Defkalion English Language Demo Thread, July 23

Here’s a new thread for discussion of today’s schedule presentation by Defkalion Green Technologies.

Today’s schedule of events at the ICCF-18 conference shows “Demonstration: Defkalion Reactor Startup” listed from 9:00-9:10 a.m. US Central time. This ties in with the schedule listed at http://new.livestream.com/triwu2/Defkalion-US which shows an event beginning at the same time.

It seems that today’s event will be something different than the discussion that took place yesterday in the Italian language webcast.

Comments:

1. Two tests. The first test will use argon (control, or dummy test). The second will use hydrogen

2. They are using the 5th generation reactor. Designed not for maximum COP, but for them to control and understand the reactor.

3. 60 grams of active materials inside the reactor — 5 grams of nickel, the rest is supportive material

4. Plasma will trigger the reactors.

5. Water coming from the grid 25 C.

6. Mats Lewan of NyTeknik (Swedish science magazine) on hand to do testing.

7. Water flow 0.898 liters per minute.

8. They have started preheating the resistors.

9. Now in the active run — hydrogen rather than argon. Plasma is now ignited, and output power trace is now higher than the input. John H says they will gradually decrease the input power from here.

Right now input is 2.3, output is 2.8

  • artefact

    It seems the livestream got a little shifted.

    Now at Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:00am EDT — Tue Jul 23, 2013 6:00pm EDT

    That is 16:00 CEST to 24:00 CEST

    The reason is given on 22Passi:
    http://22passi.blogspot.de/2013/07/per-gli-addetti-ai-lavori-e-per-gli.html

    • artefact

      From the steamingpage (http://new.livestream.com/triwu2/Defkalion-US)

      “Hello everybody, for your information, this streaming is broadcast from the “real” Defkalion labs with light equipment and crew. Yesterday (during the italian pre-cast) we had some problems with the internet bandwidth. We are not going to use any special connection (we had no time to arrange it) and in case the link drops it will be reestablished as soon as possible. Please be patient and consider that the event will be available after the broadcast also.”

      • fortyniner

        I couldn’t get an image in the main page window, but clicking on ‘Popup’ (square with an arrow in one corner, bottom right) produced a good image and sound in another window. No idea why this works, but anyone else having problems might try it.

  • An interesting change by Andrea Rossi on the JONP:

    Last night I posted the following question —

    Frank Acland
    July 22nd, 2013 at 7:50 PM
    Dear Andrea,

    You mention that the IP for the E-Cat may be made useless by strong industrialization of E-Cat products. The only way for this to be the case would be for your partner to produce E-Cats on a massive scale very cheaply.

    Is this a priority for you and your partner?

    Many thanks,

    Frank Acland

    Rossi Replied yesterday —

    Frank Acland:
    When we will put the domestic E-Cat in the market, the price will make very difficult the competition. The technological copies will lose any value, and the production will demand huge capitals and time to allow competitivity. This is the scenario I have envision of. Of course The Partner is on the same wavelength. We will start only when we will have got readiness in this scenario. I suppose.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    Today that reply has been changed to:

    Frank Acland:
    It is among our priorities in this period.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    • artefact

      I think he is waiting with new information until he knows what DGT shows at ICCF and at NIweek to give a better contra. In the last weeks it was pretty quiet from him.

  • Johnny English

    Oh dear, are references to the age of Aquarius and Keshe really appropriate on the verge of a serious demo?

    http://pesn.com/2013/07/23/9602344_Pre-Sentiments_about_Defkalions_Cold_Fusion_Reactor_Demonstration_July_22_in_Milan/

  • fortyniner

    IMO Rossi is being somewhat disingenuous. The question did not mention ‘domestic’ e-cats, which Rossi himself has said could only become available after safety data for industrial e-cats has been gathered. As industrial plants must therefore precede domestic products by months if not years, the risk of IP disclosure will come from industrial usage, and any comments about the home unit ‘scenario’ are irrelevant at present.

    He seems to be avoiding entirely the question of whether the partner intends to mass-produce e-cat cores (of whatever variety) for industrial applications. In fact the reply was actually content-free to all intents and purposes – pure evasion. I think they (Rossi + parner) are still waiting to see what DGT has before saying anything of substance (and perhaps not then, either).

    • fortyniner

      Wrong place – this was supposed to be a reply to Admin’s post below.

    • Hi 49er,

      I think the concern for reverse engineering comes mainly with the domestic e-cats. I’m sure it’s possible to do it with the industrial units, but it will be harder to get away with since there will be more control over them from Rossi & Co.

      • psi

        I agree with this analysis.

      • Chris I

        Indeed. He won’t be selling too many of them before everybody and their aunt knows the secret; at that point they’ll empty their warehouses in addition to what’s coming out of the lines. When competitors bevome abundant, only buddies will be allowed to call it Kleenex.

        The patent to Gatorade has long expired but the international tradename is still property of the original holders. They still make a lot of money on it, simply because folks out to buy that kind of beverage are more prone to trust it under that name. An IP expert, speaking at an event I attanded last year, said they rake in US$ 9 million a year in licensing alone.

  • artefact
  • Demo has begun — will run until midnight Milan time, DGT says.

    • It’s extremly lagging for me… 🙁

      • artefact

        I have a good quality

        • Tried on a second pc, but had the same lags. It’s running 20 – 30 seconds and then stopps and shows the loading sign.

          Can’t watch it this way 🙁

          • artefact

            I had no problem except for 30 sec no sound.
            But it happend yesterday to me in the beginning and got better after a while.

            Did you try a different browser?

    • Two tests. The first test will use argon (control, or dummy test). The second will use hydrogen.

      • They are using the 5th generation reactor. Designed not for maximum COP, but for them to control and understand the reactor.

    • Pachu

      Im watching it fine from Argentina.

  • Yona

    Hi
    Somebody knows if there is ECAT plants in operation somewhere in the world now?

    Thanks

    • Chris I

      According to Rossi, yes but their identity can’t be disclosed without their consent.

      According to skeptopaths, no Rossi is just bluffing.

      Take your pick…

  • Sanjeev

    Mats Lewan just measured the DC input and it was zero.

    • Mark Saker

      Yeah, glad that was confirmed

  • winebuff

    I was picking up the feed just fine. I wasn’t clear if that was the argon test?

    • artefact

      It is. There should not be a COP > 1 in this run now.

  • Anonymous Reader

    Is this available for replay later… there is a conflict with the ICCF program so most people will need to watch it later.

    • Karl

      Yes they said the video will be available later on.

  • Sanjeev

    Just saw Lewan connecting a scope somewhere to the mains supply. Great job there, he is not just a passive observer.
    The mere fact that they allowed a scope rules out many things here.

    The rest of the two observers did not show up, I wonder why.

  • Plasma is now ignited, and output power trace is now higher than the input. John H says they will gradually decrease the input power from here.

    Right now input is 2.3, output is 2.8

    • daniel maris

      I am picking up perfectly. Looks like it’s going well. Quite funny that Mary Yugo sounds slightly hysterical like he/she’s running out of objections.

  • Steve G

    Defkalion – has NOW Proven they are a major player in the LENR / Cold Fusion sector, they have proven they have a professional competent staff, we can congratulate them for this LIVE demonstration.

    • artefact

      and they even do things they get asked for in the chatbox.

  • daniel maris

    Some dispute between Matts Lewan and the guy in charge of the experiment over input power…Lewan seems to have a different reading from what appears on the screen (not sure in whose favour the difference is) but on the other hand Lewan is being given a lot of freedom to roam around and take measurements.

    So far I would say this was all quite impressive, subject to what the experts say.

    • Sanjeev

      Yes, he thinks the HV supply is sending 1KW into the box while the screen shows only 200 W.

      May be that’s due to pulses or some other issue. But if you add another 800 W to the input the COP is still greater than 1. No worries.

      • daniel maris

        True but such disagreements to leave a lot of room for scepticism. A shame. You would have thought that sort of thing would have been sorted out on a test run. I did notice that the guy was explaining you add two figures together on the display to get the total power input – could that be the cause of misunderstanding?

        • Sanjeev

          There are many things here that need to be sorted out. But we should remember that its just a demo, they are not trying to prove it thoroughly.

  • Allan Shura

    A historical first. The first public display of a working LENR or
    cold fusion device. This would historically rate on the scale of the first mobile steam engine in public in France yet there is still no coverage in the mainstream media.

    • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

      Yep, but we where there!

    • daniel maris

      Yep, shameful.

    • dsm

      IMHO there will be more coverage. Also this demo will boost Andrea Rossi’s status. Those who have learned not to trust him have a 2nd source of validation.

      DGT have IMHO given credibility to themselves and to Andrea Rossi.

      DSM

    • mcloki

      As great as this demo was. It’s still a garage demo. Not disparaging more a comment on the scale. When they can do the first mobile LENR driven electric pickup truck that’s when it gets nuts. Newspaper and TV need flash. But all they have to do now is have this scale. and I’m almost positive they can. This looks promising. I hope more companies come out of the closet and start showing their results.

  • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

    An now the battery pack of the camera is going out? LOL.

    I see Mary is also lurking in the tweeds, already harvesting for some nice skepto remarks about why the demo is fake.

    Overall very impressed by their openness and willingness to comply to requests from the web.

    Also they will now make tea with the steam. Like their humor 🙂

    All in all, so far my estimation of Defkalion is definitely rising…

    • daniel maris

      Mary Yugo’s comments are absurd. The guy have given a clear explanation of what is being measured and he/she’s claiming that no one knows what is being measured.

      • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

        I can’t take any of Mary Yugo’s comments serious. He/she obviously has an agenda.

        We are at the stage of demonstrations of LENR all over the place; Rossi, Celani, Defkalion, MFMP and more to follow. There is no denying now that LENR is not true. It’s simply the details that are not clear so we don’t really know what all the involved parties have exactly, but we do know they have something substantial.

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        We know before any LENR demonstration that super skeptics will say any and all demonstrations are a scam. A commercial reactor saving/making the owner money will be the only thing that will shut them up.

      • kasom

        just ignore MY

        • dsm

          Yes, hard to do but essential for progress in LENR/LENR+
          MY/AP just yells louder harder & more aggressively than almost anyone else who is anti LENR/LENR+

          I long ago concluded he is the most depressing commentator on anything related to LENR/LENR+ progress. The difficulty has always been that when MY/AP is being sensible, he talks very well on the topic but when he isn’t it gets very nasty. He also fosters a ‘pack’ of followers who are always on hand to defend him no matter how extreme his remarks.

          MY/AP knows exactly how I feel about his methods of debating so me posting the above opinions will be no surprise to anyone.

          DSM

  • Krish

    Congratulations DEFKALION !!!

    • daniel maris

      Yes, they seem to have redeemed themselves with a good demonstration. The COP appears to be around 2.4 and rising.

      • kasom

        the presentation is by magnitudes more professional than everything A.R. has done ever before, +10

    • daniel maris

      Excellent – Gibbs is the nearest thing we have to a sympathetic commentator in the mainstream media.

      • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

        Agree, love to hear his opinion of the test. He already said it was fascinating to watch.

      • Pedro

        Latest news: Gibbs got fired by Forbes immediatly after publishing this little article.

        • Greenwin

          And while Mark warns against jumping to conclusions, one cannot help but wonder; whose toes got stepped on by Mark’s enthusiastic post (and comments)?

          This is what happens to people who do not follow orders.

  • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

    Some sort of dispute going on in the background. Then they shut down the mic. Wonder what that was all about?

  • kasom

    only around 850 to 960 looking, unbelievable……

    ok NSA isn’t counted, but are there other sites multiplexing the stream for they’re users?

    • GreenWin

      The max “allowed” viewers is around 1250.

    • tyy

      Why is that unbelievable? Internet is full of crap, this not even entertaining.

  • artefact

    Its getting realy good.

    looking forward to see a video of Dr Yeong Kim presenting his theory.

    • kasom

      there is a phase of speechlessness on ecn because MY/Krivit and their multiples are watching DGT Demo hahaha

    • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

      Like the demo too.

      COP is around 3 now.

      Skeptics now have to explain away a couple of 1000 watts

      (Popcorn ready :))

      • daniel maris

        Most of the comments at the end of the livestream were very positive. But Mary Yugo seemed to have sloped off…tail between legs?

        I don’t claim to understand the science, but so much about this just made you think…this would be a very funny sort of hoax…
        And they certainly don’t seem incompetent.

        That said, they are clearly quite a way from a working everyday product.

        What would be great is if Defkalion could fit a prototype in a factory or similar and show it working on a regular basis.

        • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

          Maybe not Yugo but Andrew Palfeyrman and an id10t called Perestrojka came on strong at the end of the demo. Their arguments were extremely thin though and consisted mostly of shouting or demanding third party verification like they don’t know it’s a demo.

          This cannot be a hoax in the traditional way. It just makes no sense. Celani, Rossi, Defkalion have now done KiloWatt excess demo’s with third parties present and Rossi even has a couple of independent reports. Together with hundreds of reported lab replications of the effect, Occam’s razor suggests the easiest explanation is the correct one. In this case, LENR is real. All other explanations are way more difficult to explain and thus believe.

          My hope is that the pressure of being the first to market will accelerate LENR to market so that we may see products in the foreseeable future. That would be cool.

        • winebuff

          How is milstone explaining this away??

  • daniel maris

    There was a reference to magnetic effects from the reactor. Any comments from anyone on that? Had Rossi ever made reference to that?

    • GreenWin

      If the magnetic field moves (rotates eg) it will generate an electric current in a near-field coil. Not thermal conversion required. It is likely a very small effect, however.

  • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

    Big drop in output now. Seems like the reaction is stopping. That can’t be right…

    Do you people think Rossi might have a more stable output reactor?

    • artefact

      I think they said the want to do someting so we can see where the COP should normaly go.
      Ahh, sound..

      • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

        They just explained it. Apparently it’s part of the procedure. Sort of a cool-down of the reactor. I think they want to show they can control the reaction at will.

  • Sanjeev

    Learnt a new thing thanks to John H. LENR start at Debye temperature of Ni.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debye_model#Debye_temperature_table

    He also gave away a few more hints.

  • NT

    After this excellent LENR reactor feasibility demonstration by Defkalion, I think Dr.Rossie will have to come out with something of his own latest experiments to counter this. It is good to have competition as that will benefit us all, eventually…

    • dsm

      Andrea doesn’t need to ‘counter’ the DGT demo, just do a similar well executed one himself. He has the means to do it.
      .
      Many people have said over the past couple of years that if DGT have ‘it’ then so does Andrea Rossi (and vica-versa) & that argument makes a lot of sense.
      .
      There is a massive market for this type of energy in market ready devices. Big enough for many global players.
      .
      DSM

    • Greenwin

      Rossi has already done better. He turned his device over to an independent team of scientists who ran it three times. The results of those tests, observations, are in the Levi Essén Arxiv report.

      “Computed volumetric and gravimetric energy densities were found to be far above those of any known chemical source. Even by the most conservative assumptions as to the errors in the measurements, the result is still one order of magnitude greater than conventional energy sources.” http://arxiv.org/abs/1305.3913

      Of course one must clear the conspiratorial obsessions of people like MY who still think there were “hidden wires” and ghosts in the wall sockets.

  • Gordon Docherty

    Good demo – attempted to answer as much as could be without actually tearing the reactor apart. As of 21:26 BST (16:26 EDT), Input Power: 1892.2, Output power 2818 and climbing… (T-in 25.7, T-out 134) – minutes since start 195, gas pressure 1.2 bar, Coolant flow 0.43 liters / min

    • Sanjeev

      You can feed your numbers here and see the *real* COP yourself, so that you don’t need to rely on the “very high standard” skeptic arguments we saw today.

      http://tinyurl.com/def-1240

      With thanks to Alan Fletcher of vortex list.

      • artefact

        I hope they calculate it correct.
        That would be great COP 13.791

        • Sanjeev

          You are right. The calculations in demo were very very conservative, I guess only to keep the number of doubts and questions low.

          If they do it thoroughly, the cop may reach 20 !
          Note that the reactor was at high temperature and must have radiated a lot of heat which was not accounted.

          If you wish to go more conservative, simply assume the steam as water coming out at 99`C, you still get a very high COP.

      • Hampus

        Are you saying that the cop was 13?

        • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

          Cannot really believe it was that high, but the COP calculation should be very conservative as they didn’t include the energy release from water to vapor.

        • artefact

          They seem not to have calculated the energy necessary for water to become steam to stay conservative and not to get into the dry steam debate.

  • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

    All in all I sort of doubt that the “planned” drop in output was as planned as they said because the shutdown was earlier than expected (possibly due to leaking H2), but the demonstration was actually very well executed.

    I do wonder if Rossi will now up the ante…

    • Blanco69

      Agreed ZZZ, something went south when the output collapsed. However, I really am stunned by the level of effort DGT has gone to here. I cant conceive of any scenario where a master fraud contains events that we have all just witnessed over the past 7 hours. I may even nip over to ECN to see how the Flat Earthers are dealing with this.

      • Preston

        He was very tired but they said they were following a script that ICCF had approved, which included modulating the reaction. Sounds about right to me.

        • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

          I’m just guessing here, but combined with the earlier than announced shutdown I think something may have gone awry there.

          Still, a very very impressive demonstration. I didn’t have much faith in DK, but after this demo my mind has changed. Much more positive now.

          They are much further then I anticipated and clearly are able to create massive amounts of anomalous energy. A COP of 8 in a 1 hour demo was no problem at all where Rossi claims the startup of his e-Cat takes one hour at least.

          Rossi is still an “indipendent” test ahead though 😉

  • AB

    I’m very impressed by this demo. It has definitely changed my opinion on Defkalion.

    They’re also willing to reveal highly interesting details (please correct me if I got anything wrong):

    1) All Ni isotopes except Ni 61 participate.
    2) The design requires a temperature gradient through the reactor chamber. What could this mean? I’ve read comments suggesting that this hints at either the necessity of creating some sort hydrogen gas flow in the reactor, or multiple reactions taking place which require different temperatures.
    3) They employ modulated stimulation (ie. in pulses).
    4) No reaction takes place below the Debye temperature of Ni.
    5) To achieve high performance, a pure hydrogen atmosphere in the reactor appears to be very important. They were not able to degas the Hyperion completely after the dummy run with argon, and thus had lower COP than yesterday.
    6) The Hyperion needs to be in a faraday cage to allow nearby electronics to run undisturbed.
    7) The resistance heaters are connected together in parallel.

    Dr. Kim will also present a paper on the topic of isotopes in the Hyperion at ICCF-18.

    • artefact

      re 1) Kim Yeong said on ICCF 17: when he told Rossi that his theory says that only the even isotopes of nickel are reacting he said that is true and got very interested in his theory. So Ni61 is the isotope from the natural ones that does not react. Defkalion say that Kim’s theory is what is happening in the reactor.

      • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

        Anyone have any idea why NI61 is special?

        • Sanjeev

          Must be something to do with its magnetic moment, all other isotopes have a 0 value, only Ni 61 has a value of -0.75

          • Stephen

            Indeed… I was thinking the same thing: one obvious difference is that 61Ni is the only one with spin 3/2, while all the other stable ones are spin 0.

            This has also an impact on statistics: it means 61Ni (being composed by an odd number of nucleons) has a fermionic statistics, while all the others have bosonic statistics.

            But don’t ask we what consequences that might have: zero clue. Maybe because of these differences there is some rational selection rule that forbids the reaction in the 61Ni case? I guess tomorrow we will have some clues from ICCF18.

          • Sanjeev

            Imagine the possibilities !
            A great area opens up for new physics and new phenomena, perhaps a new class of subatomic phenomena where heat production is only one aspect.

            Just wait till the mainstream catches up.

      • Sanjeev

        Ni-61 does not perform, no practical problem at all, its amount is only 1% in natural Nickel.

        • Sanjeev

          1 to 10% actually.

        • artefact

          deleted. wrong place.

      • Alan DeAngelis

        I think Rossi’s patent claims that copper also works. Cu(63) and Cu(65) have spins of 3/2

    • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

      Excellent summary, AB. Some very interesting new details about their (and Rossi’s/Celani’s?) process. Hoping MFMP is taking serious notes ;).

      Also great to see you active in the comments answering the skeptics so they couldn’t take over the live tweets.

    • Sanjeev

      Thanks AB.
      I’d like to add that some more things were told, like they detected gamma (and will publish the data?)
      Other thing that was specifically told that they used HV pulses at 10000V, 110mA at 20% duty cycle.

      Note that Mats also reported 1KW at the input of HV generator.

    • NT

      A+ report AB and thanks for being there to help counter Mary Yugo’s usual verbal tirad that seemed to trail off as the demo progressed with real thermal energy eye popping results. This was one great demo and very professionally pulled off by Defkalion – just smokin GREAT!

  • artefact

    From Vortex:

    http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg84653.html

    “The presenter said near the beginning of today’s demo that the the power
    output calculations were not based on the enthalpy of steam although steam
    is present.
    He said it was their “gift to the skeptics”.”

    That would give a COP 13.791 !

    • Johnny English

      yes thats true….my contact in Def said…. if we calculated enthalpy it would be higher …

  • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

    I think Defkalion could not have done any better with their demo to change people’s minds about their LENR reactor.

    Have you changed your mind about DK?

    • artefact

      positive as ever

      • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

        I’ve gone from negative to positive

    • Timar

      Yes, that presentation turned me into a pathoskeptic

      Just kiddin’ 😉

      • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

        You hang out too much with your skepto buddies Mary, Andrew and Perestrojka

        (kiddin’ too 😉

        • Timar

          Wrong crowd lately. I hardly managed to leave the chat before they turned me into another zombie skeptopath…

    • Andre Blum

      from neutral to positive. And again, let’s not forget this also significantly increases credibility of the E-Cat.

  • psi

    Just to thank everyone for the comments on the run. I missed the live part, but I’m very happy to know that it seems to have been a success. Congratulations, Defkalion! I can’t wait to see Rossi’s next move.

  • Andre Blum

    I agree with earlier reactions that this was a good, very thorough, and relatively transparent demo. Congratulations to DGT.

    We all know that it would be possible to fake such a demo. The thing is: they stood there and did it, and by doing so showed they were very much committed to take a huge step along the lines of their plan. Again, there is a chance that that plan is evil, but I don’t think so, and I am thankful for the progression made today in either case.

    • Kommisar

      One question – given that 60 grams of material was added to the reactor and the total power generated, can we exclude the possibility that a conventional reaction occurred?

      • Sanjeev

        I don’t think they measured the weight of the reactor before and after the operation. We don’t know if there was 60g of anything there, its a black box.

        He did open the box before starting and it seems there is not much space to fill a fuel of a conventional kind there.

        • Kommisar

          According the the article at the top of this page, “60 grams of active materials inside the reactor — 5 grams of nickel, the rest is supportive material.”

          So my question stands: can a conventional source of energy be eliminated, assuming 60 grams of active material?

  • artefact

    From Mats Lewan:

    Calculations based on heating water only. However, at the output I only saw steam. No water dropping. #Hyperion #LENR #Ecat

    https://twitter.com/matslew/status/359784137680367616

    • Timar

      This issue has been raised several time in the chat. By assuming water output instead of steam they disregarded steam enthalpy and thus erred on the side of caution, probably by a large margin. The concerns raised by Mary Yugo and others regarding the lower thermal conductivity of steam compared to water are moot, because thermal conductivity only matters if there’s no constant water throughput. In this case, the water going in has been the steam coming out, so there’s no need to consider thermal conductivity.

      • Chris I

        I haven’t followed the whole thing properly. Are you absolutely sure they completely neglected the isothermal part? Ignoring the phase transition would mean the real thermal output could be as much as 6 times such a computation.

        • Craigy

          …yes thats true….my contact in Def said…. if we calculated enthalpy it would be higher …

  • Jim

    Wanting to know what I know…

    …assuming that there were improbable things such as (for example) no wires coming up through the floor, through the table legs, and into the underside of the box…

    …and given the fact that we can’t see what’s in the box…

    I guess credence depends primarily on:

    > the total picture of everything we know about the situation
    > they had reputable third party observers that checked the experiemental setup, measurement systems, etc.
    > they ran the same protocol with argon and got no extra energy

    Did I miss something major?

    Because then if we wanted to maintain some not extreme level of skepticism (e.g. something short of insisting on publication in Nature or sales as Walmart) we would be left with conjectures like “they might have a wireless device that turned on a battery inside the box during the hydrogen test”, which I can personally dismiss when placed in the context of the whole picture.

    So, again, any other major bases for credance?

    • Jim

      …”no improbable things”

  • atanguy

    Rossi 2 – DEFKALION 1
    DEFKALION shows some good catch up. Match not finished!
    A remark from mary yugo during the demo:
    “If this is true, the Saudis will buy it.”
    This guy starting to change his mind?

    • Timar

      If tomorrow there would be an announcement that the Saudis have bought Defkalion Mary would write: “Now they achieved their goal and ripped off the gullible Saudis…”

      • Stephen Taylor

        Forget the Saudi’s worry about the Busch’s et al….

    • Chris I

      One of the most distinctive features of trolls is “changing” their mind according to response by opponents.

      But the remark about the Saudi’s isn’t even that and it falls short of it’s reductio ad absurdum intent. It is only plain silly.

  • Johnny English

    there were some expert witnesses that were going to do the testing..but in the end John Hadjicristos had to pull someone from the crowd to do the testing…..
    The witnesses didn’t bother turning up

  • Sanjeev

    Rossi’s supporters should also cheer up !
    Indirectly, this demo only confirms that Rossi has goods. Although Rossi needs another excuse now, to dust off DGTs claims.

    He is clearly ahead with his ECat-HT tech, but as was said in the demo, the displayed prototype was at least 2 generations older than their latest one. So they are possibly ready to launch a product soon, good news everywhere.

    • MStone

      I am skeptical about the “2 generations old” claim. If you can’t get patents and your success is determined by sales to the public and private sector(and you have heavy competition)….every demonstration is an advertisement. And, you want to put your prize pig on the selling block.

      • CHARLES(SWVA)

        Never, never, never sell your prize pig. Keep it for breeding purposes.

  • George N

    This is great!

    • Stephen Taylor

      +1

  • Kim

    I Watched the entire Test in Milan

    Totally Impressed!

    How do you tell the world that hydrocarbons
    are now obsolete.

    Stuck on Stupid.

    If we could get to 2500 C we could turn
    water directly into hydrogen and oxygen.

    Turn generators for ever with only pure
    water as the end product.

    Respect
    Kim

    • MStone

      2500C ? Nickle melts at something like 1400C.

      You can split hydrogen and Oxygen from water at 1000C…and Rossi’s hot cat can get up around there.

      So, this test is showing a COP of about 1.2 Which, in general, is good. But, Rossi is regularly at 6. Does this suggest that Dafkalion doesn’t have the “secret ingredient”? That Rossi is years ahead of Dafkalion? I know they said this wasn’t their “tricked out rig” but still.

      And WTH has Brilloin been doing lately? It feels like Rossi is in pole position by a country mile.

      • Kim

        You right it was 1000c

        Even better reason to split the
        steam to hydrogen and oxygen and
        produce electricity.

        I saw COP of 2.8 approaching 3.0
        at today’s test.

        Should all be Main Stream News

        Respect
        Kim

        • Gerrit

          according to Mats Lewan the COP might have been 10 !

          2,7 kW in -> 27 kW out (based on assumptions of good steam quality)

          However, Defkalion does not want a discussion about steam quality, therefore they left the vaporization energy out of the equation ending up with a very conservative energy out, leading to a COP of 1-3

      • Zaxxon

        I’m not sure what the purpose of using the ECAT’s energy output to heat up the electrolysis of water would be. The high temperature makes the process more efficient, but it still requires electrical current to split water, if you were then to burn the H2 or use it in a fuel cell, you would never get back more current (due to losses) than you used to split the water in the first place.

        Seems like the next logical step after using the ECAT’s steam for a turbine would be to try to increase the COP enough that a thermionic converter (like satellites use) would make sense. Then you’d have no moving parts on the back end.

        • Kim

          Its just that I read that 50%
          of water will split to h2 and o2
          at aprox. 2500c.

          No electricity needed.

          Yet thats just 50% and it may
          not work.

          Higher temperatures of 3000c
          is better but every thing melts
          at these temperatures ect…

          Respect
          Kim

        • Babble

          The best method to produce electricity (from heat) is to use a closed loop steam generator system. One method for using non electric engines is a Cyclone Power steam engine. This is an all fuel engine but could be coupled to these LENR heat sources instead of burning fuel. The engine runs on a self contained closed loop steam system.

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        +1

    • Thinks4Self

      That might be possible. According to the SPAWAR patent back in April nickel produced only x-rays, if this holds true for Rossi and Defkalion’s devices then what they have is an endothermic reaction that produces x-rays with total energy greater than the input energy. Changing those x-rays to heat can be done with a fair amount of isolation to the reactor core. A foamed ceramic inner reactor wall with a steel outer jacket to generate the output heat might be enough to do it. If you generate enough x-rays in core you can heat the steel outer wall to 2500C if the inner wall has enough insulation value you should be able to keep the nickel from melting or causing a runaway reaction. Maybe you even actively cool the core with a double wall and a water jacket in between them.

      • Thinks4Self

        A vacuum filled void between the core and the steel exterior would help as well.

        • Dickyaesta

          ,but is difficult to maintain. 😉

      • Thinks4Self

        After further review the other wall would need to be tungsten or a high temperature alloy. Not being a materials specialist I forgot to check the melting point of steel.

  • Sanjeev
    • Kim

      Whats up with that HV power discrepancy?

      • Sanjeev

        Although he says the clamp meter was RMS meter, these meters are not designed to measure high frequency pulses correctly, so nothing can be said. The lower value measured by DGT can be explained if a duty cycle of 20% is assumed (Pulse remaining off for 80% time in a cycle)

        Anyway it should not matter, Mats considered higher input in his own calculation, makes marginal difference.

    • Sanjeev

      The real bomb is at the bottom, claims by Xanthoulis are interesting.
      I’m sure the clever guys here will figure out the names of their partners in minutes.

      • Kim

        A little irresponsible for a CEO
        to be bragging up pie in the sky
        interest from other Companies?

        Respect
        Kim

      • Ecco the Dolphin

        Most of the top 10 companies by revenue are from the oil/gas industry:
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_companies_by_revenue

        • Sanjeev

          Perhaps he means top 10 in listed areas. 8-10 areas of application are listed, oil is not there. But oil industry will also benefit from it, they need a lot of heat to process it.

          • Gordon Docherty

            We still need all the oil we can get |(without doing too much damage) for materials – that’s why its mad to burn it!

        • Stephen Taylor

          I’m hoping for Walmart….:)

    • daniel maris

      All seems OK apart from the HV input issue.

    • artefact

      He writes:

      “UPDATE: I forgot to say that according to CTO John Hadjichristos there are HUGE magnetic fields inside the reactor as a result of the reaction, in the order of 1 Tesla if I remember right, possibly due to extremely strong currents over very short distances. Hadjichristos says the field is shielded by double Faraday cages, probably the reactor body and the external metal cover outside the heat insulation.”

      • Sanjeev

        Its not possible to shield 1 Tesla with that box. Need more info….
        Perhaps they mean large EM fields are generated, which is just radio waves.

  • Lu

    Defkalion delivered this time IMO. Very impressive and hopefully they will garner leads for commercial development. IMO Defkalion and Rossi are in a similar position: can replicate the effect but working (struggling???) to produce a commercial product which can be controllable and maintainable over a long period (6 months) within stated parameters (COP, temperature). I also don’t trust either of them very much but clearly they have something. Next up perhaps is disclosure of Rossi’s business partner and 1MW installation details. Hopefully this year.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    Mats Lewan after observing Defkalion’s demo today, “My general impression is that it’s a process that is similar to what I have seen at Rossi’s demos.”

    Alexandros Xanthoulis, President of Defkalion:

    “Let’s say I have Rossi’s formula, but I do not say it officially. My scientists have found a way to accomplish it. They need three months. I know what is in the reactor. I know everything. It was done with spectroscopy at Siena University of Padova (…) They tested the reactor without [Rossi] knew what they were doing, he continued.”

    Rossi’s attorney is going to have a real good time with the above.

    • Allan Shura

      Results don’t matter for some patent offices just theory on paper.
      How can Rossi get government protection what they claim does not
      exist?

    • dsm

      Bernie

      I think you need to read your way very carefully through this discussion you participated in a year ago on this matter of “DGT stole Rossi’s eCat”.

      http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com.au/2012/07/some-basic-principles-of-defkalions.html

      You keep taking a translated interview where neither party is a natural English speaker and interpret it the only way you want to see it. There are other very valid interpretations.

      Andrea Rossi stated on JoNP that he never let DGT anywhere near an eCat. Also the interview later corrected the translated miss-statement that DGT had done a spectral analysis of an eCat. That never happened. There was mention of a university doing this but any such analysis was of the ash & would not offer any analysis of the way the components were structured. Structure is critical.

      Anyone who read Piantelli’s 1995 patent and Andrea Rossi’s April 2008 Italian patent, had a very good idea of what was going on inside an eCat. Andrea and Focardi managed to get their 1st big eCat working between late July 2007 and mid Oct 2007. So why would it be impossible for DGT ?.

      Cheers

      DSM

    • caotain

      quoted fm BK:
      …………..
      Alexandros Xanthoulis, President of Defkalion:

      “Let’s say I have Rossi’s formula, but I do not say it officially. My scientists have found a way to accomplish it. They need three months. I know what is in the reactor. I know everything. It was done with spectroscopy at Siena University of Padova (…) They tested the reactor without [Rossi] knew what they were doing, he continued.”

      Rossi’s attorney is going to have a real good time with the above
      ———–

      This is the starting point for Rossi’s attorneys: DGT has stolen Rossi’s secret!

      The e-cat is unique and its secret has been stolen and CLEARLY STATED too!

    • Chris I

      I doubt there is any legal basis for accusing anyone of anything, unless they had explicitly accepted terms and conditions against such undertakings.

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        dsm…….To counter your points…”Translation problems” ha ha, give me a break, Mats Lewan is a respected international reporter and very careful with his quotes. Lewan even referenced his old article when reporting on DGT recent demo, he thinks DGT cheated too. http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3228376.ece
        “Rossi said no one stole his IP”. Rossi was duped and he does not want to admit it, that is why he is so careful now about his IP.

        Your statement about patents. Rossi’s patent does not reveal his IP.

        DGT cheated!

        Cheers.

        • Chris I

          Who was this reply for? I can’t connect it to my post.

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        Chris….you stated there is no legal basis…..They had a written agreement!

        • Chris I

          I did not state there is none, I said I doubt there is any…

          unless

          Now if you are correct that there was a written agreement then yes, of course.

    • Jim Anderson

      Rossi’s attorney is not going to have a good time. Rossi’s patent doesn’t state the secret of the E-cat. So patent protection is very unlikely. Rossi has acted to protect a trade secret. But if the trade secret was given to Defkalion then it isn’t a trade secret any more. If the secret was gained at a public display by the use of a spectroscope then it was no longer a secret. Rossi was aware a number of years ago that intellectual property law may not prevent others from duplicating his work and he has planned his actions based on that possibility. Last and not least the way Defkalion’s device works is so different from the way Rossi’s device works that it is very unlikely that any patent would cover Defkalions device.

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        Jim Anderson…It was not a public demonstration, they had an agreement, DGT simply stole Rossi’s invention. Patents have nothing to do with it. Pretty simple, I have an agreement with a company to only distribute my invention, I bring it to them to demonstrate it, rather than just distribute they decide to manufacture and sell. Rossi goes to court to enforce the agreement.

  • Stephen Taylor

    My take on today…historic. Very difficult study. Tremendous amount of information not previously available. Look for Yeung E. Kim’s presentation on Thursday. Aside: Mark Gibbs from Forbes is fired….no, I am not a conspiracy theorist but fear the entrenched energy status quo.

  • E_man

    In spite of I bealive DGT and E-cat, I no understand one think in yesterday presentation.
    At the time from 21:10 till 21:33 the output temp rised from 143°C to 166°C. But inner reactor temp was all the time 355°C-358°C an coolant flow was 0,57 – 0.59 litre/min also.
    How to explain this please?? Thanks for answers.

  • Omega Z

    Mark Gibbs is canned

    http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg84681.html

    Ladies and Gentlemen,

    Following my last post to my blog on Forbes (

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/markgibbs/2013/07/23/defkalion-demonstrates-lenr-live-right-now/

    my tenure with that organization has come to an end.

    Read his post on Vortex.

    Coincidence???

    Guess he wont make his follow up post.

    • Dsm

      I at first could not believe this was true but it is, and to compound it AFAICT his blog as been removed.

      Mark says he is not associating this sudden action with his interest in LENR but one can’t help but wonder.

      DSM

    • fortyniner

      Mr Gibbs has been steadily wandering further off the reservation for many months. I don’t think there can be much doubt that his latest blog post was a step too far for his bosses. Some troll calling himself ‘Keef Wivaneff’ seems to have been commissiond to dump all over the comments section, and now Gibbs is fired – I would say that the message to other journalists is fairly clear.

      As he apprears to have become an honest broker in this saga, I hope that Mark Gibbs finds employment with a more sympathetic publishing organisation, and hope to hear more from him on this subject. It seems that TPTB may have been severely rattled by DGT re-entering the arena in this way.

    • AB

      So he gets fired on the same day as making what’s probably his most daring LENR article yet. Seems like an unlikely coincidence.

    • Moren

      We should all send e-mails to Forbes showing our dissatisfaction with Gibbs’s termination.

      He is our only “friend” in mainstream media.

  • Dickyaesta

    If you have huge HUGE magnaetic fields inside the reactor(accoring to Mats Lewan cuoting CTO John Hadjichristos) couldn’t you convert that in electric current directly.

  • Dickyaesta

    Hi Frank, Why do my comments now always go into moderation whereas when I had the all seeing eye in the right hand corner they passed smoothly. I am the same Dickyaesta or Dick_ya_esta which translates from Spanish ‘Dick(my name) is there already’. Thanks Frank for the care always and I hope you did have a good vacation.

  • artefact

    ColdFusionNow.org:

    ICCF-18 Day 3: PHOTOS!

    http://coldfusionnow.org/iccf-18-day-3-photos/

    ” The incredible talent at this conference is mind-blowing. The following photos from Day 3 hopefully capture the excitement in the air while profiling both the presenters and diverse attendees. Can you feel the vibe of history in the making??? “

    • georgehants

      artefact, would it not be Wonderful if all science felt, as you describe above about all new knowledge gained from Research only and not as now cling desperately to dead-brained “expert opinion” equivalent to the ramblings of maryyago’s etc.

      • artefact

        I just listen to “expert opinion” I trust.

        The problem I see is that science is too much driven by money and not by curiosity.

        • georgehants

          If you where a young student how would you know which “expert opinion” to “trust”
          Surely only Evidence from Research in science has any value.
          Without the clear (temporary) Evidence, is not the only comment or “opinion” worth making, we don’t know! lets do the Research and find out.

  • Gerrit

    The streaming didn’t work for me and I haven’t watched the video yet.
    After reading Mats Lewan’s comments, this is what I make of the demo.

    Defkalion demonstrated a huge excess heat. They have made a very conservative power out calculation, completely ruling out any discussion about dry steam or wet steam.
    They made a control run with argon which showed that only about 85% of the input power was measured at the output.

    Those who still refuse to accept that this can be true are left with only one possible explanation for what they have seen, that Defkalion has faked the demo. But the openness (“you may cut the cables”) and professionalism that Defkalion displayed is speaking against that explanation.

    Most naysayers will ignore this demo, because it was not a scientific validation. Others might demand things that were not given in the demo, like “independence” and “no black box”.

    But the demo won’t go away and it puts the 3rd party validation of the ecat in a different light too.

    The statement from Alex Xanthoulis that they are working with major companies is interesting news. Big oil might very well be one of those companies and they are not in to stop it. They simply want to create a whole new revenue model, expect big oil to lobby the government to make laws that will effectively give them exclusive rights for handling this new technology.

    It is fair to assume that anyone making negative remarks about LENR is either happily clueless while overestimating their understanding of the topic or experiencing severe cognitive dissonance.

    • Owen

      Or getting a paycheck to bash it (which I think is very common among serious trolls like MY).

  • georgehants

    It is very interesting waiting for Mr. Rossi to comment.

  • Johnny English

    Yesterday was historic…almost like the moon landing, and just like the moon landing there are people that don’t believe it happened..

  • georgehants

    Cracks in the Periodic Table [Preview]
    The discovery of element 117 filled the last remaining gap in the periodic table as we know it. But even as it is being completed, the table may be losing its power
    —–
    http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=cracks-in-the-periodic-table&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+sciam%2Ffeature-articles+%28Content%3A+Mind+Feature+Articles%29

  • Kommisar

    I posted this in reply to another thread but got no response, so here it goes.

    Given that 60 grams of material was added to the reactor (as stated in the article above) and the total power generated, can we exclude the possibility that a conventional reaction occurred, based on power density – as I believe was done for an E-Cat demo?

    Thanks!