Documents in Rossi Case Reveal Correspondence Between Rossi and JM Products

New documents published in the Court docket of the Rossi v. IH case have shown some correspondence between Andrea Rossi and James A. Bass, who is associated with JM Products, the company formed by attorney Henry Johnson of Boca Raton which was formed to be a customer for the E-Cat plant Andrea Rossi ran in Florida.

In a document filed (document 118 here)by Industrial Heat’s legal team, they state that James Bass and Henry Johnson has so far provided 842 pages of documents and state:

Even though this is not a sizable production, the documents in the production have already clearly established important allegations in this case to the benefit of Defendants, including among other things that (a) Third Party Defendant J.M. Products (“JMP”) was not a “real Customer” (to use Rossi’s phrase) using power from Plaintiffs in a manufacturing process, (b) JMP was not associated with the wellknown British company of Johnson Matthey, and (c) Rossi was in control of JMP and paying for all JMP’s expenses, but in a manner to conceal this from others, including Defendants.

They provide some samples of emails in Exhibit A, which is Document 118-01 here.

In some of the email correspondence between Rossi and Bass, Rossi informs Bass of visitors that will be coming the plant, and that he needs to be there to meet them. In an email of Feb 15, 2016, Bass writes to Rossi:

“When we met with some people last year (I do not remember who it was), one of them asked me how does Johnson-Matthey heat their sponge in other plants. At the time I did not know you were cooking platinum, and I didn’t know what process they were using in other US operations, so I was very uncomfortable answering.

“My question is, will the people I meet tomorrow want to know anything technical?”

He also asks:

“Are they interested in the JM side only, or the Leonardo side (which I know nothing about!)?

“What do you want me to say about what we are doing on the JM side? For example will they ask me anything at all about the platinum?”

Rossi responds:

“Absolutely not, he will just ask you if you are satisfied with the plant. No thecnical [sic] questions will be put.”

Other emails included in the exhibit are from Andrea Rossi. In one, he makes requests of JM Products to make an invoice to Leonardo for $1050 for 4,000 grams of nickel powder 99.6 per cent purity. In another he notifies an assistant to Henry W. Johnson that he will transfer $500 from Leonardo Corporation to the JM products account.

In another email, Rossi states that name of the company should officially be “JM Products-Advanced derivatives of Johnson Matthey Platinum Sponge.”

So from what we read here, which is only a very small portion of the 842 pages that have been provided in the case, it sounds like Andrea Rossi was closely involved with the operations of JM Products, which was operating out of the Henry W. Johnson law office. This is apparently why IH does not consider them to be an independent company.

So what can we learn about what JM Products might have been doing at the plant? When we read about cooking platinum, ordering nickel, and advanced derivatives of Johnson Matthey Platinum, it makes me wonder whether the plant was actually involved in producing materials, perhaps fuel, use in E-Cats — and maybe this is why Rossi has been so secretive about what was going on there.

We know that Rossi uses nickel powder in his reactors, so having JM Products ordering 4 kg of it, so could have been processing it, using Rossi’s E-Cat plant as the power source?

There is still so much secrecy and mystery surrounding this whole story, and maybe this case will continue to shed more light.

UPDATE (January 14, 2015)

Andrea Rossi posted this comment related to the above on the Journal of Nuclear Physics:

Andrea Rossi
January 14, 2017 at 1:27 PM
1- the publication of the emails or the diffusion or of their content is in violation of the confidentiality put from the Court. The matter of the pre-trial research is strictly confidential and I cannot make any comment, while our Attorneys will take care of the matter.
2- in general, the publication of pieces of evidence abstract from the specific context is misleading and nonsensical: I cannot speak of the specifics of this case, because they have to be brought first in Court
3- I am more that convinced that we have all the necessary evidence to sustain our case and our evidence does not belong to the blogs, but to the due place
4- our Counterpart has asked for a delay of the term to present evidence against us, we do not need any delay because we have all the necessary evidence already.
Warm Regards,

  • WOW!
    That’s a nuke on Rossi.

    We should not give him any platform anymore.

    • sam

      What about Dewey on Lenr forum.

  • Barbierir

    So also the further 3 plants ordered by the parent company is a lie. This doesn’t look good for Rossi.

    • Doesn’t look good is an understatement.

      But I have to wonder why all this customer stuff in the first place. Rossi didn’t need a customer for the GPT. It was just a target of opportunity, supposedly. But why then set up this fake customer but not give it any meat on it bones. Surely a master scammer would have made the other side more believable if its purpose was to fool Industrial Heat. I mean, in the scam scenario Rossi has come up with myriad ways to build reactors that seem like they work — to the point where he can even hand them off to scientists and be confident they will be fooled.

      He’s an evil genius in the scam scenario. Why would an evil genius have an unmanned fake customer when no customer was needed at all to get his $89M?

      So maybe its purpose was something else. This is all so very very weird and still does not make sense. We need more discovery.

      • Timar

        What is much more concerning than the plain fact that Rossi made up the customer (for which you could find various excuses) is that – taken together with all the fake blog posts and the email Rossi wrote Darden about his “masterpiece” of duping the Swedish investors – we now have a clear picture of Rossi as someone who not only regularly deceives, but also takes pride in doing so, as if he would derive some perverted pleasure from the act of deceiving itself. THAT doesn’t look good indeed.

        • Indeed.

          But is he a deceiver that has working technology and is deceiving to protect IP and other reasons?

          Or is he a deceiver who has nothing and has managed to put together a 5+ man conspiracy, capture $11M, insanely decided to sleep overnight in a warehouse for a year and then sue his victims knowing everything would be exposed?

          • arc

            Rossi claimed to sleep overnight in a warehouse for a year, just like all his other claims. I suspect he does most of his research sitting in his condo in Miami.

            Bernie Madoff knew everything would be exposed. Rational rules of conduct don’t apply in situations like this.

          • HS61AF91

            your analogy truly sucks,i.e.; is ridiculous. Paid fake news, or just your own opinion? Bernie Madoff… screwed thousands for millions, but guess that’s just an inconvenient fact for you. Your opinion that the doctore’s endeavor is analogous to that kind of behavior does not compute.

  • Pekka Janhunen

    According to , platinum sponge is made by strongly heating ammonium chloroplatinate. From one learns that heating the ammonium hexachloroplatinate under a stream of hydrogen at 200 C produces platinum sponge.

    I don’t know how much energy is needed to convert ammonium hexachloroplatinate to platinum, but it cannot be higher than a few tens of megajoules per kg because no chemical process goes beyond that. Platinum is expensive so the energy cost is likely only a tiny fraction of the price of the end product. With 1 MW, if the energy need would be for example 10 MJ/kg, one could produce 8 tons of platinum per day, a hugely expensive lot of order 200 million. Based on these considerations, perhaps they mainly made nickel sponge and only did some experiments with platinum.

    In any case, if they did any kind of sponge production in the plant, someone must have bought the product. Considering the scale 1 MW, buying the raw material must have been a significant investment so they had to be able to sell away the end product.

  • Private Citizen

    Coaching the apparently fake customer on how to pretend to be JM Products-Advanced Derivatives of Johnson Matthey Platinum Sponge? Smells more and more like blatant fraud, unfortunately.

    But hey, look over here, the super new Quark, soon to be mass produced on yet another robotized factory line! Rossi’s promised February demo had better be bullet proof for this observer to trust, meaning hand out samples for truly independent testing under NDA.

  • That is possible, yes. A transcript from the mediation would be absolute gold but we’ll just have to wait for discovery.

    Rossi and his team have mountains of papers to sift through. We’ll be able to have a better understanding of how things unfolded fairly soon I think. Maybe the ERV report will finally be shared.

    • Ged

      Considering how much Discovery is already starting to yield, I actually think there is a real chance we could see the ERV report after all. Miracles?


    1) Does Rossi still have a company with employees?

    2) Did Rossi ever sell any plants to any military?

    3) Does Rossi still have any large company interested in his devices?

    4) Does Rossi actually have any new device that produces more energy than it consumes?

    5) What happened to Giuseppe Levi and the Lugano test team? Do they still believe in LENR and Rossi’s device?

    • You know, Rossi may be insane and we’ve all been sucked in to his elaborate fictional drama for 5 years. But at least we didn’t lose $11M over it. The last 3 years of this unfathomable abstract painting is all Industrial Heat’s fault if they failed to do their due diligence and threw money at a crazy man and also the fault of Rossi’s enablers, who broke laws and defrauded people just because they found themselves in position to leverage a madman’s need to crank out fake but believable reactors.

      But the scenario I find more intriguing is the Rossi is actually sane and wily scenario. So let’s assume that’s the case for argument. Why would he sue IH, knowing that JMP’s details would come to light?

      A1: he thinks it’s tangential to his case and that all that matters is the ERV report and that the plant worked, which hew knows he can prove
      A2: the lawsuit is some kind of forced divorce, blocking tactic or diversion while he gets on with QX with a new partner
      A3: it serves his continuing effort to purposely look like a charlatan, keeping competitors confused and two steps behind

      Anybody have any other sane explanations for suing, knowing the weaknesses of his position wrt JMP?

      • I based my interest in Rossi’s device on the testimony of Sergio Focardi, not on anything Rossi ever said. I cannot understand how Focardi and several other top scientists could be fooled over such a long time period. It still makes no sense to me. As I have said before, this is all Twilight Zone stuff. Figure it all out and you deserve a medal.

        • I would expand that to the field in general. There is so much smoke we can barely breathe. And it is all so very important from economic, environmental and political points of view.

          But here we are 2017 and we still can’t say definitively one way or another if we are on the cusp of a new energy era.

          Does BLP follow through on commercialization this year? They are acting differently this time around. Does Brillouin allow replication? Does Rossi really have something and does the law suit finally give us some clarity? What about Lenuco and Clean Planet and Piantelli/nichEnergy and Nanortech? Does me356 share the goodies or stay hidden? Do the new rounds of MFMP testing finally give us something incontrovertible? What about Parkhomov/Russia and China… do they go big soon?

          The moment is not only pregnant, it is pregnant with octuplets.

          If they are all still-born it’ll be a tragedy.

      • Bob

        Lenr G –
        You blame IH?
        Rossi has led many here for 5+ years and some still cling to him as being truthful, honest and “real”!
        IH seemingly believed Rossi early on. They had the Lugano test performed. Early on this test seemed very positive. (Even though Ross was involved with it)
        Are you stating they were not doing ANY due dliigence!
        Then reports HAVE came out that they were becoming very concerned and questioning as early as June, 2015! They were realizing things were not as Rossi was portraying.
        IH was wanting LENR to be real and as Darden stated, once and for all “crush the tests”. Find out for certain! It seems they are indeed doing this.
        How can you blame them!?! Rossi deserves full credit for this sad story and that credit is NOT positive.
        Why do people still defend him?

        • The fact of the matter is that we all expected Industrial Heat to check that the technology was real before they forked over serious money.

          They said they verified with independent experts in their press release. Forked over $1M.

          Then they let him through a second test gate, forked over $10M more.

          At that point we had every right to believe that the technology was real.

          I blame them for incompetence, if the technology turns out not to work.

          Regarding Rossi, at this point we have to conclude that he is either mentally unstable or that the device works. There’s really nothing else left. A rational con man would have executed an exit strategy after the $10M at the latest and certainly would not have sued. If the device works there is no blame. If he is mentally unstable, I suppose I could blame him for that, but it seems more on point to blame the people around him that failed to contain him and get him help, namely all of his business associates to include both Team Rossi and the Cherokee people.

          • Brokeeper

            My money is on he is an engineering genius. If I am deceived then I am deceived by the best.

          • cashmemorz

            That seems to me to be the crucks of this matter. It is the avoidance of admitting that we, at least I, have been duped. No one wants to admit to that and will therefore hold on to the last straw that what Rossi has done is probably made a working device with a high COP. That COP is another point that may have to be argued in a manner similar to what I say in this statement of guilt. So what. If he is such a good fraudster, then I cannot entirely blame myself for having been duped. I simply am not that good at distinguishing between a real effort in producing a viable LENR device or a complex charade that only makes it appear as if he has made a working device. In other words I cannot be relied on to perform sufficient due diligence in this matter to be dependable as an advisor to investors.

            IH is made of people that have experience in doing due diligence. But a complex charade as Rossi seems to be carrying out may have been too much even for them to see what is actually going on.

            By the same token, Rossi may in fact have a working device with a high COP. I just cannot be sure.

            A psychological game.

            I hope this clears up a little of the fog we are in.

          • sam

            I think he has a working device and still working on
            the high COP.
            People might laugh but I
            think about the similarities between A.R.
            and this fellow.


          • Brent Buckner

            Obligatory _The Simpsons_ reference [Season 9, Episode 12]: “We were beaten by the best”

        • Eyedoc

          And so tell me again why IH is fighting for such worthless IP??

  • Pekka Janhunen

    Relevant point. Could you remind what was the source for the 103C steam temp info? Was it AR or some deduction? I have forgotten.

  • US_Citizen71

    With a heat pump.

  • wizkid

    Any parallels here?

    Tesla’s design for Wardenclyffe grew out of his experiments begun in the early 1890s. His primary goal in these experiments was to develop a new wireless power transmission system

    the project’s primary backer, financier J. P. Morgan, refusing to fund the changes. Additional investment could not be found and the project was abandoned in 1906 and never became operational.

    In order to build the tower, Tesla had to appeal to J.P. Morgan for funds….That was his FATAL MISTAKE…. Morgan had already ruined Tesla financially by taking over the Westinghouse Company and insisting that George Westinghouse stop paying royalties to Tesla. Morgan and Thomas Edison also burned down his laboratory, which contained many of his electrotherapeutic and life saving medical devices. The scientific, medical, and financial loss to all mankind was incalculable.

    Some people claim that Morgan withdrew financial support because the wireless system would not let him put a meter in every house. Nothing could be further from the truth. Morgan saw electricity as a potent military weapon to alter the weather or create a death ray.

    Finally, in desperation, Tesla decided to give the world a peaceful demonstration of the power of his awesome invention.

    The awesome power released by Tesla in a few seconds defies description, but it can be proven mathematically.

    Anybody can be a good guy or a bad guy. Depends on the authors. But hey! I still want to see unlimited power for the people.

  • Frank Acland

    Andrea Rossi
    January 14, 2017 at 1:27 PM
    1- the publication of the emails or the diffusion or of their content is in violation of the confidentiality put from the Court. The matter of the pre-trial research is strictly confidential and I cannot make any comment, while our Attorneys will take care of the matter.
    2- in general, the publication of pieces of evidence abstract from the specific context is misleading and nonsensical: I cannot speak of the specifics of this case, because they have to be brought first in Court
    3- I am more that convinced that we have all the necessary evidence to sustain our case and our evidence does not belong to the blogs, but to the due place
    4- our Counterpart has asked for a delay of the term to present evidence against us, we do not need any delay because we have all the necessary evidence already.
    Warm Regards,

    • Frank Acland

      The latest document in the docket shows that the judge has granted a request from IH to delay the case for 60 days.

      • Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax

        No, that was the Proposed Order. All Rossi v. Darden case files are presented with the Docket, sorted by date and document number, with annotations and links to analysis, on

        I just checked and there is no Order yet on the request for time. There is an Order on the 3rd Party Motion to Dismiss, I’ll have it up in a few minutes. Partly granted, partly rejected.

    • So, Rossi implicitly admits that the emails look really bad, but counters that they are taken out of context. Plus he’s ticked they are released counter to expected confidentiality.

      Reaffirms that he’s in it for the long haul and believes he will win the case. Doesn’t like the delay (even though the delay was because he hasn’t provided the requested docs yet).

      Any lawyers lurking? Rossi’s lawyers seem content to let him press ahead. If you are a lawyer for someone you come to believe has a mental illness, what is your obligation in that scenario?

      Can we deduce from Rossi’s legal team pressing ahead that Rossi is not considered mentally unfit by his legal team?

    • Obvious

      Rossi has all the necessary evidence because IH has submitted an incredible amount of information.
      On the other hand, IH et state in 118: “As of the
      date of this motion, Defendants have not received a single document in discovery from Plaintiffs
      or Third Party Defendants USQL or Fabiani

      • Ged

        So they are doing Leonardo a favor? Otherwise, if Leonardo and co. don’t provide as requested by the appropriate deadlines, they get sanctioned, subpoena’d, or summary judgement passed against them (after all, there is also a counter suit going on, so Leonardo would lose both the original suit and the counter suit). Delaying only helps Leonardo if that complaint is the case then.

        • Obvious

          If I were planning on a neccesary reading of a million+ page book with scrambled chapters, I would set aside some extra time to read it.

    • artefact

      From JONP:

      “Andrea Rossi January 14, 2017 at 4:00 PM
      Here is the release allowed by my Attorneys:
      I have not reviewed any emails which are supposedly reduced, but I can
      say that we are confident that the evidence we have uncovered is more
      than enough to support our claims.
      While I cannot comment on emails I have not seen, I question the
      authenticity of such emails as the Court has entered a protective order
      prohibiting the release of that type of document in this case.
      Dr Andrea Rossi, CEO of Leonardo Corporation”

    • wonderboy

      Andrea Rossi did NOT write this, it was his lawyers, or someone in his team.

      It’s not his writing, we can all see that!

  • Vinney

    Do you really believe that a billion dollar company, that has already shelled out US $11 million and has $89 million owing isn’t going to take measures to find out what is really going on in the plant.
    And so far, with their billion dollar legal team have shown no real substance.
    There is no beef in their evidence.
    Are these lawyers just stringing IH out, they still don’t have a recourse from not paying.
    I still haven’t ruled out that this is all just an expensive PR exercise, and what leads me to this idea is the lack of evidence (periodic photos, videos and third party evidence) from IH.

  • John Littlemist

    Is there any kind of statement from the real Johnson Matthey regarding this case? Have they denied their involvement with JM Products?

    • No. Nothing public anyway. Perhaps IH have talked to them and gotten a statement for the record but nothing shared with us yet.

    • Private Citizen

      “Andrea Rossi
      April 24, 2016 at 4:22 PM
      Hank Mills:

      Your comment contains a big mistake: Johnson Matthey has nothing to do with us. We bought from them some materials but that is all. Please do not diffuse false information.

      No further comments.
      Warm Regards

    • Obvious

      IH stated in their Answer that Johnson Matthey had no operation and no plan to have an operation in Florida. The future tense is very strongly suggestive that IH did contact Johnson Matthey and recieved a response. We have not been shown this correspondence, but it may turn up at some point.

      • Omega Z

        Note I’m not stating Johnson Matthey is involved, but, Johnson Matthey already has operations in the U.S.. If they were involved. it would ultimately be installed at an existing chemical plant.

  • radvar

    Some points from the below are murky:

    1. Was or was not Rossi compelled by contract to have a customer?
    2. Were there any constraints in the contract on the nature of the customer?
    3. Was Rossi obliged by contract to provide any information about the customer to IH?
    4. Did Rossi at any point fundamentally misrepresent the nature of the company to IH?

    If the answers to 2 and 3 are no, then IH left the barn door open. And whatever Rossi might have done or not done in setting up and operating a pseudo-customer is of secondary importance. 4 is a more subtle point, but could be argued as subjective in front of a jury.

    • US_Citizen71

      The only one it seems to be murky to is you. The contract and the addendum do not mention a customer at all. Why would they? IH was seeking a license to sell ECat plants, one would expect someone seeking such a license knew how to sell a product. Concerning point 4 if Rossi did misrepresent JM Products to IH some form of damage would have to be done to IH by JM Products. I do not see how receiving $1000 a day damaged them. It appears Rossi tapped into the greed of IH’s principals in order to get the test finally done. I’m sure they thought to themselves we get to steal his IP and get paid a $1000 a day while doing it, where do I sign.

      • Obvious

        We have seen zero evidence from any party of the lawsuit that IH had invoiced for the heat as requested, or that IH was actually paid for the heat.

      • radvar

        “the only one”… did you take a poll?

      • Obvious

        From the Term Sheet (Exhibit 17):

        The parties to this Term Sheet are Industrial Heat, LLC (“IH”); JM Chemical Products, Inc.
        (“JMC”), the operator of a Miami production facility; and Leonardo Corporation (“Leonardo”).
        1. Industrial Heat, LLC, directly or through its affiliates, owns a 1 MW E-Cat steam plant (the “1 MW Plant”) built by affiliates of Leonardo in Italy in 2013.

        2. JMC operates a production facility in Miami, FL, which requires low temperature steam.
        This term sheet is executed effective as of 13 August, 2014 and is binding upon the parties hereto unless and until modified by a subsequent written agreement executed by the parties.

        Emphasis added.

        • wpj

          Slight problem in that they did not use that plant, but a newer version or two that was supposedly made by IH/Leonardo. Does this still apply in that case?

          • Obvious

            Probably that is a minor technicality compared to other issues. The Tigers used to be on the old Plant roof, and were moved to a new location inside the bigger container. So the newer Plant is sort of the old Plant made by Leonardo. However, there is a long list of variances from the Term Sheet, which cumulatively lead to the impression of significant departure from that plan overall.

      • BillH

        A constant re-writing of the story as and when new damaging information appears is hardly helpful. If no JML exists then AR’s credibility is shot to pieces, he mentioned it’s existence so many time that for it not to exist is damming.

        IH will be hoping to recover some of their $10M that they paid for a plant that didn’t work, that is where the damage lies, it is hardly relevant that JML/AR paid then back $1000/day as an incentive to prove that a customer was willing to pay for energy that was never produced, as an enticement to part with even more money i.e. $89M

        Don’t hold out any hope that 600,000 pages of test data will help. The man who was supposed to monitor it, Penon, was hardly ever required to be on site.

        The only question now is, when are they making the movie.

        • Omega Z

          Rossi never mentioned any company by name except to state that the customer wasn’t Johnson Matthey. Those like you constantly re-writing the story does not help. You need to learn to discern the difference between blog speculations and what Rossi says. I’m also not certain Rossi was even required to have a customer. That was a requirement for Darden to provide had Darden done what he was supposed to. Had IH/Darden setup and performed the GPT as they were supposed to, this situation wouldn’t have happened.

          As to recover some of their $10M, Darden doesn’t want his money back, because that would require him to relinquish all claims to Rossi’s IP. Darden just doesn’t want to complete the contract and have to pay the additional $89m.

  • Stephen

    I find the name of the company “JM Products – Advanced derivatives of Johnson Matthey platinum sponges” interesting.

    Some find the name controversial but to me it’s clearly separating “JM Products” from the “Johnson Matthey” name. Especially given the name of the owner of “JM products”. I guess it’s down to how you read it though.

    But more interesting to me is the “Advanced derivatives” part.

    It clearly doesn’t just say “Johnson Matthey Platinum Sponges” it says “Advanced derivatives of Johnson Matthey Platinum Sponges”

    To me this implies one or more of a few possiblities:

    1. the product uses Johnson Matthey Platinum sponges in its manufacture.

    2. The product derives or enhances something from the platinum
    sponges some how.

    3. The product uses similar technology as that used to make the Johnson Matthey platinum sponges. Maybe Nickel or palladium sponges other structural tech such as nano wires or some combination or more complex derivative.

    4. The product uses licensed IP from Johnson Matthey regarding platinum sponge production.

    It occurs to me that in many of these that they maybe under an obligation to protect the IP of Johnson Matthey if licensed to them as well as their own IP for the product.

    • Stephen

      I would be also be careful about drawing conclusions from these few lines of email exracts from the 800 or so pages of data. That could easily be taken out of context. Incidentally I would also advise the same about reading a few released bits of information regarding IH correspondance. I presume the court will have acces to much more tan we see an perhaps we see only small bits of the over all information. That may be designed to influence opinion but more likely be generated in an attempt to get a response that leads to more information.

      But these emails could also be interesting if interpreted in another way than is being discussed here.

      Regarding payments this could be nothing more than requesting advanced or perhaps already delayed payments for materials brought from them by LC in order to cover their costs.

      I think Bass is enquiring about the Technology used by Johnson Matthey to make platinum sponges. Not the technology used by JM Products that may be derived from Johnson Matthey technology. If his role is more in management or sales or other interface he may not be also be aware of the details about the JM products IP either.

      Clearly Bass isalso saying he knows nothing about the LC side of the operations which reinforces the apparent separation of the 2 sides of the operation. But is also asking what information he can share about JM products. I see nothing strange there.

      But I suppose it’s down to interpretation and certainly knowledge of the over all context.

      I suppose we need to see what the final outcome at court before we really know though.

      It’s interesting JMP maybe providing the purified nickel to LC.

    • wpj

      From what I read of the above, Bass is just a “front man” for the JM operation, which appears to be involved in Pt processing, and clearly doesn’t have any idea of the technical aspects of either JM’s or LC’s operations- a sort of “buffer zone” between everyone- if you don’t know the secrets, you can’t let them slip out.

      The implication is also that the process is being compared to that being conducted at Johnson Matthey sites, as might be expected if it was, as has previously been implied, to measure energy input differences between them.

      I never asked my Johnson Matthey contacts about Pt sponge processing, only Ni sponge, which is what we had previously believe might be going on.

      • My2c

        Are you serious?
        Are you saying that the Director of Engineering doesn’t have to know what is going in a chemical production plant for which he is responsible for?
        Better ask your JM contact how enviromental permits, operational safety, plant safety etc. are handled in such facilities.

        • wpj

          Yes, quite serious. There are problems with Pt processing, but only with Adam’s catalyst (platinum oxide) which needs gas suits due to sensitivity issues. No idea about sponges and how they are made.

      • Stephen

        Ding wow I forgot about the Nickel.

        It maybe a coincidence but I wonder if he is doing something very clever. Maybe Andrea Rossi has already told us what is happening behind the wall with out giving the technical details. Didn’t he once say he had an efficient way to obtain isotopically enhanced Nickel? I think we assumed it was being produced somewhere else but maybe that’s what JM Products is producing.

        I previously naively thought he was using a kind Of LENR process to isotopically enhance the Nickel. But on reflection that would not e very efficient as it would only process small amounts of Nickel.

        I wonder if instead he is using some chemical process or electrolysis process or distilling process to isotopically enrich Nickel on the other side of the wall?

        The return temperature of the water is about 60 degrees if I understand it perhaps this tells us something about the process. For example Methyle acetate acetic acid phase changes to vapor around this temperature. methyle acetate is used to produce Nickel acetate from Nickel. Which can then be used for electroplating. I wonder if some cyclic process dissolving and electroplating Nickel can enrich and separate the Nickel isotopically. Perhaps there are other possible chemical means of isotopic separation that are more efficient at these temperatures or perhaps some distilling process from Nickel compounds absorbed in water.

        It’s also possible I suppose that he is generating heavy water using similar process or both I suppose.

        I know I’m guessing a lot but if it is something along these lines then wow .

        • Pekka Janhunen

          I cannot disprove your guess. However, guessing what is going on inside a black container if the only hint is that it’s using energy is too difficult for us physicists armed with just Occam razors. Almost as difficult as guessing what happens inside a black box if the only hint is that it produces anomalous energy.

          • Stephen

            Yup I agree with you Pekka.

            Let’s wait and see.

        • wpj

          I believe the only way to get enriched material (other than by transmutation) is by zone refining, which would be on almost molten material.

          The original sponge metal insight came from a Mats Lewan contact who visited and was told this. They also claimed to have seen production going on.

          • Stephen

            Yes I suppose you are probably right. I guess the nickel isotopes are too similar in weight to easily separate by electrolysis or distillation. Still it is a viable method for Heavy water production and lithium isotope separation I think. And maybe Nickel sponge can enhance the efficiency of that process? I guess we will have to wait and see. I’m speculating a too much about unknowns.

        • psi2u2

          Very interesting conjecture.

          • Stephen

            I suppose it’s also possible he already has impure Nickel that is either natural isotopically or isotopically enriched from another source. Maybe even from old e-cat fuel. that is mixed in with other materials and uses a process to extract 99.6 % pure samples of Nickel from that material. Obtaining pure samples of metals is technologically difficult for example using nitric acid or other acids can contaminate the sample. But I think there are particular methods using Acetic acid investigated by Johnson Matthey for example in the case of palladium:


            But I also like the idea of Heavy water production as well as the really interesting idea posted in the LENR forum by MrSelfSustain I think about using some material as a catalyst spillover to hydrogenate Nickel.

            Really we have no idea what is happening in the box on the other side of the wall but for sure there are some Interesting possibilities.

            I would bet it’s something very useful though.

    • sam

      Hank Mills
      January 15, 2017 at 12:33 PM

      You mention that JM Products could have been producing the chemicals that were needed by Leonardo Corporation. My thinking is that JM Products could have used the platinum black (platinum sponge) in a pressurized hydrogen environment — UTILIZING THE HEAT FROM THE PLANT — as a spillover catalyst to produce atomic hydrogen that could hydrogenate nickel. Hence, the product being produced (which would be very useful to Leonardo Corporation) could have been optimally hydrogenated nickel.

      Do you think this is a likely scenario?

      What are your thoughts on this possibility?

      To me, regardless of any other considerations, it would seem to have been a beneficial arrangement between JM Products and Leonardo Corporation. Moreover, it would show that both manufacturing was taking place and the heat from the plant was being utilized.


      Andrea Rossi
      January 15, 2017 at 3:13 PM
      Hank Mills:
      My Attorneys ordered me not to talk in the blogs of issues to be discussed in Court.
      Warm Regards,

    • Private Citizen

      Try naming your company “MS Products Advanced Derivatives of Microsoft Binaries” and see who drops a big hammer on you for trademark infringement, possibly fraud. …or maybe “NYT Journal – Advanced Edition of New York Times Journalism

      “From the I.H. response, p. 43:”. . . During this meeting,
      Rossi and Johnson made a number of false representations to Industrial
      Heat, most notably that JMP (at the time called J.M. Chemical Products,
      Inc.) was a confidential subsidiary of Johnson Matthey p.l.c. (“Johnson
      Matthey”), and that Johnson Matthey was interested in using the E-Cat
      technology in connection with a confidential manufacturing process it
      wanted to operate in Florida.”

      • Gerald

        Agreed, this does look bad. Then again we have a system that a judge makes a verdict based on facts not on feeling(personaly). Lets not judge our self. For me the Rossi saga stays the same. I think he had/has something, is it good enough for production I doub it. Is LENR real, yes. Did Rossi change facts in his favour and possible fraud, yes. I tend to believe IH let hem play along. But then again I just read whats on the internet, so I base thinking on feeling not on plain facts besides the court files. My biggest question is why did they visit the factory and did not distance them self in an earlier stage. Only the fact that Rossi fooled them isn’t good enough for me, that looks somewhat lame given whats in stake. We will know maybe someday, we may have opinions but let the judge decide.

        One thing I have to thank Rossi for is that I’m aware again of LENR and have read a lot of interresting articles about it, not only about the e-cat. Even learned some things, example how MFMP did conducted experiments and the way they analysed data. Great experience I must say. Cost a lot af time do. 😉

        • BillH

          Bearing in mind that all of this testing could have taken place behind closed door. Why would it be necessary to disseminate such obvious falsehoods about his relationships with his partners and his “customer”?
          Look back and see how much IH/JML were pleased with performance and construction, according to AR.

          In the end AR’s boastfulness and distribution of untrue information will probably be his downfall. had he kept this between LC and IH he might even have got away with it, or at the very least be in a position to scam on.

          I don’t expect any of the main players to show up at the trial. Perhaps Johnson will show but only to explain his minor part in the deception(hehe).

          • Gerald

            Indeed we did hear a lot for a closed door testing. And the internet works well for giving snippets of information. Most of the time is doesn’t matter if the information is right or wrong, the goal is reached. The good thing is internet has a good memory and back tracking is often possible, the bad thing that most people don’t care or don’t remember. They made up their opinion and carry on.

            We live in a time I guess as childern information wise, we need to adapt that information is almost instand but that the information could be wrong. As an example the the Trump thing in Russia. Is the information right? I don’t know. I could see him do it, but then again is my picture of the guy right, you tell me. What was confusing for me that no one questions that a political party hires a britisch ex intellegent agent to dig in someones past just to see of they could harm the person. I’m not a republican or democraat, just a european dad who as to raise childern to question everyting they hear and make up their own mind and accept that it maybe is wrong. Strange times it is.

            The thing is, if Rossi was right or wrong or was an incredible magician it doen’s matter. Time will tell and I thing most of the people following LENR are people with a good set of brains. Me myself did believe Rossi had it at some point, that doesn’t make me an idiote. We need to keep things in balance and sometimes hang forward and sometime back, let’s not judge someones opinion just respect it and try to understand him.

      • Obvious

        Considering Rossi’s earlier very strong denial of the connection to Johnson Matthey, I suspect that JMP recieved a cease and desist letter from Johnson Matthey’s lawyers fairly early on. Trademarks must be defended vigorously (not neccesarily by a full legal attack, although there probably will be a threat of legal action) or they revert to public domain.

      • Stephen

        I can see how it can be seen that way depending on how you read it.

        But “MS” is almost synonymous with “Microsoft” in many people’s minds. As is “NYT” with “New York Times”. I’m not sure that “JM” has the same association with “Johnson Matthey ” in people’s minds.

        Perhaps a more accurate comparison would be “MD Products – Advanced derivatives of Mc Donald’s Hamburger’s” 😉

    • radvar

      Not to comment on your view in particular, however, I’m somewhat surprised that anyone thinks there was any real product at all.

      The emails point to JM Products being a “pseudo” customer, with the barest organization structure and separation from Leonardo Corporation that could be called a customer.

      As far as I’ve seen in all these posts, there is extremely limited physical, documentary or testimonial evidence of any physical material whatsoever being processed in the “customer’s” “plant”.

      This is “murky” to me :-), and I would be happy to be corrected on this account.

      None of this absolutely discounts the potential reality of e-Cat LENR, however, it definitely lessens Rossi’s overall credibility in my mind.

      • Stephen

        It’s possible I suppose but I don’t see why he would say they have someone producing a product if that was the case. As you say it wasn’t necessary for the validation of the E-Cat.

        My personal view is that they were maybe processing Nickel in some low impact way. But I wonder has anyone considered if they were simply producing Heavy Water?

        • radvar

          Not to be argumentative, however, I would look for exactly where Rossi claimed that the plant was producing a “product”.

          Depending on the strength of the claim, there has to be some way for him to prove that.

          I’m not aware of any evidence that would allow him to do so.

  • Relax, clovis.

    It is one possibility that remains from an open-minded analysis. If it offends you that’s your problem. No forum rules have been violated.

  • SD

    If we interpret the tax numbers released in exhibit A, JMP only had eaxctly 1 employee and that employee wasn’t paid an engineer’s salary.

    Bass does talk about “cooking platinum sponge”, but chances are he is talking about the agreed upon storyline (or was misled by Rossi) and not about an actual process.

    Rossi used what looks like a fake invoice to justify transferring money from LC to JMP – this doesn’t look good at all.

  • wizkid

    Google the statements for the references … The Tesla stories are legendary.

  • wizkid

    We all have opinions, thank you for yours.

  • SD

    One does not need to be a lawyer to interpret what is going on in those emails.

  • sam

    Gerard McEk
    January 16, 2017 at 11:43 AM
    Dear Andrea,
    You have told us that the QuarkX may be demonstrated next month. I have some questions regarding this:
    1. How likely is that going to happen in February?: a. Very; b. Probably; c. Maybe not; d. Do not know
    2. Are the locations selected?
    3. Are you preparing these demonstrations already?
    4. Are you considering to demonstrate an 1 MW ‘low temperature’ plant in the future too?
    5. If ‘Yes’, when roughly may that happen?
    6. If ‘No’, why not?
    Thank you for answering our questions, we very much appriciate this!
    Good luck with the QuarkX tests and I hope you will survive this endless reading of the boring trial documents.
    Kind regards, Gerard

    Andrea Rossi
    January 16, 2017 at 4:40 PM
    Gerard McEk:
    1 not yet decided
    2- yes
    3- yes
    4- only to Customers
    5- at the delivery
    6- n.a.
    Warm Regards,

    • Gerard McEk

      The decision to demonstrate the QuarkX depends on something, but AR does not want to say what. Just “when we are ready for it”. It is not the 5 Sigma test, though … I have suggested before that it could be an endurance test of 1 year of one of the 3 QuarkX’s being tested. The fact that he is now preparing the test tells me that it is likely to happen in February.
      How AR wants to promote the (expensive) 1 MW plants (only by delivery) seems inadequate. I will ask further questions.

      • Vinney

        He cannot disclose details of location and actual time, as he does not want the detractors to alert EPA. It will be a delayed broadcast, with only a few hours notice, (probably after the test is completed) and for technical reasons, but I hope he has a third party calorimetry expert present ( not hard as the test is relatively straight forward), a scientific authority and validatory media presence ( at the actual live event, doesn’t have to be CNN, but I am sure he has his favorites). What would be nice is if after the video streaming, all persons evidently present would be available for questions (posed by text feedback, from media channels around the world) from the viewers. An event organized this way does not compromise his forthcoming industrialization (it would garner a lot more investor interest which he appears to need, otherwise he wouldn’t be spending all that personal time on IH courtcase) and give very little to his competitors.
        It would certainly prepare the public for the introduction of the E-cat.

    • Gerard McEk

      I did ask AR further questions, but Obviously he didn’t like me asking further about that. He trashed it.

    • Rene

      Update: it is not happening in February. Rossi said he has to deal with his lawsuit, so the Quark demo happens much later: July. Maybe later than that depending on the quantum winds.

  • Pekka Janhunen

    Rossi has always been his own life’s Mel Brooks.

  • BillH

    How did this thread become a discussion about a Quark X test? It looks awfully like and attempt at misdirection by at least three people. Quark testing…new thread please.

    • artefact

      It does not work like a forum here where topics with new messages get on top of a list. New posts in older topics are only read by a few.
      Also there is no new topic for everything. That results in only some actual news threads where most new messages are posted (not all totally on topic of the actual thread). It has always been like that and worked good imho.

    • cashmemorz

      Core topic of this site is the E-Cat and or derivatives such as Quark heaters. Particular topic of this thread, the court case details, is directly related or dependent on E-Cat. As far as I understand this is sufficiently close to the overall purpose of topic and site to be allowed as cross topics re Frank Ackland/ Moderator allowing such latitude.

    • Vinney

      The public demonstration is becoming important to the court case.
      One thing we haven’t discussed here is the mechanics of a female judge and the first Cuban American to the bench, in this highly technical case.
      Her profile is here;
      I am concerned that she may be worried about appearances, especially as she will be presiding over a case assisted by America’s number 1 PR and legal firm.
      Unlike a male Judge who may have scientific or mechanical interests and personal pursuits outside the law. I think Judge Altonaga is highly aspirational and at only 54 expecting some stellar advances.
      She is more likely to believe the ‘status quo ‘ represented by Cherokee, IH, IPH and the associated Woodford Investors than a lone (although brilliant) inventor entrepreneur.
      Her career is at stake, and she is one of the few Cuban American judges even today. Her own community needs her in the long run.
      Andrea Rossi must perform a credible QuarkX demonstration (which will gain a lot of world notoriety and thus will be seen by the Judge), only then will she believe the tech is real and change her position.
      More than one demo may be necessary on more than one continent.
      As I don’t think industrialization is going to be happening this year, and thus able to affect court outcome.

      • Omega Z

        ->”Her career is at stake”

        No it isn’t.

        #1, This has nothing to do with the E-cat being real – not real.
        #2, She merely needs to rule on the evidence to be presented.
        #3, This will ultimately be a Jury trial.

  • Pekka Janhunen

    The flowrate of 1MW should be roughly 0.5 kg/s, or 0.5 m^3/s, which, if one uses the calculator at , gives 20 cm inner diameter of the pipe.

  • Personal attacks on other posters are discouraged.

    Identifying possible mental illness as one explanation for some of what’s going on with Rossi is absolutely fair game. Leave the moderating to Frank, please.

  • Brent Buckner

    I am open to the possibility that Rossi has a personality disorder.

  • That may be true, but why did N.I. stick its neck out and publicly state that Rossi’s device had great promise? If they never tested it, why say something that controversial that could come back and haunt them? National Instruments produces control systems for nuclear reactors. They must know something about measuring heat. No? That said, I am now a Rossi skeptic and a LENR skeptic until someone actually proves something. A COP of 1.3 that you cannot even produce on a consistent basis is not proof of anything. The fact that even tiny results are not reliably reproducible is a giant red flag that shouts any positive results are just measuring errors. The Russian and Chinese “replications” have never convinced me because they are too weak and unreliable.

    • Pekka Janhunen

      NI CEO James Truchard is personally interested in LENR and they/he have also sponsored different LENR entities. This was discussed on ECW a few years back although I don’t remember the details by heart.

      • NI never supported Rossi. Rossai said much then admitted they he was just using tools from them. NI said nothing.

        Truched wupproted, like me, LENR since long, but he have a company to run.
        He pushed LENR few years ago, but with defkalion crash nothing more. Dennis Cravens was just theer last NiWeek I remember…

        I’m afraid Truchard is worried about the fraudsters now.

        • clovis ray

          Hi guys
          I remember those conversations ,n/i were consulted as to the best ways to measure heat and i have discovered over the years it is quite complicated to get an accorrate reading Dr. R was getting expert advice as which meters to use and how. I learned a few things i did not know about those things.

        • Omega Z

          Rossi said he was working with National Instruments.
          Rossi also said he was working with Siemens.

          All Rossi meant was he was in consultations with these companies. It was the blogs that construed this to mean more then what it was.

          I don’t hold Rossi responsible for what the blogs say nor is he responsible to monitor the blogs to correct them.

  • Stephen

    I totally agree with you Clovis.

    Unfortunately the IH case seems to be largely based on discrediting The JMP operation behind the wall in attempt to discredit the character of Andrea Rossi.

    If the E-cat clearly didn’t work I’m not sure why they would need to do that.

    I’m also pretty sure JMP did have something behind the wall. I can think of a number of possibilities from something very simple to somethings more complex. But after following this story a while and seeing how Smart Rossi is I would bet it is something very useful. That would also explain why he was keen to have the E-Cat located there.

    Do you remember the old days back in the 70’s and 80’s. The concerns then were different than today. We were apparently going to run out of oil in a few decades. We were apparently due another ice age. Solar power was not viable, Nuclear power was quite unpopular and even it’s saftey was popularly a big concern. Even Hydropower was disrupting large communities. AR’s technology solution back in those days seem very smart to me for the concerns of the time to me too. And also provided useful recycled Hydrocarbons. Perhaps there were other issues for him with finance or disrupted project management, but I think even these issues were real they were likely were not purely of his making. But the technology idea was a very smart idea for the issues of the time. With out a doubt he is technologically very smart.

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