Brillouin’s Robert Godes on the E-Cat Report

Here’s an interesting comment from Robert Godes, the inventor of the Brillouin LENR reactor. This was posted by Patrik Wiksten here at the LENR-Forum here

“The before and after test results are consistent with the Brillouin Hypothesis. It is unfortunate that there equipment only reports the stable isotopes of Ni and they probably cut it off from Cu detection or figured the Cu65 without any Cu63 was an erroneous reading. It is almost a certainty that 59Ni with a half-life of 76000 years and 63Ni with ~100 year half-life. It is also almost a certainty that the 64Ni that was present at 0.9% turned into 65Ni which has a 2.5Hr half-life and becomes 65Cu before the measurement took place.

“There is no other reasonable explanation for what happened to the 64Ni which went missing on page 29. The Li seems to have disappeared during the test as well but this is not surprising as the boiling point of Li is 1342 °C and it probably evaporated out of the system fairly quickly. I would have preferred that they used a more direct measurement technique. I would have placed the reactor inside of a tube in a pressure vessel with a release valve set for 20 bar and measured the amount of water vaporized. The pressure valve tells you what the temperature of the escaping water vapor was. All this being said, this was a very convincing test proving that the reaction is both real and nuclear in nature. Further it also proves that there is no penetrating radiation from this type of reaction.”

I find it interesting that Robert Godes seems to be quite credulous of the transmutation aspects of the report, which he says matches the Brillouin Hypothesis. I don’t know if Brillouin has carried out any similar analysis of element from their own system — it sounds a little unlikely from what Godes says here (talking only of the hypothesis).

Godes, being a competitor of Ross, has said in the past that the Brillouin system is superior (e.g. he has said that Brillouin’s reactor can start and stop at will), but here he is very complimentary of the E-Cat report, and has no problem calling the test results convincing, and proof that the reaction is ‘real and nuclear’.

I suppose that as a rising tide raises all ships, if acceptance of LENR as valid science grows because of this report, it will help Brillouin as well as Industrial Heat.

  • Alan DeAngelis

    Maybe it’s O(18) from the alumina (or iron oxide).

    Ni(58) + O(18) > Ni(60) + O(16) 8.20 MeV

    Ni(60) + O(18) > Ni(62) + O(16) 6.23 MeV

    Ni(61) + O(18) > Ni(62) + O(17) 2.55 MeV

    For Ni(64) to Ni(62) ?

    Maybe

    Fe(54) + Ni(64) > Ni (62) + Fe(56) 4.00 MeV

    I went crazy again about this on the replication thread.

    • Alan DeAngelis

      Forgot one.
      Ni(61) + O(17) > Ni(62) + O(16) 14.78 MeV

      • Sorry – I moved the comment to somewhere it seemed more relevant, and accidentally orphaned Pekka’s reply, which wasn’t visible then. This is what I had posted:

        “Just a thought – the resistance heating coils (which may also be the source of an oscillating EM field) are made of ‘inconel’ (nichrome alloy) – the same stuff that the Celani wire was derived from. Is there any possibility that the wire itself, which may conceivably have been pre-treated in some way, also takes some other part in the operation of the overall system? (i.e., is perhaps the ‘mouse’ – COP=1.1?)”

        • Pekka Janhunen

          The same occurred to me – that maybe the heating wire is the mouse and doped to be active. (That mice have wiry tails is probably just a coincidence.)

          • Pekka Janhunen

            Which might, by the way, explain why “fuel” p(Li7,a)He4 could only explain about 50% of the observed energy output.

        • Update: In view of the anomaly that Curious and others have pointed out, i.e., that the reactor temperature exceeded the melting point of all Inconel alloys, it seems clear that the internal resistances couldn’t have been made of Inconel, so my suggestion is moot.

    • Pekka Janhunen

      Some of these reactions involve the transfer of two neutrons and some involve one neutron. If the elementary process is one-neutron transfer, one can obtain two-neutron transfer by repeating the process, but then the intermediate product should also exist in the ash, which in case of Ni(58) would be the radioactive Ni(59). If the elementary process would be more exotic dineutron transfer, then Ni(61) could only transform to Ni(63), which is again radioactive. So in both cases it’s hard to avoid radioactive outcomes, unless there is some mechanism which “censors” them out.

      That Bianchini measured no radiation above background from the reactor and from the ash is an extremely stringent constraint. One gram of nickel contains about 1e22 Ni atoms. If one in million of them would be Ni(59), for example, the number of Ni(59) atoms would be 1e16. Ni(59) half-life is 76000 years (2.4e12 s), so every second there would be 4000 decays. Ni(59) decays by beta+, that is, positron emission. The positrons are annihilated with electrons which produces a pair of 511 keV gammas for each decay. Such gammas are already quite penetrating and thus easily detected.

      I am surprised that Godes speculates about production of radioactive elements although none were seen. Bianchini used several measurement techniques based on different principles. It is inconceivable that all of them would have malfunctioned.

      • LCD

        Couldn’t have said it better myself

      • LCD

        I’m with you whatever causes the isotope shift without radiation preferentially selects stable isotopes. This is actually self consistent or else it would seem you are back to explaining where the dangerous radiation went.

      • Andreas Moraitis

        What if the rate of the hypothetical 59Ni/7Li (or 59Ni/n) reaction were much higher than the decay rate of 59Ni? One would see much less gammas, I guess.

        • Pekka Janhunen

          What matters is the ratio of 59Ni production rate (from 58Ni) and 59Ni destruction rate (into 60Ni). If that ratio is one to million, then one gets 4000 decays per second in the ash, which is still very large. So the ratio should be one to billion or more. It’s really difficult to conform with the no-radiation outcome if 59Ni is part of the main energetic pathway or main destruction channel of 58Ni (if assumed to be real).

      • Alan DeAngelis

        Oxygen-18 bombardment induced transmutation are known (Yes, I know high energy is used but I thought I’d put it out here anyway). (18O,x)
        http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF02518354

  • Ophelia Rump

    I think it was a generous response. Robert Godes has respect for his competitors, and LENR researchers. I hope they will take his advice in the future. He sounds like he has already covered that ground himself. It also sounds like they are indeed approaching the same technical objective.

    • Omega Z

      Godes offered to cooperate with Rossi at one time exchanging information. I think Godes at that time thought “each” had keys to certain knowledge that would have been beneficial to both.

      I have wondered how that offer would have been received by Rossi had it not been for his experience with DGT.
      Once burnt twice shy.

      • It may be best that they develop their reactors independently. LENR is definitely in need of some open competition.

    • It is good to confirm that there is at least one other party ‘out there’ on much the same track as IH. Godes’ comment seems to confirm that he is on familiar territory, and it is nice to see the professional courtesy he extends to Rossi, despite the fact they may be mutually engaged in commercial warfare this time next year. I look forward to hearing from Brillouin in due course.

  • Robert Godes and Brian Josephson, good to hear from the heavyweights. Reminds me of “Revenge of the Jedi”. May the weak force be with them.

  • Ecat

    Paul Stout destroyed “cheese” video theory on ecatnews.com and now he’s crushing skeptics on reality of Ecat.

    • Fortyniner

      I’ve just taken a look, and agree. His patient, logical and fact-based posts contrast rather sharply with the mixture of lies, half truth, innuendo and acid ad hominem (admittedly quite witty in places) of the pathological skeptics.

  • Ecat

    Paul Stout destroyed “cheese” video theory on ecatnews.com and now he’s crushing skeptics on reality of Ecat.

    • I’ve just taken a look, and agree. His patient, logical and fact-based posts contrast rather sharply with the mixture of lies, half truth, innuendo and acid ad hominem (admittedly quite witty in places) of the pathological skeptics.

  • Omega Z

    The link provided does not work for me. However I can get there.

  • Omega Z

    The link provided does not work for me. However I can get there.

  • Andreas Moraitis

    What a contrast to the behaviour of another well known competitor of Rossi. One must like these people at Brillouin. However, Godes seems to step into the same trap as others did before him. If no copper has been found in the ash, then there must be an error?

  • Andreas Moraitis

    What a contrast to the behaviour of another well known competitor of Rossi. One must like these people at Brillouin. However, Godes seems to step into the same trap as others did before him. If no copper has been found in the ash, then there must be an error?

  • DickeFix

    “All this being said, this was a very convincing test proving that the reaction is both real and nuclear in nature”

    I beg to disagree. The large excess power is indeed difficult to explain without assuming nuclear reactions. However, I think that even Rossi agrees that the isotope results indicate that something fishy is going on. Rossi has claimed repeatadly both in his papent applications and in his blog that Ni62 is an important part of the _fuel_ and it is transformed to Cu63. In Dec. 6 2011 Rossi wrote:

    “As I have explained many times, we use Ni enriched of 62 and 64
    Ni, which are the sole to react, and 63 and 65 Cu are stable. Our
    process has been developed upon a theory that became stronger in time,
    based on the results of the thousands of our tests we made with our
    apparatuses. At this point we have a solid theory which is leading our
    R&D, making progress by the day. The problem is that the theory
    leads directly to the industrial confidential IP and since we have not a
    granted patent we deem opportune not to disclose the theory.”

    Now no enriched Ni62 is found in the fuel whereas virtually pure Ni-62 is found in the ash with no trace of Cu63! There are so many problems with the isotope results that the only realistic conclusion, even if LENR is present, is that either the analyzed ash or the analyzed fuel was not a representative sample. The reason for this can be either deliberate fraud, a mistake or just coincidence when sampling. Regardless of cause, the isotope results are a catastrophy for the credibility of the entire experiment that otherwise was a rather convincing demonstration of excess heat. I think Robert Godes aswell as the authors behind the report and even Andrea Rossi himself understand that despite their positive official conclusions,.

    • Da Phys

      I agree that this is the weakest point of the report: how can we trust such a system when its creator claimed from the very beginning that the fuel is made of enriched Ni62 with less in the ash, when exactly the opposite was found?
      That said, Rossi himself admitted that the Ni isotope distrubution was unexpected. In some sense, that’s good for the “business crebility”, less for the “scientific credibility”…

    • DF, the amount of energy, if not nuclear is far beyond chemical. I have to confess how it works means little to me compared to the practical implications.

  • I disagree with Godes on Ni-65 and Cu-65.

    What the reported data shows is that almost EV.ER.Y.THING turns into Ni-62.

    That includes all the other Ni isotopes, plus all the Iron and Aluminum from the other fuel particles. The E-Cat reactor is a device which enables metals to migrate to the nucleus with the highest binding energies (Ni-62) — that is the deepest energy well. And it does so circumventing the normal nuclear event byproducts.

    It grows giant Ni-62 grains from Ni, Fe and Al feed stock. Something is happening at the surfaces of those growing grains that permits nuclei to rearrange and seek those deepest energy wells. Quantum soup at the boundary layer.

    The story the data tells is truly remarkable.
    http://lenrftw.net/assessing_ecat_report.html#fuel-analysis

  • I disagree with Godes on Ni-65 and Cu-65.

    What the reported data shows is that almost EV.ER.Y.THING turns into Ni-62.

    That includes all the other Ni isotopes, plus all the Iron and Aluminum from the other fuel particles. The E-Cat reactor is a device which enables metals to migrate to the nucleus with the highest binding energies (Ni-62) — that is the deepest energy well. And it does so circumventing the normal nuclear event byproducts.

    It grows giant Ni-62 grains from Ni, Fe and Al feed stock. Something is happening at the surfaces of those growing grains that permits nuclei to rearrange and seek those deepest energy wells. Quantum soup at the boundary layer.

    The story the data tells is truly remarkable.
    http://lenrftw.net/assessing_ecat_report.html#fuel-analysis

  • Gerrit

    Rossi claims to make transmutations occur in his device and Godes claims to make similar transmutations occur in his device.

    Mitsubishi Heavy Industries report transmutations in their experiment and Toyota Central Research reports a successful replication of that experiment.

    Still the main response from most scientists seems to be: “This can’t be happening, therefore there is no need to further investigate”.

  • Bob Greenyer

    We put forward a theory for why there is no gamma seen

    https://www.facebook.com/MartinFleischmannMemorialProject

    Based off our work november 2013 here:

    http://www.quantumheat.org/index.php/en/experiements/dormant-experiments/celani-replication/347-gamma

    Work that discussed the fact that Deuterium causes gamma release, pinching the mix creates nuclear events, Deuterium not needed for excess heat and the historical use of inconel in high temperature reactors by Mizuno.

    • Adam Lepczak

      Bob,
      If you’re looking for extra “brain power” – perhaps try to approach a fellow over at ecatnews.com named “Paul Stout”. He might be a great addition to the replication team.

      • Bob Greenyer

        Adam, thanks for the tip off. We will likely be running a collaborate live planning document and if you could encourage him to join the authoring team, that would be awesome – that way everyones interaction and edits are real-time timestamped and the crowd can watch the document whilst it is evolving. More heads on this the better.

        • Mr. Moho

          I would suggest asking for help on Vortex-l directly and on CMNS if you have access to it.

  • Bob Greenyer

    We put forward a theory for why there is no gamma seen

    https://www.facebook.com/MartinFleischmannMemorialProject

    Based off our work november 2013 here:

    http://www.quantumheat.org/index.php/en/experiements/dormant-experiments/celani-replication/347-gamma

    Work that discussed the fact that Deuterium causes gamma release, pinching the mix creates nuclear events, Deuterium not needed for excess heat and the historical use of inconel in high temperature reactors by Mizuno.

    • Adam Lepczak

      Bob,
      If you’re looking for extra “brain power” – perhaps try to approach a fellow over at ecatnews.com named “Paul Stout”. He might be a great addition to the replication team.

      • Bob Greenyer

        Adam, thanks for the tip off. We will likely be running a collaborate live planning document and if you could encourage him to join the authoring team, that would be awesome – that way everyones interaction and edits are real-time timestamped and the crowd can watch the document whilst it is evolving. More heads on this the better.

  • Da Phys

    I agree that this is the weakest point of the report: how can we trust such a system when its creator claimed from the very beginning that the fuel is made of enriched Ni62 with less in the ash, when exactly the opposite was found?
    That said, Rossi himself admitted that the Ni isotope distrubution was unexpected. In some sense, that’s good for the “business crebility”, less for the “scientific credibility”…

  • Energy analysis spreadsheet.
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JJjNVq_2euIwwmfOlVb4MK_UigkcoriisW5VsB7hu5c/edit?usp=sharing

    The energy generated, based on my calculations, pretty closely matches what was reported.

    The caveat is that we don’t know exactly the level of iron content in the fuel and the calculations are sensitive to that amount. If one assumes that all the Nickel-62 nucleons come from other nickel isotopes, iron, aluminum and lithium and set the level of iron in the fuel to make that true, then the calculated energy works out to about 37% more than the reported energy.

    Another consideration is that the iron in the calculations, while it will be largely iron based on the spectroscopy, is actually a proxy for all the other trace elements too that appear to be part of the reactions.

    • Billy Jackson

      Help me understand something so i am not assuming the wrong thing.

      its the ASH that was analyzed and determined to contain the largest portion of Nickel-62. This is the burnt/spent part of the fuel which only represents a very small portion of the total fuel left at the end? (in other words their was plenty of non-ash unspent fuel left?)

      To many statements have been made about all the fuel turning to Nickel-62 and that’s not true.. perhaps the majority of the ash has been. but not all of the fuel.

      Last but not least. in the conversion/transmutation phase which i assume we get our energy from perhaps some of the elements are transmutated to the Nickel-62 but the rest is converted to gas or possibly escaped upon opening of the fuel container if it was no longer a solid? I dont remember many details about them trying to contain the fuel in that state during sawing it open with a diamond saw…(could this explain some of the missing elements due to melting points?)

      am i barking up the wrong tree?

      • They analyzed 2.13 mg of fuel (assumed to be homogeneous) and 2.13 mg of ash randomly chosen (unknown whether homogeneous or not). While one cannot say that the entire gram of fuel was burned it’s pretty safe to say that this particular portion of it was completely burned or almost so because it is so different. I wish we had analysis of the whole gram too, but we can extrapolate from the 2.13 mg samples.

        Gas does not appear to play a big part in what’s going on (and I’m sure they waited until the reactor was close to room temperature before opening). The hydrogen may be the missing piece to understand what exactly happens. The analyses in Appendices 3 and 4 not only don’t talk about hydrogen they hand wave on the trace metal elements and unfortunately the iron too, which looks like a big part of the puzzle.

        We got a lot of info but we don’t have a complete accounting of every single element before and after. We got some really good clues though.

  • I think this Finnish Patent has the answers buried within it. Check it out: Inventors: Pekka Soininen Applicant: Etiam Oy

    https://www.google.com/patents/WO2013076378A2?cl=en&dq=WO2013076378&hl=en&sa=X&ei=GPw7VLTILs7uoASCmIGICw&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAA

  • I think this Finnish Patent has the answers buried within it. Check it out: Inventors: Pekka Soininen Applicant: Etiam Oy

    It would be great if someone could set up an interview with them about the E-cat results.

    https://www.google.com/patents/WO2013076378A2?cl=en&dq=WO2013076378&hl=en&sa=X&ei=GPw7VLTILs7uoASCmIGICw&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAA

  • Christopher Calder

    For those who have not seen it, Brillouin has an interesting animated video on YouTube that shows how they believe the Rossi reactor and their own reactor works on the atomic level.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HT2Hr5jPIY

  • For those who have not seen it, Brillouin has an interesting animated video on YouTube that shows how they believe the Rossi reactor and their own reactor works on the atomic level.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HT2Hr5jPIY

  • Here is the Dark Horse in the LENR Race: http://etiam.fi/

  • LCD

    Well I’m not sure what to make of his comments but on page 51 there is clearly Cu63 in the fuel

    • I had not really looked at appendix 3. I am glad to see that Cu63 does not appear to have changed much between start and finish seen on page 52. As I had predicted, as noted above, Cu65 is actually higher than Cu63 in the ash after the experiment. (Page52) The source of this new Cu65 is beta- decay of Ni65 which comes from capture of ultra cold neutrons by lighter isotopes of Ni. Thanks LCD for point out the Cu on page 51

  • Mcdownunder

    Godes and Mckubre fired cheap shots at Rossi in the past.
    Fully tasteless