This is What I Know for Sure (Roger Bird)

The following post has been submitted by Roger Bird

The following is what I am certain of with regard to cold fusion:

LENR is real:

Mike McKubre observed real LENR repeatedly at SRI: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtweR_qGHEc

Pam Mosier-Boss observed real LENR repeatedly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLuTRReSIrg

This is not an exhaustive list, but it is sufficient for me to be certain that LENR exists.

As far as LENR+ and the E-Cat is concerned, the following 2 links gives me certainty:

The 2013 Ferrara report: http://arxiv.org/abs/1305.3913

The 2014 Lugano report: http://www.elforsk.se/Global/Omv%C3%A4rld_system/filer/LuganoReportSubmit.pdf

Beyond that, there are greater or lesser degrees of uncertainty, but no absolute certainty.

Did Darden and Vaughn observe excess heat? Probably.

Did the 1 year 1 MW plant fail? I don’t know, and this is the really big uncertainty.

Is Darden and Vaughn stabbing Rossi in the back? I don’t know.

Is Rossi difficult to work with? Almost certainly.

Is the value and certainty of Fabiano Fulvio’s testimony trashed? For me, thanks to this E-Cat bickering, certainly. Hopefully this is only temporary, but for now I cannot believe what he had to say.

I invite people to present links that show certainty or at least greater certainty on various aspects of the LENR and LENR+ than I have presented I am sure that I have failed to list many certainties. We need to keep track of these certainties and bring them to mind every now and then so as to not become discouraged. I will copy and save any links that improve certainty, and I will appreciate anyone giving us those links.

Respectfully submitted,

Roger Bird, aka bachcole

  • hempenearth

    It is difficult not to be discouraged. IIRC there were two other licensees that fell out with Rossi before IH – Prometeon run by that very professional chap in Italy and the Swiss? one run by some colourful characters. Why do I remember that Tesla died alone and broke? Sorry, bad day at work.

    • I’m not sure of the timing, but it seems likely that when IH became involved (perhaps during the discussion phase), they may have wanted AR to shed the ‘licensees’ as a condition of their support.

      • Sam

        At some point there was a letter posted here on E-cat world with a complaint from one of the licensee’s (I think) who was being bought out. Was it not an Italian person?

        He complained about this with negative wording. Do you remember?

        • Frank Acland

          It was Aldo Proia of Prometeon

    • bachcole

      I am not discouraged for the long run, but I confess that I am not going around excitedly telling people about LENR and the E-Cat until we get some new certainty.

      Does anyone know what Elforsk is up to?

      And who is Rossi’s mysterious customer?

  • Nicolas Chauvin

    The TEDx talk from Prof. S. Focardi is also quite interesting. Focardi truly believed in Rossi’s E-Cat.
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eGmgTo2Kw1U

    There is a version with English subs.

    • Jonnyb

      That’s enough for me, always was!!

    • bachcole

      Nice, except my seeing of this video is does not show English subs. I don’t know why. Perhaps it doesn’t like me operating system. If this showed subs on my system I would definitely save the link.

      • artefact

        Works for me.

      • Mark Underwood

        In the Settings icon (the gear looking thingie) there is an option for enabling subtitles. I just enabled mine and it worked.

      • HS61AF91

        Rog
        try this copy the ‘video URL’ and bring it up in a new window. Then go to the settings icon, click on the ‘off’ to turn on the subtitles. In the options menu that appears, select ‘English’. May be a way to get around your system.

    • bachcole

      Thank you, Nicolas. I got the English subs on and I accept this as a primary certainty source. Thank you, again.

  • sam

    Rossi has to like a person to work with them.
    One reason that he might have chosen Penon.
    He needed an EVR he could work with.

  • Stefenski

    We need an Edgar Cayce for this mess. He would have told us how it all went together.

    On the other hand he always pointed out – that unless there was co-operation between the parties involved, Failure would be the result.

    • Between them, Torkel Nyberg (‘Sifferkoll’) and Mats Lewan are doing a pretty good job of trying to untangle the mess:

      http://www.sifferkoll.se/

      https://animpossibleinvention.com/2016/04/20/lets-join-forces-to-bring-out-the-truth-on-rossi-ih-affair/

      • Unfortunately the comments on Mats’ ‘bring out the truth’ thread have quickly degenerated from possible evidence to general comment and opinion, including predictable Rossi abuse from some ECN regulars. He may need to moderate the thread to keep it from filling up with fluff – perhaps by moving important information to a comments-disabled sub-thread.

        • georgehants

          Peter, I think in this situation there is only so much Truth that can possibly be ascertained.
          It is now only that old man of time that can let further Evidence into the story.
          Or a damn good Psychic.

          • Hi George. That’s true – there is a lot of half truth and outright deceit on both sides, and it’s harder than ever to work out what is really going on. Establishing an evidence base might at least have narrowed the field and so reduced the amount of speculation that doesn’t conform with the little we do (think we) know – but unless Mats gets ruthless with his thread, any useful information will continue to be swamped out by speculation, opinion and trolling.

            BTW I fully agree with your comment elsewhere about repetition on this blog. I suppose that once the volume of comments passes a certain level it becomes too much to bother to read, so people post anyway without checking to see if anyone has already said much the same. I think that’s what Mats was trying to cut through, with his evidence project.

            Now, lets see what my tealeaves have to say about this…

        • Pekka Janhunen

          Fortunately the layout of Mats’ blog is such that it’s fast to bypass comments based on the author, because the author’s name and icon is alone in the left column.

    • HS61AF91

      Maybe Edgar Cayce’es current reincarnation would help. That appears to be none other than David Wilcock, but suspect it may be out of his areas of expertise. His admonishment about co-operation is really pertinent, for sure.

  • Bob

    I would have to question your listing of the Lugano report as good reason for certainty.
    .
    Almost all of the Pro-LENR scientist have dismissed this report as extremely flawed, possibly fatally so. Ranging COP from .9 to 1.2, which could still be in the percentage of error due to the extremely high energy level being measured. It is not a simple task! I visit Vortex-L frequently and there have been many very good, reasonable, “un-emotional” discussions about the Lugano report and the majority conclusion seems that it is seriously flawed. Others such as Bob Greenyer have also posted conclusions with supporting evidence that it is flawed. While emotions run high, we do need to look at the facts as you state.
    .
    The Lugano testers have gone completely silent and not responded to any questions or critiques. Normally, a testing group would answer logical and reasonable questions about their work, this is how peer review works. For some reason, nothing is heard from them at all.
    .
    The fuel analysis was extremely interesting, but also quite controversial. The fact that Rossi did not allow anyone to handle the fuel will automatically inject large uncertainly to some. To others, it is of no concern at all. However, it is a fact that must be considered. My personal take on it is that it makes the fuel analysis uncertain. Rossi has admitted before (with Defkalion) that he switched the sauce so to speak to protect his IP. He is extremely protective of it. I am not stating that he did, I am just stating that without confirmation or replication, the Lugano fuel analysis cannot be held as uncontroversial. It is suspect.
    .
    Unfortunately, if Lugano is removed, that reduces the certainty factor list by 50%.
    .
    I agree with you that Rossi seems difficult to work with. The supporting evidence is that ALL announced major companies have walked away from Rossi even though they could have been involved in the biggest discovery of the century. Seimens, National Instruments, NASA and now IH. Per Rossi’s words, these entities were intimately involved to some degree and yet they all walked away. This is quite telling.
    .
    The biggest detractor in my opinion to the eCat saga is Rossi himself. He has continuously posted about “Robotised factories” ready for production since 2012. Yet he posts in recent months that he is working with ABB to develop his production line. Posted since 2012 that the eCat will be on the market within 6 months, but never is. Even November of 2015.. if the ERV report is positive, production will start very quickly. He has posted about secret customers and tests before (again 2012) but nothing every came of it. His mode of operandi seems to be… always secret, always NDA’s, always big and important players. Yet it never really turns out.
    .
    Things do happen with projects. Sometimes snafus develop. Yet I have followed this saga for 5 years and we are no closer to knowing for sure whether the eCat works or not. This is my biggest negative. With a COP of 6, there should be no question by now. During that same 5 years, Musk has launched rockets into space and landed one on a boat! There were failures and setbacks yes! But no one doubts he did what he said he did! This story should and could be similar but it is not. That is a big negative.
    .
    At some point I had to ask myself… when will all the BS quit and the truth be known? So far, 5 years has not been long enough evidently!

    • f sedei

      Frustrating, indeed. But understandably so.Rossi’s endeavors should not be compared to Musk’s. Musk is working with known science and technology. LENR is an absolutely new and little unknown phenomenon. We really still don’t know what LENR is. It is in it’s infancy in the scientific world. Yet, to my way of thinking, enough has been accomplished through Rossi research to prove LENR is real and to gain patents. That in itself is a brilliant unrelenting accomplishment by the genius, Andrea Rossi. Patience–the best is yet to come (we all hope).

      • cashmemorz

        We, at least some of us are sure you mean “known phenomenon”. Knowledge/grammar police have spoken.

    • Lux Terrea

      Well stated. There is no iron clad evidence for Rossi’s e-cat. I wish there was. I want it to be true but nothing has yet been proven.

    • bachcole

      The Lugano report is certain enough for me. I don’t care that Pro-LENR scientists have dismissed this report.

      • Pekka Janhunen

        To me also the Lugano report is good enough. In the sense that the COP value might be somewhat overestimated in it, but their conclusion COP>1 seems robust to me.
        Everything that can be done can be done better, but also “better” is the enemy of “good”.

      • Anon2012_2014

        Roger/Bach,

        Lugano was not run for long enough and had too much internal volume (material) that could have been chemically combusted. For all we know, Lugano could have combusted the cylinder. Worse, the amount of charge in the system was not conclusively measured as the mass before and after was the same, with Rossi removing the fuel behind the curtain. This unchanged measurement suggest measurement error.

        Finally, the measurements were made on unknown emissivity of the unit.

        I will wait for a more conclusive test than Lugano. I suspect that LENR is a fact, but i can’t say proven beyond doubt.

    • Stanny Demesmaker

      You miss a few keypoints of the lugano report

      -IH build the reactor
      -Rossi had nothing to do with the test setup
      -Even on vortex the consensus was that there was excess heat
      -the testers didn’t use the SSM

      The question with Rossi is not that he can generate Kw’s of excess heat it’s that he can create a commercial ready reactor.

      • I.e., one which can be built at reasonable cost, turns on/off easily and is controllable (safe from thermal runaway), is safe and requires minimal operator attention, and from which heat can be freely extracted without quenching the nucleonic reaction.

        All in all, probably quite a jump from a bench prototype (‘quark’) or even from a running prototype (‘pilot plant’).

      • bob

        I would make a couple of corrections to your list, at least to my understanding.
        .
        1) IH may have made the reactor tube (we have nothing bur Rossi says for this), but we have no confirmation that IH made the fuel or any internal parts. Many have assumed this, but we do not know. IH responsed to the lawsuit stating they could not substantiate the eCat. I suspect it relates to the fuel, not the reactor tube.
        .
        2) Rossi certainly had much to do with the test setup. The Lugano report states that Rossi loaded and unloaded the fuel into the reactor. That they were not allowed to handle it. I am not saying that Rossi did anything wrong, but it is not correct to state that he had nothing to do with the test.
        .
        3) I would agree that the consensus on Vortex-l was that there MAY have been excess heat. but only a very small amount if any. If the question only pertained to LENR, then I would say yes, it is evidence. If the question does the eCat work at high COP for sustained periods, then the Lugano test does nothing to confirm that at all.
        .
        4) We do not have any evidence that there is a SSM, much less that they could have used it. Again, a Rossi says, but no confirmation of any kind on this! We could say that they did not use a Quark-X and produce electricity directly, but it would fall under the same category. There is no data that says SSM has ever been seen except “Rossi says”. (I believe replicator ME-356 states he has seen SSM, but I do not know how close his setup is to the eCat. It could be good evidence, I have not followed his experiment to date)
        .
        Truthfully, without the “Rossi says” posts, we would not even be here discussing this. 99% of what this blog discuss come from only one source… Rossi posts. We have to remember that even the lawsuit is a Rossi says… IH has stated it is without merit. I do not know which is right. Probably as with most things in the world, it is not black or white, but shades of gray. Bits of truth in the Rossi says and truth in what IH will say. One will have to analyze them together to see who is telling the “most truth”! 🙂

    • Michael W Wolf

      Or it could be anomalous heat. This is so big that every worth while scientist should have been interested long ago. And since they weren’t, They are the worthless scientists of the future yesteryear. A world changing energy source even hinted at should have been funded fully. It is evil what has happened in LENR. And all the BS came from LENR deniers. They have stunted the freeing of the world. And I hate them for it.

    • Omega Z

      Seimens, Consulted about minimum requirements of steam output and quality to power their smallest turbine generator. This was pre-Hot cat. Only the low temp reactor existed at that time.

      National Instruments, Was Consulted about electronic controls. It was about this time that Rossi engaged Fulvio Fabiani to build custom controls and software to control the e-cats.

      The Lugano team are doing their own research. Like most everyone else, they have little to say. I find it highly probable that should Rossi become silent, that would be used against him as evidence that he has nothing.

      People either don’t know or forget that the reason Rossi went public to begin with is due to Focardi. By late 2010, Focardi was concerned about health issues and age and wanted to see LENR go public while still around to witness it. Rossi was actually concerned that his technology wasn’t mature enough for public demo’s. Note this was stated by Focardi himself in a video.

      Bob, Your posts read much like a new energy times article. Is that where you get all your info or is Bob just a Krivit pseudonym.

      HOT FUSION: At some point I had to ask myself… when will all the BS quit and the truth be known? So far, 50+ years and hundreds of Billion$ has not been enough evidently!

      • cashmemorz

        Whether Hot fusion is BS or not is not the issue for those funding(concerned governments) hot fusion. It is a last hope for saving the environment, AT ALL COSTS. To entertain BS or scam is something that cannot be allowed to enter their consciousness. Such a truth would be too much too bear. Also lobbyists for hot fusion are continuing their hard work and it is probably getting harder for them the more success LENR shows. LENR was talked about as a possibilty on Capitol Hill last year. It didn’t seem to cause much waves. Probably the show didn’t promise enough. Based on this scenario I expect the war against LENR to increase in strength.

  • Bob

    I would have to question your listing of the Lugano report as good reason for certainty.
    .
    Almost all of the Pro-LENR scientist have dismissed this report as extremely flawed, possibly fatally so. Ranging COP from .9 to 1.2, which could still be in the percentage of error due to the extremely high energy level being measured. It is not a simple task! I visit Vortex-L frequently and there have been many very good, reasonable, “un-emotional” discussions about the Lugano report and the majority conclusion seems that it is seriously flawed. Others such as Bob Greenyer have also posted conclusions with supporting evidence that it is flawed. While emotions run high, we do need to look at the facts as you state.
    .
    The Lugano testers have gone completely silent and not responded to any questions or critiques. Normally, a testing group would answer logical and reasonable questions about their work, this is how peer review works. For some reason, nothing is heard from them at all.
    .
    The fuel analysis was extremely interesting, but also quite controversial. The fact that Rossi did not allow anyone to handle the fuel will automatically inject large uncertainly to some. To others, it is of no concern at all. However, it is a fact that must be considered. My personal take on it is that it makes the fuel analysis uncertain. Rossi has admitted before (with Defkalion) that he switched the sauce so to speak to protect his IP. He is extremely protective of it. I am not stating that he did, I am just stating that without confirmation or replication, the Lugano fuel analysis cannot be held as uncontroversial. It is suspect.
    .
    Unfortunately, if Lugano is removed, that reduces the certainty factor list by 50%.
    .
    I agree with you that Rossi seems difficult to work with. The supporting evidence is that ALL announced major companies have walked away from Rossi even though they could have been involved in the biggest discovery of the century. Seimens, National Instruments, NASA and now IH. Per Rossi’s words, these entities were intimately involved to some degree and yet they all walked away. This is quite telling.
    .
    The biggest detractor in my opinion to the eCat saga is Rossi himself. He has continuously posted about “Robotised factories” ready for production since 2012. Yet he posts in recent months that he is working with ABB to develop his production line. Posted since 2012 that the eCat will be on the market within 6 months, but never is. Even November of 2015.. if the ERV report is positive, production will start very quickly. He has posted about secret customers and tests before (again 2012) but nothing every came of it. His mode of operandi seems to be… always secret, always NDA’s, always big and important players. Yet it never really turns out.
    .
    Things do happen with projects. Sometimes snafus develop. Yet I have followed this saga for 5 years and we are no closer to knowing for sure whether the eCat works or not. This is my biggest negative. With a COP of 6, there should be no question by now. During that same 5 years, Musk has launched rockets into space and landed one on a boat! There were failures and setbacks yes! But no one doubts he did what he said he did! This story should and could be similar but it is not. That is a big negative.
    .
    At some point I had to ask myself… when will all the BS quit and the truth be known? So far, 5 years has not been long enough evidently!

    • Bruce__H

      Good summary. On a larger scale, LENR results over 30 years have never risen above the sort of noise you always get with experimental results. That says something.

      I view the current MFMP experiments, whether they are successful or not, as a wonderful front row seat on how pure research actually proceeds. These groups are proceeding in an optimistic and open-minded, but properly skeptical fashion to try and find results. So far I’ve seen nothing compelling but that doesn’t mean that the search isn’t worthwhile. Once again we see that the results fail to rise above experimental error … exactly what researchers were seeing 30 years ago after Pons and Fleischman made their announcement.

    • f sedei

      Frustrating, indeed. But understandably so.Rossi’s endeavors should not be compared to Musk’s. Musk is working with known science and technology. LENR is an absolutely new and little unknown phenomenon. We really still don’t know what LENR is. It is in it’s infancy in the scientific world. Yet, to my way of thinking, enough has been accomplished through Rossi research to prove LENR is real and to gain patents. That in itself is a brilliant unrelenting accomplishment by the genius, Andrea Rossi. Patience–the best is yet to come (we all hope).

      • cashmemorz

        We, at least some of us are sure you mean “known phenomenon”. Knowledge/grammar police have spoken.

    • Lux Terrea

      Well stated. There is no iron clad evidence for Rossi’s e-cat. I wish there was. I want it to be true but nothing has yet been proven.

    • bachcole

      The Lugano report is certain enough for me. I don’t care that Pro-LENR scientists have dismissed this report.

      • Pekka Janhunen

        To me also the Lugano report is good enough. In the sense that the COP value might be somewhat overestimated in it, but their conclusion COP>1 seems robust to me.
        Everything that can be done can be done better, but also “better” is the enemy of “good”.

        • bachcole

          Thank you, Pekka. Even really smart people agree with me on that one.

      • Anon2012_2014

        Roger/Bach,

        Lugano was not run for long enough and had too much internal volume (material) that could have been chemically combusted. For all we know, Lugano could have combusted the cylinder. Worse, the amount of charge in the system was not conclusively measured as the mass before and after was the same, with Rossi removing the fuel behind the curtain. This unchanged measurement suggest measurement error.

        Finally, the measurements were made on unknown emissivity of the unit.

        I will wait for a more conclusive test than Lugano. I suspect that LENR is a fact, but i can’t say proven beyond doubt.

        • bachcole

          I just don’t see how combustible material could keep that cylinder red hot for 4 days. You are assuming that the testers don’t all have noses.

        • bachcole

          To keep a combustion going for 4 days would require a lot of smell, over powering smell. No such smell was reported.

        • “Lugano was not run for long enough and had too much internal volume (material) that could have been chemically combusted.”

          32 days is not long enough?

          “The test lasted for 32 days and was performed in Lugano, Switerland from 24 Feb 2014 to 29 Mar 2014.”

          http://lenrftw.net/assessing_ecat_report.html

    • Stanny Demesmaker

      You miss a few keypoints of the lugano report

      -IH build the reactor
      -Rossi had nothing to do with the test setup
      -Even on vortex the consensus was that there was excess heat
      -the testers didn’t use the SSM

      The question with Rossi is not that he can generate Kw’s of excess heat it’s that he can create a commercial ready reactor.

      • I.e., one which can be built at reasonable cost, turns on/off easily and is controllable (safe from thermal runaway), doesn’t emit harmful radiation, requires minimal operator attention, and from which heat can be freely extracted without quenching the nucleonic reaction.

        All in all, probably quite a jump from a bench experiment (‘quark’) or even from a running prototype (‘pilot plant’).

      • bob

        I would make a couple of corrections to your list, at least to my understanding.
        .
        1) IH may have made the reactor tube (we have nothing bur Rossi says for this), but we have no confirmation that IH made the fuel or any internal parts. Many have assumed this, but we do not know. IH responsed to the lawsuit stating they could not substantiate the eCat. I suspect it relates to the fuel, not the reactor tube.
        .
        2) Rossi certainly had much to do with the test setup. The Lugano report states that Rossi loaded and unloaded the fuel into the reactor. That they were not allowed to handle it. I am not saying that Rossi did anything wrong, but it is not correct to state that he had nothing to do with the test.
        .
        3) I would agree that the consensus on Vortex-l was that there MAY have been excess heat. but only a very small amount if any. If the question only pertained to LENR, then I would say yes, it is evidence. If the question does the eCat work at high COP for sustained periods, then the Lugano test does nothing to confirm that at all.
        .
        4) We do not have any evidence that there is a SSM, much less that they could have used it. Again, a Rossi says, but no confirmation of any kind on this! We could say that they did not use a Quark-X and produce electricity directly, but it would fall under the same category. There is no data that says SSM has ever been seen except “Rossi says”. (I believe replicator ME-356 states he has seen SSM, but I do not know how close his setup is to the eCat. It could be good evidence, I have not followed his experiment to date)
        .
        Truthfully, without the “Rossi says” posts, we would not even be here discussing this. 99% of what this blog discuss come from only one source… Rossi posts. We have to remember that even the lawsuit is a Rossi says… IH has stated it is without merit. I do not know which is right. Probably as with most things in the world, it is not black or white, but shades of gray. Bits of truth in the Rossi says and truth in what IH will say. One will have to analyze them together to see who is telling the “most truth”! 🙂

      • bachcole

        Stanny, thank you for that. Do you have links that substantiate those 3 points?

    • rocky172534

      its all a big fraud bob! there ,does that put a smile on your face?

    • Michael W Wolf

      Or it could be anomalous heat. This is so big that every worth while scientist should have been interested long ago. And since they weren’t, They are the worthless scientists of the future yesteryear. A world changing energy source even hinted at should have been funded fully. It is evil what has happened in LENR. And all the BS came from LENR deniers. They have stunted the freeing of the world. And I hate them for it.

    • Omega Z

      Seimens, Consulted about minimum requirements of steam output and quality to power their smallest turbine generator. This was pre-Hot cat. Only the low temp reactor existed at that time.

      National Instruments, Was Consulted about electronic controls. It was about this time that Rossi engaged Fulvio Fabiani to build custom controls and software to control the e-cats.

      The Lugano team are doing their own research. Like most everyone else, they have little to say. I find it highly probable that should Rossi become silent, that would be used against him as evidence that he has nothing.

      People either don’t know or forget that the reason Rossi went public to begin with is due to Focardi. By late 2010, Focardi was concerned about health issues and age and wanted to see LENR go public while still around to witness it. Rossi was actually concerned that his technology wasn’t mature enough for public demo’s. Note this was stated by Focardi himself in a video.

      Bob, Your posts read much like a new energy times article. Is that where you get all your info or is Bob just a Krivit pseudonym.

      HOT FUSION: At some point I had to ask myself… when will all the BS quit and the truth be known? So far, 50+ years and hundreds of Billion$ has not been enough evidently!

      • cashmemorz

        Whether Hot fusion is BS or not is not the issue for those funding(concerned governments) hot fusion. It is a last hope for saving the environment, AT ALL COSTS. To entertain BS or scam is something that cannot be allowed to enter their consciousness. Such a truth would be too much too bear. Also lobbyists for hot fusion are continuing their hard work and it is probably getting harder for them the more success LENR shows. LENR was talked about as a possibilty on Capitol Hill last year. It didn’t seem to cause much waves. Probably the show didn’t promise enough. Based on this scenario I expect the war against LENR to increase in strength.

  • Steve Swatman

    Here is what I know for certain:
    NOTHING!

    BUT,

    I believe Dr Rossi has something, I believe he has put his heart and soul into whatever he thinks he has, and I believe the truth will come out, one day.

    I just wish it was sooner, rather than later.

    • bachcole

      I agree that via the internet, and even in real life, nothing is absolutely certain. My certainty is a relative certainty, like I am certain that the president gave a speech on the day that the news media reported him having given a speech that day.

      • Steve Swatman

        Certainty is like truth, they are both single grains of sand, hidden in a desert of lies, blown asunder by a storm of media, financial and political obfuscation.

        • HS61AF91

          Think about you own feelings, you own intuition, therein reside the grains of certainty, that becomes real!

          • Steve Swatman

            This why I accept the possibility of Dr Rossi’s success, even if its only a COP 3, its a proof of concept.
            However., I also believe that Rossi’s work ethic and constant struggle against the flow is real, and his belief fuels mine, and that is the only certainty I have, I am certain that I believe in Dr Rossi, his work ethic and his tenacity.

          • clovis ray

            is that like a gut feeling, lol

  • Mark Underwood

    “I invite people to present links that show certainty or at least greater certainty on various aspects of the LENR and LENR+ ”

    One video I enjoy is this one:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxBJjWzlKl0
    where various people, in particular Stanislaw Szpak, give accounts of their experience. I just love Szpak’s excitement over what he is convinced of: cold fusion is real. He is convinced because he is a seasoned experimentalist and he knows what he has seen, conventional abstract theory be damned.

    That being said, I’m no seeker of ‘certainty’ in these things. I’ve become fond of the journey of suspense and the unfolding of what has been unknown. What is really going on in ‘cold fusion’ is really unknown to me. Whether Rossi actually has a greatly enhanced version of cold fusion is uncertain to me. What I do know is that I enjoy giving people like Rossi the benefit of the doubt. He is intelligent, tenacious, passionate and industrious in energy research , and I admire that. He seems principled and and ethical to me. In short, I believe the guy.

    At the same time, I haven’t forgotten a video I viewed last year, a video taken some years ago by Krivit interviewing Rossi, showing Rossi struggling to do simple calorimetric calculations on an early version of the eCat he was demonstrating to Krivit. It remains truly puzzling to me. More contrast, contradiction, and uncertainty. Bring it on.

    • uDevil

      That’s a great video! The only thing I am certain of is uncertainty. But there are levels of uncertainty… I hope we can get a better understanding of CF. As for Rossi, he may be even more complicated than CF.

  • Mark Underwood

    “I invite people to present links that show certainty or at least greater certainty on various aspects of the LENR and LENR+ ”

    One video I enjoy is this one:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxBJjWzlKl0
    where various people, in particular Stanislaw Szpak, give accounts of their experience. I just love Szpak’s excitement over what he is convinced of: cold fusion is real. He is convinced because he is a seasoned experimentalist and he knows what he has seen, conventional abstract theory be damned.

    That being said, I’m no seeker of ‘certainty’ in these things. I’ve become fond of the journey of suspense and the unfolding of what has been unknown. What is really going on in ‘cold fusion’ is really unknown to me. Whether Rossi actually has a greatly enhanced version of cold fusion is uncertain to me. What I do know is that I enjoy giving people like Rossi the benefit of the doubt. He is intelligent, tenacious, passionate and industrious in energy research , and I admire that. He seems principled and and ethical to me. In short, I believe the guy.

    At the same time, I haven’t forgotten a video I viewed last year, a video taken some years ago by Krivit interviewing Rossi, showing Rossi struggling to do simple calorimetric calculations on an early version of the eCat he was demonstrating to Krivit. It remains truly puzzling to me. More contrast, contradiction, and uncertainty. Bring it on.

    • uDevil

      That’s a great video! The only thing I am certain of is uncertainty. But there are levels of uncertainty… I hope we can get a better understanding of CF. As for Rossi, he may be even more complicated than CF.

  • lkelemen

    for me the fact is enough that Rossi is suing IH

    • Alex Fenrick

      Without knowing the facts yet….it really makes no sense that the lawsuit that will expose the facts would be your actual fact to know what is going on. That just makes no sense to me.

  • lkelemen

    for me the fact is enough that Rossi is suing IH

    • Bruce__H

      Why?

      If Rossi is a fraud he can only make money by deceiving people into paying him or by lawsuits. The usual route — making and selling a working product — is off the table.

      So Rossi launching a lawsuit doesn’t tell us much either way.

      • lkelemen

        If the trial is about whether the ecat works or not then the judge must order a new independent test and Rossi knows this and still initiated the trial so Rossi is sure that it works. If the trial is about the IP then the ecat works.

        • Michael W Wolf

          Exactly right.

        • Bob

          This is a good question, and I am not sure what the protocol would be!
          You state that the judge would order a new independent test.
          .
          Who would pick the independent testers? The judge? He/she would have no technical knowledge about such things. Would MIT get appointed somehow? They are completely biased and would immediately be rejected by Rossi. I doubt that Rossi would ever accept an accredited testing agency as he has not done so in the past.
          .
          Who would build the reactor? Rossi? If so, would all the details be given and revealed? I believe this is part of the lawsuit.. IH may be claiming Rossi never gave them “the goods” so to speak.
          .
          AND who would pay for it? This would be expensive. In the tens of thousands of dollars. Is IH innocent until proven guilty? Do they have to pay to protect their reputation? Since Rossi brought the suit, would it be on him to prove it works and thus pay for it?
          (For 89 million, it would be a good return!). However, it is not trivial.
          .
          I am not sure that a judge would or could require an independent test. I am more inclined to think they would subpoena “experts” to testify whether the 1 year test was valid or not, depending on the data, how the data was collected and upon accepted theory. This of course would go against Rossi as most experts would give testimony that Cold Fusion is impossible. It would be very interesting to sit in the court room for sure!
          .
          ….So this got me to thinking on a somewhat unrelated topic…..
          .
          I wonder if I called Fox TV and offered a mini-series on the upcoming trial, I could sell them on it. Let’s see…. man once jailed in Italy for crimes, then exonerated….and now again being accused of fraud. … hmmm ….sounds a lot like the show “Making a murderer!” Elderly lone individual against “The Powers that Be”…. hmmm… sounds kind of like another recent movie as well. We have lies and subterfuge…. we have big dollars at stake… we have a touch of science fiction …. we have the Climate Change angle…. we have the Mid East oil Sultans… we have ruthless capitalists…. we have the down trodden, misunderstood, saintly man who is being warred against by the hurricane blogosphere! All the script I can take right from the posts on this site! Man, I see a #1, Oscar contending hit! Sign me up!….
          .
          🙂

          • clovis ray

            all Dr R has to do is get a decision on the breach, for non payment, that would be the end of it, and personally i use to do the same thing when a customer i knew was not trustworthy, i would put a hidden valve in the wall somewhere, and if he didn’t pay, then i would leave the valve closed, there would be no service and would cost him more to have it all taken out, than pay me, when payment was made, i would simply open the hidden, valve. and i had to use it a few times. if I/H had not tried to steal his I/P, and had handed over to him the 89 mill, he would have had to say, ok just turn that valve, and it works, SMILE.

          • Omega Z

            The Judge will never order another test. $$$$

            The Jury will judge the evidence already at hand. End of story…

        • Bruce__H

          Why must a judge order a new independent test? I’m not a lawyer so I don’t know. I’m not even sure a judge would have the authority to order such a test. Do you know?

          • Jerry Soloman

            Bruce the judge may very well order a third party test someone that is not in Darden’s pocket, make sense ?

          • Bruce__H

            Do you have legal experience? I’m trying to figure out why and on what authority a judge would do that.

          • Alex Fenrick

            I think in fairness it would be Darden’s pocket or Rossi’s pocket.

        • LarryJ

          Don’t forget that this will be a trial by jury. It is hard to say what the judge might do but one thing he won’t do is deliver a verdict.

          Also keep in mind that this trial is probably a year or more from going to court and there might well be products in the market by then.

          • clovis ray

            Larry, that’s the way i see it as well, look, everything was rolling along just fine untill I/H got greedy,and tried to steal his I/P, and when confronted they cried foul, that the original I/P was not complete and refused to pay the 89 mill, so rossi filed the breach, the I/P and everything et.al, reverts back to rossi, it would seem to me, Dr.R can continue on with his production, but industrial heat, will have to cease and decease, producing his machine. , so this whole thing is just a minor setback, I/H crapped in their own nest, and Dr.R will go on with his plan as planned and I/H will loose their grip on the goose.

      • Michael W Wolf

        No way, if Rossi is a fraud, he will go to jail. IH can’t go to jail. Rossi believes what he is suing for and in his mind is no fraud or he would already be long gone.

        • Bruce__H

          Why would Rossi go to jail if he loses this lawsuit?

        • Alex Fenrick

          Michael…this is not a criminal case…how and why would he go to jail? That doesn’t make sense.

      • Jerry Soloman

        Maybe Tom Darden will go to jail if it is found out there was an organized effort to defraud Rossi out of his IP.

    • Alex Fenrick

      Without knowing the facts yet….it really makes no sense that the lawsuit that will expose the facts would be your actual fact to know what is going on. That just makes no sense to me.

      • lkelemen

        so you say the trial will hide all the facts? why? and whose interest is to hide the facts? certainly not Rossi’s as he started the lawsuit

        • Alex Fenrick

          No…you misunderstood. I am saying it makes no sense to use Rossi suing IH as your “fact” when we don’t even have any facts yet…since the case has not gone to court yet to expose said facts to allow you to use it as a “fact”.

  • adriano

    Who is Fulvio Fabiano? Is he the “I have saw unbelivable things” guy? And why his credibility is trashed also thanks to this website? Can someone answer please?

    • Frank Acland

      Yes, he is the engineer who worked under contract with Industrial Heat on the 1MW plant. I haven’t seen anything that would undermine his credibility.

      • sam

        Was he not Rossi man since 2012.
        If so why was he under contract with I.H.

  • adriano

    Who is Fulvio Fabiano? Is he the “I have saw unbelivable things” guy? And why his credibility is trashed also thanks to this website? Can someone answer please?

    • Frank Acland

      Yes, he is the engineer who worked under contract with Industrial Heat on the 1MW plant. I haven’t seen anything that would undermine his credibility.

      • adriano

        “Is the value and certainty of Fabiano Fulvio’s testimony trashed? For
        me, thanks to this E-Cat bickering, certainly. Hopefully this is only
        temporary, but for now I cannot believe what he had to say.”

        If my basic english doesnt deceive me this quote should means that for the guy who wrote this post Fabiano is a non-beliveble commenter? Anyway thanks for the reply

        • Bob

          I do not speak for Mr. Bird, but I think his reasoning is that Mr. Fulvio was an employee of Leonardo Corp. / Rossi before he was employed by IH. At least that is my understanding. I have not looked up the links as I do not have time at the moment (and I like to support my theory with evidence if possible) that had photos showing Mr. Fulvio at Rossi’s Italian work shop and that he was identified by name at the time.
          .
          While I would state that just because someone had previous employment by Rossi does not invalidate his credentials, it does cause suspicion for some.
          Sam below stated that “Rossi has to like someone to work with them”. Some of Rossi’s critics state that this is all too obvious. That Rossi has never had a truly independent test ever… Lugano nor the 1 year. Included is Penon who has past associations with Rossi.. This fact does not invalidate them, but after so much calling for an independent testing agency, why would one keep selecting past associations? Why would IH agree to this as well? It causes questions for many.
          .
          Rossi appears paranoid to a great degree. Possibly rightly so, who knows? He would not let the Lugano test team load or unload the reactor. Why? Pro-Rossi fans state he did not want someone stealing his secret sauce and analyzing it. Anti-Rossi critics state he switched the samples out. I do not know. Fulvio even posted once that Rossi would not even let him handle loading the reactors. I appears that while IH people might have made the reactor tubes, Fulvio seems to state no one else has ever made the “secret sauce”. Which is probably a core topic of the Rossi / IH lawsuit and why IH states they cannot substantiate the eCat.
          .
          This is why people keep asking for a completely independent test, such as with MFMP and unrelated people. Rossi has refused to do so,.
          Some say for good reason. They must assume that every single testing agency is controlled by the “Powers that Be” and will turn evil and steal the eCat as soon as they touch it?

          • Michael W Wolf

            There are no independent validators. You have those who believe in LENR and as such will be accused of being in on the scam. And those who say LENR is impossible. You call that independent? I call it conflict of interest. All these accusations directed towards people testing LENR is not legitimate. They demand proof of commercial LENR, yet don’t need proof to call people frauds and liars. LENR deniers have no business testing LENR, let alone anywhere near an LENR reactor, they had their chance and showed us all their true colors. Only believers in LENR should test LENR, and they will never be safe from slander. Why we even bother to worry about independent validators is beyond me and is like letting the fox to guard the hen house.

          • Alex Fenrick

            I think if we go on your premise that only believers in LENR should test LENR, you really set yourself up for not only slander…but biased failure. Like I have mentioned, I think a small panel of known respected individuals that do not have known first hand connections would satisfy even the skeptics. Even if any indirect connections are dug up by skeptics…I know this method would still be enough for me. I absolutely do get your perspective Michael, I just think this court case will draw out for years…and Rossi will find it harder over time to gain support unless he can bring product to market on his own (which he may very well have the means).

          • LarryJ

            Nothing will satisfy skeptics except products in the market.

          • Alex Fenrick

            Not true LarryJ….you have one right here…and I am quite sure there are many others especially in a situation I just described. Embrace the challenge of logical skeptics and ignore the trolls…it’s all part of the fringe game.

          • LarryJ

            There will always be a large group of skeptics who are more credible than Rossi. This large group of credible skeptics will scare off the press so that there will never be widespread mainstream coverage of the test or report in question.

          • Alex Fenrick

            I find your perspective odd in that it supports my side of the isle. If you have a large group that is admittedly more credible that Rossi, why would the media not be interested in the perspective they present. It baffles me that Rossi is always given benefit of the doubt, while others that you would even call more credible than Rossi are blindly labeled as skeptics rather than logical observers. There is just as much skepticism and conspiracy theory being generated from the Rossi side of this issue as the skeptic side at this point. The skeptic bashing is getting a bit old….

          • LarryJ

            By large group of skeptics more credible than Rossi I am referring to skeptics more credible to the press than Rossi. The mainstream hot fusion physicists for instance who may not be right about cold fusion and who may be concerned about the billions in funding hot fusion research would lose and without whose endorsement the press will certainly not publish positive news about cold fusion.

          • Omega Z

            Alex,

            Rossi had no prior contacts with the Lugano team prior to the creation of the E-cat. He came to know them all due to independent tests.

            In essence, no one who tests the E-cat are any longer independent in the eyes of skeptics.

            Note also that 1 of Rossi’s antagonist’s was asked to participate in the Lugano test and refused. What was he afraid of.

          • Alex Fenrick

            I personally do not put much trust in the Lugano report…like MANY….there is a laundry list of problems with that report…definitely not a good example. As I have mentioned before, scientists and researchers outside of the E-Cat world should be used, NOT those inside the field as it only offers the bias we have been talking about. Again….a small panel of outside scientists and researchers with no known direct connection to Rossi (and there are many thousands of such) to do a short run test. Even if an indirect connection is dredged up by skeptics…the fact of a panel would trump that. It really is so very simple….and continues to fuel skepticism without independent validation….the years continue to roll on….

          • adriano

            Ok thanks for the reply

          • Omega Z

            ->”That Rossi has never had a truly independent test ever”

            This is not True.

            Rossi came to know all those in the Lugano test as well as Penon due to independent tests of the E-cat. They were not friends or even acquaintances prior to the advent of the E-cat.

            There are (2) primary issues that detractors have with Rossi.

            1) Rossi’s theory does not agree with the primary theory TPTB support which is the Widom-Larsen theory.

            2) Rossi is not a leading research professor for Cal-tech, MIT or some other prestigious University.
            If LENR is real, it should come from the institutes of higher education with Billion$ of taxpayer dollars.. Not some nobody working fringe science in a garage on a shoestring budget. It is very unsettling for them. The general populace may come to see them as a bunch of bumbling fools.

            Note: One of Rossi’s major antagonists was invited to take part in the Lugano test, but refused. Incidentally, he still bad mouths Rossi of which I believe he forfeited the right of.

      • bachcole

        Thank you, Frank. That means a lot to me.

      • sam

        Was he not Rossi man since 2012.
        If so why was he under contract with I.H.

  • georgehants

    It would be far more useful if instead of us being in the position of speculating on personal beliefs, to have Mr. Rossi actually do something to PROVE the reality of commercial Cold Fusion.
    Five years and counting and some people are still going along as if this whole situation does not reflect the insanity of our society’s.

    • LarryJ

      Your suggestion can only be accomplished by products in the market. Over the past 5 years we have had several convincing demos, tests and reports and they all failed to create so much as a ripple in public perception. You are suggesting that Rossi abandon his focus on bringing products to market and instead focus on convincing the world by performing more so called irrefutable useless demos, tests and reports.

      Your suggestion is very counter productive.

      • georgehants

        ll

        • LarryJ

          Your suggestion is counter productive because you think setting up an irrefutable demo is an easy task. It is not easy, in fact Rossi knows that it’s impossible. Generally speaking impossible tasks can be very time consuming. Rossi has no time to waste on pointless demos and irrefutable proofs that are meaningless in terms of reaching his goal. His competitors are now snapping at his heels and he needs to move as quickly as possible and with as great a focus as he can possibly muster. Once he has product in the market you will have your irrefutable demo and Rossi will have his place in history.

          “No previous test has been freely open for all to observe and measure independently.”

          This comment of yours illustrates perfectly why no test can ever be designed that would satisfy your criteria. No matter how he might design a test this comment is exactly how you and many others would evaluate it. No matter what he does it would become just one more seriously flawed test among many, in your view. The only flawless test is the one you can plug into your living room wall and test for yourself and fortunately for all of us, Rossi knows this.

  • georgehants

    It would be far more useful if instead of us being in the position of speculating on personal beliefs, to have Mr. Rossi actually do something to PROVE the reality of commercial Cold Fusion.
    Five years and counting and some people are still going along as if this whole situation does not reflect the insanity of our society’s.

    • LarryJ

      Your suggestion can only be accomplished by products in the market. Over the past 5 years we have had several convincing demos, tests and reports and they all failed to create so much as a ripple in public perception. You are suggesting that Rossi abandon his focus on bringing products to market and instead focus on convincing the world by performing more so called irrefutable useless demos, tests and reports.

      Your suggestion is very counter productive.

      • georgehants

        It is a shame I have to continually answer some people with obvious Facts.
        No previous test has been freely open for all to observe and measure independently.
        You say —- “You are suggesting that Rossi abandon his focus on bringing products to market” I am not, could it not occur to you that he can easily do both, one does not interfere with the other.
        Please explain, you say “Your suggestion is very counter productive.” of Rossi allowing others to verify his Cold Fusion.

        • LarryJ

          Your suggestion is counter productive because you think setting up an irrefutable demo is an easy task. It is not easy, in fact Rossi knows that it’s impossible. Generally speaking impossible tasks can be very time consuming. Rossi has no time to waste on pointless demos and irrefutable proofs that are meaningless in terms of reaching his goal. His competitors are now snapping at his heels and he needs to move as quickly as possible and with as great a focus as he can possibly muster. Once he has product in the market you will have your irrefutable demo and Rossi will have his place in history.

          “No previous test has been freely open for all to observe and measure independently.”

          This comment of yours illustrates perfectly why no test can ever be designed that would satisfy your criteria. No matter how he might design a test this comment is exactly how you and many others would evaluate it. No matter what he does it would become just one more seriously flawed test among many, in your view. The only flawless test is the one you can plug into your living room wall and test for yourself and fortunately for all of us, Rossi knows this.

    • bachcole

      If one observes the world as being insane, perhaps it is one’s own mind that is disturbed. The world is what it is. Refraining from being disturbed by it is the only road to personal sanity and happiness.

  • Do people pay an additional 10 million dollars after they already paid 1.5 million dollars to see if something actually works and then say it doesn’t work? Certainly not.
    Do people fight over things that don’t work? Certainly not. Are people greedy? Certainly
    If the Ecat works as Rossi says it does do you think it will be easy for him to bring it to the market? Certainly not. If the Ecat works as advertised will Rossi have enemies working to stop him? Certainly. If Rossi’s Ecat works as advertised who would be his biggest enemy? Other Energy Interest (Entire Countries), most certainly.
    Does Industrial Heat have a conflict of interest when it comes to promoting the Ecat? Most Certainly.

    Is Saudi Arabia scrambling to “get off of oil” Certainly.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2016-04-21/the-2-trillion-project-to-get-saudi-arabia-s-economy-off-oil

    Is Rossi the only company racing to get out a LENR based product? Certainly Not.

    • We assume the latter must be the case, but actual evidence for the assumption is depressingly thin on the ground. That the trouble with secrecy I suppose – it’s impossible for watchers to know what’s going on.

    • Rossi Fan

      Not so fast with the $10 big ones. Nowhere in the discussion has anybody questioned Pinon’s financial state. It is awfully suspicious that the same guy who they used to verify the initial $10 was hired to evaluate the balance $90. The fact that there is only one person ERV completely taints the process and renders it questionable. Nowhere in the discussion has anybody bothered to ask Rossi whether or not IH was pressured to use Pinon after a “take it or leave it” ultimatum?

      The $10 is proof of genius. If it is a scam then Rossi is great. If it is not a scam then Rossi is great. Either way at this point the man has proved himself.

      • Tom59

        The electricity bill of the customer together with his production files would be the ultimate proof. Rumor (Mats) indicates they are positive. Let’s see…

      • LarryJ

        Penon was the agreed referee. Both parties signed off on his selection for that role and I would imagine that IH were aware of who he was. The report was never designed to validate the tech to the public so saying that the selection of a single referee tainted the process is meaningless. The ERV was selected to support the fulfilling of a contractual obligation between two parties. It is difficult to imagine Rossi pressuring IH to use a referee they did not support when so much depended on him.

      • cashmemorz

        Yes he is. Except for one ethical or moral view. One view shows AR as a great saint the other view as a great demon. My overall view of AR history tends toward the saintly side.

  • Do people pay an additional 10 million dollars after they already paid 1.5 million dollars to see if something actually works and then say it doesn’t work? Certainly not.
    Do people fight over things that don’t work? Certainly not. Are people greedy? Certainly
    If the Ecat works as Rossi says it does do you think it will be easy for him to bring it to the market? Certainly not. If the Ecat works as advertised will Rossi have enemies working to stop him? Certainly. If Rossi’s Ecat works as advertised who would be his biggest enemy? Other Energy Interest (Entire Countries), most certainly.
    Does Industrial Heat have a conflict of interest when it comes to promoting the Ecat? Most Certainly.

    Is Saudi Arabia scrambling to “get off of oil” Certainly.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2016-04-21/the-2-trillion-project-to-get-saudi-arabia-s-economy-off-oil

    Is Rossi the only company racing to get out a LENR based product? Certainly Not.

    • We assume the latter must be the case, but actual evidence for the assumption is depressingly thin on the ground. That the trouble with secrecy I suppose – it’s impossible for watchers to know what’s going on.

    • Rossi Fan

      Not so fast with the $10 big ones. Nowhere in the discussion has anybody questioned Pinon’s financial state. It is awfully suspicious that the same guy who they used to verify the initial $10 was hired to evaluate the balance $90. The fact that there is only one person ERV completely taints the process and renders it questionable. Nowhere in the discussion has anybody bothered to ask Rossi whether or not IH was pressured to use Pinon after a “take it or leave it” ultimatum?

      The $10 is proof of genius. If it is a scam then Rossi is great. If it is not a scam then Rossi is great. Either way at this point the man has proved himself.

      • Tom59

        The electricity bill of the customer together with his production files would be the ultimate proof. Rumor (Mats) indicates they are positive. Let’s see…

      • Bicke Dutte

        Seriously if Rossi and his italian friends are scammers, I’ll paypal them some money. Such mastery in deception deserves recognition.

        • Mats002

          Ha ha! Yes the thrill they deliver is worth a fee!

      • LarryJ

        Penon was the agreed referee. Both parties signed off on his selection for that role and I would imagine that IH were aware of who he was. The report was never designed to validate the tech to the public so saying that the selection of a single referee tainted the process is meaningless. The ERV was selected to support the fulfilling of a contractual obligation between two parties. It is difficult to imagine Rossi pressuring IH to use a referee they did not support when so much depended on him.

      • clovis ray

        yep, many times over, welcome rossi fan, we need more like you to join the revolution and fight the dark side, it fun, and very exciting, and you learn many interesting things, here among our little think tank of sorts., nice bunch of forward thinking folks, that likes to help figure out how this discovery will change the world.
        And help try and figure out how to take it to market as quickly as possible.
        This is our quickest way to get a cat, that works good and maybe we could help beta test it for him, once the test is over we get our cat, for the trouble, smile, and just think of all the things that you can do with an inexhaustible energy source. now that is where we should have our minds, so many applications, so few to design , produce, and market , those new ideas, this device can put the world to work if introduced correctly, and Leonardo corp, is on the job.

      • cashmemorz

        Yes he is. Except for one ethical or moral view. One view shows AR as a great saint the other view as a great demon. My overall view of AR history tends toward the saintly side.

        • bachcole

          AR is hardly a saint. He is a driven, inspired, and focused engineer, perhaps even a genius. Saints don’t drive people away with their impatience and irritability. Even someone who is unjustifiably imprisoned for 29 years and forgives his enemies is not a saint, although about as close as we are going to see in the popular news medias.

    • bachcole

      Nice, LN. You already have 12 up-clicks, and counting.

      • bachcole

        Liberty Newspost, you now have 15 up-clicks. That could be a record. That is the most that I can remember anywhere.

  • john M

    What I know for a certainty is, after many years of LENR spectating, I’m planning on purchasing more solar panels for my roof.

    • Rossi Fan

      As far as rooftop goes: solar panels can be stolen and lithium ion energy storage is not up to the job.

      Solar makes sense on huge solar ranches and vanadium storage and 24/7 security. Do the math and roughly 600 (25×25) square miles would have to be covered with panels to get this kind of system to work for the entire United States.

      This new Crescent Dunes solves the problem of energy storage but requires mirrors for a 4 mile radius. Do the math and roughly 1/4 the entire state of California would have to be covered with mirrors to get this kind of system to work for the entire United States. That’s ridiculous!

      • Rossi Fan

        Correction. A Crescent Dunes type of setup would require roughly 2000 square miles of space to power the entire United States. Or roughly 50×50 square miles.

      • Alex Fenrick

        With the massive interest in solar power in 2016…I have a feeling we will start seeing some serious work done in the realm of efficiency. While I agree with your numbers….do not count solar out of the picture quite yet. The probability of dramatic game-changing efficiency in solar panels is no less conceivable than the commercial viability of LENR…in fact in my opinion leagues higher. I still have one of my first solar cells I got as a kid from Radio Shack….it barely pushes the meter in bright sun lol…

        • I actually believe the solarpower “lobby” to be among the worst enemies of LENR. Found this link yesterday:
          http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/articles/pt/2016/04/san-francisco-passes-law-requiring-solar-panels-on-new-buildings.html
          A lot of politicians, reputations, subsidies and tax payers money involved. @ApcoWorldwide certainly has a stake here… Keep your eyes open on this I say.

          • Alex Fenrick

            While I don’t completely disagree with you there….I will say there are many legitimate honest individuals, organizations and companies working on solar advancement. I don’t really think it is fair to paint the solarpower field with such with such a broad brush…

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    Beware; we are entering a dangerous time for LENR. I saw and predicted this fight between Dr. Rossi and IH; on this site. Dr. Rossi, in a way, predicted what is happening right now; if you have been following his site JONP, he has been vigilant to not let Crony Capitalists (my words, Wikipedia definition) take control of his E-Cat IP. I am afraid it is happening right before our eyes, IH has hired the brightest and the best propagandists and legal minds to bend public opinion and our laws to take control of LENR. A landslide of misinformation and legal maneuvering is about to hit Dr. Rossi, his IP and E-Cat.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    Beware; we are entering a dangerous time for LENR. I saw and predicted this fight between Dr. Rossi and IH; on this site. Dr. Rossi, in a way, predicted what is happening right now; if you have been following his site JONP, he has been vigilant to not let Crony Capitalists (my words, Wikipedia definition) take control of his E-Cat IP. I am afraid it is happening right before our eyes, IH has hired the brightest and the best propagandists and legal minds to bend public opinion and our laws to take control of LENR. A landslide of misinformation and legal maneuvering, probably very subtle, is about to hit Dr. Rossi, his IP and E-Cat.

  • Ciaranjay

    Here is my take on matters, and I admit I am a sceptic.

    Stage 1 is there a genuine phenomenon that underpins all the noise and babble?
    I agree with Roger that it seems clear there is some kind of genuine phenomenon.

    Stage 2 can it be commercialized?
    Worst case; we have a strange but trivial effect that will never be of great commercial
    use.
    Best case; it delivers abundant, cheap and green energy, as we all hope.

    At this stage we get to Rossi, who some say is a fraud and others say is a genius. It is impossible to draw a firm conclusion. Hopefully the next few months will clarify things, if necessary in court.

    However very few inventions have one guy who takes it to market. Often the inventor struggles for years, then other people perfect it and get the rewards.

    In any case technology such as this will be improved further over the years by research groups. This was the case for solar power, terahertz tech etc.

    Stage 3. At some point a theoretical explanation to underpin the technology will be needed. Once we have that it will guide future development. We currently don’t have this either.

    So the only thing I am confident about is stage 1.

  • Grégory

    I doubt about judging anything (Rossi’s mood, IH honesty, etc.) on the basis of what we know, which is little.

    Only replication proves a technology/discovery.

    In the case of LENR, there are just plenty, documented in scientific publications. It’s a no brainer to me.

    In the case of e-cat, it’s not reasonable to pretend that things have stalled. There has been plenty of replications, more or less close to what Rossi is doing. AFAIK only the russian one has resulted in publication – one that has a modest IF. Is it enough ? No, but it’s hard to pretend it’s nothing either. If you look at other scams, or possible scams, you have a hard time to find anything that has gone even half that far (*cough* Orbo *cough*).

    And it’s more than we could hope anyway on the replication/publishing front. OTOH the angle Rossi has chosen to “prove” e-Cat is “the market”. Here so far, it’s plausible but clearly frustrating. First we we’re expecting domestic e-cat. Then we had industrial e-cat with first customer delivered accross the ocean (the navy ?). Second customer somewhere in Florida, but shht, it’s another secret. And now what ? Well back to square one. Domestic e-cat, soon!

    About Darden, the basic of his work is to buy things that has value. I just don’t buy that he signed a deal in millions with Rossi without a solid check of the technology. That not how you become someone in his position in the first place.

    IMO the ecat is real – and I have to remind people, like previous Rossi’s invention. His technology to process trash into oil may have had its flaws but what’s sure is that the principle has been proven and industrialized since. At the very least he has been pioneering a real field of innovation.
    Also what he did as consultant did work, but once it had to be replicated by contractor, only a few replications worked. Still *some* did.

    The pattern here is that we have a relatively succesful inventor who also wants to be an industry man and so far, doesn’t succeed at it. If things follow their usual course, he’ll fail again while some others a likely to get the market instead of him.

    • psi2u2

      A very fair and judicious summary of the situation.

    • Mats002

      My personal investment in Woodford might be profitable then. But not the way I thought.

  • HS61AF91

    Maybe Edgar Cayce’es current reincarnation would help. That appears to be none other than David Wilcock, but suspect it may be out of his areas of expertise. His admonishment about co-operation is really pertinent, for sure.

  • HS61AF91

    Think about you own feelings, you own intuition, therein reside the grains of certainty, that becomes real!

  • Michael W Wolf

    There are no independent validators. You have those who believe in LENR and as such will be accused of being in on the scam. And those who say LENR is impossible. You call that independent? I call it conflict of interest. All these accusations directed towards people testing LENR is not legitimate. They demand proof of commercial LENR, yet don’t need proof to call people frauds and liars. LENR deniers have no business testing LENR, let alone anywhere near an LENR reactor, they had their chance and showed us all their true colors. Only believers in LENR should test LENR, and they will never be safe from slander. Why we even bother to worry about independent validators is beyond me and is like letting the fox to guard the hen house.

    • Alex Fenrick

      I think if we go on your premise that only believers in LENR should test LENR, you really set yourself up for not only slander…but biased failure. Like I have mentioned, I think a small panel of known respected individuals that do not have known first hand connections would satisfy even the skeptics. Even if any indirect connections are dug up by skeptics…I know this method would still be enough for me. I absolutely do get your perspective Michael, I just think this court case will draw out for years…and Rossi will find it harder over time to gain support unless he can bring product to market on his own (which he may very well have the means).

      • LarryJ

        Nothing will satisfy skeptics except products in the market.

        • Alex Fenrick

          Not true LarryJ….you have one right here…and I am quite sure there are many others especially in a situation I just described. Embrace the challenge of logical skeptics and ignore the trolls…it’s all part of the fringe game.

          • LarryJ

            There will always be a large group of skeptics who are more credible than Rossi. This large group of credible skeptics will scare off the press so that there will never be widespread mainstream coverage of the test or report in question.

      • Omega Z

        Alex,

        Rossi had no prior contacts with the Lugano team prior to the creation of the E-cat. He came to know them all due to independent tests.

        In essence, no one who tests the E-cat are any longer independent in the eyes of skeptics.

        Note also that 1 of Rossi’s antagonist’s was asked to participate in the Lugano test and refused. What was he afraid of.

  • Michael W Wolf

    No way, if Rossi is a fraud, he will go to jail. IH can’t go to jail. Rossi believes what he is suing for and in his mind is no fraud or he would already be long gone.

    • Bruce__H

      Why would Rossi go to jail if he loses this lawsuit?

    • Alex Fenrick

      Michael…this is not a criminal case…how and why would he go to jail? That doesn’t make sense.

  • Michael W Wolf

    Exactly right.

  • HS61AF91

    My best certainty is that those robot factories will be rolling out e-Cats of various varieties. I’m certain if IH pays what’s due they’ll have e-Cat products too.

    • LarryJ

      I think you are right about IH having ecat products soon but I don’t think they will pay whats due for a very long time. One is not dependent on the other.

      • HS61AF91

        I believe if IH does’nt pay they’ll be rolling out older e-Cats, otherwise one is not dependent on the other. Good point.

  • Bob

    This is a good question, and I am not sure what the protocol would be!
    You state that the judge would order a new independent test.
    .
    Who would pick the independent testers? The judge? He/she would have no technical knowledge about such things. Would MIT get appointed somehow? They are completely biased and would immediately be rejected by Rossi. I doubt that Rossi would ever accept an accredited testing agency as he has not done so in the past.
    .
    Who would build the reactor? Rossi? If so, would all the details be given and revealed? I believe this is part of the lawsuit.. IH may be claiming Rossi never gave them “the goods” so to speak.
    .
    AND who would pay for it? This would be expensive. In the tens of thousands of dollars. Is IH innocent until proven guilty? Do they have to pay to protect their reputation? Since Rossi brought the suit, would it be on him to prove it works and thus pay for it?
    (For 89 million, it would be a good return!). However, it is not trivial.
    .
    I am not sure that a judge would or could require an independent test. I am more inclined to think they would subpoena “experts” to testify whether the 1 year test was valid or not, depending on the data, how the data was collected and upon accepted theory. This of course would go against Rossi as most experts would give testimony that Cold Fusion is impossible. It would be very interesting to sit in the court room for sure!
    .
    ….So this got me to thinking on a somewhat unrelated topic…..
    .
    I wonder if I called Fox TV and offered a mini-series on the upcoming trial, I could sell them on it. Let’s see…. man once jailed in Italy for crimes, then exonerated….and now again being accused of fraud. … hmmm ….sounds a lot like the show “Making a murderer!” Elderly lone individual against “The Powers that Be”…. hmmm… sounds kind of like another recent movie as well. We have lies and subterfuge…. we have big dollars at stake… we have a touch of science fiction …. we have the Climate Change angle…. we have the Mid East oil Sultans… we have ruthless capitalists…. we have the down trodden, misunderstood, saintly man who is being warred against by the hurricane blogosphere! All the script I can take right from the posts on this site! Man, I see a #1, Oscar contending hit! Sign me up!….
    .
    🙂

    • Omega Z

      The Judge will never order another test. $$$$

      The Jury will judge the evidence already at hand. End of story…

  • Bruce__H

    Do you have legal experience? I’m trying to figure out why and on what authority a judge would do that.

  • Jerry Soloman

    Maybe Tom Darden will go to jail if it is found out there was an organized effort to defraud Rossi out of his IP.

  • Alex Fenrick

    I think in fairness it would be Darden’s pocket or Rossi’s pocket.

  • Brokeeper

    Thanks Roger. If IH somehow wins the judicial case they and all those associated with them eventually will loose public opinion and gain disgrace. Too much has been historically documented, thanks to the likes of Mats Lewans, USPTO, Lugano Report, replications, Frank Acland, and many others I should never forget, as to how and by whom the working LENR was born. No entity should ever steal an inventor’s well earned IP especially from one who will be responsible for the betterment of all societies. If what we assume to be true, I don’t know what IH/Darden is thinking to assume they will be blessed by such financial and heroic narcissism and “tricksies”.

    • LarryJ

      Don’t forget that this will be a trial by jury. It is hard to say what the judge might do but one thing he won’t do is deliver a verdict.

  • Brokeeper

    Thanks Roger. If IH somehow wins the judicial case they and all those associated with them eventually will loose public opinion and gain disgrace. Too much has been historically documented, thanks to the likes of Mats Lewans, USPTO, Lugano Report, replications, Frank Acland, Sifferkoll, and many others I should never forget, as to how and by whom the working LENR was born. No entity should ever steal an inventor’s well earned IP especially from one who will be responsible for the betterment of all societies. If what we assume to be true, I don’t know what IH/Darden is thinking to assume they will be blessed by such financial and heroic narcissism and “tricksies”.

    • roseland67

      Bro keeper,
      Virtually no one outside of this board and a select few in the investment community have even heard of IH, Darden et al. So there will be no loss of public opinion, (whatever that is), and the only disgrace that may occur is that some of their investors may wonder how Rossi conned a bunch of smart guys like IH out of $10 million.
      Best case is this does go to trial and all of Rossi’s “customers” are subpoenaed, all of Rossi’s NDA’s are disclosed, and his recipe and methodology, if they even exist, are revealed and tested.

      • Brokeeper

        Once, not now, the E-Cat or other LENR device reaches the market you can be assured interest in all its evolution will peak and collaborated by many sectors of society.

  • Steve Swatman

    One has to wonder how Brillouin and the others in IH’s stable of Lenr potential are feeling right now, surely they are aware of the situation with Rossi, surely they are looking at their contracts and their patents, surely they are choosing sides “quietly”.

  • Zephir

    The scientists could decide the cold fusion controversy easily: they already have well equipped research bases and large teams, payed from mandatory fees of tax payers. But they won’t do it – the cold fusion is still taboo for peer-reviewed research and mainstream journals. What’s worse, there is zero public pressure for change of this situation: people prefer to fund TV and music shows. Whereas once they suddenly face war for shrinking energy resources, everyone gets surprised and scared with it.

  • Felix Meyer

    About the Roger’s question: LENR is real ?
    When we see the Lugana report, in Appendix 3 in Table 1:
    There we see, that a total change of the Nickel Isotope occurring abundances.
    Measured in test Fuel:
    58NI = 67 %
    62Ni = 1.9 %
    Measured in Ash:
    58Ni = 0.8 %
    62Ni = 98.7 %
    We note, that this is REAL LENR. Here we see a nuclear fusion.

  • bachcole

    OK, I admit that my use of the word “trashed” to describe Fulvio Fabiani’s testimony was WAY too strong. Perhaps “tarnished” or “tainted” would have been better.

  • It might be interesting to know that somebody seriously started trying to hack my site after the April 14th post on the reasons for Rossi not to release the ERV report. I believe provoking Rossi to release it and then get all the trolls to move everybodys focus to tiny details in the report instead of discussing the big picture as now, was in their master plan.

    They (Apco/IH spinners) are probably not happy about this turn of events …

    http://www.sifferkoll.se/sifferkoll/somebody-is-watching-and-acting-serious-hacking-attempts-on-sifferkoll-after-lenr-erv-analysis/

    • Andreas Moraitis

      It would be easy to leak the report anonymously. Provoking the other side to publish it would not be necessary, I think.

      • No, that would be to obvious – ie. the same as publishing it. Especially since it probably says COP~50 and IH do not want to acknowledge that at all, maybe not even having the report. They probably have leaked it in parts to prepare their folks on some arguments to come.

        • Andreas Moraitis

          “No, that would be to obvious – ie. the same as publishing it.”

          Not exactly the same since nobody could determine on which side the leak occurred.

          • I believe it would pretty easy to make an informed guess depending on how the details materialize

    • People like Apco can only function in the dark, so anyone pointing a flashlight at them is inevitably going to become a target. If they have the resources (I’m sure they do) they may attempt a ‘denial of service’ attack next – I hope you’ve got lots of bandwidth!

      • Of course they have DDOS in the toolbox. It’s part of the trade.

        I use a swedish webhosting company with pretty good bandwidth, but everything is limited on the server level I guess. It would be interesting to watch thoug. I’ve worked in this business for many years and even spent a whole christmas weekend once (10+y ago) trying to fend off a major DDOS towards one of my customers. So I know a little about it …

      • Brokeeper

        Said long ago: “In the dark, thieves break into houses, but by day they shut themselves in; they want nothing to do with the light.”

      • This time though, I believe Apco is not directly involved. The attack is too obvious and unsofisticated.

    • Thomas Kaminski

      I have seen more than 25,000 login attempts via SSH per day on a digital ocean server. Also, if you move the SSH port, it dramatically reduces the login attempts, but eventually the number increases. I suspect that there are groups that share hacking information. It is possible that your site was listed on some sort of “hack me” site. However, I do like your hypothesis, being enamored of conspiracy theories.

      • Yes I know. I use fail2ban to get rid of them on my own servers … This is different though since it is so directly focused on my blog and the timing with this special post is perfect. And there are some other coincidenses that I discovered only an hour ago. The first main attack came thru the same mid sized web hosting company used by Dewey Weaver of Deep River Ventures. The guy that Mats Lewan has heard were trolling a lot of peple in the LENR business and a good friend of Darden … What are the probabilities of that? http://www.sifferkoll.se/sifferkoll/a-coincidence-the-namecheap-hosting-dewey-weaver-hacker-connection/

        • Thomas Kaminski

          That is more than just a coincidence….

        • psi2u2

          Hmmmm…..I hope you keep good records.

    • Zapece

      I usually just do a whois on ripe for the dynamic ip address I am assigned by my isp to give me the entire possible isp range and then adjust ip tables on my servers to only allow ssh access from that range, works pretty well. that cuts out 99% of the internet.

    • bachcole

      Have you seen this master plan? Could you post a link for us?

      • Well, unfortunately they did not publish it … Only trying to make as much sense as possible out of the information available. The “believe” word sort of covers it I hope 🙂

        • bachcole

          Sometimes datapoints don’t make sense and it is best to not invent entities to explain them. (:->)

    • gdaigle

      I think that a lot of WordPress sites have been under attack lately, regardless of their content focus. I added a second password layer to mine (no content closely related to LENR) and it seems to have curtailed the hacking attempts. However, the relationship of your hackers to Mr. Weaver is unsettling.

      • As I said. I have several WP sites and they are constantly under som level of attack. The issue is the timing and the brute force characteristics. It is very unsofisticated… I’ve sent a mail to the Namecheap abuse departement. We’ll see.

  • Евгений Максимов

    In LENR studies historically the distribution areas of experimental research in various countries around the world.

    Experimenters the United States and Western Europe and Japan pay more attention to Cold Fusion. Reactions of deuterium and hydrogen over catalysts nickel / palladium.

    The Russian and Indian scientists greater focus on the study of transmutation of chemical elements. In the field of “transmutation” Russian scientists have made great progress. In a study of excess heat we have achieved great success American and European scientists.

  • Brokeeper

    Once, not now, the E-Cat or other LENR device reaches the market you can be assured interest in all its evolution will peak and collaborated by many sectors of society.

  • Well, unfortunately they did not publish it … Only trying tp make as much sense as possible out of the information available .

  • Mats002

    Hi Roger. I know for certain that McKubre, Widom, Vigolante and many of the PdD old timers exists and are credible knowledgable people, I have seen them IRL at University of Rome, Frescati. I know MFMP is for real, Bob Greenyeer is more than text in my smartphone. I believe you are a real, honest and trustworthy person Roger. I have seen excess heat (XH) in real time from signals traveling over the internet to my browser. Several times, repetition made sigma go over my believe threshold. I have read about and discussed anomalies for years now, had honest discussions with sceptics MY and TC and Tyy. I know for sure LENR exist.

    Does LENR+ exist? I think so but I lack experiences to witness about it. Too much ‘Rossi says’. But I hope. I hope me356 nailed it and will share the recipe and live runs over the net. That will make me know LENR+ is for real.

    • bachcole

      I hope that you can find links to those confirmations. Not that I need a confirmation. With LENR, there is abundant confirmations. But I want to collect links so that I can have plenty to present to unbelievers.

  • psi2u2

    A very fair and judicious summary of the situation.

  • Mats002

    My personal investment in Woodford might be profitable then. But not the way I thought.

  • LarryJ

    By large group of skeptics more credible than Rossi I am referring to skeptics more credible to the press than Rossi. The mainstream hot fusion physicists for instance who may not be right about cold fusion and who may be concerned about the billions in funding hot fusion research would lose and without whose endorsement the press will certainly not publish positive news about cold fusion.

  • Mats002

    Ha ha! Yes the thrill they deliver is worth a fee!

  • Mats002

    This is the halleluja moment of MFMP after GS5.2 experiment:

    http://www.quantumheat.org/index.php/en/home/mfmp-blog/519-the-cookbook-is-in-the-signal

    That run (GS5.2) was replicated by them last week (GS5.3) and the excess heat was repeated, there were some radiation again but not yet fully analysed. COP 1.1 (roughly).

  • bkrharold

    This is the most unusual periodic in the history of scientific inquiry since the Renaissance and the birth of the age of reason. For 35 years established science has steadfastly refused to examine a new phenomenon LENR, due to the aggressive suppression by special interests. We have entered a new dark age, ruled not by theocratic ideologues, but corporations, where logic and reason take a back seat to profits at any cost.

    • bachcole

      I was with you until you said “corporations”. Yes, corporations are a big part of it. But it also includes individuals who work for governments, corporations, businesses who “decide” to choose their beloved paradigm over the observations of many people, most of whom are reliable witnesses and observers. And these people choose their beloved paradigm often because they fail to self-examine their own motivations, many of which are greed, some of which are an unwillingness to change, fear of losing prestige, etc., etc.

      • bkrharold

        Of course there are many individuals who are either uninformed or have their own selfish reasons, but I blame corporations most of all for the suppression of LENR research and development. They hold the purse strings over most research funds, and have intimidated all but the boldest researchers from entering the field. Their iron grip on the media and its message has served them well to marginalize LENR, and discourage coverage. Of course they control many other aspects of our society not just LENR. My theory on why they hate LENR so much is because it has the potential to be truly democratizing, allowing the little guy to compete with the big corporations, and win. It could also make us all less dependent on those large conglomerates

      • “individuals who work for governments, corporations, businesses who “decide” to choose their beloved paradigm over the observations of many people, most of whom are reliable witnesses and observers. And these people choose their beloved paradigm often because they fail to self-examine their own motivations, many of which are greed, some of which are an unwillingness to change, fear of losing prestige, etc., etc.”
        But corp take just the backseat, and don’t forget corps are just people tied by common resources.

    • I would correct it that way:

      We have entered a new dark age, ruled BY theocratic ideologues, without logic and reason, with corporations, taking a back seat to profits at any cost.

      never forget that it is APS , Ivy league, governments and media who killed LENR and F&P ideas, not oil industry and nuclear industry engineers who experimented and kept the fire alive.

      Problem is ideologies, not money, even if money follow where the public money is, and where the media define the popularity.

  • bkrharold

    Of course there are many individuals who are either uninformed or have their own selfish reasons, but I blame corporations most of all for the suppression of LENR research and development. They hold the purse strings over most research funds, and have intimidated all but the boldest researchers from entering the field. Their iron grip on the media and its message has served them well to marginalize LENR, and discourage coverage. Of course they control many other aspects of our society not just LENR. My theory on why they hate LENR so much is because it has the potential to be truly democratizing, allowing the little guy to compete with the big corporations, and win. It could also make us all less dependent on those large conglomerates

  • “individuals who work for governments, corporations, businesses who “decide” to choose their beloved paradigm over the observations of many people, most of whom are reliable witnesses and observers. And these people choose their beloved paradigm often because they fail to self-examine their own motivations, many of which are greed, some of which are an unwillingness to change, fear of losing prestige, etc., etc.”
    But corp take just the backseat, and don’t forget corps are just people tied by common resources.