Zurich E-Cat Conference Thread (Day 2)

Here’s open thread to discuss the events of Day 2 of the Zurich E-Cat conference.

The live stream can be followed here here

At the moment Andrea Rossi is answering questions from the audience. I did not catch it all but he did mentions working with someone from Siemens

On transmutation from nickel to copper — when they started work, Rossi and Focardi thought that this transmutation was at the heart of this process, now they have changed their thinking. Rossi is convinced this is a side effect that comes from the production of low energy gamma rays. Copper is produced in only tiny amounts — ‘picograms’. Transmutation is not the main process. His theory has ‘substantially changed’.

Now they are extremely focused on producing electric power — not doing primary research on using materials other than nickel. He says if they can make electricity they will be able to adapt the system so they can create an infinite COP — fulfil Nikola Tesla’s dream. He wants to make a difference in combating poverty as soon as possible.

Question time now over. Much applause.

22passi.blogspot.com has a link to a slideshow in which Siemens is mentioned as a partner helping with the hot cat: http://22passi.blogspot.com/2012/09/e-cat-in-corso-di-sviluppo-con-siemens.html

  • We now have close ups of the speakers. AR has his own headset mike, so his audio much better 🙂

    • Marius

      Crystal NTE distributor for western Switzerland

    • jedslater

      Great audio today 😀

    • georgehants

      Dr. Myron Evans works with the most advanced thinkers.
      Alpha Institute for Advanced Studies (AIAS)

      • georgehants

        Low Energy Nuclear Reaction: Intense Interest in Notes for UFT227

      • georgehants

        Pekka, have you read yet.

        • Ok now looked at “Experimental advantages of ECE over the Standard Model” on http://www.aias.us. They list many known effects (Sagnac, inverse Faraday rotation, Bohm-Aharonov phenomenon, Faraday disk generator and so on) and claim that their theory is somehow better than the standard model in dealing with them – but since this claim is not detailed it’s hard to judge if this is so or not. At least the common wisdom is that these named phenomena (as far as I can see and remember) are satisfactorily explainable within standard model. There are 50 items in the list, I won’t go through them all. But by a quick look I didn’t see anything that would be a well-known problem in standard model.

  • Peter_Roe

    Anyone else left puzzled by the description of construction and the accompanying images? Four components are described, inner and outer tubes, resistors, resistor feeds. There is no mention of the active ‘charge’ as such, and no obvioous place to put it. I suppose this is considered to be proprietory info and deliberately omitted.

    In fact there is only one place it could be; inside the ceramic or fireclay carrier for the resistances – the cylindrical white object with grooves for the resistance elements. We only see one end of this (the non-connection end) in the images, and there is nothing visible other than the open ends of the channels for the heaters, so logically the connection end is probably also the ‘business’ end for the powder charges.

    My guess would be that there must be another ring of holes formed in the carrier, inside the resistance grooves and concentric with them, in which either a mixture of nickel fuel and hydrogen donor material is packed and retained by a porous plug, or perhaps alternating charges of fuel and donor powder. Alternatively the fuel and H2 donor could come pre-packed into metal tubes with porous end seals, which are inserted in holes in the carrier. This arrangement, or something very like it, seem so obvious it seems barely worth trying to hide it.

    • Alternatively, some of the outer grooves could hold tubular metal cores instead of resistance elements.

  • Patrik

    Poor Rossi. The conference is a parade of clowns. I understand why he so often describes clowns as a problem now.

    • Patrik – did you miss the part about the reports confirming the reality of the ‘hot cat’ reactor? Or does your opinion of a group of distributors actually seem more important than this to you? The time when this kind on inane and pointless comment might have some effect on perceptions is finished. Smell the coffee.

      • Patrik

        I hope your right. The report is good, but as of yet gives no confirmation unless the sigantories of it meet the press in some way in my opinion.

        The question is this, how can the most important discovery/invention in the history of humanity be presented at a conference with speakers as ignorant as this. Noone speaks english better than a fourth grader and even the engineer Rossi has by his side seem sub par on competence to any other engineer I have ever met. Me and hundreds and hundreds of crack engineers would work for free for Rossi if we were allowed to due to the fantastic implications this has for humanity. And still, what we see at this conference is a bunch of clowns. Regardless of if they talk about business or technical matters they are all obviously just wannabees.

        Having said that, I sure hope your right. Just maybe this is for real and the ultimate revenge for idie/garage research and development. Would be cool if it was, but its hard to believe for me sadly.

        • georgehants

          Patrik, what a wonderfully intelligent interpretation, we are all impressed. Well done.

        • Wolf

          Thanks for this comment, my thoughts exactly.

        • Karl

          The only clowns here are the main stream media and the science community who put their hands in the sand while Rossi is writing history.

          • Mattias

            I totally agree with you, Karl!

        • David

          Well, focusing on the language when you have such datas is very naive. Heheheheh

        • Partyyy

          Actually you dont know anything about Europe or Italy.. do you??
          Do you know that Italian TVs are all synchronized to italian language and you cant hear anything in English? All popular series, everything.. because of that Italians speak poor English..

          • Francesco CH

            So you read only b o o k s originally written in English, right?

            You have never read authors like Voltaire, Tocqueville, Cervantes, Pasternak, Goethe, etc, right?

            Maybe you did not know, but the rest of the world do the same thing for
            m o v i e s and popular s e r i e s too…

          • Johan

            He meant that in countries that uses voice overs instead of subtitles on TV, people in general speaks worse English. That is a fact.

        • geeza

          Yep. Lack of English as a primary language really held the Russians back when they put Yuri Gagarine in space.

          • Partyyy

            Good point!

          • Their achievement is all the greater because they managed it despite that serious handicap.

          • Mattias

            I thought the aliens helped out. 😛

          • Omega Z

            All the Data & Info to date on the Hot-Cat is preliminary.
            This is a certification in process & many more tests will be done over the coming weeks. The Certification is not yet complete. This presentation was for the licensee & potential investors. Not for us. Most of what was presented, we are already aware of. SGS as the certification authority is the only real news.

            As for the numbers & COP, it’s neglected a lot of radiated power to avoid disputes. Also ran in a Ramp up mode thru the test. Like stomping the pedal to the floor in your car from 0 to 60. Mileage not so good. Improves drastically when you level off & cruise at 60mph.

            There’s already been improvements made since these tests were performed.

          • LCD

            Okay your saying this based on what information?

            When the hot cat information came out, myself and a lot of technical folk i think assumed that the temperature was being reached was due to more “nuclear-type” reactions but that report makes it sound like the drive temp was increased with very little increase in LENR output.

            I guess i thought the COP of 6 WAS A CONSERVATIVE estimate. OF COURSE its still early and only a fool would make solid conclusions one way out another at this point but the hydro fusion comments are not good for the hot cat anyway.

        • Barry

          LENR is hitting the marketplace. For all of you skeptics out there, you can still hang on to the idea that the biggest scam in the history of the earth is going on. You also might be right about us never landing on the moon too.

          • Thinks4Self

            The biggest scam in history is still currently going on. It is called Hot Fusion power research. 60 years later and 250 billion spent and not a single milliwatt of energy produced above what was needed to generate the reaction. If the money had been spent on solar cells even at the cost of $10 per watt we would have 25 Gigawatts of clean power generation hardware installed world wide. Enough to provide over 90 Terawatt hours of power each year.

        • Hampus

          Welcome to the real world were every one don’t speak perfect English. I bet the people that are there speak fluent Italian, French and German that’s pretty usual in Switzerland.

        • Jim Johnson

          The Martin Fleischman Memorial Project, fusioncatalyst.org, and Replication Cookbook (at LENR CONNECT) are looking for volunteers.

    • Julian Becker

      I really don’t understand what this German guy wants to tell us. Right now he speaks about some bio farming…

      • georgehants

        Could it be that he wants to tell us about bio farming –

      • Many of the distributors will be coming at possible apps from various different angles. Cheap process heat from ‘Mk 1’ industrial e-cat heaters will be ideal for things like waste processing, fermentation and production of algal and other biomass.

  • Tangled Connections

    Just before the copper question, Rossi admitted they are still having problems controlling the output of the single e-cat module. Did anyone else catch all of this? Does this mean the home unit is not ready till they fix this? Does this explain why the industrial 1MW unit is much further along the certification process?

    • Good questions, unfortunately I cannot answer. Only a comment: recently on JONP he mentioned about some exploratory tests of small 200-300 W devices. Maybe one motivation why he does that could be to split 10 kW (home unit power) into some 30 smaller units and thus get better control authority like in the 1 MW case. This is only my speculation.

      • Tangled Connections

        Yes I see how that could work with the smaller units in that config. Thanks. I had thought Rossi stood out among his competitors because he had better control over the reaction. Maybe he doesn’t . His accomplishments are still huge. I am only slightly disappointed personally because of a possible delay to the delivery of my home unit. 🙂

        • jedslater

          Me too 🙁 but what is a little delay compared to “this doesn’t work” scenario 😀

          • Tangled Connections

            You’re right I was only joking…. Like most everyone round here I am more than a bit excited about what is coming. Delays are unfortunately inevitable

    • Renzo

      He probably refers to the 600° ecat

      • Tangled Connections

        Maybe but I don’t think so. The answer came from a question on whether any of the 1MW plants had a single core fail. So it was in the context of the lower temp 1MW unit made up from 10KW modules.

        • Renzo

          Well this explains why he decided to sell 1MW plants with rows of modules instead of single ecats. The redundancy and control mechanism level out all small variances in output of single modules

          • Tangled Connections

            And also maybe why defkalion went with multiple smaller reactors.

          • Still, the controllability of single units is probably not awful, since selling home units was and still is his business plan (although waiting for certification now). Had he seen stability/control issues as formidable, he wouldn’t have taken that route around Nov 2011.

          • Mattias

            I agree, Pekka. Hyvä! 🙂

  • jedslater

    I can see all the oil guy’s running screaming around in there offices! Shut them down, SHUT THEM DOWN!!!!! 😀

    • jedslater

      Solar and wind are in BIG trouble too… damn need to look for a new job 🙂

      • Garry

        You can be an e-Cat installer. 🙂

        • jedslater

          Yeah, That is what I hope for, also don’t need to slave to pay my electricity and heat bills 🙂 great news anyway for all mankind…

        • I hsve purchased a dpmain name, ecatinstall.com…

          • Mattias

            That’s smart. I wish you luck! 😉

          • AstralProjectee

            We think this is something, just wait till when Rossi starts selling those babies to everyone. I can only imagine the debate that will go on. And probably for a long time afterward.

            I have to give credit to Rossi though for doing this. I am still waiting for the silver bullet though to pierce the mainstream ego into bits and pieces.

      • RGCheek

        Invest in National Instruments who will be making the panels for the LENR devices. They are a publicly traded company.

        • Andrew Macleod

          It was stated long ago that NI will not supply the controls for ecats. They are too expensive for mass production.

      • No, wind is no trouble at all – eCats are not half as good in killing birds, spoiling vista, driving people crazy, selling natural gas, rising power bills and fulfiling other green agendas.

  • Barry

    Good presentation going on on desalinization. 8:25 eastern time zone USA.

  • hammerskoj

    A brochures has floating few seconds on Passerini’s pages and now is gone:
    Siemens is a partner. Prudence. We need confirmation.
    Now confirmed:
    Quick note, page 2, last row.

  • barty

    Does anyone know what’s the scientific magazine who will print the ecat testreport?
    Was SGS involved in the testing?

    I wasn’t at home yesterday evening, so I didn’t get it…

  • Francesco CH
    • Andrew Macleod

      Interesting! I can’t read Italian however the pictures are easy to follow.

    • Francesco CH

      4. E-Cat cogenerazione termico-elettrica (Hot Cat)

      In corso di sviluppo con la Siemens AG

      – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –

      (In course of development with Siemens AG)

      it is the final line on page two

    • Francesco CH, could you share some context info of this PDF? Was it presented in Zurich and by whom (Aldo?)?
      It was already written on JONP since some time ago that Siemens-Sweden is working with him concerning the turbine so in that sense this information is not new. But it’s a question of how much “third party” is the one who is telling about it (best of all would be a Siemens person of course).

      • Francesco CH

        Unfortunately, Rossi was supposed to present it yesterday…but he simply forgot to do it!!!

        (Understandable behaviour, because it was about midnight local time and all the people were extremely tired)

        It is a just a brochure, however it is well written, detailled and full of data and projections. Completely translating it… is not an easy thing!

        E-Cat Australia, or some other distributors, should translate it into English and use it to promote the E-Cat in the English word!

        • Patrik

          I followed this over the Internet stream. But I have to say that this was the most amateurish conference I have ever seen. Every and all speakers with the exception of Rossi gave me the impression of being incompetent.

          Lots of talks of what you could use an e-cat for, but the most important issue wehter it actualy works or not was totally abscent. Infact I know nothing more about that aspect than i did over one year ago.

          That noone of any talent or skill appeared here even since its well over a year ago since this story has been in the news spells bad news in my opinion. I am sorry to say that I have changed my stance, a year ago I believed Rossi had something, today i certainly dont.

          • jedslater

            I think you’re wrong !! all indicators show that this is working, but we only have the smoke from the gun, didn’t see the gun yet, sure we will in due time as this is a great revolution in energy production and it will have a major impact down the chain, so they properly need to be careful, just remember how wind and solar started now a billion dollar industry…

          • Karl

            You seem to have misunderstood the purpose with this first re-seller conference. What do you expect after 23 years of scientific denial and media suppression. Be happy that there are some people with courage to help Rossi bring this forward for the best of humanity.

          • Patrik

            Why resell something that I cannot buy. I would buy a 1 MW plant today if it was available and it is not.

          • jedslater

            It is?? you can buy that today!! it is the domestic unit that is delayed…

          • Patrik

            No you cant, I have tried. Just try to buy one 1MW plant and you will see.

            I am on the board for a real estate owner, we need to heat 400 aparments in Sweden. And we have ordered and wanted one for a long time now. You can not buy one I assure you.

          • GreenWin

            Patrik, it appears your application is for multi-family home – and there is no certification for such domestic use.

            If you want to buy a 1MW unit for a real industrial application (manufacturing, heavy or light industry) the certification announced yesterday is applicable.

          • Johan

            If you claim that it is possible to buy a 1MW plant, I think you should be able to give examples on costumers that have received such a plant. My definition of buying something is of course then a transaction of money AND product.
            It is really strange if there are no verified customers when you can buy the product since it is obvious that there is no lack of demand.

          • Ivan Mohorovicic

            I found this interesting image from one of the latest 22passi comment feeds:

            It looks like “Cures” (Domenico Fioravanti, if this is his real name) made thermal measurements during the test mentioned in the Peron report. Or that others used his laptop.

          • Wolf

            Not really “independent” if an old buddy is doing the measurement…

          • Ged

            That image there does not appear in the report, from what I saw. Remember there were two tests. July 16 and August 7th. The report is from August 7th and is a repeat (replication) of July 16. Cures leaked the July 16 info, which is why Rossi had to do it again with a different party.

          • Ivan Mohorovicic
          • Ged

            Hah, I was thinking about page 10, but looks like the image you posted was lifted from page 12.

            We can’t assume the generic “Cures” here is the same as the internet forum Cures of Domenico Fioravanti, but using that name does provide excellent cover for leaks.

          • Heine

            Maybe old news – but this press release from HydroFusion worries me. Is it the reason why Magnus Holm backed out from the conference?


            Hydro Fusion witnessed a new independent test of the high temperature ECAT prototype reactor on September 6th in Bologna. Although no full report has yet been received, early indications are that the results of the July 16th/August 7th reports could not be reproduced.

            Hydro Fusion cannot at this stage support any claims made, written or other, about the amount of excess heat generated by the new high temperature ECAT prototype.

          • That is indeed a rather curious news item, from a company that supposedly represents Rossi in the UK and scandinavia, and also runs ecat.com. I would have thought that keeping quiet until they had all the information was a commercially preferable option. It’ll be interesting to see what else they publish.

            Holm recently said: “In particular, we want to be as officially linked to Rossi as (closely as?) possible in order to capture as much commercial interest as possible through Ecat.com.” He is not going to capture much interest with statements like the one on the Hydro Fusion site.

          • mcloki

            Seems odd that this HydroFusion site is dormant for such long periods of time. And they just reuse graphics from old presentations on their site. I suspect their credibility.

          • Red_Baron

            We see that the image of the report is called CURES in electronic directory. Maybe it’s not a leak but a premeditated disclosure by rossi or authorized by him. I think the leak is a parallel authorized information.

          • Ivan Mohorovicic

            You’re willing to believe that Fioravanti shortly met with Rossi in the 70’s, but not that, according to both of them, they didn’t meet again until 2011. Why?

            Or either your meaning of “old buddy” is different than that of most people.

          • Wolf

            An “Old buddy” to me is someone that you have known for a long time, independent of how often you have seen him during this time frame. So of course, perhaps Rossi and Fioravanti were regularly drinking a cold beer together, not just in 1970 and 2011.

          • Loop

            Great catch Ivan

          • Karl

            If you listen you can buy a 1 MW device. If you are not satisfied they offer money back guarantee. This was just mentioned by one of the speakers.

          • Patrik

            No you cant. I have tried. This is just not true.

          • Karl

            Have you approached the Swedish partners of Leonardo? I should guess their stands about accepting orders may have been strongly related to certification issues. You should not give up. I have also thought that this kind of multi-dwelling application could be quite an ideal application for the 1 MW E-Cat.

          • atanguy

            Have you approached the Swedish partners of Leonardo?
            Patrik,if you are serious,you understand that we have no way to know,you should persist and try to get an unit for your buildings and keep us posted with the Rossi’s representatives responses.

          • GreenWin

            With “Implied Consent” I re-post this poignant comment from Redford:

            Redford on September 9, 2012 at 6:47 pm

            ” but that there has been no verifiable third party substantiation.”

            Sure. Rossi also spoke Ouzbek the whole conf and his skin was purple. Hello ?
            We have 3 names of 3rd party with consistent resume signing a report confirming announced results. We have the name of big, credible certification company which has certified the industrial e-cat.

            If you think this is the same than october 2011, you could add that it’s the same than january 1st 0000, as it imply you just don’t have any sensible criteria for progress.

          • pete

            I wasn’t able to follow the conference.

            Could you please cite the 3 names, what they signed(approved?) and what makes them 3rd party. Btw are their resumes accessible online eventually (link)?

            Can someone (not Rossi and co) confirm the name of the big credible certification company?

          • Ged

            Check yesterday’s thread, on the reports which have the names. Renzo found both people, and some others, on-line. All backgrounds check out stellarly. SGS is the purported certifier. All your questions have been answered if you’d look.

          • pete

            Which yesterday thread do you mean exactly.

            All I see atm is: “Rossi said this, Rossi said that”.

          • This is again promising and with an eye industrial sales results.

            There has been a shift in the direction of the debate toward the
            industrial hopefully with no effect on the domestic e-cat timeline
            apparently delayed singularly by the UA certification.

            I find it harder to stay focused when at least two of the promising
            new energy solutions suddenly hit a brick wall at the finish line
            this year (South African generator in April and Plasma-Erg in
            September) and some others have shifted plans with more reasons
            given for delay. I have no doubt that cold fusion/LENR will be
            practical but it is harder to predict who will be first.

          • Ged

            … Please don’t make me do everything for you. http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/09/high-temperature-e-cat-report-published/

            The names of the two authors of the two part of the report are printed on it. You can see it with your own eyes.

            I’m not trying to be rude of mean in any way, but… seriously… Just look.

          • Ged

            Oh, technically too, -both threads- yesterday. So pick one, you get the knowledge you want. But looking at the reports is easiest, no having to wade through comments.

          • Ged, I think you may be wasting your time trying to educate ‘Pete’. He is not interested in information, he is trying to make the usual ‘skeptic’ debating points.

          • Peter

            Are you kidding me? Amateurish? I’m an IT security analyst, and I’ve been to a lot of conferences on the subject over the years. This conference was as good as to be expected for a first ever… EVER of it’s kind.
            People acting like this are missing the point here. This is a new technology. Do they know everything about it yet? Hardly. But are they discussing and sharing what they know with one another? Sure, of course. Give it a break. Wait for it to develop.

          • GreenWin

            Let’s also consider that in years before people who have tried to introduce such alternative energy technology have met with a variety of misfortune. Let’s not pretend naivete. These men and women are taking a risk far greater than $$$.

          • jacob

            What do you have Patrik ?

            To share with the world,to make it a better place to live,negativity and lack of knowledge in your case will keep you where you presently are,I encourage you to look outside the box,and find some truth and Knowledge.

            LOVE is creative, doubt sits on the fence,negativity and hate destroy.
            ” jacob”

        • Patrik

          The so called engineer that is on stage with Rossi now, how on earth is it possible that in all this time Rossi has not found anyone better? This guy is absolutly not helping Rossi if Rossi indeed has something. He ha no credibility what soever as a chief engineer, and I have seen a few. Rossi could have had anyone, everone I know would like to work with this.

          • GreenWin

            Patrik, I suspect we are all getting a lesson in humility. We have good evidence from Blacklight Power that verifications from scientists with gold star credentials make no difference to myopic skeptos.

          • jaques

            Did anyone noticed why Magnus Holm was absent? According to the programme he would talk about the E-cat in Scandinavia and UK. Since he is a professional poker player maybe he has called the bluff?

          • Several people failed to do their turn I think, but I don’t think explanations were offered (they may have been – I don’t speak much Italian and would have missed anything like that).

            Its a shame about Holm – I wanted to hear whether anything significant was happening in the UK.

          • Alan DeAngelis

            No credibility? They’ve actually made a nuclear reactor. Perhaps Rossi would have been better off if he used some of those gold star engineers who’re about to give us (any day now) hot fusion.

        • Barry II

          I disagree, CEO of Dobler Heiztechnik was professional performance, however with bad numbers. He calculated costs and so with old CoP 6, no with new reality of lower CoP. So all numbers was wrong

          • GreenWin

            Barry II, it is only the COP 6.0 product that is for sale at this time.

        • DaveS

          Francesco, is the Siemens announcement the big surprise that was to happen today?

          • Francesco CH

            You have to ponder that it is the first time that the name of Siemens is written in an official document.

            However, I see that this information has been “played down”… Probably it will require a bit more time to be taken more seriously. Further documents from Prometeon concernig this and other issues will follow suit in a very soon future…

          • Francesco CH

            ehm… in the very near future

    • “1. E-Cat heat to power
      Ordered and available – Minimum output*: 1 MW
      *orig. italian, taglio, = ‘cut’ or ‘cut-off’

      2. E-Cat heat with gas (Gas Cat)
      Confidential Information (from) HydroFusion

      2. E-Cat heat with gas (Gas Cat)
      We accept pre-orders – Minimum output: 1 MW

      3. E-Cat Electric stand-alone
      In development – Minimum output:> 10 MW !!!

      4. E-Cat heat-power cogeneration (Hot Cat) Being developed by Siemens AG”

      “Version that works with power supply

      Ideal for adding to existing cogeneration systems thanks to the low cost of electricity produced in-house

      Good payback period for those who make use 24 hrs/day for 350 days a year

      High return on investment (ROI): the saving obtainable is around €130,000/year

      No CO2 (emissions) taxes (none produced)”

      And quite a bit more. I hope an English version will soon be available.

      • GreenWin

        Peter, I expect we’ll see a pilot project with a gasco (possibly in Japan) with number 2. This is a “hybrid” and Tokyo Gas is already involved in a large test of NG-fired micro-CHP technology.

    • Wolf

      There is actually no new information in this. Rossi dropped the name of Siemens already some times before, still no confirmation from Siemens on this. So neither news nor proof.

      • Keep on banging that ol’ drum. Someone, somewhere may eventually listen.

      • Jim Johnson

        Wolf, please offer an alternative explanation for the Zurich conference, other than the near-term availability of a real commercial product with the general capabilities stated.

  • Bruno

    Reading these blogs is like smoking crack. Addictive but without any benefit. We know as much today as we knew after Rossi’s October 2011 test. What we knew then and know now is that Rossi is making claims but that there has been no verifiable third party substantiation. We know hardly anything about the scientists & engineers who wrote the report. We don’t know who they work for (Rossi?). We have no idea of their independence. Their methodology is difficult to follow. It would have been so much easier to heat (but not boil) water and measure the mass flow and temperature change. They only show 8 hours of data. Most of the skeptics who post in these blogs are not pathologically negative (or part of a conspiracy to discredit LENR). They just see a suspicious pattern of behavior on Rossi’s part. Tests with holes, performed for too short a period of time by people whose credentials and independence are unclear.

    • You really ought to make more effort to break the addiction Bruno. Why don’t you just try doing something else, like knitting or pulling the wings off flies, rather than posting here? Just aim for a week or two at first. Every extra day is a victory.

      • Garry

        That was mean! 🙂

        But funny.

        “Pulling wings of flies”. You ruined my keyboard from laugh-splattered coffee.

      • GreenWin

        Peter, knitting is far too distinguished and productive a pursuit.

    • jedslater

      I totally agree, but we do see that “He” is on to “something” I really hope that he will get the proof and verification by 3rd party, on the table soon so that we can buried the skeptics and move on!!

      • GreenWin

        One wonders if there is endemic blindness to the big river in Egypt. Or if jeb et al are merely on- script.

    • freethinker

      Maybe I see things that are not there.

      Maybe you need to open your eyes.

      LENR is real, and Rossi is *very likely* the one who has brought it furthest and in the end will deliver.
      There is still room for it to be a scam – I admit, but that room is now shrinking at an alarming rate. Don’t get stuck in there. Its bound to be worse than a bad crack trip.

    • Andrew Macleod

      *facepalm….I guess some people will never believe until he does a test their way. If Rossi was dancing to everyone else’s tune we wouldnt see anything for centuries, the report was pretty clear in method and data. The testers creditentals were on the cover page. It’s pretty transparent.

      • Patrik

        I have got to ask you. Are the two signatorys known to you? Can you show me where to find information on them? I would like to email them or read an intervju with them about their report.

        These persons are extremly intresting right now, why could they not have appeared at the conference for instance?

      • Andrew Macleod

        I’m really getting tired of the same old song and dance from both sides of the coin. Rossi leaves enough ambiguity to create controversy feeding the sceptics, a very tiresome game.

        • Ged

          Most controversy are people not paying attention or not being willing to look up information to answer their questions, so we see the same things over and over again.

        • GreenWin

          I agree Andrew. The script here has become pathetic – reading like those ridiculous American Presidential elections, or rigged sports events, or people hiding their true identities. There are some mindsets that suggest seeking entrance into the universe will be a great disappointment – as even the “evolved” are cynical self-serving solipsists.

          GW out.

    • If this was Siemens or Exxon or some other giant, you would know absolutely zilch about what was happening, who was testing, or anything else. They would share not one jot nor tittle of information. So don’t expect Rossi to give away the store just because you’re curious. That’s not how it works. I put on hydrogen trade shows once or twice as year called the HHO Games, and we could give these guys lessons in amateurishness. But we have fun! Our developers of onboard hydrogen technology for cars and other vehicles share a lot, but certainly not everything.

      • Well said, Joe (it needed saying, again). The repetitive petty carping by certain ‘skeptics’ is becoming quite irritating. We ‘watchers’ are privileged to be invited to watch these events, which history will remember.

    • Jim Johnson

      What the skept-addicts have not done is present even the slightest trace of an alternative scenario that would explain the body of facts represented by the existence of the conference, paper, previous statements by people who have seen Leonardo devices, LENR in general etc.

      Come on, guys, the least you can do is start with a *general* scenario about how all this works together, that is *not* based on real technology and a real commercial endeavor. You could start with just a few explanatory sentences about why those people are in Zurich, how they got there, what they think they’re doing, and so on.

      The biggest sign that the skept-addicts are just playing handball with themselves, starved for attention and/or are in the pockets of LENR opponents is that they don’t offer any other explanation of events.

      Of course, there is the danger that any alternative scenarios would be difficult to work out, and that in attempting to describe such an alternative scenario they might appear foolish.

      But I would be willing to read what they offer, if they would offer anything besides one liners. In fact, I think it would be very entertaining!

    • jacob

      After watching all information for some time now,it seems
      clear now the E-cat will be used behind the scenes by industry
      and increase profits for energy providers,but the little people will keep paying through the nose for continued high cost of energy ,it seems decisions have already been made behind the scenes again by our honorable politicians and safety organizations to keep it away from home owners on the argument of safety? even though open flames NG and OIL and coal seems to be no problem,even though houses blow up from NG ,people die from CO poisoning and many homes burn down from flue fires and is considered by their safety standards as save.

      The USPA and UL are ruled by self and conflict of interest,it’s all a big mess, and nobody is assigned to clean it up.

      I wish all well ,and what goes around comes around,never fails.

      We have technology that has not been released for almost 60 years now, if known by all without doubt would open the eyes to the world.

      Those that seek this knowledge will find it after much research only !

      The Hope of tomorrow rests with those who gain this truth and design and built free energy generators and sell them in secret,with out waking up the big dogs , do not apply for any patents on these devices and operate in the black market and the cash trade and bartering will be bring profits.

      • georgehants

        From today, others are working.
        Hydrotron @ Hydrotron_lab I see that you are many to follow us spread the word your input is crucial!

      • Renzo

        don’t worry, I think your fears are completely unfounded

      • Jim Johnson

        “WIN”, when turned upside down, spells “NIM”: “no immediately miracles”.

        Maybe Rossi is not the fastest route to the greatest worldwide benefit from LENR. Maybe he’s gummed up in commercial necessities.

        I still feel like there’s way too much money involved (~$1.5T worldwide annually) in the energy business to suppress LENR in any meaningful way, once the basic phenomena is widely accepted. The “powers that be” are just individual power-hungry capitalists and business executives. They are not monolithic. They don’t have some private internet that they use to plot the suppression of LENR. They just all try to protect their investments, as part of gaining more money and power. There are plenty of them that will abandon the establishment in an instant as soon as they see a faster route to that next tier of wealth they so crave. This happens endlessly in Silicon Valley, where, to be certain, there is a great deal of interest in alternative energy.

        Other than a commercial product (which from the conference, doesn’t appear to be that far off) a key to the breakout of LENR energy in the world is widespread replication of LENR anomalous heat, comparable to that shown in the Celani NI Week demonstration.

        There are some very strong engineering minds on this site. And there are some very good opportunities to contribute to the establishment of the acceptance of LENR through the development of a widespread replication process.
        > Martin Fleischman Memorial Project: quantumheat dot org
        > Fusion Catalyst: fusioncatalyst dot org
        > Replication Cookbook Group (at LENR CONNECT)

        If you take a look at these sites, you’ll see that the Celani technology is really not that complicated. Turning it into something that can be replicated in hundreds (or thousands) of laboratories (and machine shops) around the world is not that far out of reach.

        Mostly what it needs is more engineering thinking, like that shown on this site.

        There are three kinds of people. Those who make things happen, those who watch what happens, and those who wonder what happened.

        Widespread, verifiable LENR replication can be made to happen.

        • jacob

          Jim,how about adding a fourth kind ,Those who never heard of LENR before !!

      • Stanny Demesmaker

        What’s important to highlight is the fact that the report that Rossi provided us, is exactly the same what Rossi has been saying to us all the time.

    • Redford

      ” but that there has been no verifiable third party substantiation.”

      Sure. Rossi also spoke Ouzbek the whole conf and his skin was purple. Hello ?
      We have 3 names of 3rd party with consistent resume signing a report confirming announced results. We have the name of big, credible certification company which has certified the industrial e-cat.

      If you think this is the same than october 2011, you could add that it’s the same than january 1st 0000, as it imply you just don’t have any sensible criteria for progress.

  • GreenWin

    Roger Green speaking on assisting Africa. Bravo Roger!

  • The live stream audio is much better now. It’s only the foreign languages that make listening a bit frustrating. And those ads are bloody annoying 🙁

    • Francesco CH

      To avoid the ads, you have to install Adblock Plus

      • barty

        The congress is over now.
        Let’s see what is coming the next week in the media.

        • GreenWin

          Nothing. Silence. Following orders. Witness BlackLight Power CIHT validations from 6 highly qualified scientists (MIT, Cal Tech) a mainstream PR Agency press release… silence. Orders.

          • georgehants

            GreenWin, perhaps people can now understand how many other forbidden subjects are kept from the World.
            As long as they get soap operas and football many understandably don’t care, but for the more educated person it is amazing how easily they fall for the brainwashing.

          • barty

            didn’t they say at the beginning of the conference that there is a tv team present?

          • georgehants

            Probably from some children’s school, the only one’s bright enough to realise what is going on.

          • GreenWin

            Indeed George… “A children’s song… and the children know the way.” wilson/parks

          • Omega Z


            At the ICCF in Korea, All the Media was invited. They were under the impression that at least 1 was going to do in-depth coverage. They didn’t show. NOT ONE.

      • GreenWin

        Just for the fun of it I have recreated the dialog following the famous test by Robert Oppenheimer at Trinity Site July 16, 1945:

        General Groves: Whoa… That was BRIGHT!

        Oppi: Sure was!

        Groves: But, a bright light isn’t what we’re hoping for.

        Oppi: There was also lots of heat.

        Groves: Okay, but heat I get in a desert!

        Oppi: And a lot of energy!

        Groves: I get energy from an electric socket.

        Oppi: And a 19 kiloton shock wave!

        Groves: I get that with TNT.

        Oppi: We have the data…

        Groves: Okay, look, we’re no further along than that thing you showed us in Chicago. Get back to work and let me know when you’ve got something I can wrap my hands around! This is war son!

        • Very funny stuff.

        • Jim Johnson


    • GreenWin

      The (1MW Industrial e-cat) Safety Certification from SGS-Swiss is for all Europe. SGS would only certify IF the e-cat conformed to their demands. Many changes in design and construction were demanded and then met by Rossi’s team.

      This makes sense as SGS is a large, well established safety assurance and testing company – especially in energy production and exploration.

      • Patrik

        ok, this is confirmed? Does this still only apply to industri or can we buy it here now in Sweden to heat aparments. Today we have district heating wich is way more expensive.

        We have already ordered from Magnus Holm wich should be distributor in Sweden. And one should note that according to Rossi the 1MW plant was buyable one year ago, we ordered it then.

        Perhaps we could take delivery now then, interesting. We should have several installtions up very soon then should this be true. I fear however that it isnt, there always seem to be something that hampers delivery.

        • Karl

          To my experience Rossi is mowing extremely fast when he goes from prototypes to real products. You should be more patient. This is a revolutionary new technology that can change the world in so many ways.

          • georgehants

            Frank in another place the Webmaster became obsessed with the number of comments he received and allowed the quality to fall in the gutter.
            You have jfab on page that will create the same effect once a few of them get going.
            You will notice that no fair people are now commenting beyond answering this person.
            Having had a gut full of these people, I will say no more until he has gone and not back in another guise.
            Thank you.

          • jfab

            Alright, I’m tired of this anyway.
            I’ll stop commenting. All I can say is I’ve been down that road (of believing without seeing) and have been quite disappointed in the end (Steorn’s fiasco). I’m 100% sure the E-cat could have been easily proved to work a long time ago, a proof that everybody would have accepted. Since it’s not what happened, for me the case is closed, Rossi is a compulsive liar and is hurting badly the LENR legit science.
            May you all be right. We shall see. Meanwhile, enjoy yourselves!

        • jedslater

          http://ecat.com/ecat-products 1 MW power plant 4 month of delivery, if they can’t then you should post the reply?

        • GreenWin

          Patrik, as I noted earlier, your application, multi-family residential heating – is NOT an industrial application. It is domestic heating which requires a separate Certification still in process. From my understanding you may purchase a industrial 1MW ecat today for delivery TBD, and purchase is subject to customer acceptance/test prior to escrow close. Seems fair to me.

          • Partyyy

            Patrik is only a troll.. just leave him…

      • GreenWin

        Hotcat WILL run at 1050C self-sustain for 50% of time, raising COP beyond the 2.2 indicated by the report.

      • daniel maris

        Where is the confirmation that SGS were involved?

  • Methusela

    According to 22passi the ecat is being developed by Siemens.


    • Renzo

      as Passerini anticipated this not the official endorsing by Siemens yet, it is a brochure from the italian licensee where it is stated that Siemens is collaborating to produce electricity

  • This is OT but of some importance.

    Some time back I fought the battle of the E-Cat article on Wikipedia but found it too frustrating and in the end even enfuriating as there are some very tenacious editiors that really, really don’t like cold fusion articles in any way, shape, or form. Their obnoxious behavior have driven off the more moderate people and as a result have had their way and have written a very twisted article.

    Here is a paragraph from the article that portrays the involvement of Hanno Essen, and Sven Kullander in the E-Cat as if they are passive observers and not experimentalists that were actually involved in a test in an active way:

    “Swedish physicists, Hanno Essén and Sven Kullander stated that if the claims that they had read were true, then it has to be a nuclear reaction. However the claims that they had read kept secret the catalysts in Rossi’s device. Kullander said it was important “to consider the experimental facts and not indulge too much in speculation about what could happen in theory”. Saying measurements must be made accurately and independently, which is not possible in this case, as “You have to rely on Rossi that he is true to what he conveys and through discussions with him we may try to conclude how reliable the measurements are.”[27] [28]”

    How pathetic is that? I really can’t understand why the administrators at
    Wikipedia allow the abusive behavior of that gang but I have the impression that those thugs have friends in the form of a few administrators.

    Please consider going to the article, read it and vote on its truswothiness,
    objectivity, etc. at the bottom of the page.

    Please be honest


    • Kudos for trying, Zedshort. I’ll do as you suggest.

    • jfab

      Zedshort, this is taken from an interview that circulated a while back in which, indeed, these gentlemen acknowledged they didn’t take an active role in the E-cat tests, but relied exclusively on “Rossi says” and distant observations. It has nothing to do with wikipedia admins, skeptics or whatever, it’s their own words.

      • georgehants

        jfab, link please or we can assume you have just made it up.

        • jfab

          You mean you don’t know what video I’m talking about?!?!
          Come on, are you being dishonest? We ALL know this video very well!


          excerpt 0:32
          “In this case, you have to believe in the inventor Rossi, who says […]”

          excerpt 1:17
          “But the problem is that Rossi […] won’t release any details.”

          excerpt 1:26
          “It is unknown what the reactor looks like inside”
          “The process cannot be scientifically grounded.”

          excerpt 1:38 VERY IMPORTANT ONE
          “The question now is the reliability of the information *WE* have been supplied.”

          excerpt 1:46
          “We need to continue to monitor the development, because *IF* the experiment would turn out to be true […]”

          And SO ON…
          As far as I know, these guys aren’t talking about the E-cat anymore, no news from them apart from the “ashes” analysis, which was not positive because of the presence of suspicious Cu isotopes (I think the (63)Cu isotope).

        • Sailawaybobby

          I wish it to be real. The truth is that if it was, it would of already disappeared as would of Rossi himself. We are totally owned by big oil and the NWO.

          • Almost like saying that we cannot be alive since if we were, there would be others alive as well in the vast universe and since we don’t see them, we are dead as well.

            Anyway I guess your comment was a joke, if so then mine is continuing it.

      • jacob

        May those that pin all hopes on the E-cat home units,now realize it will not come to market for a long time ,but also know E-cat technology works very well ,but is going to be regulated and COP’s of E-cat’s kept lower, to not anger the big dogs.

        • I think that may be right, unfortunately.

        • Mattias

          I don’t think so. I think that public demand will make Andrea Rossi and other LENR people the biggest dogs and they’ll eat the old big dogs! 🙂

          PS. Having a higher COP than your competitors will also be an advantage.

          • Mattias, I’m afraid that by and large the public let the MSM do their ‘thinking’ for them. and as far as the ‘news’ is concerned, the e-cat does not exist. Without knowledge there can be no demand.

        • GreenWin

          Yeah, Mattias has the ticket. In fact I was just putting the final touches on my Big Dog Stew recipe. I’m putting it in my new Cookbook: “When Old Dogs Don’t Hunt – EAT ‘EM!”

          BTW, my recipe calls for Habanero Chili Peppers and a dash of Ghost Pepper (very rare and hottest in the world!) Mmmm… dinner time approaches!

          • I’ll buy your cookbook when I see ’em on the meat counter! But I think most of them will be far too wily (or nasty) to get eaten.

    • georgehants

      Vortex have a string on Wiki-rubbish.
      Re: [Vo]:Wikipedia E-Cat article for deletion
      Alan Fletcher
      Sun, 09 Sep 2012 11:37:12 -0700
      From: “Kelley Trezise”
      Sent: Sunday, September 9, 2012 9:31:22 AM
      Some time back I fought the battle of the E-Cat article on Wikipedia
      but found it too frustrating and in the end even enfuriating as there
      are some very tennatious editiors that really, really don’t like cold
      fusion articles in any way shape or form. Their obnoxious behavior
      have driven off the more moderate people and as a result have had
      their way and have written a very twisted article.
      I think it’s just time to give up on that wiki. Brian Josephson gave up. I gave
      up (Alanf777) . Others gave up.
      It’s so distorted that it’s better just to delete it.
      If and when something happens (and is reported in the main stream scientific
      journals and/or media) then it can be reconstructed — one way or another.
      http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/maillist.html

      • georgehants

        Jed Rothwell
        Sun, 09 Sep 2012 13:08:12 -0700
        I think it is best to delete the article. I wish they would delete the
        article on cold fusion.
        Wikipedia is dysfunctional and cannot be fixed. The problem is in the
        structure and guiding philosophy.
        – Jed

  • daniel maris

    Doesn’t sound like we are even one millimetre forward. We still seem to be living in the world of claims. Where is a video of a working E cat Home Heater for instance? Has that been shown?

    • Karl

      Obviously a number of trusted people have seen it before and now the new development and the stunning report by reputable about the hot cat. I think we should be grateful for the show Rossi has done and today. I do not consider that Rossi own us anything special unless we have a confirmed order of an industrial 1 MW E-Cat.

    • Claes

      Don’t know what you expected out of this beyond a SGS certification? Until two days ago the rap was “all we need to see is a third party validation!” – then when one came it’s “we’re not one millimeter forward”.

      Who promised a working home heater at the conference by the way? What would a video of one tell you?

      • Mattias

        I agree, Claes.

  • jedslater

    They “just” need to get a unit working AND ready for the market! when the orders starts to tick in and a positive case flow begins in the company it will run by it’s self, no way in H*** they can terminate that, it would be like stoping a big wave. Just give me my two units so I FINALLY can cut the grid….

  • Nixter

    Many posting here, both for Rossi and against Rossi, are missing an important angle, it is clear that Rossi is not interested in making scientifically correct reports to convince supporters, scientists, physicists or skeptics of anything. He wants to convince future customers, licensees and vendors, and not much more than that. He has stated repeatedly that he is working hard to bring a workable functioning product to the market, trying to convince these other interested parties would substantially detract from his stated goal, to make a working e-cat and sell it. Both the skeptics and fervent supporters are at odds with Rossi in this regard. I admit his methodology is a bit strange and unconventional, but it is his invention, he is self funding most if not all of it, and he will most likely not be swayed by any of us here or by anyone anywhere. All the rampant speculation and criticism is pointless until and unless the hardware is examined and validated by third party entities. As long as A. Rossi is working without proper Patent protection you can expect him to safeguard his exclusive Intellectual Property by limiting it to a select few. I did think that by now we would know more than we do, it is frustrating, all of these months, years, and still we wait,… Let this bizarre event play itself out, don’t let Grandma invest her life savings into this yet, but be ready for anything.

    This is a once in a lifetime event, either Rossi is a deluded crank, or the inventor of the Century, savor the moment, wait for the conclusion, either outcome is interesting.

    • GreenWin

      Nixter, see Redford above. This is not rocket science.

      • Alan DeAngelis

        We should find a new analogy. Rocket science is pretty old, well understood, Newtonian mechanics. Rocket science isn’t “rocket science”.

        • Garry

          This isn’t quantum physics.. Oh wait…

    • Ivan_cev

      I See the effort to bring the Ecat to the market rather inefficient. If Rossi did a serious well designed public test, inviting press, an scientific community then investors will came with trillions of dollars to put the technology in the market fast.
      I find Rossi way a bit cumbersome.

      • Jim Johnson

        “investors will came with trillions of dollars”…to find a way to do it without Rossi, having access to his un-patented technology.

        • ivan_cev

          You want to patent a perpetual motion machine? is possible!, just show the device.

    • Nixter, your conclusion is certainly on target, as are your points about third-party validation. But one can question whether it benefits anyone (including ultimately Rossi) to be so secretive or to focus on trying to make financial profits directly from patenting the device it it truly works as well as suggested (being as you say the invention of the century if it works, not just some run-of-the-mill incrementally slightly better mouse trap). Here is an alternative perspective on that in a comment I posted yesterday, suggesting why such information could be freely shared, since it may well mean the end of economic scarcity as we know it — which would make amassing profits in fiat dollars or euros from a patent on the e-Cat fairly pointless in the long term:

      A document linked in that comment includes a note I sent to Andrea Rossi back in January 2011 (via his Journal website). This is the beginning of that and a bit from near the end:
      When Martin Fleischmann and Stanley Pons made their original cold fusion announcement, I sent them a copy of the book “Midas World”. It is a collection of science-fiction short stories by Frederik Pohl on some of the socioeconomic implications of cheap fusion energy. It includes a funny satirical story called “The Midas Plague”, originally published in 1954. Wikipedia has a page on the book, which reads in part: “… in this new world of cheap energy, robots are overproducing the commodities enjoyed by mankind. So now the ‘poor’ are forced to spend their lives in frantic consumption, so that the ‘rich’ can live lives of simplicity.” In that imaginary world, only the “rich” get to have small homes, eat plain food, and work a lot both to help other people and in their small gardens; the “poor” are condemned to living in mansions, eating vast amounts of fancy food, being entertained endlessly, and are not allowed to do meaningful work for others or themselves — all to make an old-fashioned scarcity-based economic model still work out in an age of cheap energy. 🙂

      In the last chapter of the book, there is a section quoted from the inventor’s diary on his bitter disappointment about how humankind used his invention. He had hoped cheap fusion power would liberate humanity for a life of contemplation, creativity, or even just loafing around (see also Bob Black’s essay “The Abolition of Work”). But instead that fictional world ended up with “a snowmobile in every driveway … and a dune buggy plowing up every patch of sand”.

      The inventor said he was shut out by large corporations etc. from advocating positive ideas about the social issues relating to his invention of cheap fusion energy, and his aspirations for humankind’s social uplift. While he got a lot of money from the patents, the cheap energy soon made everyone rich in material terms, and so being financially obese did not mean much anymore. Fortunately, even though the inventor was pessimistic, humanity did expand into space habitats eventually in that fictional world (given room in the solar system for quadrillion of people in habitats built from asteroidal ore), and one could hope such a human proliferation (or even better robotics and AI) would bring some wider social diversity along with time for reflection by some individuals on a healthier relationship between consciousness and the universe.

      I’d recommend reading that book just for some general insights into the social and economic side of cheap energy (and some laughs for stressful times). As it is a satirical novel, I’m not saying its predictions are going to be 100% true (I sure hope not), but it is a useful cautionary tale to read none-the-less. James P. Hogan’s hard sci-fi novel “Voyage From Yesteryear” is another good book on a similar topic, about the collision of a society rooted in scarcity assumptions with a society built around abundance assumptions and cheap energy. …

      So, when you think about the financial aspects of your innovation, please consider that fundamental things may change with cheap energy. Please consider how the scarcity-based economic model we all grew up with still govern so much about how innovations such as cold fusion are created, discussed, and distributed. Please consider that a scarcity-based economic model, and all the thinking and fiat-dollar-based financial conflict that relates to it, may be made obsolete very quickly by the rapid spread of a cold fusion innovation.

      Sure, some people may get rich in fiat dollars in the short term by speculating on nickel futures (until cheap energy and cheap robotics drives down the price of all commodities). [Or maybe not, if it does not take much nickel.] But ultimately, the bigger issue is encouraging a broad social transformation in a healthy way that makes the world work for everyone. That is something that will ultimately be about a lot more than a few bits flipped in some computer memory representing a bank account somewhere, and which Frederick Pohl suggested in 1954 would ultimately be meaningless in an age of cheap energy and cheap robotics. …

      So, we need a paradigm shift to account for all the technologies of abundance that inventors like yourself are giving the world. In days to come, if people ask for your opinions about what the implications are of your invention, I hope you reflect on these words. …

      Here is a quote emerging from Lila Watson’s work as part of an Australian Aboriginal Group that may help put any efforts to help the world in perspective: “If you have come to help me, you are wasting your time. But if you have come because your liberation is bound up with mine, then let us work together.”

      • Tony76

        Another greart post.

        Judging by the zero response it looks like we are already heading for Midas World. Corporate and mainstream media politics will ensure it.

        There is some post on e-catworld from a “crack engineer” who said he and his buddy crack engineers would work on Rossi’s project for free if he would open up the project wider.

        As far as I know, all the energy claimaints apart from Pirelli School are pushing and jostling for patents and mountains of fiat bills. This, is occuring whilst the military prepare a conflict in the Middle East over “energy” (lack of).

        You are a true visionary Paul Fernhout.

        • Tony76, thanks for your kind words in this reply and the other reply to the previous article, including your insightful point that the Pirelli School people get it (as do some others if you google on “open source ecat” which brings up “Fusion Catalyst” as one). And thanks to the others who replied as well.

          It’s been said: “If I stand so tall, it is only because I stand on the shoulders of giants.” In my case, it is giants like Theodore Sturgeon, James P. Hogan, Bucky Fuller, Ursula K. Le Guin, Daniel Quinn, Albert Einstein, and many others who have written deep thoughts about the relations between society, technology, and economics. Also, others like Doug Lisle have written about “The Pleasure Trap” that a society or individual can fall into and get stuck in if not careful; that helps in understanding the irony of how our natural inclinations attuned to certain types of scarcity may not serve use well around certain types of abundance — unless we develop new new wisdoms out of which flow new patterns of healthy behavior. Psychiatrist Donald Pet has a great website about that, inspired by an Albert Einstein quote, called “A Newer Way Of Thinking (ANWOT)”.

      • ccatt57_77

        So now the conference is over, what can we make of everything that has been reported the skeptics are not convinced and there was no definitive demo but the report looked good on paper – whats to make of all this?

      • Karl

        Interesting thoughts. It may be time to start to seriously think about human life after the emergence of almost free energy.

      • “So, we need a paradigm shift to account for all the technologies of abundance that inventors like yourself are giving the world.”

        True enough – but that doesn’t mean we’ll get one in the near future. There have been many technological revolutions in our society in the historically recent past – industrial farming, mechanised production, industrial steam power, self propelled ships and railways, telephone and radio communications, digital computers… The ease with which each in turn has become embedded in society has depended on the balance between losers and gainers (as perceived by same) and the power of the individuals concerned in each camp. The end result is always the same of course – the new technology is adopted and society changes to accommodate it – but initially there may be problems.

        The extent of the problems in this case will depend on exactly the same factors; who will lose – (principally energy producers who cannot/will not adopt CF [most energy producers are owned by the banks], market traders and manipulators who profit massively and directly from energy markets [principally the banks], and governments which depend on energy revenues including ‘green’ taxes) – and those who will gain (more or less everyone else). While there is a massive imbalance in numbers here, it is unfortunately the former group that holds nearly all the power – the banks and their tame governments.

        Through political control and ‘influence’ the very rich have indirect control of police forces and military power across the world. This is not the stuff of a peaceful and orderly transition, it is the stuff of revolution. The bankers and their puppets will never voluntarily relinquish the power they presently enjoy, nor will those who become aware of the propsperity that CF could make possible be able to let abundance pass by, and settle for indefinite financial servitude. Those who currently run the world will continue their attempts to head off CF by means of propaganda, but sooner or later this will become untenable, and stronger methods will be needed if they are to preserve the status quo. I can’t see any negotiated settlement being possible; one side or the other must prevail, and I think the transition process may become quite difficult.

      • Nixter

        I am a big Sci-Fi fan, I make time to read every day. Science Fiction in its many forms is a prime factor in promoting advanced technology in our modern society. The average person cannot “Think Big”, like a top Science Fiction Author can, they inject concepts and mental imagery into the collective consciousness of Earths population, and that literally “sprouts”, into actual advancements, manifesting into new ideas and pushing forward a evolution into state-of-the-art hardware.

      • Steven

        In addition to cheap energy and robotics, another factor is 3D printing, which is on a trajectory to becoming a Start Trek style replicator technolgy. Your post is absolutely correct.

  • Ivan_cev

    I have been reading other blogs, and some people is pointing out the measurement of radiated heat using the total area of the device is WRONG, the internal area of the tube can not be used as is self absorb, and a factor of about 0.2 should be used for this area, How came the certifier does not know that?
    Is he a professional in the area or is just a newee making a silly mistake, Many of us make mistakes were talking about a field we not familiar with.
    This is giving me a very bad impression.
    Rossi I think if you continue doing this you will cause a huge damage to the LENR research field.

    • Ged

      Erm… Let’s do the math ourselves instead of listening to folks, since we have the raw data. (Hint: those folks are wrong, the calculations are basically correct as far as I can compute them)

      Diameter of outer cylinder was 0.08559, divide by 2 for radius = 0.04280 m . Height = 0.33 m

      Surface area of cylinder, but without top and bottom = (2(pi)(radius))(height) = (2(pi)(0.04280m))(0.33m) = 0.0887 m^2. The camera can see half of that, so 0.0444 m^2 for one side of the cylinder is the surface area.

      We’re doing black body radiation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_body_radiation

      So watts per square area (j*) = stefan-boltzmann constant (s) * temperature (t)^4

      j* = (5.67 * 10^-8)(1066 C + 274.15 = 1340.15 K)^4 = 182892.84 W/m^2.

      Actual power produced (P) = (j*)(surface area) = (182892.15 W/m^2)(0.0444 m^2) = 8120 W of power from one side of the hot cat when at a temperature of 1066 C (max); or 8.12 kW.

      Notice, this calculation is ONLY USING black body radiation of heat in the wavelength of light as detected by the infrared camera to determine temperature.

      Notice too, this is taking peak power, not integrating power from across the entire temperature curve; so this is not a measure of energy.

      The value seems to agree well enough with their stated max output power of 8.4 kW. But they were able to account for some convection, which I am not.

      So, it seems those people you are listening to are -incorrect-. The calculations as done here using the raw data from the Errata slides and ONLY considering black body radiation, matches within 320 W of the value given in the slides for peak power.

      • Ivan_cev

        This is not my area of expertise, So I am not sure why to use 1/2 of the Area, the argument about the internal area or the cylinder is that the cylinder is long so lots of the energy is retro-feed into the device so the radiation only happens at he extremes this is why they propose a factor of 0.2 for the internal area of the device. (The thinking looks reasonable to me) but I am not versed in this subjects.
        What I will love to see is measurements against a control device, this will put all arguments off. even better see the device and control device making real work like heating water.

        • Ged

          Radiation is -not only at the extremes-! That is ridiculous. Black body radiation happens wherever there is a temperature.

          No idea why they say anything about the inner area. Notice that is completely irrelevant for the black body calculations I did.

          But yes, you’re completely right that it’s best idea to have a control, then we don’t have to deal with many of these issues, as we can just look straight up at the temperature differences of control versus active hot cat.

          edit: Oh, I guess by “at the ends” they are talking about radiation by the inside surface? In that, it would just get absorbed by the steel again unless it’s at the ends and thus exposed and can radiate away from the device? That’s irrelevant if one only considers the outside surface, which is all radiating away from the device. And I’m not sure how good the steel is at reabsorbing photons it emits from the inside surface. That is just.. crazy complex. But 0.2 does seem to come from anywhere, nor do I see anything that makes sense of that number; neither based on the surface area of a cylinder at the ends or anything else I can see.

          • Ivan_cev

            I see what you mean , you only using the external area of the device, and the camera only sees half of it, and you not using the internal area of the cylinder.

            We should all petition Rossi please use a control device when making test!!!!

          • Ged

            Here here!!

          • Lu

            The tests are one validation. Operating plants will be another:

            Dear Luigi Versaggi:
            The main stream media need to see plants in operation: they will be satisfied soon.
            Warm Regards,

          • Miles

            They can’t sell something without documenting & testing. Some people need to have faith.

          • Lu

            According to Rossi, they’ve already sold plants. And according to Rossi as I just quoted, we will see them soon.

          • I suspect that heat emission from the inner tube is actually quite large, especially from convection, as very hot air leaves the upper part of it and is replaced by ambient air entering from below. In addition, although there must be some self re-absorption occurring in the inner cavity, the open ends mean that the entire inner surface is actually in line-of-sight with an exit route for IR radiation, albeit at highly oblique angles to the internal surface.

            Although these factors have rightly been ignored as they are not measured, I think that better calorimetry would probably show a significant additional output from the inner tube, and a correspondingly higher COP. As others have pointed out, this experiment was designed to eliminate a chemical source for the extra energy (which it has done), and further optimisation of the effect and more accurate measurements will follow.

          • I see that Zedshort has covered radiation from the inner tube far more scientifically than above! It should be noted though that despite the ‘shape factor’ reducing the emmissivity to c. 20% of a fully exposed surface, the inner tube is much hotter than the outer one, which may shift this figure upwards.

        • Ivan Mohorovicic

          What I will love to see is measurements against a control device, this will put all arguments off. even better see the device and control device making real work like heating water.

          For what is worth (although I don’t see why one should not trust what he says, he’s proven to be quite reliable), Cures wrote that this is planned (“in calendario” meaning “in program”. lit “in calendar”. See here).

      • Ged

        I suppose that the take away message here is that there are several different ways to skin this cat (no pun intended). I took the simplest possible calculations and got close within 3.3% of the way more complex calculations. I don’t feel these calculations are correct. We only consider one side of the cylinder, and on the other hand, I am not considering reabsorbance, which I’m not sure how to calculate. Conduction/Convection are not considered, nor the ends of the hot cat (nor the open inner surface).

        Could be I’m off in another way, but all the calculations are there, so anyone can have at them!

      • See WP article on view factor or shape factor: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/View_factor . It is the fraction of the energy radiated from a surface that is intercepted by another surface. In the case of the inner tube, the radiation from points away from the ends and toward the mid span, is largely intercepted by that same surface giving a shape factor near zero. In the case of points near the exit of the tube, those portions of the inner tube surface radiate a fraction of about half their energy to the room and the other half to the inner portions of the tube for a shape factor of 0.5 . Hence the shape factor is somewhere between the two. I would guess at about 0.2. In other words, when calculating the energy radiated from the inner tube’s surface to the room, you must reduce it to only 20% of that calculated from the gross area. The shape factor of the outer surface w.r.t. the room is 1.0 by inspection. Please believe me I have at least one semester of heat transfer experience.

        • Ged

          But the question isn’t about what the inner tube is radiating to the outside room.

          In the report, I see them using thermal conductivity. Remember, the inner temperature is feeding the outer temperature we are measuring. This business about the inner radiating to the room is a red herring. That 0.2 value, if correct, is -not accounted for- in the calculations. It’s loss power, and means the E-cat is making more power than the calculations suggest.

          Remember, all things want to be in thermal equilibrium (not saying this for you, as you well know, but others). The inside wants to be in equilibrium with the outer surface. The outer surface wants to be in equilibrium with the room. The outer surface is where we’re measuring, and the heat from the inner surface is delayed reaching the outer surface by the thermal conductance and heat capacity. But for the calculations here, all that is ignored, and basically lost heat that is not contributing to the final power calculation.

          Again, in the report it specifically states the ends of the e-cat were ignored. That is power lost and not considered. The full power of the device is the full heating that occurred for the volume of the device. That… is way beyond the scope here.

          • Ivan_cev

            The 1066 Celsius is at the center of the device, The external temp has be be lower

          • Ged

            The center was 1200 C as measured by the laser thermometer, I believe.

          • The “ends of the e-cat” they were referring to were the annular ends that had been slathered with the putty. The radiation from the inner tube was included in the power calcs and that value should have been multiplied by 0.2 to account for the shape factor of the inner tube surface. As a result, the power out was overestimated w.r.t. that calc. They underestimated the power out by not including the convection from the surface. That was brought up in the “Eratta” but the error is small. Overall the calculations were close enough.

          • Ged

            Hm, maybe. My understanding from reading the report was the inner temp was only a factor in trying to calculate the average temperature of the entire device (hence their need for the thermal conductivity values); and then that was applied to the black body calculations. I could very well have missed where the ends were somehow factored in, but I do think I remember it saying the open parts of the caps not puttied were ignored… Hum. I wish I had time to look through it closer at those parts.

      • Andrew Macleod

        You lost me at diameter!

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        Ged: Thanks for your expertise. I have been following Rossi long enough to realize his skeptics will not be satisfied until they see their electric meter running backwards.

        • ivan_cev

          This is the end goal, isn’t

          • ivan_cev

            We just trying to shake it as much as possible, if it stands, then is true!

        • georgehants

          Agreed, what a wonderful string, thanks Ged, Peter etc.
          The most important point made by Ged —
          “Erm… Let’s do the math ourselves instead of listening to folks,” —-
          This is by far the most important Website re. Cold Fusion and as was again reported yesterday Wiki-rubbish is infested with professional debunkers and serves no purpose, except for possibly looking up the date of Newton’s death, but I would still check that information elsewhere.
          PESN has it’s own resident gang that completely stops all fair and open discussion.
          Some other excellent Websites but they do not attract much discussion.
          It will be noted that when attacked by these unpleasant people most commenters stay silent, but say they dislike the arguments.
          Just the usual few thick skinned individuals defend and as fair defense is virtuly impossible against such circular and calculated attack only the policy of the moderator can, if he wishes save the day.

          • ivan_cev

            Actually you have to be thick skinned to not to believe by faith. Science does not believe, it verifies the existence of something real or not.
            Is our duty to refuse to belive, but be convinced when the argument can not be falsified.
            This is why I will like to see tests with control units

          • georgehants

            ivan_cev, it would be useful if you would put up a name of any person on this page that is demonstrating “a belief by faith”.
            You are attacking by false implication.
            As far as I can tell we are all waiting like you for Evidence but choose to have an optimistic outlook as against a damaging negative philosophy.

          • ‘Faith’ doesn’t come into it. Any reasonable person can operate on the basis of a balance of probabilities, in the absence of ‘absolute proof’. In fact there is no such thing, and ALL scientific theory is no more than a current best fit to the available data. A good scientist is capable of provisionally accepting new data, and theorising on a ‘what if’ basis. If the old model no longer fits it should be modified until it does. Only a bad scientist will continue to deny a thing until it becomes undeniable through the work of others.

      • Robert Mockan

        I did not see a calibration chart for the camera, with a correction factor applied to the particular surface they are using as a heat radiation source, to allow for the variance from a pure black body radiation source. Without that their measurements could be several percent off. Also when one has a discrepancy between different electric power measurement indicators, it is NOT all right to just use the numbers that seem to make sense, and discard the others. Using an ammeter and voltmeter for AC power measurements is also incorrect procedure. Electrical noise and power factor variation from a pure resistance can also insert another few percent error into AC power measurements. Finally, where are the error bars on the charts showing the data? Where are the scatter plots? As much as people would like these tests to be definitive, they are not given the poor data accumulation. What we are being shown as far as data is concerned would not be acceptable even for a college physics class experiment.

        • Ged

          Very true, there are some controls missing that cause the error range of the data to be increased. You bring up very important points.

  • Barry

    Thanks Frank.

  • georgehants

    I cannot find a single report from any known source on the conference.
    One from a fringe Website.

    • Martin

      Just wait until the report is being pubished in a “scientific magazine”. Muahaha, it won’t happen, I guess.

      • It certainly won’t make any mainstream publication, TV science slot or anywhere else it might come to the attention of anyone who is not actually looking for it.

        Lets (probably generously) assume that by now, 10,000 people are following the story. The adult population of the world numbers about 3 billion. So that is 10000/4000000000, i.e., about 0.00025% of the world’s adult population who know about CF. Even if I’m a factor of 10 out in the number of ‘followers’, it hardly makes any difference. This is how TPTB are playing the game at the moment.

  • georgehants

    Information from Cold Fusion Now.

    Breakthrough Energy Movement Conference Organizes Paradigm Change
    September 10, 2012 Ruby Carat Events, James Martinez
    An international conference sponsored by the Global Breakthrough Energy Movement (GlobalBEM) will be held November 9, 10 and 11 in Hilversum Holland highlighting new energy science and technology.
    The program will feature LENR, as well as advanced physics concepts in hybrid energy sources, noble gas and plasma technologies, magnetics, and zero point energy and is dedicated to Dr. Brian O’Leary, an astronomer, planetary scientist, and Apollo-era NASA astronaut who later embraced new energy technology becoming the founder of New Energy Movement [about].
    GlobalBEM started as a volunteer driven group and non-profit organization in 2011 “to educate and bring awareness to the general public about breakthrough energy technologies, which are clean, sustainable, abundant and world-changing.”