Mats Lewan Calls for Group Effort to Get to the Truth on Rossi/IH Affair

Mats Lewan has posted on his An Impossible Invention site a call for a concerted effort among people involved in and following the E-Cat story to join forces in a truth-finding campaign so we can get a clear understanding of what is going on in the story of Andrea Rossi, the E-Cat and Industrial Heat.

The link is here: https://animpossibleinvention.com/2016/04/20/lets-join-forces-to-bring-out-the-truth-on-rossi-ih-affair/

Mats lays out some of the things he has learned from various parties (most of which have been discussed at length here) and ends with this challenge and invitation:

Even if we consider the probability very low for LENR to be possible, I urge that you honestly consider two things:

  • In case it really works, would you like a possible transition to LENR based energy in the world to be governed mostly by the work and actions of lawyers and lobbyists at APCO Worldwide and Jones Day?
  • Admitting that there might be at least a minor possibility that the E-Cat and LENR is valid, on which side would you prefer to be—those who fight for it to be used to get away from fossil fuels and provide cheap and clean energy to everyone on Earth as soon as possible, or those who are trying to stop it, referring to the possibility that Rossi is a fraudster, or at least slow down the transition in order to protect some powerful people’s interests?

Having answered these two questions, you can make up your mind on how you would like to contribute to the outcome of the affair that’s going on. And whatever decision you take, I strongly suggest that we all join forces to bringing out the truth and make this affair and its implications as visible to the world as possible.

I also suggest that all people who are working with replications attempts and believe that they have a positive result, try to validate the result with the help of independent institutions and make them public.

Lastly, I guarantee that I will protect the identity of people who contact me to share sensible information, if that is required. 

I am still puzzled by the numerous apparent contradictions that we are hearing from various sources, and I know I am not alone. One would assume that more will be revealed in the court case, and of course in the ERV report — but for the legal proceedings to play out could take years (e.g. it took 11 years for the US Supreme Court to finally resolve the Writer’s Guild vs. Google suit over Google Books — and I think we are probably dealing with something more important than the Google Books database here).

I hope Mats’ campaign helps uncover more pertinent information. Maybe it will turn out to be a parallel trial — one held in the court of public opinion on the internet.

  • Dr. Mike

    I believe that any concerns of the validity of LENR will be answered in the ERV report, assuming that the report passes peer review on this website. Hopefully all scientific questions that are raised by reviewers will be answered and any errors noted will be corrected. Rossi certainly could use a peer reviewed ERV report in support of his court case.

    • Warthog

      You are making the error of equating the “validity of LENR” with the “validity of Rossi”, which are two completely different things. I think (and have thought all along) that Rossi really has something, but that he has lied frequently in order to mislead others who might be (or become) his competitors.

      • Dr. Mike

        Warthog,
        I agree that Rossi has not always told the truth in an effort to protect his IP, but I still believe a solid ERV report will validate LENR. The total heat energy supplied by the E-cat unit will be in excess of 8,4000,000kW-hr. The customer should clearly know if he only paid for a small fraction of this energy in his electric bill.

  • Bob

    I meant to include below, that on the other hand, I may have completely misread Mats statements and understood them incorrectly. If so, my apologies.

  • Christina

    There are many people who’ve said they’ve seen the E-Cat and reported that it works and there are other people who’ve made remarkable progress in their own labs, so why doubt the existence of the E-Cat/lenr now?

    We are not babes in the woods; we know truth when we are presented with even a small pieces of it.

    Let’s support Rossi.

    • Axil Axil

      The fact that the year long test was completed means that the Rossi system is functional. If the E-Cat produced no COP, the test would not have lasted more than a day. IH tracked the test and they must have had an idea of how large the COP was from an order of magnitude perspective. Rossi is believable.

      • Albert D. Kallal

        Without information about the customer, then additional purchases etc. have little weight. Until such time additional information about the customer is known, then additional orders etc. holds little weight.

        I 100% agree that additional orders bodes well for Rossi, but ONLY when additional information about the customer is known does additional orders become credible. In other words, it likely true that additional ecats were ordered, but until we have additional information about the customer, then these additional orders don’t mean a lot.

        The fact that IH seems to have little if any worry about the customer suggests this “customer” has a conflict of interest that taints their testimony. If the customer is happy with the ecat performance, then IH don’t have a leg to stand on, do they? So one has to ask why IH does not care one bit about this customer?

        Regards,
        Albert D. Kallal
        Edmonton, Alberta Canada

        • HS61AF91

          Let Leonardo have some time to get that robot factory working, and then, while the suit may drag on, the ordered e-Cats performance will speak for themselves. As more customers use e-Cats, the their identities will abound. The USA may be a importer before it becomes and exporter of e-Cats, and that would be a shame. Thanks to the non-payment of contractual agreement. Best to settle out of court and get on with producing the products.

          • Albert D. Kallal

            Yup – it really that simple! – lets hope this occurs ASAP!

  • SG

    My sense is he is trying to be as objective as possible. Of all of the people who recognize the inconsistencies in IH’s position, it will be Mats. After all, he literally wrote the book on Mr. Rossi and knows the situation perhaps better than anybody else.

  • Felix Meyer

    The claim of Rossi to obtain a COP over 50 is false!
    It seem, that the LENR process is working, but the real COP have seen is 1.1 to 1.5
    The measuring of the E-CAT is WRONG, as the main part, the water pump in the E-CAT is bad (This pump is used to “measure” the energy of the hot water. The amount of pumped water was wrong, as the pump was running about 50% max. speed, and the amount of indicated of water was 4 to 6 higher that the real amount!)
    Here was one point, where we see, how the cheating was done … !!!

    • Andreas Moraitis

      Since the energy is proportional to the mass of heated water, 6 times less water would still give a COP > 8.

    • Steve H

      How do you square that with the fact that he is using PID controlled, mass flow controllers to feed the water into the reactors!

    • Frank Acland

      Is this your opinion, or have you a source for this allegation?

      • psi2u2

        My thoughts exactly.

    • viking999

      And how do you explain the huge amount of kilowatts that was saved at the plant.

      • psi2u2

        That is not yet on record. It is claimed. I tend to believe it must be true, and if it is true it should vindicate Rossi. If not……well, like I said, I just think it is good to careful and stick to what is really in evidence, not based on mere verbal assurances.

    • It seems logical to assume that after one year IH suddenly find that that almost every single detail in the plant was defect or running at 1/10 of speed, or maybe there was an UFO involved or something explaining that there actually was no heat at all… for a year …

      • kdk

        Those aliens are Nefarious. They mosey around acting all pleasant, but every once in a while they lose their cool (!) and beam in Megawatts of energy at somebody. They have waited 3,000 years for their plans to finally come to fruition. V

        • psi2u2

          Makes sense to me.

        • Even our interstellar brethren are now falling under Rossi’s spell!

          • Axil Axil

            I beleive that the EcatX might be under a secrecy order because of its similarity to the EMDrive.

            The physics is very cutting edge and not easy to understand.

            Rossi let out that the ECatX produced thrust without propellant but Rossi latter took it back as a mistake or misunderstanding in language. Somebody might have muzzled Rossi.

            http://www.e-catworld.com/2016/04/04/now-thrust-from-the-e-cat/comment-page-1/

            The ECatX might use the same physics as the EMdrive to produce thrust, but would be far more powerful.

            The new EMDrive theory as follows

            http://www.examiner.com/article/has-the-impossible-em-drive-being-tested-by-nasa-finally-been-explained

            Assuming the radiation emitted by a LENR reactor is hawking radiation, it might be possible that the LENR reactor will accelerate in its frame of reference because it changes the nature of the vacuum in its frame of reference relative to the inertial frame of the universe. Hawking radiation makes virtual particles into real particles.

            Simply stated, if acceleration produces Unruh radiation then Hawking radiation will produce acceleration, if Unruh radiation is the same as Hawking radiation by the equivalence principle.

            A LENR reactor in space will produce a reactionless drive.

            Here is the reference that explains the justification for this statement:

            “Unruh radiation is the same as Hawking radiation by the equivalence principle.”

            Hawking radiation, Unruh radiation and the equivalence principle

            http://arxiv.org/abs/1102.5564

          • Alan DeAngelis
    • Pat

      Once you can operate in SSM, you can (and do) achieve a COP as high as you would care to calculate. In SSM, COP is no longer important.

    • Tom59

      LENR is working, cold fusion is real -fantastic!!!

    • Warthog

      No pump or any other special apparatus is needed to validate the report. All that is necessary is the “kilowatt” meter measuring the electricity flowing to the customer’s process. And a valid COP of even 1.1 “should” have every physicist in the world racing to his lab to replicate….ain’t happenin’, bro.

      • Guest

        you assume there is an actual “customer’s process”…

        Again, it’s unlikely to be the electricity in measure that’s in doubt, but rather what energy came out of it…

        • Warthog

          There is zero doubt that there was a process of some sort into which energy was flowing….even IH says there is/was.

          I have zero clue of what you second sentence is supposed to mean…..

          • psi2u2

            I think he means that unless you really have a solid control plant, with an equal amount of production, the electric bill doesn’t tell you that much.

          • I.e., the electricity in – heat out equation depends on accurate measurement of the amount of heat, which in turn depends on a number of factors, all of which must be accurately recorded. If heat output is in the form of steam, as it appears to be, this becomes very complicated, and may be open to interpretation.

          • Warthog

            One needs none of that to measure the electricity/energy used “before Ecat” and compare it to electricity/energy used “after Ecat”. One needs only the already installed meters put into place by the commercial energy providers.

            No calorimetry is needed at all to conclude “yes, it works” and

          • roseland67

            Warthog,
            You are making many assumptions here, i.e.:
            Was the work performed the same?
            We’re the environmental conditions the same?
            We’re the # of people in the building the same?
            There are many parameters that effect the consumption and demand in a building.
            It is highly unlikely that this “process” if it exists, had its own utility meter connected to it.

          • Warthog

            I am assuming nothing except that the process exists, and has the standard meter connections that all businesses have. The items you list will cancel/average out over a years run-time.

          • There is no evidence of a business at the test location that pre-dates the import of the e-cat containers, so there will not be any utility bills with which to make a comparison. Unless of course the JMC story is a ruse to protect the ‘real’ customer, and the actual tests took place elsewhere.

    • Thomas Kaminski

      It is highly likely that an independent flow measurement was made. You do not rely on a pump to measure flow, unless it is a very accurate volumetric pump. What makes you think that the pump was made to measure flow?

  • bkrharold

    The increasingly acrimonious dispute between Rossi and IH would not be happening unless both parties know they they are arguing over something very valuable. If Rossi were a fraud it is unlikely he would be fighting so tenaciously, knowing that his fraud would eventually be exposed, and he might face serious charges. Also IH are sending mixed messages, claiming the the eCat does not work, while filing a patent based on Rossis. They cant have it both ways. This unfortunate turn of events might delay the introduction of the ecat at a time when it is most desperately needed, by everyone in the world.

    • Rossi Fan

      Ever consider that they might not really be fighting? They could be shopping for a buyer. Investors love a bargain that they can buy for pennies on the dollar.

      • SG

        This has all the hallmarks of a genuine fight. I think IH has been extremely inconsistent in the positions that they have taken. They have a lot of explaining to do in my book. As others have pointed out, there might be larger interests at stake, which might be distorting this whole affair.

        • Rossi Fan

          To me it has all the hallmarks of the 1-10-100 rule. Rossi gets 10 from IH to start. IH gets 60 from W-something UK to pile it higher. Rossi and IH get 200 from the Chinese to pile it higher and deeper (PHD in balls). Then they explode in a lawsuit and hope for an even bigger payoff. Someone who is going to try to take LENR off of Rossi’s hands for what was his loss = price? $89? Or someone who is going to try to take LENR off of IH’s hands for at least $200 because that’s what the Chinese paid for it.

          There is a language these tech business guys use you have to catch onto. When someone says they lost $X that means they can be bought out for that price. To the trained eye this is Rossi telling the world that this is his valuation and that the e-cat is on the market.

          Lawsuit? What lawsuit? I don’t see a lawsuit. This is LENR ebay.

          Along comes the ERV report to prove it is real and Brilliouin the still company to entice whoever comes along to buy LENR on ebay.

        • HS61AF91

          The prudent Doctore caught them with their pants down around their ankles with that lawsuit.

        • Albert D. Kallal

          Always loved this scene from sneakers – it talks about money corrupting people:

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coDtzN6bXAM

      • bkrharold

        Why would Rossi or IH want to sell the eCat for pennies on the dollar unless it is worthless? My point was they are squabbling because they both believe it is valuable.

    • Albert D. Kallal

      The perplexing part is how come IH does not seem to care or worry about this “customer”?

      I mean, if the customer is happy with ecat performance, then this is going to take 5 minutes in front of the judge, and IH does not have a leg to stand on.

      The above suggests that the “customer” thus has a conflict of interest that taints their testimony.

      One has to ask why IH has zero concern about this customer and that of a simple testimony from this customer would sink IH’s position on this matter?

      Clearly IH does not seem worried about this issue since the existence of a credible customer blows IH’s position out of the water.

      Regards,
      Albert D. Kallal
      Edmonton, Alberta Canada

      • cashmemorz

        It is not the customer that IH is not concerned about but, the way that the E-Cat is to be “substantiated”. If you look at what “substantiate” means in this context it all comes together in a rather nice way. IH simply wants the function of the year long test to be confirmed from another direction and confirmation is all is that required. As Andrea Rossi sell more of the E-Cats, the more sources from which to draw such confirmation. The more satisfied customers there are(similar to the customer involved in the year long test) the more confirmation there will be. Period. End of conflict.

        • psi2u2

          I hope you are correct.

      • Alan DeAngelis

        “…does not seem to care…”
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGS029Peq7k

      • Brokeeper

        Once the video recordings taken within the 1MW container 24/7/350 is released as evidence, all may be exposed one way or the other. I’m curious if sound is also available to hear the accolades from IH and visitors.

        • Even that could be made to look like fraudulent showmanship duping unskilled observers by a clever lawyer.

        • Albert D. Kallal

          I don’t see how video will help or hurt the ecat case. I don’t think we are disagreeing that “tours” and people came to see the plant. However looking at a box of equipment tells one VERY little about how it is performing.

          I mean, what on the video would help or hurt the ecat and its performance?
          Regards,
          Albert D. Kallal
          Edmonton, Alberta Canada

          • Brokeeper

            Its pictures would be worth more than a thousand words especially backed by credible witnesses shown in those pictures. I am, as Rossi, also confident in the jury system made up of common folks like you and me, who can discern between truth and deception when correctly presented. Once AR releases the E-Cat to the European market followed with accolades matching those made in the container, common sense will prevail.

          • Albert D. Kallal

            The pictures will not help such whiteness to “become” more (or less) credible until such time the conflicts of interests are eliminated. So who leased the building, who paid for the power etc.

            I mean if people working and using the energy come forward and state they are saving power – then such testimony goes a LONG way to helping the ecat case, but ONLY if conflicts of interest are eliminated.

            So the pictures on their own does very little to “help” such people coming forward.

            If such conflicts of interest are eliminated (or don’t exist), then yes, pictures accompanied with credible witness will help.

            I don’t think anyone here is doubting that the 1MW plant exists and doubting that it’s been run for a year. The issue is that of who used the power, and who supplied and paid for the power. Pictures and videos of people speaking don’t help or change this conflict issue at all.
            And with such conflicts, then it would be un-wise to fork out 90 million dollars.

            Regards,
            Albert D. Kallal
            Edmonton, Alberta Canada

      • Dave Smith has addressed this question above (his option 3). Rossi’s choice of a dubious ‘customer’ and a one-man-band ‘ERV’ were not only sanctioned by IH, but they probably also blocked any alternatives, leaving Rossi no other choices. The combination could then be easily attacked in a court, discrediting Penon’s report findings completely, and probably even turned around to be made to look like a part of a planned scam by Rossi.

        This is why IH (Cherokee, or more likely a bigger fish sponsoring them) have engaged the services of APCO and Jones Day – they need this kind of firepower in order to rewrite history and attempt to turn Rossi’s attack (itself a defensive move) into a rout.

        • Albert D. Kallal

          @agaricus
          wrote:
          Rossi’s choice of a dubious ‘customer’ and a one-man-band ‘ERV’ were not only sanctioned by IH,

          First the word “sanctioned” is less than ideal. I think a better term is “went along”. Remember, at the start trust levels between the two parties are good, if not outright high.

          I do accept that IH likely dragged their feet on finding a customer. It not like they have an office full of people on the phone looking for a test company. So an extra
          month or so delay was never a big deal to IH. (but certainly more of an issue
          for Rossi).

          And who’s supposed to look for the test customer anyway? (likely Rossi’s job). So in this light, Rossi took the initiative, and so far that’s all we know.

          IH, but they probably also blocked more credible alternatives, leaving Rossi no other choices

          We don’t know this. I find it difficult to think IH was willing to go along with a company that Rossi found (or created), but not agree to a more credible company? That don’t make sense.

          I suspect IH knew rather little about this test company from the start. IH likely did not give the issue a whole lot of thought. As noted, at the start IH and Rossi had good levels of trust. So Rossi stated, “here”, I found a test company, they seem like a good match.

          So the trust levels between IH and Rossi likely diminished over time, especially given how Rossi works. I suspect additional information about conflicts of interest in this company only came to light later on. In other words, IH went along with the
          test company based on Rossi recommendation. As noted, it not like IH has a team of people on the phone looking for a test company.

          could then be easily attacked in a court,
          discrediting Penon’s report findings completely

          Penon likely is just doing his job. The issue is not can we trust Peon, but can we trust the plant? Who pays utility bills etc? Such issues give rise to conflicts of
          interest. And I don’t see actions by IH as a company attempting to thwart LENR
          at this point in time. Darden spoke at the LENR conference. I am open to the idea
          that many a companies and organisations would certainly be against LENR but
          actions of IH don’t (yet) support them as attempting to damage LENR.

          Down below, cashmemorz wrote:
          It is not the customer that IH is not concerned about but, the way that the E-Cat is to be “substantiated

          I VERY much agree with this. While we are “hearing” that IH does not think the ecat don’t work, that “don’t work” statement is from a second party talking to IH. I feel IH is not quite saying the ecat don’t work, but they ARE saying is they can’t substantiate” what they have. Given the contexts here, the wording from IH makes perfect sense.

          So these events hurts Rossi credibility. It does not mean the fat lady has sang, and it don’t mean the ecat is dead, but it does mean we don’t have good information as to the performance of the ecat as of yet.

          Regards,
          Albert D. Kallal
          Edmonton, Alberta Canada

  • It’s not black and white you know. Opinions could be more or less logical or depend merely on emotions. The pathoskept cult is usually built on emotions of hatred and fear. When put into a corner they often seems to say they they do it because of hatred of … something, someone. Very often they say they hate fraudsters (on pure opinion, no evidence required) or hate pseudoscience … Does that make sense or what???

    • psi2u2

      Yes, I have encountered exactly this style of resistance to new knowledge in my own field as a Shakespeare scholar. The same FUD factor seems to inhabit the internet to stir up disinformation to slow down the inevitable collapse of an intellectually moribund establishment that is adhered to with religious faith, even though the question is purely a historical and literary one.

      • Alex Fenrick

        Thank you Psi…I really do appreciate that. While I have said that I believe extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof…I think that many of the skeptics forget that they must be just as diligent in backing skeptical claims as they expect from those on the opposite side of the fence. I honestly and sincerely hope that my poking and prodding into things that do not make sense to me personally in this case turn out to be complete conspiracy because LENR really would change the world no matter what any skeptic wants to believe. I will also take this opportunity to publicly say that the individuals in here on both sides of the fence are some of the smartest people…and the hardest to debate anywhere haha. I will admit sometimes I get emotionally charged by the conversations…but I never take it personally…in all honesty I am honored to get to spar with such brilliant minds in here. The lay person would be so lost by the discussion in here …in about 30 seconds. While I may appear to be a “pathoskeptic” to some in here lol….I honestly do still hold hope for LENR success for the world.

  • Rossi Fan

    In its current state it can be sold for much more than $10. Full disclosure and testing before you buy is not possible because Rossi can claim that IH has some key ingredient needed to show/demo and IH can claim Rossi has it. Who knows if IH/Rossi did not take China Inc. for a $200 ride and now they are both unaccountable and pointing the finger at each other?

  • Nonsense, a product in the market will certainly do as well. The ERV report is a contractual document that both parties agreed upon. WHY are YOU ignoring this fact?

    • psi2u2

      Yes, a rather more particular type of “science experiment,” in other words.

      Still, evidence for transmutation should be provided in any thorough report. Its absence would be a glaring omission at this stage. I realize that full analysis of the ash may be considered a trade secret, but the report must address this question in some reasoned fashion or it will be a real weakness, i.e. providing at least some before and after values confirming transmutation.

    • roseland67

      Sifferkoll,
      There are supposedly Ecats in the market now, military, Miami customer, the original Ecat customer in Milan, etc, however they have done nothing to convince anyone that LENR exists

      • Yes, and even though we don’t know if they exist, we can be pretty sure that these customers knows if it works. And actually, I would say that many people are convinced. Convincing everyone is impossible and not important, because denial is such a strong force.

        Every test, however flawless and/or scentific, will and can be disputed with ad-hominem/fraud arguments. This is why the pathoskepts like to promote this kind of solution … It’s the trap they are building and unfortunately a lot of people fall into it, because of their belief in honesty.

        And as I said, the ERV is important from a contractual standpoint, this FACT you still ignore.

      • SG

        Most military and private customers are self-interested. In fact, companies have fiduciary responsibilities to their shareholders to maximize profits. There would be zero incentive to share with others. Secrecy within military is par for the course, and again, no incentive for sharing. They have no reason to convince anyone else that LENR exists, and in fact, have every motivation to do exactly the opposite.

  • psi2u2

    I agree, but only pending confirmation.

  • Albert D. Kallal

    Transcripts are far better. You can waste 2 hours on a tape, and get 3 tid bits of information. Worse such a format is not searchable. Unless someone going to convert them into text, such formats are really bad from an information point of view (you cannot time shift and only “read” as fast as people talk).

    So you can spend 6 hours listing to tapes, or 3 minutes with a searchable document. At least we know the information is available.

    I would rather see an ecat at some customer then watch paint dry, watch grass grow, or start listening to court documents – these things drag on for years.

    You have to understand that the MAIN job of lawyers is to drag this out AS LONG AS POSSIBLE!

    Again the goal: Drag things out AS LONG AS POSSIBLE!

    As a result of the above legal goal, then this gives rise to ***WHEN*** possible the lawyers goal is to keep the conflict going! This gives rise to parties OFTEN taking unreasonable positions as a starting position (which then is moved by each set of lawyers to some middle ground).

    I can assure everyone here that real courts are NOTHING like a Hollywood movie – they are boring as hell, drag on for as long as possible, and the goal of the lawyers is to keep the conflict going on as long as possible – there no other real goal at all.

    This is a 10 to 15 year make work project for the lawyers. In fact, such cases often go beyond the lifespan of those involved. The case will stop when one of the parties runs out of money for their lawyers, and ONLY then.

    I suppose the case could flush out the “customer”, but given that IH public says the ecat don’t work, IH obviously don’t fear or have any worry about this customer, do they?

    This much suggests that the customer is not independent, and is not credible and is of little or no concern for IH.

    I would “temper” your hope and excitement about this trial, as they tend to be like watching grass grow over many years.

    Regards,
    Albert D. Kallal
    Edmonton, Alberta Canada

  • psi2u2

    Albert’s comments have always impressed me with their sense of fairness and informed perspective, so even though I don’t like the way this seems to be going, I find insight from the post.

  • Frank Acland

    Mats Lewan wrote this on his blog. It’s the most info I have seen reported about the customer:

    “Ok, so people I have talked to, who visited the plant, got a
    presentation from someone supposedly being the ‘Director of
    Engineering’ at JM Products Inc, that supposedly produced metal
    sponges for catalytic applications. The Director of Engineering told
    them that they were very satisfied since the yield per amount of
    electric energy consumed was significantly larger than in the
    company’s other production sites, maybe 10x or 20x (figure uncertain).
    Someone got a glimpse though a door and saw what seemed to be
    production activity.

    • Buck

      Frank,

      it is this quote that seems to point to the great divide between “unable to substantiate” and “fraud”.

      I can only hope that Mats’ sources are sound and courageous for the simple reason that Rossi essentially knows the whole list of visitors who have moved through the plant. And, he likely knows the “Director of Engineering” at JM Products, given how he changed their operation’s energy source.

    • Alain Samoun

      Mats said also that this director could also be an actor…

      • SG

        And the conspiracy keeps expanding, now inclusive of an impressive number of people, places, and events.

        • I think it has become fairly apparent that what we have been watching has been a tiny part of the overall picture, and some of the other parties are now being progressively exposed.

          Whether or not this involves ‘conspiracy’ depends on how one interprets the word. When any group of people works together in secrecy according to a common agenda or purpose, then personally I would used the word conspiracy. Others may have differing interpretations.

          Adding the word ‘theory’ doesn’t change much, as any conspiracy not yet proven to be such must remain theory, or more properly speculation, until the secrecy has been ended.

        • Albert D. Kallal

          Mats was just repeating what he heard, and thus stated that details of the event are sketchy (don’t know who the engineering was for example – could have been anyone!). Mats was just being careful and giving a caveat to that statement.

          As for conspiracy? Penon, or this engineer is only going to repeat what Penon, Rossi or the customer is saying – that they are saving lots of energy. So these additional people don’t have to conspire, but only take the readings from the ecat plant.

          The problem thenbecomes are additional sources of energy available to the plant, and without additional details of who paying the bills etc., then such testimony is less than ideal.

          However, most important in above is how you do NOT need a whole bunch of people to conspire. If “one” part sneaks by, then everyone else down the line is simply being honest and sincere without knowledge of their information being wrong.

          I mean, one should read the story of Keely motors here:

          http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/museum/keely/keely.htm

          Many a engineer looked at this motor and believed it worked!

          Regards,
          Albert D. Kallal
          Edmonton, Alberta Canada

          • SG

            I get what you are saying. But consider that there are a couple of differences here that you might consider. First, it hasn’t just been a few engineers. Groups of well-respected scientists have observed and tested e-Cat devices, pre-test fuels, and post-test fuels over the course of five years, all with positive or intriguing results. So there are three possibilities for detractors: they’ve all been duped, they’ve all been sloppy and incompetant, or they are all part of a conspiracy. None of the explanations seem very plausible to me. Second, we know that LENR is a real phenomena, which lends credence to the e-Cat.

          • Albert D. Kallal

            Well, I think the issue is performance.

            The problem is such tests have been “less” than ideal. The third party test was a good start, but there are issues.

            So great evidence exists for LENR, but not for such high power output that Rossi claims to have.

            As several others have suggested, Rossi should send a dog type bone reactor to MMFP for a test – it really would quite much put an end to the speculative information we have.

            And to repeat Rossi – only a happy customer is the real test here.

            Regards,
            Albert D. Kallal
            Edmonton, Alberta Canada

    • There is also the small matter of the various shots of the containers, with the early and later versions of the 1MW machine sitting in the middle. Unless these are interpreted as cardboard sets or CGI, they were built by a serious engineering fabricator, at significant cost.

      At a guess, these prototypes would have cost well in excess of $100k each to have built – not the kind of money you would throw around on anything other than what they purport to be. Just the fact that one version was replaced by another seems to dismiss any conjecture other than that they were working prototypes (why would you replace one CGI or set with another when you didn’t need to do that?).

      Even if the chemical co. was not what it is now said to be (a temporary set-up designed to provide a simulated field test for the e-cats, with data logging) then the apparently working containers would need to be explained by skeptics or lawyers in some other way. This of course begs the question of where are the containers now? (the property concerned is now apparently now back on the market for rental).

      • wpj

        There is also the matter of the pictures of the people making these; IH employed people, to boot!

        Interesting point about the unit being up for rent as well. We do have a report that the plant was being recharged so it would be interesting to know if the client was now using it at their proper site.

        • cashmemorz

          In this context Rossi’s flaw is the old Italian habit of being of the mentality where “blood is thicker than water” meaning those of close family or blood relations and close friends are automatically considered for important and not so important, or whatever position, over those who might have the best qualifications. Perhaps “arms length” concept is distrusted by those of his persuasion.

        • “pictures of the people making these..”

          I haven’t seen those. Do you have a link please?

      • Albert D. Kallal

        The ecat plant is no doubt real.

        And it really a nice design – far advanced compared to the early 2011 model.

        And yes, it certainly was not cheap to build.

        As noted, the issue is performance and validation – we don’t have either as of yet.

        Regards,
        Albert D. Kallal
        Edmonton, Alberta Canada

    • Albert D. Kallal

      This would seem to be the only firsthand account of the plant (from a second party). I suspect this information is true. Of course we don’t know who the engineer is (and it likely don’t matter – such a person not going to really know the performance of the ecat plant anymore then Peon does).

      Given that the temperature of the ecat is not that high, I don’t see how such heat would be of use for manufacturing metal sponges for catalytic applications (but JM metals is certainly involved in such operations).

      So I am sure there was a plant. I sure that “tours” occurred. It just not clear who owned and leased the premises, and who paid utility bills etc.

      Regards,
      Albert D. Kallal
      Edmonton, Alberta Canada

      • Alan Smith

        Manufacturing metal sponge is a process requiring lots of hot water. The process starts in a foundry where (in short) Ni powder in mixed into molten aluminium – like gravel into cement mortar. This need not have been done in Miami.
        The nextt stage is to leach out the Aluminium with Alkali and hot water leaving the sintered Ni particles behind as a kind of Nickel foam. This part is where Ecat is useful..

        • Albert D. Kallal

          Thanks Alan (gotta love this fad called the internet!). This bit of info is usefull.

          This does thus bode well for the existence of the plant. As noted, I believe the plant exists – and using ecat for this second stage or process makes sense, and this would explain why and how a “manufacturing” plant was created out of thin air.

          In other words, only one step of the process was occurring, and this thus sounds rather reasonable. So some “huge” manufacturing plant was not created out of thin air.

          IH is holding out on payment either because they don’t want to pay, or they have doubts (or both!). Perhaps they don’t have the “secret”, but once manufacturing and deliver starts, then that issue could be resolved either by reverse engineering, or pushing Rossi for more details or by working closer with Rossi.

          All I can say is if the COP is 50+ then I can’t see how or why anyone would hold up any kind of payment for such a magical technology.

          Regards,
          Albert D. Kallal
          Edmonton, Alberta Canada

  • builditnow

    An avenue of thought to keep in mind.
    Rossi could have kept back some “secret sauce” in order to maintain some power as an inventor. Otherwise he would only have a contract, a few million dollars and the word of some independent evaluator against a $2 billion fund and possibly much more than that.

    So, could Rossi be wanting this court case to shore up the agreement, thus avoiding having the potential of a later court case, by having it early, up front, before production starts, rather than being even further behind trying to sue would could become a multi trillion dollar fund against Rossi’s million or two or nothing. Some possible evidence for this is that Rossi had already prepared for this court case before the date that the $89 million was due. My understanding is that Rossi filed the case the day after the $89 million was due.

    IMHO this would be a smart move by Rossi, it gives an extra guarantee that the contract will be adhered to by having it run through a court case. Thus then having the weight of the US legal system behind the contract.

    Just guessing.

  • Dr. Mike

    roseland67,
    I also would like to see replication and analysis of “ash’ products as confirming data on LENR. However, if I had to chose between seeing a replication of 10%-30% excess heat or data from a system running for 350 days that operated at a COP of greater than 50, I think I would rather see the latter. (Note I am assuming that the ERV report will support the claim in the court documents.) I think I will be able to read the report and determine if the potential errors in data taking are small compared to the claimed COP of 50. Also, I am sure Rossi will have the ash in the end of use devices analyzed, but I don’t believe the data will be released anytime soon.

  • Publius

    I don’t inextricably link LENR and Rossi together and I certainly don’t think the prospect of our LENR future depends solely on what Rossi and IH have going on. This case is clearly in federal court because of the dollar amount, not because of any governmental involvement and this case will not be the Miracle on 34th Street that determines if LENR is real or not. LENR viability will be played out in the years to come by the handful of parties putting the puzzle pieces together behind closed doors.

    • psi2u2

      And on this website.

      • SG

        And among the open source MFMP folks.

        • psi2u2

          Well that’s mainly who I was meaning, but yes I get your point that replication efforts are now happening in many places and only some of them are reporting live results here.

  • Well, faith against hate … I guess you can make it into an ethical question if you like. Sort of like Star Wars …

    But, as you know, in the absence of enough facts, the pathoskept hate cult have consistently taken the “ad-hominem”/”guilty until proven otherwise” standpoint, while the “faith” side usually analyse the situation using logic and reason from the facts/statements available, even though some of them might not have a probability of 1 and has to be estimated. That’s what I call analysis. But you might have a different view. I still have the feeling you prefer to paint stuff either black or white …

  • Alain Samoun

    Possible, but what the interest of IH to invest time and money with Rossi if they planned to do what you said? Do they have Saudis money? Don’t think so,instead they have invested in countries that would do anything to get cheap and unlimited energy like China and USA.

    • Argon

      I think one reason mentioned earlier here could be IH:s interest on delaying, so they could do their own moves and transition to new era would be smoother. Smoother for current big palyers as well economies in general.

      And other explanation is nastier… Yes I can very easily believe that company run by only businessmen and lawyers can make this kind basic errors on due diligence. I have witnessed a similar case. We even tried to loudly warn these arrogant businessmen, that their due diligence lacks badly to address alarming facts we could even google from public sources. Result losses was in same price range and lose of market because of wrong choices. Sad but true, and that is not the only case, we, technical people, tend to give too much value and respect arrogant people wearing suits and driving expensive company cars.
      Playing with big sums and numbers does not mean that our contribution is more valuable than persons playing with challenging scientific or technical problems – a fact that people tend to forget, some by purpose.

  • Alain Samoun

    “Is that a roll of nickels in your pocket Mr. Rossi or are you just glad to see me?”
    Originally said by Mae West.
    Could not resist 😉

  • Pekka Janhunen

    Rossi wasn’t there 24/7, but approximately 16/7. If one has a COP of 6 one third of the time, the average COP becomes 18, not 50, even if the COP would be infinite always when Rossi is present.
    If your theory is right, Rossi must have handed out the gadget to another person. However, I don’t think this is right, for example because radio waves would have a hard time penetrating through the conducting structures of the reactors. One reactor perhaps yes, but radiating all four E-tigers simultaneously from a single pocket sounds geometrically a challenging thing to do.

    • Pekka Janhunen

      I amend myself. RF penetration into the reactors wouldn’t be a problem if the pocket radio signal is picked up by the control box of the plant before its amplifier. It would be easy to make a control box which works suboptimally without certain RF input.
      However, in order to reach 50+ COP, also Rossi’s aide should have possessed the device. Absence/presence of periodic regularities in COP as a function of time of day would make this scenario more/less unlikely.

    • georgehants

      Micheal, it may be helpful if you added an assessment of the current situation leading from your point.

    • cashmemorz

      I remember when my cities public transit system was changed to diesel power just at the time when electricity was cheapest. There was a write up by proponents of electric powered vehicles of how this occurred. The explanation of this was that the manufacturers of diesel powered busses were influenced by the oil companies to bid lower than the electrical powered vehicle manufacturers could

      • Cuthbert Allgood

        Well, first of all, have one technology outbid another technology has nothing to do with secret conspiracies to suppress new world-changing technology, which is the subject of the discussion.

        Second, having one company outbid another company and going lower than they can go… er… that’s competition, working as intended. Am I supposed to cry that the city got a better deal because you like one technology over the other? That’s the whole point of competition, applying lower price pressure. If your argument is that the city lost money long-term for whatever reason, then that’s on the city’s financial analysts. There’s no conspiracy here.

        • cashmemorz

          Did you get the part that the oil companies were in on the influence to get the bus manufacturers to bid lower?

          • Ted-Z

            Discussing about the reality (true or false) of the conspiracy theories IS DERAILING this discussion list and filling it with garbage.
            THE MODERATOR should limit this type of OFF TOPIC attempts to resurrect the dead ideas, which are now AT THE STAGE OF ZOMBIES. It looks like the long-debunked statements are being brought back, from an old and rarely updated script.

  • georgehants

    The whole court case etc. is irrelevant and is only capitalism at it’s worst chasing obscene profit and power.
    A very old saying that, money is the root of all evil, is just as True today as when it was first spoken.
    Mr. Rossi has stated that he can now make his devices almost impossible to back engineer, then start distributing them to competent people such as MFMP and certainly not any corrupt and incompetent establishment organizations, for verification.
    Cold Fusion is the only important thing to this World, not who gains piles of Gold ans Silver for their own pathetic greed.
    Do we here care about Cold Fusion and the great benefits it could bring to those who most need it or just waste our time justifying this farce.
    Mr. Rossi PROVE your Cold Fusion to us and all concerned people and stop playing silly little capitalist games, people are suffering and dying by the day.

    • DrD

      NO George you have it wrong, the saying is “the love of money is the root of all evil”. notice the important difference?

      • georgehants

        DrD , thank you and fully except the difference, in any system there will always be tokens, credits in which to work at a very basic level.
        Of course my meaning does not change one iota and perhaps you would now like to reply with your assessment of the evils of a unfair, distorted and dishonest system that leads to millions suffering while some wallow in luxury.

    • Ted-Z

      It started with Julius Cesar and his inventor of transparent metal, through the history, inventors of amazing inventions have kept the inventions as secrets and then the inventors were “eliminated”, sometimes by natural forces (Bessler’s case in the 18th century and many others). Andrea apparently has some “insurance letters” to be published, if he will vanish in thin air. This might be the reason that he has not been eliminated so far. He is untouchable, as Snowden and some others from the Wikileaks. Some governments may have even better solutions than the Ecat, but they will keep them as top secret, because of a perception that just mentioning these inventions will cause re-creation by the other countries and a shift in the power balance. The disclosing of the existence of the atomic bomb was the greatest mistake that the US government ever made. They could have covered up the dropping of the bomb as a new type of mass-bombing with conventional materials but with synchronized fuses.

  • DrD

    Just suppose a few of the most important and most powerful individuals in the world, not just in the US, have determined that AR can not be allowed to mass produce and sell his LENR, nor anyone else. Suppose these are really the ones behind his obstructors. Can he survive?

    • georgehants

      DrD you seem to be suggesting that our capitalist system is rotten to the core.
      Yes I would agree with you, money and power can be the root of much evil..

  • Gerard McEk

    It would be extremely good when AR would decide to have a QuarkX or Ecat tested by MFMP. That would immediately turn all doubts into certainties. I would very much advise AR to do this. There is no need to look for changes in the fuel. Just a COP measurement would be fine. I would be prepared to fund this for the good of humanity.

    • SG

      Yes, this is precisely what needs to happen. While it would never convince the pathos, and probably not the public either, it would go a long way with the LENR community, and would be helpful in advancing LENR into the marketplace.

    • Alan Smith

      It’s a great idea Gerard, but under the present circumstances the burden of proof would be raised so high that an Ecat test by MFMP or me or indeed anyone of lesser stature than UL ably assisted by a troupe of Archangels would only make matters worse – muddying the waters even more. And it would bring down tremendous opprobrium on MFMP. Not to mention the fact that AR is not too happy with them or indeed anyone right now. When hot metal is flying across no-mans land, best not stand in the middle!

      • Gerard McEk

        Yes, I thinkyou are right Alan, although I personally have more confidence in MFMP than in UL under these extreme situation, considering the money they would ask. BTW, a while ago I have asked AR about this test in by MFMP and he replied positive about it.

        • Frank Acland

          You mean he was positive about having the MFMP test an E-Cat?

          • Gerard McEk

            Yes Frank he did. I think I asked him in February.

    • I agree.

  • Ted-Z

    The physical pre-treatment history is extremely difficult to reverse engineer. Reverse engineering of the composition is not a problem with the modern instrumental analysis.
    ———————–
    MFMP and other replications should concentrate on pre-treatment. Try cryogenic pre-treatment and the standard methods for pre-treatment of steel.

  • georgehants

    dms, so you seriously believe those with out money will be cared about any more than today.

  • NT

    Yep, just more “efficient” and corrupt-able than the ole barter system…

  • LCD

    I think it’s clear now that public tests have zero impact.

    But I agree with you that while the Rossi effect may be real I have yet to see evidence that it can be tamed by him.

    As much as I would like to get a crack at finding the theory behind the effect (through proper research) Rossi deserves time to do it himself.

    But the ethics of this are difficult because the importance to society is so great that there should almost be a new rule that both allows Rossi to cash in while openly sharing his immature method ( hint it’s not a patent).

    From where Rossi supposedly is now to product SHOULD NOT take long, but nobody has the confidence it will be quick.

    I agree Rossi is fighting independent testers, but to date no one has a repeatable method for LENR+.

  • HS61AF91

    Maybe a speaker broadcasting sound above 25kHz?

  • Alan DeAngelis

    A replication would be great but on the other hand, this is the thanks John Bockris got for his DoE funded replication of F&P’s experiment
    in 1989. http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41uhl8x00LL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htgV7fNO-2k 13:20 min.

    • Obvious

      Get Gary to sign it before it’s too late.

  • Karl Venter

    Most of us thought the independent evaluator (ERV)would be somebody like SGS TUV etc and that once and for all this would be put to bed it real and works.
    And now we have nothing but rossi says – definately a major flaw by both parties not to have a completely independent evaluator.
    Lugano hailed – but turned out iffy
    One year 1Mw hailed but turned out iffy
    EcatX hailed but turned out …………………

  • psi2u2

    ” when nobody could reproduce the results.”

    There were successful replications from very early on. The fact of even one successful reproduction should have given the orthodoxists pause to reconsider their assumptions. Instead greed, ego, and clinging to old models prevailed.

    “And that whole electric mass transit conspiracy has always been nonsense. ”

    No, it was proven by Barry Commoner in the pages of the New Yorker. Your answer makes it clear that you do not even know what I am talking about, which is the destruction of the already existing, fully functional electric rail systems in most cities of north america. The technology was perfectly ready. It was in operation. Stop proclaiming about topics you don’t know anything about. I am through with this conversation. Good luck.

  • jousterusa

    The American Reporter (www.american-reporter.com) was the first online or print news pub in America to reveal the presence of the growing Zika virus threat to the Americas, and for that and similar scoops we’ve enjoyed being linked to by CNN for a long time. I would be in error to say they have been very interested in LENR, but now with the high-stakes lawsuits and the (pending) report, I think we can swing some major coverage from them. Any ideas for an angle?

  • Josh G

    You obviously haven’t read Eugene Mallove’s investigative work on the conspiracy to cover up child’s fusion at MIT. In fact I would be surprised if you’ve read anything but your scripted talking points. But I’ll give you props. It takes real chutzpah to come on a website of cold fusion enthusiasts and declare without the slightest hint of irony or embarassment that there is no evidence of a world changing technology being suppressed. That’s rich. Thanks for giving me a laugh. I needed it.

  • Timar

    Mats Lewan just gave this update:

    “April 24. I have received a copy of an electricity
    statement, from Florida Power & Light Company, issued on JM Chemical
    Products Corp., for the period February 2 until March 2, 2015. The
    total amount of energy consumed is 7,251 kWh. Depending on when the
    plant was put in operation for the one-year test (assuming at the latest
    February 16) this indicates an average consumption of about 10 to 20
    kWh per hour. The Service Address on the statement is 7861 NW 46th
    Street, Doral, FL 33166-5470, which is the same as the official address
    listed for JM Products, and also where photos were taken that according
    to visitors to the plant looked like the place they visited. The amount
    charged is $1,266, while the amount for the previous month was $309,
    which is about a quarter, possibly indicating some early test activity.

    This statement proves that electricity corresponding to what the 1MW
    plant should have consumed at a successful COP of about 50 has been
    consumed at the address reportedly being where the test was undertaken.
    It doesn’t prove any production by the customer, nor anything about the
    amount of energy produced by the MW plant, and consequently nothing
    about the COP. My source is not Rossi.”

    • Mats002

      Good reliable info! As usual with LENR input power is managable, output is much harder.

      Of course some other source of input energy is possible but nevertheless a good start.

  • Engineer48

    To who ever can answer these questions.

    I’m interested to know more about the Dog Bone HotCat reactors that were tested at Lugano.

    1) Were these reactors manufactured by IH as I have read?

    2) Did IH test the reactors COP prior to shipping them to the testers?

    3) If they were tested, what was the COP & info on any other tests that were performed prior to shipping?

    4) If they were not tested why would IH ship untested reactors to the testers?

    5) Did any IH people visit the test site or assist in the testing?

    Thanks in advance for your reply….

    • Obvious

      1. Yes.
      Rossi and Darden have said so, as well as the Lugano report.
      The rest of your questions I have seen no direct info for, although the general evidence seems to be that the Lugano reactor was not used before the test. Presumably it was expected to work.

      • Engineer48

        Why would IH ship a reactor they knew did not work as per their claim they never could substantiate Rossi’s work.

        The Lugano reactor was their build. Now they expect us to believe they developed a product that they never achieved a COP > 1? Very hard to believe.

        • Obvious

          One would tend to think that the design had been used before, and was expected to function. The winding pattern is very specific, as well as the fit of all the pieces, based on the patent application photos of the parts (converted to drawings later).
          Such a high current design would need some testing to confirm that it would not melt or short out immediately, IMO.

          • Engineer48

            My point is the Dog Bone design must have been tested at some time and found to achieve some expected COP.

            If it had a COP <=1 why ship it to Lugano to be subjected to independent verification?

            As for the shipping without testing, as a manufacturer, well past manufacturer, I can assure that no reputable manufacturer would ship an untested product, which would be run at 1,300C, for 30 days, into a independent verification process. No way would that ever happen. It is just opening the door to Murphy causing chaos.

          • Obvious

            I agree.

          • Engineer48

            Which implies that the IH statement about never being able to substantiate Rossi is not the truth.

            Their Dog Bone product makes their statement seem very strange.

          • Obvious

            I don’t know how or if COP was tested, but the Lugano device is a liability nightmare to hand out. It is electrically not far from wrapping a few coat hangers around a tube. Without the special control box, it is fire and death waiting to happen, if the main breaker was big enough to deliver the device’s maximum potential ampacity for a few seconds.

          • Engineer48

            So what is new?

            1,300C is HOT. If placed in the hands of someone not qualified to install and test it properly, sure it could damage property, people and maybe cause death.

            Same can be said for any high power / high temp device. Ever mishandle a Oxy torch or either of the gas bottles? Or a high power Arc welder? Or seen what happens when a high rpm grinding wheel explodes or molten metal flows across a shop floor that has some moisture content?

          • Obvious

            The thing is capable on paper of at least 66,000 W output until it fails, which would not be long. I’d sooner light O before A than plug the Lugano device into a circuit meant to deliver it’s peak power.

          • Engineer48

            I design control systems. Not a biggie to do. To the industrial heat world, the Dog Bone is a kiddy toy.

            Every play with a 40MW boiler with 1,500C exhaust products and 600C subcritical steam at very high pressure? Contact with either will do a very nasty and instant kill.

            Anyway the conversation has moved away from my intent, which was IH built the Dog Bone and shipped it to Lugano. That is public fact. There is no way they did not test the device’s COP before shipping it. To do anything else says they are incompetent.

          • Obvious

            Agreed again.
            What I mean is that device design had to be tested, a lot, to be sure that it could be made to work at all. Nobody normally thinks to build a heater like that. Usually the heater will have enough resistance to limit itself. In this case, the controller is the limit, and the heater will just take anything you give it until it or something in the supply line melts or a breaker thankfully shuts it down.

  • Josh G

    Really, you should take your own advice and just let this go — you just keep putting your foot deeper and deeper down your throat. You’ve already lost this argument and you don’t even realize it.

    You’ve got things upside-down and inside-out. I’m not the one who is “determined to believe” in anything. My belief that there was a conspiracy to bury cold fusion is based on evidence. My understanding of how the incentives of academia work to marginalize experimental results that challenge the existing paradigm (as well as the existing flow of grant money) is based on well understood dynamics of the scientific field based on historical studies of science (like Kuhn) and boatloads of studies of peer review, in addition to my own personal experience. You don’t even need to posit a conspiracy to understand that. All you need is a brain and dash of common sense, both of which you sorely lack.

    You are the one who is determined to deny any conspiracy, despite all the evidence for it. You are the one who is determined to believe in some fairy-tale notion of science and academia where everyone is a champion of the truth, no matter how painful. I wish I could live in your fantasy world, but I prefer to deal with things as they are.

    As for a magic .pdf that will provide evidence for cold fusion — just have a look-see over at lenr-canr.org. You’ll find lots of .pdfs there. I’m not going to bother linking to any of them, because I know how this works: you’ve established an arbitrary threshold about the evidence you need to prove that LENR is real, but as soon as I send you a pdf that will satisfy you, you will change the goal posts. Repeatedly. I’m too weary of shills to play that game with you, as I don’t care playing Charlie Brown to your Lucy. Anybody who has seriously studied the LENR phenomenon knows that your criteria have been met. You’ll have to find someone else to take your bait. If you’re genuinely curious, go ask Jed Rothwell. But since you’re not genuinely interested in LENR (which I infer from your ignorance of the field), I can’t imagine you’ll actually do that.