More on the First Hot Cat

This is just a quick post to follow up on the previous one. I was curious about where the first 1 MW Hot Cat plant might be installed, so I asked Andrea Rossi via email about it. Rossi had said that it would be made in the United States, and I wondered if that meant it would be installed there also. Here is his response to my question:

This will be decided by the US Partner, who has activities in all the Globe. You can write this. We will deliver in the USA, anyway.

I take this to mean that the plant will be built in the USA, and delivered to the customer here — and they will install it where they choose.

I realize that some will take this as just more ‘Rossi says’, but really this is what we have to go on for the time being. I am as eager as anyone to get information from others, and to see E-Cat plants working and producing useful energy. But I am also prepared to wait until the big pieces fall into place, and get as much information from whatever source I can in the meantime. People have to decide for themselves how much trust they put in Rossi’s statements. Speaking for myself, I am comfortable taking him at his word, understanding that not every projection he makes will be realized exactly as he anticipates — which is normal in business, as well as life in general.

  • Iggy Dalrymple

    I had the same question and assumed he meant built and installed in the USA.

    • KenLebrun

      Sweet so what we have so far is. The buyer makes large power plants, is based in the US, Is an international enterprise, and is not military.

      So with that any ideas on international US based power production companies?
      Like General Electric maybe? Like Rossi says, Large companies, Very important deal. What company shaking hands with Rossi would bring about his level of excitement? Any ideas welcome.

      • Might it just be the old buddy Siemens.

        • Methusela

          More likely national instruments.

          • Otherwise could be, but I don’t think they make large power plants.

          • Omega Z

            Methusela

            Pekka Janhunen

            I Don’t think NI builds plants at all.
            Mostly Electronics & Software.

          • Jos

            In Florida we have NextEra Energy Resources

            http://www.nexteraenergyresources.com/home/index.shtml

          • daniel maris

            Why don’t you ask him why there are no photos or videos available of the latest products – the E Cat gas IMW heater and the Hot Cat – in operation?

          • Ged

            We’ve seen the individual hot cat pictures in operation (visible and IR), but would be very interesting to see the new 1 MW version. Hope we get a leak of that soon!

        • Al D

          Or Westinghouse.

      • Peter_Roe

        GE would be my guess too. Rossi says “US Partner, who has activities in all the Globe”, so this seems to eliminate Siemens, as they are based in Europe and would not be a ‘US Partner’. As others have said, NI don’t make power plants, so they’re not a contender, but there are plenty of other possibles such as AG Group, Pratt & Witney, GSM, IPPE etc., or perhaps an international CHP manufacturer like Dresser-Rand (CHP makes a lot of sense in connection with e-cat technology and might attract ‘green’ tax breaks).

        The location of the pilot must be the US, as this is the primary market outside Europe that Rossi would need to penetrate, and in any case, manufacturing in the US for shipment elsewhere would not make commercial sense from several POV.

        • Warthog

          Westinghouse?? GE’s at one time prime competition.

          • Peter_Roe

            Their main business is nuclear, so they seemed to be an unlikely candidate – but you never know.

            It’s interesting that they recently bundled up all their directly nuclear-related facilities and hived them off as a subsidiary, Westinghouse Nuclear, so Westinghouse Electric Company may be preparing to cut the new subsidiary loose at some point, in order to isolate their decommissioning and waste storage obligations, and potential liabilities arising from leakages and other accidents.

          • Krish

            fyi, There are Siemens-engineered power plants in the U.S.

          • Krish

            Toshiba (North America) is another possibility.

          • GreenWin

            Toshiba owns Westinghouse nuclear IP. The commercial Westinghouse was absorbed into CBS Television – which is now a separate entity. They license the brand name to consumer electronics makers.

        • phlarbeer

          What is the secret to Rossi’s success in maintaining secrecy from his workers? Mostly one would expect to find at least one worker who has a mouth like a torn pocket, but not so Rossi’s workers, or affiliate/s (?) company’s workers, nary a sound. A remarkable effort when all’s considered.

          • Jim

            No secret. Silicon Valley has long experience of workers keeping secrets in anticipation of large financial payouts.

            I imagine them trembling with desire to confess all to their sweethearts, and then imagining their future Porsche’s vanishing before their eyes.

            “Deposit slips seal lips”.

          • Grek

            Have you forgotten Cures? His lips were not so well sealed.

          • V ee dee

            Hypothesis exist, that Cures (Fioravanti) is not employe of Rossi, but military entity.

            He supposedly not sighed NDA to Rossi.

        • Omega Z

          Peter

          This wouldn’t rule out Siemens. They have a hugh footprint in the U.S. Probably more so then G.E. as G.E. has most of there operations outside the U.S. Either way, these are the 2 Big boys on the Block.

          We really don’t have enough Info. It could be a Power plant Builder/Contractor or 1 of many other possibilities. Even a Power Corporation.

          • Peter_Roe

            Omega

            Yes, obviously I’m just stabbing in the dark! I suppose that if you take Rossi’s phrase ‘US Partner’ to mean ‘Partner in the US’ then Siemens’ US subsidiary would be a logical candidate, especially given some of Rossi’s earlier pronouncements.

            That would also result in easier technology transfer back to Europe, via Siemens’ manufacturing network, i.e., it would be next to impossible for anyone to prevent this taking place even if it was seen as politically desirable for ‘National Security’ reasons (i.e., getting a jump on everyone else).

            I guess we’ll find out what has happened within Leonardo Corp eventually.

      • Gerrit

        instead of thinking about a energy suppling company, maybe we should think about a (heavy) industry company who has his own “power” plant to ,make industrial heat to run the process.

        Chemical, Refinery, Metal, what else ?

        There are many of those that “have activities around the Globe”

        Anything that Rossi said that excludes this possibility ?

        • Ged

          Aluminum manufacturing is extremely energy intensive, and very sensitive to the market energy price. They would flip head over heals for a cheap source of electricity like this.

        • NJT

          Apple Computer has VERY deep pockets, is a major energy user presently trying to go as green as possible with its energy usage, especially here in the USA with huge data centers now being built. Just another guess as well as a Google client…

    • Torbjörn

      “This will be decided by the US Partner, who has activities in all the Globe. You can write this. We will deliver in the USA, anyway.”

      I take this to mean that the US might not be the first to get the Hot Cat plant.

  • Vudu

    Because English is not my primary language, I need some help with this:

    A) Rossi public statement: “we are shipping E-Cat plants to non-military customer just now”

    B) Few days later Rossi public statement: “but soon we will deliver civil plants”

    This is some sort of secret services/intelligence play games or what ?
    How way you may take seriously such man ?

    • Vudu

      update: actually A) is: “Actually, we are manufacturing our plants and delivering too”

    • Karl

      Don’t wast your time to TROLL here.

    • John-xyz

      My guess, it’s a language issue. Yes, these statements are contradictory. Rossi needs an interpreter. I’m willing to chip in $10 to help hire one. Any other takers?

      • Peter_Roe

        Vudu is pretending to be having difficulties understanding so that he has a pretext to make one of the standard negative comments that are being endlessly repeated by the shills on this blog. His purpose is simply to try to generate doubt and uncertainty among casual readers.

        When comments like this appear, it is often a good idea to look at the previous posts made by the commenter. If they are relentlessly negative, and all essentially try to make the same couple of ‘points’ then this is indicative of a troll attempting to implement an agenda.

    • Jim

      “Because being ethical is not your primary approach to life…”

    • Ged

      Shipping happens before delivery. Especially shipping of a cargo container, that’ll take many days before delivery (let alone installation after that). So, on face value, there is absolutely no contradiction in the statements.

      Nice try though, try to read English better next time 😀

  • andreiko

    Each company where also the globe is duty the E-cat and/or Hot-cat to follow because the competitive differences between though and not owners will be dramatic.

  • georgehants

    “I believe in intuition and inspiration. Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited, whereas imagination embraces the entire world, stimulating progress, giving birth to evolution. It is, strictly speaking, a real factor in scientific research”

    ~Albert Einstein

    • jacob

      well said by Mr.Einstein

  • Perhaps The customer Is Fiat-Chrysler, rossi sign whit Sergio Marchionne

    He just made an odd statement about revolucionary energy deal. Oct 30 in italy fiat headquaters

    • Peter_Roe

      A car maker would seem to be unlikely, but the ‘energy deal’ announcement sounds interesting. Any more detail?

      • artefact

        Do you have a link?

        (( just maby its because of plasmerg (on December 11, 2012 at the Power-Gen conference in Orlando)
        Or because of Quentron. ))

        edit: response was ment for Omar Gomez

        • Ryan

          Yeah, the Quentron thing really came out of left field for me. It sounds interesting so I’m really hoping they have something showable and provable on the 19th to display. If true it would be a massive change from our current power structure.

      • Gerrit

        Does Fiat Chrysler run any power plant on one of their sites that could be described as a “big power production and distribution plant” ?

        Could make sense …

    • captain

      If not Fiat-Chrysler, ENI or Ansaldo Energia?

    • GP

      hi Omar, do you have a link for that statement?

    • V ee dee

      Because Hot Cat starting time is 4 hours, it is highly unlikely, that Fiat want Hot Cats.

      More probably is deal with Defkalion – their reactor starting time is 1-2 minutes.

      • Peter_Roe

        “Hot Cat starting time is 4 hours” Just like the COP was 6. Rossi has been playing down how just how advanced the hot cat is.

        • Ged

          In fact, if we look at this picture on the Prometeon site… http://www.prometeon.it/image/Image5.jpg

          There’s no slow ramp up delay there (only a few minutes to max temp), it’s just boom and on.

        • Robert Mockan

          Probably. If heating it to operating temperature is the issue then he could do that by using more power from the external heat source to do it faster. And if the slow start up has something to do with hydrogen concentration or diffusion in the catalyst, he should be able to do one initial start up sequence, then keep it just below the “on” state for later much faster thermal power generation.
          Actually if one is going to be using steam power on short notice the reactor would need to be idling all the time anyway to keep the boiler hot. Otherwise getting steam pressure up would have other delays.

  • Brenie

    To all best wishes, we must give rossi the benefit of our doubt.
    He is the one who has inspired a whole new attitude in pursuit of new energy.
    I imagine at some point he stood back and said ‘this is impossible, lets do it’

    Regards, Brenie.

  • georgehants

    The idea seems to be to increase the workforce and funding for a technology that has failed for 60 years, Hot Fusion.
    Maybe just a couple of these people moving to Cold Fusion may be wise.
    —-
    From Physics Today.
    Fusion could fuel particle physicists’ future
    In response to Persis Drell’s commentary on the present state of the US particle-physics program (Physics Today, June 2012, page 8), I would like to suggest that one possibility for its future direction may be found just a few pages later in the same issue (page 25). The US fusion program has stalled, partly because funding is now going to ITER, but also because of a lack of new ideas for how to get the job done.
    Having worked a bit in both fusion and particle physics, I can appreciate how the programs relate. A fusion reactor, by any fundamental description, requires expertise in almost every area covered by high-energy physics: Confining the plasma is a problem for quantum electrodynamicists, getting the nuclei to fuse is a problem for quantum chromodynamicists, and I’m sure there would be something for the weak-force folks to do. By focusing its efforts on the design, construction, and operation of a working fusion reactor, the particle-physics community can make itself beneficial to humanity and relevant to the American taxpayer, thus ensuring a healthy level of funding for years to come.
    http://www.physicstoday.org/resource/1/phtoad/v65/i11/p10_s3?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+physicstoday%2Fpt1+%28Physics+Today+magazine%29&bypassSSO=1

    • clovis

      yep, George,
      nice article , i liked this part at the last.

      By focusing its efforts on the design,
      construction, and operation of a working
      fusion reactor, the particle-physics community can make itself beneficial to
      humanity and relevant to the American
      taxpayer, thus ensuring a healthy level
      of funding for years to come.
      Rob Johnson
      ([email protected])
      Alphawave Research
      Jonesboro, Georgia

    • “Confining the plasma is a problem for quantum electrodynamicists” Quantum electrodynamics has nothing to do with fusion plasma, the confinement problem is just classical plasma physics (Vlasov equation and classical electrodynamics). The role of strong interactions in laboratory hot fusion is well understood, no open questions of practical importance there. And the weak interaction plays no role in laboratory hot fusion.

      The situation is different in supernovae and neutron stars. There all four interactions (strong, weak, electromagnetic, gravity) are relevant and quantum phenomena occur too, because the matter is very dense.

      • georgehants

        Pekka the four forces are “understood” only from measurement, what is behind and gives birth to those forces is of course completely unknown.
        Science on every occasion keeps the conversation in limited terms to cover up it’s complete lack of knowledge from outsiders.
        When I talk of mathematics my mind goes straight to Gödel’s incompleteness theorems and the terrible problems that has caused to the subject.
        Many mathematicians simply ignore and hide it’s implications and carry on as if everything is known and o.k.

        • True, but the text was claiming about practicalities of energy production. I don’t see why particle physicists (which is relevant and interesting basic research) should move to hot fusion plasma physics at large, which is a domain they do not understand and which might also be a dead end from the applications point of view. Although plasma physics is also interesting as a basic research, for example, we still do not understand many of the shapes of northern lights, etc.

          • georgehants

            Politics, money, that takes us into never never land and almost no hope of untangling, which is why I find good science so Wonderful.
            Which is why I am so disappointed every time scientists make science look foolish.
            Northern Lights and so many others things are not understood, but watch one of the propaganda displays on t.v. etc and ordinary people are conned into believing that “scientists” have answers to how the World works, way beyond the little basic areas that very clever scientists are familiar with and of course are capable of marvelous achievements.
            The unknown, like Cold Fusion is the challenge that should make a true scientist jump for joy, for all scientists to join in the celebration of hopefully another small veil lifted by human ingenuity.
            Instead many human frailties intervene and we are left with a display of nothing less than insanity.
            It is the UNKNOWN in science that is it’s lifeblood, not keeping ourselves chained to the few simple little areas that we think we know something about.

          • clovis

            Well, said, my friend.

          • jacob

            great comment 🙂

          • Robert Mockan

            If anything might knock Rossi off the top of the hill for new energy, it is going to be Black Light Power.

            Over at Vortex-1 a link to the Mills patent on their hydrino battery just got posted. You guys might want to take a look at it. Note that his battery generates over 5 times electric power input, and the output is electric power directly.

            Because the E-Cat has a thermal output that needs conversion, it takes an E-Cat COP 20 with 30% thermal power conversion to generate the same useful electric power out the BLP hydrino battery does with COP 5. In addition the E-Cat needs an engine and generator. The battery is going to be a hard act to beat.

            Here is the Black Light Power patent link:

            http://www.sumobrain.com/patents/wipo/H2o-based-electrochemical-hydrogen-catalyst/WO2012138576A1.pdf

          • Robert Mockan

            Correction: If the E-Cat and the battery both supply the electric power to power itself, then the E-Cat only needs COP 16.7 at 30 percent conversion. In each instance that provides 5 units of electric power out, and 1 unit of electric power is sent back to the input, for a total of 4 units of useful electric power out that can be used elsewhere.

          • V ee dee

            Robert, CoP=5 with electric output is excellent,

            only 2 problems: it is not so that output from one cell is 20 milliWatts ? and one cell with 20 milliWatts output not costs 5000 dollars ?

            Where are some realtime news or forum about BLP ?

          • Robert Mockan

            There are a few popular forums where BLP is discussed. For example here:

            http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/SocietyforClassicalPhysics/message/639

            (I linked to one of my messages a few years ago to show the level of discussion that goes on there. I have not visited it for awhile, but believe it is still active).

          • V ee dee

            After boringly shrudded 230 pages of patent, I understand that BLP has output

            8 milliWatt i.e. not 1,5 kW

            from 8mW to 1,5 kW is as long was as Steorn’s from 350 microWatts of Waterways demo to 000 of electricity today and 40 kW of heat at their artificially braked (for min 18 months, although max no more then 3 years) HephaHeat for exchange for 2×25 mega money.

            I love these folks, much, really.

          • Robert Mockan

            Validation demonstrations have used a 10 watt battery with 1.5 ampere output at greater than 6 volts. For example discussed here, page 12:
            http://www.blacklightpower.com/wp-content/uploads/papers/CIHTElectrochemicalCell.pdf

            Giving power per square centimeter per cell is a standard way to compare fuel cell electrodes, and numbers indicating such was claimed in the patent using one of the many combinations of cell design.

            Power scales linearly with number of cells in series (increases voltage), and electrode surface area (increases current). Combining cells make a battery.

            The demonstration BLP cells all work on the principle of using electrons, released from ionized hydrino catalyst during the formation of hydrinos, as reagents to effect chemical reactions in the electrolyte composition, resulting in ion currents during recombination that can be harnessed for electric power output.

            BLP does not reference other technologies in detail that relate, but to understand the patent better one should study fuel cells, other conventional batteries, and solvated electron applications.

          • GreenWin

            Robert, apparently you haven’t heard. Mills and all 15+ patents of his are all a fraud. They’re an elaborate hoax just to fleece unsuspecting grannies and ignorant half-wits out of their life savings. In fact, only investors willing to invest their entire life savings are solicited. That’s just how mean Mills & Co. is. Oh, and those “validations” according to JoshuaCude none of the scientists are qualified nor did they actually do any testing. Another fraud.

            Sheesh, with all this fraud going around the Amazing Randi Foundation hasn’t time to disabuse us of it all!

          • Robert Mockan

            My original reply got moderated, and may not appear. (Too many big words?)

            So, here is my abbreviated reply, that will probably pass moderation.

            Look deeper.

          • NJT

            Robert
            It appears that BL should have their demonstration 1.5 KW unit operable by the end of this year. It looks like they are well protected with patents both pending and already issued here in the USA and worldwide. If the product performs as stated, you are right, it will put Rossie’s hot cats sucking hind teet so to speak in the world of first to market these fantastic energy devices…

          • Andrea Rossi
            November 1st, 2012 at 7:28 PM
            Dear Herb Gills:
            I think that the victimism is the syndrome of the losers. Mass Media are not demons, they need facts. When we will invite them to see working plants they will report what they will see.
            Warm Regards,
            A.R.

            Note: This particular thread of JONP is for some reason not included in rossilivecat.com

          • freethinker

            I base my view on MSM on own experience. They are maybe not demons in the proverbial sence, but they are for sure NOT free agents basing their action on some high moral principle of truth. Sorry AR. Be aware of the dark side of the force…

          • Ivan_cev

            a Dead e_cat jump!

          • georgehants

            Mr Rossi for some clearly personal reasons, is not taking into account the distorted Media coverage of proven Cold Fusion.
            He is just referring to E-Cat coverage.
            It would seem he does not wish to alienate himself from the Mass Media.

          • GreenWin

            Pekka as you well know avoiding victimization does not eliminate bullies or small minds. And to counter AR, he invited a “reporter” and photographer from the AP to his October 28th demo. We are STILL waiting for AP to explain why they never wrote a story.

          • Omega Z

            @ NJT
            @ Robert

            I’ve been watching BLP for a long time. I determined long before their recent validations that they had something working.

            But, I would be shocked if they get something close to market this year. Even next year. Talk about missing target dates. They make Rossi look like he’s going FLT. Seriously. If you have a problem with Rossi moving to slow, don’t bother watching Mills. Patients of steel aren’t enough.

            However, Many of us here are aware that the Same People behind the scenes of Rossi, DGT, Etc… have also been involved with Mills BLP. I allow the Possibility that BLP will step it up given advances being made by others. Nothing like a little competition for encouragement to speed ahead.

            @ Robert

            I think Mills CIHT is much more suited for vehicles then the E-cat probably ever would be. It’s very similar to a Fuel Cell. Batteries will still be needed, but the Lithium air batteries coming to market will be much smaller & cheaper. Mills CIHT would very likely involve a much smaller battery for start up then any E-cat system. So a double scale down of batteries needed. These CIHT’s may even be better for Aircraft & Trains.

            I see the E-cat being a better fit for Large Ships & private homes, but only because of the CHP possibilities. Covers all bases.

            I’ve said before, the more systems the better. We can use whatever works best for any given task. Also, Competition will bring down the cost eventually. Even Rossi isn’t going to sell it any cheaper then necessary. Just Cheaper then what we have. Not necessarily anything to do with Rossi as he may want to sell it as cheap as possible, But Investors/Partners don’t think that way. Unless there is competition.

            Thinking outside the Box, Mills CIHT running an H-Cat to heat your pool. Or the same combo desalinizing.
            If I recall, Mills also has something similar to the Cat.

          • Robert Mockan

            A CIHT in a plane for primary engine power would be great. Unlimited range, and water fuel from the clouds.

            The prototype plane was built a few years ago and used conventional fuel cells. A CIHT to replace them would enable flying around the globe… how many thousands of times before needing maintenance?

            http://www.fastcompany.com/1307116/first-hydrogen-fuel-cell-powered-plane-takes-skies

          • Ged

            Planes with ramscoops.. that would be interesting!

          • NJT

            Omega Z,
            I appreciate your comments as we now await the BL deadline of producing a working 1.5KW unit by the end of this year. Hopefully that will occur and if not then all this BL fluff maybe nothing more than a “BL says” which is something we are very familiar with…

          • Cryptomega

            While I am hopeful about LENR, I think it is clear that “hydrinos” are pseudo-science. The theory behind hydrinos is that hydrogen has an energy level below the ground level, allowing electrons to drop to this new low level, releasing energy. The problem is not only that this would invalidate the Standard Model, but also the entire fields of chemistry and biology. Top physicist including Wolfgang Ketterle, Wolfgang Ketterle, and Michio Kaku describe hyrdrino theory as “nonsense.”

            By contrast LENR may not require modifying the Standard Model. This is what Widom-Larsen theory does. LENR also has some support in the science community (althought still very small).

            So if Rossi has what he says he has, he does not need to worry about BLP stealing the stage.

          • Andrew Macleod

            The ecat and the CIHT will both have their share of the market. They are both amazing technologies. Looking at the big picture if someone were to use a CIHT cell to drive an ecat the COP would be crazy high, somewhere around 60?

          • Ged

            They definitely have different uses, as direct heat is important in many situations. They will compete somewhat, but they can find their own nitches to co-exist, or work together fantastically as you point out.

            This is great news though, so can’t wait to see what comes of the CIHT!

  • clovis

    HI, GUYS,
    As long as we’er guessing, i would think DOD and NASA,.
    the u.s. department of defense uses a huge amount of energy, maybe even the largest in the world,– smile–just saying.

    • Karl

      Could be but I still put my bet on Siemens.

      • Iggy Dalrymple

        Up till now I would have guessed Siemens but since he calls them his US partner, I would guess GE, United Technologies, Raytheon, or Caterpillar.

        • Ged

          Raytheon is very possible. They have hands in more things than one would think, and are behind a lot of experimental development (such as heat guns).

          • Iggy Dalrymple

            Raytheon is also implementing the Cyclone steam engine in some military applications.

          • Ged

            And since Raytheon is tied so tightly to the military (it’s a military-industrial company), the first 1 MW (or more) hot cat plant going to the military by help of this partner also seems to fit Raytheon’s M.O.

            Raytheon is also extremely secretive. Hmm.

          • KenLebrun

            I’ve worked alongside Raytheon on some R&D radar projects. They are largely military contract based but they are not the military. They are still a possibility.

    • V ee dee

      Published was “non-military customer”, so no DoD

      • clovis

        true, no wait did he say that,?

        • stuey81

          stupid question clovis, read the statement

          smile –

          stuey

    • Hampus

      NASA already wanted to buy the “warm”cat but needed to know the secret catalyst. I don’t think their policy have changed in one year.

  • Lu

    Interesting that Rossi’s reference is “US Partner” versus “US Customer.” Could be a second language issue on Rossi’s part but perhaps there is more to this relationship than just customer. A partner relationship would indicate financing and profit sharing to me.

    • Ged

      I think it may well be production sharing. Our best guesses were always that Leonardo got a powerful partner, and that is indeed the case. Since up till this point all production was in Italy, the sudden switch to “made in the USA” after this partnership was done, implies that this US partner is participating in the production efforts.

      Since the first customer is, again, the military, I would expect this partner has strong ties to such.

      • clovis

        Hi , ya’ll
        Made in the USA, I like the sound of that, about time too i’d say. –BIG SMILE on that one.- USA, USA USA,

      • Lu

        I don’t think it’s production sharing. Could be more along the lines that Leonardo provides the E-Cat and the US Company provides the generator/turbine and together they sell the product to utilities. Possible companies could be GE, Siemans US, or maybe even Sempra Energy (GE makes the most sense).

        • Ged

          That is highly possible, and the sort of set up Rossi has been aiming for since the beginning.

          I like Iggy’s idea that Raytheon may be the company, since all we know fits them a little too well.

          • Lu

            I don’t think Raytheon provides products for “power production and distribution plants” so that would be quite a stretch and probably a poor partner.

          • Ged

            Actually they do, and of course they do so geared to the military; which is where the first (or more) 1 MW hot cat plant is going towards. Most companies do not have a straight shot “in” to the military like Raytheon does (being a certified supplier).

            Raytheon does a lot of stuff, way more than I think most people know. But mostly in a shroud of low key secrecy since they don’t have to worry about the standard business models (the military is a closed customer).

            Additionally, the fact we’re aiming for deployment of a 1 MW plant less than or about a year after the first prototype development of the hot cat began (as far as we know) is a rapid sort of turn around that companies like Raytheon specialize in. Mostly due to their near unlimited budgets.

            It’s just one possible contender for who the partner is, but fits our knowledge well so far.

          • Iggy Dalrymple

            GOOGLE GREEN – “At Google, a clean energy future means investing in innovative, large-scale clean energy projects we believe can become major power sources for the future. To speed up innovation and development, we put significant funding and resources behind new technologies. To date, we’ve invested more than $915 million in the renewable energy sector, including investments in projects capable of generating 1.8 GW of power. That’s enough to power 350,000 homes. Our investments are listed below.”
            http://www.google.com/green/energy/investments/

            Plus the fact that Google has a humongous energy bill.

            “In 1946, the engineer Dr. Percy LeBaron Spencer, who worked for the Raytheon Corporation, was working on magnetrons. One day at work, he had a candy bar in his pocket, and found that it had melted. He realized that the microwaves he was working with had caused it to melt. After experimenting, he realized that microwaves would cook foods quickly – even faster than conventional ovens that cook with heat.

            The Raytheon Corporation produced the first commercial microwave oven in 1954; it was called the 1161 Radarange. It was large, expensive, and had a power of 1600 watts. The first domestic microwave oven was produced in 1967 by Amana (a division of Raytheon).” http://www.smecc.org/microwave_oven.htm

          • GreenWin

            Iggy, I often use this as an example of how fast a technology can enter the commercial market. The commercial microwave oven was designed and certified safe for industrial use about two years after product start.

          • Al S

            I have a little maybe, I think it’s the Navy!

          • Ged

            In fact, just a two weeks ago http://investor.raytheon.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=84193&p=irol-newsArticle&id=1747050

            So this is very much in their field of business.

          • GreenWin

            Interesting they’re working with Thermacore, a company Randell Mills worked with in the 1990s. Around 1993 Thermacore released this statement:

            “Light water electrolytic experiments at Thermacore show positive results. The most outstanding example is a cell producing 41 watts of heat with only 5 watts of electrical input. The cell has operated continuously for over one year…”

          • Peter_Roe

            The original Thermacore device, based on Mills’ fractional state hydrogen theory (Shaubach & Gernert):
            http://free-energy.xf.cz/H2/papers/Anomalous-Heat-from-Atomic-Hydrogen.pdf

            As I recall, Thermacore was purchased by some large corporation shortly after this paper was published, and the team was broken up by the new owners.

          • Peter_Roe

            Correction: ‘original’ team.

          • Ged

            Well, egg on my face. Just went back to look at Rossi’s statement and it seems I misread it. He said “It will not be a military application”. I missed that “not”.

            In that case, it’s quite unlikely to be Raytheon.

          • Lu

            Yes. They are playing a system integrator role for a military, next generation, tactical energy system. Energy production is not within their core business (which is all military).

        • Iggy Dalrymple

          GOOGLE GREEN – “At Google, a clean energy future means investing in innovative, large-scale clean energy projects we believe can become major power sources for the future. To speed up innovation and development, we put significant funding and resources behind new technologies. To date, we’ve invested more than $915 million in the renewable energy sector, including investments in projects capable of generating 1.8 GW of power. That’s enough to power 350,000 homes. Our investments are listed below.”
          http://www.google.com/green/energy/investments/

          Plus the fact that Google has a humongous energy bill.

          • HHiram

            This would be a perfect fit. Great for Google’s own needs, in line with Google’s wider mission, and of course a great help to Rossi in terms of protecting the property. Google has a strong IP legal department and an immensely powerful brand name, so competitors might be less inclined to try to steal the technology.

            But my guess is that this will not happen. Rossi probably has a small US partner none of us have ever heard of. He seems too paranoid to go after a partnership with a big player, probably because he fears losing control of things.

          • Iggy Dalrymple

            This is a stretch but the Koch brothers in the long run stand to lose a lot from LENR. Why not buy into LENR and hedge their bets? Koch is involved in ventures far afield from energy. David Koch spends two days a week managing Koch Membranes, a company dedicated to developing desalinization of seawater. Koch Industries are either the largest or the 2nd largest private company in the US, employing 60,000 workers worldwide.

            GE is the most likely suspect.

          • GreenWin

            If anyone spots a Rossi look alike or a man wearing large sunglasses at the Greenwich CT country club… They’re bringing good things to life. Oh, remember there is an Italian-American consortium that owns power company Ansaldo Energia (attended NI Week and Oct ecat demo). Siemens AG wants to buy Ansaldo. But the American partner says niet.

            American partner is based in… Greenwich CT. Hmmm

          • hempenearth

            Who is the American partner GW? I remember you mentioned Finmecanica and a “US Energy Holding Company” in a previous post. I’m not from the US so I don’t know the big boys from Greenwich.

          • captain

            It’s possible, Ansaldo Energia.

            Just one difference: Ansaldo produces steam turbines, as per Wiki, from 80MW upwards, while Siemens from less than 1MW up…
            Thus very likely, no as now, a mammoth stock of Rossi’s 1MW hot plants should be necessary to feed the smallest Ansaldo steam turbines. And this is understandable.

            Now the point is only to start with a single unit of 1MW and carefully check the quantity of hot dry steam at 600C supplied on a stable basis, first.
            Then the second test will be the SSM.
            Once satisfied with that, next step should be that of increasing the COP and also this step by step (remember Rossi’s words…), say 8, 10, and more, up to 20? Who knows it is the inventor only 🙂

            Leonardo corp, with his ‘partner’ backup, can easily go on with the experiments of new E-Cats New Fire prototypes…

            And in the meantime, with hot E-Cat plants already in operation, for USPTO, UL, EPO … there will be less resistance in granting patents, brevets, cerifications.

            SO GIVE SOON ROSSI WHAT BELONGS TO ROSSI.

          • freethinker

            A mammoth contract imply a large corpration. AR also hint that Leonardo now is “very much powerfull”. My bet is that big energy has embraced AR. This is good for the development of the industrial ecat. I believe it will shift the home cat further out to the periferi, and possibly make it so it never is brought to market. When in bed with a large energy corp it wont look good cranking out homecats for Wallmart or Homedepot. We’ll see.

          • GreenWin

            Not necessarily free. Big energy execs with VISION, can see where LENR will go. They also know they are in a position to get in on the ground floor. Let’s say there were some very smart guys running Con Edison in NY. They look at LENR and know that sooner or later all their fossil and fission resources will be replaced. Revenues are not significantly affected since LENR large scale will be a capital cost.

            But the real visionaries will also see an opportunity to cross-sell a home e-cat CHP system somewhere downstream. If their license allows them to design, brand and manufacture a 10kW ecat CHP for home – their market potential increases radically.

            They can now grow new revenue from manufacture, sell, and installing home ecat CHP. All the while their grid system downsizes to GW size LENR. If they don’t do this, someone else will. Utilities have an option now. Hence EPRI revisiting LENR with Brian Ahern. Just a suggestion :))

          • freethinker

            Well, I hope you are right, but I am worried that the lenr tech revolution, in the sense tha society can change in a positive way because of lenr, is in the balance when AR and big energy reach consensus. I am concerned that the home cat idea will be a sacrifice. But again I do hope your vision descrived above will come to be.

          • In the wake of Hurrficane Sandy, when 4.5 million people are still without electricity three days after landfall and possibly for weeks to come, our politicians owe it to us to do everything they possibly can to further the deployment and refinement of cold fusion with the urgency of a national security issue. How do we make that happen? Flood their emailboxes, their Facebook pages and their telephone lines (they are all available through the US Capitol switchboard at 202-224-3121). Our nation, and our history, demand this. The lives of 89 innocent people who died in the storm demand this. We must not stop here. And we must demand that Andrea Rossi, Robert Godes, the Defkalion people and Randell Mills bring all their powers to bear to deploy off-the-grid electricity generators that do not require fossil fuels to the general public. That is their patriotic duty, which may become submerged in the details of day-to-day struggles. Cold fuision’s future will not happen by accident. We must rely on ourselves, the Believers, to make certain a vastly promising technology does not die on the vine.

          • Karl

            I agree, there is no way the E-Cat will be the final solution. I think it is very important that at least one of the many LENR types of project will reach the market, which it will do and the sooner the better.

            I do not matter if it will be the Hot E-Cat for industrial applications to start with. Once this or any similar solution find its way to a real market application a flood of investment in further R&D and investment in competitor to Leonardo is likely to follow.

  • V ee dee

    My guess was also Koch and one “darling” co. Bechtel.

    Remember movie James Bond – epizode with water business in Bolivia ?

    This is story very similar to Bechtel – see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bechtel

  • GreenWin

    While Rossi’s new partner is in the private sector and is providing a significant financial hedge – it is interesting to see how DOD is looking at growth in energy systems. Follow the hot cat design changes and the subtle, but growing indications of transition on the way. The DOD recently put on a webinar on energy innovation. Though no direct mention of LENR took place – its absence confirms its classification. The slideshow accompanying the webinar includes a section from Siemens AG government sales (slides 16-20.)

    Slide 20 includes a visual diorama of future energy distribution including all-important micro-grids. The fact these non-centralized distributed power schemes have entered mainstream – is good news for LENR. A micro-grid could initially be powered by a <5MW e-cat. Or it could simply link a neighborhood of home e-cats, providing backup power and community sourcing for schools, NGOs, clinics etc.

    http://theenergycollective.com/88371/au … innovation

    As energy transitions from centralized to distributed resources, these micro-grids will play an increasing role. And DOD likes the idea since distributed power is FAR more secure than targetable central resources.

    • freethinker

      Microgrids would be very nice. I think, though, even if DOD wants it it very much up to the market. If a major energy corp is stepping in now, the will be interested in pushing the hot cat envelope and get efficient larger units and as much as possible work with their current grid assets. I believe it will take some time before microgrids will move in as a major energy carrier. The scope of things, even if very promising in many ways, make me draw the conclusion that home cats will probably not be available on the market. Product certification issues and resistance from big energy players embracing ecats will make it so.

  • V ee dee

    – it was visible that Rossi is Italian patriot
    – Fioravanti had 30 years praxis in thermodynamic of missiles
    – who is manufacturing missiles in Italia ? oto Melara
    – who is mother company of Oto Melara ? Finmeccanica
    – who is mother company of Ansaldo ? Finmeccanica
    – Finmeccanica has 72000 employes and is operating in 100 countries (Global)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finmeccanica

    whole U.S. noise may be simply standard inventor’s noise

    • hempenearth

      I believe First Reserve may be the US Partner that part owns Ansaldo Enegia with Finmeccanica (may be wrong though).
      http://www.firstreserve.com/go.asp?Go=!SiteStation&x=TPLGen&ResType=Folder&ResID=620&TPL=HomePage.htm

      And First Reserve have links with the giant Schlumberger.
      http://www.slb.com/

    • Gerald
    • daniel maris

      “Fioravanti had 30 years praxis in thermodynamic of missiles” – have you got a reference for that V ee dee? – never found anything definite on him myself.

      • V ee dee

        I simply remember this, no link, look at 22passi presence list 28/29 oct some 24th person was also from OTO Melara

        This is not coincidente because container e-cat is not suitable for OTOMAT Mk1

        I analyze weapon systems and aerospace/defense from 1973

        • daniel maris

          You might be right but you can’t expect others to simply take these things on trust.

          • Omega Z

            Daniel

            He was also in the Military & involved with NATO. Therefore the Rank, Colonel or whatever. This is why it’s hard to locate info on him in the public domain.

            Rossi actually met Fioravanti/Cures, His Cobraf label near to 30 years ago, but had no connection after that. They only Reconnected due to involvement of the E-cat test.

            Fioravanti is retired & is not an Employee of Rossi’s. But he has been an insider every since the Oct. Test. It appears a little less so since the leak. Rossi is less trusting in him now & is more an observer then participant.
            As to Cures post that he was not present for the last full power test of the latest version of the H-cat.

    • Iggy Dalrymple

      The problem with Finmeccanica (FINMY) is the loss per share, -$3.05, is more than the share price, $2.47.
      http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=FINMY

    • hempenearth

      First Reserve and Finmecanica are linked. From the news section of First Reserve:

      Rome, 9 March 2011
      Finmeccanica today reached an agreement with First Reserve Corporation, an international private equity investor specialised in the energy sector, for the sale of a 45% stake in Ansaldo Energia (AEN). The transaction completes the program undertaken by Finmeccanica following the acquisition of DRS Technologies, which includes the share capital increase of 2008 and the rescheduling of financial debt completed in 2010.
      ……..
      http://www.firstreserve.com/go.asp?Go=!SiteStation&x=TPLGen&ResType=Page&ResID=2820&TPL=NewsPageTemplate.htm

      • Omega Z

        hempenearth

        Ansaldo Energia is the same Company that Siemens has been trying to purchase. Ansaldo Energia has also had Observers at Rossi’s tests & at Zurich & Pordenone.

  • LCD

    I have to bring this up again

    Andrea Rossi
    August 11th, 2012 at 3:35 AM

    INFORMATION:
    AFTER THE LEAKAGE MADE BY AN INSIDER WITH THE THE NICKNAME “CURES” REGARDING THE TESTS COMPLETED ON JULY 16TH, WHICH HAD TO REMAIN UNDER NDA, I HAVE TO INFORM THAT:
    THE TEST MADE ON JULY 16TH WILL BE REPEATED OFFICIALLY WITHIN THE HALF OF OCTOBER 2012 BY THE UNIVERSITY OF BOLOGNA AND THE RESULTS WILL BE PUBLISHED BY THE SAME UNIVERSITY.
    ANDREA ROSSI

    Here is what Pop Sci says

    “The director of the Hot Cat test, a retired colonel and friend of Rossi’s, leaked the test results on the Web a week after Rossi sent them to me. The enthusiastic colonel “could not help to talk about this event and the remarkable results,” Rossi said on his blog. Rossi used the occasion to make another big announcement: The University of Bologna would conduct a new independent test of the Hot Cat and publish the results in October. When I contacted Dario Braga, vice rector for research at the University of Bologna, he unequivocally denied any official relationship between the university and Rossi. “I’m not aware of any work being done by our scientists with Mr. Rossi in a formally correct way,” Braga said. “I don’t know how Mr. Rossi can say this.”

    so I’m not sure how you reconcile these two opposing statements without just saying somebody is telling a “whopper” or Braga’s statement of “formally correct way” means professors are freelancing?

    If so that opens up another can of worms about using the UNIBO name.

    Rossi is frustrating.

    • AB

      I don’t exclude the possibility that UniBo is doing secret testing, but Rossi is probably just referring to his collaboration with David Bianchini, one of UniBo’s professors.

      • lcd

        Then his quite is very misleading.

      • GreenWin

        Bianchini is on staff at UniBo as a radiation safety specialist.