Piantelli European Patent Revoked after Challenge by Leonardo Corporation

Thanks to AlainCo for posting here and on the LENR-Forum about a document from the European Patent Office that shows that the patent EP2368252 for ” “Method and Apparatus for Generating Energy by Nuclear Reactions of Hydrogen Adsobred by Orbital Capture on a Nanocrystalline Structure of a Metal” invented by Francisco Piantelli has been revoked because of a challenge.

There is lots of documentation involved in this challenge which was made by the Bilicki Law Firm, P.C. of Jamestown, New York, and I haven’t looked through much of it yet, but they have challenged the patent on a number of points. See here for a list of all the documentation involved: https://register.epo.org/application?number=EP09806118&lng=en&tab=doclist

Here’s the page that shows the revocation. The box is checked next to the reason that reads “The European patent is revoked because at least one ground for opposition prejudices the maintenance of the European Patent (Art. 101(2) EPC)”

piantellirevoke

I have to confess I am really not familiar with patent law, and it will take someone more familiar with patent legalities to determine all that has happened here, and what it all means — but it does seem that this challenge has been successful, at least for now.

UPDATE: Thanks to Chris for pointing out this document which contains the challenge which comes from Leonardo Corporation: http://www.e-catworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Patentchallenge.pdf (I put all the pages into one document for easier reading)

  • pg

    It might be Rossi’s challenge

  • Bob

    Many have commented over the past two years about patent rights, prior art and precedence.
    .
    Now the patent wars may have started!
    .
    This is sad in many ways.
    1) The lawyers will make the most money and for nothing that actually produces anything. 🙁
    (Yes, I know lawyers are needed, but that does not mean I like them. Chemotherapy is needed too, but it still makes me sick)
    2) This could possibly hurt the introduction of Cold Fusion / LENR. Due to lawsuits, a company may be prevented from selling working LENR units. Without commercial sales, the general acceptance of LENR could be greatly delayed.
    3) Fighting lawsuits can bankrupt inventors. Even though they may have something, they may not be able to bring it to market. This has happened numerous times before.
    4) Often, large corporations will win the patent wars simply due to their financial might. This could be bad for LENR, depending on who the corporation is and what their motive is.
    on the other hand…
    1) It might bring the technology more public awareness.
    2) The Chinese, Koreans, and Russians will simply start making units that much faster while the western corporations battle it out in court.

    • Hi all

      In reply to Bob on point 2.2

      People and companies in the west will still build it, is just they have to pay the licence fee and or royalties to the inventor/holders of the patent.

      The problem comes if after you pay the cost of the license or the royalty, that the inventor/holders of the patent can make the same product cheaper. So your profit margins are smaller.

      All Rossi has to do is keep it cheaper than his competitors. Then Leonardo IH etc. can gain market dominance in terms of market share.

      Kind Regards walker

    • Omega Z

      Oh My Lord, Bob

      You worry so much about things that don’t concern you that your arteries have got to look like a dried up shriveled up fishing worm laid out on a hot sidewalk. Things are going to happen the way there going to happen no matter what you think, say or do.

      The Chinese, Koreans, and Russians. This isn’t the wild west. Tho sometimes it may not appear like it, It’s still a civilized world with rules of engagement. IP’s are still recognized & there are penalties for disregarding them. Take a chill pill, relax & enjoy the movie.
      Where’s my popcorn?
      Can’t watch a Drama without my popcorn…

      • GreenWin

        Well said OZ. Catastrophizing has two parts:

        Part 1: Predicting a negative outcome.
        Part 2: Jumping to the conclusion that if the negative outcome did in fact happen, it would be a catastrophe.

  • HS61AF91

    IH’s lawyers sure burned a fusion hole in that Johnny-come-lately attempt. Way to go, Rossi & Co.! Get that robot production line fired up!

  • builditnow

    It could be that a patent challenge has to be made within a limited time of becoming aware of the opposing patent. If true, this would force Rossi’s hand to act even if he did not want to.
    Someone with patent experience can comment.

    IH and Rossi will need everything they have to prevent the current wealthy companies and individuals from taking LENR away from them. Will IH and Rossi keep to their plan of producing E-Cats at such a low price that competitors will find it uneconomical to compete.

    A low entry price could be necessary along with patents.

    LENR+ will be too strategic for countries to allow patents to get in the way. Once LENR+ becomes a race, any attempt to limit access to LENR via patents could very likely be ignored. Patents could work if LENR is freely available at a cheap price with distributed manufacturing locations.

    • Bob

      “…such a low price that competitors…..”
      .
      I truly believe this is folly. I cannot think of one instance where this succeeded, by the originator of a product that involved major corporations. Especially something like the energy sector. Bubble gum maybe…. nuclear reactors no.
      .
      Most of the components of an LENR reactor seem to be relatively low tech and already mass produced. The only thing preventing wide spread replication now is the “secret sauce”, which also appears to consist of fairly mundane elements. It is just the combination and preparation that is missing.
      .
      Will IH / Rossi be able to produce programmable controllers more cost effective that the ones massed produced today? No. Will they be able to produce the heating wire, alumina tubing, stainless water pipe, various fittings less expensively. Certainly not!
      Will their labor be a fraction of what China’s is? No. Making the reactor in China will only give China the secrets that much faster.
      .
      No, the only Ace that Rossi has is the “secret sauce” formula. Once this secret is out, the major chemical companies will leave him in the dust.
      .
      Only patent protection has a chance of guarding him and then as others have stated… China, Russia and many other countries will simply ignore the patents.
      .
      I hope him the best. I hope he reaps much reward for his efforts in this invention. But producing at a mass economy of scale will be utter failure! No question.

      • GreenWin

        Bob, you forget private brands from KMart, Wallmart, Target etc. These guys knock off products in China for pennies against name brands. And are wildly successful.

        Rossi has big players on his side, Not all from the material world. China just signed a broad based IP agreement with Obama. Russia and India have their own LENR programs in place. Like the combustion engine, everyone will get a piece of cake.

        • Bob

          However, Kmart, WalMart, Target etc. do not make a single item. They simply resell them. That is because THEY CANNOT make the items as cheap as the existing, experienced manufacturers. .
          .
          You can buy Apple products at Walmart, but Walmart does not make them. Why? Patent protection. You still pay the hefty price of Apple products at Walmart. Why? Patent protection prevents others from making Apple compatible phones / tablets.
          .
          You can buy a number of Android based products from different manufacturers at Walmart. All at a much lower price. They do almost everything that an Apple tablet will do. Why the lower cost? Because
          they were produced by a number of manufacturers that have a much lower production cost.
          .
          So can Rossi develop a name brand like Apple to protect him? Probably not in the heating market. No, the only thing he can do is try to protect himself by patents. If he patents the eCat and someone else develops a LENR reactor that is different enough to not infringe on that patent, (such as the Android tablet does not infringe on Apple) then there will be many LENR heaters available at a much lower cost..
          .
          Apple and Nike were successful at keeping market share due to brand name. But remember, Apple has only 10% of the PC market. I am not sure about the phone market, but it is losing ground all the time.
          .
          Economy of production scale will not protect Rossi.

      • builditnow

        Bob, a low starting price is a challenge, I agree … but …
        Automated manufacturing has similar costs regardless of location and the E-Cats look ideal for automated manufacturing.

        What I hear is that robotic production is starting to be cheaper that manual cheap labor in more and more cases. I recently read where a Chinese company created a fully automated factory to make Chinese cell phone. Labor reduced from about 600 to about 60 with a target of around 20 (thus creating other issues of unemployment etc. for a lively discussion elsewhere). So, even in China, fully automated manufacturing is starting to beat the manual equivalent.
        This means that soon, more and more factories will have about the same manufacturing costs no matter where they are located.
        Rossi says he will license manufacturing.
        Rossi needs time to get all this worked out, could be some years.

        WANT YOUR “NEW FIRE” NOW?
        If you want your “new fire” earlier than Rossi’s schedule, support MFMP, other open researchers and or run your own experiments. Once the “secret sauce” is discovered, it’s likely we can all make our own new fire heater.

        How to help?
        – Money, ideas, equipment, fund raising are all required.
        – A list of the next experiments to be carried out needs to be managed somewhere online.
        – Experimenters need help in all sorts of ways, get connected and find out how to help them.
        – A way to connect experimenters that are close to each other could be useful. Pick a task suited to you and do your bit.

  • Daniel Maris

    The super-skeps are going to hate this! lol

    • Hi all

      Yes now they know it is serious, they already became quite hysterical because Tom Darden has started making the market aware, and the major companies are saying they have done the due diligence and it works.

      Now we have the lawyers and the Patent Office are saying it is real enough to fight in court over who owns it. The sceptopaths don’t even have a fig-leaf to cover their nakedness, the pseudo sceptics will probably disappear as the game is up for them.

      Kind Regards walker

      • Omega Z

        “they already became quite hysterical”

        I agree, every time something positive comes to light, they seem to go into overdrive.

      • Albert D. Kallal

        Funny how the skeptics are saying LENR is not real, yet we already seeing fights over some technology that is supposedly not real!
        Regards
        Albert k,

  • So the Patent wars begin. There will be decades of this.

    • Bob Greenyer

      One needs to be careful opening this pandoras box of litigation. It is interesting to see that Rossi et al felt they needed to challenge the Piantelli patent.

      But how does the now lapsed patents and other publications (prior art etc) from Reginald Little from early 2000s, and Cannon (priority 1989) affect attempts to patent the New Fire. Between these two there are very early demonstrations of

      – Magnetic stimulation
      – Electrostatics
      – Impulsive Action with short current pulses
      – use of powders
      – use of catalysts
      – use of transition metals
      – creation and use of hydrogen ions
      – use of light elements, including Li
      – orbital capture
      – consideration of importance of valance
      – gas systems

      In fact the Cannon patent alone is pretty much DGT.

      • Hi all

        In reply to Bob Greenyer on the matter of “…be careful opening this pandoras box of litigation.”

        That is how patents work, if you do not defend them, then legally they become moot. And you can loose a patent on the fact you did not defend it. You have only a limited time in which to challenge an infringement.

        These Patent wars were inevitable. No major invention has ever existed without them. There is money in the inventions, people inevitably try to claim they can sell the inventors invention without paying the inventor, same as people pirate music. All you can do as the artist or inventor is use the small amount of legal protections you have to prevent others from making more money off your work, than you do.

        Rossi will inevitably license, so others can use the invention, that is after all what the patent is about, disclosure to enable the invention to be spread around at a license fee payment or royalty to the inventor.

        This is going to be a big pie, with lots for lots of industrialists to eat. Most the people here have a head start on a coming second industrial revolution, and a fair number of them will be successful in finding opportunities in an LENR age.

        Kind Regards walker

        • Omega Z

          “Rossi will inevitably license, so others can use the invention, that is after all what the patent is about”

          From what I’ve read, that was precisely purpose of U.S. Patent Law.
          A little guy with a great Idea & no means to produce it can license it.
          The alternative was tell some one who has the means to produce it & hope he shares the profits. Patents are meant to guarantee the little guy gets his share for his intellectual work.

        • Bob Greenyer

          Yes.

          In Europe – nine months (see para 64), and can be done by anybody (except the person the patent is granted to) In the US 3 months.

          http://goo.gl/cg8rVh

          The fact that it was done so soon is encouraging, because it suggest that Rossi et al want to move forward quickly.

          Any prior art or publications could be used to challenge patent. In both cases – there are options for the rejected patent holder to offer amendments to address the challenges. Over the next few months we may find out some real juicy bits of IP as patents are clarified.

          My main point is that by challenging the patent, Rossi/IH have basically admitted that Piantelli has art that would challenge their ability to operate and licence their patent without prior challenge to Piantelli patent or licensing thereof.

          The challenge is as much respect as could be given to Piantelli, that it had to be done recognises the value/importance of aspects of the patent – it is business though.

          The sad thing here is that if Piantelli had let us openly replicate this year – the main challenge to the patent would be voided. NiCHEnergy in trying to protect their IP, made it difficult to defend. On the contrary, Rossi – by first letting IH build reactors through knowledge transfer and then by letting the Lugano team test it the reactor so produced, apparently demonstrated the validity of his application and should be rightly commended for this approach. This was a good approach to patenting.

          From ICCF17 day 2, the MFMP has always said that the most important thing is that a new practical primary energy source is realised as fast as possible. History will give credit to those that did the pioneering work regardless of what lawyers do. Opinion can’t change facts and origination cannot be corrected by poor business choices.

    • Mark Underwood

      Or as master Yoda put it, “Begun the Clone War has”.

  • Jarea

    Very assertive when he says on page 7:

    “In this connection, it is respectfully submitted that Piantelli et al. have never got a single watt from other metals, that is different from nickel, making them react with hydrogen.”

  • Omega Z

    “chimney Liner another $1600”
    OMG, I hope that includes Install of your entire heating unit.
    Of course if it made from platinum it’s probably a steel.

    As to the E-cat, I’m sure it will become a licensed affair, but being a new product it will go through some R&D and certification pains. It’s a normal business process. A boiler. A certification process, A hot air furnace, another certification process, etc, etc, etc,

    • Bob Greenyer

      The building I am in was made in 1898, It is very tall and my apartment is on the first floor, it has protected architecture. Combine that with strict new rules on what can be used in Chimneys and the bore of the in place flue and you have the reason for the liner cost.

      A New Fire boiler would not need to breath air or exhaust fumes – greatly simplifying installation and cost thereof.

  • builditnow

    Bob, yes, I’d be happy with quite a crude model right now. Rossi appears to want to license complete units that pass UL etc. in a pretty box at the local store. Some for heating, some for cooling, others for generating electricity etc. etc.

    Instead of waiting for this, I’d like a much more rudimentary MFMP “New Fire” model that I can build myself put to use immediately.

    This requires us all backing the open researchers (see above for what you can do).

  • Kevmo

    Rossi may not be able to win the first round of patent battles but he has a definite head start. Recall that Bill gates had his code for BASIC lifted by hackers early on. But the end result was that his company was recognized as the go-to leaders for writing languages and IBM came knocking on his door…

  • GreenWin

    MORE investors in LENR.

    This patent challenge may be harsh news for Dr. Antoine Guillemin and Tyler van Houwelingen’s LENR Invest fund. This enterprise based in Grand Rapids, MI (LENR Invest LLC) and Switzerland (LENR Invest SA) has unspecified positions in Brillouin, NicheEnergy Srl, and Lenuco. Link to the Grand Rapids Business Journal:

    http://www.grbj.com/articles/83253-investment-fund-adds-italian-company-to-portfolio