Project Fedora Thread [UPDATE #4: MFMP Refuse to Sign NDA with NicHEnergy]

There have been some interesting posts on the Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project’s Facebook page today describing their initial meeting as part of Project Fedora — working with Francesco Piantelli. They have started out in Milan where they met with officials from Nichenergy, the company created to commercialize Piantelli’s LENR technology.

UPDATE #4 (January 25, 2015)

Many of us have been wondering what has been going on with the MFMP and their Project Fedora, and now there’s a post on the quantumheat.org website by Bob Greenyer that gives a report of the status of their work with NicHenergy in Italy. He writes:

After a week of meetings and direct knowledge transfer, in which we neither had the time or energy to report on our learning, we were presented with an NDA to sign.

We refused to sign it without even reading it, it is not who we are, only bad things can come of signing an NDA for an organisation such as ours. Compounding that, is the fact that we are volunteers, why would we leave ourselves open to potentially ruinous legal repercussions when we have nothing to gain!

It was a generic NDA that would have been appropriate for an investor or employee, neither of which we are of course. The MFMP is only interested in finding the truth and adding to, rather than taking value from participants that have real technology that should properly be investigated.

The NDA would have required us to cease all other activities in related research and gagged us on the knowledge we knew and was to learn from NicHEnergy. It was not deliberately written that way, but all the same, that would have been the implications. Obviously it was an impossible ask, especially as we are already funded and committed to doing other experiments.

We then spent 4 full days, writing a cooperation agreement which respected both parties and which was well received by NicHEnergy.

We are considering doing a live-streamed in-principal discussion to debate the way forward, both NicHEnergy and the MFMP wish to find a way to cooperate that meets both of our respective goals. We are in a unique position and one that will not likely be repeated by any other kind of partner. If it is possible, we wish to demonstrate incontrovertibl y that Piantelli is the father of the Nickel Hydrogen system.

UPDATE #3 (January 13, 2015)

Here’s an update on the MFMP Facebook page regarding what has been going in Tuscany with Francesco Piantelli:

“It has been an educational first few days here with Piantelli and NicHEnergy.

“It is clear to all involved that it is in everybody’s best interest for the great work Piantelli has done here to be replicated. For us it is another chance at demonstrating this phenomenon. For NicHEnergy, it is validating their patent claims and increasing their value. It’s a win-win.

“Piantelli has been frustrated many times by replication attempts where the investigator starts from an incomplete understanding, tries it once, gets it wrong, and then claims that it is a failure. When they realised we would be willing to attempt it many times, as we have done with Francesco Celani, if necessary, they were more comfortable to proceed.

“With that in mind, he seems to have taken it upon himself to tutor us in detail about every aspect. With true, inspirational table pounding passion and conviction, he has shared many stories behind the data he has published over the years. We have heard about excess energy, transmutations, and radiation.

“To make this work, he plans to help us specify every detail to meet the many very specific requirements he has identified over his years of trial and error. When we get to actually building and running it, he wants to review each step to make sure it tests tight, bakes out well, and runs according to plan, including all data. We are pleased with that.

“As we are learning, we are beginning to see this as a long process and are estimating the time and costs involved. Without this trip to learn all these details, a replication attempt based just on the published details would be impossible”

UPDATE #2 (January 12, 2015) I contacted Bob Greenyer asking him how things were going with Project Fedora where the team is now in Tuscany meeting with Francesco Piantelli at his lab. I got a brief message in reply: “Really good… intense… hope to message on it later today”

UPDATE #1 (January 9, 2015) Here are some excerpts from the MFMP:

Two hour initial discussion establishes common ground with NicHEnergy and direction for the coming marathon.

After an utterly punishing journey to get here and a complete logistical nightmare organising the key first meeting, we had a very productive afternoon with NicHEnergy.

What was demonstrated more clearly today than anything, is that there is simply NO SUBSTITUTE for face to face discussions, and we are indebted to everyone that made just this one day possible.

We learnt a huge amount about each others organisations and motives, our hopes and fears for the coming days and how best we can learn and work together in a positive way.

Every bit of the experience we have gained since 2012 was important in this meeting, as was the unique community supported way we function. We hope we will have a chance to work in a way that yields evidence, understanding and results that have eluded others who have tried in recent years.

The MFMP says that following the meeting in Milan they will be heading to Tuscany where Dr. Piantelli has his secret laboratory. The have enlisted the services of an Italian filmmaker who will be documenting the activity, and acting as an interpreter, since Piantelli does not speak English.

I am sure we will be hearing (and hopefully seeing via video) about the progress of Project Fedora.

  • Hank Mills

    My only question to them before rushing to get everyone to Minnisota for round the clock building and testing of dog bones: how do you suggest we create a perfect seal to block hydrogen?

    Testing a dog bone with a perfect seal should be the top priority. Rossi didn’t develop the E-Cat by having meetings and talking – he ran test after test.

    • Andrew

      Graphene would be an excellent choice. It’s impermeable, strong and a fantastic conductor of heat.

      • Alain Samoun

        A good article on graphene that can be apply to CF as well:

        “It’s less about a disruptive technology and more about moments when the linkages among a set of technologies reach a point where it’s feasible for them to change lots of practices,” he said. “Steam engines had been around a long time before they became really disruptive. What needed to happen were changes in other parts of the economy, other technologies linking up with the steam engine to make it more efficient and desirable.”

        From: NewYorker

        http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/12/22/material-questionhttp://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/12/22/material-question

    • Ophelia Rump

      Low Permeation Liner for Hydrogen Gas Storage Tanks
      I doubt this could take the heat.
      http://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/pdfs/iiia5_lessing.pdf

      Hydrogen Permeation Resistant Coatings
      More options, and probably a good set of keywords for further search.
      http://sti.srs.gov/fulltext/ms2005155/ms2005155.pdf

      • “It is a further object of this invention to provide a hydrogen permeation resistant barrier which is useful at temperatures up to at least 700° C.” Interesting. Good find Ophelia.

      • Obvious

        Nickel aluminum alloy powder is available (often used as a precursor to Raney nickel), but could make a handy reactor sealant. It can be made into a rather nice hydride also.

  • bachcole

    Just think. Before the Internet, these people would never have known one another.

  • EEStorFanFibb

    MFMP rock. love those guys. if i ever get into a position to sell some ZNN shares (LOL) I’m going to send them some scratch

  • Mr. Moho

    He does not speak English but I think he understands it well.

  • georgehants

    “I shall not commit the fashionable stupidity of regarding everything I cannot explain as a fraud.”
    C.G. Jung.

    • pg

      Jung makes the top 3 all time for the most unreadable publications, but he had undoubtedly some brilliant quotes

      • A hero among dreamers. Most readable “Memories Dreams Reflections”.

  • Jack

    He is quite old. English became the “standard default language” only lately mostly because of the Internet. Before the Internet it would have made much more sense for an italian to study German or French. BTW French is still considered a standard international language here in Europe although many, especially of the new generations who grew up with Internet, don’t know it and might even think it as foolish.

  • I think he’s able to understand english, but has problems to speak it.

    For a detailed discussion on a physical topic it may lead to too much misunderstandings.

  • It’s very interesting to me that nicHenergy has chosen this path with MFMP. To me it says two things loud and clear:
    * they believe they really have something verifiable
    * despite some boasting earlier on, they don’t see themselves able to compete with Industrial Heat directly in the market and have decided instead to try and leverage their IP.

    This leaves Brillouin and perhaps Clean Planet as the only two entities that we know of that could surprise us in 2015 by beating IH to market. Brillouin could make public their deal (and data) with that South Korean mid-cap or Clean Planet could announce it is productizing a 10 kW reactor if their R&D is still on track).

    • Just wanted to mention, Brillouin donated $1000. to MFMP.

      • Yeah that was curious. What do you think it means?

        • Not sure, first impression is they genuinely care about the advancement of CF/LENR over competition and $$$..

        • pg

          It makes sense, mfmp is not trying to replicate their work but the work of a potential competitor, it does not hurt to give it a little help, from both an image and a commercial point of view

        • Sanjeev

          If a practical LENR device is verified, everyone wins. Brillouin will have no shortage of funding and contracts.
          That’s what McKubre said, LENR players need to join forces, if they want to win in investment field. There is no need to convince media or politicians or academics, these people add no value, only investors do. The secrecy is harming LENR and if a working device is openly tested and replicated by many, the barrier to investment and funding will be gone.

          • Alain Samoun

            And should I add licencing barrier.

    • tlp

      We know also Blacklight Power. They could surprise and beat all.

      • Teemu Soilamo

        It would be a surprise, all right.

        • bachcole

          (:->) I would be freaking blown away. I would have to seek the services of an Insight Enhancement Therapist if BLP succeeded.

    • John Littlemist

      Regarding those who could surprise us, I must just remind that there is no reason to ignore Etiam Oy, even though E-Catworld.com does it.

      • bachcole

        When I know what “Etiam Oy” is, then I will be able to say whether I am ignoring it or not. (:->) Just kidding. Obviously if I don’t know what it is, but I recognize the words (which I do), then I must be ignoring it. I think that it is a Finnish group working on LENR. Did I get that right?

        If Rossi is going to take more than a year to have something to talk about, then we will and should look elsewhere for interesting LENR++ news.

  • pg

    Piantelli is a top researcher in a field that has been outcasted by american scientists, I can’t blame him for not feeling the necessity to speak their language, and you might find in a not so distant future that speaking italian in the cold fusion field is a valuable tool.

    • TomR

      How very true!

  • Mr. Moho

    Ryan Hunt of HUGLab Minnesota is posting photo updates in his Facebook page:
    https://www.facebook.com/LordChickenMaster

    • With that many kids how does he have time to experiment? (Sorry for over-posting frank, been a cold day in New England.)

      • mecatfish

        Its going to be an even colder day once the Colts get done with you all.

        • Mecatfish, I don’t watch hockey.

          • mecatfish

            Nice comeback. Touchee

  • Alain Samoun

    So you speak Italian? Swedish? Russian?…

  • Jouni

    Mrs LookMoo, we Finns have obligatory swedish though here are only 5% swedish-speakers in Finland.
    I think that english is today the path to be able to discuss with others around the world?
    Swedes do speak english fluently, so language-barriers do not exist.

    If one wants to maximixe time utilizatition to what is meaningfull, one does need to learn his/hers motherlanguage and english.

  • Alain Samoun

    And you are A top researcher? Bravo!

  • Sanjeev

    That’s a strange statement, does not compute.
    There is no relation between English and being a scientist (“top researcher in your lingo).

    • LookMoo

      To be recognized worldwide you needs to get your research published in the big English “peer-review publications” …mostly English. And by this offer mankind the fruits of your research.

      This website is good example on how important English proficiency is for those who wants to interact with people worldwide..

      • Sanjeev

        You have just listed a big flaw in this old “peer review” system. If a paper is worth reading people will translate it to their own language and publish it where ever they want.

        Systems should not run science, science should run systems.

        • Sanjeev

          Just want to add about this site being in English. Yes its in English, yet the biggest success for Ecat came from a Russian, who barely speaks English.
          Talent finds a way. Lets not encourage totally made up rules like “you need English to be something”, you do not.

          • LookMoo

            Correct.. probably..Russian was first.. but as they don’t speak English we never heard about it. Mr. Rossi on the other hand write all his comments in English so do MFMP.

          • bachcole

            I don’t want to be a meanie head by implying that someone else was a meanie head, because I am not. We all have our biases, however lightly held. The FDA won’t even look at studies done outside of the USA; I guess that they think that they are being patriotic or something or everyone else in other countries are less intelligent than Americans or suspect or something. I also have these kinds of biases, and perhaps one of the lesson of LENR development is to dissolve our biases. But perhaps LookMoo had one of these biases, despite his good point about all of the most important science journals being in English. Someone had to say it so that we could deal with it and blow it out of the water.

    • Warthog

      Like it or not, there is. As, once upon a time (and for many centuries) Latin was, and later, for a much shorter time, French (“linqua franca”). German made a short bid, but WWII put a stop to that. English is the current “common lanquage currency”, and will likely be the last…as computers take over translation tasks. It remains to be seen if that last will force an “evolutionary Esperanto” or cause a resurgence of national languages.

  • Fortyniner

    Ouch!! 🙂

  • georgehants

    Well I am going out for a good Sunday lunch and a glass of red and the establishment is apparently not fast-tracking certification of Mr. Rossi’s domestic units for use in water purification.
    What a Wonderful fair, equal World we all live in.
    ———-
    Dirty water kills 5,000 children a day
    · Sanitation the key to saving millions of lives
    · UN urges governments to ensure supplies for all
    http://www.theguardian.com/business/2006/nov/10/water.environment

    • Axil Axil

      FYI

      Solar water disinfection

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_water_disinfection

      High energy ultraviolet radiation from the sun can also be used to kill pathogens in water. The SODIS method uses a combination of UV light and increased temperature (solar thermal) for disinfecting water using only sunlight and plastic PET bottles. SODIS is a free and effective method for decentralized water treatment, usually applied at the household level and is recommended by the World Health Organization as a viable method for household water treatment and safe storage

  • Alain Samoun

    me French…

    But I’m not hostile to the English language as I live in one (mainly) English speaking country. My point is that there is plenty of “top researchers”in the world who do not use english in their research. I think that if you were one of the top researchers you would understand that.

  • Bernie777

    I wonder how many people we are leaving out of the LENR discussion
    because they do not speak English or do not feel confident enough in English to
    join the discussion. How many ideas,
    point of views, are we missing that could enhance the LENR discussion? Do those not speaking English or not
    comfortable with the English language use Google Translate to share their
    views?

    • LookMoo

      Many Russian and Chinese researcher are unknown to us because they don’t speak good English. Take Russia, they only export oil (70%, export revenues in 2013) but Russia could do much better, they have probably one of the worlds best educated populations and best researchers. But the general population does not understand English. That prevents them from develop and take their fair share of the world market for other products than oil.

      The same goes for French,.. many small marvellous companies that could be big player on the international market if just the owner spoke English..

      • Bernie777

        I just never realized the language barriers were as strong
        as you indicate, especially in science.
        This amounts to a huge loss in world productivity. Thanks for bringing it to our attention, I am
        going to write Frank and see if something can be done to make it easier for non
        English speakers to post on this site, or maybe he will read this.

        • Mats002

          This language barrier might be the cause that Ni-H systems came late and mostly through Rossi. Piantelli did not reach outside Italy because of this or other reasons?

          • Mr. Moho

            No, I don’t think that language barrier is the reason. Before Rossi, most researchers in the LENR field weren’t very interested in Ni-H systems in the first place, focusing mainly on Pd-D electrolysis (the original Fleischmann-Pons experiment). Furthermore, Piantelli and his team held a low profile on purpose both due to Piantelli’s health issues and because apparently they don’t like trumpeting around results before they are 100% sure of them. However they have been participating in LENR workshops once in a while and been sharing presentations, updates in English, just not during most recent ICCF conferences.

            A couple examples:
            http://www.iscmns.org/work10/index.htm
            http://www.iscmns.org/work9/index.htm

            From this page:
            http://www.iscmns.org/search.htm
            (Search for “international workshop on anomalies in hydrogen”)

  • Alain Samoun

    Except that free energy could prolong the life of everybody – not bad for the ones who die in their young age because dirty water or war for example.

  • Fortyniner

    You are free to reconcile your own death, but to dismiss so lightly the early and avoidable deaths of others reveals again an unusual degree of callousness and indifference on your part.

    • bachcole

      What you say about death is only true if I were to think/feel that death is the absolute end. I know that it is not. I don’t go to funerals because my tears may be tears of joy rather than sadness.

      As far as people’s suffering is concerned, I am sure that the LENR developers are working as fast as they are able to.

      I should not be put in this defensive position because of your lack of understanding and lack of spiritual experience. You are the one lacking here, not me. You are attacking me because of your lack of understanding and lack of spiritual experience. My conscience and my heart are clear on this, and I don’t need your approval for anything.

      • GreenWin

        Rog, I doubt Fortyniner is attacking you. Rather he points to a vast portion of humanity that does not have basic survival needs – shelter, food, hygiene – which provide a foundation for spiritual growth. It is far harder to evolve spiritually whilst homeless or starving. Harder still for undernourished children sick from water-borne disease. Regardless of our personal views on life & death, we should advocate for others to develop their own views supported by a positive standard of living for all.

  • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

    “…take each man’s censure, but reserve thy judgement…”

    It is truly unfortunate that many scientists are not ‘operative’ in English, but that would put honest translators out of their jobs…

    It is also true that English is important for improved individual access to all subjects.

  • ecatworld

    Regarding the language issue: I understand that LENR is being followed internationally, and we have readers coming to ECW from many countries, and readers speaking different languages. I am sometimes a little embarrassed that I don’t have the multilingual skills that many of our readers have.

    Nevertheless, ECW is an English language site, and will remain so for the time being simply because that is my native tongue and it’s what I can deal with. There are tools out there like Google translate, and Bing translate that are very helpful in translating from one language to another, and I use them extensively when going to sites in other languages, like 22passi or Cobraf — both Italian sites.. I have Google translate built into my Chrome browser, which I find very helpful at times.

    There are improved translation tools coming along and I may add them to the site if they are simple and effective, but for now thing will stay as they are.

    • Ged

      I agree with this policy. English is the Lingua Franca of the world. As the world’s trade language, using English will always reach the largest audiance for the unit effort put in. Others can make straight translation sites too, to improve over those serviceable automatic translation tools.

      • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

        It is more important to speak and understand the scientific language first, translation can follow…

      • Jack T.

        If English is so superior why do you need a Supreme Court to interpret the constitution in the United States? English is a natural language. Natural languages are technically inferior. Artificial languages are technically superior. The English are good at consensus and have achieved world domination in language as a result. Don’t confuse popularity with quality and function. Isn’t that what this lenr website is all about? Great technology that nobody acknowledges?

        • GreenWin

          Jack, a court system functions as a mediator in the interpretation of law. While language does require interpretation, society has agreed on assigning judgment and arbitration of law to our court system. What artificial language would you prefer?

          • Jack T.

            This is off-topic so I don’t want to start a big back/forth here. My graduate thesis work involved artificial languages. Your question is “what language would you prefer”? The focus is not so much about a specific language. More on quality assurance principals. For example a simple case. One letter maps into one and only one sound. English breaks that rule: C in candy C in cinnamon. If you build a language from the ground up based on quality assurance principals it would not require interpretation.
            The fact that we have a supreme court whose primary purpose is to figure out and determine which laws passed by congress contradict with a document, the constitution, is proof that we have a faulty language system. Check out the word posterity on http://www.dictionary.com In the preamble to the US Constitution you will find the word “our” preceeding posterity. Which means the constitution only applies to the people in that room at the time the document was signed. It’s a big mess. That’s why you can be saying the pledge of allegiance in school for many years until someone comes along and figures out that it is unconstitutional.

          • Observer

            Proper spelling is proof that man is not a rational animal.

          • GreenWin

            Thanks for your thoughts Jack. I agree, human language is, like areas of quantum mechanics, full of probability as opposed to precision. But therein lies some of the delight in language and human communication. Were we without the potential for misinterpretation i.e. “A fair for all and no fare to anybody,” we would lose potential for humor, irony and double meanings.
            As for the Constitution, there is little misunderstanding in the opening line, “We the People of the United States…” This is an all-inclusive generalization that is used to indicate the founders intent to represent former subjects of the Crown as citizens of a new nation, the United States.
            Precise language, like Boolean and binary derivatives is great for analytical calculated communication. The hodgepodge contradictions of human languages and colloquial expressions is the basis of poetry, literature, metaphor and symbolism. In short, imprecise language makes for a common ground in which diverse interests can meet and communicate. Were language not open to interpretation, what fun would arguing the Talmud, Quran, bible, song lyrics or law be?? Who would celebrate Hemingway, LaoTzu, Jim Morrison or Maya Angelou?
            Most of our cosmic cousins appear to rely on metaphorical language to remain inclusive and exclusive simultaneously. Without metaphor to conceal origins, many of us would have to reveal our true identities — and there is great trepidation and loathing of such a radical step.

        • Ged

          Err, that is a very weird view. All language is artificial, made by Man, we didn’t find it springing from the ground. The majority of scientific literature is in english, and the most Internet users also understand english. It would be silly to use another language fewer know and which isn’t used by most science. Less people would be able to read, and information would travel less far with lower fidelity; a clear lose-lose for everyone.

          But humor me, out of all man-made language, which is “artificial” and superior?

          • Jack T.

            Actually this discussion has many aspects in common with LENR.

            What happens when someone figures out a way to patent a logical/physics juggernaut?

            The short answer is the government shuts them down.

            I worked for an inventor. Light is both a particle and a wave. This really smart guy figured out a way to do 3D imaging despite this roadblock and patented the process.

            http://articles.latimes.com/2013/jun/26/business/la-fi-mo-sec-accuses-burbank-company-of-misleading-investors-20130626

            Government came in with a frivolous lawsuit and shut the operation down.

            Getting back to language. There are two directions language can take. More complex and less complex. As language becomes less complex it reaches a limit. That limit belongs to me. I copyrighted an automata which is perhaps the simplest in existence used to create the words of an error-free artificial langauge. Below are the specs for that language and the automata.

            http://lingvo.jjt.kinnect.me/gorbiel/specs/
            http://lingvo.jjt.kinnect.me/gorbiel/specs/L2.htm

            In answer to your concern about consensus. It is easy to create a language that is error free at the lower levels. Say 1..4. Things start falling apart and get difficult when you try to implement the higher levels 5, 6, and 7. Let’s say you found a genie in a bottle. Gave you one wish. Would you ask for a language that 7 billion people on earth knew how to use or would you prefer a language which could achieve level 7 of quality standards? It is a controversial issue so I am not going to answer it for people. Currently we are experiencing a language holocaust brought on by the English language. I would not get too cocky however because in my opinion artificial is the best.

          • Ged

            I’ve seen when the government does that too, or even larger corporations. Definitely a bad thing, and it’s really sad to hear that happened to one you were working with. Keep pushing those boundaries to see where you get!

        • Ged

          Also, courts having to do interpretations has nothing to do with language. It has to be done for edge cases and for when laws conflict with other laws (major reason).

        • Omega Z

          You got it all wrong.
          We need the Supreme Court to interpret because we have about 30% of the Worlds lawyers that mucks everything up. Where do you live. We’ll export some of our surplus lawyers to your country. Oh the horror… Be afraid. Be VERY Afraid. 🙂

          Note: English predates the U.S. by several 100 years. It is merely the adopted language…

          You post that “English is a natural language. Natural languages are technically inferior.”

          It is an ever morphing, adaptive language. It is the “BORG” of languages. Resistance is futile. Prepare to be assimilated. It’s an advanced, superior language & can describe & explain about anything & everything by those who have a good command of it. If your language has a better descriptive word, It will be assimilated.

          NOTE: A 2010 study determined there is in excess of 1 million English words & growing by 10K/20K a year. It is beyond control of Governments & the establishment. It evolves on it’s own. It is anything but Inferior.

        • Frechette

          Why did the sun never set on the British Empire? God doesn’t trust the English. LOL.

      • Frechette

        More people speak Spanish than any other language and that includes Chinese Mandarin. English may in the future become a dead language just as Latin.

        • Ged

          You’ll have to prove that with actual data, cause I don’t remotely believe that. Nevermind that Mexican spanish and Spain spanish are pretty different, let alone Portuguese, and more different than American English is to England English. And then Brazilian? Also quite different.

        • Omega Z

          That is so 20 years ago.
          More people speak English than any other language.
          India has the largest English speaking population in the world at present & in China it’s mandatory learning starting in 1st grade in the cities & 3rd grade in the rural areas. It in all likelihood become the universal language.

          • bachcole

            Are we talking about native speakers or those who speak a language as a second language. Also important is how “powerful” the speakers are. Just because a lot of ignorant and poor (and infinitely precious) villagers in some country speak a language really doesn’t count for importance in international trade and politics. Mandarin has a lot of 1st language speakers, but not so many second language speakers (that number is growing), and most of those who speak Mandarin as a first language you won’t meet at an international conference on mega-tractors, although you might meet them at an international conference on shovels.

    • Observer

      If you speak three languages you are trilingual, if you speak two languages you are bilingual, and if you speak only one language you are an American.

      • Fortyniner

        Or a Brit…

        • Jonnyb

          No I speak English and American English so kind of bilingual.

          • GreenWin

            They got two official languages in Canada. But 98% Canadians speak English. Why?

          • notquite

            @GreenWin… not really… In Canada the province has a bit more than 20% of the population and 80% of them speak french. So at least 16% of canadians can speak french.
            But yeah there more people speaking hindi than french in toronto and more people speaking madarin in vancouver.

          • Alain Samoun

            You mean Chinese Mandarin – A language that all Americans should know. 😉

          • Fortyniner

            I can understand at least 90% of American English, but can’t speak it. Fortunately, most Americans can understand at least 90% of English English, so some limited amount of communication is possible.

          • Sometimes the History channel has to include subtitles along with Southern accents in our own country.

          • Omega Z

            I just ran your post thru Google translate.
            I’m still at a total loss as to what your talking about.
            It would appear that you are just randomly hitting keys & posting it.
            🙂

  • William D Fleming

    Excellent point. Working frantically to keep every single body alive is a foolish and futile endeavor, and is out of accord with natural laws. Earth can support only so many humans, or any other species. When one of us dies room is made for someone else. IMO the only part of a human worth survival was never born and will never die, and that is the part we share all together.

    Of course we are going to help others when we can, but there is a limit. Go beyond that limit and help turns into harm.

    • bachcole

      William, you make perfect sense to me.

      Too many people look upon love and charity as a burden. I guess that it gets in the way of their selfish endeavours. I see love and charity as an honour, privilege, opportunity, and the road to happiness.

      • LilyLover

        “I see love and charity as an honour, privilege, opportunity, and the road to happiness.”
        >>
        Love ought to exist unconditionally. For poor or for rich.
        Charity as honor? It’s a pressure valve mechanism to keep the discontent simmering for the longest time instead of blowing in your face.
        Love as opportunity? Hence the societal discontent. To love is to be human. It’s essence of humanism. Love is optional only to robots. But then again parasite-supporters might not even have a human-heart. So, love could be optional to them.
        Just ignore these people George. Not everyone is fit to be humane-human.
        Privilege – is it a good thing? Especially if the privilege was acquired through immorality and cruelty?
        Privilege. Those who benefit from ancestral cruelty, will keep defending it.

    • f sedei

      To me, this is flawed rationale and thinking. Who sets the limits, and what are the limits?

      • LilyLover

        You ugly? You die. You coward? You die. You afraid of parasites? You die. You parasite? After the host is dead, you die. So, everyone dies. It’s just the game of parasite-worshipping through, pride, beauty, laws or immorality. Dear George, you cannot urge the parasites to give up parasitism. They’ll only make token sacrifices to look good in front of their children. The riches of the fractional banking feed the hypnotic media and justifies “limited-goodness”.
        You are right to try with all your heart to save those 5000 children per day – others convince themselves – it’s a good thing – as long as it’s not their children.
        The true nature of immorality of ignorance – hence the ignorance is bliss.

      • William D Fleming

        Every human being alive is the culmination of a long line of survivors. To cast a critical eye on people’s lifestyles and judge them to be in want because of how they live is pure arrogance IMO. Seems to me that the best way to help humanity is through respect. Going off with a million Ecats to make people change their ways sounds disrespectful, egotistic, and dangerous to me. Dangerous because actions founded in ignorance often go beyond helping and become harmful long term.

        If you are intimately acquainted with a community of people as though they were your kin, and they ASK your help in acquiring an Ecat system, then limited help, given with humility, would be appropriate. That is the limit I was referring to.

  • bkrharold

    I am so glad to hear MFMP will be receiving advice and help from Piantelli. After the recent post by Andrea Rossi, in which he emphasizes the difficulty of duplicating his work, I believe this collaboration will move the project forward in a more productive direction.

  • Obvious

    How is anyone supposed to axe a question if there is no X?

    • bachcole

      Since we don’t know the color of your skin, we don’t know if that was racist or not. (:->)

      • Obvious

        I don’t know what you mean.
        I’m fairly certain that any explanation is a path we don’t want to start on, though.

        • I don’t know if Bart is a good representative of elocution, Mr. Burns maybe.

    • Mike Henderson

      Call 1-800-AXE-GARY?

    • Fortyniner

      They could acs it…

  • Dr. Mike

    Every detail of processes and procedures is exactly what MFMP needs for a successful replication. No doubts that Project Fedora will be an outstanding success!
    Now it appears MFMP has two clear paths for replication- Project Fedora and Prof. Parkhomov. These approaches are much better than trying to replicate the Lugano reactor, where there are so many unknowns.

    Dr. Mike

    • Axil Axil

      Piantelli uses a top of the line vapor disposition device to build the active nano-surface on his bars. MFMP does not have this capability. To do a replication, Piantelli will need to give MFMP these bars. Piantelli could be completely open about everything involved in his technology with the exception of how to build these reactive nickel bars.

      • Dr. Mike

        Axil Axil,
        I agree. Piantelli probably would have to provide his vapor deposited bars to achieve a successful replication in a reasonable time frame. I assume that if Piantelli has been granted patents, his patents are detailed enough that the bars could be duplicated by those “familiar with the art”. Most major universities with capabilities for doing basic semiconductor processing should have equipment available for fabricating Paintelli’s bars. I believe MFMP’s replication of Paintelli’s work would lead to many of these universities starting up a LENR program.
        Dr. Mike

        • Frechette

          One needs to know what materials are being deposited and the process conditions under which the deposition is carried out among other things. Just being in possession of an expensive vapor deposit vacuum chamber is not enough.

        • clovis ray

          Mike, has piantelli, ever actuly produced excess heat in his experiments, and if so how much and when, and who over saw it being produced, as in 3 party. and about these bars, that sounds a little old for this tech, it all about surface area, and bars like wires just don’t cut it.

          • James Andrew Rovnak

            Great comment Clovis, Jim

  • Gerard McEk

    If LENR would be easy to do, than we would have had it as a main energy source for over a century.
    While we are still missing the theory and have to figure-out by trial and error what parameters have influence, progress takes time. It is good that the MFMP guys now are being thought what others have found out in thousands of attempts. That will give them an enormous boost and bring LENR in reach for them. Good development!

  • Sonyei Hatchison

    Once again the MFMP drops the ball!
    Flying a whole team to talk to one guy in Italy on a whim, a team that doesn’t even speak Italian – there is a thing called skype, but why do the right thing when you and your friends can all enjoy a vacation on the investors dime. I am not hopeful Piantelli will really give up all his secrets, he is not stupid.
    The problem is Robert Greenyer, this expat brit lives in Asia and calls all the shots, running this project into the ground.
    There is a company in America called HUGnet, they do all the legwork and seem to be good people with a long history of projects in sustainability. These guys are in all the pictures doing tons of work and their labor is never put on the Bill of Materials, they always work for free.
    How can a group as big as MFMP be led by someone who isn’t a scientist, doesn’t have any credentials? I have an engineering degree and worked in a similar industry for 15 years and would still not feel comfortable leading a project as complex as this – this guy owns a small 3d animation company according to linkedIN.
    The MFMP is an experiment which has outgrown itself, the structure is dooming it to fail.
    Rob gets starrey eyed every time a researcher with a reputation gives them the time of day.
    Rob wasted tens of thousands working with Celanie according to their Bill of Materials – nothing.
    Rob made a big deal of working with Brian Ahern and using his gas powders – nothing.
    Rob “replicated” Defkalion sparker type cells spending tons of money – nothing.
    Rob has a new plan, direction or theory every week – nothing.
    Rob babbles about Live Science and Transparency but where is the decision making process or plan – nothing
    If MFMP did the original Martin Fleischman experiment by now they would have made thousands of working reactors – instead Rob always wants to innovate and try something new with no idea how to lead a project.

  • Antonio Bervardas

    Piantelli is not inviting the MFMP out of the kindness of his heart, he has investors which call the shots, its crazy to think that they would let him destroy the value of the company by giving away all the IP.

    He will most likely feed the MFMP just enough to allow them to produce a decent reaction which enables his patent claims while keeping the best LENR reactor for himself.
    The MFMP is spreading themselves thin by bouncing around different projects and not finishing anything.

    If they would have kept it simple and spent all this time and money on Flecihman and Pons replication they would be distributing LENR reactors all over the world by now, the reinvented the wheel too many times.

    • friendlyprogrammer

      The Pons/Fleischmann “Wheel” only worked one out of a hundred tries. It was so hard to replicate that it has been dismissed for decades as junk science. There was some room for improvement and Nickel/Hydrogen seems like a more likely bet.

      Poor analogy. Re-inventing the wheel has seen nothing but improvements since the days of Chariots, and is a great thing.

  • bachcole

    “The comment below” was yanked for some strange reason {sarcasm}. It seemed like a skeptopathic attack for no reason other than to harm the LENR effort. Was this part of a conspiracy? Not sure, but why would anyone bother to spend the time to do all of that typing if they weren’t getting something out of it. Perhaps the only thing that they got out of it was an opportunity to externalize their psychological problems. Or, it was part of a bigger conspiracy and they were getting paid. I did not need to know whether it was factual or not to be able to tell that it was sick. There was no prior grumbling about Bob Greenyer. If it was factual and just, there would have been some grumbling. There was no grumbling. Therefore the comment was sick.

    I agree that a person does not have to be a scientist or an engineer to be a good leader of a technology development group. Thomas Edison was one, without doubt the most prolific inventor in the history of the world. Edison didn’t even get past the 4th grade.

  • Oceans2014

    Motive: “we wish to demonstrate incontrovertibly that Piantelli is the father of the Nickel Hydrogen system” .

    • friendlyprogrammer

      WE know Rossi got the motivation from Piantelli, but was Piantelli the first? When was the Patterson Cell, etc?

      • Mid 90s. Paterson stumbled upon a rich batch of beads that gave great results, but he was unable to reproduce them. George Miley picked up his “bead” work and discovered minuscule particles offered more surface area and efficiency.

        • friendlyprogrammer

          My understanding is that Pattersons Son in Law was running the company and died tragically in his 30’s with an aneurism. This deflated the company and the much older Patterson was too old and could not recover from the loss.

          George Miley was HIRED by them to authenticate the discovery. I’ve often wondered if the remnants of the Patterson company could sue Miley for running off with their process.

          • GM magnified the Patersons beads and said “I can reproduce these with smoother surfaces” when he did they became less efficient. He realized the craggy surface areas were essential. This led to the particles.

  • BroKeeper

    Bravo!, MFMP, Bravo!, for standing up for integrity. Bravo!

    • friendlyprogrammer

      Agreed, but it would seem to contravene their mandate if they harnessed their ability to speak openly about LENR as their entire purpose was originally to make the public aware of LENR to comemorate Martin Fleischmann.

      • Bob Greenyer

        We have to share, that is the point. We also want to show an incontrovertible experiment, Piantelli is thorough in a way that is rarely exhibited in this field.

        You cannot imagine the turmoil we suffered, we believe we can work with NicHEnergy to deliver our primary goal, but we cannot be restricted in our choices of things to test, we are staunchly independent.

  • At this point many are practicing an illogical secrecy. Secrecy for secrecy sake. It’s got to stop.

    What the non-Industrial Heat players in this game need to realize is that you are about to become irrelevant. Rossi and company are going to eat your lunch. They could probably do it today, but are biding their time, taking advantage of their big lead to do things on their terms. While you hide behind patent adventures and strip teases, IH is preparing to mass market actual devices at a price point that will render your activities pointless.

    The best you can hope for now is to force Industrial Heat’s hand early and set up a competitor while they are still vulnerable. YOU HAVE TO MOVE NOW.

  • Pekka Janhunen

    A related additional remark: There is a straightforward theory (runaway relativistic electrons) for lightning produced gammas. While the phenomenon is interesting, I’m not aware of facts that would suggest that it would have something to do with lenr.

  • Dr. Mike

    Bob,
    I agree 100% with your position on not signing an NDA:”We refused to sign it without even reading it, it is not who we are”. If Piantelli is unable to share the details which are needed for replicating his device, you would be better off spending your efforts working with Professor Parkhomov.
    Dr. Mike

    • Sanjeev

      That’s plan B.
      I don’t know what the “cooperation agreement” is and why it took 4 days to write (!), but still hope there is some chance of seeing an actual experiment, live and open. Else plan B……

      • Dr. Mike

        Sanjeev,
        It sure would be good if MFMP could get some useful information from their meeting with Piantelli.
        Dr. Mike

  • guest

    “We then spent 4 full days, writing a cooperation agreement which respected both parties and which was well received by NicHEnergy.”
    Well done, MFMP team!

    • Robert Ellefson

      “Well done” would have been to work out a clear agreement _before_ investing such a significant amount of time and money on this trip. I count this as another leadership problem, IMHO.

      • Alain Samoun

        Well,MFMP obviously did not expect to have an NDA to sign. What NickEnergy was thinking?- Get MFMP to work for them for nothing? and they would receive all the benefits? In this context it is gracious to say “we wish to demonstrate incontrovertibly that Piantelli is the father of the Nickel Hydrogen system”

  • Private Citizen

    Hey, keep it under your fedora guys. As for feline metaphors, the Piantelli device now would be the Cat in the Hat.

    “After a week of meetings and direct knowledge transfer” they pull out the NDA? Man, that’s a lot of talking about the weather.

    Looks like another LENR hope threatens to go bust: Celani, Paintelli–hopefully Parkhomov will not score the hat trick.

    • Bob Greenyer

      Piantelli has been through very difficult times and is still going strong – ask yourself who works hard at 81 that you know, he is driven.

  • Alberonn

    How come this does not seem illogical and does not come as a surprise at all, considering the possible motivations of Piantelli et al to invite MFMP, as amply discussed on this site…
    Please MFMP, stop wasting your precious (voluteer!) time and resources, accept the invitation of Parkhomov, before he draws attention of Putin&Friends and gets muzzled : no time to loose…

    • Bob Greenyer

      Parkhomov has invited us for the 26th Feb. We learnt how incredibly important it was in Italy to have a real-time translator at our disposal, we cannot thank our man more, and he volunteered his time. We need to organise that and visas etc (which means getting an invite first to come and stay).

      To be fair to Piantelli, it came across genuinely that he was really worried about the kind of meltdown he had and that if someone was to suffer an accident, the whole field might be shut down, he was in despair over it.

      • Eyedoc

        Great info Bob ….Thanks again for all you and teams efforts….Keep the POSITIVE ENERGY flowing 🙂

      • Axil Axil

        I have seen a call for a group buy of Hot-cat reactor replication material in a resent post on the web from a group of new holeyest experimenters just now coming into the E-Cat replication game. I surely hope that no one gets hurt.

        • Bob Greenyer

          So do we. It is not easy to do the sealing and quite apart from explosions or possible worse outcomes there is the risk of exposure to LiAlH4 (causing death according to Brian Ahern) or Nickel powders, causing permanent allergy (not good if you have Nickel in your coinage) and breathing problems. Piantelli’s severe breathing problems could in part be due to nickel particle exposure.

        • Sanjeev

          Where have you seen it ? Any links ?

  • LuFong

    With Update #4, none of this sounds very good and I’m glad that a NDA agree was not signed. The cooperation agreement (which we haven’t seen) is a bit perplexing however–I thought MFMP and Piantelli were cooperating! Time to move on if you ask me. There’s certainly plenty to do.

    • Bob Greenyer

      Actually, Piantelli and NicHEnergy have continued to cooperate and meet and share with us since we refused to sign the NDA.

      The reality is, the MFMP is the first organisation that had been there to add value, rather than extract it, Piantelli could see that and at least said that he had never talked so freely about his work.

      We are not stopping our other work, we have been told that the Optris PI160 is made and may even be delivered to me tomorrow, in which case, I need to get it to the US!

      • Albert D. Kallal

        Being in software I often had to sign NDA’s. And in fact on some cases I signed non compete contracts.

        There is a difficult if not delicate balance here. You folks are in a great position to promote LENR and validations of this effect can only create more interest.

        On the flip side, be it those in Silicon Valley, or any company working with some technology, they cannot give the farm away. Thus the classic how can we promote and validate something based on someone’s IP rights but allow them to keep such rights?

        And often (if not most all) NDA’s are overreaching. As noted, in the cases where I signed such agreements there was benefits to me in that signing such agreements = more paying work. This is not your case – in other words, what benefits are to be had for the MMFP?

        I think the amazing part here NicHEnergy is so willing to cooperate. They not slammed the door nor have that “all or nothing” attitude.

        Hopefully some kind of arrangement can come to fruition that respects both parties and their interests. However, such agreements will remain a challenge for both parties.

        As you well note, all is not lost here. If MMFP is going to do a 3rd party replication based on NicHEnergy’s work, then I am hard pressed to see how they will not ask and want some kind of NDA. I dont’ see any other way.

        If NicHEnergy/Piantelli are offering to help you replicate the hot-cat based on their advice, then some agreement should not be too difficult, and not much restrictive to MMFP.

        Once again, thanks for all you doing here , and like the next episode of a great TV series, we always waiting for the next chapter!

        Regards,
        Albert D. Kallal
        Edmonton, Alberta Canada

        • Yes, not cooperating may hinder the domain.

          Maybe MFMP could ask to make the NDA public, so people see there is no tricks, just commonsense IP protection.

          That is not charity, that is business.

          people having dared to oppose the consensus have been rdiculed, have broke their careers, lost all opportunities of recognition, and I estimate they deserve at least to have their IP protected so thay can try to make money and raise their two fingers at the face of the consensus…

          If none of those who dared to face the consensus can make big money, it will be unfair, it will be a reason for next generation of deniers of reality to follow the consensus and for possible dissenters to stay inline with the groupthink.

          I want the deniers to feel stupid, to feel they missed a billion in their pocket. “Paris vaut bien une messe” as said Henry 4.

          http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=517374&langid=6

  • Gerard McEk

    A good decision Bob, I am glad that you did not sign this. It is sad that you are brought in this situation. I hope your good relationship with Piantelli did not suffer too much?

    • Bob Greenyer

      Actually, Piantelli was very friendly with us, often mocking and cracking jokes with us. He is a formidable man.

      That said, we cannot sign and NDA.

  • Frechette

    And I thought it was 1853-57: Eugenio Barsanti and Felice Matteucci who invented and patented an engine using the free-piston principle that was possibly the first 4-cycle internal combustion engine. Can’t get away from the Italians.

  • Frechette

    English is a mongrel language. Seventy percent of English words have Latin roots. The other thirty percent come from German.

  • Curbina

    I’m really glad they found a way around the NDA. Phew, I thought that had be the end of it.

  • Bob Greenyer

    As you are aware we took a fact finding mission to Sienna, just prior to Christmas. Just a nucleus team of myself and Mathieu for a 2 days (as we were closest), to see if it was a valuable direction and practical. The purpose was to minimise any outgoings on this potential experiment thread.

    There was nothing at all to indicate during that trip that we would not proceed in the way we operate. On many occasions we detailed how we would like to run an experiment and it is no mystery that we use LOS. Given this positive initial engagement and taking seriously Piantelli’s dire warnings about the state of his health, we took it upon ourselves to do everything possible to capture what we could, in case it was not an option later. If we are to believe in any Ni+H system, then Siena is the source, the only rational action was to take the opportunity to go.

    In just a few weeks, with your help, we managed to raise separate funds for this trip, organise all the logistics, excuse ourselves from our family, businesses and employment commitments and ship a full strength team from 6 countries, including a real time translator and videographer to Italy.

    Piantelli, despite having great difficulty with his health shared profusely.

    We would ask that people be patient as we work through the details with them. They read the posts here and over a wide array of forums and are very sensitive to public perception. You can help us by being respectful, the people involved have dignity and are well respected in their communities and for the businesses they run, this was very evident.

    We thank you all for your kind support.

    • Ged

      That is amazing to hear. It is a long walk to be sure, but the MFMP has been diligent and wise. Keep it up guys, we’re supporting you whole heartedly.

    • Gerard McEk

      I did not know that much was going on…
      All I can say is learn, capture as long as you can and when you are ready, show the world what LENR is!
      We rely on you guys!

  • Bob Greenyer

    It was certainly not wasted time. We could not run the []=Project Dog Bone=[] thermal assessments as still waiting for Optris PI160 and Dr. Parkomov invited us for 26/2, and there is a LOT of logistics to work out before then.

  • Ged

    Sounds like they were trying to secretly make you guys employees, but using the NDA to keep you from doing other research and just focusing on their tech. Pretty crafty, since you guys have become such a savvy and powerful resource! Glad you guys saw through the ruse ;).

    • Bob Greenyer

      Piantelli is very frustrated that some of the greatest minds in the world are wasting their lives on rubbish pursuits.

      His principal motivation, repeatedly iterated to us, was his hope that doing an utterly incontrovertible experiment with us would spur a world-wide investigation into what EXACTLY the anomaly is, he mentioned the Manhattan project in this context – there are so many theories it is clear no one knows what is really going on!

      He is so frustrated that in the last century they could gather all that resource and achieve a goal in 2 years and here we are, excess heat or not, 25+ years on with no real answer to what is happening.

      He argues that only a fully consistent exacting experiment would be able to start the process, it is too easy for nay-sayers to tear down experiments that have even just one hole.

      • Ged

        This is very true, and I can completely understand his feelings and position. It is scientifically frustrating that media perception and talking heads formed the narrative for the world, and the actual scientific process to evaluate all the complex yea and nay data coming in from so many sources was halted. And thus, so was the search for truth. But not completely, or we wouldn’t be here, talking now. That alone is a remarkable happening.

        Keep pushing it guys. If it’s true, you guys can find it and show it, and then there will be a Manhattan project.

      • Pekka Janhunen

        I’m wondering if A. Parkhomov does his experiment in an area of Moscow
        that looks like Manhattan… I doubt it, but you are in a position to go
        and find out!

      • Axil Axil

        Keep things simple, There are less complicated experiments out there using lasers and gold nano-powder in water that can increase the decay of radioactive isotopes by a factor of a billion and can also cause the fission of uranium. Those experiments have not even been replicated. Such experiments would reveal the same underlying science as the very much more complicated nickel hydrogen system. Why not start with them?

  • Bernie777

    A very basic question probably can be answered by Bob Greenyer. Has Piantelli attempted a practical application for his reactor, like Rossi? If not, do you know why? I am convinced the only way private LENR research is going to happen on a big scale, is if someone shows practical money saving work done by a reactor.

    • Bob Greenyer

      Our discussions were primarily focussed on meeting our primary goal, collaborating on creating an incontrovertible demonstration of the effect.

      He pointed to an experiment, that we all saw that he claimed had been producing high levels of excess heat for a very long time and that he wanted to let run until it didn’t work anymore.

      He said on a number of occasions that their technology was much further along than the experiment we are discussing. It was repeatedly a clear point of frustration for him that he was needing to do this to settle debate in the field with an old, but protected, experiment when he had much better experiments that could be done.

      • ecatworld

        Bob, when you say a ‘protected’ experiment — what do you mean?

        • Bob Greenyer

          Based on his patent and previous journal published and peer reviewed paper.

      • Axil Axil

        Piantelli is wrong. All the assumptions behind fedora are bad.

        If the past is prolog, a demo, no matter how spectacular, will not work.

        http://hoaxes.org/comments/papparticle2.html

        R. Feynman on Papp perpetual motion engine

        The Papp engine was demonstrated to Richard Feynman and Feynman was determined to debunk this engine as a perpetual motion machine no matter what the demo showed. During the demo Feynman even killed a guy and maimed another during a demo of this 100 horse power excess energy device. Even though this killing burst of power occurred after he pulled the engine’s plug out and even after a teardown of the engine showed no hidden power source.

        An iron clad third party test that was enough to prove the Papp engine to the Patent office was not enough for the naysayers as that bygone time. Papp got patents for all of his inventions. I fact, the U.S. patent office awarded the last patent he was awarded for the last version of the Papp noble gas engine the best patent of the year honors.

        No matter what proof was provided, the systems that Joe Papp built must be flawed and could never work because Joe Papp was flawed. This same logic applies to Rossi and LeClair.

        The DGT system is flawed because DGT ran out of money. So that system could not have worked because the cost controls employed by DGT were tragically lacking.

        The naysayers want LENR to meet the open source requirements of science, They want to replicate them. Lenr is a thing, a machine, just like an aircraft. A machine cannot be proved scientifically. Scientific replication of a machine cannot be done because it is a system comprised of the principles derived from many sciences. And that proper combination of component parts are proprietary in industry. In this lies the dilemma of the clash of cultures that LENR suffers: science and engineering, A LENR designer can prove that some components of LENR work in a scientific experiment, but LENR can only be proven as an effective system by competing in the marketplace.

        LENR must make money, lots of it. The people who want to make money will force the smart people, the high priests of science to help them make money.

      • Alain Samoun

        BOB;

        I was wondering if you have asked Piantelli and Parkhomov if they have done some isotopes analysis on the ashes?

        • Bob Greenyer

          Piantelli has published many times his transmutation studies. We are not aware of any study by Parkhomov – maybe today?

  • Sanjeev

    MFMP was shown one of his LENR devices running with a large excess heat (>10W) continuously for over 2 years (over 600MJ).

    http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg101190.html