meant dalmations?

      • Stephen

        if so I’m very sad about what happened to the last one 😉

        • Not sure I want to try to visualise 0.1 of a dalmation…

          • Engineer48

            😉 😉

      • Stephen

        I guess it does confirm its steam at air pressure rather than boiling hot water?

      • Engineer48

        😉

    • Bob Matulis

      Suggests boiling water. I get 100.1 when I boil my eggs.

      • Engineer48

        Yes but that is wet steam and not dry steam as it needed for max heat transmission in steam heat transfer systems.

        • Bob Matulis

          Agreed.

  • Engineer48

    Have been dealing with Rossi for many years. Yes he is optimistic but he never lied to me & never asked for non escrowed money up front. All payments were based on proof of performance.

  • Axil Axil

    It sounds like IH was setting up a pump and dump scam. They never intended to manufacture. The capital attracted to Rossi’s tech would bring in money and then when with Rossi removed from the picture via a buy out or a legal case, Industrial heat would go out of business.

    The bankruptcy strategy seems to be a tried and true way that successful money management makes money today among the moneyed elite bean counters. These people are not interested in product development, but in capital manipulation.

    It is a form of pump and dump but instead of stock as the means of capital acquisition, the attraction is IP, businesses, or real estate.

    A front company is used to acquirer an attractive property to attract a large amount of capital.

    The front company is then bankrupted after a major proportion of the capital has been redirected to the holding company.

    D. Trump has used bankruptcy and casinos to divert capital to his parent company. His creditors lose money. This is called the art of the deal.

    Mit Romney and his money management fund suched the lifeblood from an valuable assets of an acquired company then after a year or two placed the hulk of the company into bankruptcy.

    And according to Matts a similar capital skimming strategy is being used in the LENR marketplace: “IH/Cherokee, as has been suggested, has a track record of putting up companies based on emerging technologies or remediation projects, collecting public and private funding (or also this link), making the funds disappear and then closing down the companies with reasonable explanations for unsuccessful development of the technology or of the project.”

    There is a ton of money in the environmental sector that can be skimmed and corporate and financial vultures and vampires are springing up to take full advantage.

    • Engineer48

      Many Venture Capital firms do pump & dump or to be kinder, do a Flip.

      I’m sure any large thermal power plant builder would LOVE to be able to have exclusive rights to add in a LENR reactor boiler instead of using coal or gas fired boiler.

      Plus the retrofit of all the world’s existing coal & gas boilers.

      Yes would be a really nice flip (sub licensee as per contract) for IH, plus the buyer would require Rossi to never compete with them, which strangely for Rossi is what the contract says.

      • Axil Axil

        When all you know how to do is flip, that is all you will do. The bean counters will not risk going into manufacturing and expose themselves to the competition that comes with it when the old tried an true ways are a sure thing.

        • Engineer48

          Yup.

          Been there, got that done to me.

          As I read the contract, IH can do a virtual flip (create a sub license) enjoy the flip profit up front & ride a % of sales commisdion gravy train for a very long time.

          Please note Weaver say said IH consider the contract binding and finalised after the $11.5m payout.

          • I winder how the buying by IH of multiple domain names would fit into this scenario? (which does seem to be a close fit with the facts).

          • Owen Geiger

            That could be part of the ruse. It makes it seem they are working toward producing product even if they aren’t.

          • Also on March 9, Mr. Wisler wrote to Tom Darden, Cherokee’s chief executive, to discuss a donation to a local arts group. He added, “On another front, how are we doing with the contribution for Gov. McGreevey?” He concluded, “It is getting awkward.“”

          • SG

            Another revealing section:

            “There was more, especially in a trail of e-mail messages obtained by the plaintiffs — some of them retrieved by court order after they were
            deleted — that showed how the redeveloper, Cherokee Investment Partners, won the Pennsauken waterfront.”

            Deleted emails? Court order to retrieve them?

          • cashmemorz

            Very odd on this point. I opened Firefox browser, then E-Cat world dot com then the topic of

            “The Possible Political Impact Should LENR Emerge (Doug Marker)”

            and everthing worked fine.

            But when I clicked on this topic

            “Mat Lewan Meets Rossi in Sweden, Rossi Bidding on Factory For QuarkX Production”

            and as I reached the comment

            “Agaricus Jerry Soloman•an hour ago
            “Also on March 9, Mr. Wisler wrote to Tom Darden, Cherokee’s chief
            executive, to discuss a donation to a local arts group. He added, “On
            another front, how are we doing with the contribution for Gov.
            McGreevey?” He concluded, “It is getting awkward.”

            Firefox crashed.

            I restarted firefox browser went to the same site topic and comment and firefox crashed again this crash occurred four times in a row. So I rebooted and the crash occured at the same place. Then reset Firefox. This worked. No more crashes at this topic point. What is odd is that the crash occurred at the point where the comment containing such curiously suspicious facts. Is it a hack of some sort regarding that fact? I am using Ubuntu system. It is supposed to be more resistant or even immune to malware if you avoid dangerous sites. So was E-Cat world hacked?

          • US_Citizen71

            No issues on Chrome. Bad nightly build on FireFox?

          • cashmemorz

            NO I’m just paranoid when coincidenses such as this happen…..

    • IH is mainly in the game to hoard and control IP and patents. They dont want to build anything. They want to pay as little as possible for the IP and raise as much money as possible from investors. That is the cashflow plan. I does not include selling a product. The plan might even be, as Darden himself says, to go very slowly forwad, which might suit other stakeholders agenda.

      So they’ve (Weaver being a frontrunner) been shopping around and offering people in the LENR community small cash payments and large IH stock payments for their IP. (Brillouin, Lenuco etc.) also on the pretense they will share with them Rossi IP. Unfortunately for these researchers they sold the patents for peanuts …

      • Steve Savage

        Maybe because compared to Rossi’s tech those patents are worth peanuts.

      • Engineer48

        Weaver has said many times, the contract was finalised with the 2nd $10m payment.

        However if you actually read the contract that is not what it says and a total payment of $100.5m is required to finalise the contract.

        But what the heck, as IH seems to think, let’s just ignore the 3rd payment obligation of $89m and move forward as if that 3rd payment condition of the contract never existed.

    • Bob Matulis

      Axil, what you write makes sense. It seems you are suggesting that the $11.5 million dollar investment does not suggest merit to Rossi ECAT claims. Rather it is part of a scheme to bilk people of their money. Does this mean you now believe there is not merit with the ECAT?

  • Axil Axil

    It sounds like IH was setting up a pump and dump scheme. The first 11.5 million setup up the honey trap for the investor where by Rossi’s IP rights brings in investment. Next, the relationship with Rossi is broken and IH cannot produce product. Next IH goes out of business and little of the invested capital is available for returned to the investors. IH never intended to manufacture a LENR product. The capital attracted to Rossi’s tech would bring in money and then when Rossi is removed from the picture via a buyout, a failed performance test, or a legal case, Industrial Heat would go out of business with little capital remaining to be refunded to the investors.

    The bankruptcy strategy seems to be a tried and true way that successful money management makes money today among the moneyed elite bean counters. These people are not interested in product development, but in capital manipulation.

    It is a form of pump and dump but instead of stock as the means of capital acquisition, the attraction is IP, businesses, or real estate.

    A front company is used to acquirer an attractive property to attract a large amount of capital.

    The front company is then bankrupted after a major proportion of the capital has been redirected to the holding company.

    D. Trump has used bankruptcy and casinos to divert capital to his parent company. His creditors lose money but not Trump. This is called the art of the deal.

    Mit Romney and his money management fund sucked the lifeblood from an valuable assets of an acquired company then after a year or two placed the hulk and worthless corpse of the company into bankruptcy.

    And according to Matts a similar capital skimming strategy is being used in the LENR marketplace: “IH/Cherokee, as has been suggested, has a track record of putting up companies based on emerging technologies or remediation projects, collecting public and private funding (or also this link), making the funds disappear and then closing down the companies with reasonable explanations for unsuccessful development of the technology or of the project.”

    There is a ton of money in the environmental sector that can be skimmed and corporate and financial vultures and vampires are springing up to take full advantage.

    • Engineer48

      Many Venture Capital firms do pump & dump or to be kinder, do a Flip.

      I’m sure any large thermal power plant builder would LOVE to be able to have exclusive rights to add in a LENR reactor boiler instead of using coal or gas fired boiler.

      Plus the retrofit of all the world’s existing coal & gas boilers.

      Yes would be a really nice flip (sub licensee as per contract) for IH, plus the buyer would require Rossi to never compete with them, which strangely for Rossi is what the contract says.

      That is as long as the contract is valid and binding on Rossi.

      • Axil Axil

        When all you know how to do is flip, that is all you will do. The bean counters will not risk going into manufacturing and expose themselves to the competition that comes with it when the old tried an true ways are a sure thing.

        • Engineer48

          Yup.

          Been there, got that done to me.

          As I read the contract, IH can do a virtual flip (create a sub license) enjoy the flip profit up front & ride a % of sales commission gravy train for a very long time.

          Please note Weaver say said IH consider the contract binding and finalised after the $11.5m payout. That tells us a lot.

          • I wonder how the buying by IH of multiple domain names would fit into this scenario? (which does seem to be a close fit with the facts).

          • Owen Geiger

            That could be part of the ruse. It makes it seem they are working toward producing product even if they aren’t.

    • IH is mainly in the game to hoard and control IP and patents. They dont want to build anything. They want to pay as little as possible for the IP and raise as much money as possible from investors. That is the cashflow plan. I does not include selling a product. The plan might even be, as Darden himself says, to go very slowly forwad, which might suit other stakeholders agenda.

      So they’ve (Weaver being a frontrunner) been shopping around and offering people in the LENR community small cash payments and large IH stock payments for their IP. (Brillouin, Lenuco etc.) also on the pretense they will share with them Rossi IP. Unfortunately for these researchers they sold the patents for peanuts …

      • Steve Savage

        Maybe because compared to Rossi’s tech those patents are worth peanuts.

      • Engineer48

        Weaver has said many times, the contract was finalised with the 2nd $10m payment.

        However if you actually read the contract that is not what it says and a total payment of $100.5m is required to finalise the contract.

        But what the heck, as IH seems to think, let’s just ignore the 3rd payment obligation of $89m and move forward as if that 3rd payment condition of the contract never existed.

    • Bob Matulis

      Axil, what you write makes sense. It seems you are suggesting that the $11.5 million dollar investment does not suggest merit to Rossi ECAT claims. Rather it is part of a scheme to bilk people of their money. Does this mean you now believe there is not merit with the ECAT?

  • Another comment from IH related:

    I checked with Darden. Rossi is lying about the so-called buy-back offer and Sifferkoll continues to be his water boy (or is there something more vile in that bucket?). Rossi’s additional disclosures to Mats are very interesting and helpful. I hope he keeps up this pace and look forward to seeing what they can cook up next.

    https://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/index.php/Thread/3260-Why-did-IH-refuse-to-give-up-Rossi-s-license-and-IP-rights-for-all-the-money-bac/?postID=20200#post20200

    It becomes now even more interesting!

    • SG

      My guess: it was an oral offer, which was not accepted. I.H. can then claim it never happened, at least while not under oath (and even then, they could, with some risk attached). Now, if Mr. Rossi has evidence of a written offer, delivered to IH, then well, that would be interesting too. And, if Mr. Rossi is outright lying and IH, Mr. Darden, and Mr. Weaver are the boyscouts in this whole affair, then well, that would be just as interesting!

      • Axil Axil

        The buy back exercise would have informed Rossi that IH had developed nefarious motives that Rossi would be wise to protect himself against. This may have caused Rossi to begin his accumulation of evidence in anticipation to a legal fight at the end of the test. I would anticipate in such an hostile environment, Rossi was under the guidance of his lawyer from very early on in the test. The Rossi lawyer must have advised Rossi to record all conversations and transaction in preparation for the trial. This may be where the 18 books came from. This also may be why the IH personnel worked at arms length without Rossi’s help during the test. This is why Rossi made sure that IH workers did not see any new IP development that Rossi produced at the end of the year.

        • Engineer48

          Agree.

    • Gerard McEk

      Although the new information of Mats is quite interesting, it does not give us more sight on the law suit outcome. If e.g. AR has really offered to payback on return of license and he can prove that, then he has a strong case on IH’s refusal. But can he? Did he vid it? Was it on paper? So I am hoping he will be able to show and prove his QuarkX soon, that may be be more revealing than an endless suit case in short term and it may also help him to convince the judge.

    • Alan Smith

      I guess he could tell you himself.

    • Josh G

      Yes but notice he did not deny Rossi’s claim that IH offered him a deal for less money to cut the test short but keep the license agreement intact. Now why would they have done that?

    • Steve Savage

      If it looks like a shill, smells like a shill, talks like a shill ….. Chances are good, it is a shill

      • Ged

        He shall henceforth be known as Ecat Bob ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Saeed_al-Sahhaf reference for the young)

        • I find that last statement rather insulting.
          Please edit.

          • Ged

            History is important and vitally instructive; the same themes repeat with similar outcomes. I can’t change history on how that naming went, so don’t take it personlly :).

          • Dont take it personally If I tell you to cover your webcam and go have a shave.

        • Private Citizen

          Tax Rates Sweden:
          Corporate Tax Rate 22.00%
          Personal Income Tax Rate 57.00%
          Sales Tax Rate 25.00%
          Social Security Rate 38.42%
          Social Security Rate For Companies 31.42%
          Social Security Rate For Employees 7.00%

          Value-Added Tax
          Value added tax (VAT) 25%

          Profit Tax

          Profit tax (% of profit)
          13.%

          Labor tax and contributions (% of profit) 35.4%

          Other taxes (% of profit) 0.6Total tax rate (% of profit) 49.1%

          Cost of Electricity
          Cost (% of income per capita ) 33.5 % – exclusive of value added tax

          Minimum Wage:
          There is no minimum wage regulation by Swedish law

          Dealing with Unions:

          The level of union membership in Sweden is high at 71%

          • I thought we were taxed dry in the UK – but Swedish taxation makes street mugging look benign.

          • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

            Sweden is great, at least most of the money is used on citizens or public welfare – in Italy, corruption runs deep…
            http://www.heritage.org/index/visualize?cnts=italy|sweden&src=ranking

          • Fibber McGourlick

            Funny, all that government taxation and largess and yet Sweden is one of the best places in the world to live with one of the lowest crime rates and gun deaths.

          • Timar

            Adequate taxation in order to distribute wealth and enable social welfare, strict weapons and liberal penal laws go all hand in hand to enable such a society. It’s pretty much the opposite of the “Wild West” type of society the American right pursues.

          • cashmemorz

            Didn’t you know that USA is “west” of those European countries, and that the original people were “wild”? Americans are only living where the geography dictates and the original culture is continuing to this day. Natural logical progression.

          • Timar

            I see what you mean. I have to say, however, while I have great respect for American history, culture and its peculiar values I am still glad to live in an oppressive, authoritarian European country where I happily pay slighter higher tax rates and am not allowed to bear arms (not that I or most other European citizens would ever have felt a desire to do so) but in exchange don’t have to worry nearly as much about violence on the street or that I end up under the bridge when I lose my job, whether I would be able to affort treatment if I or a loved one becomes seriously ill, or whether I can affort university education for my children.

          • Engineer48

            Hey mate, those are fightin words,
            well maybe cold beer drinking world! 🙂

            Australia is very good.

            Don’t know a single person or family in Aussie that has a gun or feels they need one.

          • Well that’s really burst my bubble – I thought all Aussie men were clones of ‘Crocodile’ Dundee.

          • Engineer48

            BIG knives yes. Guns no. 😉

            Seriously I do not know anybody that has a gun or feels they need one to ensure their safety.

          • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

            Civilization. Sometimes exploited; but where it is honestly understood and appreciated, it makes everyone count; and better off.

          • DNI

            Some of your figures are incorrect:
            The personal Income Tax Rate is 32 % for most people in Sweden. 57 % is paid by less than 5 %.
            The total social security rate is 31,42 %. 38,4% is not correct.

            And you have the same taxes multiple times which is misleading:
            The sales Tax rate is the same as VAT.
            The profit taxes are the same as the taxes under Tax Rates Sweden.They are just calculated in a different way.

      • Engineer48

        A shrill called Weaver?

    • Ged

      Weaver has single handedly done more to damage IH’s case than anyone could. IH probably wishes he would not keep up his pace.

      • Stephen

        Thats what I find confusing too. Why is he there and why are they encouraging him?

        If they had a case and they were professional I would expect some statement like their initial one but then to suppress any leaks, It serves them no interest to waste time stirring up the LENR community in that case. They would want to limit publicity and resolve it through the courts normally.

        I can only think that they hope to disturb someone into releasing information they can make use of, or distract someone from other information, but if their case was as clear as they say that would not be necessary.

        Very confusing, and disturbing if it goes the way it looks.

    • Engineer48

      Weaver also claimed the 1MW reactor was in an adjacent warehouse unit and fed the heat to the customer through a hole in the common wall between the 2 units.

      As Rossi has provided many details of the space involved and stated on his blog that only 1 warehouse unit was involved, this would suggest Weaver either knowns nothing about what he writes or intentionally provided incorrect information.

      Either way why would anyone believe anything Weaver writes?

      Old saying, Give enough rope and any you will hang yourself.

  • Another interesting comment from IH related Weaver:

    I checked with Darden. Rossi is lying about the so-called buy-back offer and Sifferkoll continues to be his water boy (or is there something more vile in that bucket?). Rossi’s additional disclosures to Mats are very interesting and helpful. I hope he keeps up this pace and look forward to seeing what they can cook up next.

    https://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/index.php/Thread/3260-Why-did-IH-refuse-to-give-up-Rossi-s-license-and-IP-rights-for-all-the-money-bac/?postID=20200#post20200

    It becomes now even more interesting!

    • SG

      My guess: it was an oral offer, which was not accepted. I.H. can then claim it never happened, at least while not under oath (and even then, they could, with some risk attached). Now, if Mr. Rossi has evidence of a written offer, delivered to IH, then well, that would be interesting too. And, if Mr. Rossi is outright lying and IH, Mr. Darden, and Mr. Weaver are the boyscouts in this whole affair, then well, that would be just as interesting!

      • Axil Axil

        The buy back exercise would have informed Rossi that IH had developed nefarious motives that Rossi would be wise to protect himself against. This may have caused Rossi to begin his accumulation of evidence in anticipation to a legal fight at the end of the test. I would anticipate in such an hostile environment, Rossi was under the guidance of his lawyer from very early on in the test. The Rossi lawyer must have advised Rossi to record all conversations and transaction in preparation for the trial. This may be where the 18 books came from. This also may be why the IH personnel worked at arms length without Rossi’s help during the test. This is why Rossi made sure that IH workers did not see any new IP development that Rossi produced at the end of the year.

        • Engineer48

          Agree.

    • Josh G

      Yes but notice he did not deny Rossi’s claim that IH offered him a deal for less money to cut the test short but keep the license agreement intact. Now why would they have done that?

    • Steve Savage

      If it looks like a shill, smells like a shill, talks like a shill ….. Chances are good, it is a shill

      • Ged

        He shall henceforth be known as IH Bob ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Saeed_al-Sahhaf reference for the young)

        • I find that last statement rather insulting.

          • Ged

            History is important and vitally instructive; the same themes repeat with similar outcomes. I can’t change history on how that naming went, so don’t take it personlly :).

      • Engineer48

        A shrill called Weaver?

    • Ged

      Weaver has single handedly done more to damage IH’s case than anyone could. IH probably wishes he would not keep up his pace.

      • Stephen

        Thats what I find confusing too. Why is he there and why are they encouraging him?

        If they had a case and they were professional I would expect some statement like their initial one but then to suppress any leaks, It serves them no interest to waste time stirring up the LENR community in that case. They would want to limit publicity and resolve it through the courts normally.

        I can only think that they hope to disturb someone into releasing information they can make use of, or distract someone from other information, but if their case was as clear as they say that would not be necessary.

        Very confusing, and disturbing if it goes the way it looks.

    • Engineer48

      Weaver also claimed the 1MW reactor was in an adjacent warehouse unit and fed the heat to the customer through a hole in the common wall between the 2 units.

      As Rossi has provided many details of the space involved and stated on his blog that only 1 warehouse unit was involved, this would suggest Weaver either knowns nothing about what he writes or intentionally provided incorrect information.

      Either way why would anyone believe anything Weaver writes?

      Old saying, Give enough rope and any you will hang yourself.

  • Engineer48

    As far as I know, the 1MW plant 1 year monitoring contract details with the ERV have never been made public. All that is known publicly are the details of the 1st 24 hour test.

  • Gerard McEk

    Although the new information of Mats is quite interesting, it does not give us more sight on the law suit outcome. If e.g. AR has really offered to payback on return of license and he can prove that, then he has a strong case on IH’s refusal. But can he? Did he vid it? Was it on paper? So I am hoping he will be able to show and prove his QuarkX soon, that may be be more revealing than an endless suit case in short term and it may also help him to convince the judge.

  • Engineer48

    Suggest GE would love to be a sublicense of IH as they they would then have exclusive right to design in LENR thermal power plant boilers instead of using coal, oil or gas to all their thermal power plants.

    Plus GE can then sell LENR boiler upgrades to all its existing user base. Oh wait only to existing or new clients in the territories assigned to its licensor IH.

    • The phraseology would make sense if ‘the E-Cat reaction’ is taken to mean the whole system feeding the heat exchanger – i.e., the dT is the measurement made at the output and return connections at the heat exchanger to/from the attached equipment.

      ‘Fluid’ would therefore refer to coolant on the ‘customer’ side of the heat exchanger, and using this as the basis of measurement would obviate any complications due to phase changes. Rossi has been burned before by using steam measurements and I’m pretty sure he wouldn’t repeat the mistake. Ignoring thermal losses and deliberate rejection of any excess heat generated would also provide additional credibility to logged data.

      This information could then be simply correlated over whatever sampling periods were used, with metered electrical input to the E-Cat containers for the corresponding periods.

      • Engineer48

        Weaver made the output 100.1C statement which without knowing where of many points that number could be, if real, is yet to be determined.

        We know Weaver stated there were 2 warehouse units used, yet Rossi says only one and have given the floor space used, which fits into one warehouse unit. So it would seem what Weaver says may have reduced credibility or he only tells part of the story that benefits his spin.

        So please Mr. Weaver, where was the 100.1C measurement made?

        1) At the output of the 4 x 250kWt ECat LENR generators?

        2) At the input of the ECat side of the heat exchanger?

        3) At the output of the ECat side of the heat exchanger?

        4) At the input of the customer side of the heat exchanger?

        5) At the output of the customer side of the heat exchanger?

        Eager minds await your answer.

        • 100.1C is a ridiculously precise value for a parameter that must in fact be a variable. The temperature of steam output from the e-cats would in any case be unimportant if dT was measured at the ‘customer’ side of the heat exchanger.

          It seems to me that Weaver is just muddying the water by attempting to get people to focus on irrelevancies and disinformation.

          • DrD

            I agree. I think he has just used the >100C statement in the contract and added 0.1 to make it sound like an actual measured parameter.

          • Engineer48

            Yup. Just more Weaver hand waving like the BS about 2 warehouses.

  • Does anyone know whether the meeting of Bob Greenyer with me356 happened or is happening right now?

    Bob said he is targeting to visit me356 in the week of 16th of May, so this week.

    I simply hope that me356 could give Bob all the necessary informations (at best a pre-built reactor, just to plug into the wall socket) to replicate his findings at MFMP.

    This would finally end all this back and forth about Rossi and IH.
    I guess IH also has a very big interest in that me356 does not publish his findings, because it would disprove their claims against Rossi.

    • Alan Smith

      Bob is waiting to get a final appointment to travel.

      • Okay, so this week the meeting will not happen?

        • Alan Smith

          It all depends on ME356.

        • Bob Greenyer

          I am making myself available from Thursday. He knows this and I am waiting on an agreed convenient proposal from him.

          • Bob Greenyer

            Ok – me356 has just written to me to say he is not ready for me yet due to a little illness and other work commitments slowing him down. He is at pains to say that he stands by things he has said recently and will write to me with an update in due course. I, in turn, have said that I will make myself available to visit him from the this Thursday to the 30/5 and from the 7/6

            This does explain why he has gone quiet recently (other than because of all the harassing) and it is good that the communication line is still open.

            I will update immediately I know more.

          • @#[email protected])(#$(#&%$~)#$)!(%&

          • Omega Z

            THAT kind of Language will get you Banned LENR G
            🙂

          • Bob Greenyer

            Is that a sign of frustration!

            I feel your pain.

      • stakbitl

        Travel? Isn’t me356’s lab virtually next door?

        • Alan Smith

          I guess he could tell you himself.

      • Alan Smith

        Latest news suggests it won’t be happening this week.

  • georgehants

    Many seem to be assuming that the trial will be fair, in a capitalist society where money is a god above all else, pressure can be exerted to be sure the result favours the American economy.
    Justice may not be regarded as an important issue only profits.
    If Mr. Rossi wins and moves his production to somewhere more socially aware the US will lose a lot of “money” so I think it is quite possible that only the details of how he will lose his case are being worked out in the dark rooms of TPTB.

    • Josh G

      Thankfully he does not need to win before starting production in areas more socially aware.

    • Stephen Taylor

      Can someone please remind me who is Barry West? I know he and Fulvio Fabiani were the two IH representatives present at the test who reported daily to JT Vaugn but who is he? Who was he working with prior to the test? What are his relevant qualifications? In other words what does his bio look like and how did he get involved in this mess?

      • A mystery man. Apart from one photo, I don’t think that any of our sleuths have uncovered anything of note about him.

      • Stephen

        I’m quite curious about the timing in point 3.

        Was this before or after Rossi was awarded his patent?

        Was this before or after IH submitted their patent?

        Also how it timed with regard demonstrations to possible customers and investors.

        Interestingly we had very positive comments form Fabiani not long after this I think?

      • Stephen

        Yup me too.

        I’m also curious about the person in the IH patent. What was his role? did i read somewhere he was the chief engineer and if so why did Barry West and Fulvio Fabiani report directly to JT Vaughn?

        Also Fulvio Fabiani in his interview with Matts mentioned about 15 involved managers in IH i wonder what there roles were and if they were all working together or had split interests.

        • Obvious

          The “person in the IH patent” shows up in the IH Holdings International incorporation documents.

    • Omega Z

      Rossi asked for a jury trial. The outcome will be determined by a jury of 12 citizens. Not a Judge.
      As a Rule, Juries in the U.S. tend not to like Big Money entities. They will award $40 million to a person who spills their hot coffee in their lap while driving. Just ask McDonald’s.

  • georgehants

    Many seem to be assuming that the trial will be fair, in a capitalist society where money is a god above all else, pressure can be exerted to be sure the result favours the American economy.
    Justice may not be regarded as an important issue only profits.
    If Mr. Rossi wins and moves his production to somewhere more socially aware the US will lose a lot of “money” so I think it is quite possible that only the details of how he will lose his case (if genuine) are being worked out in the dark rooms of TPTB.
    ———-
    America’s Corrupt Legal System
    Rigged courts, bribed judges, phony trials, extortion by lawyers, and over 2 million prisoners in the USA gulag
    http://www.globalresearch.ca/america-s-corrupt-legal-system/885

    • Josh G

      Thankfully he does not need to win before starting production in areas more socially aware.

      • Varmlandstok

        Maybe that they can charge him for something and then use waterboarding to extract his secrets.

        • Josh G

          Ssshhhhhh! Don’t give them any ideas…

        • clovis ray

          That a good one, ha, ha,

    • Omega Z

      Rossi asked for a jury trial. The outcome will be determined by a jury of 12 citizens. Not a Judge.
      As a Rule, Juries in the U.S. tend not to like Big Money entities. They will award $40 million to a person who spills their hot coffee in their lap while driving. Just ask McDonald’s.

  • Stephen Taylor

    Can someone please remind me who is Barry West? I know he and Fulvio Fabiani were the two IH representatives present at the test who reported daily to JT Vaugn but who is he? Who was he working with prior to the test? What are his relevant qualifications? In other words what does his bio look like and how did he get involved in this mess?

  • DrD

    I think they use “fluid” to describe both the water and steam.
    The above quote from the contract does seem to be in conflict with Mat’s
    https://animpossibleinvention.com/2016/05/16/rossi-makes-offer-on-swedish-factory-building-plus-more-updates/
    where it says:
    “Rossi insisted that the energy corresponding to heating the inflowing
    cooled water (at about 60˚C) to boiling temperature would not be taken
    into account for calculating the thermal power produced by the MW plant.”
    AND
    “He also insisted that an arbitrary chosen 10 percent should be
    subtracted in the power calculation”
    I think the explanation is that the ERV complied with the above and measured say 60C for the 25 liters/min of recirculated water (fluid before) but assumed 100C for the COP calculation.
    As for the “fluid” temperature after (in this case “steam”): They may also have measured it and recorded say 100.1C. that is anything >100 simply to satisfy the contract requirement >100C.
    Then, once again, they possibly ignore any extra temperature (and pressure) increase.
    Therefore they have a very simple and very conservative value for the heat added to the “fluid” which is in fact only the latent heat.
    So the COP is very conservative but the calculation (and measurements) is very simple.

    • DrD

      Something seems very wrong.
      Taking the 36 cubic meters of water per day from Mat’s report and the suggestion that he ignored the “sensible heat used to warm it to boiling point means the thermal output was only 940W.
      That’s less than 1/1000 of the 1MW.
      Anyone wish to check my calculation.

  • Manuel Cruz

    The factory in Florida is obviously IH’s, with which they manufactured the plant used in the Lugano test.
    Does not have to be a robotic factory, and with the constant design changes during the year long test, it would have been a total waste of money.

  • Ged

    Huh? A lot of those are easy answers. The customer is JM Chemicals so that is why the name is there, but that is a front for whomever the real people are (common enough business practice) who wish to stay anonomous do to how bad the rep backlash could be still.

    People who haved worked on similar energy systems point out heat is no issue for that space. I calculated it myself, it’s really no big deal as long as there is a fan around for air circulation. Remember, your car vents well over a hundred kW of energy out a little pipe and nearly another hundred kW with a little fan and condensing without affecting you ( https://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/32832).

  • Stephen

    Are there any equipments that use 1MW hot water or steam that have similar dimension to point 5 above? 3m x 3m x 20m?

    It seems to me that there maybe possibilities, such as generators, ovens low temp chemical kilns, distilleries or processing equipment, hydrolic devices and machines, high pressure compression via heat exchanger or water or gas jet devices, or perhaps some combinations of these things. But I’m far from knowledgable about such devices power requirements.

    • US_Citizen71

      Commercial laundry washers and dryers would fit. Depending on heat recovery systems 600-1800lbs of laundry require the equivalent of 1MW/hr worth of heat to process (hot water and drying). The large washers hold approximately 900lbs per load and there are such a thing as steam heat powered dryers.

      • Stephen

        Yup its a good idea, but we would likely know about the laundry vans. on the other hand I think similar processes and equipment might be used to wash dry, compress, cut and pack other products might be possible for example.

        • US_Citizen71

          I’m not sure we would know about deliveries and pick-ups. No one checked the place out until after the test and drop-offs would likely be late day. I would assume pick-ups would occur at the same time, fewer trips.

          • Stephen

            fair point

    • wpj

      Is everyone forgetting Mats’ contact who saw the production through and open door and was told that it was sponge metal catalysts that they were making?

      • Stephen

        Maybe i am sorry if I did. Would that fit in equipment that size? For me I don’t see why not it seems typical size of industrial equipment.

        • wpj

          The height seems pretty low for a chemical reactor of the sort that they ought to be using, though they did say it was a scaled down version of the plant operation so that it required 1MW. The rest is fine; I have seen small industrial units with multiple reactors in there making extremely hazardous materials.

      • Zeddicus23

        Assuming there was an industrial process going on, I would guess that it would have to be endothermic. One highly endothermic process is the manufacture of sponge iron from coal, although I doubt that this was the process. There must be other highly endothermic processes. If the process were exothermic, then I would guess that much less heat would be needed, since the process itself would generate extra heat, so it makes sense that it’s either “neutral” or highly endothermic.

  • akupaku

    I like the idea of Rossi starting production in Sweden, he is likely to get better treatment there than in US, especially in case the conflict with IH is caused by powerful interests trying to stop or stall him because their business is threatened by his revolutionary inventions (assuming that he really has something real!).

    The sad thing is that he seems to lack financing now which is going to slow down mass production. If he can get first batches of Quark X’s to market and they perform as advertised, he will surely receive unlimited offers for increasing production. 500k units per year is certainly not going to flood the market and the Chinese will fast reverse engineer the Quark X and start making cheap copies en masse. Which would not be bad news at all, Rossi can still make a fortune and the world will be flooded with cheap LENR reactors.

    Would be interesting to see what havoc and collapse that would create with all traditional energy sources and power structures.

    • Private Citizen

      Tax Rates Sweden:
      Corporate Tax Rate 22.00%
      Personal Income Tax Rate 57.00%
      Sales Tax Rate 25.00%
      Social Security Rate 38.42%
      Social Security Rate For Companies 31.42%
      Social Security Rate For Employees 7.00%

      Value-Added Tax
      Value added tax (VAT) 25%

      Profit Tax
      Profit tax (% of profit) 13.%
      Labor tax and contributions (% of profit) 35.4%
      Other taxes (% of profit) 0.6
      Total tax rate (% of profit) 49.1%

      Cost of Electricity
      Cost (% of income per capita ) 33.5 % – exclusive of value added tax

      Minimum Wage:
      There is no minimum wage regulation by Swedish law

      Dealing with Unions:
      The level of union membership in Sweden is high at 71%

      • I thought we were taxed dry in the UK – but Swedish taxation makes street mugging look benign.

        • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

          Sweden is great, at least most of the money is used on citizens or public welfare – in Italy, corruption runs deep…
          http://www.heritage.org/index/visualize?cnts=italy|sweden&src=ranking

          • Fibber McGourlick

            Funny, all that government taxation and largess and yet Sweden is one of the best places in the world to live with one of the lowest crime rates and gun deaths.

          • Timar

            Adequate taxation in order to distribute wealth and enable social welfare, strict weapons and liberal penal laws go all hand in hand to enable such a society. It’s pretty much the opposite of the “Wild West” type of society the American right pursues.

          • cashmemorz

            Didn’t you know that USA is “west” of those European countries, and that the original people were “wild”? Americans are only living where the geography dictates and the original culture is continuing to this day. Natural logical progression.

            First immigrants came to the americas to get away from what was seen as oppressive religious practices. Search for freedom. Now they have freedom in aces, while europeans have adapted to the oppresive puritan practices that the original immigrants started.

          • Timar

            I see what you mean. I have to say, however, while I have great respect for American history, culture and its peculiar values I am still glad to live in an oppressive, authoritarian European country where I happily pay slighter higher tax rates and am not allowed to bear arms (not that I or most other European citizens would ever have felt a desire to do so) but in exchange don’t have to worry nearly as much about violence on the street or that I end up under the bridge when I lose my job, whether I would be able to affort treatment if I or a loved one becomes seriously ill, or whether I can affort university education for my children.

          • Engineer48

            Hey mate, those are fightin words,
            well maybe cold beer drinking world! 🙂

            Australia is very good.

            Don’t know a single person or family in Aussie that has a gun or feels they need one.

          • Well that’s really burst my bubble – I thought all Aussie men were clones of ‘Crocodile’ Dundee.

          • Engineer48

            BIG knives yes. Guns no. 😉

            Seriously I do not know anybody that has a gun or feels they need one to ensure their safety.

          • “Don’t know a single person or family in Aussie that has a gun or feels they need one.”

            Same for me in Canada

          • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

            Civilization. Sometimes exploited; but where it is honestly understood and appreciated, it makes everyone count; and better off.

      • akupaku

        I don’t think your numbers are realistic in real life. Most companies pay much less taxes due to clever tax planning. I agree individuals in Nordic countries pay very high income and other taxes but they also get a lot for their money:
        – free health care
        – free education: school and university
        – social security, Nordic countries are well known for high welfare for all citizens and are among the top countries in the world for high living standards
        – Sweden in special is known as “folkhemmet”, a Swedish word meaning “people’s home”.

        I know most multinationals pay near zero taxes in the Nordic countries or even in any EU country. If you are big enough you can always fiddle with the numbers.

        Well, anyway when you buy your home E-Cat you can rest easy that some of your money goes for the welfare of the Swedish people instead of the deep pockets of some big multinational monster, lol. ;o)

      • DNI

        Some of your figures are incorrect:
        The personal Income Tax Rate is 32 % for most people in Sweden. 57 % is paid by less than 5 %.
        The total social security rate is 31,42 %. 38,4% is not correct.

        And you have the same taxes multiple times which is misleading:
        The sales Tax rate is the same as VAT.
        The profit taxes are the same as the taxes under Tax Rates Sweden.They are just calculated in a different way.

        • Private Citizen

          I supplied links to every stat. You might have better sources.

          Didn’t know that VAT was the same as sales tax, thanks. Is social security included in the corporate and personal income tax, or paid on top of that?

          Certainly Rossi would end up in the highest tax bracket, if he receives compensation in the form of income. And he’ll even get negative interest rates if he deposits money in the
          Riksbank 🙂

          • DNI

            The social security tax is paid by the employer. It is 31,42% on the total salary (including personal income tax).

            The corporate tax is 22 % on the companies profit (after paying social security tax).

            The sales tax or VAT is deductible for companies. Hence it is only paid by persons. But maybe it’s the same every where?

            Yes, Rossi would end up in the highest bracket if he take is profit out in salay. But I don’t find that is very likely. It will probable be taken out in share dividend. Then he will get 22 % in corporate tax and 30 % tax on the share dividend. A total of 52 %.

          • DNI

            The social security tax is paid by the employer. It is 31,42% on the total salary (including personal income tax).

            The corporate tax is 22 % on the companies profit (after paying social security tax).

            The sales tax or VAT is deductible for companies. Hence it is only paid by persons. But maybe it’s the same every where?

            Yes, Rossi would end up in the highest bracket if he take is profit out in salay. But I don’t find that is very likely. It will probable be taken out in share dividend. Then he will get 22 % in corporate tax and 30 % tax on the share dividend. A total of 52 %.

      • akupaku

        Anyway, whatever the taxes are, Rossi might get something into his pocket in Sweden. It does not look like he is going to get anything in US except trouble from lawyers and courts.

    • Engineer48

      Akupaku wrote:
      “Would be interesting to see what havoc and collapse that would create with all traditional energy sources and power structures”

      With respect no it would not be interesting.
      It would be like saying let’s try an experiment where we destroy the grid and ALL go back to the stone age.

      People with money would buy totally off grid LENR power systems. reducing grid kWh income, forcing the less well off to shoulder and pay for the constant, of the kWhs flowing over the grid, upkeep cost. The less well off would ultimately not be able to pay for neither LENR generators nor the excessive grid costs. Imagine a future world where the well off had almost free LENR power and the less well off lived in candle lit caves with no electricity.

      This is not an experiment that any civilized society should ever run.

      • SG

        If COP is really 50, then there will be abundance for all. It might take awhile, but that will be the clear trajectory.

  • Jerry Soloman

    If you are interested in how Cherokee Fund/ Darden do business:
    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/30/nyregion/anatomy-of-a-deal-new-jersey-style.html?_r=0

    • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

      That’s great – we never learn, do we.

    • Also on March 9, Mr. Wisler wrote to Tom Darden, Cherokee’s chief executive, to discuss a donation to a local arts group. He added, “On another front, how are we doing with the contribution for Gov. McGreevey?” He concluded, “It is getting awkward.“”

      • SG

        Another revealing section:

        “There was more, especially in a trail of e-mail messages obtained by the plaintiffs — some of them retrieved by court order after they were
        deleted — that showed how the redeveloper, Cherokee Investment Partners, won the Pennsauken waterfront.”

        Deleted emails? Court order to retrieve them?

        • cashmemorz

          Very odd on this point. I opened Firefox browser, then E-Cat world dot com then the topic of

          “The Possible Political Impact Should LENR Emerge (Doug Marker)”

          and everthing worked fine.

          But when I clicked on this topic

          “Mat Lewan Meets Rossi in Sweden, Rossi Bidding on Factory For QuarkX Production”

          and as I reached the comment

          “Agaricus Jerry Soloman•an hour ago
          “Also on March 9, Mr. Wisler wrote to Tom Darden, Cherokee’s chief
          executive, to discuss a donation to a local arts group. He added, “On
          another front, how are we doing with the contribution for Gov.
          McGreevey?” He concluded, “It is getting awkward.”

          Firefox crashed.

          I restarted firefox browser went to the same site topic and comment and firefox crashed again this crash occurred four times in a row. So I rebooted and the crash occured at the same place. Then reset Firefox. This worked. No more crashes at this topic point. What is odd is that the crash occurred at the point where the comment containing such curiously suspicious facts. Is it a hack of some sort regarding that fact? I am using Ubuntu system. It is supposed to be more resistant or even immune to malware if you avoid dangerous sites. So was E-Cat world hacked?

          • US_Citizen71

            No issues on Chrome. Bad nightly build on FireFox?

          • cashmemorz

            NO I’m just paranoid when coincidenses such as this happen…..

  • Stephen

    I’m quite curious about the timing in point 3.

    Was this before or after Rossi was awarded his patent?

    Was this before or after IH submitted their patent?

    Also how it timed with regard demonstrations to possible customers and investors.

    Interestingly we had very positive comments form Fabiani not long after this I think?

  • Andrew

    Well the first part is a nobrainer. Im sure that any steam will be over 100C unless in a vacuum?

  • Timar

    Clever.

    I would do the exact same if I were a con artist who successfully scammed 11.5 million $ out of a gullible investor – spend half of that money on a factory building and the other half on a costly lawsuit that would inevitably uncover my fraud.

    I guess I wouldn’t make a good con artist. 🙁

    • Still need that sarcasm font.

  • Timar

    Clever.

    I would do the exact same if I were a con artist who successfully scammed 11.5 million $ out of a gullible investor – spend half of that money on a factory building and the other half on a costly lawsuit that would inevitably uncover my fraud.

    I guess I wouldn’t make a good con artist. 🙁

    • clovis ray

      Timar,
      some scam, when the scammer offers to give them the money back, for his ip, and was turned down. that won’t work, buddy, try again.

      • DFarwell

        Clovis…he was being sarcastic.

        • clovis ray

          so was i ,;)

    • Still need that sarcasm font.

  • I think that the entirety of the surplus of oil that has been reported could be difficult to account for if the experts really started looking.

  • Josh G

    Ssshhhhhh! Don’t give them any ideas…

  • Engineer48

    There are enough thermal power plant builders all over the world that can easily design in LENR boilers to existing their product offerings.

    What Rossi needs to do is to get their undivided attention and open checkbooks. Opening a factory, providing a commercially acceptable LENR reactor is all that is required.

    That will happen.

  • Engineer48

    Point is IH have pre agreed to the ERV report as the sole decided of the payment amount. So IH needs to PROVE the ERV report is false or they lose and must pay Rossi $89m plus costs plus jury awarded extras.

    Who is the customer is not an issue to the contract payment dispute.

    Negative outcome is IH goes bankrupt (which seem too common with Cherokee shell companies) and Rossi needs to attack Cherokee.

  • Engineer48

    So what happens next if Rossi wins Ih can’t pay and declares bankruptcy?

    Ok IH is out of business, yea says Rossi, but to be sure Cherokee will ensure IH has no capital to pay Rossi.

    As I see it, the Rossi complaint has identified Cherokee as the prime licensee and this should give Rossi the ability to go Cherokee for the total court awarded payment.

    Mght not be good to be a Cherokee investor.

  • Engineer48

    I really need to make another statement here as with respect unless you have personally dealt with Rossi, as I have, you have no basis for that you state and this comment is just your opinion, based on nothing.

  • Omega Z

    Darden offered Rossi a substantial sum to forget the 1MW test and walk away,
    with IH keeping their rights to the IP of course.

    Rossi counter offers to return the $11.5 million and rescind Darden’s IP rights.
    Thus Darden world be out nothing?

    How many %shares did Darden have to relinquish to Woodford.
    Woodford would be due a refund.
    —————————————————————
    Thoughts-

    I think Darden couldn’t come up with the full $89 million and short of that would still be in breach. And that Darden’s offer in mid test was an attempt to appease Rossi and keep the IP rights.

    I know many here think $89 million is peanuts, but this is a very controversial and unproven as yet technology. You don’t borrow money from a bank for this.

    Those who do invest should you convince them it may be real want a substantial percentage of shares in return for the risk. They also only invest a fraction of their wealth like Woodford. What was it, less then 1% of the trust fund.

    Would Darden and his initial core investors before Woodford and others came in end up with a tiny percent. Likely they wouldn’t want to settle for that.
    —————————————————————
    I think the E-cat works.

    I think this is very much about the money and the problem of trying to obtain it. The money spigots are only dripping. They are not yet open.

  • Omega Z

    Darden offered Rossi a substantial sum to forget the 1MW test and walk away,
    with IH keeping their rights to the IP of course.

    Rossi counter offers to return the $11.5 million and rescind Darden’s IP rights.
    Thus Darden world be out nothing?

    How many %shares did Darden have to relinquish to Woodford.
    Woodford would be due a refund.
    —————————————————————
    Thoughts-

    I think Darden couldn’t come up with the full $89 million and short of that would still be in breach. And that Darden’s offer in mid test was an attempt to appease Rossi and keep the IP rights.

    I know many here think $89 million is peanuts, but this is a very controversial and unproven as yet technology. You don’t borrow money from a bank for this.

    Those who do invest should you convince them it may be real want a substantial percentage of shares in return for the risk. They also only invest a fraction of their wealth like Woodford. What was it, less then 1% of the trust fund.

    Would Darden and his initial core investors before Woodford and others came in end up with a tiny percent. Likely they wouldn’t want to settle for that.
    —————————————————————
    I think the E-cat works.

    I think this is very much about the money and the problem of trying to obtain it. The money spigots are only dripping. They are not yet open.

    • Chapman

      I agree. I am still curious about the details of Darden’s personal dealings. Consider that Darden approached Rossi as the head of Cherokee. Every business card, every letterhead, even the little “Hi, I’m Tom” paper nametag identified him in his capacity representing Cherokee. Only at the signing of the contract did they switch to Industrial Heat, with a song and dance about compartmentalization.

      AND, we hear that Darden put up his own funds for the contract. It sounds to me like Darden was head-hunting for the next Cherokee investment opportunity, flying around on Cherokees dime, and came across Rossi – and got greedy. I think he screwed the Cherokee investors and decided to cut them out, and stole the deal for himself. He burnt his bridges by doing that and can’t get money from Cherokee. He bit off more than he could chew, and now can’t come up with the agreed upon payment. He is stalling for time, and looking for an angle upon which to base a renegotiated set of terms.

      Here’s a thought I have not seen anyone address. The contract stipulates that in the event of a default IH, Darden, all partners and sub licensees are prohibited from competing against Rossi or to engage in the LENR field for a period (i think it was two years). If IH defaults, Brillion is legally banned from the LENR marketplace for that time. In addition, Brillion will be unable to apply for patents that are in any way SIMILAR to Rossi’s work, because their research has been tainted by exposure to Rossi’s IP, for which they have no legal right or claim. This is similar to how many writers will not allow anyone to even MENTION a story idea around them. I could have a manuscript i have been secretly working on for five years, but if the waiter at Starbucks mouths off about a story idea he has about a guy who blah blah blah but it’s MY story – I’m screwed! I can’t publish without that guy being able to claim I stole the idea.

      IH is a scam. Yeah…
      Darden SUCKS. Sure…

      But Brillion is SCREWED!!!!! (HA!!! Couldn’t happen to a more deserving group of weasels)

  • Engineer48

    Rossi offered to sell my clients 10 x 1MW reactors to do a trial. They are engineers and no money would go Rossi way until the reactors passed tests set by very experienced thermal power plant steam generation engineers.

    So where is there advantage to Rossi to offer to sell non operational steam generators to engineers who live steam 24/7?

    What IH and Weaver says negative about Rossi and his 1MW ECat, to these guys are just corporate game playing BS.
    .

    • And why was the offer not accepted? (I assume)

      • Engineer48

        Not correct. Still talking. Sent an email to Rossi early today Aussie time.

        My potential clients may end up needing 2,500 x 1MW QuarkX 600C plants to drive 6 subcritical steam turbines with approx 750MWe total generation.

        So deals of this side take time to put in place.

        Did ask for a 1MW plant site visit for my potential clients. Is doable after a few signed documents.

        • Holy ****. That makes you and your peeps real live potential customers posting on E-Cat World.

          • Engineer48

            Frank is aware of my professional relationship with Rossi.

          • Well we would definitely like to hear the details of your ongoing interactions with Rossi, positive or negative.

          • Engineer48

            I do totally respect the confidentially of Leonardo and my potential clients. Like the IH heat customer Rossi found for IH (yes the customer is a IH heat customer that pays IH for the heat produced by the IH owned and installed 1MW plant), client requests for confidentiality are respected.

            What I share is not confidential info.

          • I appreciate that you felt the need to state that but I wasn’t asking for anything confidential. Just share with us what you can and we’ll be grateful.

            If the transaction proceeds you’ll be in a unique position to shed light on what’s real and what’s not.

          • Engineer48

            Look I do not know everything that is going on but I do know that 95% of the negative stuff said about Rossi and the 1MWt plant has no basis in fact. It is just conjecture / spin.

            But then factor in that I / my company may make a very nice profit on the initial sale and support of 10 x 1 MWt 105C min steam ECat reactors.

            BTW Rossi gave me the 105C steam temp as the min that my client should expect. Input water pressure and volume is defined by the 1MWt plant specs.

            Others can do the calcs and tell you what that means.

          • Ged

            I think LENR G is really interesting in knowing what your personal experience has been so far. That would be really cool to hear on, in so much as confidentiality allows, unless you have already told us all you can. Thank you for the insights you supply.

          • Engineer48

            My experience has been shared on this forum.

        • pg

          Australia would make plenty of sense. BHP or Rio etc. would make a killing being the firsts in their markets using the technology.
          Please keep us posted.

        • pg

          By the way I come to Melbourne twice a year, I would gladly grab a cup of coffee in August.

    • LuFong

      There is a lot of posturing going on by both sides. Kicking tires and making offers could be just part of this. I predict the civil suit will be settled out of court and this is part of this.

      On the other hand, this is good news but we’ve heard this kind of thing before many years ago and we still haven’t identified a single commercial customer or seen a 1MW plant in commercial operation. The one “customer” (IH bought the plant and sold heat) we do know about, IH, says the 1MW plant does not work. Whether that is true or not is TBD. Good luck though, don’t sign any NDAs, and keep us posted.

      • Stephen Taylor

        Yes, lots of hot air, some smoke now and then, no fire. We wait.

        • Dewey’s latest FWIW. If he truly conveys IH’s thoughts, then IH thinks it was all a scam with no real customer:
          https://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/index.php/Thread/3259-Mat-Lewan-Meets-Rossi-in-Sweden-Rossi-Bidding-on-Factory-For-QuarkX-Production/?postID=20350#post20350
          ————–
          “Rossi and his attorney/President of JM Products rep’d and warranted that JM Products was/is part of a UK-based company and that heat was needed for real work. We’ll see how effective they are in explaining that guarantee to the judge. Rossi had a key that allowed him to walk thru the door in the “customer” wall. He made IH and their visitors go around to the front door and would never allow a glimpse of anything outside of the front entrance, office areas and conference room. One interesting nugget – once IH advised Rossi that the 1MW container was going to be padlocked on inspection day, the IH engineer reminded Rossi that he should advise his “customer” of this state change. Rossi got out the key, walked right thru the “customer” door, came back shortly afterwards and said “not a problem” along with some additional conflicting comments (with letters to back them up) that are preserved for the courts.”

          • cashmemorz

            SO Rossi was in control of the plant logistics between supplier and user. Darden must have felt something was going on that was not “substantiated” to his personal satisfaction, ie. something going on behind Darden’s back.

          • One point of interest: this “padlock” final inspection meeting Dewey refer to would have taken place circa Feb 2016 after the Rossi/IH relationship had turned very sour. That alone could explain Rossi demanding arms length from IH, worried about sabotage or IH looking for details that they could use in court to confuse matters.

            That does not explain restricting access to the customer for the first few months of the test though, if that happened.

          • Engineer48

            IH sold the customer heat and got paid $1k per day. If they sold toilet paper instead would that give them rights to wander through a customer’s highly trade secret processing plant or learn the name of their UK parent? F##K NO!

            Why does that give IH any right to know the customer’s business and manufacturing process?

            Gotta tell you if a VC dropped into my office and asked to have a look around, with a few foreign looking mates in tow, I know where I would tell them to go. Please people get real.

          • Stephen Taylor

            Not the same thing. Good business relationships make sensible accommodations for each other.

          • builditnow

            That’s $350k for the year. One possibility is that IH thought that Rossi fronted the $350k to a fake company and no excess heat was produced.

            My guess is that Rossi has cleverly withheld his secret sauce from IH so that he has leverage with IH. IH on the other hand cannot make a working reactor with the information Rossi has given them so far, so, they can’t pay the $98 million. My memory is that IH stated they cannot make a working reactor (correct me if I got that wrong). Both sides could benefit from a court case to firm up the contract or draw up a new one and have it approved by US federal court.

            If I was Rossi and had been burned as an inventor several times, I could consider cleverly withholding the secret sauce as leverage to level the playing field. Rossi with a few million VS a 2 Billion dollar fund and only a contract on Rossi’s side if he gives all his secrets away. Keeping some important secrets could act to bring balance to the relationship.

          • sam

            But if you are the one paying out 100 million
            would you not want to see the production at least
            once.Was there no trust in the partnership

          • Engineer48

            Darden is a VC.
            IH supplies heat to the customer and the customer pays for it.

            Neither gives Darden any rights to walk into a restricted production area of the customer, that he has no business being in.

          • Engineer48

            Ever seen what happens after a few Brits tell the Aliens that built all the world’s tech to “Piss Off, We Don’t Need You” and they did?

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yyxaT8M15Q

          • SG

            So wait, others (besides Rossi) captured “glimpses” of the processes occurring at the customer’s location, but never anybody from IH? Doesn’t ring very true.

          • Ged

            It’s like when he was claiming no IH people were allowed in the site, and then had to backtrack to claim no “trusted” IH employees were allowed in (no one has control of that but IH; also means he had lied in his first version of the claim), while people like Darden waltzed through at times. Remember when he claimed the customer was in another warehouse and not in the same one as the 1MW plant, but then photo evidence and leasing/physical records showed that was not true?

            Spin and misdirection if not outright lies from the guy. That’s why his story gets more convoluted and completely divorced from rationality as time goes. Also makes IH into utterly incompetent fools in his ever changing version of reality.

            Originally I was strongly leaning to support IH when this all came out. But this guy’s FUD (with a supporting role by Jed) have made me very strongly lean away from IH. Nothing Rossi has said has changed my opinions, it’s been all this guy and the blatantly incoherent attempts to manipulate the narrative. Hopefully IH publishes a real defense soon so this can stop.

          • Engineer48

            Rossi found the customer and as he claims, has sold them 3 more 1MWt plants. So Rossi and they did have a longer term interest to do this dance together.

            Why would the customer want anybody to know they have just dropped their cost of production against their competition?

            Is there anybody here that doesn’t understands industrial trade secrets and competition?

          • SG

            I’m not disagreeing with you; in fact, I agree with you, and yes, I do happen to understand industrial trade secrets very well.

            My point was that Mats has mentioned that others have caught glimpses of the customer’s production, and even commented as to the nature of the products being produced. But IH was never allowed? What Mr. Weaver has allegedly asserted seems fishy to me.

          • Engineer48

            IH sat in the office of Rossi’s lawyer and talked to the customer, who then signed a heat purchase agreement with IH.

            IH then had an obligation to deliver the heat and the customer had an obligation to pay for the heat.

            Neither party had any more rights to engage in knowing more about each others business.

            People this is business and the customer has every right to control who does and does not have access to their production area.

          • DNI

            The social security tax is paid by the employer. It is 31,42% on the total salary (including personal income tax).

            The corporate tax is 22 % on the companies profit (after paying social security tax).

            The sales tax or VAT is deductible for companies. Hence it is only paid by persons. But maybe it’s the same every where?

            Yes, Rossi would end up in the highest bracket if he take is profit out in salay. But I don’t find that is very likely. It will probable be taken out in share dividend. Then he will get 22 % in corporate tax and 30 % tax on the share dividend. A total of 52 %.

          • Stephen Taylor

            Well, if there are all these working cold fusion reactors being sold and utilised surely we will get to see one before long. How long has it been now?

          • Engineer48

            Stephen Taylor wrote:
            “Well, if there are all these working cold fusion reactors being sold and utilised surely we will get to see one before long. How long has it been now?”

            Do you understand that after years of effort Rossi finally convinced the USTPO to give him patent protection?

            Why would he go public with a product that had NO IP protection?

            If you want to blame someone for delaying LENR, look to the US gov.

            Even now Nature will not publish any LENR papers, despite many other journals starting to thaw and doing LENR paper publishing and there is no official US gov money available for LENR research, least the “Hot Fusion In 20 Years” guys get really upset.

            The Hot Fusion guys at MIT had a party (really did happen) when MIT announced their P&F replication had failed. But as we know know it did not really fail and someone at MIT fudged the data to make it look like it failed.

          • Stephen Taylor

            For the record I agree enthusiastically with your post here.

          • Warthog

            “If you want to blame someone for delaying LENR, look to the US gov.”

            Well, yes and no. You have to keep in mind the incestuous relationship between the “high-energy physics” types, and management of advanced R&D by the FedGov that came about as a result of the development of the A-bomb during WWII.

            The “second-rate” physicists migrated into research management, first at places like LLNL, Hanford, Los Alamos, and others, and then moved up the promotion chain into overall R&D in the higher levels of government research oversight. And they oversaw the hiring of students from the research groups of their old physics profs.

            That “ownership” of government R&D by physicists is now fading with the onset of the “eco” movement, but there is still a significant residue.

          • saying US governement is a bit too much (moreover US gov is not coherent , not a person).

            Who failed miserably is first academic system, corrupted by high energy physics money (hot fusion, particle physics, nuclear energy, bombs) and sanctified by Manhattan project.
            As JP Biberian explained (RNBE2016) in science there is a hierarchy.
            at the top is high energy physics, then theoretical physics, then material physics, then chemistry, then electrochemistry biochemistry, biology, zoology…

            except the particle physicist at the top, maybe because of manhattan project and big science projects (big accelerators, hot fusion, bombs), the hierarchy is simply from the most theoretical to the most experimental and phenomenological. That is the problem, and this prevent science to discover new things without a theory, while helping to exploit known theory.

            then the high impact journal, who follows the academic lords, failed miserably, but like parrots.
            Experts also failed miserably, following the groupthink.

            Similarly scientific journalism, and journalism failed miserably.
            then politicians influenced by academic, by journalists, by experts, failed miserably but less than expected.

            then all the scientific communities in Western world, the journalist and politicians mostly failed miserably.

            Finally the few who did not fail miserably, at least not fully are :
            – the militaries in US who still work on it
            – industrialist who tried but found it was not ready for them to work on, and who were afraid of academic bad mouth
            – free of “academics” scientists (retired, hidden in national labs, private labs, VC funded lab, hobbyists)
            – Asian science and industry, provided they are discrete

          • Warthog

            Heh. As a chemist (and an analytical chemist at that), I am well aware of the snobbery of physicists.

            And you are correct that there “is” such a hierarchy in academia. But without the cross-connection into the funding bureaucracy of the FedGov, they would have not been able to stifle LENR research nearly as thoroughly as has happened. It takes money to do sophisticated research.

          • Ged

            Yet the “customer” was paying IH for the heat; that is, as Engineer48 aptly pointed out, the “customer” is IH’s not Rossi’s customer. So, IH was making money off these folks and would at least know the payment details that had to be signed and set up.

            AKA, there goes Dewey again, damaging IH’s case with all the spin and misdirection. He has set them up for criminal prosecution at this rate.

          • Engineer48

            Why do you listen to Weaver?
            His only intent appears to be saving IH from paying Rossi $89m by spreading spin?
            Have you ever seen him?
            Maybe just a dog on a keyboard?

          • I’m an information omnivore.

            Posted not as act of support, but to share relevant information with others.

    • pg

      Is the deal still ongoing?

      • Engineer48

        Yes

        • pg

          Ok, could you elaborate any further?

          • Engineer48

            Read below a bit.

        • Stephen Taylor

          I also hope you can substantiate this rather large proposed offer to commercialise Rossi’s supposed technology.

          • Engineer48

            750MWe generation at 33% conversion efficiency. Need 2,250MWt of 550C subcritical steam. What is so big? This is NOTHING. Just one small thermal power plant.

            Rossi told me 600C steam was not yet available.
            I countered with they are interested in 10 MWt low temp steam (~105C) plant as a learner installation until 600C steam is available.
            Rossi said OK can do.
            6 months delivery.
            Purchase price in escrow until plant passed mutually acceptable performance specs.
            Can arrange visit to working 1MW plant after acceptable MOU executed.

            Where is the scam or con? Only in what anti Rossi spin merchants wish to make you believe for their clients benefit.

          • Stephen Taylor

            If Rossi has mastered the art of LENR or even begun to make a big step toward doing so, then he should FINALLY get one of the experts on LENR calorimetry and Peter H. from MIT together and show them something. My patience with hot air and imaginary smoke is expired.

          • Engineer48

            Why would Rossi open up, show and tell for those that can’t do what he does?

            As Rossi has said many times, he is only interested in the final performance tests of his clients.

          • Stephen Taylor

            Well, at the moment, I just think he should give a care for his credibility.

          • Chapman

            Why in the name of GOD should Rossi care a rat’s ass about the opinions of your so-called “experts on LENR calorimetry”?

            And more to the point, WHO is the expert on LENR, the guy who can build them, or some pinhead who thinks he is an expert with a thermometer?

            Can your experts build a LENR reactor? If not, they are no kind of expert ON LENR. Period. They are out of their depth. If they understood LENR enough to declare themselves Expert LENR Evaluators, they would damn well be the ones filing patents and buying factory space.

          • Stephen Taylor

            I feel and share your pain. Pain is nothing new in this endeavor. Those who can do. Some fake it and others just talk. Mea culpa on all counts at one time or another. Mostly I hope Dr. Rossi is well.

            I do hope you are up to speed on the real science that is happening all over the globe much of which you may well take issue with. Peace, human.

  • Engineer48

    Rossi offered to sell my clients 10 x 1MW reactors to do a trial. They are engineers and no money would go Rossi way until the reactors passed tests set by very experienced thermal power plant steam generation engineers.

    So where is there advantage to Rossi to offer to sell non operational steam generators to engineers who live steam 24/7?

    What IH and Weaver says negative about Rossi and his 1MW ECat, to these guys are just corporate game playing BS.
    .

    • And why was the offer not accepted? (I assume)

      • Engineer48

        Not correct. Still talking. Sent an email to Rossi early today Aussie time.

        My potential clients may end up needing 2,500 x 1MW QuarkX 600C plants to drive 6 subcritical steam turbines with approx 750MWe total generation.

        So deals of this side take time to put in place. Probably a few $million in engineering design costs plus a lot more in metal work to replace all the coal dust burners.

        Did ask for a 1MW plant site visit for my potential clients. Was told it is doable after a few signed documents.

        • Holy ****. That makes you and your peeps real live potential customers posting on E-Cat World.

          • Engineer48

            Frank is aware of my professional relationship with Rossi.

          • Well we would definitely like to hear the details of your ongoing interactions with Rossi, positive or negative.

          • Engineer48

            I do totally respect the confidentially of Leonardo and my potential clients. Like the IH heat customer Rossi found for IH (yes the customer is an IH heat customer that pays IH for the heat produced by the IH owned and installed 1MW plant), client requests for confidentiality are respected.

            What I share is not confidential info.

            Let me restate the above so it is VERY CLEAR.

            The “customer” is an IH heat customer that pays IH for the heat produced by the IH owned and installed 1MW plant. IH met the customer in the office of Rossi’s lawyer and signed the heat buy contract with the customer.

          • I appreciate that you felt the need to state that but I wasn’t asking for anything confidential. Just share with us what you can and we’ll be grateful.

            If the transaction proceeds you’ll be in a unique position to shed light on what’s real and what’s not.

          • Engineer48

            Look I do not know everything that is going on but I do know that 95% of the negative stuff said about Rossi and the 1MWt plant has no basis in fact. It is just conjecture / spin.

            But then factor in that I / my company may make a very nice profit on the initial sale and support of 10 x 1 MWt 105C min steam ECat reactors.

            BTW Rossi gave me the 105C steam temp as the min that my client should expect. Input water pressure and volume is defined by the 1MWt plant specs.

            Others can do the calcs and tell you what that means.

          • Ged

            I think LENR G is really interesting in knowing what your personal experience with Rossi has been so far for the projects you are working on (rather than the IH affair). That would be really cool to hear on, in so much as confidentiality allows, unless you have already told us all you can. Thank you for the insights you supply.

          • Engineer48

            My experience has been shared on this forum.

        • pg

          Australia would make plenty of sense. BHP or Rio etc. would make a killing being the firsts in their markets using the technology.
          Please keep us posted.

        • pg

          By the way I come to Melbourne twice a year, I would gladly grab a cup of coffee in August.

    • pg

      Is the deal still ongoing?

      • Engineer48

        Yes

        • pg

          Ok, could you elaborate any further?

          • Engineer48

            Read below a bit.

        • Stephen Taylor

          I also hope you can substantiate this rather large proposed offer to commercialise Rossi’s supposed technology.

          • Engineer48

            750MWe generation at 33% conversion efficiency. Need 2,250MWt of 550C subcritical steam. What is so big? This is NOTHING. Just one small thermal power plant.

            Rossi told me 600C steam was not yet available.
            I countered with they are interested in 10 MWt low temp steam (~105C) plant as a learner installation until 600C steam is available.
            Rossi said OK can do.
            6 months delivery.
            Purchase price in escrow until plant passed mutually acceptable performance specs.
            Can arrange visit to working 1MW plant after acceptable MOU executed.

            Where is the scam or con? Only in what anti Rossi spin merchants wish to make you believe for their clients benefit.

          • Stephen Taylor

            If Rossi has mastered the art of LENR or even begun to make a big step toward doing so, then he should FINALLY get one of the experts on LENR calorimetry and Peter H. from MIT together and show them something. My patience with hot air and imaginary smoke is expired.

          • Engineer48

            Why would Rossi open up, show and tell for those that can’t do what he does?

            As Rossi has said many times, he is only interested in the final performance tests of his clients.

          • Stephen Taylor

            Well, at the moment, I just think he should give a care for his credibility.

          • Chapman

            Why in the name of GOD should Rossi care a rat’s ass about the opinions of your so-called “experts on LENR calorimetry”?

            And more to the point, WHO is the expert on LENR, the guy who can build them, or some pinhead who thinks he is an expert with a thermometer?

            Can your experts build a LENR reactor? If not, they are no kind of expert ON LENR. Period. They are out of their depth. If they understood LENR enough to declare themselves Expert LENR Evaluators, they would damn well be the ones filing patents and buying factory space.

          • Stephen Taylor

            I feel and share your pain. Pain is nothing new in this endeavor. Those who can do. Some fake it and others just talk. Mea culpa on all counts at one time or another. Mostly I hope Dr. Rossi is well.

            I do hope you are up to speed on the real science that is happening all over the globe much of which you may well take issue with. Peace, human.

          • Michael W Wolf

            Yea, well my patience with hot fusion and libelous back slaps has expired. MIT should not be allowed anywhere near LENR tech. ever. They are liars. but you want lenr in their hands? Rossi has not mastered Lenr, that is what F8 is.

          • Mike

            105C steam… and the pressure is?

  • Dewey’s latest FWIW. If he truly conveys IH’s thoughts, then IH thinks it was all a scam with no real customer:
    https://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/index.php/Thread/3259-Mat-Lewan-Meets-Rossi-in-Sweden-Rossi-Bidding-on-Factory-For-QuarkX-Production/?postID=20350#post20350
    ————–
    “Rossi and his attorney/President of JM Products rep’d and warranted that JM Products was/is part of a UK-based company and that heat was needed for real work. We’ll see how effective they are in explaining that guarantee to the judge. Rossi had a key that allowed him to walk thru the door in the “customer” wall. He made IH and their visitors go around to the front door and would never allow a glimpse of anything outside of the front entrance, office areas and conference room. One interesting nugget – once IH advised Rossi that the 1MW container was going to be padlocked on inspection day, the IH engineer reminded Rossi that he should advise his “customer” of this state change. Rossi got out the key, walked right thru the “customer” door, came back shortly afterwards and said “not a problem” along with some additional conflicting comments (with letters to back them up) that are preserved for the courts.”

    • cashmemorz

      SO Rossi was in control of the plant logistics between supplier and user. Darden must have felt something was going on that was not “substantiated” to his personal satisfaction, ie. something going on behind Darden’s back.

      • One point of interest: this “padlock” final inspection meeting Dewey refers to would have taken place circa Feb 2016 after the Rossi/IH relationship had turned very sour. That alone could explain Rossi demanding arms length from IH, worried about sabotage or IH looking for details that they could use in court to confuse matters.

        That does not explain restricting access to the customer for the first few months of the test though, if that happened.

        EDIT: continuing this thought… Rossi at some point actually comes to view IH as a competitor, with them pawning off his IP to others and telegraphing that they will never pay him by trying to buy him out early. Why would he let a potential competitor try to steal one of his customers. He wouldn’t. Hands off. They don’t need to know any more about them than they already do. Rossi probably already had a verbal agreement from the customer to proceed with more plants after the 1 year test. They were reportedly quite happy with the cheap steam they got. He wants the $89 M but not at the expense of jeopardizing his main avenue to progress.

      • Engineer48

        IH sold the customer heat and got paid $1k per day. If they sold toilet paper instead would that give them rights to wander through a customer’s highly trade secret processing plant or learn the name of their UK parent? F##K NO!

        Why does that give IH any right to know the customer’s business and manufacturing process?

        Gotta tell you if a VC dropped into my office and asked to have a look around, with a few foreign looking mates in tow, I know where I would tell them to go. Please people get real.

        • Stephen Taylor

          Not the same thing. Good business relationships make sensible accommodations for each other.

        • DFarwell

          Yet oddly Mats speaks of people getting a glimpse….

        • builditnow

          That’s $350k for the year. One possibility is that IH thought that Rossi fronted the $350k to a fake company and no excess heat was produced.

          My guess is that Rossi has cleverly withheld his secret sauce from IH so that he has leverage with IH. IH on the other hand cannot make a working reactor with the information Rossi has given them so far, so, they can’t pay the $98 million. My memory is that IH stated they cannot make a working reactor (correct me if I got that wrong). Both sides could benefit from a court case to firm up the contract or draw up a new one and have it approved by US federal court.

          If I was Rossi and had been burned as an inventor several times, I could consider cleverly withholding the secret sauce as leverage to level the playing field. Rossi with a few million VS a 2 Billion dollar fund and only a contract on Rossi’s side if he gives all his secrets away. Keeping some important secrets could act to bring balance to the relationship.

          • Chapman

            They never said they had not, or could not, build a functioning reactor. That is what Weaver and Jed and other supposed “persons with contact” passed on. IH has only used ambiguous terms like “could not corroborate his claims”. Likely meaning that while they were able to produce several reactors which successfully demonstrated a COP of between 3 and 6, which used to be the standard, the >50 number from the year long test demonstrates a level of function beyond their experience.

            This is probably at the heart of their claim that he did not share all the IP. Unfortunately, the higher COP, and much more, are the product of current development and research after the IP transfer.

            All these new discoveries would be available to them, as license holders, when development was completed, Patents secured, and the product was presented to his partners/licensees for marketing. Rossi certainly was not going to surrender unprotected research materials to IH after IH delivered his IP to his direct competitors, and also filed for NEW patents based on the existing patented IP. This action alone on IH’s part made it absolutely impossible for Rossi to trust them by giving them even the slightest peek at his research-in-progress.

            I see several people speaking about Rossi’s lack of trust and his supposed “Paranoia”. So tell me. Was he hallucinating when he read that IH had partnered with brillouin and had given away his trade secrets? Was Rossi delusional the day he read a published patent application that was filed by IH, trying to patent HIS tech – even citing HIMSELF as inventor – but being secured to IH? Was Rossi just hand wringing over the sense of deja-vu he was getting comparing the IH crap to what was done to him in Italy?

            Give the guy a break. He has been through hell like none of us can imagine. He was a pioneer in TDP, and wanted to “save the world”, but he was destroyed by the Mob and by special interests that had no desire for solutions. He has been beaten, mocked, insulted, swindled, demonized and imprisoned – all unjustly. And you want to suggest he has trust issues? A fool burns up in bed convinced he is safe from fire – a wise man smells smoke and runs.

            Rossi knows exactly what he is doing. He is happy to share his insights and news with US, just for the sake of camaraderie and common scientific interest. But he has no reason at all to lose sleep over your opinions…

            Rossi was not “Burned” as you say. That makes it sound like he got swindled on a used car deal. He was unjustly vilified as a national criminal polluter, stripped of his assets and IMPRISONED!!!

            If you do not really understand what he has been through – what has been done to him – you do not understand HIM, and have no business passing judgement or making silly declarations about “what he should do”.

          • Michael W Wolf

            IH said they could not in a PR statement. Which is meaningless. Under oath in a patent, IH said they built and tested a reactor with a COP of 11. So if IH can’t really build a reactor that works, why did they lie in their patent? IH is caught lying. Rossi is suing. Occam’s razor.

        • sam

          But if you are the one paying out 100 million
          would you not want to see the production at least
          once.Was there no trust in the partnership

      • Engineer48

        Darden is a VC.
        IH supplies heat to the customer and the customer pays for it.

        Neither gives Darden any rights to walk into a restricted production area of the customer, that he has no business being in.

      • Michael W Wolf

        Darden is a salesman. Fabiani of IH is the one you should be talking about. Darden is incapable of analysis. Why don’t you ask Darden what Fabiani told him? While you have your eye on Rossi, Darden performs the trick. Not Rossi.

    • SG

      So wait, others (besides Rossi) captured “glimpses” of the processes occurring at the customer’s location, but never anybody from IH? Doesn’t ring very true.

      • Ged

        It’s like when he was claiming no IH people were allowed in the site, and then had to backtrack to claim no “trusted” IH employees were allowed in (no one has control of that but IH as they choose who are their employees and they own the plant; also means he had lied in his first version of the claim), while people like Darden waltzed through at times. Remember when he claimed the customer was in another warehouse and not in the same one as the 1MW plant, but then photo evidence and leasing/physical records showed that was not true?

        Spin and misdirection if not outright lies from the guy. That’s why his story gets more convoluted and completely divorced from rationality as time goes. Also makes IH into utterly incompetent fools in his ever changing version of reality.

        Originally I was strongly leaning to support IH when this all came out. But this guy’s FUD (with a supporting role by Jed) have made me very strongly lean away from IH. Nothing Rossi has said has changed my opinions, it’s been all this guy and the blatantly incoherent attempts to manipulate the narrative. Hopefully IH publishes a real defense soon so this can stop.

      • Engineer48

        Rossi found the customer and as he claims, has sold them 3 more 1MWt plants. So Rossi and they did have a longer term interest to do this dance together.

        Why would the customer want anybody to know they have just dropped their cost of production against their competition?

        Is there anybody here that doesn’t understands industrial trade secrets and competition?

        • SG

          I’m not disagreeing with you; in fact, I agree with you, and yes, I do happen to understand industrial trade secrets very well.

          My point was that Mats has mentioned that others have caught glimpses of the customer’s production, and even commented as to the nature of the products being produced. But IH was never allowed? What Mr. Weaver has allegedly asserted seems fishy to me.

          • Engineer48

            IH sat in the office of Rossi’s lawyer and talked to the customer, who then signed a heat purchase agreement with IH.

            IH then had an obligation to deliver the heat and the customer had an obligation to pay for the heat.

            Neither party had any more rights to engage in knowing more about each others business.

            People this is business and the customer has every right to control who does and does not have access to their production area.

          • Robert Dorr

            I can’t understand why people insist that “any” product had to be made with the energy produced. It just doesn’t make any difference. They could have flushed the steam down the sewer. The result would still be the same. Heat is heat.

          • If there is a real thrid party producer this is a very good calorimetry test.
            Industrial process are optimized, and just counting the number of piece produced is an indication of heat consumed.

            it eliminate many source of error and frauds.

            it is like allowing people to touch at the factory, to install their own meters on the device.
            It show that the inventor is not afraid to be tested.

            I was quite positive until recently because :
            – I imagines IH installed the meters, as the prducer, and LC
            – I imagined the client was an industrialist with products to produce
            – I imagined that all was clear for the people of IH, the prducer and LC
            – I imagined Penon was very serious guy with a good backlog (he have a good CV)

            today all is to be reconsidered, not even sure to be bad.

            Many reported behaviors of Rossi are raising red flag.

            today the only godo test seems Ferarra , with fair calibration, and some freedom to check many things.

            Lugano is broken, and only reason to believe it may have worked is that Rossi was not there during the full test.

            1MW test, from the lack of data and the few leaks is without any merit. It can change.

            If I was Dewey I would bet on Brillouin, on IH researshers (Miley,Letts, McKubre…), and on basic researsh like LENRG projects, or japanese NEDO programs

          • Robert Dorr

            Other than the fact that I.H wasn’t allowed to see what was being produced, nothing you said above has changed from what we have known. You’re letting people like Dewey Weaver get to you. If you understand the science then making something with the heat produced is just simply for show, nothing more.

        • Stephen Taylor

          Well, if there are all these working cold fusion reactors being sold and utilised surely we will get to see one before long. How long has it been now?

          • Engineer48

            Stephen Taylor wrote:
            “Well, if there are all these working cold fusion reactors being sold and utilised surely we will get to see one before long. How long has it been now?”

            Do you understand that after years of effort Rossi finally convinced the USTPO to give him patent protection?

            Why would he go public with a product that had NO IP protection?

            If you want to blame someone for delaying LENR, look to the US gov.

            Even now Nature will not publish any LENR papers, despite many other journals starting to thaw and doing LENR paper publishing and there is no official US gov money available for LENR research, least the “Hot Fusion In 20 Years” guys get really upset.

            The Hot Fusion guys at MIT had a party (really did happen) when MIT announced their P&F replication had failed. But as we know know it did not really fail and someone at MIT fudged the data to make it look like it failed.

            After those 1989 Dirty Tricks, Dr. Eugene Mallove at MIT resigned because of the fudged MT data against P&F.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6y98YwJ2GEE

            He got very active against MIT and was a very strong supporter of LENR. A few years later he was murdered outside his house.

            That was “Dirty Tricks 1989”. You think now in 2016 that the the “Dirty Tricks” against LENR have stopped?

          • Stephen Taylor

            For the record I agree enthusiastically with most of your post here. Surely you don’t suggest that Gene Mallove’s murder had anything to do with cold fusion. He was cleaning out a rental house belonging to his parents. The tenants had been evicted. One of the people evicted was involved in the terrible wasted life of a wonderful human.
            Conspiracy theories seldom ring true with me. Mostly life is far too dramatic in its true iteration and doesn’t need to be embellished with dream like imaginations. Use your head.

          • Warthog

            “If you want to blame someone for delaying LENR, look to the US gov.”

            Well, yes and no. You have to keep in mind the incestuous relationship between the “high-energy physics” types, and management of advanced R&D by the FedGov that came about as a result of the development of the A-bomb during WWII.

            The “second-rate” physicists migrated into research management, first at places like LLNL, Hanford, Los Alamos, and others, and then moved up the promotion chain into overall R&D in the higher levels of government research oversight. And they oversaw the hiring of students from the research groups of their old physics profs.

            That “ownership” of government R&D by physicists is now fading with the onset of the “eco” movement, but there is still a significant residue.

          • saying US governement is a bit too much (moreover US gov is not coherent , not a person).

            Who failed miserably is first academic system, corrupted by high energy physics money (hot fusion, particle physics, nuclear energy, bombs) and sanctified by Manhattan project.
            As JP Biberian explained (RNBE2016) in science there is a hierarchy.
            at the top is high energy physics, then theoretical physics, then material physics, then chemistry, then electrochemistry biochemistry, biology, zoology…

            except the particle physicist at the top, maybe because of manhattan project and big science projects (big accelerators, hot fusion, bombs), the hierarchy is simply from the most theoretical to the most experimental and phenomenological. That is the problem, and this prevent science to discover new things without a theory, while helping to exploit known theory.

            then the high impact journal, who follows the academic lords, failed miserably, but like parrots.
            Experts also failed miserably, following the groupthink.

            Similarly scientific journalism, and journalism failed miserably.
            then politicians influenced by academic, by journalists, by experts, failed miserably but less than expected.

            then all the scientific communities in Western world, the journalist and politicians mostly failed miserably.

            Finally the few who did not fail miserably, at least not fully are :
            – the militaries in US who still work on it
            – industrialist who tried but found it was not ready for them to work on, and who were afraid of academic bad mouth
            – free of “academics” scientists (retired, hidden in national labs, private labs, VC funded lab, hobbyists)
            – Asian science and industry, provided they are discrete

          • Warthog

            Heh. As a chemist (and an analytical chemist at that), I am well aware of the snobbery of physicists.

            And you are correct that there “is” such a hierarchy in academia. But without the cross-connection into the funding bureaucracy of the FedGov, they would have not been able to stifle LENR research nearly as thoroughly as has happened. It takes money to do sophisticated research.

    • Ged

      Yet the “customer” was paying IH for the heat; that is, as Engineer48 aptly pointed out, the “customer” is IH’s not Rossi’s customer. So, IH was making money off these folks and would at least know the payment details that had to be signed and set up.

      AKA, there goes Dewey again, damaging IH’s case with all the spin and misdirection. He has set them up for criminal prosecution at this rate with regards to the investors they pulled in with all this stuff.

    • Engineer48

      Why do you listen to Weaver?
      His only intent appears to be saving IH from paying Rossi $89m by spreading spin?
      Have you ever seen him?
      Maybe just a dog on a keyboard?

      • I’m an information omnivore.

        Posted not as act of support, but to share relevant information with others.

  • Engineer48
    • Bushnell is a known LENR supporter. Has been for quite some time.

      • Engineer48

        WATCH the whole video:
        https://youtu.be/QxBJjWzlKl0

        There are very senior very respected researchers of the US Navy discussing real LENR reaction that they can switch on and off at will.

        • Stephen Taylor

          That video is the coolest thing I have seen in a long, long time. Many thanks to Ruby Carat! And thanks for highlighting a wonderful story about the real progress being made in the field of LENR.

          • Stephen Taylor

            Ruby Carat conducted these interviews, put the video together and has it posted on her remarkable website:

            ColdFusinNow.org

            As many of you know, she is one of the cold fusion supporters who have never given up and have continued to sacrifice their own personal resources for the benefit of all mankind.

          • Engineer48
          • Stephen Taylor

            He looks so much more vital in this video compared to the recent still photo on Mats Lewan’s blog. Yes, he is 4 or 5 years older but still only 65. A fitness enthusiast he surely will look better soon as his checkup was fine he said.

          • True. Yet he told me that he would like to run the ski competition ‘Vasaloppet’ in Sweden next winter (90 km).

          • Maybe we could make an event out of this, with a welcoming party at the end of his run.

          • Engineer48

            Those that rubbish LENR have never done their homework or may have a pay check that requires LENR to NEVER work.

        • E48, it’s clear that you’ve done your homework and have come to the conclusion that LENR phenomena are real. Thing is most of us did this homework four or five years ago and reached the same conclusion. You’re not telling us anything new with these papers and videos (though I guess they might hold value for newcomers).

          LENR is a given on this web site. Even many skeptics accept that there is something to LENR science.

          What we struggle with here is LENR+ (industrial level excess heat), for which the published science is much weaker. Yet there are a multitude of signs such as significant business activity, public statements, semi-independent but flawed tests, measurements by MFMP and other replicators, etc. that all point toward an emerging LENR+ industry and an energy revolution.

          But yet there are no verifiable LENR+ devices available for public testing and confirmation, and the scientific community remains highly doubtful of LENR+ and still dismissive of LENR in general. The thing we struggle with most is making sense of Rossi and Leonardo Corp who have seemed on the verge of commercialization for years and are at the center of a conflicting whirlwind of information.

          You’re now our instrumented hurricane buster airplane flying into the eye of the hurricane and might be able to tell us if this storm is going to peter out or if it’s the monster storm it appears. Please do report back.

          • Carl Wilson

            “I guess they [these papers and videos] might hold value for newcomers”
            Well I guess that pegs me as a newcomer though I remember vividly when a physicist friend came rushing in with first P&F news. My interest dropped to near background level, maintained by respect for McKubre. Heard rumour of impending Lugano report & confidently predicted (to myself) — another Rossi-no-show. Oooooops. Since then, frequent visits to e-catworld. Sorry for rambling but the point is that many whose interest is high on hydrogen/nickel may neglect the best of the deuterium/palladium history.
            3 gravitational centers for LENR: academic, commercial, military. Orbits confusing.

    • SG

      Lots of qualifying language when referring to LENR, but interesting nonetheless. NASA has been on the LENR train from the very beginning, albeit furtively. Their confirmation of the original F&P experiment was literally suppressed for years.

      • Engineer48

        I know a good contact in NASA that has told me there are at least 2 US gov labs with working LENR reactors that can directly generate electricity.

        We get fed BS but there are people in the US Navy and NASA that do make releases. I can tell you that for LENR to be mentioned in that NASA paper would require what they have what they call floor 13 approval.

    • Stephen Taylor

      Yes, we all dream and we will progress mostly through honest hard work.

    • Engineer48

      Amazing NASA using the “LENR” word in public.
      What would P&F ever say about that?

      “Of this range of options, the current best ISRU solution for energetics appear to be:

       A micro-fission nuclear reactor for on-planet power. This is an assured, high capacity
      energy source that supplies power across the board.

       A lightweight back-up deployable solar array system to ensure life support in the
      event of operational issues with the micro-fission nuclear reactor.

       Utilization of the power from the micro-fission nuclear reactor to produce and store,
      from Mars resources, quantities of methane, oxygen, magnesium, CO2, for use in
      transportation both on planet and in-space [ascent, outbound, return] and as backup
      energy for reactor malfunctions

       Research on advanced thermionics and LENR to determine their efficacy for Mars
      Utilization. These “nuclear” alternatives would enable “distributed/ local nuclear
      class energy density, orders of magnitude greater than chemical with potential
      utilization for transportation writ large as well as stationary on planet application.”

      NASA mentions LENR FOUR times in the paper.
      Good thing they never tried to get it published in Nature.

  • Engineer48
    • Bushnell is a known LENR supporter. Has been for quite some time.

      • Engineer48

        WATCH the whole video:
        https://youtu.be/QxBJjWzlKl0

        There are very senior very respected researchers of the US Navy discussing real LENR reaction that they can switch on and off at will.

        • Stephen Taylor

          That video is the coolest thing I have seen in a long, long time. Many thanks to Ruby Carat! And thanks for highlighting a wonderful story about the real progress being made in the field of LENR.

          • Stephen Taylor

            Ruby Carat conducted these interviews, put the video together and has it posted on her remarkable website:

            ColdFusinNow.org

            As many of you know, she is one of the cold fusion supporters who have never given up and have continued to sacrifice their own personal resources for the benefit of all mankind.

          • Engineer48
          • Stephen Taylor

            He looks so much more vital in this video compared to the recent still photo on Mats Lewan’s blog. Yes, he is 4 or 5 years older but still only 65. A fitness enthusiast he surely will look better soon as his checkup was fine he said.

          • True. Yet he told me that he would like to run the ski competition ‘Vasaloppet’ in Sweden next winter (90 km).

          • Maybe we could make an event out of this, with a welcoming party at the end of his run.

          • Engineer48

            Those that rubbish LENR have never done their homework or may have a pay check that requires LENR to NEVER work.

        • E48, it’s clear that you’ve done your homework and have come to the conclusion that LENR phenomena are real. Thing is most of us did this homework four or five years ago and reached the same conclusion. You’re not telling us anything new with these papers and videos (though I guess they might hold value for newcomers).

          LENR is a given on this web site. Even many skeptics accept that there is something to LENR science.

          What we struggle with here is LENR+ (industrial level excess heat), for which the published science is much weaker. Yet there are a multitude of signs such as significant business activity, public statements, semi-independent but flawed tests, measurements by MFMP and other replicators, etc. that all point toward an emerging LENR+ industry and an energy revolution.

          But yet there are no verifiable LENR+ devices available for public testing and confirmation, and the scientific community remains highly doubtful of LENR+ and still dismissive of LENR in general. The thing we struggle with most is making sense of Rossi and Leonardo Corp who have seemed on the verge of commercialization for years and are at the center of a conflicting whirlwind of information.

          You’re now our instrumented hurricane buster airplane flying into the eye of the hurricane and might be able to tell us if this storm is going to peter out or if it’s the monster storm it appears. Please do report back.

          • Carl Wilson

            “I guess they [these papers and videos] might hold value for newcomers”
            Well I guess that pegs me as a newcomer though I remember vividly when a physicist friend came rushing in with first P&F news. My interest dropped to near background level, maintained by respect for McKubre. Heard rumour of impending Lugano report & confidently predicted (to myself) — another Rossi-no-show. Oooooops. Since then, frequent visits to e-catworld. Sorry for rambling but the point is that many whose interest is high on hydrogen/nickel may neglect the best of the deuterium/palladium history.
            3 gravitational centers for LENR: academic, commercial, military. Orbits confusing.

    • SG

      Lots of qualifying language when referring to LENR, but interesting nonetheless. NASA has been on the LENR train from the very beginning, albeit furtively. Their confirmation of the original F&P experiment was literally suppressed for years.

      • Engineer48

        I know a good contact in NASA that has told me there are at least 2 US gov labs with working LENR reactors that can directly generate electricity.

        We get fed BS but there are people in the US Navy and NASA that do make releases. I can tell you that for LENR to be mentioned in that NASA paper would require what they have what they call floor 13 approval.

    • Stephen Taylor

      Yes, we all dream and we will progress mostly through honest hard work.

    • Engineer48

      Amazing NASA using the “LENR” word in public.
      What would P&F ever say about that?

      “Of this range of options, the current best ISRU solution for energetics appear to be:

       A micro-fission nuclear reactor for on-planet power. This is an assured, high capacity
      energy source that supplies power across the board.

       A lightweight back-up deployable solar array system to ensure life support in the
      event of operational issues with the micro-fission nuclear reactor.

       Utilization of the power from the micro-fission nuclear reactor to produce and store,
      from Mars resources, quantities of methane, oxygen, magnesium, CO2, for use in
      transportation both on planet and in-space [ascent, outbound, return] and as backup
      energy for reactor malfunctions

       Research on advanced thermionics and LENR to determine their efficacy for Mars
      Utilization. These “nuclear” alternatives would enable “distributed/ local nuclear
      class energy density, orders of magnitude greater than chemical with potential
      utilization for transportation writ large as well as stationary on planet application.”

      NASA mentions LENR FOUR times in the paper.
      Good thing they never tried to get it published in Nature.

  • Engineer48

    Akupaku wrote:
    “Would be interesting to see what havoc and collapse that would create with all traditional energy sources and power structures”

    With respect no it would not be interesting.
    It would be like saying let’s try an experiment where we destroy the grid and ALL go back to the stone age.

    People with money would buy totally off grid LENR power systems. reducing grid kWh income, forcing the less well off to shoulder and pay for the constant, of the kWhs flowing over the grid, upkeep cost. The less well off would ultimately not be able to pay for neither LENR generators nor the excessive grid costs. Imagine a future world where the well off had almost free LENR power and the less well off lived in candle lit caves with no electricity.

    This is not an experiment that any civilized society should ever run.

    • SG

      If COP is really 50, then there will be abundance for all. It might take awhile, but that will be the clear trajectory.

  • Folks, this discussion is great fun. I think I note a slight change in mood here, compared to the last few weeks. Now it’s getting really interesting 🙂

    • Stephen Taylor

      Indeed. Mats, thank you again for sticking with this. Your reporting has been excellent.

    • Carl Wilson

      To quote LENR G below:
      “Holy ****.”

    • Robert Dorr

      It’s very nice. I think this is the first set of comments regarding Rossi that there hasn’t been a bunch of ad hominems spewed about.

    • If there is a real thrid party producer this is a very good calorimetry test.
      Industrial process are optimized, and just counting the number of piece produced is an indication of heat consumed.

      it eliminate many source of error and frauds.

      it is like allowing people to touch at the factory, to install their own meters on the device.
      It show that the inventor is not afraid to be tested.

      I was quite positive until recently because :
      – I imagines IH installed the meters, as the prducer, and LC
      – I imagined the client was an industrialist with products to produce
      – I imagined that all was clear for the people of IH, the prducer and LC
      – I imagined Penon was very serious guy with a good backlog (he have a good CV)

      today all is to be reconsidered, not even sure to be bad.

      Many reported behaviors of Rossi are raising red flag.

      today the only godo test seems Ferarra , with fair calibration, and some freedom to check many things.

      Lugano is broken, and only reason to believe it may have worked is that Rossi was not there during the full test.

      1MW test, from the lack of data and the few leaks is without any merit. It can change.

      If I was Dewey I would bet on Brillouin, on IH researshers (Miley,Letts, McKubre…), and on basic researsh like LENRG projects, or japanese NEDO programs

      • Robert Dorr

        Other than the fact that I.H wasn’t allowed to see what was being produced, nothing you said above has changed from what we have known. You’re letting people like Dewey Weaver get to you. If you understand the science then making something with the heat produced is just simply for show, nothing more.

    • Mats, who knows who the customer’s parent is — the British entity?

      Rossi? Yes.
      Rossi’s lawyer, the President of the front company JM Products? Yes
      Fabiani and West? There for a year. Might they have overheard enough to know?
      Darden and Vaughn? Entered legal agreements with JM Products; paying for heat.
      You?
      Any investors or plant visitors?

      Ask Henry Johnson and Fabiani if they know who the British entity is and if they are willing to characterize them for you. Are they bigger than 5 people? When were they established? Do they have other operations in the US? Etc. Maybe you can get enough info to help us understand if we deal with a real company.

  • Folks, this discussion is great fun. I think I note a slight change in mood here, compared to the last few weeks. Now it’s getting really interesting 🙂

    • Stephen Taylor

      Indeed.

    • Carl Wilson

      To quote LENR G below:
      “Holy ****.”

    • Robert Dorr

      It’s very nice. I think this is the first set of comments regarding Rossi that there hasn’t been a bunch of ad hominems spewed about.

    • Tobben Heibert

      Well done Mats…and i realy hope it’s not for nothing, its time now for solid evidence, and good luck to you Mats, i know how much you offered for this historik scenario.

    • Mats, who knows who the customer’s parent is — the British entity?

      Rossi? Yes.
      Rossi’s lawyer, the President of the front company JM Products? Yes
      Fabiani and West? There for a year. Might they have overheard enough to know?
      Darden and Vaughn? Entered legal agreements with JM Products; paying for heat.
      You?
      Any investors or plant visitors?

      Ask Henry Johnson and Fabiani if they know who the British entity is and if they are willing to characterize them for you. Are they bigger than 5 people? When were they established? Do they have other operations in the US? Etc. Maybe you can get enough info to help us understand if we deal with a real company.

      • LookMoo

        I just wonder why IH filed a patent application claiming COP 11 with Rossi as co-inventor..

  • Carl Wilson

    Frank
    Can we have a post the brings together in one place what Engineer48 has been saying or some sort of an evaluation of it?
    Done with utmost regard for the sensitivity of his position.

    • Engineer48

      Try:
      https://disqus.com/by/engineer48/

      All my posts are there.

      Everyone really, seriously needs to watch this video.
      https://youtu.be/6y98YwJ2GEE

      • Carl Wilson

        Much thanks.

      • Carl Wilson

        Tried link. Got told info was private.

        • Buck

          Ditto

      • Stephen Taylor

        Again, for the record, most here know that Gene Mallove’s tragic death had nothing to do with this and really should be left in peace for the sake of common decency. Eng 48, please, use your head.

      • Andy Kumar

        Engineer (?),
        It seems you started using your present moniker only a month ago. What name did you use before this? A few of the old regular posters are conspicuous by their absence.

      • Carl Wilson

        I’d run into stories about Mallove before but not paid a great deal of attention. Now from your link, it looks like this video is part of a presentation by “Sirius Disclosure”
        (http://www.siriusdisclosure.com/). I hope what you have been telling us is better grounded than the bulk of the material they are putting forth.

        • Engineer48

          Have no idea what Sirius Disclosure is. Would seem they used a video shot by someone else.

          Google “gene mallove” then click on Videos. Plenty of videos there about Dr. Eugene Maliove” to watch that have nothing to do with Sirius.

          Try this one:
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avpoIAKvYmU

          • Carl Wilson

            “Have no idea what Sirius Disclosure is. ”

            Sorry, some degree of apology on my part is due.”Sirius Disclosure” did come up in following the link you gave and the association with matters in question was not useful.

            On the other hand the link you give to the US Navy work was VERY useful.

        • kdk

          Bah, the UFO (alien) presence is more thoroughly documented and witnessed than cold fusion. Check out some MUFON stats… most people who see UFOs don’t even report them, because of the ridicule. There’s plethora information on that on YouTube, and I’m talking about people lecturing like Richard Dolan or Stanton Friedman, who have detailed lots of good evidence. The French Cometa report also came to the ET hypothesis, and dealt with physical trace cases where UFOs were reported as having landed. If you’re looking for a government to tell the truth, generally speaking, you’re looking in the wrong place, the US Government in particular. The UFOs represent free energy technology probably well beyond cold fusion, and also probably quite dangerous in the hands of say, nuclear terrorists, running around the world… they’re well beyond the scope of this site, but they are in fact running around.

          • Carl Wilson

            ” If you’re looking for a government to tell the truth….”. I believe real government info on UFOs is under the very highest level of security classification: EMBARRASSING. I find the “Sirius Disclosure” ideas self-contradictory on a number of important points.

          • kdk

            If they found nothing they would declassify and un-redact all the UFO files. Instead, most UFO documents you go through, you can read at most a sentence per page, with the rest being redacted. Those are only the files that they have admitted to having.

          • Carl Wilson

            In addition to redacting, I believe there is likely to be a pro-active program of disinformation. Score Sirius Disclosure +1 on that point.

          • kdk

            Yeah, I’ve seen some funky planes, but I don’t think they’ve got the propulsion back-engineered yet, or at least a power system for it, if they do. I sure as heck wouldn’t want that stuff in some of these guys hands… like other stuff which they clearly do have. In fact, I’d be pretty darn ticked-off if ETs gave the militaries of the world advanced technology.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/6cc39811e9f62f7eb3e5a9dc1aed26213fcd35e8b48ea301134cd2cce1bf9bd8.jpg
            :
            http://theinquisition.eu/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/cargo-cult-plane.jpg

        • akupaku

          Eugene Mallove has nothing to do with Sirius Disclosure. And that site is at least partly correct in its conclusions although their spokesman Dr. Steven Greer does have some embarrassing opinions and is full of his own ego. Anybody who believes in LENR and cold fusion but not in UFOs should do some serious reading, the evidence of alien presence on Earth is overwhelming. You can start with Richard Dolan’s excellent historical series on UFOs and government cover-up, highly recommended. If that does not open your eyes and mind then I guess nothing will.

          Ignorance is the mother of all prejudice and preconception. ;o)

  • Carl Wilson

    Frank
    Can we have a post the brings together in one place what Engineer48 has been saying or some sort of an evaluation of it?
    Done with utmost regard for the sensitivity of his position.

    • Engineer48

      Try:
      https://disqus.com/by/engineer48/

      All my posts are there.

      Everyone really, seriously needs to watch this video.
      https://youtu.be/6y98YwJ2GEE

      It may be a few years old but nothing has changed. Listen to how MIT engaged in fraud to modify a positive 1989 P&F replication to show no LENR effect. The claim is real. Someone at MIT altered the experimental data data and changed the course of history from 1989 to today.

      A few years after this video was made, Dr Mallove was brutally murdered outside his home and all the work he did to boost LENR died away until Rossi came on the scene.

      • Carl Wilson

        Much thanks.

      • Carl Wilson

        Tried link. Got told info was private.

        • Buck

          Ditto

      • Stephen Taylor

        Again, for the record, most here know that Gene Mallove’s tragic death had nothing to do with this and really should be left in peace for the sake of common decency. Eng 48, please, use your head.
        P.S. : I too have made this error, just not like to see others repeat mia culpa.

      • Andy Kumar

        Engineer (?),
        It seems you started using your present moniker only a month ago. What name did you use before this? A few of the old regular posters are conspicuous by their absence.

      • Carl Wilson

        I’d run into stories about Mallove before but not paid a great deal of attention. Now from your link, it looks like this video is part of a presentation by “Sirius Disclosure”
        (http://www.siriusdisclosure.com/). I hope what you have been telling us is better grounded than the bulk of the material they are putting forth.

        • Engineer48

          Have no idea what Sirius Disclosure is. Would seem they used a video shot by someone else.

          Google “eugene mallove” then click on Videos. Plenty of videos there about Dr. Eugene Maliove” to watch that have nothing to do with Sirius.

          Try this one:
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avpoIAKvYmU

          • Carl Wilson

            “Have no idea what Sirius Disclosure is. ”

            Sorry, some degree of apology on my part is due.”Sirius Disclosure” did come up in following the link you gave and the association with matters in question was not useful.

            On the other hand the link you give to the US Navy work was VERY useful.

        • kdk

          Bah, the UFO (alien) presence is more thoroughly documented and witnessed than cold fusion. Check out some MUFON stats… most people who see UFOs don’t even report them, because of the ridicule. There’s plethora information on that on YouTube, and I’m talking about people lecturing like Richard Dolan or Stanton Friedman, who have detailed lots of good evidence. The French Cometa report also came to the ET hypothesis, and dealt with physical trace cases where UFOs were reported as having landed. If you’re looking for a government to tell the truth, generally speaking, you’re looking in the wrong place, the US Government in particular. The UFOs represent free energy technology probably well beyond cold fusion, and also probably quite dangerous in the hands of say, nuclear terrorists, running around the world… they’re well beyond the scope of this site, but they are in fact running around.

          • Carl Wilson

            ” If you’re looking for a government to tell the truth….”. I believe real government info on UFOs is under the very highest level of security classification: EMBARRASSING. I find the “Sirius Disclosure” ideas self-contradictory on a number of important points.

          • kdk

            If they found nothing they would declassify (unredacted) all the UFO files. Instead, most UFO documents you go through, you can read at most a sentence per page, with the rest being redacted. Those are only the files that they have admitted to having.

          • Carl Wilson

            In addition to redacting, I believe there is likely to be a pro-active program of disinformation. Score Sirius Disclosure +1 on that point.

          • kdk

            Yeah, I’ve seen some funky planes, but I don’t think they’ve got the propulsion back-engineered yet, or at least a power system for it, if they do. I sure as heck wouldn’t want that stuff in some of these guys hands… like other stuff which they clearly do have. In fact, I’d be pretty darn ticked-off if ETs gave the militaries of the world advanced technology.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/6cc39811e9f62f7eb3e5a9dc1aed26213fcd35e8b48ea301134cd2cce1bf9bd8.jpg
            :
            http://theinquisition.eu/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/cargo-cult-plane.jpg

        • akupaku

          Eugene Mallove has nothing to do with Sirius Disclosure. And that site is at least partly correct in its conclusions although their spokesman Dr. Steven Greer does have some embarrassing opinions and is full of his own ego. Anybody who believes in LENR and cold fusion but not in UFOs should do some serious reading, the evidence of alien presence on Earth is overwhelming. You can start with Richard Dolan’s excellent historical series on UFOs and government cover-up, highly recommended. If that does not open your eyes and mind then I guess nothing will.

          Ignorance is the mother of all prejudice and preconception. ;o)

      • roseland67

        The entire history of P&F and the involvement if MIT leadership was documented by Eugene Malove, it is a marvelous read and poses many interesting questions and conspiracies.
        Even his murder could be rolled into the investigation by the deepest conspiratorial thinkers.

  • DNI

    The social security tax is paid by the employer. It is 31,42% on the total salary (including personal income tax).

    The corporate tax is 22 % on the companies profit (after paying social security tax).

    The sales tax or VAT is deductible for companies. Hence it is only paid by persons. But maybe it’s the same every where?

    Yes, Rossi would end up in the highest bracket if he take is profit out in salay. But I don’t find that is very likely. It will probable be taken out in share dividend. Then he will get 22 % in corporate tax and 30 % tax on the share dividend. A total of 52 %.

  • Engineer48

    My reference is that over quite some time period, I have worked with Rossi, for a potential client, to align the capability of what the 1MW ECat 1MWt plant can produce and what my potential clients require.

    He has never lied to me, never tried to deceive me nor asked for non escrowed up front money. ALL money paid was subjected to the plant he would deliver meeting agreed test conditions.

    BTW my potential client owns and operates a very large number of thermal power plants and so understand steam probably better than Rossi. Acceptance compliance testing would be done to a team of very highly qualified, skilled, experienced & skeptical engineers.

    It was in fact Rossi that showed me and my potential clients the current ECat 105C steam can’t deliver what they require, 600C steam to drive subcritical steam turbines. Current ECat, NO. QuarkX YES.

    So for a time our corro dropped off.

    Then my potential clients came back and asked me to investigate their purchase of 10 x 1MWt plants as they would like to investigate the reliability and the ability of the plant to adjust output as thermal load alters, especially in SSM mode.

    Now however their 1st target plant has been shut down and will be cut up and sold off.

    So the discussion continues but at a lower level until the litigation in the US is done & dusted.

    I will say again that at no time did anything Rossi said, imply he had anything but the highest regard to the process and having clients that are very satisfied at taking the risk on new technology.

    This is a very different process than following anti and pro comments based on “what I think or believe” on the blogs & forums.

    I can also tell you Rossi has no doubt he will get any money out of any potential client before his delivered product has met the client’s tough test requirements.