Rossi: E-Cat Good Enough for Electricity Generation on Industrial Scale

Andrea Rossi had mentioned earlier this week on the Journal of Nuclear Physics that “our tech is mature to produce electricity only on industrial scale, using the Carnot cycle.”

I noted that each year coal power plants are retired from service, having completed their life-cycle, and are not being replaced by new coal plants largely because of environmental concerns, and I asked if the E-Cat could be used as a fuel to meet the energy demand as we lose more coal power plants. Rossi responded saying that they were not yet ready to produce E-Cats on an industrial scale, and I followed up with this:

Frank Acland
September 16, 2017 at 2:36 PM
Dear Andrea,

I understand you are not at mass production stage at this point. My question was to learn if you think [your] technology is developed enough to build power plants (control, stability, durability, sufficient temperature, etc.), once you have sufficient production capability.

+++++++++++++++++++++++

Andrea Rossi
September 16, 2017 at 4:22 PM
Frank Acland:
The answer is “yes”.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

If Rossi is planning to create electricity on an industrial scale he is going to need production facilities that will be able to make millions of E-Cats and control systems (the average coal plant in the US today produces around 500MW of electricity), so substantial funding will be required.

  • sam

    JPR
    September 17, 2017 at 2:35 AM
    Update?

    Andrea Rossi
    September 17, 2017 at 7:27 AM
    JPR:
    Preparing for a fundamental closed doors test in the next week, after which Sigma 5 will have been completed.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    Gerard McEk
    September 17, 2017 at 10:18 AM
    Dear Andrea,
    I keep my fingers crossed for the final sigma 5 tests. I hope that they will go as intended and that your E-cat QX is then finally qualified to pleasure the world with its heat.
    Just for my understanding: when you say it is ‘next week’, is that starting tomorrow or starting Monday the 25th of September?
    What type of tests do you intend to do?
    Thank you, kind regards, Gerard

    Andrea Rossi
    September 17, 2017 at 11:31 AM
    Gerard McEk:
    I intend this week starting tomorrow.
    The test is restricted.
    Thank you for your kind wishes,
    Warm Regards
    A.R.

  • Omega Z

    Fuel availability and logistics are a major reason power plants are so large and highly centralized. All these issues become moot with E-cat technology. They can be distributed close to point of use and at much smaller scale. Rossi in partnership can build much smaller units in the few 10’s of megawatts.

    I would imagine that units could be totally built in a factory and delivered on site in something the size of a shipping container. Wire it in and done..

    • Matt Werner

      There are electrical substations that are today just used for voltage step down, switching and circuit breakers. Dropping a container with an E-Cat generator within the fence of these existing substations would be great start.

      They would be allowed to make about as much noise as transformer hum since many of these sub stations have neighbors.

  • Jas

    Rossi needs safety certification for home units. Whenever he is asked he says they are still working on it.

    • CWatters

      I very much doubt he has started any kind of consumer certification because the necessary standards don’t exist for such a product. These things are typically drawn up by committes made up of representatives from industry leading companies. They usually meet and report regularly, publish draft proposals etc. None of that exists.

      • Omega Z

        Pretty much any standards for any device already exist. Even a Rossi QX.
        What doesn’t exist is any substantial operation safety data. That will have to come from it’s industrial use.
        Did you know the inventor has major input on exactly what a device is tested for?

  • Gerard McEk

    Yes, I asked him less than two weeks ago and he said he experts the first E-cat driven electrical power plant within the coming 5 years. I do not think there are already finite plans for constructing such a plant in a joint venture with a customer. So if there is a plant then it will probably a small one (<10 MW).

    • Skip

      Typo? (<10KW) ?

      • Gerard McEk

        No, I assume that industrial steam based units will only be economical when they an output power of more than 1 MW.
        A domestic unit (10-40 kW) will not be based steam. Using a CO2 based medium using a small turbine requires a considerabel development, though.

        • Skip

          Wasn’t sure. Thanx for the clarification

        • Omega Z

          I would guess giving the overall costs to build/purchase install the system plus maintenance and annual recharge cost, home energy production will always cost more then grid power with the exception of E-cat heating systems.

          I expect in time, power plants will be built and operated at a city or district level. This would also allow a savings in the current centralized distribution costs. Steel and concrete towers as well as relay and substations add a huge cost to the grid.

      • GiveADogABone

        Very Close!
        http://www.bladonjets.com/
        12KW MICRO TURBINE GENSETS

  • LarryJ

    He has explained this issue many times. Rossi wants badly to bring his invention to the world. This requires a massive industrialization. A massive industrialization requires that someone put up a great deal of money for the production of a new and unlikely product whose operating principles are still unknown. A great deal of money can only be got from outside investors. Outside investors require a good return on a risky investment. A good return is much more likely if your product and your markets are protected from copy cats.

    It is not selfishness. It is just Rossi’s belief that this is the best way forward and it is his baby after all. Without him there would be little to argue about.

    • georgehants

      Larry, seven years and counting, to anybody of average intelligence it would seem that there is something wrong with the system that forces Rossi to delay his discovery (if genuine) from helping others for that amount of time and get a fair reward.
      Perhaps it needs a few people thinking of a better system.

      • LarryJ

        Rossi lives in the real world and has to work with the system in place which despite its faults seems to feed more people than any other system tried.

        Many of the delays were not Rossi’s fault unless you consider teaming up with IH his fault. IH delayed the 1 year test as long as they could. Then we had to wait for the one year test to complete. Then we had to wait well more than a year for the trial. All Rossi’s fault I am sure. In the meantime the technology continued to evolve and mature and more time was/is required to bring that up to production standards. I would be surprised if there were not more delays. Changing the world is not easy. I think any paradigm shifting tech is going to have a difficult birth.

        I don’t make any claim to having average intelligence but I have been watching since early 2012 and given the hurdles he has faced I am astonished that he is promising a major demo next month and product (energy) for sale this year or next. Unlimited cheap clean energy in my lifetime. Who would have thunk it. Give yourself a shake man. Thanks to Rossi you may see your socialist utopia yet.

        • georgehants

          Larry, sorry you forgot to mention that logically and obviously as you seem to agree, the system is insane and that anybody with average intelligence would start suggesting ideas to change that system.
          Do you have any ideas to help Rossi not having to be involved in corrupt capitalist business practices etc. and stop the ridiculous delays caused by that system, or are you saying nothing can be improved in life so we all go back to sleep.

          • LarryJ

            Technology drives change. In todays economy of scarcity I think the system we have is about as good as it’s going to get. Once technology delivers us an economy of plenty (ie cheap energy) you may see many changes you like and no doubt some unexpected ones you don’t. In the meantime there is no stopping technology and change will happen but please stop holding your breath. Change takes time.

          • georgehants

            Larry, many thanks for your answer, I find it very difficult to understand how forgetting it’s many errors, that stops you suggesting ideas to help Rossi avoid the childish delays and troubles he has had with the present ridiculous system so far.

          • LarryJ

            How you got from Rossi’s childish delays to implying that I accept racism is beyond me but as I said above, I make no claim to average intelligence.

          • georgehants

            Larry, read again, I did not say you did not have “average intelligence” but thank you for your self admittance that you do not.

      • Omega Z

        There you go again George. Blame the system. You ever think that the issue isn’t the system, but people(All People) in general. No system including the one we have will work any better until you change the mentality of people and that’s not going to happen.

        A natural state, yin yang, negative-positive, evil-good. It is a conjoined package. You can’t have one without the other. The best we can hope for is balance between the two.

        Rossi wants to mass produce product and make it as cheap as possible. If this was released into the wild, do you think that would actually happen. I DON’T. However, should Rossi succeed in releasing a cheaply priced product, those who follow behind him will have no choice but to follow suit to be competitive.

        Beyond that, This will only be cheaper energy. Not cheap. A Billion$ power plant will still cost a Billion$. This is a part of the energy cost we pay for, not just the fuel. It also is improbable this will ever be economical as a private in home energy generator. I have followed those home systems for many years and the hardware cost and longevity make them cost much more(by several times) then we currently pay for energy even if the fuel was free.

        We also need to keep in mind that tho energy makes most of the modern world possible, it only makes up about 10% of average cost. Realistically, LENR will only change things by 6% overall as all fossil uses will not be replaced. Things will change much less then many here think…

        • orsobubu

          And there you go again and again, Omega Z. Your vision is metaphysical; why evil and good together forever in a balance? Reality does not behave this way. There is thesis (ie, peace), antithesis (ie, war) and synthesis (war to the war), when a new state of thngs is dialectically created after a revolutionary process. Nature does not contemplate a stable equilibrium, and same for social sciences. In our society, Rossi needs capitals to materialize his vision; after working classes will seize the power, they will abolish exploitation, wage work and money, so the Rossis of the future will just need to organize the immense workforce of whole mankind to its full potential, forgetting any need of outlawed capital.

          • Omega Z

            Open your eyes. Nature is always trying to achieve equilibrium usually towards the smallest common denominator. However, certain contradictions would indicate there may also be an anti-nature. Then there’s human nature that rolls all things into one and these things are inseparable. The most generous person can also be the most greedy on any given day. As I said, the best you can hope for is balance.
            ——————————————-
            “forgetting any need of outlawed capital”

            Really?
            Capital can consist of many things including properties, materials, labor, intellect to name a few. It doesn’t matter if you keep track separately or use currency as an interim. It’s all the same in the end. So if you want to outlaw capital, you’ve basically outlawed all commerce. Actually the last half of your post clearly shows you no nothing about how any economic activity works. My best effort to wrap it all up is that you want more of everything while doing little of anything to earn it.

          • orsobubu

            Or maybe I know it better. I’m in good company, Einstein for example. Your post shows clearly you have a metaphysical, idealistic vision of reality. The fact that economic activity works exactly as you describe, don’t imply that it will be forever. If mankind had not aimed (and prepared) to constant evolution of society, we would have been still roaming at pharaohs times. Anyway, our are times in which who works harder doesn’t eat, and who does nothing has the biggest of castles. But you are right to preach this way, if you get (I sincerely hope for you) some form of privilege from the present capitalistic system of social relationships. Long life to Great Pharaoh Omega Z! 🙂

          • Omega Z

            “Anyway, our are times in which who works harder doesn’t eat, and who does nothing has the biggest of castles.”

            To the court Jester… You continue to show a lack of economic understanding or human nature of any kind..

            Here’s a “CLUE”… You and I. WE all are but another commodity of which market supply/demand applies. Everyone has value. It’s just that some have more value(as gold is more valuable then silver) then others and it doesn’t matter how much labor you perform.

            A client once complained to my business partner about his fees considering he was only there for 15 minutes. To which my partner answered, You’re not paying me for what I do. You’re paying me for what I know. Point being that if not for his knowledge, he could have been there for hours which would have cost much more.

            As a commodity, manual labor is at the bottom because there are so many who can perform manual labor. More then the market requires(There’s that supply/demand). Skilled labor(knowledgeable) is much less prevalent and commands a higher wage and so forth.

            I’ve thought that maybe you and those who think like you should go somewhere and create your utopia, but then I recall some of your past postings. You apparently 1st need the capitalist system to create the wealth for it to work. Followed by a recent post of eliminating the capitalist system once Rossi finishes his E-cat. “Really”. It differs from other energy only in cost. Everything else remains the same. It’s not a magic lamp that grants all wishes. I wonder is there any scenario where a system as you envision can develop and stand on it’s own without taking from others.

            Note that all that exploitation and wealth you’re so fixated on is investments to provide for everyone in the future. Without it, life as we know it would come to an end. What we take for granted must be continuously replenished just like farming is a continuous process to keep people fed.

            A system, any system including your utopian idea must continually invest for the future or there will not be one. Thus, nothing in your system would negate the need for the exploitation of people. That’s if you want a future.

    • LilyLover

      “… Outside investors require a good return…”
      >>If the system were fair, Rossi’s supporters could have lent into existence million dollars per person, without requiring any return on investment. I.e. Capital creation right is not democratic and is propped up by the “system” to benefit the beneficiaries of the system.
      “… only makes up about 10% of average cost. ”
      >>The role of ultra-cheap energy as a tipping point towards abundance is completely lost on you.
      I think Rossi is not selfish, but merely too un-trusting of the the people that made Tesla poor, shelved the large-format batteries under patents, and defamed him. He sees himself as the best deliverer to the most. The non-profitability of Linux vs Apple is not lost on Rossi. He’s taking the Microsoft road. Not too aggressive but highly dominant. The more I think, the more I see George’s point. Rossi ought to be saintly and let the E-Cat run wild and flourish like Android.
      I have an even more cunning view of Rossi’s speedy system. Let the capitalist work hard and clear the regulatory burdens for E-Cat certification globally, and arrange for massive capital and set up the factories. And when production is sufficiently contracted and capacities are guaranteed, then, free-up the technology for easy copy-cat-ting! Thus, he can bankrupt the investors and disperse the capital at amazon-like pricing. The investors must play along, for if they don’t, someone else will!
      Another fear-factor is that — some giant industrialist will say, Rossi’s technology improved by our team of 30,000 scientists and sold by the bikini-babes is 7% better! (Tweak the display, who’ll ever bother?) They can blatantly copy Rossi and keep him tied into lawsuits for forever. They can let the Rossi-device pass, copy exact device claim improvement. Design arbitrary criteria and pass their system and then make the Rossi-device un-certifiable.
      Thus, Rossi is playing the game of “Smarter than the king?” and so far he is winning.
      Regardless, system is incomplete. Evolution is a must.

  • Omega Z

    Do you really want to stay home to keep an eye on your portable generator. How will you every pay for it without your day job?

    There are at least a half dozen companies that manufactures small (10KW/15KW) CHP systems for private use. They all have the same issues. There not cheap and they have no longevity. None I’m aware of last more then a year if used 24/7. They are basically a very expensive portable generator not suited for daily use.

    Note that even G.E. has R&D on these projects and have no better luck then anyone else. Small even with zero fuel costs are not an economically viable technology.

  • Frank Acland

    Frank Acland
    September 18, 2017 at 9:17 AM
    Dear Andrea,

    Thank you for the explanation about Sigma 5. Does Sigma 5 represent only an internal milestone for you, or is this goal important to some external entity?

    Many thanks,

    Frank Acland

    Andrea Rossi
    September 18, 2017 at 11:40 AM
    Frank Acland:
    Both.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    Andrea Rossi
    September 18, 2017 at 11:39 AM
    Greg Leonard:
    About our new Partner there is no way that information is released for the time being, while about the jet engine we are working on it.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

  • Steve Swatman

    Would Mr Rossi’s QX arrays not be perfect for the Sandia, Brayton, GE and Toshiba “supercritical Co2 generators” https://energy.gov/under-secretary-science-and-energy/supercritical-co2-tech-team

  • sam

    JPR
    September 19, 2017 at 6:30 AM
    Update?

    Andrea Rossi
    September 19, 2017 at 2:07 PM
    JPR:
    Still well. Tomorrow will be very important.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

  • sam

    Gerard McEk
    September 22, 2017 at 3:16 AM
    Dear Andrea,
    You have been very positive about the tests of the E-cat QX up and until Thursday. Can you confirm that the system has now succeded for the 5 sigma tests and is ready to conquer the world? Can we congratulate you and your team?
    Thanks and kind regards, Gerard

    Andrea Rossi
    September 22, 2017 at 5:51 AM
    Gerard McEk:
    The test is gone well and we had a very important thing. We made a strong step forward.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    • CharlesSWVA

      Oh, good. Step #826 forward.

  • Omega Z

    You can control pressure by restricting outflow of the steam. Rossi merely operated the 1MW at low pressure.

  • sam

    Dear Dr Andrea Rossi,
    You said that the 1 MW plant that worked for one year in the performance test in Doral, Florida, has been disassembled to analyze all the parts of it to study in the particulars all the problems emerged during one year of operation. Did you already obtain interesting data? Besides: will these data help also the E-Cat QX?
    Cheers
    M.

    Andrea Rossi

    October 4, 2017 at 7:28 AM

    Maggie:
    Yes, we collected more than 1,000 pages of data in all the particulars of all the components. Yes, the E-Cat QX has been born based on the same principles of the patent, therefore the data we are collecting are very precious. It is a mine of knowledge.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

  • sam

    Rick57

    October 5, 2017 at 3:22 PM

    Dear Andrea,
    I did a little math and, if my calculations are correct (and hopefully She continues to perfom very well), sigma 5 target should be achieved by October 23, my birthday !
    This would be the best present I could receive !
    Good Luck,
    Riccardo

    Andrea Rossi

    October 5, 2017 at 6:15 PM

    Rick57:
    Moreless you are right.
    Thank you for your attention to our work.
    I will do my best to honour your birthday.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    Andrea Rossi

    October 5, 2017 at 1:25 PM

    Jean Yves Motivier:
    The final goal is related to how many hours without failures.
    We are very close to the target, I’d say we are around the 95%.
    Thank you for your attention to our work,
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    Jean Yves Metivier

    October 5, 2017 at 7:10 AM

    Dr Andrea Rossi,
    Your sigma 5 quest is interesting, but your answer to JPR is pointless.
    What is your final goal, is it related to how much cycles you do, how many days without failures, or how many Watts without interruptions?
    How far are you from the goal in percentage?
    The answers to these questions will give the Readers a feel of your progress.
    Keep it up!
    Jym

  • sam

    Darrin

    October 11, 2017 at 5:33 AM

    Dr Andrea Rossi:
    Still about the replication made by the Professors of Uppsala: you said you can’t comment before they publish a report, but do you know the results of their trial to replicate the results of Lugano by themselves in a laboratory of the University of Uppsala?
    Thank you if you can answer
    Andrea Rossi

    October 11, 2017 at 6:57 AM
    Darrin:
    Obviously I know the results, I have been informed about them by the Professors under NDA, but I cannot talk of them before they will publish a report, if ever, since they worked with the funding of a third party that wanted to know if the Rossi Effect exists beyond any doubt.
    For this reason, they reproduced the reactor in the laboratories of the Uppsala University and followed the instructions contained in my patent. They wanted to avoid the complications generated by the infrared temperature measurement and measured the energy produced by simple calorimetry, by means of a heat exchanger and with liquid water.
    I know the measurements have been very conservative, always considering only the lower values of the margin of error of the instrumentation.
    I think I can say all this, because obvious.
    I cannot absolutely add any further information. I will be able to comment the results only after such results will have been made public.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.