Enter the Tiger

Andrea Rossi has coined a new name for another reactor in the pantheon of E-Cats. Yesterday when asked by a reader on the JONP about the possibility of using larger e-cats, Rossi commented:

Yes, we are working also on it, even if it is not easy: a “cat” that weights 200 kg changes name into “tiger”.

He then elaborated on in a different comment:

We are testing low temperature tigers, for now, of 100 kW. All our reactors now have activator and E-Cat, allowing us an activator with a COP more than 1 and E-Cat with COP in the hundreds.

It looks now like the cat and mouse setup is going to be used in all reactors and it appears that this configuration will allow the overall COP of all E-Cats to be higher than 6 — although it’s not possible from what we have been told to know what that COP number would be. Rossi said in this week’s interview that the COP of the ‘mouse’ in the new Hot Cat reactors is 1.1, so combining that with an e-cat with a COP in the ‘hundreds’ might give you a combined COP of perhaps between 10 and 50 — I don’t know.

I can’t think of any domestic application that would require a Tiger-sized reactor of 100 kW+ — so this would be something to be used in industrial settings. For now, the emphasis is away from domestic units, although Rossi insists they are not off the table, but certification is holding them up. It seems that having one, rather than hundreds of reactors in one power plant would simplify things, and it indicates that the team is confident that they will be able have good control of these reactors at higher power levels.

• h_corey

IF he is using the term, like I would, the COPs would be multiplied not averaged for a system as a whole. That would assume that the second larger ecat is driven totally by the energy from the first. A big assumption.

• Peter Roe

The COP of a 2-stage unit would be calculated exactly as for a single stage device, i.e., COP=y/x where x is power input to the ‘mouse’ and y is output power from the main unit. y will of course need to be calculated from output heat measurements, and both values would need to be the calculated mean over a period of time, in order to allow for variability.

If an activator/’mouse’ is only run initially, x will fall to zero when it cuts out and the COP will then in effect become infinite, regardless of the actual output power (COP was never intended to reflect ‘overunity’ values). It would probably be better to express the output of any overunity device simply as ‘gain’, i.e., y-x in any suitable unit.

• Paul Stout

Based on Rossi’s claim, I think it is safe to assume that the tiger is at least five times the size of the activator, and putting out at least five times the power. If we take the low range from what Rossi claims, then tiger has a COP of 200 and the activator has a COP of 1.1. This works out to a very conservative estimated COP of 167 for the system as a whole.
((5*200)+ 1.1) / 6

• Peter Roe

Based on your figures I’d calculate it as c.COP=220 : If o/p is 200 (units) then i/p to the ‘tiger’ stage is 1 unit, which must also the o/p from the coupled activator. At COP=1.1 then i/p to the activator will be (for simplicity) 0.9 units. Overall COP is therefore c.220 (200/0.9) while the activator is running, and ‘infinite’ (200/0) when it is not.

On the face of it, an activator COP of 1.1 would be rather pointless, so either the COP is higher (perhaps the traditional 6), or ‘activation’ is not a purely thermal process (assuming that any of this stuff is true of course).

• Gigawatt

I would rather say this:
let’s assume an activator COP of 1.1
The second stage multiplies 200 times the “net” output from activator (0.1) so that the overall COP is 20.

• Peter Roe

Not so. COP 1.1 means one unit in, 1.1 units out. The 1.1 units out is therefore the input available to the ‘tiger’, which will then be amplified by a factor of 200 – there is no need to subtract the input.

• georgehants
• Bernie Koppenhofer

Thanks for that georgehants, I see three technologies converging rapidly, computers, batteries and LENR. Exciting times!

• John

Rossi must be very frustrated, having only one Italian patent. A part from his international patent application, is he applying for selective patents from different countries? Brillouin has a chinese patent

http://coldfusionnow.org/brillouin-energy-patent-granted-in-china/

• artefact

I think he does it like DGT and file the patent very late.

• Bernie Koppenhofer

Sounds like a good strategy to me keeping it a trade secret while updating patents with all kinds of “minor” innovations until the patent Gods decide to give him a patent.

• Pachu

Im thinking on what the investors feels about this home e-cat version stand-by, as far i can understand one attraction for the investors was the home e-cat for everybody in 2013, i remember things like the “pencil recharge” and “the size of a computer” and of course the “robotized factory”, if these things are in stand-by, how long Rossi can hold the investors patience with general test and third party reports and animal analogies for such a complex system.
The sales of the big cats doesnt seem to be enough for the amount of partners/investors that have gone public with a web site offering e-cats now.

• artefact

So the hotcat got smaler (1kW each) and the warm cat became a tiger of 100kW. Both have now an activator inside. That should mean the times of COP 6 are over(?)

• Gerrit

soon Rossi will have more Ecats in his offering than Samsung has smart phones.

• GreenWin

There are 36 species of wildcats throughout the world. So he has a ways to go before moving on to the domestic breeds. The OCELOT and LYNX could be next.

• Ryan

Well, if he goes to even bigger sizes then he would have to go to extinct or mythological cats as tigers are pretty much the biggest living cats now. Maybe a sabertooth or nemean lion model.

• Methusela

Interesting reading for Greenwin, as he’s explicitly mentioned in one of the posts; an interesting excursion into the mind of some prolific sceptical posters:

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/newvortex/message/361

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/newvortex/message/365

• Peter Roe

‘Kemo Sabe’ was an obvious tro11 and was treated as such here, even if no-one guessed at the time that it was Hody – most shills sing from exactly the same hymn book and its hard to tell them apart.

Several pathoskeps rotating on their own axes over at wavewatching.net/fringe/ (Quax’s ECN spin-off site) claim to have made excursions here to post under various guises. I imagine most of these have been deleted but if things get too quiet it could be fun to go back through all posts for the last few months and play ‘spot the skep’.

• GreenWin

Spot the Skep! Nice. Yes, kemo admits to being hody/popee/josh etc. Not quite a hymn they sing, more like a dirge from the Inquisition. Off key.

• Alp

I’ve not seen anything from a “Kemo Sabe”. Can you provide a link?

• Peter Roe

Yes, correction:

kemo sabe / joshua cude = Joshua P. Schroeder

al potenza / mary yugo = George Hody

• Andre Blum

e-tigerworld.com?

• andreiko

It looks like it worked the e-cats in serie connection, with thermal control and security.

• John

Andrea Rossi
May 10th, 2013 at 8:36 AM
Dear Andrea:
The average COP of the activator is 1.02 – 1.1; the average COP of the E-Cat is from 100 to 200.
The activator is turned on for about the 35% of the operation time.
This is what we are getting from prototypes working in these days in the USA.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

• guga

I`m very curious what the use of the activator really is.

I would assume that it is not meant to just heat the Ecat, because a COP of 1.02-1.1 seems negligible and hardly and advantage over just an electric resistor. So what is it good for? I guess it is not a source of neutrons, because, I hope, if any free neutrons are formed then they should be of very low energy and wouldn`t get far.

Any suggestions? I believe Rossi won`t tell us at this point.

• LCD

Yeah seems pointless unless it does something else.

• Pachu

Could be the same function that DGT has mentioned of excite hydrogen atoms to the Rydberg state ?

• David

Maybe it’s a source of phonons, and it’s an activator/deactivator, not only an activator

• PeterWol

Be careful about C.O.P. because it is not like the case of a heat pump, running steadily with perhaps 1 kW input and 3.5 kW output, so with an C.O.P. of 3.5. For e-cats C.O.P. is an average energy ratio, over a long period, perhaps days. So it is quite possible that the activator takes energy over minutes, at very modest temperatures while it heats up, and then emits a lot of power over seconds rather than minutes, at quite high temperatures. This sort of behavior is typical of energy generating devices which need to be heated to get them to start up. No need for a huge C.O.P. in the activator ( or mouse). I am very eager to find out what really happens, in detail!
PeterW.

• guga

Interesting, sounds like a possible explanation.

• Hi there fellows,

Our friend Murukhan Hippyflip made a song for us about Cold Fusion.

I added some photos and videos from our adventures and travels when promoting Cold Fusion all around the world.

Its not quite safe for children to watch but I hope it will make it through the strict moderation of Mr Ackland.

Have a nice weekend!

/ Dr Bob & Crew

• Dr Bruce Williams

Dr Bob,

I am really disappointed by your contribution to this amazing web-site, which I have been visiting for about two years……I will say no more…………… However, I would like to say a huge thank you to Frank Acland for his tireless and very intelligent efforts on behalf of something that many of us serious followers believe in.

• artefact

This video is obviously not designed to be liked by every person. It is something like the tin man from MFMP which was made for the younger people. This video is made for people who like a special subtype of electronic music. These folks are normally very peaceful, friendly and open to new things. I appreachiate every effort to spread the word.

• Dear Bruce, I celebrate indifference.
If you can create something cooler I would love to see it!

• artefact

hehe

• Hampus

What was that video about? A dog on drugs? I am left speechless.

• Sandy

I wonder whether Rossi has begun making E-Cat bodies out of titanium or tungsten. These materials have higher melting temperatures than steel and might therefore allow E-Cats to operate at higher temperatures and therefore at higher COPs.

• guga

I guess that wouldn`t change anything, the limit is the nickel. Rossi always said the Ecat would be intrinsically save because the reaction stops if the nickel melts. The melting temperature of nickel is around 1450C, for stainless steel I found 1510C.

• Sandy

For mobile applications of the E-Cat, it might be desirable to make E-Cats out of titanium because titanium is 45 percent lighter than steel.

• Warthog

There is some indication that tungsten is “LENR active” and could potentially replace the nickel…..allowing reactors with higher operating temperatures.

• With 100KW isn’t it time to think about cars again?

• Ecco the Dolphin

That depends on what you need to do. Small turbines for generator-like applications aren’t very efficient, so a 100 kW E-Cat for automotive applications might not be enough for anything except slowly recharging batteries (if the propulsion system is through electric motors, which is what would make the most sense to me).

• Pachu

With a generator of 200 Kg ?

• Andre Blum

what is the current combined weight of your engine and gas tank?

• Pachu

The engine is still needed.

• Hampus

Remember that this is the first generation of ecats. They will just get smaller and stronger and easier from here. One day we will have a reactor that is so small and easy to use that you can put it in a car. Then we will have reactors you can put in your washing machine. And after 10 maybe 20 generations they will be so small you can it them in a cellphone.

• GreenWin

In a CHP application this would give an average of 30kW electrical; trick is to design the cat to utilize the 65% waste heat for space, water heating and or chiller cooling.

• Lu

A hot-cat weighs about 4.5Kg and produces about 10KW of energy. 100KW of hot-cats would weigh 45Kg. The Tiger which also produces 100KW of energy weighs 200Kg, or 4-5 times what a comparable configuration of hot-cats would weigh. I know this is rough and the configurations are different (activator etc.) but the weight seems too high to me.

• LB

We know nothing about the exess power output.
So far it is only “Rossi says”
The only Third party testing done on the hot-cat
Done by SP Said no excess energy=0
And now comes the Tiger ???
Another smokescreen ?
Where is the Third party report?

• lenrdawn

“It seems that having one, rather than hundreds of reactors in one power plant would simplify things”

It would also seem that having one e-cat, rather than more and more different models, under development at the same time would considerably shorten time to market, especially since Rossi’s team already seems far, far too small and inexperienced to get even that done. So why yet another model? ANY old e-cat we’ve seen so far would turn the world upside down, make Rossi rich beyond his wildest dreams, win him at least one Nobel and fund first class development of whatever e-cat model he can possibly dream up in the future (not to mention humanity and all that).

• GreenWin

What makes you think that is not precisely what he is doing, whilst playing the eccentric for the PTB??

• lenrdawn

You really think so? A diversion? Perhaps he hasn’t even invented the e-cat and only “plays the eccentric for the PTB” in order to hide the fact that what he’s really up to is re-inventing the banana flavored condom. But I doubt it.

• GreenWin

Ah yes. It is an enigma.

• Warthog

Yes, but I suspect that getting the heat exchangers and control systems designed and finely tuned so as to avoid “runaways” in larger plants will be far more difficult than for smaller units. A trend from small to large based on that difficulty is precisely what I expect.

• GreenWin

“Distributed generation is something that couldn’t be stopped even if we wanted to.” Bill Zarakas, Brattle Group

Over the last couple days we have provided links to industry and government sources identifying the rapid emergence of Distributed Energy Resources – particularly natgas (NG) driven microturbines and FCs. Now from the home of cold fusion antipathy MIT Technology Review, we have further evidence of the inevitable collapse of the century old power grid:

“David Crane, the CEO of NRG Energy, which owns power plants and provides residential utility service, called distributed solar a ‘mortal threat’ to utilities earlier this year. Last week, he predicted that the natural gas industry will ‘disintermediate the electric power industry’ and provide power-generating appliances in people’s homes, which could be fuel cells, microturbines, or types of Stirling engines.

“These energy-producing appliances on the cusp of being deployed will allow people to walk away from the grid and produce electricity in their home,” Crane said at the Bloomberg New Energy Finance conference last week.”

http://www.technologyreview.com/view/514526/will-utilities-embrace-distributed-energy/

The electric utility industry and its advocates are just now waking up to the fact that the centralized grid, dumb or “smart,” is outdated, bloated, insecure, and an environmental hazard. Why force consumers to buy “smart” appliances needing to “communicate” with the grid when, energy is abundant, low low cost, and can be made at home???

“For whom the bell tolls? It tolls for thee.” Donne

• FlanObrien

Why force consumers to buy “smart” appliances needing to “communicate” with the grid when, energy is abundant, low low cost, and can be made at home???

The cell phone provides data on when and where you go.
The credit card provides data on what you do when out.
The data hole was the home, now filled by smart meters. Each electrical device in your home has an electrical signature. Thus, what you switch on and for how long is no longer private.

• GreenWin

Spot ON Flan! The data “hole.” Reason to revisit my collection of “The Prisoner” TV episodes from the 70s.

Oh dear, what a wrench (monkeyed or otherwise) distributed energy represents! Big Brother – meet BIGGER brother.

“There’s a battle outside
And it is ragin’
For the times they are a-changin’.”
b dylan

• LENR can be distributed energy, but it is not free like e free beer.
It is expensive per installed power.
LRNR have today a moderately slow startup/stop time around dozens of minutes…
The smart grid needed is not what is proposed to manage intermitent energies like wind and solar.

one solution for smartgrid could be to use of CVR

not far from the oldmethod.

Note also that since LENr produce heat easily, and since most electric consumption is more or less heat, most of electricity may not have to be produced if home appliance and industrial machine are adapted.
Today I have a 9kW home electric allowance, because of some electric heaters.
If you remove the electric heating, the oven, the iron, the tea boiler, the cofee boiler, the cooking pans and pots, the heating parts of the washing machines, if you replace fridge with absorption ridge, there would be :
many chargers (including my UPS for the computers, or the laptop chargers)..
TV, (not even the computers or tv/dsl-decoders that have UPS or batteries), fluocompact lighting, the engine and pumps of the washing machines, radioalarm (that should have UPS/batteries included), cooking blenders and alike…

probably 1-2kW would be enough with less than 1kW that cannot be shutoff for 10 minutes when power is missing because reactor have to startup.

this mean that at worst I would be able to have my own CHP/generator at home, eventually wasting heat outside when needing electricity, wasting electricity when needing heating…
or at best I could share the installed power with neighboures through a smart grid, with some district generator efficiently eventually proposing cheap electricity.
I feel that there is few need of complicated smartgrid, and that simple CVR with intelligents chargers, CHP, generators, UPS, lightbulbs, washing machines, that adapt consumption/production to the electricity demand, may do the job.

• artefact

Rossi says:
“The activator works for the 35% of the operational time of the system, while the E-Cat works for the 65% of the time.”

With a little error one could say the cat has an unlimited cop and the activator has one. With the given percentages abouve the total COP would be a bit greater then 60 I think. Ah I don’t know…

• artefact

no, we don’t know. Maybe the activator needs little input during the 35 % with cop 1. The rest is done with the cat.

• Andrew Ma

Anyone knows the mass of the activator? Could it be to provide a stable internal temperature for the reactor?

• artefact

From Pravda.ru (in science section)
(found by David from lenr-forum)

Energy Revolution is scheduled for summer

• GreenWin

Appears as though Russia will embrace this revolution even before the West. Rather Earth shaking it appears.

• Roger Bird

I wouldn’t bet on it. One little interview a revolution does not necessarily make. Russia’s economy and absurdly rich and fascistic billionaires depend upon their oil and gas industry. If any country is going to resist this revolution, it will be Russia (and Saudi Arabia). (And I am a conservative, so for me to say that they are fascistic is saying something about them. They might even have me bumped off for saying this.)

• GreenWin

You are probably right on this. Russia’s power structure is top down heavy on crimelord-type power. But there IS a huge gazillion \$\$ market in building and selling Distributed Energy Resources. These guys LOVE their money.

• Peter Roe

I love my money. It’s cute because its so small.

• LB

+1

• artefact

Peter Gluck on Vortex: “Rumors circulating about the Professors’ Hot Cat report pre-publication text on the Web accessible for very selected persons. Not confirmed yet.”
Has anyone heared of the rumors?

• Not until you just told me . . . wish I was a selected person 🙂

• GreenWin

I can tell you there is LOTS of rumbling from industrial insiders. In as much as there has been reference to “vicious personal attacks” taking place, re report.

Reliable IMO.

• Ecco the Dolphin

Could you be more descriptive? What do you mean exactly? How do you know that?

• GreenWin

.

• GreenWin

The “report” referred to is not to my understanding the e-cat report, but the EEI report on disruptive DERs:

President Obama had a private meeting at the White House on Wednesday, May 8th attended by Administration and electric utility industry CEOs and leaders to discuss “prevention and restoration of power outages during disaster.”

Tom Kuhn, David Owens, Brian Wolff all of the Edison Electric Institute – the same organization issuing the warning to utilities of disruptive Distributed Energy Resources in the January 2013 Report.

This link lists the other electric utility/industry attendees at this meeting:

http://www.utilitydive.com/news/obama-meets-privately-with-utility-ceos/129488/

• Linda

So now, the electricty industry will respond to all this disruptive technology the way the recording industry did. We will see mass systemic repression, aimed at protecting the power and profits of the oligarchs.

“Go Capitalism” 🙁

• GreenWin

Some will. But RIAA never stopped the explosion of music sharing/downloading which is bigger than ever (as well as mega-music store like iTunes.) These execs are likely being warned again that they need to adapt fast… or die. 🙁

• GreenWin

The White House has updated the purpose of this private meeting to include the following:

“The discussion covered a variety of topics, including the important role of natural gas in our domestic energy portfolio, new opportunities for renewables, like wind, solar and advanced biofuels, the importance of clean energy research and development, as well as the promise and potential of increased energy efficiency in our homes and businesses.”

• Peter Roe

Perhaps this has something to do with the sudden top level interest in distributed power systems and alternative energy sources?

http://www.examiner.com/article/magnetic-field-and-electric-grid-collapse-the-new-energy-imperative

The likelihood of systemic electric grid collapse creates a social, economic and political necessity that ultimately must trump rigid scientific orthodoxy.

• There is no sign in awarenes of LENr is visible strategy.
I check it and it is business delusion as usual.

the problem with smartgrid is that wind and solar energy is stressing the grid awfully, demanding huge capacity of gas turbine to backup intermitent energy.

smart grid is the only way to help reduce that huge overhead.

same for accumulators and supercapacitors technology who may help too.

• GreenWin

Interesting. The introduction of DER in the form of simple NG-fired generators (combustion 7 FC) is a far better solution than hardening a highly vulnerable grid. The “smarter” a massive grid becomes – the more vulnerable to EMF events.

• Roger Bird

The minimum cost that I saw for a home electricity generator from NG was \$1800, which is way too much. I believe that that was like 8kW. Was that 8kW of input or 8kW of output? I guess it would be output.

• Omega Z

Maybe connected to the Twitter feed?

• Yes, I wouldn’t be surprised if the people at ecat.com have seen what’s in the report.

They certainly seem excited.

• Maybe this is why @ecatdotcom announced “big news coming soon” on twitter?

• Mark

I hope the Twitter feed of “big news” is not the “big tiger cat” and is the much anticipated third party report.

• Roger Bird

Let one hundred coal fired plants, with excellent scrubbers eliminating the real pollution, blossom: http://online.wsj.com/article_email/SB10001424127887323528404578452483656067190-lMyQjAxMTAzMDAwOTEwNDkyWj.html?mod=wsj_valetbottom_email

• Eph

*sight*. Here comes the next smoke granade. It started with “domnestic e-cats”, which now seem forgotten, because the “hot e-cat” was more important. Now that will be forgotten and the “100 kW e-cat” will see the light of day and keep people busy for another year.

• Roger Bird

**sigh** You could be right. I hope to find another interest for a few months and go away and come back in say August to see what is happening. It is still “Rossi says”. I enjoy the folks here, but the “Rossi says” is getting really old.

• KD

If I was Rossi customer, ready to buy already offered E-Cat and I learn, that he is developing something better, I prefere to wait another year or two.:))

• Roger Bird

So, Rossi was involved with a dragon a couple of decades ago. Now he is involved with a tiger. Do you suppose that he is now hiding a crouching dragon or tiger?

• Luca Salvarani

Let me tell you one thing: our justice system is absolutely not reliable at all… Rossi’s past justice problems don’t say nothing about e-cat since our justice system is a laughing stock, one of the most ridiculous in the developed world…. so don’t judge him from this experience.

• Roger Bird

Luca, I am very glad to hear that. I was actually trying to make a joke about “Hidden Dragon, Crouching Tiger” the movie, but it was a very lame joke. I should get convicted in a court of law for such pathetic humor. But I wish that you would get that information out to some of our skeptics.

• artefact

From JONP:

Andrew
May 10th, 2013 at 11:59 AM
Dear Andrea,
I am really excited by the prospects of a 100 kw cat/tiger
with just 30% efficiency conversion to electricity it could provide enough heat and electricity to power a block of 20+ flats (or 12-15 houses) even in the UK I s this the sort of ‘distributed generation’ you have in mind? Even more exciting is the prospect of a (combined) COP exceeding 150, is this really true?

——

Andrea Rossi
May 10th, 2013 at 4:39 PM
Dear Andrew:
Yes, this is the path we are tracking. But for industrial applications, so far.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

• artefact

From JONP:

Joseph Fine
May 10th, 2013 at 1:39 PM
Dear Andrea Rossi,

Referring to the Tiger prototype, is its volume only about 0.2 m^3 (cu. meters)?

Therefore, ten of these 100 kW modules assembled together (1 MW) would have a volume of only 2 m^3. Is that correct?

Best regards,

Joseph Fine

—–

Andrea Rossi
May 10th, 2013 at 4:38 PM
Dear Dr Joseph Fine:
1- yes
2- yes
Warm Regards,
A.R.

• Mark

As excited as I am about a new bigger cat in the Rossi family; I would be happier with just one ecat any version size or style in the hands of one customer saying how great it is. I’m having difficulty these days convincing my peers about the ecat they are starting to tune me out. “The market will prove the technology either it works or it doesn’t” … Just let me buy one to heat my pool and I will tell the world!

• NJT

I am finding just the opposite as many are now are asking me what is the latest and greatest from the LENR world. Just last evening I made a short presentation on Rossie’s latest interview to a large body of very sophisticated and knowledgeable folks, with good interst and reception expressed…

• Hampus

My family and friends now thinks I am crazy. I have been saying cold fusion will come soon and change the world. But as nothing’s happens they get bored and just tunes me out. Now I am forbidden to speak about cold fusion with any of them.

• Roger Bird

Cheer up. Sometime in the near future you will be able to say “I told you so!!”

• +1.

• GreenWin

From David’s link to the Google translation of PRAVDA.ru article titled, “Energy Revolution Scheduled for Summer:”

“All over the world there is a strong boom in connection with the results that have already received two years ago in Bologna (Italy) Andrea Rossi with Sergio Focardi in the area, as they were called, cold fusion.” Yuri Bazhutov, Chairman Russian Conference on Cold Nuclear Transmutation

• Roger Bird

No wonder the Soviet Union went kaput. Their language is so confusing they couldn’t understand each other.

(:->)

• GreenWin

Roger, I think it’s more the Google robotic translation.

• Roger Bird

Ya think?

• GreenWin

Yeah, bots I get to use spell bad and use crappy grammar. Wish I had access to the state of the art ones!

• Gerrit

still somehow “Google translate” delivers a less ambiguous message than Rossi.

• I just asked Rossi on JONP when he excpects the first plants built by hist US partner. This will also be the beginning of mass production:

barty
May 10th, 2013 at 5:39 PM

Dear Mr. Rossi,

your recently said your US Partner is now producing the 1MW Plants.
When do you expect they will finish the first plants, and when will they be delivered to their customers?
I hope your “mass production” will start soon 😉

Greetings from Germany!
barty

• Here is Rossi’s Comment I refer to:

Andrea Rossi
May 8th, 2013 at 4:29 PM

Dear Brian:
The plant

you saw in the photo has been made in the factory of Bologna, but recently it has been transferred to our factory of Ferrara, bigger and well supplied, to be modified with the application of new technologies, to be delivered to our USA Partner, who tested it in a 24 straight hours test on April 30 and May 1.
At the same time in the USA has been started the manufacturing process. All the next plants will be delivered from the USA factory, while in Ferrara will remain the production of experimental prototypes and relative tests.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

• GreenWin

Same day President Obama met privately with large group of electric utilities execs. Hmmm, are these “plants” the kind you water… or put in place surreptitiously?

• energyproducts

if anyone can shed some more information on this meeting it would be appreciated

• NJT

They need very careful watering to be productive and grow big and strong!

• GreenWin

Ah hah, the hands of a talented horticulturist are in demand!

• Peter Roe

But at some point they’ll need some sunlight.

• Barry

Good one Peter. It is a lovely dream though, the idea that the first to be informed are the powers that be. I find myself giving in to hope all over again.

• Peter Roe

Barry – It is hard to resist, isn’t it! My faith in Rossi’s claims and estimated dates on JONP remains at an all-time low, but it seems highly probable that he does have useable technology.

As for his ever-repeating pattern of promise, no-show, shiny-new-thing, personally I’ve given up trying to follow that particular circus, or trying to figure the man out.

On balance I think GreenWin’s sense that large wheels are now turning is probably right, and I will (try to) calmly wait for developments that don’t involve JONP.

• NJT

Right Peter, Apparently they are still in Rossie’s basement hidden with the grow lights. They eventually must (will) be exposed to the light of day in order to grow big and strong…

• That’s the question answered in POWER, my novella about the E Cat, (unreviewed by Frank but liked by AR) available free at http://www.american-reporter.com/4,726W/3260.html

• Roger Bird

Joe, it distresses me that Rossi would have the time to read such a long piece of fiction.

• Rossi is champion in saying nothing… 🙁

Andrea Rossi
May 10th, 2013 at 8:34 PM

Dear Barty:
This does not depend on me, but mass production is for sure in preparation.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

Does he really have no clue when his partner will finish their first OWN plants?
He surely will review their work I think.

His “robotized lines” are in preparation since summer 2011…

• Peter Roe

… and in knowing nothing.

• Roger Bird

It just occurred to me that if an e-cat should need repair in one of those 1 Mw container plants, who is going to go into one of those containers to fix it or bring it out of the container while the rest of the e-cats are still operating? If they are hot-cats, I submit to you-all that no one is going to go into that container. And if they are warm-cats, then, for me, I would require hazard pay.

• After mass production has begun, and > 10 plants were delivered I guess they will offer trainings to plumbers etc…

• John

Haha, thanks for chiming in Mario!

• daniel maris

Presumably as happened with conventional plants when a piece of machinery goes wrong, there is down time. All power plants have down time. I think for coal powered plants it’s something like 16% – about two months per annum.

• Thinksforself

Ex-NAVY Nuclear Machinist Mates could handle it with a hangover and their eyes closed. The E-Cat has nothing on a running naval nuke plant for pressure and temperature extremes.

• Hank Mills

Can anyone confirm the rumor about the pre-print of the hot cat report being available on the internet to certain individuals? If so, please post any info you can find here, on this thread. I for one am going nuts wanting to read the report.

• Kim

I agree we could all use it.

Respect
Kim

• Yes, if anyone hears anything credible, please let us know!

• Gigawatt

I am not sure but someone should ask Mats Lewan about rhe report because i think the “magazine” Will be NyTeknik.
Just a guess

• Ged

I second this whole heartedly.

• Torbjörn

“The reports should be posted in science journals this month some time.”
http://revolution-green.com/

I have no idea if Kenneth know this or if he was just guessing.

• Kim

Old Reference.

Kim

• walker

Hi all

Apparently the source is something a certain Dr. Peter Gluck wrote.

Kind Regards walker

• Robert

This may be the last straw for me. I have seen this “pattern” before.
Rossi paints himself into a corner and comes up with a new cat to
get him off the hook. Everyone forgets about the old promise and
latches onto the “new cat” story.

The old cat was to be sold and delivered. Then the hot cat came out.
We were expecting delivery “by contract” April 30th. Now to find it
is his partner, not a customer. The big report promised, it will now
be side stepped because the “Tiger” is the current news. The report
will not be released as it will need to updated to the tiger.

This news has caused the “camels back to severely crack”. Unless
sometype of truly independant confirmation comes within the next
few days, I am afraid I will have to say adeu and good luck.

Rossi has just painted a picture I cannot look at any more. I will
keep up with MFMP, but Rossi has just passed my point of
credulance.

• Kim

I have observed Andrea Rossi for 3 1/2 years.

I have seen it, and read it all.

Andrea Rossi is very disciplined individual.

Andrea Rossi has had to give up a large portion of his cherished control to keep his project viable and afloat.

His spirit is strong and his interest and
believe in what he is attempting has never
wavered.

Yet he does not have the authority
to disclose his technology in the manner it should be. He is held back by his controllers.

We should not blame Andrea Rossi.

The Rules of this game are bigger then Andrea,
and we all know this deep inside.

These people will either let us have this
new fire or they won’t.

There is no middle ground in this regard.

Once released to the world and acknowledged
by peers, this paradigm will be lost and
a knew world will be upon us.

I still have a hand full of straws.

Respect
Kim

• When the Report is published or Rossi’s partner reveals its identity (whichever comes first), a “tsunami” (in Rossi’s words) arises. Rossi and his partner can better weather the wave if they are already close to mass-producing plants at that point. I don’t think anyone “controls” Rossi or his partner. They control themselves, but they optimise their strategy.

A societal phase where the knowledge of reality of Rossi’s reactor is widespread, but the reactors themselves are not yet available for some time, is potentially unstable and cumbersome. It is sensible and responsible behaviour to try and minimise the duration of that period.

• Good analysis, Pekka.

• Marc

the credulity on this site is legendary when is the cut off point with rossi im sorry folks he is a wrong un there are however companys in England that you will not have heard of with very interesting developments in lenr to be confirmed of real developments end of year yes its us again the English to save the day and get there names down in history you may not beleave me but lenr will come from England like so many other game changing inventions Rossi on the other hand has lots of talk but only clear signs he is a fraudster like his convictions state and his bold lies about his personal mile stones like world records runs and what not. the revolution will start in England this winter for the first real press release of working prototypes and no im not going to tell you how I know and its not down to ip lol

• John Littlemist

I don’t trust an englishman who doesn’t know how to punctuate!

• Roger Bird

Apparently writing clearly is not one of Marc strong points.

All allegations that Rossi was a crook must be weighed against the fact that the Italian legal system is the worst in the developed world. An Italian told me that.

• GreenWin

Thanks for being here Robert. You’ll be mist.

• John

Or Steam, perhaps.

• Roger Bird

I feel similarly. But I like the chit-chat here. I might stick around. If someone knows of a good forum about plasma cycling engines I might join that.

But I do tend to not get to deeply into the details of what Rossi is doing now.

• GreenWin

Friends here at e-catworld might be missing the forest for the trees – waiting for the legendary “third party report.” Meanwhile the world is reacting around us with astonishing swiftness – as if the report has gone to select, high level personnel.

We have posted in the last week a series of articles, quotes, links, referring to the explosive attention at MANY levels of government and industry to the disruptive rise of Distributed Energy Resources. DER as an acronym is new. The matter and function is not. So then, why one might ask the sudden confluence of interest? Up to and including the office of the President of the United States? And every major electric utility CEO and leader??

Why? Has someone just suddenly thought, “Oh, how great, we can use CHP and distributed energy to alleviate the burdens of climate, disaster, oil imports, and rising costs!” Or has something disruptively, dramatically changed in the last couple years? Why did President Obama call a PRIVATE meeting of the USA’s top electric utility CEO’s and leaders – on May 8th?? Why were the top three of those execs representing the Edison Electric Inst?? And what disturbance has the EEI Report on Disruptive DERs caused the mammoth electric industry?

One need not be Phi Beta Kappa analyst at Langley to read these tea leaves. Has anyone here skill at reading high level political activities, who cares to chime in?? Could the substantive effect of an e-cat “report” be issued already? This link provides a list of the major players called to the White House on Wednesday to discuss “energy issues.”

http://www.utilitydive.com/news/obama-meets-privately-with-utility-ceos/129488/

• Al S

Very interesting. This warning comes out: http://www.nationalreview.com/agenda/345263/potential-impact-distributed-energy-resources-reihan-salam and the move to self generated power is lamented by the industry. They are talking about solar competition pushing Distributed Energy Resources. President Obama calls a meeting telling the execs. ‘you all need to get on with DER because that can help with the next disaster’ and look at their faces, reflecting looming loss of profit. This coincidentally places the advent of LENR in an almost irresistible position. If it’s possible to keep people alive and well with self generated power the next time a catastrophe occurs, then through a back door, e-Cat as made its debut.

• Peter Roe

Possibly somewhere on that list may be the identity of the ‘partner’?

Several factors may have come together some time ago that pushed energy to near the top of the agenda – fears about oil reserves, the cost (monetary, political) of wars to secure control of oilfields, US dependence on unstable and often hostile suppliers and China’s increasing share of the buyer market, progressive dumping of the dollar as the currency of oil trading, and the current strange behaviour of the sun and Earths magnetic poles, indicating vulnerability of the national grid to EMP disruption resulting from coronal mass ejections at a time of reduced magnetic shielding.

I have never been convinced about Rossi’s story of the ‘university professors’ spontaneously and magnanimously coming together to test the hot cat and submit a report to a peer-reviewed rag that only a few physicists might read. It has always seemed more likely to me that the ‘partner’ sponsored the report, but another possibility is that this was a govt. sponsored effort to establish finally whether Rossi is a charlatan or a saviour. Either way, as GW suggests, the US govt. may now be in possession of the facts and may have decided to act on this basis. If ‘Nuclear Dave’ Cameron performs an adroit volte face on new fission reactors, that would be all the proof I would need that the ‘new fire’ has quietly arrived, behind the scenery.

• GreenWin
• Peter Roe

Mmm – looks like fairly predictable stuff based on localised powergen from PV and wind (the DER part) plus hoped-for efficiency improvements in storage, transmission and network control. Tidal power is ignored as usual.

Possibly a few things have changed since this was written in 2004, including the emergent reality that PV is an uphill struggle, and wind is more or less useless. Hopefully the EU commission’s technical people are now aware of other possibilities, but I won’t be able to believe that until there is good evidence that fission is being dumped in the UK and France.

• Roger Bird

Peter Roe, you say that wind is more or less useless. What is going on there? Why do you say that?

• Here’s a good summary of the problems with industrial wind projects.

• Peter Roe

Ric got there first – his linked article explains in detail. Off topic, but as things are quiet:

Wind farms, especially offshore, have disproportionately high capital costs per kWh of capacity.

Transmission from offshore and other remote locations are also high, as are electrical losses.

Wind power is intermittent, variable and unpredictable.

Wind turbines kill birds in large numbers.

They have inherently low capacity factors. If all the thousands of wind turbines in the US as of the end of 2012 operated with a 25% capacity factor (most never reach that) they would produce less electricity (10,260,150,000 kilowatt-hours – kWh) than two 750-megawatt (MW) gas-fired combined cycle generating plants operating in base load with an 80% capacity factor (10,512,000,000).

Maintenance costs, particularly offshore, are higher than any other form of generation except nuclear. The useful life of today’s wind turbines and their lifetime O&M, repair and replacement costs are unknown.

They are only viable with large taxpayer subsidies. When such subsidies are withdrawn, they cannot survive.

In short, they are a waste of resources that would have been much better put to other uses.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2116877/Is-future-Britains-wind-rush.html

http://toryaardvark.com/2011/11/17/14000-abandoned-wind-turbines-in-the-usa/

• GreenWin

Missed the publication date. Yes, it is fairly tepid on innovative DER. Which further highlights the explosion of interest in the US following the EEI Report in January this year. That report pulled no punches on how the US utility industry could suffer a mass extinction event from disruptive DER.

BTW, excellent review of downside to wind. We can also look at the vastly over-engineered patchwork that is the “smart grid.” Yet another control mechanism for the Mockan oligarchs.

• Roger Bird

It does seem to me to be very heavy handed for a VERY gradual change that solar and wind would cause.

And, oh, home generation of electricity using natural gas isn’t in the cards just yet. I checked out the cost of one of those NG-to-electricity units: the minimum cost was \$1800. It would take me 3.25 years to break even, not counting maintenance and the cost of NG. If I throw in the cost of maintenance and NG, the break-even point is much farther down the time-road.

• GreenWin

Roger, has your research indicated any reduction in NG cost over the next few years? There is a glut of NG now and cost per unit volume should decrease – theoretically.

• Roger Bird

The prices of my utility have certainly dropped but not a lot, but noticeably. That is all I know. Prices may be more local, since our fracking has just gotten started and they are still fighting over the small legal print.

• John Littlemist

I wonder when was that meeting (Obama & execs) scheduled. It could have been scheduled months ago.

• walker

Hi all

There is a photo of the Whithouse situation room at the moment they got Binladen it is probaboly held in the Archive of every News media in the world for quick reference.

Here is another Photo from the Whitehouse:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/whitehouse/8724226034/in/photostream

Notice the faces. Check out the expressions, what, no smile for the Camera Ladies and Gentlemen? More like: For Whom The Bell Tolls.

Kind Regards walker

• How is this related to LENR?

• -Is your point that maybe LENR was on their agenda too because the faces look severe, not only reliability of electricity distribution as the caption says? Not impossible, but I think that a long meeting provides so much picture material that it is largely the journalist’s choice what kind of mood the photograph conveys to the public. Also, maybe already the official agenda provided enough reasons to wipe off their smiles at times.

• Omega Z

The Reason for the Sour look is Obama just told them-

Gentlemen, We have seen the 3rd Party Data.
It is Conclusive.
It’s going to Cost You Big Time if you want me to put the kabash on this.

• Roger Bird

Why are you lying? It is a picture about energy.

• Peter Roe

You can sometimes be a little too fast to accuse people of lying, Roger. Walker seems to be simply pointing out that no-one was smiling for the camera at the US ‘energy summit’.

• Roger Bird

• walker

Hi all
In reply to Roger I said:

[“There is a photo of the Whithouse situation room at the moment they got Binladen it is probaboly held in the Archive of every News media in the world for quick reference.

Here is another Photo from the Whitehouse:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/whitehouse/8724226034/in/photostream

Notice the faces. Check out the expressions, what, no smile for the Camera Ladies and Gentlemen? More like: For Whom The Bell Tolls.”]
_______________________________

Please take notice of the full stop and line space after the sentence beginning “There is a photo…” and ended with “…for quick reference.”

The full stop denotes an end to the sentence. The line space denotes a new paragraph.

That first sentence denotes seen setting for a comparison of two historic photographs.

Note also the reference to the photograph is in both a separate sentence and paragraph.

I hope my explanation helps.

Kind Regards walker

• walker

Hi all

For those who have not noticed yet:

http://www.pravda.ru/science/technolgies/26-04-2013/1153327-termo_cold-0/?mode=print

Kind Regards walker

• lenrdawn

“Can anyone confirm the rumor about the pre-print of the hot cat report being available on the internet to certain individuals?”

Yes. Hank Mills brought it up on e-catworld yesterday.

Hank, please don’t play the old “can anyone confirm” game. It didn’t work on PESN and it won’t work here either. If you know something then say it. If you don’t… well.

• walker

Hi all

I believe the comment about an online preview of the third party report, being available to selected individuals, is as a result of something Dr. Peter Gluck said.

Kind Regards walker

• David

What Peter Gluck said was a joke regarding the skeptic Gary Wright who is quiet about Rossi because “seems got annoyed with the story of Rossi or has got a pre-publication copy of the mythical Professors’ report.”

• mark

The third party report is very important to Rossi’s business (patent approval + customers…). I would think those professors would invite him to have a look at the summary/conclusion, in the background before publishing the article.

• Roger Bird

It is a fact that the scientific method cannot tell us what to study next and what to explore next. We in LENR fandom are stuck somewhere between hardcore scientific method thinking [maryyugo thinking] and being delighted with something and believing that it must be true [unicorn thinking]. Staying stubbornly at both of those extremes is not helpful. Columbus was wrong, yet he accomplished something very substantial. The patho-skeptics like maryyugo accomplish nothing except perhaps to tweek the details of what someone else has already discovered. The maryyugo thinkers fault the explorers and the discovers for pursuing something that must be false [because theory says it must be false, or because authority figures say that it must be false.] Yet, what have they ever discovered. The panda bear was considered a mythical beast until it was discovered. If everyone were a maryyugo thinker, we would still be shivering in the cave a la paleolithic times.

• NJT

+1

• Thinks4Self

I see that many people are suddenly feeling let down that Rossi has announced the ‘Tiger’ and I for one have trouble understanding why. I began to follow the goings on with Rossi and the E-Cat in January of 2011. At the time the complaint was that its output was so low what could you do with it other than maybe use it as a hot water heater or maybe supplemental heat for a building. The cry was if you could scale it up you might actually have something useful. So now less than 2 1/2 years later with the help of funding and a larger staff he is doing just that. For some reason it is being viewed as a smoke screen for the third party test. The third party test by definition is out of his control. I believe it will see the light of day eventually, I would think by the end of the year and probably by the end of the summer. The last 1MW plant that just shipped seems to have been sold to a partner in his endeavor, which is not exactly what we would like to have seen but it does make sense. If you were an energy producer and had put the money up for one and while waiting for it to be produced were convinced by your new access to Rossi and the E-Cats that they were undeniably real you would likely invest in the company as well hoping to make a killing on it when it goes big. My bet is that by Labor Day some big trust-able names will get to tour the new 1MW plant and see it in action. If you are feeling some watcher fatigue or boredom take sometime away. Product R & D is not the most exciting thing to watch and definitely does not fit into the 24 hour news cycle we have become use to. I normally check in once a week here to see what is new sometimes I go longer sometimes shorter it all depends on what is going on.

(note: I am ignoring all of the patho-skeptic noise that is out. For one simple reason, I have asked the patho-skeptics on multiple forums to build a device the same size and volume as Rossi’s setups that produce the same results using something other than LENR in order to prove that he is a fake. I have yet to see one built, so until I see one or other hard evidence proving he is a fake I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt. )

• Roger Bird

Let us suppose that Rossi is telling the truth in general terms, that he really does have what he says that he does. Let us suppose that he got hurt last time with the government because one or more people did not take him at his word. Is it possible that he is trying to get payback? People who don’t accept his word have to pay by eventually looking stupid and what else results from putting him down and then he delivering the goods big time. It certainly fits the data of him giving us little bits and pieces and expecting us to believe everything that he says.

• Buster

Before one can make rabbit stew one must have a rabbit. There is no rabbit here.

• Roger Bird

Many of us think that there is a rabbit, or perhaps a cat. Many more are certain that there is an LENR. Almost 50% of us are PhDs and MSs.

• G_Zingh

I am no scientist, so correct me if I am wrong, but I would caution people about reading too much hype into Rossi’s information about his Tiger-Ecat. If you assume that over a period of months that these systems are designed to operate; the power needed to start the system less the residual power in the system when it is shut down is negligible, then the COP of the system may be as low as 2.86.

If as Rossi says the ecat element in the system is off when the activator is on, and we do not know how much the ecat element is contributing to the power output of the system during the time it is off, then the low value power output it might have while it is off is zero.The activator is then responsible for 100% of the rated power output of the system while it is on assuming a constant rated power output of the system. If the system is rated at 100kW then the heating coil is outputting close to 100kW at this time. Maybe a little less than 100 since the COP of the activator is 1.1.

If it runs for 100 hrs (not counting startup or shut down) then for 35 hours the activator is ON and the heating coil is outputting almost 35*100kWh. The COP of the system is Power out/Power in = (100kW* 100hrs) / (100kW*35hr) which gives 2.857.

But of course although the heating element likely turns on and off almost instantly, relatively speaking, the activator may not since it has nickel powder in it. And the ecat element definitely does not since it takes an hour for the system to cool down. So the point being we cannot know what the COP of the Tiger might be but the low number from the Rossi data given to us so far is 2.86.

• Roger Bird

People who admit to not being scientists should either not use two decimal places when describing a COP, or else admit that they are scientists or scientifically savvy. (:->)