Rossi on Transmutation in the ‘Rossi Effect’

Today on the Journal of Nuclear Physics, Andrea Rossi provided some interesting details about what is taking place in the E-Cat in terms of transmutation of elements. Rossi was asked if he uses different isotopes of nickel in the E-Cat and he provided this response:

We think that our process, the so called “Rossi Effect”, is , as a serendipity, also a system to produce 62Ni, because only this fact can explain the formation of atoms of stable Cu, even if in very small amounts; we also noticed that using eventually powders of Ni enriched this way, the efficiency of the E-Cats increases. But we are not sure of this fact, because there may have been errors in the analysis, so we are studying , as a side effect , this phenomenon. Obviously, I cannot add information regarding this issue, pending the patents relative to it.

The fact that they are still studying this phenomenon indicates that there are still unknowns for Rossi and the IH team; and again, he mentions here that the transmutations occurring here seem to be only side effects — not the main process that is generating the energy produced by the E-Cat.

  • Guru

    Of course, They don’t know what processes happen inside. With standard logic and standard model it is not possible to understand. I always wrote so.

    • Arnd

      Andrea Rossi repeatedly stated that their theory about what is happening confirms to the standard theory, no new physics needed. So you always wrote wrong :o).

  • Billy Jackson

    Hmm if we can create copper without radiation through transmutation via the Rossi Effect i wonder which other elements using other base materials can be created?

    • Bruce Williams

      Billy, I have been wondering this for some time now. Maybe there’s a whole lot of new processes/materials ? that are going to come out of Andrea’s work.

      • Billy Jackson

        Its been my belief for some time now that we are just now scratching the surface of physics and material sciences… i suspect that their are entire fields left that we haven’t discovered.

        • GreenWin

          Or RE-discovered as all this stuff has likely been learned and lost over millennial cycles.

    • Heath

      I think this is what intrigued ToyotaMitsubishi which led to their confirmation of transmutation. If it can be consistently repeatable at a low cost and scaled up, it would be revolutionary, especially for producing rare earth elements.

  • Gerard McEk

    Interesting to hear that indeed transmutation takes place. The explanation of that process is not really important, but the fact that it is a nuclear process is! The transmutation can explain the developed energy and I hope it will convince the academic world.
    Of course, Andrea has more often said that transmutation takes place, but now in the third third party report, they will hopefully report on transmutation as well and that should give some confidence in the still nay saying academic world that cold fusion is real.

  • pelgrim108

    Im hoping that the reason Rossi divulges this information at this time is because he saw it mentioned in the third party 6 month report.

    • Omega Z

      Rossi is not presenting new information.
      Rossi is merely repeating what’s been stated before over the last few years.

  • Ted-X

    Perhaps capture of hydrinos could produce copper? Nickel: 28 protons, Copper: 29 protons.
    Hydrinos have theoretical basis from the Mills theory. Hydrinos may resemble the “masked protons” from another theory. The main process is most likely due to the Casimir force/zero-point energy.

    • GreenWin

      Mills’ hydrino transfers energy by resonance to a catalyst. His CIHT cell accomplishes this via “self-propagating electrochemical cycle wherein H2O is converted to hydrinos, electricity, and oxygen.” The hydrino forms by shedding electron energy making it an unlikely candidate for masking. CIHT uses no apparent Casimir geometry as the catalyst in its reaction is H2O.

      However if WL-type heavy electron capture is in play, slow or “cold” neutrons would provide opportunity for transmutation.

  • As Michael Mckubre said, “smaller to larger is fusion”.

    • Andreas Moraitis

      With all respect for McKubre, but that appears to be a fairly transparent manoeuvre. Nobody would consider neutron capture (which could perhaps play a role in LENR) to be “fusion”. Usually, one would speak of fusion only if there is a coulomb barrier between two nuclei which must be overcome. A retrospective redefinition of terms in an active discussion is not very useful, IMHO.

      • bachcole

        This is a semantic (meaning of words) issue, generally not worth my time, except to say that it is not worth my time. (:->)

        • Andreas Moraitis

          Right, but that’s exactly the reason why I criticized it. Extending the meaning of “fusion” in order to be ready for all eventualities is not very helpful. If it should turn out that the observed anomalous heat effects are not, or not mainly, caused by nuclear fusion (in the traditional sense), then one should abandon the term “cold fusion” in the respective context, instead of using semantic tricks.

      • Job001

        Why slight McKubre, who is quite professional, honest, sincere, and has reasonable models offering results agreement?

        The coulomb barrier is an apparently modifiable heuristic with no demonstrable necessity, IMO.

        Consider high energy atoms, lattice shielding, BEC’s, tunneling effects, neutrons, virtual particles, multi-particle chaotic interactions, and Muons(Heavy electrons) which change models assumptions and thus coulomb barrier calculations.

        Standard physics cannot handle multi particle interaction nor even distinguish between particles or waves….Relevant issues.

        Poor models and bad assumptions require a large coulomb barrier, lattice has more DOF (degrees of freedom) then rigid heuristic mind models, IMO.

  • tobalt

    unusually lots of detail from Rossi. Maybe that indicates a closing release of the report?

    Anyway, that they are breeding Ni62 and Cu sound to me like they are creating neutrons increasing the mass of present Ni isotopes to 62 and eventually to 63 which decays through an electron emission to Copper63.

    The relaxation gamma emission upon the neutron captures and beta- decay might be in a low enough energy range so they can shield them with their lead shield. I didnt check that. creation of neutrons remains the mystery 🙂

    • Billy Jackson

      if its being published in September it was finished in July.. most publications have a 2 month lead to get their issues formatted and ready for print then distribution for the next month. The odds are very good that Rossi has seen the preliminary report.

  • LuFong

    A previous report posted in the comments of E-Catworld (sorry no link) called “Determination of Ni isotopes in nickel material from the Rossi reactor”, Per Andersson & Hans Schöberg found that there was no difference between the NI composition among new, used, and a standard sample of pure Ni with 2 sigmas (σ) certainty for Rossi’s E-cat Ni fuel. A previous paper by Sven Kullander had found “substantial amount of Cu, Fe, and Zn” although in my mind this does not necessarily imply transmutation.

    It will be interesting to see the results of the isotropic analysis if done for the the long term test and what those results might be.

  • GordonDocherty

    Opposites attract, nowhere more so than a positively charged nucleus and negatively charged electrons. It’s why we have atoms and not just ion and electron clouds. So, why doesn’t the electron just spin into the nucleus?

    The answer is, of course, that the nucleus and electron are not just “little marbles”. In fact, no physicist can “draw” you an exact physical representation of an electron. Instead, physicists imagine electrons as both particles and waves, to explain that they appear to collide with other particles while also diffracting like light. They also have spin (like a particle), and a frequency (like light). Indeed, It is their wavelike tendencies that are used to explain why electrons don’t just tumble into the nucleus, but that is really a “fudge”.

    What can be said is that electrons form shells at very distinct and discrete distances from the nucleus – and stay there, unless disturbed. Now, what is stopping these shells from just collapsing in?

    The answer appears to be that electrons can move between shells, from higher to lower or lower to higher depending on how many there are, and how many shells a nucleus supports. When electrons move from higher to lower shells, they emit discrete energy quanta – EM radiation (light,IR,etc) – in the process (experiments have shown that electrons don’t jump between shells, but do transition smoothly). When occupying their shells, however, and no external energy is applied, they don’t collapse inward. So, something is giving the electrons energy at the same rate they are losing it, and this ALL THE TIME. So, the electrons (and, by extension, the atoms they are in) are perpetual motion machines, like it or not, feeding from some more primitive energy source – and this is just the start of moving away from the “it’s not possible” world view.

    There is always a level below which electrons can’t go, however, at least as far as has been understood to date, but now we see a possible exception:

    electron shells form a field round the nucleus, while the nucleus itself generates a “parallel” (spherical) field around itself. This means the space between a nucleus and its lowest shell (and one shell and the next) forms a Casimir cavity. Normally, this cavity has the same energy levels inside and out.

    What happens, however, when the atom is formed from a Proton and an Electron inside a (larger) Casimir cavity. In this case, the Casimir space between Proton and Electron takes on the lower energy level in the Cavity. Moving the atom so formed out of the cavity, however, will now expose the outside of the atom to the greater energy density of “free space”. This will (must) cause a “space pressure” that will “push” the electron inward, much like the two parallel plates that fall together in the oft-repeated experiment. As the electron can now move inward (due to reduced space pressure between nucleus and electron shell), energy will be released as a photon – how much energy depends on how small the cavity was inside which the atom formed, but we can assume a limited range between the nucleus being too large and the larger cavity being too small to allow the formation of the atom from the nucleus and electron. Still, what is formed is, what the wider scientific community often refer to as “the impossible atom” – the Hydrino. Yet, we are now in an ideal position (especially among the Hydrinos formed in the smallest, still viable pockets) to “push some more”. This releases more energy but also adds or re-purposes released space energy (or, more likely – mass and energy) back onto the electron. The heavier electron + pressure + energy, when in a resonant environment (remember, this is one of the preconditions of LENR), now starts an irreversible collapse into the nucleus forming a “slow” (basically, hardly moving) neutron. Now, the neutron can now absorb further energy to move away from the place where it was formed. Being a neutron, it is now ready to join with still-free Protons (around and at the edges of the Casimir cavity) to form a Deuteron. These neutrons can also combine with neighboring lattice atoms (if fast enough to now escape the NAE) or with already formed Deuterons to form Triterons, Helium and so – and generally keep going to heavier and heavier elements provided the environment is right and enough energy is added (the amount being added to keep the reaction going depending, in part, on whether the next transmutation step is endothermic or exothermic). The environment has to be right, of course, with, in particular, NAE reaction sites (Casimir cavities), confinement (through a crystal lattice), excess energy and free protons (requires initiator + IR or “heat”), pressure, and zero impedance to allow loss-less energy exchanges (high frequency phononic / magnonic fields provide this)

    …and there you have it, new sources of energy starting at the nano-scale, that do not break the laws of thermodynamics (as it happens, the laws of thermodynamics are regularly broken for short periods at very small dimensions, it is just on the average for large bodies over longer periods that the laws hold – like Newton’s laws versus Relativity, even the “laws of physics” do not hold all the time in all places and under all conditions – there are always exceptions, not that this necessarily matters in this case, but appeals to the laws of thermodynamics when looking at the nano-scale for very short periods is not always appropriate – instead, the more generalized Perturbation Theory is a better fit)

    This also explains why sometimes copper is formed and sometimes not, and how LENR is just the extension of Hydrino formation in an environment conducive to further inward collapse of the lowest electron shell, this extension becoming easier the smaller the cavity in which the Hydrino was formed, down to the limit where Hydrino formation is still possible (a geometry, electric charge, ion density and ion/atom mobility game). This need for mobility would also explain why LENR favours NAE reaction sites close to or on the surface of a lattice – still influenced by the constraining effects of the lattice whilst also being the entry and exit points for the NAE cavities for ions and electrons…

    • Billy Jackson

      wait… that’s it? no TADA! .. i don’t see the rabbit that got pulled out of the hat… I see all those words i recognize them as individuals /waves at his word friends.. but when they all get into a group like that it confuses my poor brain… its now sulking in the corner… coloring. 🙂

      any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic… from my education stand point.. im still waiting on the rabbit and the magician to go TADA!

      • GreenWin

        Billy, the TADA comes from the trumpet player in the orchestra pit. Most magicians can barely afford one musician and sometimes get a stagehand to yell TADA from offstage. Gordon’s theory deserves a full orchestral TADA IMHO.

    • GreenWin

      “When occupying their shells, however, and no external energy is applied,
      they don’t collapse inward. So, something is giving the electrons
      energy at the same rate they are losing it, and this ALL THE TIME. So,
      the electrons (and, by extension, the atoms they are in) are perpetual
      motion machines, like it or not, feeding from some more primitive energy
      source…”

      This is where Haisch and Rueda make sense to me. Using SED stochastic electrodynamics they see the “primitive” energy source as the quantum vacuum /zero point field of virtual particles/waveforms. What intrigues now is the appearance of virtual differential between proton & electron since Casimir is usually observed in parallel plates. It’s appearance as a factor in ellipse or spherical orbits is cool. A recent LANL study suggests changes in Casimir geometry ruins their “proximetry force approximation.” Oh well…

      BTW, SED derived from ZP field appears to put to sleep CERN’s Higgs field concept (even though they “discovered” it.)

    • clovis ray

      Hi, Gordon,
      I like your synopsis,of this event, I will put it with all the others, that i have read. I agree with most but not sure about some parts of it.
      I too believe that things are being forced around into places that is not natural for that particular proton or neutron. It my belief that nothing is being destroyed but things are transmuted , and this process causes friction which causing the heat, some how, i do not have any training , in quantum physics, but you know is don’t seem all that difficult to understand, i would think that IH/ Dr.R, hopes that no one figures it out for a while at least, there have been many who have tried, i just don’t see or hear of any breakthroughs wet.

    • bachcole

      This is where you lost me: “Normally, this cavity has the same energy levels inside and out.” How is it that a cavity can have an energy level, and what does “inside and out” mean?

      How could there be a large Casimer cavity? Are you saying that a new atom can form inside the inner most orbit of another atom?

      Other than that, up to that point, for me, it was spectacularly understandable and facsinating. I had heard it all before, but your exposition brought it very much more together for me. Thank you. Disqus does not provide the click power that I would have given you, even though I got stopped at the “Casimer cavity”.

      • Ophelia Rump

        If the reaction is quantum in it’s level of operation, then the energy source is quantum foam, the particles of which come in and out of existence constantly.

        If you can tap some of the virtual contents of a neutron, and the universe continues to maintain the coherent existence of the neutron by continuing to replace the requisite virtual particles for it’s continued existence, then you have an infinite source of energy.

        This goes back to the work of Richard Feynman, the complete understanding of which does not yet exist.

        All other changes would be incidental, and studying them would lead nowhere.

        (georgehants, my apologies to Mr. Feynman for not having acknowledged his important contribution earlier.)

        • georgehants

          Ophelia, so many Wonderful scientists, all their work will one day be fully appreciated.
          At the moment most of their deep work is just hidden behind the incompetent science of today.
          Wonderful for you to say —-
          “the complete understanding of which does not yet exist.”
          Ha, I would prefer if you did not use that scientific term and instead said —–
          Science does not have the remotest clue what it all means.
          Best

          • Ophelia Rump

            Gladly, Science does not have the remotest clue what it all means.

            It never will. Science is incapable of interpreting meaning, it does not have the tools, meaning will be forever beyond it’s grasp.

          • georgehants

            Ophelia, you are talking about the incompetent science of today, hopefully, shortly, science will grow-up and start to combine the incomplete and restricting reductionist science with the far more important science of consciousness and the mind etc.
            Then we, I think, will start to see some real Fireworks very quickly.

          • Ophelia Rump

            Georgehants, Science may discover how to communicate directly with the universal mind, but the universal mind will need to reveal it’s own meaning. Science is very good with concrete “how” questions, but science is utterly useless for answering abstract why questions.

          • georgehants

            Duplicate, my comment disappeared and then came back again.
            I think it was lost in the Quantum uncertainty for a while.

          • Ophelia Rump

            Yes I noticed it seemingly leap out of order. I thought my mind was slipping.

          • georgehants

            Agreed, at this time but as with Cold Fusion if you don’t do the competent open-minded Research then how the devil do you find any answers.
            That sentence will be far beyond the logical abilities of most scientists, ha.
            Best

          • Ophelia Rump

            Like playing the lottery, you have to buy a ticket to win!

          • georgehants

            Ha, serendipity brings to mind our Wonderful Mr. Jung.

          • I don’t think the problem is that science is too reductionist, but that on the opposite it is too moral, politic and emotional today.

            Judith curry have made an article citing an autralian paywalled article

            http://judithcurry.com/2014/08/29/partisanship-and-silencing-science/

            this shows well than one the consensus is supported by “concerned scientists”, they shut up any dissented that is not concerned the way they are.

            it is policy to science, where science is a tool to justify a predefined policy.

            We disagree on what are the broken consensus, but not on all… I think that the solution is to stop mixing science with human factors like morality, politics, … and even with theory.

            first the evidences. and also accept that science can makes mistake and that it is not tragic provided it is done as soon as aware of.

            beside moral and politics, the cause of scientific foasco like cold fusion denial is that once they say “it is true”, the academic circles refuse tp change. this also make them very slop to propose “it seems true”, like for emdrive, because they don’t want to take the risk to be wrong.

            they have a so huge ego for science that they imagine they never do errors, and thus have to be perfect upfront, and should never recognize any error… which is impossible.

          • bachcole

            Precisely!!! You forgot to add that scientists as people as a group will tend to miss the mark on ascertaining the meaning of life and parts of life because they are head-cases, distant from their hearts, where love comes from. Of course, all scientists aren’t distant from their hearts.

            Example: Darwin started out in life as a theologian and poet. After developing the theory of natural selection, he couldn’t stand theology and poetry. He did not say that he disbelieved in theology and poetry; he said that he could not stand it.

            It is a rare scientist who continues to be in touch with his heart, and that is where meaning comes from.

    • Ophelia Rump

      I like your description, I would add that by current theory the electrons are very much waves while undisturbed in their orbits. They in theory only instantiate into particles when interacted with. Do waves collapse in upon the pebble? Waves are by nature an outward projection.

    • Ted-X

      I like your theory, I think it is the right one, all hints CONVERGE on this model. Combines hydrinos (confirmed by some sources) with the Rossi’s hint on quantum phenomena and the transmutations being side effects.
      ——–
      One thought… some alloys are apparently creating “heavy electrons” on their own… this could point to Rossi’s “nickel” being potentially alloyed with some other metal and having nano-cracks…. perhaps from the mentioned previously (by me) cryogenic pre-treatment.
      ——–
      What is interesting is that electrons in hybridized orbitals (e.g. carbonyls or semi-carbonyls of nickel, which are likely to be present in small quantities in ECAT.. eg. via the “acetone effect”) are actually passing THROGH the nucleus! … and not collapsing with protons ???

  • Billy Jackson

    if its being published in September it was finished in July.. most publications have a 2 month lead to get their issues formatted and ready for print then distribution for the next month. The odds are very good that Rossi has seen the preliminary report.

  • clovis ray

    Hi, guys,

    This is very interesting to me because it holds so many possibilities, I would like to hear a good discussion on the subject, Frank can you search and find the article where transmutation was discussed, if i remember right it was that NI was changed to cu62 and again 63 and a few more transformations I can’t remember but it was laid out by Dr. Rossi i think it was, it was a very informative article. I have looked a couple of times but could not find that discussion. it is my belief that this is the heart of the rossi effect, if not it is surly in the area of the anomaly .

  • bachcole

    My reading of this is that USED nickel (up to a point, obviously) would work better than fresh natural nickel. Please, if I am mistaken, dear reader, please correct me.

    • Ophelia Rump

      I cannot find another interpretation, Rossi just said that it does. Apparently he has been unable to prove how it improves the process. My take is that the improvement may be related to structure, not just composition of the materials, and that the process of breeding is critical to success, otherwise there would be no need for serendipity.

  • georgehants

    If Transmutation is True, then I hope many people on page are aware of the many apologies that are necessary from science of today to the Wonderful physicists and chemists of yesteryear, that have been dismissed and laughed at by dumb modern science with the insulating term Alchemists.
    This would include Newton etc. great scientists dismissed by closed-minded fools just like Cold Fusion and many other important subjects.
    How long will it take to replace all the incompetent textbooks etc. and give these guys the credit they have always deserved.

    • The biggest apology will be due to Solar Hydrogen Trends, the team that has demonstrated real transmutation at a scale that no one has seen before.

  • georgehants

    “Problems that remain persistently insoluble should always be suspected as questions asked in the wrong way.”
    ~Alan Watts

    • bachcole

      Like, perhaps, the duality of the subject and the object. (:->)

      • Ophelia Rump

        Anything less would be narcissistic.

        • bachcole

          Which means that every experience and thought, other than contemplation of the Infinite, is narcissistic. I guess we just have to live with that. (:->)

          • Unless of course you and everyone else are just figments of My imagination. The ultimate narcissistic thought.

          • bachcole

            That is called solipsism, and that silly philosophy can be quickly dispelled when someone hurts your feelings or breaks your heart. A better assumption is that not only is everyone including one’s own little physical, finite self conscious, but that only consciousness is real and we are all one. It is our identification with our bodies and minds that cause us to experience ourselves as being separate. (:->) Forgetness and acceptance come in rapid succession after one adopts that perspective, and life is oh so much easier.

          • Come to think of it, I’m not entirely sure that I exist either. Oh, bugger – I’ve just disappeared up my own….

          • bachcole

            Get a grip. You experience, therefore you are. What you are is an entirely different question. But you are. The most certain thing that you can say to yourself is that you are consciousness.

            I know; you are trying to be funny, and I am being a wet blanket and being serious. (:->)

          • GreenWin

            Don’t beat yourself up bachcole. In my Newtonian interpretation you both go well with a warm cup of Earl Grey and two lumps.

          • GreenWin

            I prefer to think of you and Roger as Fig Newtons of my imagination. That is, an illusion created by the impact of fruit falling upon one’s head. Okay… I’m going to have lunch now, and perhaps a wee dram.

          • Ophelia Rump

            There is always Zen.

  • In order for the complex universe to function so flawlessly it must be based on simple “parts” and must operate based on simple “principles” that will hold true all the time.
    What follows are my thoughts on this subject.

    Form leads function
    What does this mean at the atomic and subatomic level?

    What is form? What is function?
    We may say that form is geometry. But what is geometry?
    Many would readily say that they know what geometry is. They only know what it looks like on a peace of paper without understanding why it exists and how it relates to the universal space and time.

    What is a triangle? What concept does it represent?
    What is a tetrahedron? What relationships does it encompass?

    Without understanding such a basic thing as geometry at its fundamental level all observations and explanations of the “events” around us will be just aberrations of the reality and truth.

    You will know that you are headed in the “right” direction when you can replace your complex explanations with simpler and more powerful ones.

    • Ophelia Rump

      You should read Synergetics by Buckminster Fuller. He has most of the answers to your questions.

      http://triviumeducation.net/texts/SYNERGETICS-BuckminsterFuller.pdf

      • georgehants

        And even Wolfram.

      • GreenWin

        From the Preface by Arthur Loeb: “[Fuller] shows us a mind that accepts information in a highly unorthodox fashion and refuses to swallow the predigested. In rejecting the predigested, Fuller has had to discover the world all by himself. It is not surprising, in fact rather reassuring, that the obvious should emerge alongside the novel, the obscure together with the useful.”

        As George would say, Wonderful!

    • pelgrim108

      Reaction leads form.
      Model G is based on simple reactions in an open universe.
      http://starburstfound.org/model-g-transmuting-ether-simulator/

      • Ophelia Rump

        Wow!

    • GreenWin

      Enlightened thinking m2m. Perhaps form is more universal than the symbology of mathematics and language. It would seem easier to reason and communicate in geometric patterns than either of the latter. Your posts are thought provoking – thank you.

      • Thank you GreenWin, your posts have a lot of depth and understanding and I read them very attentively.

        Most of the credit for my current way of reasoning goes to Fuller and his Synergetics book. His work is my guidebook of the universe, physical and metaphysical.

        At the level where everything begins there is only form/geometry, more precisely awareness and relationships. Mathematics and language tend to obscure and hide the real meaning. The mind being a visual and conceptual processor comprehends the meaning more completely if it is in a “geometric” form.

        What is a line? It is just a representation of a relationship between two events (atoms, planets, ideas, etc.). The line itself does not exist but the relationship that it represents is very real with real effects and consequences.

        We could represent the two events with the number 2, but now the underlying relationship is not as readily apparent.
        Mathematics is an attempt to represents geometry (reality), it should not be mistaken for anything more than that.

        What is “consciousness” that everyone is talking about without understanding what it really means? Where and when does it start? What is the form/geometry of conciseness?

        Some food for thought!

        Have a great weekend.
        I’ll share my thoughts on consciousness next week.

  • In order for the complex universe to function so flawlessly it must be based on simple “parts” and must operate based on simple “principles” that will hold true all the time.
    What follows are my thoughts on this subject.

    Form leads function
    What does this mean at the atomic and subatomic level?

    What is form? What is function?
    We may say that form is geometry. But what is geometry?
    Many would readily say that they know what geometry is. They only know what it looks like on a peace of paper without understanding why it exists and how it relates to the universal space and time.

    What is a triangle? What concept does it represent?
    What is a tetrahedron? What relationships does it encompass?

    Without understanding such a basic thing as geometry at its fundamental level all observations and explanations of the “events” around us will be just aberrations of the reality and truth.

    You will know that you are headed in the “right” direction when you can replace your complex explanations with simpler and more powerful ones.

    • Ophelia Rump

      You should read Synergetics by Buckminster Fuller. He has most of the answers to your questions.

      http://triviumeducation.net/texts/SYNERGETICS-BuckminsterFuller.pdf

      • georgehants

        And even Wolfram.

      • I have not only read Synergetics many times, I have studied it for many years.

        The questions were not for me, they were for others to ask themselves, question their understanding, and find the answers.

        Obviously you have read it, but from your comments here and other places I suspect that you do not truly understand the underlying layers, implications, and consequences.

        I would suggest you “study” it this time instead of reading it. You will find answers to questions that you haven’t even asked yet.

        • Ophelia Rump

          I could never claim to comprehend the mind of Fuller.
          I wonder if there is an academic alive today with the requisite degrees in enough specialties to do it.

          My apologies, I did not know you were channeling chapter one.

          • “I wonder if there is an academic alive today with the requisite degrees in enough specialties to do it.”

            Why do you assume that in order to understand Fuller one would need to be an academic with degrees in enough specialties?

            I find that the opposite is true. Degrees in specialties tend to narrow and
            harden the path to new learning.

            From GreenWin’s post above, the quote clearly says how Fuller became Fuller. He was not born with degrees in specialties.

            “[Fuller] shows us a mind that accepts information in a highly unorthodox
            fashion and refuses to swallow the predigested. In rejecting the predigested, Fuller has had to discover the world all by himself.”

            To understand Fuller’s mind is to suspend everything you
            think you know about everything and follow his re-discovery of the world
            through the pages of his work.

            The “suspending” part is where most people will fail especially the “academics with degrees in enough specialties”.

            Most people fail to go beyond being “swallowers of predigested”, they are “allergic” to new ways of accepting and processing information.

            This explains rather well the current lethargic state of academia (and people in general) in the matters of transmutation and such.

          • “I wonder if there is an academic alive today with the requisite degrees in enough specialties to do it.”

            Why do you assume that in order to understand Fuller one would need to be an academic with degrees in enough specialties?

            I find that the opposite is true. Degrees in specialties tend to narrow and
            harden the path to new learning.

            From GreenWin’s post above, the quote clearly says how Fuller became Fuller. He was not born with degrees in specialties.

            “[Fuller] shows us a mind that accepts information in a highly unorthodox
            fashion and refuses to swallow the predigested. In rejecting the predigested, Fuller has had to discover the world all by himself.”

            To understand Fuller’s mind is to suspend everything you think you know
            about everything and follow his re-discovery of the world through the pages of his work.

            The “suspending” part is where most people will fail especially the “academics with degrees in enough specialties”.

            Most people fail to go beyond being “swallowers of predigested”, they are “allergic” to new ways of accepting and processing information.

            This explains rather well the current lethargic state of academia (and people in general) in the matters of transmutation and such.

          • Ophelia Rump

            Fuller was an eclectic personality. He was expert in many fields himself.
            I did not say people could not understand him. I said to comprehend, meaning fully comprehend. We can all benefit from reading his work. Each in proportion to our ability to comprehend.

          • Ted-X

            An excellent method opening minds is the TRIZ methodology, initially introduced by Russians and now in use by the defense contractors, GE, Samsung, Xerox etc.
            The relevant part is: the highest levels of invention are achieved in the areas of newly discovered (or not fully understood or controversial or “fringe”) physical phenomena. Rossi’s case is just an illustration of this principle.
            —————————————————————————————-
            Another interesting point from TRIZ, for this discussion group: there are only 40 Principles of invention (according to TRIZ) and all inventions could be assigned to one or a few categories from that list of 40 Principles. After more than 60 years of the application of the TRIZ method, the 40 Principles are remaining essentially in the same form as they were initially found in 1950s.

      • GreenWin

        From the Preface by Arthur Loeb: “[Fuller] shows us a mind that accepts information in a highly unorthodox fashion and refuses to swallow the predigested. In rejecting the predigested, Fuller has had to discover the world all by himself. It is not surprising, in fact rather reassuring, that the obvious should emerge alongside the novel, the obscure together with the useful.”

        As George would say, Wonderful!

    • pelgrim108

      Reaction leads form.
      Model G is based on simple reactions in an open universe.
      http://starburstfound.org/model-g-transmuting-ether-simulator/

      • Ophelia Rump

        Wow!

    • GreenWin

      Enlightened thinking m2m. Perhaps form is more universal than the symbology of mathematics and language. It would seem easier to reason and communicate in geometric patterns than either of the latter. Your posts are thought provoking – thank you.

      • Thank you GreenWin, your posts have a lot of depth and understanding and I read them very attentively.

        Most of the credit for my current way of reasoning goes to Fuller and his Synergetics book. His work is my guidebook of the universe, physical and metaphysical.

        At the level where everything begins there is only form/geometry, more precisely awareness and relationships. Mathematics and language tend to obscure and hide the real meaning. The mind being a visual and conceptual processor comprehends the meaning more completely if it is in a “geometric” form.

        What is a line? It is just a representation of a relationship between two events (atoms, planets, ideas, etc.). The line itself does not exist but the relationship that it represents is very real with real effects and consequences.

        We could represent the two events with the number 2, but now the underlying relationship is not as readily apparent.
        Mathematics is an attempt to represents geometry (reality), it should not be mistaken for anything more than that.

        What is “consciousness” that everyone is talking about without understanding what it really means? Where and when does it start? What is the form/geometry of conciseness?

        Some food for thought!

        Have a great weekend.
        I’ll share my thoughts on consciousness next week.

  • Leo Kaas

    My God, it’s full of stars!

    • artefact

      I remember reading that text while in bed. Had to read the book till the end.

    • Funny stuff Hal, I mean Leo.

  • Ophelia Rump

    I cannot find another interpretation, Rossi just said that it does. Apparently he has been unable to prove how it improves the process. My take is that the improvement may be related to structure, not just composition of the materials, and that the process of breeding is critical to success, otherwise there would be no need for serendipity.

  • georgehants

    silvio caggia
    August 28th, 2014 at 11:53 AM
    Dear Andrea Rossi,
    It’s time to ask you the simplest and the more difficult question: do
    you have any idea about “from where” e-cat excess energy comes from?
    Which are the particles that are “consumed” in the so called Rossi effect producing heat?
    ——
    Andrea Rossi
    August 28th, 2014 at 12:22 PM
    Silvio Caggia:
    Yes, we have a pretty precise idea, but I have to remind you that the results of the tests could be positive or negative.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    • GreenWin

      Dottore Rossi is of course referring to the flow of sinusoidal waveforms throughout the reactor which are both positive and negative. Reason for Schrodinger’s e-cat-scratch-fever. 🙂

      • georgehants

        GreenWin, trust you to think of such a Wonderful interpretation,ha.

      • Billy Jackson

        now see.. in my smart ass world i would have pointed at the output wires and say right there.. that’s where the energy comes from..

    • Ophelia Rump

      For Silvio Caggia:
      Floating in an infinite sea of virtual particles constantly coming in and out of existence, if a man dips his hand into those waters and carefully scoops up a few drops.
      Is it a reasonable question to ask what was consumed to make those drops?

      • georgehants

        I am saying to much tonight, if you wrote those words then my deepest compliments.
        And think what Wonder and Joy it could be for young scientists to attempt to answer your question.

      • GreenWin

        Not consumed. Formed from an infinite aggregate of consciousness.

        • clovis ray

          an Uncaused, cause.

      • Alain Samoun

        “Energy” is the answer…

        • Ophelia Rump

          Wherein we discover that correct is not necessarily satisfying.
          You do bring us to a point where we can ask better questions. Maybe even the right questions.

          Thank you, at least the answer was not 42.

          • Andy Kumar

            42 is the answer to everything. This theory of everything is on par with LENR theories for its simple insights.

            Interestingly, Technetium (atomic number 43), man made in the nuclear fire stolen from the gods, just misses being the answer to everything. I think we should honor Rossi as the modern day Prometheus for stealing the new
            fire from the gods by renaming Promethium (61) as Rossium.

            http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/history/42-the-answer-to-life-the-universe-and-everything-2205734.html

          • RogerKnights

            Maybe “Prometheus” or “Promethian” should be part of the new name for LENR and Cold Fusion that people here have been groping for. “Promethian Power Reactions”?

            It’s vague, but that’s not a bug but a feature. It’s suggestive and inspiring. Tapping zero point energy (or whatever) does seem like stealing fire from the gods, so it’s accurate at a high level.

          • GreenWin

            Roger and Andy,
            first, Prometheus is a Titan god himself (of forethought and counsel,) When Zeus withheld fire from man, Prometheus stole it from heaven, not “the gods,” and delivered it to man. Many assume “the gods” have some exclusive dominion over fire. They don’t. Rossi has proved it.

          • Andy Kumar

            Green,
            Splitting hair, are we? If someone steals from your home, in plain English, they are stealing from YOU.

          • GreenWin

            Huh?? You honestly think these minor demi-gods live in heaven? Or have some proprietary claim to Fire? Or a right to withhold it from benefiting mankind?

          • Aren’t you off by 6?

          • clovis ray

            42, lol

          • Brokeeper

            Considering biblical numerology:

            6 = man
            7 = divine perfection

            6 X 7 = 42

            Thus the “Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, The Universe, and Everything” is God’s master plan perfecting man for eternity.

          • Ophelia Rump

            It is difficult to say, the other alternatives include:
            Man creating trans-human.
            Man creating electronic cyber-mind.
            God creating herself through man.
            A great extinction.
            God is a Boltzmann brain in a box, imagining all existence as an exercise to fill it’s mind.

          • Brokeeper

            DR WHO 5:37? 🙂

          • bachcole

            That was funny. I sure hope that you meant for it to be funny. Just don’t make fun of the I Ching or else I will send Taoist militants after you. (:->)

          • clovis ray

            Hi, Ophelia

            I believe god is not what you said, but he is the author, Dr. Rossi said as much, he just call the effect serendipitous,and before he has said that god was directing this hand and mind, this totally brought me on board. it is my belief that this project, and plan was designed by him, and it will come to fruition. just my 2 centavos.

      • “Nothing” (no thing) was consumed.

        What is the difference between something and nothing? What defines a thing? What is nothing?

        These are the questions that when answered properly will elucidate and illuminate the mind to see the drops of “water” for what they are.

      • georgehants

        If a scientist wants answers beyond a steam engine then one has to begin reading links as below.
        Cold Fusion is like everything else, a Quantum phenomenon.
        A subject that general science tries to hide from everybody because they psychologically have been bred to be unable to utter the words —
        We do not know.
        http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/quantum-entanglement-delivers-spooky-image-captured-by-light-that-never-saw-object-1462953

        • bachcole

          My understanding of quantum physics and the uncertainty principle, which includes the “fact” that elementary particles are only some place in the sense that it is in that place on average, is that what they should be saying is “We cannot know.” Please correct me if I am mistaken, but be gentle. (:->)

          • georgehants

            Roger, you and I are as expert in quantum physics as anybody, as very little is known, just a few observations, do not be fooled by the Math.
            If you wish to learn Chinese history you do not need to learn Chinese.
            Backward science is only just beginning to except that the Quantum effects our reality. Photosynthesis, Microtubles etc.
            What science knows about the Quantum reality could be written on the back of a postage stamp.
            It is just a Mystery that reductionist science try’s as hard as it can, like with Cold Fusion to hide.
            Except that our reality is based entirely on the Quantum reality so we will learn very little about it looking at steam engines etc.
            Wonderful for our young scientists to investigate.
            It just says the World is not as you think it is and that anything is possible.
            That’s as gentle as I can be 🙂

          • “…do not be fooled by the Math”

            The Math has always been the problem! And still is.
            Especially when the numbers are mistaken for the reality itself.

            Math is just a language to describe the world around us.
            The meaning that the language is used to convey is the important thing.

            If the meaning is flawed it does not matter how good the math looks.

  • Ophelia Rump

    Anything less would be narcissistic.

  • Ophelia Rump

    I could never claim to comprehend the mind of Fuller.
    I wonder if there is an academic alive today with the requisite degrees in enough specialties to do it.

  • RogerKnights

    Maybe “Prometheus” or “Promethian” should be part of the new name for LENR and Cold Fusion that people here have been groping for. “Promethian Power Reactions”?

    It’s vague, but that’s not a bug but a feature. It’s suggestive and inspiring. Tapping zero point energy (or whatever) does seem like stealing fire from the gods, so it’s accurate at a high level.

    • GreenWin

      Roger and Andy,
      first, Prometheus is a Titan god himself (of forethought and counsel,) When Zeus withheld fire from man, Prometheus stole it from heaven, not “the gods,” and delivered it to man. Many assume “the gods” have some exclusive dominion over fire. They don’t. Rossi has proved it.

  • Andy Kumar

    Rossi had mentioned earlier that some cosmological phenomena are at work in the e-cat. I had asked him if he had accidentally tapped into the force driving the “expansion” of the space time fabric of the universe. His reply was cryptic in his signature Rossi style. So cannot say if they have the final theory yet of where the energy is coming from.

    • Ted-X

      Hey, it is another hint pointing towards the “Casimir force” and the zero-point energy.

  • Steve H

    It seems that the Hot Fusion guys can deliver after-all. They just need $50 million first!
    http://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/Suddenly-Nuclear-Fusion-Is-An-Attractive-Investment.html

    • fritz194

      …. took some serious competition to achieve that 😉

      • clovis ray

        Maybe cold fusion, or the rossi effect, is the judas goat leading the acidemic cash cow to her doom.

    • GreenWin

      Whenever I read “…at 100million degrees” it makes me sweat. Hi temp fusion has always produced dangerous radiative products. Why some elect to do things the incredibly hard way is baffling. Guys at Helion might do better to learn some TM before wandering down this path. We wish them well.

  • Steve H

    It seems that the Hot Fusion guys can deliver after-all. They just need $50 million first!
    http://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/Suddenly-Nuclear-Fusion-Is-An-Attractive-Investment.html

    • fritz194

      …. took some serious competition to achieve that 😉

      • clovis ray

        Maybe cold fusion, or the rossi effect, is the judas goat leading the acidemic cash cow to her doom.

    • GreenWin

      Whenever I read “…at 100million degrees” it makes me sweat. Hi temp fusion has always produced dangerous radiative products. Why some elect to do things the incredibly hard way is baffling. Guys at Helion might do better to learn some TM before wandering down this path. We wish them well.

    • Broncobet

      So they have used less money than IH.

  • Andreas Moraitis

    Right, but that’s exactly the reason why I criticized it. Extending the meaning of “fusion” in order to be ready for all eventualities is not very helpful. If it should turn out that the observed anomalous heat effects are not, or not mainly, caused by nuclear fusion (in the traditional sense), then one should abandon the term “cold fusion” in the respective context, instead of using semantic tricks.

  • Mark Szl

    Here is something a bit strange but not entirely. What if we and our universe are programs running on a computer. According to these folks that is what the universe really is and it explained quantum theory better than anything so far:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKkiy24LqBQ&feature=share

    So if this is the case then looking at bringing out this “hidden” energy is more like a computer programming problem instead of a nuts and bolts, billiard ball or wave problem. Hopefully, we don’t set up a program that gives us the “blue screen of death” and crash the whole universe. LOL.

    Anyway, thinking about things this way may prove interesting in unraveling how the Coulomb barrier is overcome with the right password.

    • An experiment to try to find out if this is the case:

      http://www.space.com/26969-universe-2d-hologram-holometer-experiment.html

      “An ongoing experiment could reveal whether or not our full and fleshed-out 3D universe is an illusion, a 2D projection onto a cosmic screen beyond our perception or understanding.”

      The nature of reality in 10 minutes!

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGAo5uLCPio#t=135

      “If you really want to see fear in the eyes of a physicist, just mention the measurement problem” Jim Al Khalili, physicist.

      • georgehants

        Morning Peter, did you get your canal cruise this time, hope so.
        So much Wonderful science hidden from the World.
        We must remember that all this has all been known since the 1920’s and on, but the average scientist is still believing that steam engines (Lister) etc. are the pinnacle of knowledge.
        You should never mention “the measurement problem” without having a supply of Valium to administer to out poor average physicists.
        http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/quantum-entanglement-delivers-spooky-image-captured-by-light-that-never-saw-object-1462953

        • Hi George. Just a working trip to do some rewiring this time. I just missed meeting up with Timycelyn, but saw his ex-working boat ‘Spey’ tied up close to where mine is moored.

          Yes, its amazing how long people can ignore something that doesn’t fit their preconceived notions. Like choosing to endlessly poke around in your tiny, fenced-in garden when it is surrounded by wide open new lands to explore. Cold fusion may be the technology that forces open the gate, but many scientists will still never leave the safety of the garden.

          • GreenWin

            Afternoon gents. Little gardens are safe and reassuring – except when drenched in pesticides; the soil overworked, watered with chemicals and artificial fertilizers. Many scientists have never tasted an “organic” tomato. Or the “wild” berries grown naturally in open new lands.

            Confirming a holographic universe does not prevent one from improving the “program.” In fact, it suggests opportunity to create powerful new templates more accurately reflecting natural habitats. Rewriting system code and subroutines is a mere technical hurdle. Doing so with respect, generosity and benevolence is a far higher bar.

          • I suspect that comparing our perceived reality to a hologram may be just a handy analogy based on current technology, like comparing the workings of the brain to a computer and so on.

            It seems unlikely that the projection will ever be able to rewrite the code that creates it, but if it were the case, humans should never have that power. If anything, we seem more like characters in a digital game, in which choices are theoretically infinite, but can actually only be selected from those that have been programmed in, and which follow from previous choices.

            This concept in any case just kicks the ‘problem’ upstairs – who then built the ‘projector’, and the ‘computer’ and ‘software’ that drives it, where are they located, who ‘manages’ the system? On balance I have come to believe (like Bacchole, above I think) that we are probably individuations of universal consciousness, all interconnected, subject to associations at various levels, our ‘choices’ partly bound by our own expectations. God exploring all material possibilities perhaps, through His imaginings. We each inhabit our own ‘realities’ – illusions generated in each brain responding to sensory input, which will differ for any number of reasons such as personality, culture, environment – or for that matter, species.

            We may be able to conceive of theories of ever increasing complexity to ‘explain’ reality, but are almost certainly entirely incapable of comprehending the truth, or even any significant part of it. I’ll just continue to enjoy my steak and wine without worrying too much about what is generating the illusion.

          • GreenWin

            Good points Peter. However, I think you overlook the remarkable effect choice to pursue cold fusion is having on the ‘projector’ and its programmers. Evidence of resistance to CF suggests the table of choices is regularly doctored – much like entries in Wikipedia on AGW, CF, UFOs, telepathy etc. While such doctoring may not be in the hands of a cosmic programmer – it is tolerated. Which is more like a grocer’s thumb on the produce scale. I think we can agree its far more “fun” to play the game on a level field than one tilted or sewn with landmines.

            Never-the-less, as I hail from the arts, I fully appreciate a good drama; which of course derives from conflict. And without authoritarian bricks in the wall we would not have so engaging a tale as that of Fleischmann and Pons’ triumph over Goliath. Always an entertaining story… and excellent draw. 🙂

          • georgehants

            COMMENTARY: WIKIPEDIA
            HIJACKED BY CLOSED MINDED SKEPTICS- MORE COMPLAINTS: THEY LOST THE DEBATE – now they are being
            very dirty!
            http://victorzammit.com/week26yesterday/

          • GreenWin

            Indeed. Which casts a dark shadow across ALL of Wikidpedia — even its chosen topics. Those who question the Wikid are called “anti-science.” What is amusing is how this transition will confirm the opposite. Blaclight Powers’ lawsuit against John Doe bloggers and Wikimedia editors will reveal much and hopefully result in a large punitive award.

          • timycelyn

            Yes, I missed Peter by around 3 days!

            Better luck next time…. 😉

        • timycelyn

          George,
          I’ve been mulling a point in response to the matter you raise from time to time regarding the (my words) corruption/dishonesty of modern ‘scientists’. Probably the starkest example of this is the one we have been watching since the F&P announcement, the deliberate suppression and falsification of results in order to shore up a multi million, almost billion, dollar big research business.

          However, be careful with the size of the brush you use, as I believe there is a whole spectrum here. Basically:

          1. Certain disciplines within science seem especially prone to what starts out as intellectual arrogance and ends up as the type of breathtaking dishonesty displayed by MIT. Physics seems very prone to this – something abut the type of mind that is attracted to this discipline, perhaps, something about the often need for big expensive projects. Others are much less so – chemists, I believe and engineers as well.

          2. Secondly, regarding the whole peer review system, it does work quite well – where we are talking about incremental gain, another cautious step forward. It is a ‘sort of effective’ way of laying down another course of knowledge in the construction of an edifice – like each slave building a pyramid makes a small, incremental contribution and advance to the whole.

          However, when we are talking major steps outside the box, in fact not a step, but a huge shift sideways, the whole thing is quite unsuitable, it’s a machine that works well with small changes, but totally breaks down with large ones.

          How can one realistically expect the peer review process to work for an Einstein, an Edison? Unless the reviewer is pretty up to speed on the topic (which if we are talking about a major step out they cannot be) they are left grappling with something they struggle to come to terms with, that may well appear to run counter to what they have been taught, plus the fact that endorsing it could be very career detrimental.

          So I would argue peer review is adequate for the smaller things in science, but poorly suited to the larger ones, and that scientists are a very varied breed indeed and we have within our ranks the good, the mediocre, the bad, and the terrible….as in all walks of life.

          Cheers

          Tim

          • georgehants

            Tim, thank you for your time, I have explained many times that there are of course good scientists and good science, but on a medium such as this it is impracticable not to generalise.
            Secondly the situation is so bad in many areas and generally, for instance Cold Fusion etc. that I think it would be very difficult to find any group that is innocent of the incompetence, just a few individuals.
            You have made the point with Einstein that peer review beyond steam engines is complete waste of time, corruption and incompetence of the reviewers will be rife as with Cold Fusion and many other important subjects.
            The point is simply to get Research published and that should be done freely on line, where any other able scientists can read their subject and if they feel a paper has merit then work from there.
            There should be no corrupt capitalist motives involved, as there is with every scientific comic, who pick and choose like demigods.
            Until I read in science magazines and journals that the religious incompetence and education system of science must be completely reviewed and all the mind-numbing Dogma and “expert opinion” laughed out of science, then I will correctly concentrate on the failings and not try to cover them up with the very few success of establishment and academic science.
            Any suggestion that a career could be effected by being a good scientist is not just bad but evil.
            You have not given any good reason for the suffering a student would receive if he wished to do good, honest scientific Research into say UFO’s etc.
            Cold Fusion is not an exception but the norm of closed-minded, religiously led clones.
            It is time, if science does not want to remain a joke of incompetents and Dogma huggers for every scientist of worth to stop defending these wasters and put their own house in order.
            Best

          • GreenWin

            Peer review is subject to science’s weakest links – fragile and inflated egos. This “prestige” element does not belong in science IMO. And it puts far too much control of tax & grant dollars in the hands of unelected, unsupervised editors of the most “prestigious” journals.

          • bachcole

            How do you propose to deal with the fragile ego problem? Perhaps we could have Ego Strength 101 in science departments: 30 minutes of lecture and 30 minutes of meditation. First lecture: “Don’t Take Yourself Too Seriously”. <>

            A materialist (read: scientist) is going to have roughly the ego that his childhood environment gave him. Anything dealing with the person, the subjective, self-improvement, transcendentalism, meditation, diet, etc. etc. is NOT going to be something that a scientist is going to be very interested in.

            Before you start throwing stones, let’s see if you react with your ego to my previous comment implying that you were an hysterian.

          • timycelyn

            George, I think I stand by my own set of generalisations that I made in my first mail. You give the example of the suffering a student would experience if he chose to study something that is not ‘recognised’ as respectable by mainstream opinion in that scientific area. I do not seek to defend the appalling way the “You’re not one of us…” thjng works to freeze out and destroy the career of the hapless enquiring mind. I made the point that the scientific machine – peer review etc – works well with small change, but is the pits with large change, and you are exemplifying my point. We can add vested interests stirring the pot some more, but the basic point remains.

            I would suggest that even in some postulated example where the most obvious vested interest could gain by the ‘step-out’ working the yawning chasm between ‘respectable’ scientific opinion and the new idea/proposal would cause dismissal and rejection by the peer ‘machine’. Basically the machine is in its most basic nature a contradiction, it is an inherently conservative mechanism trying to manage innovation. That’s just not going to work too well….

      • bachcole

        I adhere to the belief that the world is an illusion; only consciousness is real, the fact of our experiencing this illusion. So this mathematical/physics issue is no problem whatsoever for me.

        • Brokeeper

          So … you took the red pill.

          • bachcole

            I haven’t taken any such pills for 44 years, 8 months, and 21 days. I learned it all from Meher Baba.

          • Brokeeper

            Ah yes, a very spiritual man who lives his faith very well. I actually believe a lot of what he proclaimed including, although I’m Christian, in a form of reincarnation as taught about John (the Baptist). Unfortunately I still
            have to take pills of differing colors. 🙂

          • bachcole

            You are my kind of Christian. But if the pills are what has been implied here, I feel that I must caution you to not take them. I have been successful with building health, and with essential oils and surrender, I feel no need for colored pills. (:->)

          • Brokeeper

            Disciple is part of the word discipline which I have lost with my wife’s cooking. I just mentioned to her we need portion control. She often has said this physical life is just an illusion – which I agree – the real will eventually be revealed to all.
            As far as taking pills I must take Levothyroxine for a severe hypothyroid plus vitamin/mineral supplements. We need to find a good holistic doctor.
            I bow to your life regiments.

          • bachcole

            I was afraid that you meant an illegal type of drug. I take lots of pills, none of which are illegal or pharmaceutical. I do DIY health care and have been pretty successful at it. I can’t help with hypothyroid, since I don’t have it, but I can say that it won’t hurt to try DIY health care and do some ( a lot of ) study on the Internet. You do have an honorary PhD in Epistemology (you’re here at ecatworld.com, aren’t you?) and can probably figure this stuff out yourself. I am not suggesting that you stop taking pharmaceuticals, but eventually you might be able to reduce and even stop them.

            I might also suggest that you drop your carb load to a very low level and cut out grains altogether. Grains evolved anti-nutrients to protect themselves from foraging animals; grains have lectins, phytic acids, gluten, etc., none of which are good for anyone. This is a suggestion that I feel confident to make to anyone, no matter their situation. Also exit the mindset that there is somewhere a magic pill. There are good pills, like turmeric/curcumin and cod liver oil, but there is no pill that will solve all of your problems. Health requires a radical adjustment in diet and lifestyle.

            I know that Owen Geiger is going to go ballistic again, but my perspective is Weston A Price, paleo, and caring about animals. Animals are bros also. I eat very little meat, but I won’t turn my nose up at it. My diet consists of large salads with homemade Italian dressing made with apple cider vinegar and olive oil; very rich kefir (yogurt works) smoothies with a raw egg, chia seeds, home juiced ginger juice, etc; tuna (no sandwich, too many carbs).

            You can work out the details. I just look to how the body evolved and keep in mind the spiritual side of things. (:->) And remember that the big issue with old people is inflammation. If you can defeat inflammation or at least keep it to a minimum, you will have solved a lot of problems. Essential oils helps a lot.

            I hope that this helps.

          • Brokeeper

            Roger, I will take this advice seriously. We adhere to some of these but have much to improve. Thanks Bro!!! (P.S. You know I was referring to the two red/blue pill choices in the movie Matrix and I was just pulling your chain.) 🙂

        • Mark Szl

          I don’t buy that one anymore either.

          • Mark Szl

            Just to clarify since i did not post in the correct order. I do not buy the only “consciousness is real” idea and like the Chalmers/Tononi position better.

        • Mark Szl

          Off topic of cold-fusion but another crazy idea is that consciousness is fundamental but not universal. Chalmers likes this way of looking at the problem and scientist Giulio Tononi has developed a measure of integration called Phi. It is talked about here:

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_information_theory

    • Mark Szl

      Philosophers and Futurists, catch up! Response to the Singularity.
      Jürgen Schmidhuber

      http://www.idsia.ch/~juergen/2012futurists.pdf

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      Mark Szl…… Thank you for the site. Fascinating!

    • Omega Z

      “deja vu”
      The experience we have on Reboot right after the Blue Screen of Death.

  • georgehants

    From Cold Fusion Now
    Dr. Sally Goerner Discusses Chaos, Complexity & Social Transition — Interview
    Necessary conditions for self-organization; corruption; focus on what
    energizes you; thinking outside the box; reading & synthesizing; the
    politics of resignation; transition from medieval worldview to modern
    age; distortion of society’s root metaphor; After the Clockwork Universe
    http://coldfusionnow.org/dr-sally-goerner-discusses-chaos-complexity-social-transition-interview/

    • orsobubu

      interesting, but since the author talks about self-organization and evolution, this would imply that the ruling class surrenders peacefully its privileges without fighting for them. This will never happen. they will destroy reverything, if necessary. I would, in their place. We must focus on hierarchical organization and revolution, instead.

      • georgehants

        orsobubu, I hope you mean peaceful “revolution”.
        As keen as I am to see change I in no way would think of anything beyond a gentle persuasion, appealing to peoples better sides.
        It may take time and many will continue to suffer but Gandhi was right, I think.

        • MikeP

          georgehants … Gandhi succeeded because of the underlying ethical worldview of the British. The British could not stomach mass killings of people not fighting or resisting. Imagine if Russia had been in control. Non-violent resistance would have simply led to mass executions of those resisting. In the case of Russia, their worldview traces back to the Golden Horde and therefore spans centuries. This is not something that will change quickly. I believe it can change, but needs significant time and effort from the rest of the world – it should not be assumed that people will simply “see the light”, just because you see and understand the world differently.

          • Andy Kumar

            If it were Hitler, Gandhi would have disappeared in the dark of the night. George, you can be proud to be a Brit. I say that as an Indian.

        • bachcole

          I agree 110% with georgehants. We can already see how in some countries the change towards more equality is smooth, like the Scandinavian countries, compared with the more wrathful change, like in the Soviet Union and China The change in the Soviet Union and China was powered by anger/hatred and ideology. In Scandinavia, life is good. In the old Soviet Union, well, the word “old” tells you everything that you need to know. In China, they can’t go back to capitalism fast enough. But it is not the goal or the equality that is the issue; it is the means to that goal. As they say so often, the ends do not justify the means. The means color the result, and if your means are mean-spirited and hate filled, your result will be worse than shit.

          • GreenWin

            Hey Rog… I’m considered “old” in my culture, yet referred to as a young man in others. But I get your drift. Skeptopaths are fueled by hatred and this soft revolution proves it a failed path.

          • bachcole

            To tell you the truth, I harbor some anger at skeptopaths for the years 1996 to about 2002 when I figured it out that they were filled with hatred and anger and there was just no good purpose served conversing with them. I need to abandon that anger. And this is why I recommend to everyone else exactly what they are about and that they should simply not read their posts if possible. It reduces the total amount of hatred in the world if we don’t read their posts.

        • Robert Ellefson

          Gandhi used violence extensively in order to accomplish his objectives; he just used it in unconventional ways, by sending massive numbers of his supporters to martyrdom, with the goal of generating sympathy among the elites of English society. It worked well, but violence was in fact a key tactic that enabled him to accomplish many of his goals.

          • Ophelia Rump

            Thank you, after all these years waiting, finally a new perversion.

          • Accurate history is not perversion.
            Inaccurate world view due to not knowing accurate historical facts is perversion.

          • Ophelia Rump

            Gandhi as mass murderer of his own followers. What a concept.

            How about Mother Theresa incubating diseases in the bodies of the poor? Biological warfare promoted by the Vatican, or was she a genocidal maniac acting independently?

          • Alan DeAngelis

            Sounds like a globalist brain storming session.
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PIz1Mm6ur8

          • bachcole

            And it would have been completely unnecessary if the British weren’t also using violence to maintain their grip on India. I hardly think that Gandhi’s non-violence is on the same moral level as the British violence.

  • georgehants

    orsobubu, I hope you mean peaceful “revolution”.
    As keen as I am to see change I in no way would think of anything beyond a gentle persuasion, appealing to peoples better sides.
    It may take time and many will continue to suffer but Gandhi was right, I think.

    • Robert Ellefson

      Gandhi used violence extensively in order to accomplish his objectives; he just used it in unconventional ways, by sending massive numbers of his supporters to martyrdom, with the goal of generating sympathy among the elites of English society. It worked well, but violence was in fact a key tactic that enabled him to accomplish many of his goals.

      • Ophelia Rump

        Thank you, after all these years waiting, finally a new perversion.

        • Fortyniner

          Come to think of it, I’m not entirely sure that I exist either. Oh, bugger – I’ve just disappeared up my own….

          • bachcole

            Get a grip. You experience, therefore you are. What you are is an entirely different question. But you are. The most certain thing that you can say to yourself is that you are consciousness.

            I know; you are trying to be funny, and I am being a wet blanket and being serious. (:->)

          • GreenWin

            Don’t beat yourself up bachcole. In my Newtonian interpretation you both go well with a warm cup of Earl Grey and two lumps.

        • Ophelia Rump

          Atomic waste is a small but persistent problem. If transmutation can also be used to produce rare and exotic elements from common ones, whole new paths for technology will become practical. It is impossible to predict the potential of such a thing.

          • GreenWin

            It’s not that small OR. The US alone has 80,000 tons of untreated radioactive waste and no safe place to store it. NRC has decided to turn a blind eye and let nuke power plants store it in temporary dumps on site. LENR promises good possibility of transmuting this waste via a process like Mitsubishi’s patent app. If our DOE brain trust would wake up, they would provide reasonable funding to Mitsubishi licensees and similar processes to address the problem like adults – rather than bury it in the ground.

      • bachcole

        And it would have been completely unnecessary if the British weren’t also using violence to maintain their grip on India. I hardly think that Gandhi’s non-violence is on the same moral level as the British violence.

        • Heath

          I agree. As far as the nuclear waste problem, I believe the GeNie reactor (co-developed with SPAWAR) can use existing waste as fuel. By the way, what has been happening with Global Energy Corporation lately?

        • US_Citizen71

          A NDA would explain his use of the positive or negative mantra. He has been briefed on what he can or can’t say and when he can say it in regards to the test, when questions wander into that area he repeats his mantra.

  • Fortyniner

    An experiment to try to find out if this is the case:

    http://www.space.com/26969-universe-2d-hologram-holometer-experiment.html

    “An ongoing experiment could reveal whether or not our full and fleshed-out 3D universe is an illusion, a 2D projection onto a cosmic screen beyond our perception or understanding.”

    • georgehants

      Morning Peter, did you get your canal cruise this time, hope so.
      So much Wonderful science hidden from the World.
      We must remember that all this has all been known since the 1920’s and on, but the average scientist is still believing that steam engines (Lister) etc. are the pinnacle of knowledge.
      You should never mention “the measurement problem” without having a supply of Valium to administer to out poor average physicists.

      • Fortyniner

        Hi George. Just a working trip to do some rewiring this time. I just missed meeting up with Timycelyn, but saw his working boat ‘Spey’ moored up close to where mine is moored.

        Yes, its amazing how long people can ignore something that doesn’t fit their preconceived notions. Like choosing to endlessly poke around in your tiny, fenced-in garden when it is surrounded by wide open new lands to explore. Cold fusion may be the technology that forces open the gate, but many scientists will still never leave the safety of the garden.

        • GreenWin

          Afternoon gents. Little gardens are safe and reassuring – except when drenched in pesticides; the soil overworked, watered with chemicals and artificial fertilizers. Many scientists have never tasted an “organic” tomato. Or the “wild” berries grown naturally in open new lands.

          Confirming a holographic universe does not prevent one from improving the “program.” In fact, it suggests opportunity to create powerful new templates more accurately reflecting natural habitats. Rewriting system code and subroutines is a mere technical hurdle. Doing so with respect, generosity and benevolence is a far higher bar.

          • Fortyniner

            I have some suspicion that comparing our perceived reality to a hologram is just a handy analogy based on current technology, like comparing the workings of the brain to a computer. Apart from anything else, we all inhabit our own ‘realities’ – illusions generated in each brain responding to sensory input, which will differ for any number of reasons.

            It seems unlikely that the projection will ever be able to rewrite the code that creates it, but if it were the case, humans should never have that power. This concept in any case just kicks the ‘problem’ upstairs – who then built the ‘projector’, and the ‘computer’ and ‘software’ that drives it? On balance I have come to believe (like Bacchole, above I think) that we are probably individuations of universal consciousness, all interconnected, subject to associations at various levels, and in part bound by our own expectations.

            We may be able to conceive of theories of ever increasing complexity to ‘explain’ reality, but are almost certainly entirely incapable of comprehending the truth, or even a significant part of it. I’ll just continue to enjoy my steak and wine, without worrying too much about what is generating the illusion.

          • GreenWin

            Good points Peter. However, I think you overlook the remarkable effect choice to pursue cold fusion is having on the ‘projector’ and its programmers. Evidence of resistance to CF suggests the table of choices is regularly doctored – much like entries in Wikipedia on AGW, CF, UFOs, telepathy etc. While such doctoring may not be in the hands of a cosmic programmer – it is tolerated. Which is more like a grocer’s thumb on the produce scale. I think we can agree its far more “fun” to play the game on a level field than one tilted or sewn with landmines.

            Never-the-less, as I hail from the arts, I fully appreciate a good drama; which of course derives from conflict. And without authoritarian bricks in the wall we would not have so engaging a tale as that of Fleischmann and Pons’ triumph over Goliath. Always an entertaining story… and excellent draw. 🙂

          • georgehants

            COMMENTARY: WIKIPEDIA
            HIJACKED BY CLOSED MINDED SKEPTICS- MORE COMPLAINTS: THEY LOST THE DEBATE – now they are being
            very dirty!
            http://victorzammit.com/week26yesterday/

          • GreenWin

            Indeed. Which casts a dark shadow across ALL of Wikidpedia — even its chosen topics. Those who question the Wikid are called “anti-science.” What is amusing is how this transition will confirm the opposite. Blaclight Powers’ lawsuit against John Doe bloggers and Wikimedia editors will reveal much and hopefully result in a large punitive award.

        • timycelyn

          Yes, I missed Peter by around 3 days!

          Better luck next time…. 😉

      • timycelyn

        George,
        I’ve been mulling a point in response to the matter you raise from time to time regarding the (my words) corruption/dishonesty of modern ‘scientists’. Probably the starkest example of this is the one we have been watching since the F&P announcement, the deliberate suppression and falsification of results in order to shore up a multi million, almost billion, dollar big research business.

        However, be careful with the size of the brush you use, as I believe there is a whole spectrum here. Basically:

        1. Certain disciplines within science seem especially prone to what starts out as intellectual arrogance and ends up as the type of breathtaking dishonesty displayed by MIT. Physics seems very prone to this – something abut the type of mind that is attracted to this discipline, perhaps, something about the often need for big expensive projects. Others are much less so – chemists, I believe and engineers as well.

        2. Secondly, regarding the whole peer review system, it does work quite well – where we are talking about incremental gain, another cautious step forward. It is a ‘sort of effective’ way of laying down another course of knowledge in the construction of an edifice – like each slave building a pyramid makes a small, incremental contribution and advance to the whole.

        However, when we are talking major steps outside the box, in fact not a step, but a huge shift sideways, the whole thing is quite unsuitable, it’s a machine that works well with small changes, but totally breaks down with large ones.

        How can one realistically expect the peer review process to work for an Einstein, an Edison? Unless the reviewer is pretty up to speed on the topic (which if we are talking about a major step out they cannot be) they are left grappling with something they struggle to come to terms with, that may well appear to run counter to what they have been taught, plus the fact that endorsing it could be very career detrimental.

        So I would argue peer review is adequate for the smaller things in science, but poorly suited to the larger ones, and that scientists are a very varied breed indeed and we have within our ranks the good, the mediocre, the bad, and the terrible….as in all walks of life.

        Cheers

        Tim

        • georgehants

          Tim, thank you for your time, I have explained many times that there are of course good scientists and good science, but on a medium such as this it is impracticable not to generalise.
          Secondly the situation is so bad in many areas and generally, for instance Cold Fusion etc. that I think it would be very difficult to find any group that is innocent of the incompetence, just a few individuals.
          You have made the point with Einstein that peer review beyond steam engines is complete waste of time, corruption and incompetence of the reviewers will be rife as with Cold Fusion and many other important subjects.
          The point is simply to get Research published and that should be done freely on line, where any other able scientists can read their subject and if they feel a paper has merit then work from there.
          There should be no corrupt capitalist motives involved, as there is with every scientific comic who pick and choose like demigods.
          Until I read in science magazines and journals that the religious incompetence and education system of science must be completely reviewed and all the mind-numbing Dogma and “expert opinion” laughed out of science, then I will correctly concentrate on the failings and not try to cover them up with the very few success of establishment and academic science.
          Any suggestion that a career could be effected by being a good scientist is not just bad but evil.
          You have not given any good reason for the suffering a student would receive if he wished to do good, honest scientific Research into say UFO’s etc.
          Cold Fusion is not an exception but the norm of closed-minded, religiously led clones.
          It is time, if science does not want to remain a joke of incompetents and Dogma huggers for every scientist of worth to stop defending these wasters and put their own house in order.
          Best

          • GreenWin

            Peer review is subject to science’s weakest links – fragile and inflated egos. This “prestige” element does not belong in science IMO. And it puts far too much control of tax & grant dollars in the hands of unelected, unsupervised editors of the most “prestigious” journals.

          • timycelyn

            George, I think I stand by my own set of generalisations that I made in my first mail. You give the example of the suffering a student would experience if he chose to study something that is not ‘recognised’ as respectable by mainstream opinion in that scientific area. I do not seek to defend the appalling way the “You’re not one of us…” thjng works to freeze out and destroy the career of the hapless enquiring mind. I made the point that the scientific machine – peer review etc – works well with small change, but is the pits with large change, and you are exemplifying my point. We can add vested interests stirring the pot some more, but the basic point remains.

            I would suggest that even in some postulated example where the most obvious vested interest could gain by the ‘step-out’ working the yawning chasm between ‘respectable’ scientific opinion and the new idea/proposal would cause dismissal and rejection by the peer ‘machine’. Basically the machine is in its most basic nature a contradiction, it is an inherently conservative mechanism trying to manage innovation. That’s just not going to work too well….

    • Ophelia Rump

      There is always Zen.

      • Ted-X

        The uncertainty “(+/-)” is for the eagle circling high in the sky and not certain if the cat is alive or dead. Predatory birds do not eat dead meat.

  • Ted-X

    An excellent method opening minds is the TRIZ methodology, initially introduced by Russians and now in use by the defense contractors, GE, Samsung, Xerox etc.
    The relevant part is: the highest levels of invention are achieved in the areas of newly discovered (or not fully understood or controversial or “fringe”) physical phenomena. Rossi’s case is just an illustration of this principle.
    —————————————————————————————-
    Another interesting point from TRIZ, for this discussion group: there are only 40 Principles of invention (according to TRIZ) and all inventions could be assigned to one or a few categories from that list of 40 Principles. After more than 60 years of the application of the TRIZ method, the 40 Principles are remaining essentially in the same form as they were initially found in 1950s.

  • clovis ray

    It my belief, that transmutation, could be a bigger development that excess heat, great as that is.
    for instance,neutralizing atomic waste, what a god sent that would be.

    • Billy Jackson

      I agree, only in recent years have we had the ability to see and manipulate at the near atomic layer. going a step further and actually start controlling transmutations of specific materials is going to be a huge leap forward for Material Sciences. With Energy, Material, Medical and Computer Electronics all facing potential vast leaps in the next few years we are on the verge of potentially seeing the start of the so called age of abundance.

      • bachcole

        There will be problems in the age of abundance. I guarantee it. We are already in an age of abundance for hundreds of millions of people in North America, Europe, Japan, a few in India, Russia, China, etc. These people are NOT all incredibly happy. Some are drug addicts, serial murderers, lonely, workaholics, rapists, video game addicts, mentally ill, obese, other physically ill, etc. etc. etc.

        • Billy Jackson

          Hmm i see your thought line but i am unsure if i agree with it in its entirety. There will always be a subset of people that suffer under any system that we devise. quite simply their is no perfect system. Most of the issues you described are Social Issues or Psychological issues. While some possibly may be solvable in the future, Obese, Mentally Ill, Physically Ill, Drug Addicts.. these are medical and possibly curable.. obviously not in the near future but hopefully down the road we will begin to conquer even things today we see as impossible.

          Hopefully as we conquer the physical issues of our limited resources it will slowly begin to change our social issues.

    • Ophelia Rump

      Atomic waste is a small but persistent problem, if we no longer needed to produce it in volume, transmutation would not be needed as much.

      If transmutation can also be used to produce rare and exotic elements from common ones, whole new paths for technology will become practical. It is impossible to predict the potential of such a thing.

      • GreenWin

        It’s not that small OR. The US alone has 80,000 tons of untreated radioactive waste and no safe place to store it. NRC has decided to turn a blind eye and let nuke power plants store it in temporary dumps on site. LENR promises good possibility of transmuting this waste via a process like Mitsubishi’s patent app. If our DOE brain trust would wake up, they would provide reasonable funding to Mitsubishi licensees and similar processes to address the problem like adults – rather than bury it in the ground.

        • bachcole

          Equivalent to roughly a cube 50 feet or 16.9 meters on a side, assuming 15 grams per cubic centimeter.

          • GreenWin

            It is not the volume Roger. Nuclear waste includes everything used inside hot areas of a reactor e.g. mops, brooms, clothing, shoes, tools, gloves, masks, etc. It is suspected that a contaminated glove caused the underground explosion at the WIPP underground storage facility in NM. Rather, it is the long term effects of low dose radioactivity causing genetic mutations.

            The Hanford WA site contains 53M gallons of High Level Waste (most dangerous to human health) in 177 underground tanks on the Columbia River. It will likely cost taxpayers 100B and take 40-50 years to “clean up.”

          • bachcole

            Yeah, but you used 80,000 tons, in italics yet, as a way to emotionalize what you had to say and get us all to share your hysteria, sort of like AGW folks use their factoids to spread their hysteria. Hysterians love company. I just tried to give it a little perspective, positive or negative. (:->)

    • Heath

      I agree. As far as the nuclear waste problem, I believe the GeNie reactor (co-developed with SPAWAR) can use existing waste as fuel. By the way, what has been happening with Global Energy Corporation lately?

      • clovis ray

        Thanks for the info, and i think you are right, as for global corps. i don’t know, you have any info , we would love to see them making a move , i feel they will soon, be moving, either to get on board the E-CAT TRAIN or bankrupt.

  • Fortyniner

    Unless of course you and everyone else are just figments of My imagination. The ultimate narcissistic thought.

    • GreenWin

      I prefer to think of you and Roger as Fig Newtons of my imagination. That is, an illusion created by the impact of fruit falling upon one’s head. Okay… I’m going to have lunch now, and perhaps a wee dram.

  • GordonDocherty

    For anyone interested, here’s a thought exercise in picture form – hopefully it may spark a few more ideas into life :-

    • Fortyniner

      Did you mean to post a link, Gordon?

    • US_Citizen71

      :-)-~

      • GreenWin

        * : -*

        • Fortyniner

          😕

  • GordonDocherty

    For anyone interested, here’s a thought exercise in picture form – hopefully it may spark a few more ideas into life :-

    • Did you mean to post a link, Gordon?

    • US_Citizen71

      :-)-~

  • Fibber McGourlick

    “Yes, we have a pretty precise idea, but I have to remind you that the results of the tests could be positive or negative.” — Rossi

    I can’t believe that Rossi is still in the dark about the outcome of the definitive round of E-Cat tests–that he’s still sitting back patiently awaiting the outcome of these decisive tests while the boys take months to write up their reports. He must know the results, I think, so it’s worrisome that he keeps repeating the possibility that the results might be negative. After years of following this saga, should we at this late juncture really take his often repeated “positive or negative” pronouncement seriously?

    • Ophelia Rump

      We will miss your presence now that you are quitting the watch.

      • Fibber McGourlick

        Who said I was quiting anything? I was just asking a question to see what the rest of the mob thinks about the “positive or negative” mantra. It’s called sharing your thoughts and It drew out a couple of reasonable answers.

        • Heath

          During last year’s test, many accusations were made that Rossi was too close to the testing. We have heard many statements from Rossi and others that this test was designed partially to leave no doubt to its validity and independence and to shore up all of the other issues that other scientists, bloggers, etc. expressed once the report was out. Positive or negative as a phrase is meant to reiterate his distance and it does not imply at all that the effect may be real or not, but that this version of the device lives up to the commercial product expectations of 6 month continuous startup, operation and shutdown to not only validate product readiness, but to gather more detailed information for the US Patent Office and potential investors. This test really is trying to killing many birds with one stone I feel.

        • Ophelia Rump

          I had the impression that you had given up hope.

          “After years of following this saga, should we at this late juncture really take his often repeated “positive or negative” pronouncement seriously?”

          This sounded disillusioned. Apparently I read a little too much emotion into it. Well anyway it is nice that you are not giving up, and going away.

    • Billy Jackson

      he may not have the authority to announce anything before IH does.. as such he has to stick with his original stance or face a possible breach of contract. I think he’s seen it or discussed it, we have no idea what IH is going to do with the report from a media/announcement standpoint, due to that lack of info.. i find it hard to blame Rossi.

      • bachcole

        I think that it is much more likely that Rossi, Darden, Vaughn, et. al. sat around like they usually do in a strategy session and decided collectively what the limits of Rossi’s communications would be. I can’t imagine or believe that Darden and Vaughn would pull rank on the most important inventor in the history of the world. And Darden and Vaughn know this; how could they not have enormous respect for him.

        • Billy Jackson

          Hmm the few facts we do know is that Rossi sold the Intellectual Property to IH. As such, this is less like a partnership and more along the lines of Employee/Employer relationships.. Rossi works for IH now.

          I am positive that you are correct in that they respect Rossi and so far have him “in the loop” on everything with the e-cat.. for all we know Rossi is still the head of the Research for IH as he stated some time back.

          Yet what we are unaware of is the internal workings that they have agreed to as that is not public.. until then either of our scenarios is just as viable as the other.. its best guess, Ill even concede that your more than likely closer to the truth than i am.

          Time will tell us both and the upcoming report and how its handle with give us both a bigger clue on how things are going to be in the future with Rossi and IH.

          • IH may not be the top of the food chain of course, but rather a construct put together to control investment research funding from external sources, and to act as the interface with larger corporates such as GE or Siemens. The latter may or may not be directly sponsoring development, but either way, any NDAs could originate from parties that are outside IH.

        • clovis ray

          Hey,Bachcole. you know i once had an invention that i developed , for moving natural gas from both producing oil wells as well as non producing wells my machine could quadruple production on some wells, this was back before the 80’s, anyways i was just wondering what might have been in rossi’s contract with IH, because i know when i sold out to my partner, and before that we were going to sale our co, to another co. that were buying up this kind of devices, i had the option of quality control of my machine, Dr. rossi may have the same. if he should have this kind of control, it can be a very powerful tool, to get things done.

    • Everyone here is sitting in the dark, waiting, and hoping to see a “firefly”, while Solar Hydrogen Trends already has “fireworks” that lights up the night sky.

      I wish Rossi good luck and success. Any effort to push the envelope is a worthy task that deserves our support.

      But let’s not outcast those who have already torn through the envelope, for it is not their fault that they are being pulled by the invisible hand…

      • Omega Z

        Actually, Everyone here should hope multiple players succeed in this endeavor. To start, Each has a different approach of which will be better suited to different needs & functions.

        But more importantly, Without competition, there is no savings. SHT, BLP, E-cat, Etc, The fact I could sell you electricity for 2 or 3 cents a kilowatt is of no concern. If you presently pay 10 cents a kilowatt, I’ll sell mine to you for 9 cents.

        Better yet, with the Governments Cap & Trade scheme, I’ll push the Government to increase fossil taxes where they cost 20 or 30 cents & I’ll increase my prices accordingly. This scenario is far less likely should you have competition.

        Any who payed attention to Randell Mills in the BLP videos should have noticed these 2 issues he brought up.
        Extremely Cheap Energy. Less then 1 cent per kilowatt hour.
        Extremely Profitable. 10, 15, 20 cents per kilowatt hour. Basically whatever you pay now. 40 cents kilowatt hour in some places.

        • That’s how it will work. To justify the massive profits, we’ll be told that the cost of replacing gas and nuclear generating capacity is astronomical (forgetting of course that both need continuous maintenance and replacement anyway).

          Paying for the process of conversion in this way will probably be sold as a ‘green crusade to save the planet’ that we should all feel privileged to be a part of, rather than a scam designed to shift the cost of profiting from CF to the consumer.

          This is the real reason that there will never be any domestic CF heaters, generators or cars (at least not for decades), and why any other contenders need to find corporate sponsors if they don’t want to run into all manner of problems. Think mafia.

          • Private Citizen

            How adoption/resistance to LENR might play out makes for fascinating speculation.

            There likely will be a political power struggle between interests who want to employ the technology and those who want to sequester it. Some car companies or other consumer product producers might lobby strongly for a distributed model. Different states and/or countries might try to attract commerce by relaxing prohibitions, possibly busting the centralized monopoly faction. Government will be salivating to tax, regulate and sell privileges. And the voice of the people should not entirely be dismissed. I for one will be shouting from rooftops to the tin-eared politicians every election cycle.

            The price of oil and gas might immediately plummet in the face of obsolescence, slowing adoption of LENR by competition. International upheavals might ensue, as economies and currencies dependent upon petrol react. The effect upon water availability and production costs have dizzying implications as well, as do the implications for military adoption or weaponization.

            May we live in interesting times.

          • Omega Z

            I find the Randell Mills Proposed Business model very disturbing. It’s his behavior that justifies my thinking of the more players the better. Competition is a necessity. I have to say that I see some brilliance in some of his theories & I hope he is just taking this position to appease TPTB at this time, Only to provide cheap energy to the masses at the 1st opportunity. I fear he may be infected with the “Excess Greed Virus”. He sometimes shows arrogance & may have dreams of grandeur of being the Worlds 1st Trillionaire. Note: I believe cheap energy for the people is Rossi’s intent, However, that may no longer be up to him.

            As to Politicians, If they are(keyword here) “Intelligent”, They should see that this technology will generate economic growth. A double or tripling of World GDP over time. So even tho tax revenues will decline in some sectors, Overall Tax Revenues should increase by double or triple. And I consider this a 2’fer. Less people needing assistance(a Savings) & more revenue.
            This means less people dependent on the Government. Politicians would likely not care for the loss of power over the people.

            The Transition period. Even with everyone on board for this technology, It will take decades. It’s that Monumental a task.
            Without- Allowing for growth, new uses created by cheap energy, converting from gas to electric transportation, or desalinizing facilities nor even allowing for heating needs or processes, IH/Rossi would have to manufacture somewhere around 150,000 1Mw Hot-cat containers when allowing for heat to electric conversion.

            Approximately 15 Million 10Kw reactors plus mouse. Plus the extras-Boilers, Turbines, Generators. By Eliminating the grid for individual systems & including all possible uses, likely you could quadruple+ this number. This would occupy 2 IH/Factories manufacturing 1 Million 10Kw Reactors each per year indefinitely, as by the time your done, It’s time to start replacing due to life cycle end of which I allow about 35 years.
            I’ve withheld the Kicker- This only involves the State of California. Or the Equivalent of Great Britain. 🙂

            If you had approximately 2,000 E-cat factories, Each producing 1 Million 10Kw reactors per year, You may transition the World in about 20/25 years. Maybe? If all the other resources & manufacturing facilities(Extras) are available. Many times I find myself doubting the numbers & redo them. Again & again. Originally because I thought them to high. Now because I feel they may be to conservative.

          • Omega Z

            When finishing the last post, I heard this on the news.
            Germany has made great headway on Wind & Solar.

            They still need the grid structure to move that energy where needed… And Prices are sky rocketing for both public/private sector. Some estimate that by (? here as to the year 2040 or 40 years) Germany’s energy costs could make up 50% of GDP…
            The people in charge are Idiots. Do they not comprehend economic melt down And chaos long before this time frame.

            So far, I’ve heard these people claim due to this reason or that, That Housing will take 50% of my income, as will health care-50%, Food costs-50%, Energy cost-50%, Minimum income tax-50% Etc, Etc…

            Where’s those dang robots. I need 3 or 4 to go to work for me & bring me their paychecks just so I can keep some of my own.
            Doubt everyone will understand this but-
            This reminds me of an old sitcom “The Dukes of Hazard”
            Where Boss Hogg tells Roscoe P. Coltrane-
            Your share will be 50% of 50% of 50% of 50%.
            e-doggie’s yuk yuk yuk…

          • I suppose it all depends on the business models selected by IH and their backers, and on how large the hidden grouping behind them is, or will become. If they intend to keep ‘core’ manufacture in house, as opposed to licensing, then my guess is that production will follow a geometric path, with profits from initial production being ploughed into the building or acquisition and conversion or more factories, and so on, rapidly spreading around the world. Cold fusion reactor production will quickly become the largest single manufacturing activity on the planet.

            Actually, for automated plants, a million units per year is small beer, especially if the item produced can be fully assembled by machines. Ten or twenty million a year is easily attainable – look at arms manufacture for instance, which is easily able to produce munitions of various types in the tens of millions per factory per year (many types of which may be more complex than an e-cat).

            And of course, if a giant such as GE or Siemens is in there waiting for the starting gun, things could get off the ground very quickly. However, as you say, the task is enormous – at least comparable to the introduction and growth of car production or of home computers, and I think that your estimate of a generation for relatively full introduction of just basic generating equipment may be about right. Who knows what else may ‘spin off’ once R&D becomes an international activity. I hope I live long enough to see some of the changes the new science will bring to the world.

    • Andy Kumar

      Fibber,
      As the Padre of the new age of plentiful energy SOON to be ushered in, Rossi is just teasing us LENR kids. But he could be mocking us too. My personal opinion is that the results have always been suspect.

    • bachcole

      No. The “positive or negative” is a mantra invented by the bean counters or lawyers. He already knows that it works or else he would no longer be working for I.H. and would probably be in court defending his sorry ass. I think that the “positive or negative” is his way of showing skeptics (not skeptopaths, since they are hopeless) that he is not in the midst of the testing knowing exactly what is going on. Also, “positive or negative” may have a standard that is determined by being able to impress investors and manufacturers and other people who don’t give a fig about nuclear physics but do care about making money.

    • US_Citizen71

      A NDA would explain his use of the positive or negative mantra. He has been briefed on what he can or can’t say and when he can say it in regards to the test, when questions wander into that area he repeats his mantra.

    • Omega Z

      It’s possible there could be certain negative aspects to the technology even tho it works. Also he is under NDA.

      However, take note that regardless whether the report is positive or negative, IH/Rossi are going to continue manufacture & sell E-cats. How likely is that if the E-cat doesn’t work.

    • Ted-X

      The uncertainty “(+/-)” is for the eagle circling high in the sky and not certain if the cat is alive or dead. Predatory birds do not eat dead meat.

  • BroKeeper

    So … you took the red pill.

  • georgehants

    bachcole, you and I are as expert in quantum physics as anybody, as very little is known, do not be fooled by the Math.
    If you wish to learn Chinese history you do not need to learn Chinese.
    What science knows about the Quantum reality could be written on the back of a postage stamp.

    It is just a Mystery that reductionist science try’s as hard as it can like with Cold Fusion to hide.
    It just says the World is not as you think it is and that anything is possible.

    That’s as gentle as I can Be 🙂

  • Ophelia Rump

    We will miss your presence now that you are quitting the watch.

  • Billy Jackson

    I agree, only in recent years have we had the ability to see and manipulate at the near atomic layer. going a step further and actually start controlling transmutations of specific materials is going to be a huge leap forward for Material Sciences. With Energy, Material, Medical and Computer Electronics all facing potential vast leaps in the next few years we are on the verge of potentially seeing the start of the so called age of abundance.

    • bachcole

      There will be problems in the age of abundance. I guarantee it. We are already in an age of abundance for hundreds of millions of people in North America, Europe, Japan, a few in India, Russia, China, etc. These people are NOT all incredibly happy. Some are drug addicts, serial murderers, lonely, workaholics, rapists, video game addicts, mentally ill, obese, other physically ill, etc. etc. etc.

      • Billy Jackson

        Hmm i see your thought line but i am unsure if i agree with it in its entirety. There will always be a subset of people that suffer under any system that we devise. quite simply their is no perfect system. Most of the issues you described are Social Issues or Psychological issues. While some possibly may be solvable in the future, Obese, Mentally Ill, Physically Ill, Drug Addicts.. these are medical and possibly curable.. obviously not in the near future but hopefully down the road we will begin to conquer even things today we see as impossible.

        Hopefully as we conquer the physical issues of our limited resources it will slowly begin to change our social issues.

  • Andy Kumar

    If it were Hitler, Gandhi would have disappeared in the dark of the night. George, you can be proud to be a Brit. I say that as an Indian.

  • bachcole

    No. The “positive or negative” is a mantra invented by the bean counters or lawyers. He already knows that it works or else he would no longer be working for I.H. and would probably be in court defending his sorry ass. I think that the “positive or negative” is his way of showing skeptics (not skeptopaths, since they are hopeless) that he is not in the midst of the testing knowing exactly what is going on. Also, “positive or negative” may have a standard that is determined by being able to impress investors and manufacturers and other people who don’t give a fig about nuclear physics but do care about making money.

  • BroKeeper

    Ah yes, a very spiritual man who lives his faith very well. I actually believe a lot of what he proclaimed including, although I’m Christian, in a form of reincarnation as taught about John (the Baptist). Unfortunately I still
    have to take pills of differing colors. 🙂

  • Ophelia Rump

    Gandhi as mass murderer of his own followers. What a concept.

    How about Mother Theresa incubating diseases in the bodies of the poor? Biological warfare promoted by the Vatican or the genocidal maniac acting independently?

    • Alan DeAngelis

      Sounds like a globalist brain storming session.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PIz1Mm6ur8

      • BroKeeper

        Disciple is part of the word discipline which I have recently lost with my wife’s cooking. This said I must take Levothyroxine for a severely hypothyroid.

  • GreenWin

    Huh?? You honestly think these minor demi-gods live in heaven? Or have some proprietary claim to Fire? Or a right to withhold it from benefiting mankind?

  • Heath

    During last year’s test, many accusations were made that Rossi was too close to the testing. We have heard many statements from Rossi and others that this test was designed partially to leave no doubt to its validity and independence and to shore up all of the other issues that other scientists, bloggers, etc. expressed once the report was out. Positive or negative as a phrase is meant to reiterate his distance and it does not imply at all that the effect may be real or not, but that this version of the device lives up to the commercial product expectations of 6 month continuous startup, operation and shutdown to not only validate product readiness, but to gather more detailed information for the US Patent Office and potential investors. This test really is trying to killing many birds with one stone I feel.

  • Ophelia Rump

    I had the impression that you had given up hope.

    “After years of following this saga, should we at this late juncture really take his often repeated “positive or negative” pronouncement seriously?”

    This sounded disillusioned.

  • Omega Z

    Actually, Everyone here should hope multiple players succeed in this endeavor. To start, Each has a different approach of which will be better suited to different needs & functions.

    But more importantly, Without competition, there is no savings. SHT, BLP, E-cat, Etc, The fact I could sell you electricity for 2 or 3 cents a kilowatt is of no concern. If you presently pay 10 cents a kilowatt, I’ll sell mine to you for 9 cents.

    Better yet, with the Governments Cap & Trade scheme, I’ll push the Government to increase fossil taxes where they cost 20 or 30 cents & I’ll increase my prices accordingly. This scenario is far less likely should you have competition.

    Any who payed attention to Randell Mills in the BLP videos should have noticed these 2 issues he brought up.
    Extremely Cheap Energy. Less then 1 cent per kilowatt hour.
    Extremely Profitable. 10, 15, 20 cents per kilowatt hour. Basically whatever you pay now. 40 cents kilowatt hour in some places.

    • Fortyniner

      That’s how it will work. To justify the profits, we’ll be told that the cost of replacing gas and nuclear generating capacity is astronomical (forgetting of course that both need continuous maintenance and replacement anyway).

      The process of conversion may even be sold as a ‘green crusade’ that we should all feel privileged to be a part of, rather than a scam designed to shift the cost of profiting from CF to the consumer.

      This is the real reason that there will never be any domestic CF heaters, generators or cars (at least not for decades), and why any other contenders need to find corporate sponsors if they don’t want to run into all manner of problems. Think mafia.

      • Private Citizen

        How adoption/resistance to LENR might play out makes for fascinating speculation.

        There likely will be a political power struggle between interests who want to employ the technology and those who want to sequester it. Some car companies or other consumer product producers might lobby strongly for a distributed model. Different states and/or countries might try to attract commerce by relaxing prohibitions, possibly busting the centralized monopoly. And the voice of the people should not entirely be dismissed. I for one will be shouting from rooftops to the tin-eared politicians every election cycle.

        The price of oil and gas might immediately plummet in the face of obsolescence, slowing adoption of LENR by competition. International upheavals might ensue, as economies and currencies dependent upon petrol react. The effect upon water availability and production costs have dizzying implications as well, as do the implications for military adoption or weaponization.

        May we live in interesting times.

      • Omega Z

        I find the Randell Mills Proposed Business model very disturbing. It’s his behavior that justifies my thinking of the more players the better. Competition is a necessity. I have to say that I see some brilliance in some of his theories & I hope he is just taking this position to appease TPTB at this time, Only to provide cheap energy to the masses at the 1st opportunity. I fear he may be infected with the “Excess Greed Virus”. He sometimes shows arrogance & may have dreams of grandeur of being the Worlds 1st Trillionaire. Note: I believe cheap energy for the people is Rossi’s intent, However, that may no longer be up to him.

        As to Politicians, If they are(keyword here) “Intelligent”, They should see that this technology will generate economic growth. A double or tripling of World GDP over time. So even tho tax revenues will decline in some sectors, Overall Tax Revenues should increase by double or triple. And I consider this a 2’fer. Less people needing assistance(a Savings) & more revenue.
        This means less people dependent on the Government. Politicians would likely not care for the loss of power over the people.

        The Transition period. Even with everyone on board for this technology, It will take decades. It’s that Monumental a task.
        Without- Allowing for growth, new uses created by cheap energy, converting from gas to electric transportation, or desalinizing facilities nor even allowing for heating needs or processes, IH/Rossi would have to manufacture somewhere around 150,000 1Mw Hot-cat containers when allowing for heat to electric conversion.

        Approximately 15 Million 10Kw reactors plus mouse. Plus the extras-Boilers, Turbines, Generators. By Eliminating the grid for individual systems & including all possible uses, likely you could quadruple+ this number. This would occupy 2 IH/Factories manufacturing 1 Million 10Kw Reactors each per year indefinitely, as by the time your done, It’s time to start replacing due to life cycle end of which I allow about 35 years.
        I’ve withheld the Kicker- This only involves the State of California. Or the Equivalent of Great Britain. 🙂

        If you had approximately 2,000 E-cat factories, Each producing 1 Million 10Kw reactors per year, You may transition the World in about 20/25 years. Maybe? If all the other resources & manufacturing facilities(Extras) are available. Many times I find myself doubting the numbers & redo them. Again & again. Originally because I thought them to high. Now because I feel they may be to conservative.

        • Omega Z

          When finishing the last post, I heard this on the news.
          Germany has made great headway on Wind & Solar.

          They still need the grid structure to move that energy where needed… And Prices are sky rocketing for both public/private sector. Some estimate that by (? here as to the year 2040 or 40 years) Germany’s energy costs could make up 50% of GDP…
          The people in charge are Idiots. Do they not comprehend economic melt down And chaos long before this time frame.

          So far, I’ve heard these people claim due to this reason or that, That Housing will take 50% of my income, as will health care-50%, Food costs-50%, Energy cost-50%, Minimum income tax-50% Etc, Etc…

          Where’s those dang robots. I need 3 or 4 to go to work for me & bring me their paychecks just so I can keep some of my own.
          Doubt everyone will understand this but-
          This reminds me of an old sitcom “The Dukes of Hazard”
          Where Boss Hogg tells Roscoe P. Coltrane-
          Your share will be 50% of 50% of 50% of 50%.
          e-doggie’s yuk yuk yuk…

        • Fortyniner

          I suppose it all depends on the business models selected by IH and their backers, and on how large the hidden grouping behind them is, or will become. If they intend to keep ‘core’ manufacture in house, as opposed to licensing, then my guess is that production will follow a geometric path, with profits from initial production being ploughed into the building or acquisition and conversion or more factories, and so on, rapidly spreading around the world. Cold fusion reactor production will quickly become the largest single manufacturing activity on the planet.

          Actually, for automated plants, a million units per year is small beer, especially if the item produced can be fully assembled by machines. Ten or twenty million a year is easily attainable – look at arms manufacture for instance, which is easily able to produce munitions of various types in the tens of millions per factory per year (many types of which may be more complex than an e-cat).

          And of course, if a giant such as GE or Siemens is in there waiting for the starting gun, things could get off the ground very quickly. However, as you say, the task is enormous – at least comparable to the introduction and growth of car production or of home computers, and I think that your estimate of a generation for relatively full introduction of just basic generating equipment may be about right. Who knows what else may ‘spin off’ once R&D becomes an international activity. I hope I live long enough to see some of the changes the new science will bring to the world.

  • Omega Z

    “deja vu”
    The experience we have on Reboot right after the Blue Screen of Death.

  • Jonnyb

    Well September is nearly upon us. Hopefully we will see the article in Nature Chemistry next month, or something a well respected.

  • Jonnyb

    Well September is nearly upon us. Hopefully we will see the article in Nature Chemistry next month, or something as well respected.

  • GreenWin

    It is not the volume Roger. Nuclear waste includes everything used inside hot areas of a reactor e.g. mops, brooms, clothing, shoes, tools, gloves, masks, etc. It is suspected that a contaminated glove caused the underground explosion at the WIPP underground storage facility in NM. Rather, it is the long term effects of low dose radioactivity causing genetic mutations.

    The Hanford WA site contains 53M gallons of High Level Waste (most dangerous to human health) in 177 underground tanks on the Columbia River. It will likely cost taxpayers 100B and take 40-50 years to “clean up.”

  • georgehants

    Error

  • georgehants

    Error