Mats Lewan Calls for Group Effort to Get to the Truth on Rossi/IH Affair

Mats Lewan has posted on his An Impossible Invention site a call for a concerted effort among people involved in and following the E-Cat story to join forces in a truth-finding campaign so we can get a clear understanding of what is going on in the story of Andrea Rossi, the E-Cat and Industrial Heat.

The link is here: https://animpossibleinvention.com/2016/04/20/lets-join-forces-to-bring-out-the-truth-on-rossi-ih-affair/

Mats lays out some of the things he has learned from various parties (most of which have been discussed at length here) and ends with this challenge and invitation:

Even if we consider the probability very low for LENR to be possible, I urge that you honestly consider two things:

  • In case it really works, would you like a possible transition to LENR based energy in the world to be governed mostly by the work and actions of lawyers and lobbyists at APCO Worldwide and Jones Day?
  • Admitting that there might be at least a minor possibility that the E-Cat and LENR is valid, on which side would you prefer to be—those who fight for it to be used to get away from fossil fuels and provide cheap and clean energy to everyone on Earth as soon as possible, or those who are trying to stop it, referring to the possibility that Rossi is a fraudster, or at least slow down the transition in order to protect some powerful people’s interests?

Having answered these two questions, you can make up your mind on how you would like to contribute to the outcome of the affair that’s going on. And whatever decision you take, I strongly suggest that we all join forces to bringing out the truth and make this affair and its implications as visible to the world as possible.

I also suggest that all people who are working with replications attempts and believe that they have a positive result, try to validate the result with the help of independent institutions and make them public.

Lastly, I guarantee that I will protect the identity of people who contact me to share sensible information, if that is required. 

I am still puzzled by the numerous apparent contradictions that we are hearing from various sources, and I know I am not alone. One would assume that more will be revealed in the court case, and of course in the ERV report — but for the legal proceedings to play out could take years (e.g. it took 11 years for the US Supreme Court to finally resolve the Writer’s Guild vs. Google suit over Google Books — and I think we are probably dealing with something more important than the Google Books database here).

I hope Mats’ campaign helps uncover more pertinent information. Maybe it will turn out to be a parallel trial — one held in the court of public opinion on the internet.

  • roseland67

    Mats,
    You’re leading questions sound like they are written from a lawyer meant to illicit only 1 answer that supports your Very specific viewpoint.
    Publish the report, recipe, methods and sequence of operation and then replicate.
    IF, LENR is what we have been lead to believe it is,
    Rossi will be covered by his patent applications,
    If it is not, Rossi is $10 million richer from the $$ he conned out of IH, (good for him), and this entire charade can finally end.

    • Bob

      While I do not know Mats Lewan personally, I have had a high regard for his publications and posts he has made in the past…
      .
      However, I have to agree with roseland67 that the lead in questions are extremely anti-Industrial Heat / Tom Darden.

      “……actions of lawyers and lobbyists at APCO Worldwide and Jones Day?” This extremely negative implication has to read “who wants IH / Tom Darden to be involved” as well since IH / Tom Darden hired APCO & Jones Day, any negative inclination to them has to be transferred to Darden as well!.
      .
      Rossi filed a $100 million dollar lawsuit! If someone filed that big a lawsuit against you, would you not hire competent lawyers to defend you? This statement is uncharacteristic of Lewan or a good journalist. It is already judging them guilty of criminal action and of intentional immoral behavior! I am very disappointed in these lead in questions.
      .
      Based upon historical business successes, I would MUCH rather have IH/Darden take the business lead of introducing LENR to the world than Rossi. Rossi has shown no business acumen at all in his history. He may be a great Edisonian inventor, but not so good at bringing something to production.
      .
      Tom Darden has a proven history and publicly acknowledges that his goal is to help resolve the world’s pollution problem, specifically the fossil fuel contribution. How can one state that he is trying to stop or slow down LENR introduction? To do so is to claim his entire history and reputation is a sham cover, acting as a puppet to the mysterious and unnamed “powers that be”! Is there ANY FACTUAL evidence that this is the case?
      .
      Unless Mats has a reasonable amount of very reliable information that Darden is a criminal, then this is conspiracy theory mania talk and not becoming of an unbiased reporter. If Mats has this information, then he should share it with us as the basis of these statements. He does not have to divulge his sources. He has earned a high degree of my respect and I would give much credence to information he supplied. However if unsubstantiated, remarks such as these belong more to the category that the “QuarkX generates electricity, heat, light, direct powered thrust and who knows what else.” Until substantiated, it is just words.
      .
      Mats, please provide your information as to why IH / Darden are actively trying to stop LENR / Cold fusion. Just because Rossi brought a lawsuit, it does not automatically mean they are guilty of anything! The jury is still out on this case!
      .
      You have earned respect and you have earned the right to defend your position! Please do so!
      Sincerely.

    • Rossi Fan

      In its current state it can be sold for much more than $10. Full disclosure and testing before you buy is not possible because Rossi can claim that IH has some key ingredient needed to show/demo and IH can claim Rossi has it. Who knows if IH/Rossi did not take China Inc. for a $200 ride and now they are both unaccountable and pointing the finger at each other?

  • Dr. Mike

    I believe that any concerns of the validity of LENR will be answered in the ERV report, assuming that the report passes peer review on this website. Hopefully all scientific questions that are raised by reviewers will be answered and any errors noted will be corrected. Rossi certainly could use a peer reviewed ERV report in support of his court case.

    • Warthog

      You are making the error of equating the “validity of LENR” with the “validity of Rossi”, which are two completely different things. I think (and have thought all along) that Rossi really has something, but that he has lied frequently in order to mislead others who might be (or become) his competitors.

      • Dr. Mike

        Warthog,
        I agree that Rossi has not always told the truth in an effort to protect his IP, but I still believe a solid ERV report will validate LENR. The total heat energy supplied by the E-cat unit will be in excess of 8,4000,000kW-hr. The customer should clearly know if he only paid for a small fraction of this energy in his electric bill.

  • Dr. Mike

    I believe that any concerns of the validity of LENR will be answered in the ERV report, assuming that the report passes peer review on this website. Hopefully all scientific questions that are raised by reviewers will be answered and any errors noted will be corrected. Rossi certainly could use a peer reviewed ERV report in support of his court case.

    • roseland67

      Dr. Mike,
      I respectfully disagree,
      Only Replication of excess heat and fuel/ash transmutation will confirm the validity of LENR.
      The ERV report, in and of itself, is merely a science project that may indicate further study is needed.

      • Nonsense, a product in the market will certainly do as well. The ERV report is a contractual document that both parties agreed upon. WHY are YOU ignoring this fact?

        • psi2u2

          Yes, a rather more particular type of “science experiment,” in other words.

          Still, evidence for transmutation should be provided in any thorough report. Its absence would be a glaring omission at this stage. I realize that full analysis of the ash may be considered a trade secret, but the report must address this question in some reasoned fashion or it will be a real weakness, i.e. providing at least some before and after values confirming transmutation.

        • roseland67

          Sifferkoll,
          There are supposedly Ecats in the market now, military, Miami customer, the original Ecat customer in Milan, etc, however they have done nothing to convince anyone that LENR exists

          • Yes, and even though we don’t know if they exist, we can be pretty sure that these customers knows if it works. And actually, I would say that many people are convinced. Convincing everyone is impossible and not important, because denial is such a strong force.

            Every test, however flawless and/or scentific, will and can be disputed with ad-hominem/fraud arguments. This is why the pathoskepts like to promote this kind of solution … It’s the trap they are building and unfortunately a lot of people fall into it, because of their belief in honesty.

            And as I said, the ERV is important from a contractual standpoint, this FACT you still ignore.

          • SG

            Most military and private customers are self-interested. In fact, companies have fiduciary responsibilities to their shareholders to maximize profits. There would be zero incentive to share with others. Secrecy within military is par for the course, and again, no incentive for sharing. They have no reason to convince anyone else that LENR exists, and in fact, have every motivation to do exactly the opposite.

      • Dr. Mike

        roseland67,
        I also would like to see replication and analysis of “ash’ products as confirming data on LENR. However, if I had to chose between seeing a replication of 10%-30% excess heat or data from a system running for 350 days that operated at a COP of greater than 50, I think I would rather see the latter. (Note I am assuming that the ERV report will support the claim in the court documents.) I think I will be able to read the report and determine if the potential errors in data taking are small compared to the claimed COP of 50. Also, I am sure Rossi will have the ash in the end of use devices analyzed, but I don’t believe the data will be released anytime soon.

    • Warthog

      You are making the error of equating the “validity of LENR” with the “validity of Rossi”, which are two completely different things. I think (and have thought all along) that Rossi really has something, but that he has lied frequently in order to mislead others who might be (or become) his competitors.

      • Dr. Mike

        Warthog,
        I agree that Rossi has not always told the truth in an effort to protect his IP, but I still believe a solid ERV report will validate LENR. The total heat energy supplied by the E-cat unit will be in excess of 8,4000,000kW-hr. The customer should clearly know if he only paid for a small fraction of this energy in his electric bill.

  • Bob K

    Maybe it’s just my way of interpreting Matts’ latest statements, but it seems he’s being pulled more towards the IH side of the argument. In the past he seemed to have been persuaded by AR’s credibility, but now the opposing view is beginning to create doubt.

    • SG

      My sense is he is trying to be as objective as possible. Of all of the people who recognize the inconsistencies in IH’s position, it will be Mats. After all, he literally wrote the book on Mr. Rossi and knows the situation perhaps better than anybody else.

  • Bob

    I meant to include below, that on the other hand, I may have completely misread Mats statements and understood them incorrectly. If so, my apologies.

  • Bob

    I meant to include below, that on the other hand, I may have completely misread Mats statements and understood them incorrectly. If so, my apologies.

  • Christina

    There are many people who’ve said they’ve seen the E-Cat and reported that it works and there are other people who’ve made remarkable progress in their own labs, so why doubt the existence of the E-Cat/lenr now?

    We are not babes in the woods; we know truth when we are presented with even a small pieces of it.

    Let’s support Rossi.

    • Axil Axil

      The fact that the year long test was completed means that the Rossi system is functional. If the E-Cat produced no COP, the test would not have lasted more than a day. IH tracked the test and they must have had an idea of how large the COP was from an order of magnitude perspective. Rossi is believable.

      • Albert D. Kallal

        Without information about the customer, then additional purchases etc. have little weight. Until such time additional information about the customer is known, then additional orders etc. holds little weight.

        I 100% agree that additional orders bodes well for Rossi, but ONLY when additional information about the customer is known does additional orders become credible. In other words, it likely true that additional ecats were ordered, but until we have additional information about the customer, then these additional orders don’t mean a lot.

        The fact that IH seems to have little if any worry about the customer suggests this “customer” has a conflict of interest that taints their testimony. If the customer is happy with the ecat performance, then IH don’t have a leg to stand on, do they? So one has to ask why IH does not care one bit about this customer?

        Regards,
        Albert D. Kallal
        Edmonton, Alberta Canada

        • HS61AF91

          Let Leonardo have some time to get that robot factory working, and then, while the suit may drag on, the ordered e-Cats performance will speak for themselves. As more customers use e-Cats, the their identities will abound. The USA may be a importer before it becomes and exporter of e-Cats, and that would be a shame. Thanks to the non-payment of contractual agreement. Best to settle out of court and get on with producing the products.

          • Albert D. Kallal

            Yup – it really that simple! – lets hope this occurs ASAP!

  • Christina

    There are many people who’ve said they’ve seen the E-Cat and reported that it works and there are other people who’ve made remarkable progress in their own labs, so why doubt the existence of the E-Cat/lenr now?

    We are not babes in the woods; we know truth when we are presented with even a small pieces of it.

    Let’s support Rossi.

    • Axil Axil

      The fact that the year long test was completed means that the Rossi system is functional. If the E-Cat produced no COP, the test would not have lasted more than a day. IH tracked the test and they must have had an idea of how large the COP was from an order of magnitude perspective. Rossi is believable.

      • Alex Fenrick

        Incorrect Axil, that is false logic. Just because the system was tested for a year does not mean it ultimately produced the claimed COP. If IH’s claim is true, IH most likely would have had high hopes from the beginning and stuck it out hoping he would eventually achieve the claimed COP. They have a huge investment in Rossi and E-Cat…they really had no choice but to stick it out till the end. I am not saying I know if Rossi and/or IH achieved the claimed COP…just saying your logic is not correct. Not trying to be argumentative, I just believe we are too far into details at this point to go on bad logic. Opinions are one thing…I am deeply guilty of having one lol…but we have to try to protect the logic by all checking each other.

        • It’s not black or white you know. Opinions could be more or less logical or depend merely on emotions. The pathoskept cult is usually built on emotions of hatred and fear. When put into a corner they often seems to say they they do it because of hatred of … something, someone. Very often they say they hate fraudsters (on pure opinion, no evidence required) or hate pseudoscience … Does that make sense or what???

          • psi2u2

            Yes, I have encountered exactly this style of resistance to new knowledge in my own field as a Shakespeare scholar. When you try to find a rational foundation for discussion it is always refused on the grounds of some higher moral standing, a moral standing that expresses itself sometimes in the most hatefully irrational way. The same FUD factor seems to inhabit the internet to stir up disinformation to slow down the inevitable collapse of an intellectually moribund establishment that is adhered to with religious faith, even though the question is purely a historical and literary one.

            I am really glad to have Alex Fenwick (among others) here asking tough questions. If all “Skeptics” were as smart and polite as he is I don’t think anyone would have a problem with them – because they help to lift up the discussion by providing content for discussion, not dominate by insults.

          • Alex Fenrick

            Thank you Psi…I really do appreciate that. While I have said that I believe extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof…I think that many of the skeptics forget that they must be just as diligent in backing skeptical claims as they expect from those on the opposite side of the fence. I honestly and sincerely hope that my poking and prodding into things that do not make sense to me personally in this case turn out to be complete conspiracy because LENR really would change the world no matter what any skeptic wants to believe. I will also take this opportunity to publicly say that the individuals in here on both sides of the fence are some of the smartest people…and the hardest to debate anywhere haha. I will admit sometimes I get emotionally charged by the conversations…but I never take it personally…in all honesty I am honored to get to spar with such brilliant minds in here. The lay person would be so lost by the discussion in here …in about 30 seconds. While I may appear to be a “pathoskeptic” to some in here lol….I honestly do still hold hope for LENR success for the world.

          • Alex Fenrick

            Sifferkoll…while I agree 100% with your perspective on opinions not always being black or white, but that doesn’t change the fact that Axil used false logic to articulate his point…that is just plain bad analysis. While the pathoskeptics as well as skeptics often run off emotions, whatever they may be, the pathofaithers are no different. We can encourage all the speculation and theories we want…and we should do so to help navigate through this interesting situation…but what’s good for the goose is good for the gander. We need to keep logic solid if we are to have an honest discussion. With that being said….I will admit trolls come out from under the bridges to forums like this and make what I just said kinda useless sometimes….the trolls do NOT help a skeptic prove his/her point lol.

          • Well, faith against hate … I guess you can make it into an ethical question if you like. Sort of like Star Wars …

            But, as you know, in the absence of enough facts, the pathoskept hate cult have consistently taken the “ad-hominem”/”guilty until proven otherwise” standpoint, while the “faith” side usually analyse the situation using logic and reason from the facts/statements available, even though some of them might not have a probability of 1 and has to be estimated. That’s what I call analysis. But you might have a different view. I still have the feeling you prefer to paint stuff either black or white …

          • Alex Fenrick

            I personally am interested in sifting through the details that bubble up in a case like this. The major points have been beaten like a dead horse at this point…but as the old saying goes…the devil is in the details. You have to admit there is a bias toward Rossi on this site, so from your perspective I would assume I do appear to paint things in black and white…but that is perspective driven. Lets be honest…we are all kinda just sitting here on our hands waiting for any new details day by day…speculation and theory is really all we have today. Your perspective as one on the side of faith will by nature of course differs from that of a skeptic’s perspective…and that is okay…and kinda necessary. I have deep doubt in Rossi for many reasons at this point…but I have said many times that I am not denying the possibility of LENR. I would think you have to admit that is a pretty big example of me NOT painting this situation black or white. With all of that being said….I do love your Star Wars tie in…awesome and admittedly often fitting!! lol

      • Albert D. Kallal

        Without information about the customer, then additional purchases etc. have little weight. Until such time additional information about the customer is known, then additional orders etc. holds little weight.

        I 100% agree that additional orders bodes well for Rossi, but ONLY when additional information about the customer is known does additional orders become credible. In other words, it likely true that additional ecats were ordered, but until we have additional information about the customer, then these additional orders don’t mean a lot.

        The fact that IH seems to have little if any worry about the customer suggests this “customer” has a conflict of interest that taints their testimony. If the customer is happy with the ecat performance, then IH don’t have a leg to stand on, do they? So one has to ask why IH does not care one bit about this customer?

        Regards,
        Albert D. Kallal
        Edmonton, Alberta Canada

        • HS61AF91

          Let Leonardo have some time to get that robot factory working, and then, while the suit may drag on, the ordered e-Cats performance will speak for themselves. As more customers use e-Cats, the their identities will abound. The USA may be a importer before it becomes and exporter of e-Cats, and that would be a shame. Thanks to the non-payment of contractual agreement. Best to settle out of court and get on with producing the products.

          • Albert D. Kallal

            Yup – it really that simple! – lets hope this occurs ASAP!

    • roseland67

      Christina,
      Once his experiment is replicated, yes,
      Until then, no.

      • Frechette

        The customer has requested 3 additional 1 MW E-Cats carbon copies of the one which has just completed a one year shake down cruise. That’s all the proof I need.

        Incidentally IH is not all it’s cracked up to be. They have a shady past in some of their previous dealings particularly in New Jersey.

        • Pat

          That 1 yr test was not to find out if it “worked” – it was to find out if it was reliable.

          • cashmemorz

            So step one is proof of concept= it works more or less as expected.
            Step two is does it work reliably=self sustained mode and reasonably high COP>+6
            Step 3 is confirm(bullet proof it) that it works, to show that step 2 was not a fluke=substantiation by way of more satisfied customers using it in a real industrial setting. (step 4 is final payment to the inventor in this case Andrea Rossi). Simple stupid seems to be the best route.

        • psi2u2

          I agree, but only pending confirmation.

  • Axil Axil

    Regarding: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_District_Court_for_the_Southern_District_of_Florida

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3c/Cecilia_Altonaga.jpg

    Cecilia Maria Altonaga (born December 26, 1962) is a Florida United States district court judge. She is the first Cuban-American woman to be appointed as a federal judge in the United States.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cecilia_Altonaga

    This case will be handled in federal court. WHY.

    Here is a post from Bob Cook that holds concern: why try this case in federal court:

    It could be that Rossi has received some US Government order associated with the new patents he has been working on or one or more of the patents listed in Exhibit B of the Agreement between IH, Rossi and others, making them secret. That is the reason the complaint was filed in the Federal Court in Miami instead of the local Miami Civil Circuit Court, which was the specified location in the original agreement for resolution of disagreements between IH and Rossi and others who are parties to the Agreement. The local Civil Court could not handle such secrecy.

    Rossi was probably advised that the local Miami court would not handle the Civil suit or got the Courts advice to this effect.

    IH does not want to pay because the good IP is now secret under US law, and the provisions of section 13.4 providing for sharing IP stemming from the listed IP in Exhibit B of the Agreement are moot.

    I think the Agreement does provide for sharing new technology developed by the “IH Team” which Rossi was part of—see Section 13.4 noted above. Note that the Exhibit list includes a patent for conversion of photons into electricity. However, it is not clear whether or not this patent is valid for conversion of charged particles into a EMF or other source of electricity. It may be this invention that is at the center of any secrecy order. In my mind such a invention would have a lot of military significance and would probably become the target of a US secrecy order.

    Secrecy Orders can throw monkey wrenches into the best laid plans of inventors and venture capitalists IMHO. IH may be in hot water with their backers. I do not know what they can do to back away from facts they have provided such backers when faced with a secrecy order. That concern may have been the reason for the Dutch entity IH formed to transfer pertinent IP to it, which may be outside the scope of a potential future order. It may have been that when the Dutch company was formed there was no secrecy established yet under the US invention secrecy act, which was written about 1951—and old liability for inventors associated with new strategic inventions—especially those of military significance and energy production.

    All the above thoughts are merely my conjectures, and I have no knowledge of their reality or budding reality.
    ————————————————————
    Does the US government has an interest in this case?

    Why would Rossi want the case moved to federal court?

    http://www.lockelord.com/~/media/Files/NewsandEvents/News/2011/02/The%20InHouse%20Legal%20Professionals%20Guide%20to%20Removin__/Files/RemovingCases-Cunningham/FileAttachment/RemovingCases-Cunningham.pdf

    The most likely cause is as follows:

    (2) The district courts shall have original jurisdiction of any civil action in which

    the matter in controversy exceeds the sum or value of $5,000,000, exclusive of

    interest and costs, and is a class action in which—

    (A) any member of a class of plaintiffs is a citizen of a State different from

    any defendant;

    (B) any member of a class of plaintiffs is a foreign state or a citizen or

    subject of a foreign state and any defendant is a citizen of a State; or

    (C) any member of a class of plaintiffs is a citizen of a State and any

    defendant is a foreign state or a citizen or subject of a foreign state.

    • Axil Axil

      https://www.flsd.uscourts.gov/?page_id=228

      Audio Tape Ordering Instructions

      To order an audio tape, complete a Transcript Order form below (Select “Copy of tape”) and return the order form along with payment to the Court Reporter Coordinator, 400 North Miami Avenue, 8th Floor South, Room 8N09, Miami, FL 33128-7716.

      The fee for a copy of an audio tape is $30.00 per tape. (Assistant U.S. Attorneys, Deputy Federal Public Defenders, and appointed members of the Federal Indigent Panel are not charged for copies of audio tapes). Note: Electronic Magistrate hearing tapes are available for $30.00 but are not considered official records of the Court.

      Payment must be received prior to the order being processed. Payment may be made by cashier’s check, certified bank check, business or corporate check, government issued check, or money order drawn on a major bank or the United States Postal Service made payable to Clerk, US District Court. Personal checks are not accepted. When payment has been received, the duplicate tape will be ready within three (3) working days. You will be notified by the Court Reporter Coordinator’s Office when the tape is ready. Once payment has been received, the order cannot be canceled.
      ====================================
      Who will put these tapes on the internet?

      ———————————

      https://www.flsd.uscourts.gov/?page_id=223

      Ordering Non-Appeal Court Transcripts
      Questions:

      If the information you need to order a transcript is not provided below, please contact the District’s Court Reporter Coordinator at 305-523-5635 or email: flsd_crsection@flsd.uscourts.gov (link sends e-mail).

      General Transcripts:

      To order a transcript, you must telephone, mail or email the Court Reporter who was present at the court proceeding. To determine which reporter was present, display the docket report for the case, find the date of the court proceeding for which you want to order the transcript, and then look at the minutes for the proceeding. The minutes will show the name of the Court Reporter. See the Court Reporters’ contact list below. If the Court Reporter is not listed or if a proceeding was recorded electronically, please complete the Online Transcript Order Form. Once completed, the online form will be emailed to the Court Reporter Section to be processed. A confirmation email will be sent to the requestor. The form is also available in PDF Format (see below) which can be mailed it to the Court Reporter Coordinator, 400 North Miami Avenue, 8th Floor South, Room 8N09, Miami, FL 33128-7716 or fax it to: 305-523-5639.

      Transcripts for Parties Proceeding Under the Criminal Justict Act (CJA):

      To order a transcript for a party proceeding under the Criminal Justice Act (CJA), complete a CJA24, Authorization and Voucher Payment of Transcript Form below and mail it to the Court Reporter who covered the proceeding [see below to find the Court Reporters’ contact information]. Do not electronically sign or email CJA24 form. If the Court Reporter is not listed as an Official Court Reporter, mail the CJA24 to the Court Reporter Coordinator at the above address. Note: If different reporters covered various proceedings for which you are ordering transcripts, a CJA24 must be submitted for each reporter. If the same reporter covered all the proceedings for which you are ordering transcripts, it is only necessary to submit one CJA24.

      Transcript Cost and Payment

      At the time you order the transcript by mail, email, or telephone or upon receipt by the Court Reporter of your Transcript Non-Appeal Order Form, the Court Reporter or Transcriber will inform you of the cost of the transcript (see the Fee Schedule for current rates set by the Judicial Conference of the United States). Payment for a transcript is to be made to the Court Reporter or Transcriber. A transcript order will not be processed until payment is received. Once a transcript has been prepared, an order cannot be canceled.

      Court Reporter Contact Information

      Transcript Non-Appeal Order Form

      CJA24, Authorization and Voucher for Payment of Transcript
      ——————————————————
      Who will put these transcripts on the internet

      • Frank Acland

        Thanks, Axil. I wonder how how long each tape is — a day’s worth of proceedings?

        • Axil Axil

          https://www.flsd.uscourts.gov/?page_id=445

          Daily Transcript

          A transcript to be delivered following adjournment and prior to the normal opening hour of the court on the following morning whether or not it actually is a court day $6.66

          ———————–

          Ordinary Transcript
          A transcript to be delivered within thirty (30) calendar days after receipt of an order $4.02

          • roseland67

            so looking forward to these proceedings,
            I hope it goes to trial.
            Any/all of the “secret” customers will be subpoenaed and no evidence or no one will be able to hide behind an NDA.

          • Albert D. Kallal

            Transcripts are far better. You can waste 2 hours on a tape, and get 3 tid bits of information. Worse such a format is not searchable. Unless someone going to convert them into text, such formats are really bad from an information point of view (you cannot time shift and only “read” as fast as people talk).

            So you can spend 6 hours listing to tapes, or 3 minutes with a searchable document. At least we know the information is available.

            I would rather see an ecat at some customer then watch paint dry, watch grass grow, or start listening to court documents – these things drag on for years.

            You have to understand that the MAIN job of lawyers is to drag this out AS LONG AS POSSIBLE!

            Again the goal: Drag things out AS LONG AS POSSIBLE!

            As a result of the above legal goal, then this gives rise to ***WHEN*** possible the lawyers goal is to keep the conflict going! This gives rise to parties OFTEN taking unreasonable positions as a starting position (which then is moved by each set of lawyers to some middle ground).

            I can assure everyone here that real courts are NOTHING like a Hollywood movie – they are boring as hell, drag on for as long as possible, and the goal of the lawyers is to keep the conflict going on as long as possible – there no other real goal at all.

            This is a 10 to 15 year make work project for the lawyers. In fact, such cases often go beyond the lifespan of those involved. The case will stop when one of the parties runs out of money for their lawyers, and ONLY then.

            I suppose the case could flush out the “customer”, but given that IH public says the ecat don’t work, IH obviously don’t fear or have any worry about this customer, do they?

            This much suggests that the customer is not independent, and is not credible and is of little or no concern for IH.

            I would “temper” your hope and excitement about this trial, as they tend to be like watching grass grow over many years.

            Regards,
            Albert D. Kallal
            Edmonton, Alberta Canada

          • Bob K

            I thought this was a Jury trial? 10-15 years seems a bit long to sequester a jury.

        • Axil Axil

          It looks like one of the output formats that can be ordered for the transcript is E-Mail. so that format must be digital.

      • Ted-Z

        If there is a secrecy order than the trial might be fake and the tapes will be of no value, just a theatrical performance by all involved, including Rossi (acting as ordered).

    • Curbina

      I like your take on it. I have brought up issue of this possibility a number of times and it never was much taken in account. The think is that The secrecy of inventions act can render inventions secret under criteria that are also secret. The only known list of criteria was obtained through FOIA and is from the 1970’s. It has a section that lists energy producing and storing technologies in which LENR could perfectly match criteria for secrecy. So, this has always been a possibility, and there’s no way To know if it has happened or not, as The list of secret inventions is also entirely secret.

      • “it never was much taken in account”

        People often don’t want to listen to such warnings – it’s easier to dismiss them as ‘conspiracy theories’ or otherwise rationalise away such uncomfortable information or speculation.

        • Curbina

          That might be correct, but the legal framework for deeming an invention secret exists, so there’s no conspiracy theory about, and the federation of American scientists (FAS) has been voicing its concern about the threat To innovation that secret inventions imply for years.

    • Bob Greenyer

      Axil – We were warned by a board member of the MFMP who had direct knowledge of the workings that this kind of thing could occur and is why Quantum Heat CIC is a UK entity, and research is conducted LIVE and in multiple countries.

      It is a bit difficult to make something a secret when it has already been public – however, they can of course do what they did to Steak & Cheese etc sites that during the Iraq Invasion, journalists published ultra high resolution photos of mass ‘colatoral damage’ and unrest carnage that the main stream media could not show… it was made illegal to disseminate or own images of the kind that could turn public opinion, I understand why, just a few of those images of scores of civilian body parts spread out over a wide area would turn even the most gun ho lounge general.

      • SG

        Yes, it is a stark possibility, one that I also have been warning about for some time. The only certain way to avoid a secrecy order is to not file a patent. At the end of the day, the open source MFMP effort to bring working LENR knowledge to the greater world might be the only way possible without the knowledge being buried by governments for decades or longer.

        • Or – Rossi’s lawsuit brings the skies down on him with such force that he decides to release all of his IP into the public domain via the internet before he and his dreams sink below the waves…

          OK, that’s probably fantasy – but personally I’m becoming seriously concerned about watching my darkest predictions on this blog play out in reality. I am more convinced than ever that LENR will nor be allowed a free run to market and the only way we’ll ever see it deployed is in the hands of the existing energy cartel, at a time that suits their needs..

      • builditnow

        Correct, my professor at university developed a high speed metal punch running many times the speed of equivalent punches at the time, applied for a patent and was slapped with the equivalent of a secrecy order. In this case it was a silly move by a government pen pusher because it killed a useful development dead in its tracks.

      • Curbina

        Bob, the UK, Canada, Germany, France, and most of the developed world, also have patent secrecy equivalent laws. This is an issue I have reviewed widely and commented at some point here or elsewhere. The list of possible technologies of the Uk is available, albeit the published list is censored (I think I downloaded a non censored version at some point, but finding in my archives is proving challenging). You can read the list here: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/307009/p-securitylist.pdf

        You’ll inmediately deduct that LENR can fall in several of the categories listed.

        • Bob Greenyer

          That maybe so, but the US exerts its influence to ban other states from using inventions invented in its territory.

          • Until recently the UK would have done whatever it was told to do by Washington, but there have been some recent signs that this short leash has grown a little longer. It’s not something I would depend on though.

          • Bob Greenyer

            Sure – that is why we also work to support many nations research in whatever way we can.

    • Private Citizen

      For me the strongest argument against Rossi having the goods has been that Uncle Sam had not yet stolen the tech and gagged Rossi.

      If the technology is seized now, it will take a PR miracle to hide the fact that LENR works as Rossi says. Perhaps it will take the form of a fake trial where Rossi appears to be guilty of fraud.

      If real, would also be a miracle if any number of foreign intelligence agencies haven’t laughably easily acquired the tech, via phone taps, bugs, hacks, burglaries, infiltration, bribes or extortion of involved parties.

    • SG

      Yes, I agree, there is a possibility that one or more of Leonardo’s patents have had a U.S. secrecy order imposed. There is some hope, however, in that some applications have already been published (indicating that it passed the secrecy review and was allowed to go forward), and one has already issued (no going back). Mr. Rossi has indicated that his current tech is primarily based in the granted patent. So, even though some of the finer points of the e-Cat technology *may* be tied up in secrecy orders for decades to come, there might be just enough information in the public to be gleaned by those who wish to bring the technology to the world.

    • Omega Z

      Axil Axil

      One thing stands out in your post.
      ->”a patent for conversion of photons into electricity.”
      Rossi would have filed such a patent about 2 months before the test concluded.

      It has been said that the Government is very touchy about MHD technology.

      Recall (BLP)Brilliant Light Power’s Randell Mills proposed MagnetoHydroDynamic MHD Electricity Generation.
      Very shortly after that announcement, Mills changed course and suggested using the substantially less efficient Photovoltaics (PV).
      Some asked why.

      • Curbina

        And MHD is included by name in the list of technologies that can be deeemed secret under the Secrecy of Inventions Act.

        An this is the list of 1971, a newer one has never been released in spite of several FOIA requests.

        http://fas.org/sgp/othergov/invention/pscrl.pdf

    • This should probably posted to Mats Lewan’s ‘evidence pile’ at https://animpossibleinvention.com/2016/04/20/lets-join-forces-to-bring-out-the-truth-on-rossi-ih-affair/

  • SG

    My sense is he is trying to be as objective as possible. Of all of the people who recognize the inconsistencies in IH’s position, it will be Mats. After all, he literally wrote the book on Mr. Rossi and knows the situation perhaps better than anybody else.

  • Felix Meyer

    The claim of Rossi to obtain a COP over 50 is false!
    It seem, that the LENR process is working, but the real COP have seen is 1.1 to 1.5
    The measuring of the E-CAT is WRONG, as the main part, the water pump in the E-CAT is bad (This pump is used to “measure” the energy of the hot water. The amount of pumped water was wrong, as the pump was running about 50% max. speed, and the amount of indicated of water was 4 to 6 higher that the real amount!)
    Here was one point, where we see, how the cheating was done … !!!

    • Andreas Moraitis

      Since the energy is proportional to the mass of heated water, 6 times less water would still give a COP > 8.

    • Steve H

      How do you square that with the fact that he is using PID controlled, mass flow controllers to feed the water into the reactors!

    • Frank Acland

      Is this your opinion, or have you a source for this allegation?

      • psi2u2

        My thoughts exactly.

    • viking999

      And how do you explain the huge amount of kilowatts that was saved at the plant.

      • psi2u2

        That is not yet on record. It is claimed. I tend to believe it must be true, and if it is true it should vindicate Rossi. If not……well, like I said, I just think it is good to careful and stick to what is really in evidence, not based on mere verbal assurances.

    • It seems logical to assume that after one year IH suddenly find that that almost every single detail in the plant was defect or running at 1/10 of speed, or maybe there was an UFO involved or something explaining that there actually was no heat at all… for a year …

      • kdk

        Those aliens are Nefarious. They mosey around acting all pleasant, but every once in a while they lose their cool (!) and beam in Megawatts of energy at somebody. They have waited 3,000 years for their plans to finally come to fruition. V

        • psi2u2

          Makes sense to me.

        • Even our interstellar brethren are now falling under Rossi’s spell!

          • Axil Axil

            I beleive that the EcatX might be under a secrecy order because of its similarity to the EMDrive.

            The physics is very cutting edge and not easy to understand.

            Rossi let out that the ECatX produced thrust without propellant but Rossi latter took it back as a mistake or misunderstanding in language. Somebody might have muzzled Rossi.

            http://www.e-catworld.com/2016/04/04/now-thrust-from-the-e-cat/comment-page-1/

            The ECatX might use the same physics as the EMdrive to produce thrust, but would be far more powerful.

            The new EMDrive theory as follows

            http://www.examiner.com/article/has-the-impossible-em-drive-being-tested-by-nasa-finally-been-explained

            Assuming the radiation emitted by a LENR reactor is hawking radiation, it might be possible that the LENR reactor will accelerate in its frame of reference because it changes the nature of the vacuum in its frame of reference relative to the inertial frame of the universe. Hawking radiation makes virtual particles into real particles.

            Simply stated, if acceleration produces Unruh radiation then Hawking radiation will produce acceleration, if Unruh radiation is the same as Hawking radiation by the equivalence principle.

            A LENR reactor in space will produce a reactionless drive.

            Here is the reference that explains the justification for this statement:

            “Unruh radiation is the same as Hawking radiation by the equivalence principle.”

            Hawking radiation, Unruh radiation and the equivalence principle

            http://arxiv.org/abs/1102.5564

          • Alan DeAngelis
    • Pat

      Once you can operate in SSM, you can (and do) achieve a COP as high as you would care to calculate. In SSM, COP is no longer important.

    • Tom59

      LENR is working, cold fusion is real -fantastic!!!

    • Warthog

      No pump or any other special apparatus is needed to validate the report. All that is necessary is the “kilowatt” meter measuring the electricity flowing to the customer’s process. And a valid COP of even 1.1 “should” have every physicist in the world racing to his lab to replicate….ain’t happenin’, bro.

      • Guest

        you assume there is an actual “customer’s process”…

        Again, it’s unlikely to be the electricity in measure that’s in doubt, but rather what energy came out of it…

        • Warthog

          There is zero doubt that there was a process of some sort into which energy was flowing….even IH says there is/was.

          I have zero clue of what you second sentence is supposed to mean…..

          • psi2u2

            I think he means that unless you really have a solid control plant, with an equal amount of production, the electric bill doesn’t tell you that much.

          • I.e., the electricity in – heat out equation depends on accurate measurement of the amount of heat, which in turn depends on a number of factors, all of which must be accurately recorded. If heat output is in the form of steam, as it appears to be, this becomes very complicated, and may be open to interpretation.

          • Warthog

            One needs none of that to measure the electricity/energy used “before Ecat” and compare it to electricity/energy used “after Ecat”. One needs only the already installed meters put into place by the commercial energy providers.

            No calorimetry is needed at all to conclude “yes, it works” and

          • roseland67

            Warthog,
            You are making many assumptions here, i.e.:
            Was the work performed the same?
            We’re the environmental conditions the same?
            We’re the # of people in the building the same?
            There are many parameters that effect the consumption and demand in a building.
            It is highly unlikely that this “process” if it exists, had its own utility meter connected to it.

          • Warthog

            I am assuming nothing except that the process exists, and has the standard meter connections that all businesses have. The items you list will cancel/average out over a years run-time.

          • There is no evidence of a business at the test location that pre-dates the import of the e-cat containers, so there will not be any utility bills with which to make a comparison. Unless of course the JMC story is a ruse to protect the ‘real’ customer, and the actual tests took place elsewhere.

    • Thomas Kaminski

      It is highly likely that an independent flow measurement was made. You do not rely on a pump to measure flow, unless it is a very accurate volumetric pump. What makes you think that the pump was made to measure flow?

  • Felix Meyer

    The claim of Rossi to obtain a COP over 50 is false!
    It seem, that the LENR process is working, but the real COP have seen is 1.1 to 1.5
    The measuring of the E-CAT is WRONG, as the main part, the water pump in the E-CAT is bad (This pump is used to “measure” the energy of the hot water. The amount of pumped water was wrong, as the pump was running about 50% max. speed, and the amount of indicated of water was 4 to 6 higher that the real amount!)
    Here was one point, where we see, how the cheating was done … !!!

    • Andreas Moraitis

      Since the energy is proportional to the mass of heated water, 6 times less water would still give a COP > 8.

    • Steve H

      How do you square that with the fact that he is using PID tuned, mass flow controllers to feed the water into the reactors!

    • Frank Acland

      Is this your opinion, or have you a source for this allegation?

      • psi2u2

        My thoughts exactly.

    • viking999

      And how do you explain the huge amount of kilowatts that was saved at the plant.

      • psi2u2

        That is not yet on record. It is claimed. I tend to believe, or at least hope, that it is true, and if it is true it should vindicate Rossi. If not……well, like I said, I just think it is good to careful and stick to what is really in evidence, not based on mere verbal assurances.

    • It seems logical to assume that after one year IH suddenly find that that almost every single detail in the plant was defect or running at 1/10 of speed, or maybe there was an UFO involved or something explaining that there actually was no heat at all… for a year …

      • kdk

        Those aliens are Nefarious.

        • Even our interstellar brethren are now falling under Rossi’s spell!

    • Pat

      Once you can operate in SSM, you can (and do) achieve a COP as high as you would care to calculate. In SSM, COP is no longer important.

    • Tom59

      LENR is working, cold fusion is real -fantastic!!!

    • Warthog

      No pump or any other special apparatus is needed to validate the report. All that is necessary is the “kilowatt” meter measuring the electricity flowing to the customer’s process. And a valid COP of even 1.1 “should” have every physicist in the world racing to his lab to replicate….ain’t happenin’, bro.

      • Guest

        you assume there is an actual “customer’s process”…

        Again, it’s unlikely to be the electricity in measure that’s in doubt, but rather what energy came out of it…

        • Warthog

          There is zero doubt that there was a process of some sort into which energy was flowing….even IH says there is/was.

          I have zero clue of what you second sentence is supposed to mean…..

          • psi2u2

            I think he means that unless you really have a solid control plant, with an equal amount of production, the electric bill doesn’t tell you that much.

          • I.e., the electricity in – heat out equation depends on accurate measurement of the amount of heat, which in turn depends on a number of factors, all of which must be accurately recorded. If heat output is in the form of steam, as it appears to be, this becomes very complicated, and may be open to interpretation.

          • Warthog

            One needs none of that to measure the electricity/energy used “before Ecat” and compare it to electricity/energy used “after Ecat”. One needs only the already installed meters put into place by the commercial energy providers.

            No calorimetry is needed at all to conclude “yes, it works” and

          • roseland67

            Warthog,
            You are making many assumptions here, i.e.:
            Was the work performed the same?
            We’re the environmental conditions the same?
            We’re the # of people in the building the same?
            There are many parameters that effect the consumption and demand in a building.
            It is highly unlikely that this “process” if it exists, had its own utility meter connected to it.

          • Warthog

            I am assuming nothing except that the process exists, and has the standard meter connections that all businesses have. The items you list will cancel/average out over a years run-time.

          • There is no evidence of a working business at the supposed test location prior to the start of the tests, and some kit was apparently set up solely for the purpose of testing. Unfortunately this means that there won’t be any earlier utility bills with which to make comparisons.

            Unless of course the JMC story is a ruse to protect the ‘real’ customer, and the actual tests took place elsewhere – for which (again) there is no evidence whatsoever.

      • roseland67

        kWh meter, not kW meter and also same into Ecat

    • Occams razor

      Same mistake every single time. The consitent claim, including by the third oldest nuclear reasearch institution earth, our friends the chinese, is more energergy energy out than in, surpassing all known chemical sources of energy by many orders of magnitude. That statement means the margin of error is not .5 it is not a single order of magnitude ie x10, it is many, which will safely be x1000+. It is not possible for the number of replications all to be wrong, all to have measurement mistakes. It is not possible to make a mistake that large. And the claim is consitent. They also melt when they fail, not possible with known input power. We moved past Rossi says when the chinese replicated. Their claim is consitent with the first and second ecat reports. And they are the chinese government. The chinese have announced 15 Billion yuan in that technology park. 2.3bn usd. Do you think they did that without stealing the ip? The moment Darden approached China they put thier whole intelligence apparatus onto Rossi. Every computer that man has looked at has been hacked.

    • Thomas Kaminski

      It is highly likely that an independent flow measurement was made. You do not rely on a pump to measure flow, unless it is a very accurate volumetric pump. What makes you think that the pump was made to measure flow?

  • bkrharold

    The increasingly acrimonious dispute between Rossi and IH would not be happening unless both parties know they they are arguing over something very valuable. If Rossi were a fraud it is unlikely he would be fighting so tenaciously, knowing that his fraud would eventually be exposed, and he might face serious charges. Also IH are sending mixed messages, claiming the the eCat does not work, while filing a patent based on Rossis. They cant have it both ways. This unfortunate turn of events might delay the introduction of the ecat at a time when it is most desperately needed, by everyone in the world.

    • Rossi Fan

      Ever consider that they might not really be fighting? They could be shopping for a buyer. Investors love a bargain that they can buy for pennies on the dollar.

      • SG

        This has all the hallmarks of a genuine fight. I think IH has been extremely inconsistent in the positions that they have taken. They have a lot of explaining to do in my book. As others have pointed out, there might be larger interests at stake, which might be distorting this whole affair.

        • Rossi Fan

          To me it has all the hallmarks of the 1-10-100 rule. Rossi gets 10 from IH to start. IH gets 60 from W-something UK to pile it higher. Rossi and IH get 200 from the Chinese to pile it higher and deeper (PHD in balls). Then they explode in a lawsuit and hope for an even bigger payoff. Someone who is going to try to take LENR off of Rossi’s hands for what was his loss = price? $89? Or someone who is going to try to take LENR off of IH’s hands for at least $200 because that’s what the Chinese paid for it.

          There is a language these tech business guys use you have to catch onto. When someone says they lost $X that means they can be bought out for that price. To the trained eye this is Rossi telling the world that this is his valuation and that the e-cat is on the market.

          Lawsuit? What lawsuit? I don’t see a lawsuit. This is LENR ebay.

          Along comes the ERV report to prove it is real and Brilliouin the still company to entice whoever comes along to buy LENR on ebay.

        • HS61AF91

          The prudent Doctore caught them with their pants down around their ankles with that lawsuit.

        • Albert D. Kallal

          Always loved this scene from sneakers – it talks about money corrupting people:

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coDtzN6bXAM

      • bkrharold

        Why would Rossi or IH want to sell the eCat for pennies on the dollar unless it is worthless? My point was they are squabbling because they both believe it is valuable.

    • Albert D. Kallal

      The perplexing part is how come IH does not seem to care or worry about this “customer”?

      I mean, if the customer is happy with ecat performance, then this is going to take 5 minutes in front of the judge, and IH does not have a leg to stand on.

      The above suggests that the “customer” thus has a conflict of interest that taints their testimony.

      One has to ask why IH has zero concern about this customer and that of a simple testimony from this customer would sink IH’s position on this matter?

      Clearly IH does not seem worried about this issue since the existence of a credible customer blows IH’s position out of the water.

      Regards,
      Albert D. Kallal
      Edmonton, Alberta Canada

      • cashmemorz

        It is not the customer that IH is not concerned about but, the way that the E-Cat is to be “substantiated”. If you look at what “substantiate” means in this context it all comes together in a rather nice way. IH simply wants the function of the year long test to be confirmed from another direction and confirmation is all is that required. As Andrea Rossi sell more of the E-Cats, the more sources from which to draw such confirmation. The more satisfied customers there are(similar to the customer involved in the year long test) the more confirmation there will be. Period. End of conflict.

        • psi2u2

          I hope you are correct.

      • Alan DeAngelis

        “…does not seem to care…”
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGS029Peq7k

      • Brokeeper

        Once the video recordings taken within the 1MW container 24/7/350 is released as evidence, all may be exposed one way or the other. I’m curious if sound is also available to hear the accolades from IH and visitors.

        • Even that could be made to look like fraudulent showmanship duping unskilled observers by a clever lawyer.

        • Albert D. Kallal

          I don’t see how video will help or hurt the ecat case. I don’t think we are disagreeing that “tours” and people came to see the plant. However looking at a box of equipment tells one VERY little about how it is performing.

          I mean, what on the video would help or hurt the ecat and its performance?
          Regards,
          Albert D. Kallal
          Edmonton, Alberta Canada

          • Brokeeper

            Its pictures would be worth more than a thousand words especially backed by credible witnesses shown in those pictures. I am, as Rossi, also confident in the jury system made up of common folks like you and me, who can discern between truth and deception when correctly presented. Once AR releases the E-Cat to the European market followed with accolades matching those made in the container, common sense will prevail.

          • Albert D. Kallal

            The pictures will not help such whiteness to “become” more (or less) credible until such time the conflicts of interests are eliminated. So who leased the building, who paid for the power etc.

            I mean if people working and using the energy come forward and state they are saving power – then such testimony goes a LONG way to helping the ecat case, but ONLY if conflicts of interest are eliminated.

            So the pictures on their own does very little to “help” such people coming forward.

            If such conflicts of interest are eliminated (or don’t exist), then yes, pictures accompanied with credible witness will help.

            I don’t think anyone here is doubting that the 1MW plant exists and doubting that it’s been run for a year. The issue is that of who used the power, and who supplied and paid for the power. Pictures and videos of people speaking don’t help or change this conflict issue at all.
            And with such conflicts, then it would be un-wise to fork out 90 million dollars.

            Regards,
            Albert D. Kallal
            Edmonton, Alberta Canada

      • Dave Smith has addressed this question above (his option 3). Rossi’s choice of a dubious ‘customer’ and a one-man-band ‘ERV’ were not only sanctioned by IH, but they probably also blocked any alternatives, leaving Rossi no other choices. The combination could then be easily attacked in a court, discrediting Penon’s report findings completely, and probably even turned around to be made to look like a part of a planned scam by Rossi.

        This is why IH (Cherokee, or more likely a bigger fish sponsoring them) have engaged the services of APCO and Jones Day – they need this kind of firepower in order to rewrite history and attempt to turn Rossi’s attack (itself a defensive move) into a rout.

        • Albert D. Kallal

          @agaricus
          wrote:
          Rossi’s choice of a dubious ‘customer’ and a one-man-band ‘ERV’ were not only sanctioned by IH,

          First the word “sanctioned” is less than ideal. I think a better term is “went along”. Remember, at the start trust levels between the two parties are good, if not outright high.

          I do accept that IH likely dragged their feet on finding a customer. It not like they have an office full of people on the phone looking for a test company. So an extra
          month or so delay was never a big deal to IH. (but certainly more of an issue
          for Rossi).

          And who’s supposed to look for the test customer anyway? (likely Rossi’s job). So in this light, Rossi took the initiative, and so far that’s all we know.

          IH, but they probably also blocked more credible alternatives, leaving Rossi no other choices

          We don’t know this. I find it difficult to think IH was willing to go along with a company that Rossi found (or created), but not agree to a more credible company? That don’t make sense.

          I suspect IH knew rather little about this test company from the start. IH likely did not give the issue a whole lot of thought. As noted, at the start IH and Rossi had good levels of trust. So Rossi stated, “here”, I found a test company, they seem like a good match.

          So the trust levels between IH and Rossi likely diminished over time, especially given how Rossi works. I suspect additional information about conflicts of interest in this company only came to light later on. In other words, IH went along with the
          test company based on Rossi recommendation. As noted, it not like IH has a team of people on the phone looking for a test company.

          could then be easily attacked in a court,
          discrediting Penon’s report findings completely

          Penon likely is just doing his job. The issue is not can we trust Peon, but can we trust the plant? Who pays utility bills etc? Such issues give rise to conflicts of
          interest. And I don’t see actions by IH as a company attempting to thwart LENR
          at this point in time. Darden spoke at the LENR conference. I am open to the idea
          that many a companies and organisations would certainly be against LENR but
          actions of IH don’t (yet) support them as attempting to damage LENR.

          Down below, cashmemorz wrote:
          It is not the customer that IH is not concerned about but, the way that the E-Cat is to be “substantiated

          I VERY much agree with this. While we are “hearing” that IH does not think the ecat don’t work, that “don’t work” statement is from a second party talking to IH. I feel IH is not quite saying the ecat don’t work, but they ARE saying is they can’t substantiate” what they have. Given the contexts here, the wording from IH makes perfect sense.

          So these events hurts Rossi credibility. It does not mean the fat lady has sang, and it don’t mean the ecat is dead, but it does mean we don’t have good information as to the performance of the ecat as of yet.

          Regards,
          Albert D. Kallal
          Edmonton, Alberta Canada

  • bkrharold

    The increasingly acrimonious dispute between Rossi and IH would not be happening unless both parties know they they are arguing over something very valuable. If Rossi were a fraud it is unlikely he would be fighting so tenaciously, knowing that his fraud would eventually be exposed, and he might face serious charges. Also IH are sending mixed messages, claiming the the eCat does not work, while filing a patent based on Rossis. They cant have it both ways. This unfortunate turn of events might delay the introduction of the ecat at a time when it is most desperately needed, by everyone in the world.

    • Rossi Fan

      Ever consider that they might not really be fighting? They could be shopping for a buyer. Investors love a bargain that they can buy for pennies on the dollar.

      • SG

        This has all the hallmarks of a genuine fight. I think IH has been extremely inconsistent in the positions that they have taken. They have a lot of explaining to do in my book. As others have pointed out, there might be larger interests at stake, which might be distorting this whole affair.

        • Rossi Fan

          To me it has all the hallmarks of the 1-10-100 rule. Rossi gets 10 from IH to start. IH gets 60 from W-something UK to pile it higher. Rossi and IH get 200 from the Chinese to pile it higher and deeper (PHD in balls). Then they explode in a lawsuit and hope for an even bigger payoff. Someone who is going to try to take LENR off of Rossi’s hands for what was his loss = price? $89? Or someone who is going to try to take LENR off of IH’s hands for at least $200 because that’s what the Chinese paid for it.

          There is a language these tech business guys use you have to catch onto. When someone says they lost $X that means they can be bought out for that price. To the trained eye this is Rossi telling the world that this is his valuation and that the e-cat is on the market.

          Lawsuit? What lawsuit? I don’t see a lawsuit. This is LENR ebay.

          Along comes the ERV report to prove it is real and Brilliouin the still company to entice whoever comes along to buy LENR on ebay.

        • HS61AF91

          The prudent Doctore caught them with their pants down around their ankles with that lawsuit.

      • bkrharold

        Why would Rossi or IH want to sell the eCat for pennies on the dollar unless it is worthless? My point was they are squabbling because they both believe it is valuable.

    • Albert D. Kallal

      The perplexing part is how come IH does not seem to care or worry about this “customer”?

      I mean, if the customer is happy with ecat performance, then this is going to take 5 minutes in front of the judge, and IH does not have a leg to stand on.

      The above suggests that the “customer” thus has a conflict of interest that taints their testimony.

      One has to ask why IH has zero concern about this customer and that of a simple testimony from this customer would sink IH’s position on this matter?

      Clearly IH does not seem worried about this issue since the existence of a credible customer blows IH’s position out of the water.

      Regards,
      Albert D. Kallal
      Edmonton, Alberta Canada

      • NCkhawk

        You are a wise and perceptive soul.

        • psi2u2

          Albert’s comments have always impressed me with their sense of fairness and informed perspective, so even though I don’t like the way this seems to be going, I find insight from the post.

      • cashmemorz

        It is not the customer that IH is not concerned about but, the way that the E-Cat is to be “substantiated”. If you look at what “substantiate” means in this context it all comes together in a rather nice way. IH simply wants the function of the year long test to be confirmed from another direction and confirmation is all that is required. As Andrea Rossi sells more E-Cats, the more sources from which to draw such confirmation. The more satisfied customers there are(similar to the customer involved in the year long test) the more confirmation there will be. Period. End of conflict. Then IH will pay Rossi and everyone will live happily ever after.

        • psi2u2

          I hope you are correct.

      • Bob

        One also has to ask is there a customer? We know that the 1mw plant test was in a facility opened for the test. It was not an existing plant. The president of the test company was Rossi’s lawyer. Mats has heard that IH is saying that no production was made during the test.
        .
        We know nothing about any customer or any subsequent sales except from Rossi. Of course NDA’s and all secret as usual. So that is all we have, Rossi says.
        .
        I have no proof there is not a customer and I have seen no proof that there is one either! So to answer your question, IH may not be concerned because they do not believe there is a customer.
        .
        This is total conjecture on my part, but with some logic. Just as those who state the customer is happy with the plant has little but Rossi’s word on it. Both are very vague and unknown at this time.

        • Frank Acland

          Mats Lewan wrote this on his blog. It’s the most info I have seen reported about the customer:

          “Ok, so people I have talked to, who visited the plant, got a
          presentation from someone supposedly being the ‘Director of
          Engineering’ at JM Products Inc, that supposedly produced metal
          sponges for catalytic applications. The Director of Engineering told
          them that they were very satisfied since the yield per amount of
          electric energy consumed was significantly larger than in the
          company’s other production sites, maybe 10x or 20x (figure uncertain).
          Someone got a glimpse though a door and saw what seemed to be
          production activity.

          • Buck

            Frank,

            it is this quote that seems to point to the great divide between “unable to substantiate” and “fraud”.

            I can only hope that Mats’ sources are sound and courageous for the simple reason that Rossi essentially knows the whole list of visitors who have moved through the plant. And, he likely knows the “Director of Engineering” at JM Products, given how he changed their operation’s energy source.

          • Alain Samoun

            Mats said also that this director could also be an actor…

          • SG

            And the conspiracy keeps expanding, now inclusive of an impressive number of people, places, and events.

            I’m not saying Mats or you subscribe to such conspiracy theories, only that they are promulgated by some, even from within the LENR community.

          • I think it has become fairly apparent that what we have been watching has been a tiny part of the overall picture, and some of the other parties are now being progressively exposed.

            Whether or not this involves ‘conspiracy’ depends on how one interprets the word. When any group of people works together in secrecy according to a common agenda or purpose, then personally I would use the word conspiracy. Others may have differing interpretations.

            Adding the word ‘theory’ doesn’t change much, as any conspiracy not yet proven to be such must remain theory, or more properly speculation, until the secrecy has been ended.

          • Albert D. Kallal

            Mats was just repeating what he heard, and thus stated that details of the event are sketchy (don’t know who the engineering was for example – could have been anyone!). Mats was just being careful and giving a caveat to that statement.

            As for conspiracy? Penon, or this engineer is only going to repeat what Penon, Rossi or the customer is saying – that they are saving lots of energy. So these additional people don’t have to conspire, but only take the readings from the ecat plant.

            The problem thenbecomes are additional sources of energy available to the plant, and without additional details of who paying the bills etc., then such testimony is less than ideal.

            However, most important in above is how you do NOT need a whole bunch of people to conspire. If “one” part sneaks by, then everyone else down the line is simply being honest and sincere without knowledge of their information being wrong.

            I mean, one should read the story of Keely motors here:

            http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/museum/keely/keely.htm

            Many a engineer looked at this motor and believed it worked!

            Regards,
            Albert D. Kallal
            Edmonton, Alberta Canada

          • SG

            I get what you are saying. But consider that there are a couple of differences here that you might consider. First, it hasn’t just been a few engineers. Groups of well-respected scientists have observed and tested e-Cat devices, pre-test fuels, and post-test fuels over the course of five years, all with positive or intriguing results. So there are three possibilities for detractors: they’ve all been duped, they’ve all been sloppy and incompetant, or they are all part of a conspiracy. None of the explanations seem very plausible to me. Second, we know that LENR is a real phenomena, which lends credence to the e-Cat.

          • Albert D. Kallal

            Well, I think the issue is performance.

            The problem is such tests have been “less” than ideal. The third party test was a good start, but there are issues.

            So great evidence exists for LENR, but not for such high power output that Rossi claims to have.

            As several others have suggested, Rossi should send a dog type bone reactor to MMFP for a test – it really would quite much put an end to the speculative information we have.

            And to repeat Rossi – only a happy customer is the real test here.

            Regards,
            Albert D. Kallal
            Edmonton, Alberta Canada

          • There is also the small matter of the various shots of the containers, with the early and later versions of the 1MW machine sitting in the middle. Unless these are interpreted as cardboard sets or CGI, they were built by a serious engineering fabricator, at significant cost.

            At a guess, these prototypes would have cost well in excess of $100k each to have built – not the kind of money you would throw around on anything other than what they purport to be. Just the fact that one version was replaced by another seems to dismiss any conjecture other than that they were working prototypes (why would you replace one CGI or studio set with another when you didn’t need to do that?).

            Even if the chemical co. was not what it is now said to be (a temporary set-up designed to provide a simulated field test for the e-cats, with data logging) then the apparently working containers would need to be explained by skeptics or lawyers in some other way. This of course begs the question of where are the containers now? (the property concerned is apparently now back on the rental market).

          • wpj

            There is also the matter of the pictures of the people making these; IH employed people, to boot!

            Interesting point about the unit being up for rent as well. We do have a report that the plant was being recharged so it would be interesting to know if the client was now using it at their proper site.

          • “pictures of the people making these..”

            I haven’t seen those. Do you have a link please?

          • wpj
          • Albert D. Kallal

            The ecat plant is no doubt real.

            And it really a nice design – far advanced compared to the early 2011 model.

            And yes, it certainly was not cheap to build.

            As noted, the issue is performance and validation – we don’t have either as of yet.

            Regards,
            Albert D. Kallal
            Edmonton, Alberta Canada

          • Albert D. Kallal

            This would seem to be the only firsthand account of the plant (from a second party). I suspect this information is true. Of course we don’t know who the engineer is (and it likely don’t matter – such a person not going to really know the performance of the ecat plant anymore then Peon does).

            Given that the temperature of the ecat is not that high, I don’t see how such heat would be of use for manufacturing metal sponges for catalytic applications (but JM metals is certainly involved in such operations).

            So I am sure there was a plant. I sure that “tours” occurred. It just not clear who owned and leased the premises, and who paid utility bills etc.

            Regards,
            Albert D. Kallal
            Edmonton, Alberta Canada

          • Alan Smith

            Manufacturing metal sponge is a process requiring lots of hot water. The process starts in a foundry where (in short) Ni powder in mixed into molten aluminium – like gravel into cement mortar. This need not have been done in Miami.
            The nextt stage is to leach out the Aluminium with Alkali and hot water leaving the sintered Ni particles behind as a kind of Nickel foam. This part is where Ecat is useful..

          • Albert D. Kallal

            Thanks Alan (gotta love this fad called the internet!). This bit of info is usefull.

            This does thus bode well for the existence of the plant. As noted, I believe the plant exists – and using ecat for this second stage or process makes sense, and this would explain why and how a “manufacturing” plant was created out of thin air.

            In other words, only one step of the process was occurring, and this thus sounds rather reasonable. So some “huge” manufacturing plant was not created out of thin air.

            IH is holding out on payment either because they don’t want to pay, or they have doubts (or both!). Perhaps they don’t have the “secret”, but once manufacturing and deliver starts, then that issue could be resolved either by reverse engineering, or pushing Rossi for more details or by working closer with Rossi.

            All I can say is if the COP is 50+ then I can’t see how or why anyone would hold up any kind of payment for such a magical technology.

            Regards,
            Albert D. Kallal
            Edmonton, Alberta Canada

      • Alan DeAngelis

        “…does not seem to care…”
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGS029Peq7k

      • Brokeeper

        Once the video recordings taken within the 1MW container 24/7/350 is released as evidence, all may be exposed one way or the other. I’m curious if sound is also available to hear the accolades from IH and visitors.

        • Even that could be made to look like fraudulent showmanship duping unskilled observers by a clever lawyer.

        • Albert D. Kallal

          I don’t see how video will help or hurt the ecat case. I don’t think we are disagreeing that “tours” and people came to see the plant. However looking at a box of equipment tells one VERY little about how it is performing.

          I mean, what on the video would help or hurt the ecat and its performance?
          Regards,
          Albert D. Kallal
          Edmonton, Alberta Canada

          • Brokeeper

            Its pictures would be worth more than a thousand words especially backed by credible witnesses shown in those pictures. I am, as Rossi, also confident in the jury system made up of common folks like you and me, who can discern between truth and deception when correctly presented. Once AR releases the E-Cat to the European market followed with accolades matching those made in the container, common sense will prevail.

          • Albert D. Kallal

            The pictures will not help such whiteness to “become” more (or less) credible until such time the conflicts of interests are eliminated. So who leased the building, who paid for the power etc.

            I mean if people working and using the energy come forward and state they are saving power – then such testimony goes a LONG way to helping the ecat case, but ONLY if conflicts of interest are eliminated.

            So the pictures on their own does very little to “help” such people coming forward.

            If such conflicts of interest are eliminated (or don’t exist), then yes, pictures accompanied with credible witness will help.

            I don’t think anyone here is doubting that the 1MW plant exists and doubting that it’s been run for a year. The issue is that of who used the power, and who supplied and paid for the power. Pictures and videos of people speaking don’t help or change this conflict issue at all.
            And with such conflicts, then it would be un-wise to fork out 90 million dollars.

            Regards,
            Albert D. Kallal
            Edmonton, Alberta Canada

      • Dave Smith has addressed this question above (his option 3). Rossi’s choice of a dubious ‘customer’ and a one-man-band ‘ERV’ were not only sanctioned by IH, but they probably also blocked more credible alternatives, leaving Rossi no other choices. The combination could then be easily attacked in a court, discrediting Penon’s report findings completely, and could probably even be turned around and made to look like a part of a planned scam by Rossi.

        This is why IH (Cherokee, or more likely a bigger fish now behind them) have engaged the services of APCO and Jones Day – they need this kind of firepower in order to rewrite history and attempt to turn Rossi’s attack (itself a defensive move) into a rout.

        • Albert D. Kallal

          @agaricus
          wrote:
          Rossi’s choice of a dubious ‘customer’ and a one-man-band ‘ERV’ were not only sanctioned by IH,

          First the word “sanctioned” is less than ideal. I think a better term is “went along”. Remember, at the start trust levels between the two parties are good, if not outright high.

          I do accept that IH likely dragged their feet on finding a customer. It not like they have an office full of people on the phone looking for a test company. So an extra
          month or so delay was never a big deal to IH. (but certainly more of an issue
          for Rossi).

          And who’s supposed to look for the test customer anyway? (likely Rossi’s job). So in this light, Rossi took the initiative, and so far that’s all we know.

          IH, but they probably also blocked more credible alternatives, leaving Rossi no other choices

          We don’t know this. I find it difficult to think IH was willing to go along with a company that Rossi found (or created), but not agree to a more credible company? That don’t make sense.

          I suspect IH knew rather little about this test company from the start. IH likely did not give the issue a whole lot of thought. As noted, at the start IH and Rossi had good levels of trust. So Rossi stated, “here”, I found a test company, they seem like a good match.

          So the trust levels between IH and Rossi likely diminished over time, especially given how Rossi works. I suspect additional information about conflicts of interest in this company only came to light later on. In other words, IH went along with the
          test company based on Rossi recommendation. As noted, it not like IH has a team of people on the phone looking for a test company.

          could then be easily attacked in a court,
          discrediting Penon’s report findings completely

          Penon likely is just doing his job. The issue is not can we trust Peon, but can we trust the plant? Who pays utility bills etc? Such issues give rise to conflicts of
          interest. And I don’t see actions by IH as a company attempting to thwart LENR
          at this point in time. Darden spoke at the LENR conference. I am open to the idea
          that many a companies and organisations would certainly be against LENR but
          actions of IH don’t (yet) support them as attempting to damage LENR.

          Down below, cashmemorz wrote:
          It is not the customer that IH is not concerned about but, the way that the E-Cat is to be “substantiated

          I VERY much agree with this. While we are “hearing” that IH does not think the ecat don’t work, that “don’t work” statement is from a second party talking to IH. I feel IH is not quite saying the ecat don’t work, but they ARE saying is they can’t substantiate” what they have. Given the contexts here, the wording from IH makes perfect sense.

          So these events hurts Rossi credibility. It does not mean the fat lady has sang, and it don’t mean the ecat is dead, but it does mean we don’t have good information as to the performance of the ecat as of yet.

          Regards,
          Albert D. Kallal
          Edmonton, Alberta Canada

  • It’s not black and white you know. Opinions could be more or less logical or depend merely on emotions. The pathoskept cult is usually built on emotions of hatred and fear. When put into a corner they often seems to say they they do it because of hatred of … something, someone. Very often they say they hate fraudsters (on pure opinion, no evidence required) or hate pseudoscience … Does that make sense or what???

    • psi2u2

      Yes, I have encountered exactly this style of resistance to new knowledge in my own field as a Shakespeare scholar. The same FUD factor seems to inhabit the internet to stir up disinformation to slow down the inevitable collapse of an intellectually moribund establishment that is adhered to with religious faith, even though the question is purely a historical and literary one.

      • Alex Fenrick

        Thank you Psi…I really do appreciate that. While I have said that I believe extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof…I think that many of the skeptics forget that they must be just as diligent in backing skeptical claims as they expect from those on the opposite side of the fence. I honestly and sincerely hope that my poking and prodding into things that do not make sense to me personally in this case turn out to be complete conspiracy because LENR really would change the world no matter what any skeptic wants to believe. I will also take this opportunity to publicly say that the individuals in here on both sides of the fence are some of the smartest people…and the hardest to debate anywhere haha. I will admit sometimes I get emotionally charged by the conversations…but I never take it personally…in all honesty I am honored to get to spar with such brilliant minds in here. The lay person would be so lost by the discussion in here …in about 30 seconds. While I may appear to be a “pathoskeptic” to some in here lol….I honestly do still hold hope for LENR success for the world.

  • Rossi Fan

    In its current state it can be sold for much more than $10. Full disclosure and testing before you buy is not possible because Rossi can claim that IH has some key ingredient needed to show/demo and IH can claim Rossi has it. Who knows if IH/Rossi did not take China Inc. for a $200 ride and now they are both unaccountable and pointing the finger at each other?

  • Nonsense, a product in the market will certainly do as well. The ERV report is a contractual document that both parties agreed upon. WHY are YOU ignoring this fact?

    • psi2u2

      Yes, a rather more particular type of “science experiment,” in other words.

      Still, evidence for transmutation should be provided in any thorough report. Its absence would be a glaring omission at this stage. I realize that full analysis of the ash may be considered a trade secret, but the report must address this question in some reasoned fashion or it will be a real weakness, i.e. providing at least some before and after values confirming transmutation.

    • roseland67

      Sifferkoll,
      There are supposedly Ecats in the market now, military, Miami customer, the original Ecat customer in Milan, etc, however they have done nothing to convince anyone that LENR exists

      • Yes, and even though we don’t know if they exist, we can be pretty sure that these customers knows if it works. And actually, I would say that many people are convinced. Convincing everyone is impossible and not important, because denial is such a strong force.

        Every test, however flawless and/or scentific, will and can be disputed with ad-hominem/fraud arguments. This is why the pathoskepts like to promote this kind of solution … It’s the trap they are building and unfortunately a lot of people fall into it, because of their belief in honesty.

        And as I said, the ERV is important from a contractual standpoint, this FACT you still ignore.

      • SG

        Most military and private customers are self-interested. In fact, companies have fiduciary responsibilities to their shareholders to maximize profits. There would be zero incentive to share with others. Secrecy within military is par for the course, and again, no incentive for sharing. They have no reason to convince anyone else that LENR exists, and in fact, have every motivation to do exactly the opposite.

  • psi2u2

    I agree, but only pending confirmation.

  • Albert D. Kallal

    Transcripts are far better. You can waste 2 hours on a tape, and get 3 tid bits of information. Worse such a format is not searchable. Unless someone going to convert them into text, such formats are really bad from an information point of view (you cannot time shift and only “read” as fast as people talk).

    So you can spend 6 hours listing to tapes, or 3 minutes with a searchable document. At least we know the information is available.

    I would rather see an ecat at some customer then watch paint dry, watch grass grow, or start listening to court documents – these things drag on for years.

    You have to understand that the MAIN job of lawyers is to drag this out AS LONG AS POSSIBLE!

    Again the goal: Drag things out AS LONG AS POSSIBLE!

    As a result of the above legal goal, then this gives rise to ***WHEN*** possible the lawyers goal is to keep the conflict going! This gives rise to parties OFTEN taking unreasonable positions as a starting position (which then is moved by each set of lawyers to some middle ground).

    I can assure everyone here that real courts are NOTHING like a Hollywood movie – they are boring as hell, drag on for as long as possible, and the goal of the lawyers is to keep the conflict going on as long as possible – there no other real goal at all.

    This is a 10 to 15 year make work project for the lawyers. In fact, such cases often go beyond the lifespan of those involved. The case will stop when one of the parties runs out of money for their lawyers, and ONLY then.

    I suppose the case could flush out the “customer”, but given that IH public says the ecat don’t work, IH obviously don’t fear or have any worry about this customer, do they?

    This much suggests that the customer is not independent, and is not credible and is of little or no concern for IH.

    I would “temper” your hope and excitement about this trial, as they tend to be like watching grass grow over many years.

    Regards,
    Albert D. Kallal
    Edmonton, Alberta Canada

  • Tadej

    Would revealing the E-Cat’s secrets make Rossi it’s inventor or the “Star Wars” Robin Hood?

  • psi2u2

    Albert’s comments have always impressed me with their sense of fairness and informed perspective, so even though I don’t like the way this seems to be going, I find insight from the post.

  • Frank Acland

    Mats Lewan wrote this on his blog. It’s the most info I have seen reported about the customer:

    “Ok, so people I have talked to, who visited the plant, got a
    presentation from someone supposedly being the ‘Director of
    Engineering’ at JM Products Inc, that supposedly produced metal
    sponges for catalytic applications. The Director of Engineering told
    them that they were very satisfied since the yield per amount of
    electric energy consumed was significantly larger than in the
    company’s other production sites, maybe 10x or 20x (figure uncertain).
    Someone got a glimpse though a door and saw what seemed to be
    production activity.

    • Buck

      Frank,

      it is this quote that seems to point to the great divide between “unable to substantiate” and “fraud”.

      I can only hope that Mats’ sources are sound and courageous for the simple reason that Rossi essentially knows the whole list of visitors who have moved through the plant. And, he likely knows the “Director of Engineering” at JM Products, given how he changed their operation’s energy source.

    • Alain Samoun

      Mats said also that this director could also be an actor…

      • SG

        And the conspiracy keeps expanding, now inclusive of an impressive number of people, places, and events.

        • I think it has become fairly apparent that what we have been watching has been a tiny part of the overall picture, and some of the other parties are now being progressively exposed.

          Whether or not this involves ‘conspiracy’ depends on how one interprets the word. When any group of people works together in secrecy according to a common agenda or purpose, then personally I would used the word conspiracy. Others may have differing interpretations.

          Adding the word ‘theory’ doesn’t change much, as any conspiracy not yet proven to be such must remain theory, or more properly speculation, until the secrecy has been ended.

        • Albert D. Kallal

          Mats was just repeating what he heard, and thus stated that details of the event are sketchy (don’t know who the engineering was for example – could have been anyone!). Mats was just being careful and giving a caveat to that statement.

          As for conspiracy? Penon, or this engineer is only going to repeat what Penon, Rossi or the customer is saying – that they are saving lots of energy. So these additional people don’t have to conspire, but only take the readings from the ecat plant.

          The problem thenbecomes are additional sources of energy available to the plant, and without additional details of who paying the bills etc., then such testimony is less than ideal.

          However, most important in above is how you do NOT need a whole bunch of people to conspire. If “one” part sneaks by, then everyone else down the line is simply being honest and sincere without knowledge of their information being wrong.

          I mean, one should read the story of Keely motors here:

          http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/museum/keely/keely.htm

          Many a engineer looked at this motor and believed it worked!

          Regards,
          Albert D. Kallal
          Edmonton, Alberta Canada

          • SG

            I get what you are saying. But consider that there are a couple of differences here that you might consider. First, it hasn’t just been a few engineers. Groups of well-respected scientists have observed and tested e-Cat devices, pre-test fuels, and post-test fuels over the course of five years, all with positive or intriguing results. So there are three possibilities for detractors: they’ve all been duped, they’ve all been sloppy and incompetant, or they are all part of a conspiracy. None of the explanations seem very plausible to me. Second, we know that LENR is a real phenomena, which lends credence to the e-Cat.

          • Albert D. Kallal

            Well, I think the issue is performance.

            The problem is such tests have been “less” than ideal. The third party test was a good start, but there are issues.

            So great evidence exists for LENR, but not for such high power output that Rossi claims to have.

            As several others have suggested, Rossi should send a dog type bone reactor to MMFP for a test – it really would quite much put an end to the speculative information we have.

            And to repeat Rossi – only a happy customer is the real test here.

            Regards,
            Albert D. Kallal
            Edmonton, Alberta Canada

    • There is also the small matter of the various shots of the containers, with the early and later versions of the 1MW machine sitting in the middle. Unless these are interpreted as cardboard sets or CGI, they were built by a serious engineering fabricator, at significant cost.

      At a guess, these prototypes would have cost well in excess of $100k each to have built – not the kind of money you would throw around on anything other than what they purport to be. Just the fact that one version was replaced by another seems to dismiss any conjecture other than that they were working prototypes (why would you replace one CGI or set with another when you didn’t need to do that?).

      Even if the chemical co. was not what it is now said to be (a temporary set-up designed to provide a simulated field test for the e-cats, with data logging) then the apparently working containers would need to be explained by skeptics or lawyers in some other way. This of course begs the question of where are the containers now? (the property concerned is now apparently now back on the market for rental).

      • wpj

        There is also the matter of the pictures of the people making these; IH employed people, to boot!

        Interesting point about the unit being up for rent as well. We do have a report that the plant was being recharged so it would be interesting to know if the client was now using it at their proper site.

        • cashmemorz

          In this context Rossi’s flaw is the old Italian habit of being of the mentality where “blood is thicker than water” meaning those of close family or blood relations and close friends are automatically considered for important and not so important, or whatever position, over those who might have the best qualifications. Perhaps “arms length” concept is distrusted by those of his persuasion.

        • “pictures of the people making these..”

          I haven’t seen those. Do you have a link please?

      • Albert D. Kallal

        The ecat plant is no doubt real.

        And it really a nice design – far advanced compared to the early 2011 model.

        And yes, it certainly was not cheap to build.

        As noted, the issue is performance and validation – we don’t have either as of yet.

        Regards,
        Albert D. Kallal
        Edmonton, Alberta Canada

    • Albert D. Kallal

      This would seem to be the only firsthand account of the plant (from a second party). I suspect this information is true. Of course we don’t know who the engineer is (and it likely don’t matter – such a person not going to really know the performance of the ecat plant anymore then Peon does).

      Given that the temperature of the ecat is not that high, I don’t see how such heat would be of use for manufacturing metal sponges for catalytic applications (but JM metals is certainly involved in such operations).

      So I am sure there was a plant. I sure that “tours” occurred. It just not clear who owned and leased the premises, and who paid utility bills etc.

      Regards,
      Albert D. Kallal
      Edmonton, Alberta Canada

      • Alan Smith

        Manufacturing metal sponge is a process requiring lots of hot water. The process starts in a foundry where (in short) Ni powder in mixed into molten aluminium – like gravel into cement mortar. This need not have been done in Miami.
        The nextt stage is to leach out the Aluminium with Alkali and hot water leaving the sintered Ni particles behind as a kind of Nickel foam. This part is where Ecat is useful..

        • Albert D. Kallal

          Thanks Alan (gotta love this fad called the internet!). This bit of info is usefull.

          This does thus bode well for the existence of the plant. As noted, I believe the plant exists – and using ecat for this second stage or process makes sense, and this would explain why and how a “manufacturing” plant was created out of thin air.

          In other words, only one step of the process was occurring, and this thus sounds rather reasonable. So some “huge” manufacturing plant was not created out of thin air.

          IH is holding out on payment either because they don’t want to pay, or they have doubts (or both!). Perhaps they don’t have the “secret”, but once manufacturing and deliver starts, then that issue could be resolved either by reverse engineering, or pushing Rossi for more details or by working closer with Rossi.

          All I can say is if the COP is 50+ then I can’t see how or why anyone would hold up any kind of payment for such a magical technology.

          Regards,
          Albert D. Kallal
          Edmonton, Alberta Canada

  • builditnow

    An avenue of thought to keep in mind.
    Rossi could have kept back some “secret sauce” in order to maintain some power as an inventor. Otherwise he would only have a contract, a few million dollars and the word of some independent evaluator against a $2 billion fund and possibly much more than that.

    So, could Rossi be wanting this court case to shore up the agreement, thus avoiding having the potential of a later court case, by having it early, up front, before production starts, rather than being even further behind trying to sue would could become a multi trillion dollar fund against Rossi’s million or two or nothing. Some possible evidence for this is that Rossi had already prepared for this court case before the date that the $89 million was due. My understanding is that Rossi filed the case the day after the $89 million was due.

    IMHO this would be a smart move by Rossi, it gives an extra guarantee that the contract will be adhered to by having it run through a court case. Thus then having the weight of the US legal system behind the contract.

    Just guessing.

  • Dave Smith

    I have seen it theorized that IH has been trying to string Rossi along by dragging things out while IH pursues their own (or other’s) agenda. I think this theory may have merit for a few reasons: 1) I doubt that business men like Darden would not do enough due diligence to let a fraud get past the first two milestone payments. 2) I doubt that it would take approximately 6 months into the test before IH would suspect fraud when they had their own people involved, and it doesn’t make sense that they would let things play out to the end instead of calling foul immediately. 3) I doubt that IH couldn’t find an independent ERV and customer for the year long test. I suspect that IH allowed Rossi to use Penom and the customer he did knowing that after the year had gone by they could easily cast aspersions on the validity of the test and thus drag things on even longer. I suspect that if IH were serious; they would have found and insisted on an unimpeachable tester and customer. Therefore, it is possible IH planned this outcome all along. To me, it seems unreasonable to believe that Darden, a Yale Law graduate, would have been dumb enough to not get the tester and customer right if they were serious; given all the claims of trickery from previous tests. Seriously, would anyone who follows E-Cat World have made that mistake? That makes me wonder if it was intentional.

    • psi2u2

      Makes sense to me.

    • Alain Samoun

      Possible, but what the interest of IH to invest time and money with Rossi if they planned to do what you said? Do they have Saudis money? Don’t think so,instead they have invested in countries that would do anything to get cheap and unlimited energy like China and USA.

      • Argon

        I think one reason mentioned earlier here could be IH:s interest on delaying, so they could do their own moves and transition to new era would be smoother. Smoother for current big palyers as well economies in general.

        And other explanation is nastier… Yes I can very easily believe that company run by only businessmen and lawyers can make this kind basic errors on due diligence. I have witnessed a similar case. We even tried to loudly warn these arrogant businessmen, that their due diligence lacks badly to address alarming facts we could even google from public sources. Result losses was in same price range and lose of market because of wrong choices. Sad but true, and that is not the only case, we, technical people, tend to give too much value and respect arrogant people wearing suits and driving expensive company cars.
        Playing with big sums and numbers does not mean that our contribution is more valuable than persons playing with challenging scientific or technical problems – a fact that people tend to forget, some by purpose.

      • Dave Smith

        Admittedly I can only speculate as to why IH would be stalling. Maybe, their motives are altruistic, wanting to get the best device out to the world as quickly as possible to alleviate climate change. To them that may mean combining Rossi’s technology with others. They may even plan to ensure Rossi get’s his fair share when it is all said and done. Or, maybe there is something nefarious going on. I would like to think the best of Darden, but again, I can only speculate.

        I just can’t get past Darden and IH thinking it was a good idea to use Penom. I think between Darden and his partners someone would have realized they would have to use someone else if they wanted to avoid any hint of fraud. (Note: I am not suggesting there is fraud or that there is anything wrong with Penom that I know about. It’s just eliminating any doubt given the reaction to past test results.) It feels like the end result of using Penom is that we have wasted a year and people will still call the results into question, including IH, hence the speculation that this may have been the plan all along.

        Sadly, regardless of any speculation, we are back to waiting again. 🙁

  • builditnow

    An avenue of thought to keep in mind.
    Rossi could have kept back some “secret sauce” in order to maintain some power as an inventor. Otherwise he would only have a contract, a few million dollars and the word of some independent evaluator against a $2 billion fund and possibly much more than that.

    So, could Rossi be wanting this court case to shore up the agreement, thus avoiding having the potential of a later court case, by having it early, up front, before production starts, rather than being even further behind trying to sue would could become a multi trillion dollar fund against Rossi’s million or two or nothing. Some possible evidence for this is that Rossi had already prepared for this court case before the date that the $89 million was due. My understanding is that Rossi filed the case the day after the $89 million was due.

    IMHO this would be a smart move by Rossi, it gives an extra guarantee that the contract will be adhered to by having it run through a court case. Thus then having the weight of the US legal system behind the contract.

    Just guessing.

    • Thor

      Here’s my new theory.

      Rossi did hold back a “secret sauce”, but it’s not in the control software or fuel mix. He let IH have both of those and, using them IH can get between 3 and 6 COP.

      The so called secret sauce is some type of RF transmitter that acceleates the reaction. And he actually kept it in his pocket, on his physical person, for the entire year of the test. No wonder the tests only get the obsurdly high COP when he’s there. He has the last piece of the puzzle in his shirt pocket, hidden in plain sight!

      • Alain Samoun

        “Is that a roll of nickels in your pocket Mr. Rossi or are you just glad to see me?”
        Originally said by Mae West.
        Could not resist 😉

        • Thor

          Completely understand! I had a heck of a time writing “shirt pocket” instead of pants…

      • Pekka Janhunen

        Rossi wasn’t there 24/7, but approximately 16/7. If one has a COP of 6 one third of the time, the average COP becomes 18, not 50, even if the COP would be infinite always when Rossi is present.
        If your theory is right, Rossi must have handed out the gadget to another person. However, I don’t think this is right, for example because radio waves would have a hard time penetrating through the conducting structures of the reactors. One reactor perhaps yes, but radiating all four E-tigers simultaneously from a single pocket sounds geometrically a challenging thing to do.

        • Pekka Janhunen

          I amend myself. RF penetration into the reactors wouldn’t be a problem if the pocket radio signal is picked up by the control box of the plant before its amplifier. It would be easy to make a control box which works suboptimally without certain RF input.
          However, in order to reach 50+ COP, also Rossi’s aide should have possessed the device. Absence/presence of periodic regularities in COP as a function of time of day would make this scenario more/less unlikely.

      • HS61AF91

        Maybe a speaker broadcasting sound above 25kHz?

    • Michael W Wolf

      I don’t know if Rossi could leave out the secret sauce. As far as I know about patent law. If your invention becomes known to the public, it is no longer patentable. How can he have a reactor with an unpatentable sauce inside? I guess reverse engineering proof is his only protection. But I don’t see anything that is reverse engineer proof.

      • Ted-Z

        The physical pre-treatment history is extremely difficult to reverse engineer. Reverse engineering of the composition is not a problem with the modern instrumental analysis.
        ———————–
        MFMP and other replications should concentrate on pre-treatment. Try cryogenic pre-treatment and the standard methods for pre-treatment of steel.

  • Dr. Mike

    roseland67,
    I also would like to see replication and analysis of “ash’ products as confirming data on LENR. However, if I had to chose between seeing a replication of 10%-30% excess heat or data from a system running for 350 days that operated at a COP of greater than 50, I think I would rather see the latter. (Note I am assuming that the ERV report will support the claim in the court documents.) I think I will be able to read the report and determine if the potential errors in data taking are small compared to the claimed COP of 50. Also, I am sure Rossi will have the ash in the end of use devices analyzed, but I don’t believe the data will be released anytime soon.

  • interstellar hobo

    all I can offer is theories, but consider just how interesting the work of MFMP is lately. Rossi may have gotten better numbers for MFMP have come up with a method that could easily be reverse engineered by anyone. So what does China needs if IH? They’re not exactly the nation most respectful of intellectual property. Frankly these devices may be so simple to build, once its understood, that LENR tubes could be the “khyber pass guns” of energy.

  • Publius

    I don’t inextricably link LENR and Rossi together and I certainly don’t think the prospect of our LENR future depends solely on what Rossi and IH have going on. This case is clearly in federal court because of the dollar amount, not because of any governmental involvement and this case will not be the Miracle on 34th Street that determines if LENR is real or not. LENR viability will be played out in the years to come by the handful of parties putting the puzzle pieces together behind closed doors.

    • psi2u2

      And on this website.

      • SG

        And among the open source MFMP folks.

        • psi2u2

          Well that’s mainly who I was meaning, but yes I get your point that replication efforts are now happening in many places and only some of them are reporting live results here.

  • Publius

    I don’t inextricably link LENR and Rossi together and I certainly don’t think the prospect of our LENR future depends solely on what Rossi and IH have going on. This case is clearly in federal court because of the dollar amount, not because of any governmental involvement and this case will not be the Miracle on 34th Street that determines if LENR is real or not. LENR viability will be played out in the years to come by the handful of parties putting the puzzle pieces together behind closed doors.

    • psi2u2

      And on this website.

      • SG

        And among the open source MFMP folks.

        • psi2u2

          Well that’s mainly who I was meaning, but yes I get your point that replication efforts are now happening in many places and only some of them are reporting live results here.

  • Well, faith against hate … I guess you can make it into an ethical question if you like. Sort of like Star Wars …

    But, as you know, in the absence of enough facts, the pathoskept hate cult have consistently taken the “ad-hominem”/”guilty until proven otherwise” standpoint, while the “faith” side usually analyse the situation using logic and reason from the facts/statements available, even though some of them might not have a probability of 1 and has to be estimated. That’s what I call analysis. But you might have a different view. I still have the feeling you prefer to paint stuff either black or white …

  • Alain Samoun

    Possible, but what the interest of IH to invest time and money with Rossi if they planned to do what you said? Do they have Saudis money? Don’t think so,instead they have invested in countries that would do anything to get cheap and unlimited energy like China and USA.

    • Argon

      I think one reason mentioned earlier here could be IH:s interest on delaying, so they could do their own moves and transition to new era would be smoother. Smoother for current big palyers as well economies in general.

      And other explanation is nastier… Yes I can very easily believe that company run by only businessmen and lawyers can make this kind basic errors on due diligence. I have witnessed a similar case. We even tried to loudly warn these arrogant businessmen, that their due diligence lacks badly to address alarming facts we could even google from public sources. Result losses was in same price range and lose of market because of wrong choices. Sad but true, and that is not the only case, we, technical people, tend to give too much value and respect arrogant people wearing suits and driving expensive company cars.
      Playing with big sums and numbers does not mean that our contribution is more valuable than persons playing with challenging scientific or technical problems – a fact that people tend to forget, some by purpose.

  • Alain Samoun

    “Is that a roll of nickels in your pocket Mr. Rossi or are you just glad to see me?”
    Originally said by Mae West.
    Could not resist 😉

  • Pekka Janhunen

    Rossi wasn’t there 24/7, but approximately 16/7. If one has a COP of 6 one third of the time, the average COP becomes 18, not 50, even if the COP would be infinite always when Rossi is present.
    If your theory is right, Rossi must have handed out the gadget to another person. However, I don’t think this is right, for example because radio waves would have a hard time penetrating through the conducting structures of the reactors. One reactor perhaps yes, but radiating all four E-tigers simultaneously from a single pocket sounds geometrically a challenging thing to do.

    • Pekka Janhunen

      I amend myself. RF penetration into the reactors wouldn’t be a problem if the pocket radio signal is picked up by the control box of the plant before its amplifier. It would be easy to make a control box which works suboptimally without certain RF input.
      However, in order to reach 50+ COP, also Rossi’s aide should have possessed the device. Absence/presence of periodic regularities in COP as a function of time of day would make this scenario more/less unlikely.

    • georgehants

      Micheal, it may be helpful if you added an assessment of the current situation leading from your point.

    • cashmemorz

      I remember when my cities public transit system was changed to diesel power just at the time when electricity was cheapest. There was a write up by proponents of electric powered vehicles of how this occurred. The explanation of this was that the manufacturers of diesel powered busses were influenced by the oil companies to bid lower than the electrical powered vehicle manufacturers could

      • Cuthbert Allgood

        Well, first of all, have one technology outbid another technology has nothing to do with secret conspiracies to suppress new world-changing technology, which is the subject of the discussion.

        Second, having one company outbid another company and going lower than they can go… er… that’s competition, working as intended. Am I supposed to cry that the city got a better deal because you like one technology over the other? That’s the whole point of competition, applying lower price pressure. If your argument is that the city lost money long-term for whatever reason, then that’s on the city’s financial analysts. There’s no conspiracy here.

        • cashmemorz

          Did you get the part that the oil companies were in on the influence to get the bus manufacturers to bid lower?

          • Ted-Z

            Discussing about the reality (true or false) of the conspiracy theories IS DERAILING this discussion list and filling it with garbage.
            THE MODERATOR should limit this type of OFF TOPIC attempts to resurrect the dead ideas, which are now AT THE STAGE OF ZOMBIES. It looks like the long-debunked statements are being brought back, from an old and rarely updated script.

  • simon gray

    I do wish the independent had been chosen by IH in the first place… As they were footing the bill, why was it AR that chose the independent?

    • roseland67

      The “Independant” could have been NASA, Fermi, Berkley, ORNL, Argonne etc.
      Instead it was some “friend of the program”.
      Whatever the report suggests will be subjected to the same questions and concerns that Lugano was, essentially rendering it next to worthless to all but the Rossi Zealots.
      Sigh

      • cashmemorz

        In this context Rossi’s flaw is the old Italian habit of being of the mentality where “blood is thicker than water” meaning those of close family or blood relations and close friends are automatically considered for important and not so important, or whatever position, over those who might have the best qualifications. Perhaps “arms length” concept is distrusted by those of his persuasion.

  • Watchman

    I’ll just wait, when the “donate” link will appear… and then I will leave this page for ever…

  • georgehants

    The whole court case etc. is irrelevant and is only capitalism at it’s worst chasing obscene profit and power.
    A very old saying that, money is the root of all evil, is just as True today as when it was first spoken.
    Mr. Rossi has stated that he can now make his devices almost impossible to back engineer, then start distributing them to competent people such as MFMP and certainly not any corrupt and incompetent establishment organizations, for verification.
    Cold Fusion is the only important thing to this World, not who gains piles of Gold ans Silver for their own pathetic greed.
    Do we here care about Cold Fusion and the great benefits it could bring to those who most need it or just waste our time justifying this farce.
    Mr. Rossi PROVE your Cold Fusion to us and all concerned people and stop playing silly little capitalist games, people are suffering and dying by the day.

    • DrD

      NO George you have it wrong, the saying is “the love of money is the root of all evil”. notice the important difference?

      • georgehants

        DrD , thank you and fully except the difference, in any system there will always be tokens, credits in which to work at a very basic level.
        Of course my meaning does not change one iota and perhaps you would now like to reply with your assessment of the evils of a unfair, distorted and dishonest system that leads to millions suffering while some wallow in luxury.

    • Ted-Z

      It started with Julius Cesar and his inventor of transparent metal, through the history, inventors of amazing inventions have kept the inventions as secrets and then the inventors were “eliminated”, sometimes by natural forces (Bessler’s case in the 18th century and many others). Andrea apparently has some “insurance letters” to be published, if he will vanish in thin air. This might be the reason that he has not been eliminated so far. He is untouchable, as Snowden and some others from the Wikileaks. Some governments may have even better solutions than the Ecat, but they will keep them as top secret, because of a perception that just mentioning these inventions will cause re-creation by the other countries and a shift in the power balance. The disclosing of the existence of the atomic bomb was the greatest mistake that the US government ever made. They could have covered up the dropping of the bomb as a new type of mass-bombing with conventional materials but with synchronized fuses.

  • georgehants

    The whole court case etc. is irrelevant and is only capitalism at it’s worst chasing obscene profit and power.
    A very old saying that, money is the root of all evil, is just as True today as when it was first spoken.
    Mr. Rossi has stated that he can now make his devices almost impossible to back engineer, then start distributing them to competent people such as MFMP and certainly not any corrupt and incompetent establishment organizations, for verification.
    Cold Fusion is the only important thing to this World, not who gains piles of Gold ans Silver for their own pathetic greed.
    Do we here care about Cold Fusion and the great benefits it could bring to those who most need it or just waste our time justifying this farce.
    Mr. Rossi PROVE your Cold Fusion to us and all concerned people and stop playing silly little capitalist games, people are suffering and dying by the day.

    • DrD

      NO George you have it wrong, the saying is “the love of money is the root of all evil”. notice the important difference?

      • Michael W Wolf

        Yep, money is only as important or as worthless as we make it. It is as good or as evil as we make it.

      • georgehants

        DrD , thank you and I fully accept the difference, in any system there will always be tokens, credits, etc. in which to work at a very basic level.
        Of course my meaning does not change one iota and perhaps you would now like to reply with your assessment of the evils of an unfair, distorted and dishonest system that leads to millions suffering while some wallow in luxury.

    • dms

      Money is the root of all that is good because without money and trade there is only force. So you can go and buy the technology from Rossi if you want it , or you can put him in handcuffs and water board him until he gives you his secrets for the good of mankind.
      Cold fusion will be developed and spread around the world if it is real and scalable — which is far from clear. Otherwise, it will remain a discussion for labs and blogs. Because if it is real, someone else will figure it out. It is only a matter of time.

      • georgehants

        dms, so you seriously believe those with out money will be cared about any more than today.

      • Albert D. Kallal

        Always loved this scene from sneakers – it talks about money corrupting people:

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coDtzN6bXAM

  • DrD

    Just suppose a few of the most important and most powerful individuals in the world, not just in the US, have determined that AR can not be allowed to mass produce and sell his LENR, nor anyone else. Suppose these are really the ones behind his obstructors. Can he survive?

    • georgehants

      DrD you seem to be suggesting that our capitalist system is rotten to the core.
      Yes I would agree with you, money and power can be the root of much evil..

  • DrD

    Just suppose a few of the most important and most powerful individuals in the world, not just in the US, have determined that AR can not be allowed to mass produce and sell his LENR, nor anyone else. Suppose these are really the ones behind his obstructors. Can he survive?

    • roseland67

      DrD,

      Kinda makes you wonder doesn’t it?

      With all of the tech spying capabilities
      Available to all of the governments and businesses globally, if Ecat is what we have been lead to believe, and “people in the know”
      Are privy to this knowledge, why is Rossi not in a dungeon somewhere being “sweated” for the keys to the kingdom?

      • Ted-Z

        It started with Julius Cesar and his inventor of transparent metal, through the history, inventors of amazing inventions have kept the inventions as secrets and then the inventors were “eliminated”, sometimes by natural forces (Bessler’s case in the 18th century and many others). Andrea apparently has some “insurance letters” to be published, if he will vanish in thin air. This might be the reason that he has not been eliminated so far. He is untouchable, as Snowden and some others from the Wikileaks. Some governments may have even better solutions than the Ecat, but they will keep them as top secret, because of a perception that just mentioning these inventions will cause re-creation by the other countries and a shift in the power balance. The disclosing of the existence of the atomic bomb was the greatest mistake that the US government ever made. They could have covered up the dropping of the bomb as a new type of mass-bombing with conventional materials but with synchronized fuses.

      • Alan Smith

        He had a note from his Ma excusing him.

    • georgehants

      DrD you seem to be suggesting that our capitalist system is rotten to the core.
      Yes I would agree with you, money and power can unquestionably be the root of much evil..

    • Cuthbert Allgood

      Nobody is trying to shut down LENR. Literally nobody. I know there’s a lot of paranoia around here, but if it was working, all the major energy players would be the first ones trying to sell it. It’s worth pointing out that there is no example in history of a world-changing technology being suppressed, because it’d be stupid to suppress a world-changing technology that’s worth world-changing money.

      The only thing holding LENR back is reproducibility. It either works, or it doesn’t, and we have no consistent, reliable working examples that any scientist can use to prove it out. Simple as that.

      • psi2u2

        “It’s worth pointing out that there is no example in history of a world-changing technology being suppressed.”

        You sound very certain of this claim. I doubt it very much.

        • Cuthbert Allgood

          “I doubt it very much.”

          That’s fine, but it’s up to you to demonstrate when it happened. Any suppressed technology will eventually be rediscovered, over and over. We have no examples of technologies that were suppressed. I mean, we have examples where competing technologies tried to win over each other, but that’s a different thing from world changing new technology. I mean, were transistors suppressed because they would kill the vacuum tube industry? No — because they were so far superior that Bell Labs would have been morons to suppress it, particularly when they know it’s only a matter of time before someone else invents it. Inventions generally happen when the environment has ripened to support it. It wasn’t a coincidence that calculus was invented by two separate people at almost the same time.

          And now we have the invention of all inventions, and someone is going to suppress for — oil money!? When everyone knows oil is on the way out? Or solar producers? Or who? What idiot would be stupid enough to have magic energy and decide, “Nah, this isn’t worth more than what I’m already selling.” It’s absurd.

          • Your assertion depends on an obvious logical fallacy. If a technology has been suppressed, then we will either have no knowledge of it or a false account will be in place. That’s the point of suppression, so issuing a challenge to ‘prove it happened’ is a fairly safe bet (as of course you will know), but is not evidence that suppression doesn’t take place.

            In this case suppression probably isn’t an option. Too many people are involved – mostly in secret, so there is no known target for suppression. However that doesn’t mean that no attempt will be made to seriously delay public knowledge and acceptance of LENR for the obvious reason that time is needed by existing stakeholders to divest their interests in obsolescent assets. This topic has been covered many times on this blog by contributors who are far more expert about such matters than myself.

          • Cuthbert Allgood

            > Your assertion depends on an obvious logical fallacy. If a technology has been suppressed, then we will either have no knowledge of it or a false account will be in place.

            Not at all. That’s only true if every suppression has been perfectly successful throughout history, which isn’t reasonable. That we have no examples suggests strongly that it’s never happened.

          • History and people are neither all that logical nor all that consistent. For example, Albert Einstein stated in 1932, “There is not the slightest indication that nuclear energy will ever be obtainable. It would mean that the atom would have to be shattered at will.” (quoted in “Hiroshima Plus 20”, NYT) Obviously Einstein changed his mind later on.

            Example of supression: Franklin D. Roosevelt shot himself with a pistol but it was never reported because “we don’t want to think that our presidents can kill themselves.” FDR suffered miserably from polio and yet most citizens were not aware of his being as crippled as he was.

            Both Rossi and Darden are flawed human beings. Both have lied at some points in their lives and both have also changed their minds about what is true and what is not true. It is called ‘humanity’…get used to it.

          • Cuthbert Allgood

            > Example of supression: Franklin D. Roosevelt shot himself with a pistol but it was never reported because “we don’t want to think that our presidents can kill themselves.”

            You don’t seriously believe the FDR suicide story? That’s all bunk. There’s no evidence for it at all, and the silliest thing about it is that supposedly people heard announcements over loudspeakers in department stores, yet no one can find the source of any of this. Even if some people did think that at first, he died of a cerebral hemorrhage after complaining of huge head pain. It’s not hard to see how rumors can twist that around.

            But, in any case, you’re comparing keeping a suicide a secret to the subject at hand, which is corporate entities purposely suppressing a world-changing technology in order to manipulate the market and keep the profits rolling in from their existing inferior technology?

            Yes, I can see how those are exactly the same. /s

            If your point is that people often keep secrets about suicide, well yes, you’re right. But that has little to do with the thread.

          • psi2u2

            To pick only the most obvious and immediate example, it has happened by many accounts in the case of Cold Fusion. Pons and Fleischmann discovered the phenomenon in 1989 and were howled down by hot fusion physicists, thereby delaying by several decades the practical application of the science.

            Another example is given by Barry Commoner, in his analysis of how the auto and oil industries put electric mass transit out of operation in many major US cities because they saw it as competition and threat to their bottom lines.

            “Any suppressed technology will eventually be rediscovered, over and over. ”

            Perhaps so, but that does not say anything about how long suppression can be effective. It is only common sense that when large economic interests are threatened, they will fight to delay or even bury the adoption of a new technology.

          • Cuthbert Allgood

            The big problem with P&F is that they got an ENORMOUS amount of support — at the beginning. But when nobody could reproduce the results, people stopped paying attention. Which was perfectly reasonable. Extraordinary results demand extraordinary evidence, and say what you want about Cold Fusion, we do NOT have clearcut evidence. There was no and has been no conspiracy by hot fusion scientists to suppress evidence, because there is no clear evidence. All it takes is one reproducible experiment and the entire scientific community changes overnight. Clearly — since that’s exactly what happened when P&F announced their results. HUGE excitement in science.

            And that whole electric mass transit conspiracy has always been nonsense. Electric died because the technology wasn’t ready. Hell, the technology is STILL not ready in as many use cases as gasoline vehicles have. The EV1 was an awful car. Tesla came along when the technology finally caught up. The easiest way to disprove it is: why, exactly, would auto makers care what the power train was? They don’t — they sell cars. They’ll sell gerbil-powered cars if that’s what would sell and make a profit. The whole idea that the car industry would work to suppress electric cars is laughable. And now that electric cars are at least semi-practical and people will buy them, what do we see? Whoa, car makers are making electric cars.

          • cashmemorz

            I remember when my cities public transit system was changed to diesel power just at the time when electricity was cheapest. There was a write up by proponents of electric powered vehicles of how this occurred. The explanation of this was that the manufacturers of diesel powered busses were influenced by the oil companies to bid lower than the electrical powered vehicle manufacturers could

          • Cuthbert Allgood

            Well, first of all, have one technology outbid another technology has nothing to do with secret conspiracies to suppress new world-changing technology, which is the subject of the discussion.

            Second, having one company outbid another company and going lower than they can go… er… that’s competition, working as intended. Am I supposed to cry that the city got a better deal because you like one technology over the other? That’s the whole point of competition, applying lower price pressure. If your argument is that the city lost money long-term for whatever reason, then that’s on the city’s financial analysts. There’s no conspiracy here.

          • cashmemorz

            Did you get the part that the oil companies were in on the influence to get the bus manufacturers to bid lower?

          • Cuthbert Allgood

            What about it? Whether it’s true or not, I literally don’t get why you think this would be worthy of note. If they bribed politicians, that’s one thing and is unethical. Lobby for criminal charges. If a fuel company and a transportation manufacturer formed a partnership (gasp!) to subsidize things, lower prices and get a better deal to the city, that’s competition working as designed. Thumbs up for everyone involved. If the electric vehicle companies have a better, lower-cost solution, let them propose it. Or was the city supposed to reject the better deal because an eeeeevil oil company was involved in *getting them a better deal*? How horrible.

            Would you also be outraged if Samsung “influenced” some manufacturer to use OLED displays instead of LCD because Samsung makes OLED and so cut a deal somehow for OLED to be used at a lower cost?

            Maybe I just don’t get it because I don’t see these as moral crusades. Oil will lose when oil becomes a worse solution than other solutions, same as it’s always been.

          • Ted-Z

            Discussing about the reality (true or false) of the conspiracy theories IS DERAILING this discussion list and filling it with garbage.
            THE MODERATOR should limit this type of OFF TOPIC attempts to resurrect the dead ideas, which are now AT THE STAGE OF ZOMBIES. It looks like the long-debunked statements are being brought back, from an old and rarely updated script.

          • psi2u2

            ” when nobody could reproduce the results.”

            There were successful replications from very early on. The fact of even one successful reproduction should have given the orthodoxists pause to reconsider their assumptions. Instead greed, ego, and clinging to old models prevailed.

            “And that whole electric mass transit conspiracy has always been nonsense. ”

            No, it was proven by Barry Commoner in the pages of the New Yorker. Your answer makes it clear that you do not even know what I am talking about, which is the destruction of the already existing, fully functional electric rail systems in most cities of north america. The technology was perfectly ready. It was in operation. Stop proclaiming about topics you don’t know anything about. I am through with this conversation. Good luck.

          • Josh G

            You obviously haven’t read Eugene Mallove’s investigative work on the conspiracy to cover up child’s fusion at MIT. In fact I would be surprised if you’ve read anything but your scripted talking points. But I’ll give you props. It takes real chutzpah to come on a website of cold fusion enthusiasts and declare without the slightest hint of irony or embarassment that there is no evidence of a world changing technology being suppressed. That’s rich. Thanks for giving me a laugh. I needed it.

          • Cuthbert Allgood

            I should just let this go; there’s little point in trying to reason with people who are determine to believe in conspiracies. But I can’t take it.

            The easiest way to refute your entire premise is to simply ask, “Why would one set of physicists care what another group of hot fusion physicists think?” The whole idea that there is some all-powerful controlling cabal that determines what anyone can experiment with is silly. Do you understand that the physicist that is able to *reliably* reproduce LENR has instant fame and a Nobel Prize in their pocket? No physicist cares what any other physicist think if they think there’s a way to push back the frontier of knowledge in *any* part of physics, much less a world-overturning part of physics.

            Physicists don’t care about LENR because there is no clear-cut way to reproduce. Lots of people huff and puff and pout their lips when I say this, but if it’s not true, link me to the experiment details. The ones that are “Follow this procedure, measure it in this way, and you will get energy that exceeds what can be explained through chemical means.” Hell, it doesn’t even have to work every time. If it was statistical and said, “On the average, you get unexplainable results 1 out of 100 times,” that would be enough. But the PDF doesn’t exist.

            I think there *might* be something to LENR, which is why it interests me. But I also retain enough rationality that it’s entirely possible it’ll turn out to be in the same crackpot category as “free magnet energy” (or whatever). I hope not, but no one can say for sure, and despite your arrogance for apparently believing you’re some sort of insider, you haven’t the faintest clue either.

            All we can do is see if something eventually pops out that’s well documented and reproducible. If you think the latter already exists, by all means, strike me down with your PDF of truth and link me to it. And no, MFMP is not it, at least not yet. But then, people like you have been telling me this magic document existed a decade ago, so please link me to the classic experiment that shows all.

          • Josh G

            Really, you should take your own advice and just let this go — you just keep putting your foot deeper and deeper down your throat. You’ve already lost this argument and you don’t even realize it.

            You’ve got things upside-down and inside-out. I’m not the one who is “determined to believe” in anything. My belief that there was a conspiracy to bury cold fusion is based on evidence. My understanding of how the incentives of academia work to marginalize experimental results that challenge the existing paradigm (as well as the existing flow of grant money) is based on well understood dynamics of the scientific field based on historical studies of science (like Kuhn) and boatloads of studies of peer review, in addition to my own personal experience. You don’t even need to posit a conspiracy to understand that. All you need is a brain and dash of common sense, both of which you sorely lack.

            You are the one who is determined to deny any conspiracy, despite all the evidence for it. You are the one who is determined to believe in some fairy-tale notion of science and academia where everyone is a champion of the truth, no matter how painful. I wish I could live in your fantasy world, but I prefer to deal with things as they are.

            As for a magic .pdf that will provide evidence for cold fusion — just have a look-see over at lenr-canr.org. You’ll find lots of .pdfs there. I’m not going to bother linking to any of them, because I know how this works: you’ve established an arbitrary threshold about the evidence you need to prove that LENR is real, but as soon as I send you a pdf that will satisfy you, you will change the goal posts. Repeatedly. I’m too weary of shills to play that game with you, as I don’t care playing Charlie Brown to your Lucy. Anybody who has seriously studied the LENR phenomenon knows that your criteria have been met. You’ll have to find someone else to take your bait. If you’re genuinely curious, go ask Jed Rothwell. But since you’re not genuinely interested in LENR (which I infer from your ignorance of the field), I can’t imagine you’ll actually do that.

  • Gerard McEk

    It would be extremely good when AR would decide to have a QuarkX or Ecat tested by MFMP. That would immediately turn all doubts into certainties. I would very much advise AR to do this. There is no need to look for changes in the fuel. Just a COP measurement would be fine. I would be prepared to fund this for the good of humanity.

    • SG

      Yes, this is precisely what needs to happen. While it would never convince the pathos, and probably not the public either, it would go a long way with the LENR community, and would be helpful in advancing LENR into the marketplace.

    • Alan Smith

      It’s a great idea Gerard, but under the present circumstances the burden of proof would be raised so high that an Ecat test by MFMP or me or indeed anyone of lesser stature than UL ably assisted by a troupe of Archangels would only make matters worse – muddying the waters even more. And it would bring down tremendous opprobrium on MFMP. Not to mention the fact that AR is not too happy with them or indeed anyone right now. When hot metal is flying across no-mans land, best not stand in the middle!

      • Gerard McEk

        Yes, I thinkyou are right Alan, although I personally have more confidence in MFMP than in UL under these extreme situation, considering the money they would ask. BTW, a while ago I have asked AR about this test in by MFMP and he replied positive about it.

        • Frank Acland

          You mean he was positive about having the MFMP test an E-Cat?

          • Gerard McEk

            Yes Frank he did. I think I asked him in February.

    • I agree.

  • Gerard McEk

    It would be extremely good when AR would decide to have a QuarkX or Ecat tested by MFMP. That would immediately turn all doubts into certainties. I would very much advise AR to do this. There is no need to look for changes in the fuel. Just a COP measurement would be fine. I would be prepared to fund this for the good of humanity.

    • SG

      Yes, this is precisely what needs to happen. While it would never convince the pathos, and probably not the public either, it would go a long way with the LENR community, and would be helpful in advancing LENR into the marketplace.

    • Alan Smith

      It’s a great idea Gerard, but under the present circumstances the burden of proof would be raised so high that an Ecat test by MFMP or me or indeed anyone of lesser stature than UL ably assisted by a troupe of Archangels would only make matters worse – muddying the waters even more. And it would bring down tremendous opprobrium on MFMP. Not to mention the fact that AR is not too happy with them or indeed anyone right now. When hot metal is flying across no-mans land, best not stand in the middle!

      • Gerard McEk

        Yes, I thinkyou are right Alan, although I personally have more confidence in MFMP than in UL under these extreme situation, considering the money they would ask. BTW, a while ago I have asked AR about this test in by MFMP and he replied positive about it.

        • Frank Acland

          You mean he was positive about having the MFMP test an E-Cat?

          • Gerard McEk

            Yes Frank he did. I think I asked him in February.

    • I agree.

  • Ted-Z

    The physical pre-treatment history is extremely difficult to reverse engineer. Reverse engineering of the composition is not a problem with the modern instrumental analysis.
    ———————–
    MFMP and other replications should concentrate on pre-treatment. Try cryogenic pre-treatment and the standard methods for pre-treatment of steel.

  • interstellar hobo

    My confidence in Rossi shrank when it was revealed how un-independent his independent verifier was. It’s like he did not even TRY to have the illusion of an independent tester. Industrial Heat were either in bed with the idea at that time, or they were gullible beyond belief. Generally people who play with those large amounts of money do some diligence, but not always. I think Rossi has something. But I don’t necessarily think he’s got something all that vastly different from other experimentesr. I would like to be proved wrong about that, but it’s been five years now, and he’s got nothing to show for it but flawed tests and more outlandish promises. This could all be ended by simply displaying the devices openly and publicly using calorimetric tests and neutron detectors. The investors would fly in, once he’s divested of IH and he’d have his face carved in a mountain somewhere long after he and the mountain of money he made are gone.

    If he DOES have something, he’s going to have to act quick, because LENR does not equal Rossi, and other experimenters are getting very close.

    • LCD

      I think it’s clear now that public tests have zero impact.

      But I agree with you that while the Rossi effect may be real I have yet to see evidence that it can be tamed by him.

      As much as I would like to get a crack at finding the theory behind the effect (through proper research) Rossi deserves time to do it himself.

      But the ethics of this are difficult because the importance to society is so great that there should almost be a new rule that both allows Rossi to cash in while openly sharing his immature method ( hint it’s not a patent).

      From where Rossi supposedly is now to product SHOULD NOT take long, but nobody has the confidence it will be quick.

      I agree Rossi is fighting independent testers, but to date no one has a repeatable method for LENR+.

    • Jerry Soloman

      what your trying to say is that maybe IH has his IP now after paying him 16 million and thats ok with you .

  • georgehants

    dms, so you seriously believe those with out money will be cared about any more than today.

  • Axil Axil

    I beleive that the EcatX might be under a secrecy order because of its similarity to the EMDrive.

    The physics is very cutting edge and not easy to understand.

    Rossi let out that the ECatX produced thrust without propellant but Rossi latter took it back as a mistake or misunderstanding in language. Somebody might have muzzled Rossi.

    http://www.e-catworld.com/2016/04/04/now-thrust-from-the-e-cat/comment-page-1/

    The ECatX might use the same physics as the EMdrive to produce thrust, but would be far more powerful.

    The new EMDrive theory as follows

    http://www.examiner.com/article/has-the-impossible-em-drive-being-tested-by-nasa-finally-been-explained

    Assuming the radiation emitted by a LENR reactor is hawking radiation, it might be possible that the LENR reactor will accelerate in its frame of reference because it changes the nature of the vacuum in its frame of reference relative to the inertial frame of the universe. Hawking radiation makes virtual particles into real particles.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unruh_effect

    Simply stated, if acceleration produces Unruh radiation then Hawking radiation will produce acceleration, if Unruh radiation is the same as Hawking radiation by the equivalence principle.

    A LENR reactor in space will produce a reactionless drive.

    Here is the reference that explains the justification for this statement:

    “Unruh radiation is the same as Hawking radiation by the equivalence principle.”

    Hawking radiation, Unruh radiation and the equivalence principle

    http://arxiv.org/abs/1102.5564

  • NT

    Yep, just more “efficient” and corrupt-able than the ole barter system…

  • LCD

    I think it’s clear now that public tests have zero impact.

    But I agree with you that while the Rossi effect may be real I have yet to see evidence that it can be tamed by him.

    As much as I would like to get a crack at finding the theory behind the effect (through proper research) Rossi deserves time to do it himself.

    But the ethics of this are difficult because the importance to society is so great that there should almost be a new rule that both allows Rossi to cash in while openly sharing his immature method ( hint it’s not a patent).

    From where Rossi supposedly is now to product SHOULD NOT take long, but nobody has the confidence it will be quick.

    I agree Rossi is fighting independent testers, but to date no one has a repeatable method for LENR+.

  • HS61AF91

    Maybe a speaker broadcasting sound above 25kHz?

  • Alan DeAngelis

    A replication would be great but on the other hand, this is the thanks John Bockris got for his DoE funded replication of F&P’s experiment
    in 1989. http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41uhl8x00LL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htgV7fNO-2k 13:20 min.

    • Obvious

      Get Gary to sign it before it’s too late.

  • Alan DeAngelis

    A replication would be great but on the other hand, this is the thanks John Bockris got for his DoE funded replication of F&P’s experiment
    in 1989. http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41uhl8x00LL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htgV7fNO-2k 13:20 min.

    • Obvious

      Get Gary to sign it before it’s too late.

    • Michael W Wolf

      working on fusion for decades, they got nothing? Now a single man, and five years, is too long so he is a fraud? Give me a break.

  • Karl Venter

    Most of us thought the independent evaluator (ERV)would be somebody like SGS TUV etc and that once and for all this would be put to bed it real and works.
    And now we have nothing but rossi says – definately a major flaw by both parties not to have a completely independent evaluator.
    Lugano hailed – but turned out iffy
    One year 1Mw hailed but turned out iffy
    EcatX hailed but turned out …………………

  • Karl Venter

    Most of us thought the independent evaluator (ERV)would be somebody like SGS TUV etc and that once and for all this would be put to bed it real and works.
    And now we have nothing but rossi says – definately a major flaw by both parties not to have a completely independent evaluator.
    Lugano hailed – but turned out iffy
    One year 1Mw hailed but turned out iffy
    EcatX hailed but turned out …………………

    • Michael W Wolf

      100’s of the so called greatest minds on earth have looked at the data. They say this. there MAY be measurement errors. Don’t you think that a possible world saving technology deserves more attention if it MAY not be measurement errors, but anomalous heat. Should they do the hard work and determine absolutely it is not measurement error?

      And if it is so hard for them to even determine whether there is anomalous heat, It is 100 times harder to get it scaled up. You use the term IFFY. This will change the world, shouldn’t we say it is working until we know for sure, not iffy? Why aren’t the greatest minds working to prove to the world once and for all, there is no anomalous heat, or there is? If they could have they would have. What does it all mean? We may well have a new energy source on earth and not enough people are working on it to bring it to the world as fast as possible.

  • psi2u2

    ” when nobody could reproduce the results.”

    There were successful replications from very early on. The fact of even one successful reproduction should have given the orthodoxists pause to reconsider their assumptions. Instead greed, ego, and clinging to old models prevailed.

    “And that whole electric mass transit conspiracy has always been nonsense. ”

    No, it was proven by Barry Commoner in the pages of the New Yorker. Your answer makes it clear that you do not even know what I am talking about, which is the destruction of the already existing, fully functional electric rail systems in most cities of north america. The technology was perfectly ready. It was in operation. Stop proclaiming about topics you don’t know anything about. I am through with this conversation. Good luck.

  • jousterusa

    The American Reporter (www.american-reporter.com) was the first online or print news pub in America to reveal the presence of the growing Zika virus threat to the Americas, and for that and similar scoops we’ve enjoyed being linked to by CNN for a long time. I would be in error to say they have been very interested in LENR, but now with the high-stakes lawsuits and the (pending) report, I think we can swing some major coverage from them. Any ideas for an angle?

  • jousterusa

    The American Reporter (www.american-reporter.com) was the first online or print news pub in America to reveal the presence of the growing Zika virus threat to the Americas, and for that and similar scoops we’ve enjoyed being linked to by CNN for a long time. I would be in error to say they have been very interested in LENR, but now with the high-stakes lawsuits and the (pending) report, I think we can swing some major coverage from them. Any ideas for an angle?

  • Josh G

    You obviously haven’t read Eugene Mallove’s investigative work on the conspiracy to cover up child’s fusion at MIT. In fact I would be surprised if you’ve read anything but your scripted talking points. But I’ll give you props. It takes real chutzpah to come on a website of cold fusion enthusiasts and declare without the slightest hint of irony or embarassment that there is no evidence of a world changing technology being suppressed. That’s rich. Thanks for giving me a laugh. I needed it.

  • Timar

    Mats Lewan just gave this update:

    “April 24. I have received a copy of an electricity
    statement, from Florida Power & Light Company, issued on JM Chemical
    Products Corp., for the period February 2 until March 2, 2015. The
    total amount of energy consumed is 7,251 kWh. Depending on when the
    plant was put in operation for the one-year test (assuming at the latest
    February 16) this indicates an average consumption of about 10 to 20
    kWh per hour. The Service Address on the statement is 7861 NW 46th
    Street, Doral, FL 33166-5470, which is the same as the official address
    listed for JM Products, and also where photos were taken that according
    to visitors to the plant looked like the place they visited. The amount
    charged is $1,266, while the amount for the previous month was $309,
    which is about a quarter, possibly indicating some early test activity.

    This statement proves that electricity corresponding to what the 1MW
    plant should have consumed at a successful COP of about 50 has been
    consumed at the address reportedly being where the test was undertaken.
    It doesn’t prove any production by the customer, nor anything about the
    amount of energy produced by the MW plant, and consequently nothing
    about the COP. My source is not Rossi.”

    • Mats002

      Good reliable info! As usual with LENR input power is managable, output is much harder.

      Of course some other source of input energy is possible but nevertheless a good start.

  • Timar

    Mats Lewan just gave this update:

    “April 24. I have received a copy of an electricity
    statement, from Florida Power & Light Company, issued on JM Chemical
    Products Corp., for the period February 2 until March 2, 2015. The
    total amount of energy consumed is 7,251 kWh. Depending on when the
    plant was put in operation for the one-year test (assuming at the latest
    February 16) this indicates an average consumption of about 10 to 20
    kWh per hour. The Service Address on the statement is 7861 NW 46th
    Street, Doral, FL 33166-5470, which is the same as the official address
    listed for JM Products, and also where photos were taken that according
    to visitors to the plant looked like the place they visited. The amount
    charged is $1,266, while the amount for the previous month was $309,
    which is about a quarter, possibly indicating some early test activity.

    This statement proves that electricity corresponding to what the 1MW
    plant should have consumed at a successful COP of about 50 has been
    consumed at the address reportedly being where the test was undertaken.
    It doesn’t prove any production by the customer, nor anything about the
    amount of energy produced by the MW plant, and consequently nothing
    about the COP. My source is not Rossi.”

    • Mats002

      Good reliable info! As usual with LENR input power is managable, output is much harder.

      Of course some other source of input energy is possible but nevertheless a good start.

  • Engineer48

    To who ever can answer these questions.

    I’m interested to know more about the Dog Bone HotCat reactors that were tested at Lugano.

    1) Were these reactors manufactured by IH as I have read?

    2) Did IH test the reactors COP prior to shipping them to the testers?

    3) If they were tested, what was the COP & info on any other tests that were performed prior to shipping?

    4) If they were not tested why would IH ship untested reactors to the testers?

    5) Did any IH people visit the test site or assist in the testing?

    Thanks in advance for your reply….

    • Obvious

      1. Yes.
      Rossi and Darden have said so, as well as the Lugano report.
      The rest of your questions I have seen no direct info for, although the general evidence seems to be that the Lugano reactor was not used before the test. Presumably it was expected to work.

      • Engineer48

        Why would IH ship a reactor they knew did not work as per their claim they never could substantiate Rossi’s work.

        The Lugano reactor was their build. Now they expect us to believe they developed a product that they never achieved a COP > 1? Very hard to believe.

        • Obvious

          One would tend to think that the design had been used before, and was expected to function. The winding pattern is very specific, as well as the fit of all the pieces, based on the patent application photos of the parts (converted to drawings later).
          Such a high current design would need some testing to confirm that it would not melt or short out immediately, IMO.

          • Engineer48

            My point is the Dog Bone design must have been tested at some time and found to achieve some expected COP.

            If it had a COP <=1 why ship it to Lugano to be subjected to independent verification?

            As for the shipping without testing, as a manufacturer, well past manufacturer, I can assure that no reputable manufacturer would ship an untested product, which would be run at 1,300C, for 30 days, into a independent verification process. No way would that ever happen. It is just opening the door to Murphy causing chaos.

          • Obvious

            I agree.

          • Engineer48

            Which implies that the IH statement about never being able to substantiate Rossi is not the truth.

            Their Dog Bone product makes their statement seem very strange.

          • Obvious

            I don’t know how or if COP was tested, but the Lugano device is a liability nightmare to hand out. It is electrically not far from wrapping a few coat hangers around a tube. Without the special control box, it is fire and death waiting to happen, if the main breaker was big enough to deliver the device’s maximum potential ampacity for a few seconds.

          • Engineer48

            So what is new?

            1,300C is HOT. If placed in the hands of someone not qualified to install and test it properly, sure it could damage property, people and maybe cause death.

            Same can be said for any high power / high temp device. Ever mishandle a Oxy torch or either of the gas bottles? Or a high power Arc welder? Or seen what happens when a high rpm grinding wheel explodes or molten metal flows across a shop floor that has some moisture content?

          • Obvious

            The thing is capable on paper of at least 66,000 W output until it fails, which would not be long. I’d sooner light O before A than plug the Lugano device into a circuit meant to deliver it’s peak power.

          • Engineer48

            I design control systems. Not a biggie to do. To the industrial heat world, the Dog Bone is a kiddy toy.

            Every play with a 40MW boiler with 1,500C exhaust products and 600C subcritical steam at very high pressure? Contact with either will do a very nasty and instant kill.

            Anyway the conversation has moved away from my intent, which was IH built the Dog Bone and shipped it to Lugano. That is public fact. There is no way they did not test the device’s COP before shipping it. To do anything else says they are incompetent.

          • Obvious

            Agreed again.
            What I mean is that device design had to be tested, a lot, to be sure that it could be made to work at all. Nobody normally thinks to build a heater like that. Usually the heater will have enough resistance to limit itself. In this case, the controller is the limit, and the heater will just take anything you give it until it or something in the supply line melts or a breaker thankfully shuts it down.

  • Engineer48

    To who ever can answer these questions.

    I’m interested to know more about the Dog Bone HotCat reactors that were tested at Lugano.

    1) Were these reactors manufactured by IH as I have read?

    2) Did IH test the reactors COP prior to shipping them to the testers?

    3) If they were tested, what was the COP & info on any other tests that were performed prior to shipping?

    4) If they were not tested why would IH ship untested reactors to the testers?

    5) Did any IH people visit the test site or assist in the testing?

    Thanks in advance for your reply….

    • Obvious

      1. Yes.
      Rossi (JoNP) and Darden (interview) have said so, as well as the Lugano report.
      The rest of your questions I have seen no direct info for, although the general evidence seems to be that the Lugano reactor was not used before the test. Presumably it was expected to work.

      • Engineer48

        Why would IH ship a reactor they knew did not work as per their claim they never could substantiate Rossi’s work.

        The Lugano reactor was their build. Now they expect us to believe they developed a product that they never achieved a COP > 1 and then sent it off untested to do a very high profile test? Very hard to believe.

        • Obvious

          One would tend to think that the design had been used before, and was expected to function. The winding pattern is very specific, as well as the fit of all the pieces, based on the patent application photos of the parts (converted to drawings later).
          Such a high current design would need some testing to confirm that it would not melt or short out immediately, IMO. It is an electrically frightening design that cannot just be plugged in. It requires strong consideration of the power supply.

          • Engineer48

            My point is the Dog Bone design must have been tested at some time and found to achieve some expected COP.

            If it had a COP <=1 why ship it to Lugano to be subjected to independent verification?

            As for the shipping without testing, as a manufacturer, well past manufacturer, I can assure that no reputable manufacturer would ship an untested product, which would be run at 1,300C, for 30 days, into a independent verification process. No way would that ever happen. It is just opening the door to Murphy causing chaos.

          • Obvious

            I agree.

          • Engineer48

            Which implies that the IH statement about never being able to substantiate Rossi is not the truth.

            Their HotCat Dog Bone product makes their statement seem very strange.

          • Obvious

            I don’t know how or if COP was tested, but the Lugano device is a liability nightmare to hand out. It is electrically not far from wrapping a few coat hangers around a tube. Without the special control box, it is fire and death waiting to happen, if the main breaker was big enough to deliver the device’s maximum potential ampacity for a few seconds.

          • Engineer48

            So what is new?

            1,300C is HOT. If placed in the hands of someone not qualified to install and test it properly, sure it could damage property, people and maybe cause death.

            Same can be said for any high power / high temp device. Ever mishandle a Oxy torch or either of the gas bottles? Or a high power Arc welder? Or seen what happens when a high rpm grinding wheel explodes or molten metal flows across a shop floor that has some moisture content?

          • Obvious

            The thing is capable on paper of at least 66,000 W output until it fails, which would not be long. I’d sooner light O before A than plug a loaded Lugano device into a circuit meant to deliver it’s peak power.

          • Engineer48

            I design control systems. Not a biggie to do. To the industrial heat world, the Dog Bone is a kiddy toy.

            Every play with a 40MW boiler with 1,500C exhaust products and 600C subcritical steam at very high pressure? Contact with either will do a very nasty and instant kill.

            Anyway the conversation has moved away from my intent, which was IH built the Dog Bone and shipped it to Lugano. That is public fact. There is no way they did not test the device’s COP before shipping it. To do anything else says they are incompetent.

          • Obvious

            Agreed again.
            What I mean is that device design had to be tested, a lot, to be sure that it could be made to work at all. Nobody normally thinks to build a heater like that. Usually the heater will have enough resistance to limit itself. In this case, the controller is the limit, and the heater will just take anything you give it until it or something in the supply line melts, or a breaker thankfully shuts it down.

  • Josh G

    Really, you should take your own advice and just let this go — you just keep putting your foot deeper and deeper down your throat. You’ve already lost this argument and you don’t even realize it.

    You’ve got things upside-down and inside-out. I’m not the one who is “determined to believe” in anything. My belief that there was a conspiracy to bury cold fusion is based on evidence. My understanding of how the incentives of academia work to marginalize experimental results that challenge the existing paradigm (as well as the existing flow of grant money) is based on well understood dynamics of the scientific field based on historical studies of science (like Kuhn) and boatloads of studies of peer review, in addition to my own personal experience. You don’t even need to posit a conspiracy to understand that. All you need is a brain and dash of common sense, both of which you sorely lack.

    You are the one who is determined to deny any conspiracy, despite all the evidence for it. You are the one who is determined to believe in some fairy-tale notion of science and academia where everyone is a champion of the truth, no matter how painful. I wish I could live in your fantasy world, but I prefer to deal with things as they are.

    As for a magic .pdf that will provide evidence for cold fusion — just have a look-see over at lenr-canr.org. You’ll find lots of .pdfs there. I’m not going to bother linking to any of them, because I know how this works: you’ve established an arbitrary threshold about the evidence you need to prove that LENR is real, but as soon as I send you a pdf that will satisfy you, you will change the goal posts. Repeatedly. I’m too weary of shills to play that game with you, as I don’t care playing Charlie Brown to your Lucy. Anybody who has seriously studied the LENR phenomenon knows that your criteria have been met. You’ll have to find someone else to take your bait. If you’re genuinely curious, go ask Jed Rothwell. But since you’re not genuinely interested in LENR (which I infer from your ignorance of the field), I can’t imagine you’ll actually do that.

  • NCkhawk

    Mats just shut down and deleted the comments section in his “search for the truth”.
    What’s up with that?