Leonardo Corporation Holds E-Cat Cards

In January 2014 when Industrial Heat announced it had bought the rights to Andrea Rossi’s technology, it seemed that the days of Leonardo Corporation as the drivers of development and commercialization were over. But recently Andrea Rossi has made statements which show that Leonardo Corporation, where he is CEO, is actually in control of the E-Cat’s intellectual property and commercial strategy. I’m not sure what, if anything, has changed lately, but Rossi’s tone in comments on the JONP is certainly emphasizing the role of Leonardo much more these days.

For example, yesterday there were some direct questions about regarding the topic from Daniel G. Zavlea. Below are the questions and Rossi’s responses.

Dear Dr. Rossi,
To avoid confusion:

1- who is the owner of the Intellectual Property related to the E-Cat and the so called Rossi Effect?

AR: Leonardo Corporation

2- who will decide the global industrial and commercial strategy for the E-Cats?

AR: the Board of Directors of Leonardo Corporation, in collaboration with the Licensees on the base of their specific agreements and Territories

3- who will manufacture the E-Cats?

AR:Leonardo Corporation and the Licensees that have also the manufacturing license

4- who will sell the E-Cats?

AR: Leonardo Corporation and the commercial Licensees in their Territories

So it seems that in this multi-layered organization that Leonardo Corporation is going to be involved at every level. It would seem from these responses that Industrial Heat is one of a number of licensees, and perhaps they hold a manufacturing license as well as commercial license for certain territories.

When Tom Darden of Industrial Heat spoke at ICCF19, and gave the interview with Infinite Energy magazine, he came across more of an investor in LENR researchers, and a promoter of the technology, and emphasized that he was quite hands-off when it came to the R&D work of the scientists he was investing in. It seems that Rossi is maintaining quite a lot of independence from Industrial Heat, even though they may be sponsoring his current work.

There are still a lot of unanswered questions, such as who is on the board of Leonardo Corporation, who all the remaining licensees are, and who has manufacturing licenses. Maybe this will become clearer when the commercialization process begins, and that seems to depend on the testing currently underway in the undisclosed location where Rossi is currently working. It does seem, though, that Andrea Rossi is still very much in control of his invention.

  • Observer

    Did Industrial Heat buy a percentage of Leonardo Corporation?

    Are they the majority stock holder?

    There is the CEO (and founder) and there is the Chairman of the Board of Directors (representing the venture capitalists). This is the standard arrangement for VC funded start-ups.

    • BillH

      The last time I checked on IH it had a very limited website and only 3 or 4 named personnel. I believe it was set up to finance AR and his research, they had $11M in the kitty and were looking for further investors to take that up to $20M.

  • Bob

    As I posted before…. this concerns me very much.

    About intellectual property :

    http://oilprice.com/Alternative-Energy/Nuclear-Power/Industrial-Heat-Acquires-E-Cat-Technology-Opening-Commercial-LENR-Frontier.html

    Prometeon statement about license :

    http://www.e-catworld.com/2014/11/24/prometeon-srl-addresses-e-cat-licensee-status/
    I do not know what is happening, but it makes me very uncomfortable. The press release from IH seems to clearly state they purchased the intellectual property and U.S. marketing rights.
    The second link is about European licensee’s and it does not reflect well either. Prioa and Prometeon seemed to be very legit and professional. Not only they did they get the short end, the story line was seemingly misconstrued to a great deal.
    The continual drama relating to the eCat, Leonardo Corp. / Rossi with outside interests is worrisome.
    I would be really interested in what bits of information that Matts Lewan, Frank, MFMP and others with close connections are hearing in regards to the relationship. There certainly seems to be a big departure from what it was just a couple of months ago between IH and Rossi it seems. If so, not good at all.
    🙁

    • deleo77

      It doesn’t make much sense that Rossi is now saying that Leonardo owns the IP when the press release from Cherokee said that they were acquiring the IP. All I can think is that Darden gave up on the IP when they failed to get a patent, so IH is simply a licensee now. Or perhaps a bigger split took place where Darden has backed off from the investment. I agree though that if this all goes back to being just Leonardo corp it is significant, and not in a good way.

      • Observer

        Who owns Leonardo Corporation?

        This is a game of nested dolls.

    • Frank Acland

      I don’t have insider knowledge, and I’ve heard nothing about there being any adverse changes in the Rossi/IH relationship. Rossi has said that the testing is going on at an IH customer site which would seem to indicate that relationship is still intact.

      • Paul

        If you see the address indicated by Rossi in the trademark request, you’ll see that it is in Miami and that it is a new unknown company registered by the same person who registered other companies linked to Rossi and his collaborators. So, the E-Cat could be in a Rossi’s facility, not in a IH’s customer facility…

  • In the same idea, the key idea of LENR-Cities ecosystem is that each member keep full property on his IP.
    Members just have access to IP at a discounted price compared to the public, by contract.

    Here it seems logicam tha LC keep the IP, but I imagine that IH have fair access, at fair price, to the IP in order to make investments, and be motivated.

    • mcloki

      There’s a ton of companies that own the MP4 IP and they all share it. This seems no different. Eventually this tech will be licensed out. It’s the easiest and quickest way for this tech to go mainstream. Everyone will have their finger in the pie. Most likely under the umbrella of a LENR standards group eventually.

  • Paul

    This seems a not good news. If true, it could mean that Rossi is alone again. Anyway, I cannot understand how Darden allows Rossi to say that Leonardo has the IP, when Darden itself made a press release stating exactly the contrary: that he had acquired the IP. Hmmm, someone lies… In my opinion, this is not a professional behaviour from both the parties, they are contradict each other in public… Good luck!

  • GreenWin

    Tom Darden has stated his investment in E-Cat is to address air pollution. Specifically coal. He has also indicated several times he’s supporting other developers in the LENR space. And that Cherokee Investment Partners are interested in the PV/storage solution. Following his appearance at ICCF 19, it is likely Darden was inundated with funding requests from other LENR developers. He alluded to being open to such requests.

    It would be unsurprising to learn Cherokee will invest in LENR not controlled by A.R:

    “The Cherokee-McDonough Challenge is always looking for great partners
    that will help identify and fund high impact environmental startups. We
    are eager and excited to partner with Citrix, Red Hat and HQ Raleigh to
    merge our clean tech accelerator into the Innovators Program. We believe
    this will expand the resources and opportunities available to the early
    stage environmental companies we seek to support,” said JT Vaughn, the
    founding director of the Cherokee-McDonough Challenge.”
    JT Vaughn, 7/10/2015

    http://hqraleigh.com/innovators-program-raleigh-now-accepting-applications/

  • clovis ray

    Hi, Guys, i’m sure that Dr.R will clear this all up soon, could it be, that I/H, bought the ip for the l/t reactor, and Dr, R has the rights to everything else, the new hot cat, belongs to Leonardo corp.

    • BillH

      If that were true IH would simply ask AR to remove the Hot Cat from the test site that IH provided and he’d be back to square one. No testing, no customers, no money.

      • clovis ray

        Hi, billH
        Not necessarily, he did have a clause that said he was to be the lead science person for H/I, remember, as well as being paid a huge amount of money. I would say he is setting pretty, in the cat bird seat, right where he belongs, I say he is the only one that can handle the pressure that the E-cat brings,

  • AlbertN

    A few days ago I asked Rossi on JONP if his relationship with Tom Darden / Industrial Heat had changed recently. He did not respond. This is the first time he did answer one of my questions.

    This does not bode well. If this was a stock it would be tanking now …

  • LilyLover

    If I were to speculate randomly, the good Dr. Rossi has set things up in following manner:
    To him, the Leonorardo1996 means something important.
    his love for everything good in life, has compelled him to make his wife at least 51% owner of Leonardo Corp.
    He’s nice to nice people but he is foxier to the foxes.
    He outmaneuvered DGT at the risk of personal peril.
    When IH treated him nicely, he gave them the IP for Low-Temp E-Cat for the funding.
    By the time the electricity savings became obvious and clear to Edison, GE, Seimens, Shell and the others in the fourth month of Low-Temp E-Cat with ongoing tests, Darden’s bosses asked hime to corner Rossi. By the end of 9 months of testing, Rossi received too many sources of funding for further research. Darden tried to coerce Rossi using lawyer-team to extinguish Leonardo through sequential partial take-over. Having sold the Low-Temp IP, Rossi simply made the Hot-Cat to have his IP in the back-pocket should things get contentious.
    When Rossi, was operated, IH did not bother to assure us that he was OK and there’s nothing to worry about. That implies, the Orders that Darden received have distanced him from Rossi.
    Rossi doesn’t care anymore because, many more bigger than IH players are ready to back him up should IH stab him in the back.
    As of now, I think IH will simply be the victim of their greed and be stuck with low-temp ECat.

    Siemens will fully back Leonardo and Rossi & his wife will control the IP for HOT CAT.

    If Siemens backstabs Rossi, Direct-Electricity hot cat is his “Ace in the hand” that he’ll surely retain under Leonardo.

    Leonardo is not going anywhere; my dear Dr. will make sure of that.

    NOTE:
    All of the absolve is speculation; I do not have any insider knowledge.
    This is all based on – ‘If I were Rossi’ hypotheicals.

    • Uncle Bob

      It cannot be the case that IH only bought the IP to the low temperature e_cat because whatever they bought was bought on the basis of the two hot-cat tests as described in the Lugano reports .
      It is inconceivable that after making their assessment to invest on the basis of these reports, they would then buy into only the older e-cat technology at such a high price..
      There can be little doubt that what IH bought was the current hot cat technology.

      I might also say that it’s very strange that the device designed and built to prove the technology to the ‘customer’ over a 12 month period is not actually being run and is only sitting there as a backup to another technology which results may be ‘either positive or negative’.
      What happens if the present test is ‘negative’ as has often been stated as a possibility?
      We still wont know if the original e-cat is proven because it hasn’t been running.

    • Eyedoc

      Why would you speculate ‘Siemans” over GE or Shell or others ??? Also who would be ‘Dardens bosses’ ?

  • malkom700

    Bad news once again because so far all our hope was in the IH.

  • Omega Z

    Lots of speculation.

    How can IH have bought Rossi’s IP & Rossi by way of Leonardo claims to have the IP without one or the other lying.

    It’s Elementary: It is a Partnership… Rossi even said his new partners.

    Note Larry Page of Google brought in an Outside CEO to run Google for several years. The CEO was the Boss & Larry was involved at department levels. R&D and such. However, Everyone at Google new that Larry Page was ultimately the Boss.

    Rossi is head of R&D, & others take care of day to day operations, But push come to shove, Rossi is ultimately in charge.

  • Mark D

    I lose confidence as It appears Rossi moves away from IH and back towards licensees like Roger Green. Hopeful of clarification from IH or Rossi on where they currently stand.

  • Mark D

    I lose confidence as It appears Rossi moves away from IH and back towards licensees like Roger Green. Hopeful of clarification from IH or Rossi on where they currently stand.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    I thought it was clear from the start that IH had licensed Rossi IP. What is not clear is what is in the contract between Leonorado and IH, are they just another licencee or is IH more involved with Leonorado, like shareholders and/or board members.

    • hempenearth

      I believe IH has manufacturing rights as well as rights to sell (commercial rights). I know of no others that have manufacturing rights.

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        You might be right, how do you know that, was it stated somewhere, I missed it.

        • hempenearth

          I’ve been trying to buy hot cats for a building in Australia, so I had to get clarified who I should be dealing with. IH has the selling rights in the Americas and China. Roger Green has the selling rights in Australia. I assume IH has manufacturing rights also because they manufactured for the Lugano testing and one earlier. From Hydrofusion’s website they have rights to sell in parts of Europe.

        • Uncle Bob

          It was clearly stated By Mr. Rossi a year or so back that IH had manufactured an e-cat and it had worked. That at least proves they were given all the information to produce the devices and I recall Mr. Rossi referring to this in the context that the ongoing of the technology did not depend on the good heath of Mr. Rossi.

          However, I also recall that some years earlier, Defkalion were in the same position but when the wheels fell off that ‘partnership’ , much to Defkalion’s surprise, the device they had produced earlier which supposedly worked, did not work when Mr. Rossi was no longer there.
          There has to be a reason for that.

          Defkalion thought it must be a technical reason so thinking they could soon determine that small problem and fix it, they went on saying they had it all ready to produce. And why not? They already had a wokring example to copy. But as we now know, after much work and many delays they have virtually disappeared from the scene, with no evidence of a working e-cat.
          I believe they eventually had to accept the hard reality, and that is, they never actually had an e-cat which worked as per the claims made.

          As ironic as it is, this conclusion is actually completely in accordance with what Mr. Rossi says, because after the partnership ended, he said Defkalion were never given a working e-cat.

          Why do I think all this is relevant?

          From the quotes in the leading article, it sounds like the good folk at Industrial Heat are about to go down the same path.

          Compare the language in the above answers with all the earlier proclamations regarding his new ‘partner’.

          There is no mention at all of his ‘partner’, or their great capacity and resolve to drive the technology forwards.
          There should be no doubt that had these questions been asked 18 months ago, they would have been included front and centre.
          But now they don’t even rate a mention.
          They appear to be lumped together with all the other “Licensees on the base of their specific agreements and Territories” as quoted from above.
          Having stumped up 12 million dollars to buy a technology, they could understandably expect to have a considerably greater input and control of its direction than what is indicated by the above answers.
          But then perhaps, so did Aldo Proia from Prometeon who spent a lot of time and money on promoting the technology on behalf of Mr. Rossi.
          But try as they did, even though they produced orders for the e-cat as required by their license agreement, they never actually got their hands on a working plant. And so far, neither has anyone else.
          Even the present sale to an independent customer is controlled and guarded day and night by just one person.

          As far as IH is concerned, so far I don’t see any indication that they will be any different.

          When the money stops flowing and push comes to shove, they will find they actually do not have a working e-cat..

          And I don’t think they ever did.

          When the partnership ends, any device which they had previously manufactured and had been proven to work, will mysteriously cease to work coincident with the end of the partnership.

          • Bernie Koppenhofer

            I want to make sure what you are insinuating, you are saying there is no
            such thing as a working E-Cat, the plant Rossi has been describing is a figment of his imagination, everyone from Defkalion to Lugano scientists, the Lugano testing itself faked, Industrial Heat, Industrial Heat’s attorneys and attorneys of all licencees, Mats Lewan, everyone witnessing the multiple e-cat tests have all been duped. If this is not your intent, please be clear.

            Regarding the manufacturing rights, unless you have seen the contract between IH and Leodardo you cannot say IH has manufacturing rights. Have you seen the contract?

          • Uncle Bob

            Sorry Bernie,.. I should have been more specific, but the post gets longer and longer. A detailed explanation will be necessarily long but here it is.

            What I am saying is I don’t believe any of the ecats worked to the claimed specifications, that is,.. a guaranteed COP of 6.

            I believe the plant Rossi has been describing certainly exists, but again, I don’t believe it has a COP of 6, or even 3. My belief at this point is it has a COP of 1.

            His constant reports that it is operating in ssm or in driven mode indicates to me that the running reports are all just made up.
            The idea of multiple reactors in a 1MW plant was to provide a continuous flow of steady power in and heat energy out. From the many reports that is obviously not happening. All reactors are either in ssm (mostly apparently) or in driven mode.
            This would be like running a multiple cylinder engine in all cylinders firing at once mode”.
            This is so bizarre that I find it impossible to believe.
            I appreciate that others might have no problem believing it but I don’t.

            Regarding “the Lugano testing” ;
            it was not faked, but it was conducted in a manner to specifically direct the attention of the testers away from the area of testing which would have made apparent the peculiarity which enabled the later testing at a higher temperature to show an apparent COP greater than 1, You may recall that in later testing, the COP at the lower temperatures was minimal. That’s because the parameters obtained during the lower temperature calibrations were more relevant. There were no calibrations done at the higher temperatures which the supposed high COP’s were produced. I believe that anomaly was known by someone but not those writing the report.

            You might remember the photographs of the first hot cat test which showed a glowing red hot ecat with a supposed small input power, and then it suffered an internal meltdown. The parameters of this test were stated as not being closely recorded so they couldn’t state the COP.
            I strongly believe this meltdown was solely for the purpose of keeping further calibration tests in the low temperature region so that when these figures were transposed into the high temperature tests, they would produce an apparently higher COP.
            A Thomas Clarke has previously posted a very detailed description of why this is so.

            I believe the test was planned that way.

            Also, the second Lugano test has little or no veracity due to the fact that Mr. Rossi was present at the test and had ‘hands on’ involvement even though he many times reported he had nothing to do with the testing and didn’t even have any knowledge of how the testing was progressing. There has to be a reason for this deception and I don’t think it was modesty.
            The fact that it was not taken up and published by anyone of any reputation suggests I’m not alone in that assessment.

            Regarding “Industrial Heat, Industrial Heat’s attorneys and attorneys of all licencees,”.

            Tom Darden readily admitted that the decision to become involved was on the basis of a weighted probability. That is, the likelihood of anything coming from it was small but if it came good, the payoff would be huge.
            Venture capitalists work that way. Risk and reward.

            They have little technical expertise and rely totally on the advice of others. As Tom Darden said, they decided primarily on the results of the two Lugano reports, which means if the conclusions in the reports were wrong then the decision to invest is also wrong. And as I have said, I think the conclusions are provably wrong.

            Regarding ” Mats Lewan, everyone witnessing the multiple e-cat tests have all been duped.” ;
            I think they were all duped, but understandably so. They witnessed a demonstration which was purposely set up to do just that.

            I was also initially duped until some days later in a video of the ecat test, someone asked Mr. Rossi where the thermocouple was placed. He pointed to the exact spot (he stated) on the heat exchanger where the thermocouple was placed and it was immediately obvious where the supposed excess energy was coming from, and why the water flow rate was made so ridiculously high when it need not be.

            I emailed Mats to point out the anomaly but it was his opinion that the high flow rate would make the positioning error insignificant.

            From my short exchange I think he’s a nice guy but I also think he is wrong. It was in fact the high water flow rate combined with the obviously incorrect placement of the thermocouple which enabled the whole trick to work.

            It would have been a simple matter to run the exact same test again but with the positioning corrected and the flow rate slowed. It was a simple, easy and quick modification to a test which had already been set up and run. If that was too difficult then just poke a simple laboratory thermometer in the rubber output hose for verification of the thermocouple reading.
            Was it ever done?
            Of course not. Too busy,.. and no time for that sort of clownery.

            That same test with those two errors corrected would have proven the case for LENR to the point where this argument would have been settled back in 2011, and yet here we are in 2015 with the point still no closer to being proven.

            Regarding ” unless you have seen the contract between IH and Leodardo you cannot say IH has manufacturing rights. Have you seen the contract?” ;
            Of course I have not seen it,

            All I and everyone else can go on is what Mr. Rossi reports and the language used to report it. And from that it appears something has changed in the relationship.
            That is not an infallible declaration on my part. It’s just as it appears to me. I could be wrong, but at this point I don’t think so.
            But the fact that he astutely avoids any question on the matter indicates there may be some confirmation to the observation.

      • Paul

        EFA has manufacturing and commercial right for Europe. You can ask to the Swedish licensee, if you don’t know.

  • This is very sad development.

    I’m slowly understanding why Brian Ahern ceased to do further Hot-Cat replications and why he’s sure that Rossi and all involved with positive replication results either fooled us or made measurement errors.

    All this to and fro, back and forth…makes me lose hope in Rossi.

    • Paul

      “Why he is sure…” this seems a your idea, not Ahern’s. As far as I know, he has never told or written this about Rossi or the other competitors. If you have a link to such statement, it would be welcome…

      • Write him an email. It’s his oppinion, and that’s why he is silent after his first efforts of a parkhomov replication.

        • Paul

          Probably he was not able to replicate the exceptional results obtained by Rossi but discrediting the work of many other independent groups is a non-sense from a serious person, probably he’s only a frustrated scientist. like I know also Piantelli is… I understand both them…

          • Jarea1

            i agree with barty.
            It has been a long time ago and we should have had already more than smoke. MFMP has tried and tried but still no clear reproduction of the effect, at least, not to the scales of what Rossi says.
            Please, i think we should demand more facts and not just blind faith.
            Why haven´t we heard about any replication from Sweden? ,
            Why only Parkhomov and russian colleages together with the Chinesse (with not peer review papers) have been able to replicate it? Why nobody else on this world?.

            Besides, What i want to say is that Rossi has enough money ensured with his strategy already. If he has something about cold fussion, then he should release it for the sake of the society and the polluted earth.
            If he has something, then each year he delays his discovery, he participate actively in the pollution on the earth by doing nothing. Why does he want to have all over control?.
            is it all about having all the money of the cold fussion market?

            For me is very strange that something so big as cold fusion with COP (at least) >3 has not been cracking the whole world. On the other hand if we exclude pure research, what we have is a man and two company names IH and Leonardo Corp. One of recent creation without web and Leonardo created for this simple purpose. Really? No big companies here? , no big investions yet? wtf

          • attaboy

            I’m with Jarea and barty. But I’ve stated at least a few times in the past that its very strange that commercialization and utilization of Rossi’s lenr technology has not well under way by now. The world needs it so badly to replace the great damage done by fossil fuel energy. As I’ve also said, the most likely reason for the lack of progress can be traced back to protecting the interests of the rich and powerful, whether they be industrial, political, military or academic.

          • Omega Z

            Just Realize that this is not a technology accepted by the mainstream.

            I believe the statement- exceptional claims require exceptional proof is a stupid unfounded statement that should be relegated to the trash heap. Reasonable proof is all that is required with any claims Exceptional or Not.

            Unfortunately, It does appear that exceptional proof is the only thing that will satisfy the mainstream. Thus a successful industrial pilot plant is necessary. You wont see big investments until there is a product capable of real world use. If Rossi’s pilot plant is successful, then you will see movement.

            As for Rossi providing more details. This technology will require Billions in investments. Considering the Risks involved, Some IP protection will be necessary. IP that Rossi would never get if he provides to much Info. Thus, giving this info would delay any useful development of this technology until someone devised a protectable process.

            Most think Investors are just greedy & want to make to much profit. It’s not so simple. There not just concerned with making a ROI, but losing the upfront investment itself. Would you invest a Billion$ knowing you will lose all of it.

            Note: Bill Gates just committed 2 Billion$ of his personal funds(Not his charity foundations) in new exotic energy technologies. This is not aimed at wind/solar but for things such as LENR. This is a substantial commitment as of it’s size. About 3 zero’s beyond then the norm…

          • Paul

            Parkhomov and the Chinese are professional experimenters, so it is not strange that they obtain results. This does not means that ALL the ohers, more or less professional, can obtain the same results. Consider that the seutp and the powder used by MFMP is different. All this matters! Ahern cannot hope to obtain the result of Rossi replicanting Parkomov, this is also logically ridicolous…

        • Obvious

          Perhaps he should revisit his strategy. Rossi said that Ahern was the closest competitor when Ahern was doing his own thing. Building variants of Parkhomov, etc., may be going in the wrong direction. In particular Rossi mentioned his “preparation”.

          I’m not sure that Parkhomov has been properly replicated (using faithfully at least one his designs that supposedly worked). Vasilenko was closest, but used Al2O3 tubes instead of mullite (Note Rossi has used cordierite also in the past, so who knows if mullite is important).

          The furnace plan by Ahern was a good idea, but maybe the original design, flaws and all, needs to be replicated and then try new fuels, furnaces, etc.
          It is peculiar that only Asian continent dwellers seem to be able to pull it off besides Rossi. There is some possibility there is something different they are doing, either ingredients, power supply, …?

          Time to build a parameter spreadsheet/matrix and fill it in for all the failed and successful attempts to see if anything clearly is being missed, I guess.

    • MorganMck

      “Crickets…” In the future either provide a link or don’t ascribe your own ideas to others plase.

    • Omega Z

      Barty

      Measurement errors are always a possibility when you are uncertain of
      the methodology & bumbling in the dark. Especially when working with
      low levels of energy.

      However, When working with input’s of 1Kw & output of 6Kw, Error
      seems extremely improbable. An even more improbable Error would be SSM
      when power is cut off & an hour latter your still boiling water.

      As to Replication teams having trouble getting regular & consistent
      results, I would sum it up to the Attitude that it must be easy. One
      thing Rossi has been very consistent about when people mention it must
      be simple or easy. His response may be something like, Possibly it is
      easy for you. For me it is very complex. He never strays from this. It’s
      a complex technology.

      You also find the simplicity mind set here at ECW.

      As soon as someone “appears” to get any positive result, the tongues
      start wagging that within a year everyone will be building their own.
      I’ll skip the discussion about all that’s wrong with this.

      The Truth is, If Parkhomov can repeatedly replicate the Lugano test
      obtaining COP>3, it is just a start. Perhaps if he studies &
      works real hard on it for 2 or 3 years, He would catch up to the point
      Rossi is at today.

      As to MFMP & the multiple teams they support trying to replicate the
      Lugano test which includes Brian Ahern. I state this with NO Animosity
      what so ever.

      Tho they are open source & collaborative, They Do Compete with each
      other whether consciously or not. It is just human nature. I’ve observed
      multiple tests here at ECW & everyone gets a couple things right.
      But most of the test is not. There are to many shortcuts &
      deviations from the Lugano test. This is due to both impatience & of
      a competitive nature to lead the pack. I would say from my observations
      that if you used the best practices of each of the tests to date, A
      single good test could probably be achieved.

      And whats with the spectroanalysis after each test of only a few hours.
      If a test doesn’t last 7/10 days, This is a waste of time &
      resources. Any deviation is likely to be well within error.

  • This is very sad development.

    I’m slowly understanding why Brian Ahern ceased to do further Hot-Cat replications and why he’s sure that Rossi and all involved with positive replication results either fooled us or made measurement errors.

    All this to and fro, back and forth…makes me lose hope in Rossi.

    • Paul

      “Why he is sure…” this seems a your idea, not Ahern’s. As far as I know, he has never told or written this about Rossi or the other competitors. If you have a link to such statement, it would be welcome…

      • Write him an email. It’s his oppinion, and that’s why he is silent after his first efforts of a parkhomov replication.

        • Paul

          Probably he was not able to replicate the exceptional results obtained by Rossi but discrediting the work of many other independent groups is a non-sense from a serious person, probably he’s only a frustrated scientist. like I know also Piantelli is… I understand both them…

          • Jarea

            i agree with barty.
            It has been a long time ago and we should have had already more than smoke. MFMP has tried and tried but still no clear reproduction of the effect, at least, not to the scales of what Rossi says.
            Please, i think we should demand more facts and not just blind faith.
            Why haven´t we heard about any replication from Sweden? ,
            Why only Parkhomov and russian colleages together with the Chinesse (with not peer review papers) have been able to replicate it? Why nobody else on this world?.

            Besides, What i want to say is that Rossi has enough money ensured with his strategy already. If he has something about cold fussion, then he should release it for the sake of the society and the polluted earth.
            If he has something, then each year he delays his discovery, he participate actively in the pollution on the earth by doing nothing. Why does he want to have all over control?.
            is it all about having all the money of the cold fussion market?

            For me is very strange that something so big as cold fusion with COP (at least) >3 has not been cracking the whole world. On the other hand if we exclude pure research, what we have is a man and two company names IH and Leonardo Corp. One of recent creation without web and Leonardo created for this simple purpose. Really? No big companies here? , no big investions yet? wtf

          • attaboy

            I’m with Jarea and barty. But I’ve stated at least a few times in the past that its very strange that commercialization and utilization of Rossi’s lenr technology has not been well under way by now. The world needs it so badly to replace the great damage done by fossil fuel energy. As I’ve also said, the most likely reason for the lack of progress can be traced back to protecting the interests of the rich and powerful, whether they be industrial, political, military or academic.

          • Omega Z

            Just Realize that this is not a technology accepted by the mainstream.

            I believe the statement- exceptional claims require exceptional proof is a stupid unfounded statement that should be relegated to the trash heap. Reasonable proof is all that is required with any claims Exceptional or Not.

            Unfortunately, It does appear that exceptional proof is the only thing that will satisfy the mainstream. Thus a successful industrial pilot plant is necessary. You wont see big investments until there is a product capable of real world use. If Rossi’s pilot plant is successful, then you will see movement.

            As for Rossi providing more details. This technology will require Billions in investments. Considering the Risks involved, Some IP protection will be necessary. IP that Rossi would never get if he provides to much Info. Thus, giving this info would delay any useful development of this technology until someone devised a protectable process.

            Most think Investors are just greedy & want to make to much profit. It’s not so simple. There not just concerned with making a ROI, but losing the upfront investment itself. Would you invest a Billion$ knowing you will lose all of it.

            Note: Bill Gates just committed 2 Billion$ of his personal funds(Not his charity foundations) in new exotic energy technologies. This is not aimed at wind/solar but for things such as LENR. This is a substantial commitment as of it’s size. About 3 zero’s beyond then the norm…

          • Paul

            Parkhomov and the Chinese are professional experimenters, so it is not strange that they obtain results. This does not means that ALL the ohers, more or less professional, can obtain the same results. Consider that the seutp and the powder used by MFMP is different. All this matters! Ahern cannot hope to obtain the result of Rossi replicanting Parkomov, this is also logically ridicolous…

        • Obvious

          Perhaps he should revisit his strategy. Rossi said that Ahern was the closest competitor when Ahern was doing his own thing. Building variants of Parkhomov, etc., may be going in the wrong direction. In particular Rossi mentioned Ahern’s “preparation”. To me, this indicated his grinding and bake-out process, but I’m guessing.

          I’m not sure that Parkhomov has been properly replicated (using faithfully at least one his designs that supposedly worked). Vasilenko was closest, but used Al2O3 tubes instead of mullite (Note Rossi has used cordierite also in the past, so who knows if mullite is important).

          The furnace plan by Ahern was a good idea, but maybe the original design, flaws and all, needs to be replicated and then try new fuels, furnaces, etc.
          It is peculiar that only Asian continent dwellers seem to be able to pull it off besides Rossi. There is some possibility there is something different they are doing, either ingredients, power supply, …?

          Time to build a parameter spreadsheet/matrix and fill it in for all the failed and successful attempts to see if anything clearly is being missed, I guess.

    • MorganMck

      “Crickets…” In the future either provide a link or don’t ascribe your own ideas to others plase.

    • Omega Z

      Barty

      Measurement errors are always a possibility when you are uncertain of
      the methodology & bumbling in the dark. Especially when working with
      low levels of energy.

      However, When working with input’s of 1Kw & output of 6Kw, Error
      seems extremely improbable. An even more improbable Error would be SSM
      when power is cut off & an hour latter your still boiling water.

      As to Replication teams having trouble getting regular & consistent
      results, I would sum it up to the Attitude that it must be easy. One
      thing Rossi has been very consistent about when people mention it must
      be simple or easy. His response may be something like, Possibly it is
      easy for you. For me it is very complex. He never strays from this. It’s
      a complex technology.

      You also find the simplicity mind set here at ECW.

      As soon as someone “appears” to get any positive result, the tongues
      start wagging that within a year everyone will be building their own.
      I’ll skip the discussion about all that’s wrong with this.

      The Truth is, If Parkhomov can repeatedly replicate the Lugano test
      obtaining COP>3, it is just a start. Perhaps if he studies &
      works real hard on it for 2 or 3 years, He would catch up to the point
      Rossi is at today.

      As to MFMP & the multiple teams they support trying to replicate the
      Lugano test which includes Brian Ahern. I state this with NO Animosity
      what so ever.

      Tho they are open source & collaborative, They Do Compete with each
      other whether consciously or not. It is just human nature. I’ve observed
      multiple tests here at ECW & everyone gets a couple things right.
      But most of the test is not. There are to many shortcuts &
      deviations from the Lugano test. This is due to both impatience & of
      a competitive nature to lead the pack. I would say from my observations
      that if you used the best practices of each of the tests to date, A
      single good test could probably be achieved.

      And whats with the spectroanalysis after each test of only a few hours.
      If a test doesn’t last 7/10 days, This is a waste of time &
      resources. Any deviation is likely to be well within error.

  • hempenearth

    Industrial Heat has commercial (and I think manufacturing) rights to North America and China. Roger Green has commercial rights to Australia, Japan, and assorted others not in Europe. Hydrofusion has commercial rights in parts of Europe.

    • BillH

      I checked out the Hydrofusion website, there doesn’t seem to have been much action except for the plugging of a book over the last 2 years. I did however find this link http://ecat.com/ecat-energy-cost-calculator which may be somewhat interesting, but I assume it’s out of date.

  • hempenearth

    Industrial Heat has commercial (and I think manufacturing) rights to North America and China. Roger Green has commercial rights to Australia, Japan, and assorted others not in Europe. Hydrofusion has commercial rights in parts of Europe.
    Edit: Replace “…rights to North America and China” with “…rights to the Americas and China”

    • BillH

      I checked out the Hydrofusion website, there doesn’t seem to have been much action except for the plugging of a book over the last 2 years. I did however find this link http://ecat.com/ecat-energy-cost-calculator which may be somewhat interesting, but I assume it’s out of date.

  • clovis ray

    Hi, billH
    Not necessarily, he did have a clause that said he was to be the lead science person for H/I, remember, as well as being paid a huge amount of money. I would say he is setting pretty, in the cat bird seat, right where he belongs, I say he is the only one that can handle the pressure that the E-cat brings,

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    I want to make sure what you are insinuating, you are saying there is no
    such thing as a working E-Cat, the plant Rossi has been describing is a figment of his imagination, everyone from Defkalion to Lugano scientists, the Lugano testing itself faked, Industrial Heat, Industrial Heat’s attorneys and attorneys of all licencees, Mats Lewan, everyone witnessing the multiple e-cat tests have all been duped. If this is not your intent, please be clear.

  • clovis ray

    Hi, guys.

    I personally ask Dr. R about what had happen, regarding I/H, When the news was first released,

    his answer was this, –

    November 29th, 2012 at 11:53 PM

    Dear Clovis Alan Ray:

    We made a contract regarding our Intellectual
    property and now we are working together with our US Partner.

    Warm Regards,

    A.R.

  • AlbertN

    Yesterday on Rossi’s blog JONP I asked this question:

    August 6th, 2015 at 12:33 PM
    Dear Dr.Rossi,
    I am glad to hear that the repairs have gone well and all is back to normal. I have a few questions.

    1- How many of your team had to be waken up? How many had to lose a good night sleep? Hehe.
    2- You have praised your team many times. In the last six months has it grown/reduced/same in size?
    3- You have mentioned in the past that you are the Chief Scientist for Industrial Heat. Is this correct?
    Warm Regards,
    AlbertN

    My question was edited and #3 was removed. His answer:

    August 6th, 2015 at 1:54 PM
    Albert N.:
    1- two
    2- same
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    Obviously his relationship with Industrial Heat has changed somewhat. In an interview Tom Darden mentions that he is the ‘primary funder’ of Industrial Heat. So he has a lot at stake. If it turns out that Tom Darden / IH have walked away then this is NOT GOOD. One does not simply discard one of the potentially biggest discoveries of all time.

    All we can do is speculate until further info is available. Maybe someone can ask Rossi or IH to clarify this but it is doubtful you will get an answer.

    • kasom

      “One does not simply discard one of the potentially biggest discoveries of all time.”
      I fully agree!

  • Patrick Ellul

    I have just asked the following to Rossi. Awaiting reply.

    Patrick Ellul

    Your comment is awaiting moderation.

    August 7th, 2015 at 5:49 PM

    Dear Andrea,

    It has been over 1.5 years since JT Vaughn announced in a press release that Industrial Heat LLC had acquired “the intellectual property and licensing rights to Rossi’s LENR device”.

    1) Were those IP rights restricted to just one type of e-cat? (for example just the low temperature e-cat)
    2) Has the commercial relationship between IH and Leonardo Corp changed since then?
    3) Is your R&D team employed by Leonardo Corp or by another entity?
    4) Does IH LLC control Leonardo Corp in any way?

    It is understandable if you have to reply with “It’s confidential” to some of the questions.

    Thank you very much for your hard work and dedication.

    Best regards,
    Patrick

    • Patrick Ellul

      The question was unsurprisingly refused by Rossi. I can tell because the blog does not list it as “awaiting moderation” anymore.

      • kasom

        Another catastrophic hint in the row, the hidden inventor drives me crazy.

        Suddenly 250kW- tigers but cats, hot-cats 3.5kW as the basis for the home version, extreme ssm durations, but still no product sold………

  • Uncle Bob

    From the Rossi blog;

    August 7th, 2015 at 5:10 PM
    Dr Andrea Rossi:
    1- can you confirm if Leonardo Corporation holds totally the Intellectual Property of the so called Rossi Effect?
    ANSWER – YES

    2- did Leonardo Corporation sell the IP to any Licensee for some territory?
    ANSWER -NO

    3- did Leonardo Corporation make agreements to sell licenses for the manufacturing and/or sell the E-Cats for limited territories?
    ANSWER -YES

    Well, that’s certainly clear enough.
    I suppose all we can do is wait for a reaction from IH.
    But I think the money has already stopped, or if not, after that declaration, certainly will now.

    I wonder why IH paid 12 million for something which was being offered by Roger Green for so much less. I think he only paid 400,000 for license rights to half of the planet and I though that was expensive.
    It just goes to show how variable the price is for Intellectual Property rights.

    • Sanjeev

      I remember Rossi saying that his partners have made an E-Cat independently, without any help from himself. That hinted towards a complete tech transfer.
      Since its now clear that no IP was transferred, the press release by IH needs an update. Perhaps only a limited know how was transferred for some purposes such as manufacturing, and they(IH) do not own the IP.

  • Sanjeev

    I remember Rossi saying that his partners have made an E-Cat independently, without any help from himself. That hinted towards a complete tech transfer.
    Since its now clear that no IP was transferred, the press release by IH needs an update. Perhaps only a limited know how was transferred for some purposes such as manufacturing, and they(IH) do not own the IP.

  • Clearly something has changed in the business arrangements and Rossi doesn’t want to or can’t talk about it.

    The noise about the plant has been nearly 100% positive, to include Darden showing up at ICCF and hinting all was well, full speed ahead. So Industrial Heat walking away from Rossi and Leonardo doesn’t seem to add up.

    Speculating, I think what has happened is one of two things:
    1 – Industrial Heat has found a more favorable path to commercialization either through their own efforts based on the E-Cat IP they had at least for awhile, or through a separate investment like Brillouin Energy. So they turned Rossi and the E-Cat loose or compartmentalized them to focus on heat plants while they are off doing everything else.

    2 – Despite Rossi’s positive reports and the positive background info we have received the plant has not performed up to expectations/contract (or perhaps IH failed to meet a financial target) and the legal agreement between Leonardo and Industrial Heat has been terminated for cause.

    I have a problem wrapping my head around the second one if the plant is working because the partnership seemed solid and if there were money to be made any bumps would be easily smoothed over. I also have a problem believing the first if the plant is working. That would mean that IH or one of their other partners has lapped Rossi and forced him to the sidelines. Seems unlikely technically from what little information we are given.

    So I think it’s a possibility things have gone sideways on Rossi and Industrial Heat has decided to concentrate their efforts elsewhere. That would be awful. But even then I would never count Rossi out. His determination is a force of nature.

    Another possibility is that they are just intentionally sowing confusion or perhaps they have reorganized things cosmetically to ensure that Rossi is recognized for his incredible achievements by having his company’s name be prominently associated with the technology.

    Sure would be nice to get word from IH about what’s happening.

    • Rossi says this AM that people from IH are still on site at the plant as well as from Leonardo.

      Somehow the emphasis has shifted from IH to Leonardo but we don’t know why or how yet.

      • Frank Acland

        Question: in the Team making the tests on the 1 MW E-Cat in the factory of the customer of IH are there both persons of Industrial Heat and of Leonardo Corporation working together?

        Andrea Rossi
        August 8th, 2015 at 7:44 AM
        Patrick Ellul:
        Obviously, yes.
        Warm Regards,
        A.R.

        • Patrick Ellul

          @ecatworld:disqus Just a note on this question that I asked, It looked nothing like that. Rossi re-wrote my question to make it answerable. Does he ever do that to you too?

          • Frank Acland

            Yes, he’s occasionally done that to me.

          • Mats002

            Interesting… You are choosen by him – but he is still in control.
            On the other hand everybody make mistakes, Rossi included. Wonder what he regret and would like to change in his statements?

          • Frank Acland

            He’s occasionally spammed questions of mine, too.

            I guess there are some subjects he considers off-limits for the JONP

          • AlbertN

            Do you remember how you originally phrased your question? Curious to know what part is taboo.

          • Patrick Ellul

            I asked effectively who owns the customer relationship, IH or LC.

    • Steve

      Another potential is that a larger player has entered into the fray with the purpose, (and subsequent approval by all involved) to buy out IH for their rights. IH would cooperate if the price is right and LC would also, as it could mean greater distribution, and speed to market capacity. This could also explain the silence from IH in regards to LC’s seemingly taking the lead.

      • Yes, I guess that would be a best case scenario and it does pass the common sense test. Larger entities would surely try to step in once the technology proved out. Good thinking.

    • Uncle Bob

      ICCF19 was in April. This is now August, four months later.
      The current test had only run for two months at the time of ICCF19.
      A lot of things can become apparent in four months to change relationships, commercial or otherwise.

      Most of the above reasoning is based on the assumption that the plant is actually working with a provable positive COP. The only feedback we have on whether the COP is positive or not is what Mr. Rossi says, and lately, even he seems to be stressing the “possibly negative” result even more.

      If the current test is being conducted in the factory of a customer of IH, as initially reported, the customer would now have an idea of the efficiency (COP) and consequently, so would IH.
      If the results are negative, IH might not be happy to continue a test which has already had six months to show a positive result. That’s reasonable. Further operation of the same hardware will most likely produce the same result.
      Yes,. I know,. all speculation, but that’s all we can do at this stage.
      An official announcement would help.

      • Uncle Bob

        Pardon me replying to my own post, but it appears Mr. Rossi has just announced an even better technology (August 9th) which enables “direct production” , so I suppose all the old technology, along with the 1MW plant under test, is now made obsolete.
        So now it really doesn’t matter whether the results for the 1MW plant were positive or negative.

  • Steve

    Hi folks, a new contributor to the conversation here, and one that is also confused as to the wither the right to sell or market the yet to be commercially viable technology derives. I can mention that a recent email response to my expressing interest in the acquisition of several 1MW plants to both IH and LC only came back from a Peter La Terra of LC, indicating that they expect to be able to sell the plants in 4 months. A limited DD on my part indicates that Mr. La Terra is associated to the Swedish entity associated with LC. I can also state that several calls and e-mails to IH and Mr. JT Vaughn directly have gone unanswered.
    Now, granted I’m quite sure both IH and LC are inundated with requests and would have quite a chore in substantiating interest, but my messages I would think would have been quite compelling, to at least garner a response! (I.e. Power Purchase Agreements totaling 22MW from Municipalities in North America and funding in tow.)

    Additionally, I’ve requested now numerous times in e-mail and phone messages a conversation with anyone involved to no avail.
    Read what you will in this… but paint me as (at least) frustrated.

  • AdrianAshfield

    If Rossi had sold the IP he would never get much of a return. As it is, he will get a cut from every E-Cat sold. There maybe some side deal with Industrial Heat for them funding the current 1MW plant and providing help in his further research.

    I don’t think there is much doubt left about whether the E-Cat works. The customer is using the steam and a third party is monitoring the amount. If it weren’t working the standby 15 kW E-Cats would have been brought into operation. Then Aftenposten writes they got an expert third party report that the plant is working well.

    What is not clear is how Rossi will protect his IP without a patent. Just stating they will be sold cheaply enough to avoid competition doesn’t sound like a solid defense. Rossi is smart enough that I expect he has a plan. Maybe apply for a patent showing the magic ingredient, at the last moment before going public. He could bring a working model into the patent office if need be and they don’t believe him.

  • AdrianAshfield

    If Rossi had sold the IP he would never get much of a return. As it is, he will get a cut from every E-Cat sold. There maybe some side deal with Industrial Heat for them funding the current 1MW plant and providing help in his further research.

    I don’t think there is much doubt left about whether the E-Cat works. The customer is using the steam and a third party is monitoring the amount. If it weren’t working the standby 15 kW E-Cats would have been brought into operation. Then Aftenposten writes they got an expert third party report that the plant is working well.

    What is not clear is how Rossi will protect his IP without a patent. Just stating they will be sold cheaply enough to avoid competition doesn’t sound like a solid defense. Rossi is smart enough that I expect he has a plan. Maybe apply for a patent showing the magic ingredient, at the last moment before going public. He could bring a working model into the patent office if need be and they don’t believe him.

    I don’t buy that it has taken an unusually long time to reach a commercial model. You can’t tell how well it works, fuel life etc., without running it at least a year.

  • telessar

    The invocation of “IP” is pretty weird. He has a patent on something in Italy, but it doesn’t look like he has any protection in the rest of the world. There is no automatic right to IP in a process or device – you have to have a patent.

    Also, under the AIA in the US, he is probably already out of luck getting additional patents on his device… there is a year grace period on public disclosures, but the “for sale” bar will likely prevent him from getting a patent on anything that is currently incorporated into his 1mw plant.

  • LCD

    It sounds like a standard investor/startup relationship.