Rossi on New Reports from New Plant Tests

As mentioned in another thread, Andrea Rossi does not seem to be upset about the projected time of the IH trial being moved to September of 2017. Leonardo has unilaterally revoked the license with Industrial Heat (I am sure this can be challenged legally), and is acting under the assumption that Leonardo has sole rights to commercialize the E-Cats anywhere in the world — which seems to have given him a sense of freedom in his work.

We are led to understand that Leonardo is working on two main fronts now: 1) The building of low temperature of E-Cat plants that have been ordered by the parent company of JM Chemicals; 2) Working on the development of the QuarkX reactor. I also believe the quest for certification is still underway.

Peter Gluck on this edition of his Ego Out website posted this “mini-interview” Rossi about the current state of his work.

Andrea Rossi: Leonardo Corp has everything it needs to win the Trial, when it wil be..

and: 442 days to wait? No problem at all, since my work proceeds independently from the Trial. Nobody has to wait for anything., the license to IH has been revoked, we are working at full power.

also:  The ERV Report? But you will see the reports from the plants we aredoing soon

Peter: the Quark X is marvelous and opens a new front..

Andrea Rossi: exactly and this is arriving before any verdict should have been set

 

I have given up hope of seeing the ERV report any time soon — not until next year at the earliest, perhaps forever, since the recent documents talked about documents being put under certain privacy protection in the trial. That’s a big shame for us outsiders, for sure — as it would be very interesting. However, Rossi here talks about seeing new reports soon. When he says they are “from the plants we are doing”, I presume he is referring the 1MW plants that Rossi said the parent company of JM Chemicals ordered.

If we see products operating in the market, then the need for reports to help us know if the E-Cat is all it is claimed to be will greatly diminish. I’m hoping that products make it out of hiding.

  • roseland67

    ERV report doesn’t matter, Only replicate
    Energy out > Energy in etc etc etc

    • Pweet

      And so long as Mr Rossi can be in charge of that measurement, I am sure the results will be astounding. A COP of around 50 is quite possible.

    • Omega Z

      ->”There is no reason, none, that any reasonable person can come up with rejecting this approach.”

      au contraire…

      There are many excellent reasons for rejecting this approach. The world is full of thieves and it does not matter the alphabet labels or what prestigious association they have. None of these entities would hesitate to steal Rossi’s technology at the first opportunity. And, In addition, “no one” has given a good reason for Rossi to prove without doubt that his technology is real. No One…

      I can however give Billion$ of excellent reasons for Rossi not to prove his technology before he is ready. Once proven, Big money will be all over this technology. Rossi would end up as road kill. Rossi needs to have this ready for market before conclusively proving it works.

      Notice I did not say Rossi can’t. Only reasons why he shouldn’t.

      • Jarea

        I can think on an scenario.

        If you keep a low profile and being secret then you can be removed of the game and nobody will protest about that. Nobody will now that you were a genius and you had in your hands the freedom of the humanity but you just died as a crazy man in your apartment. A very sad scenario that is highly probable keeping this low profile roadmap.
        The advantages of having a secret plan is that you cannot be copied, yes! but you also cannot be backed up for being the first one on developing the technology. There would be still many competent people who will claim they were first because you couldn’t prove beyond doubt your device worked.

        Besides, your technology can be suppressed and the know-how can be eliminated if it is reduced to a few persons. The progress of a technology is reduced because nobody can help you to understand it and to think out of the box you have created.

        Lastly, there is a moral obligation for the human progress. It is not all about how many more millions will you able to control and earn. It is about being fair rich and ethical with your discovery. We are tired of hearing of black project from the US and technology that is being kept secret for the sake of the leadership.
        All those technologies could bring accelerated returns if they had been widely spread. Those technologies would save million of lives.
        Many advocate against disclosure of these technologies because it is important to keep leadership (greediness) or it safer for the public (weaponize the tech or dangerous radiation from the usage).
        I think that is all bullshit with all respect.
        First, no much comment on greediness. You always can see the other side of the coin and where some see leadership by being hide. Others, see weakness. A technology that is widely used is improved very fast. A secret/surprise technology is only valid for short time leadership.
        second, to weaponize a technology is something that can always be done. But that can be counteracted with new technology and control protocols. It has been always been the case.
        And regarding dangerous radiation we already have the certification for the 1MW plant. So come on.

        • Omega Z

          ->”you also cannot be backed up for being the first one on developing the technology”

          That’s what patents are for. And as for low profile. That was Rossi’s original intent. He only started doing public demo’s due to Focardi urging him to. Focardi was very ill and it was his dream to see in become public before his passing. If not for Focardi, we may not have any knowledge of the E-cat.

          As to credit for the discovery, Who created the Apple computer? Not Steve Jobs. He just sold the idea to the public. Who created Microsoft? Not Bill Gates. Gates merely obtained and incorporated an existing company.

          So You take credit. In 30/40 years, but for very few, no one will have a clue who you are. However, He who built a multibillion dollar industry will be known by everyone.

          “there is a moral obligation for the human progress.”

          I take it you spent years in school studying biology so you could find the cure for cancer. No. Why Not. What happened to your moral obligation to humananity. OK, Maybe you wouldn’t have been the one who found the cure. But, You didn’t even try.

          I find this moral obligation argument very distasteful. It is more of a disincentive not to work towards important accomplishments.

          What people should be doing is giving Rossi credit for being as open as he is. I wonder, Would there even be a MFMP. Would Russia, China, Japan, India and others have started up or restarted LENR research. Would the dozens of individuals be doing there own private research. Many Million$ have been directed towards this technology and nearly all of it is due to Rossi. We should be saying thank you to Rossi. Not, Give us your technology because you owe it to US.

    • Yeah. Sometimes I go full list, sometimes I just have the patience to hit the highlights.

  • roseland67

    ERV report doesn’t matter, Only replicate
    Energy out > Energy in etc etc etc

    • lkelemen

      if somebody replicates you’ll get another “ERV” report (unless you did the replication and know the result).

      • roseland67

        Ike,
        I would bet the beach house that if CERN,
        Argonne, Fermi, MIT, Berkeley etc did the replication their ERV’s (multiple), would be believed and Rossi would get the Nobel for Physics

    • Pweet

      And so long as Mr Rossi can be in charge of that measurement, I am sure the results will be astounding. A COP of around 50 is quite possible.

      • roseland67

        Replicate,
        Meaning others, following, identical build instructions, Bill of Materials, methods and sequence of operations

  • clovis ray

    Hi,
    You know as wonderful a thing as this e-cat can be, what is even more exciting is the new door that has been opened into a world of wonder,where many things will emerge ,

  • Ophelia Rump

    It would be nice if the parent company of JM chemical would speak up and verify the wonderful thing which they are enjoying.

    Is this the same JM Chemical?

    http://www.companies-florida.com/jm-chemical-inc-177xy/

    Business Summary for JM CHEMICAL, INC.
    JM CHEMICAL, INC. is an Domestic for Profit business incorporated in Florida, USA on June 1, 1989. Their business is recorded as Inactive. It is not part of a group. The company was incorporated 27 years ago.

    • Rene

      A tangled WEB of intrigue 🙂

    • Pweet

      Re the above;-
      “Attorney Henry W. Johnson is the President, Treasurer, Secretary, Director,Of JM Products

      Henry is also the President of Leonardo Corporation, formerly secretary.

      That seems like an odd relationship for the “Customer” who was only buying the heat from the device being tested.”
      No more ‘odd’ than the amazing coincidence that the ERV who was allegedly ‘chosen’ by IH to do the independent report, coincidentally got his qualifications at Bolgna university, apparently. The same university where Sergio Focardi resided, and the same Bologna university that Rossi was involved with in the early days of his ecat.
      What a coincidence. Of all the engineers in the whole world, IH, a company in North America, when needing an engineer to verify the validity of something they were looking at investing a hundred million dollars in, ‘chose’ an engineer from the other side of the planet and coincidentally, from the same university where Rossi and Focardi were working. What an amazing coincidence.
      I don’t suppose they even knew each other.
      I bet Mr Rossi was absolutely amazed to come in to work one day and find the ERV was someone from his very familiar University of Bologna.

      I wonder why IH didn’t select an engineer from the thousands of American engineers? Or even English, or Swiss, or Swedish? or any other nationality? or any other university? I can appreciate that none of them would be as smart as an Italian engineer from Bologna University, but it was a simple task which I’m pretty sure an engineer from any of the mentioned countries could do the job adequately well. Or even better in fact.
      Not that any of that would have had any influence on the test procedures or results of course, but gee, it is an amazing coincidence isn’t it?

      I can hardly wait to see who does the acceptance tests on the new 1MW plants to be delivered. It might be best if Mr Rossi did these himself because he would undoubtedly know how to get the best performance out of his plants.

      • Mats002

        Rossi is a true genious! Question is on what subject?

        Only nature can decide, I say do more NiH experiments.

        • HS61AF91

          I’s say his ingenuousness lies in his persistence.

      • wpj

        The original tests were carried out in Italy, and he was chosen by IH. This is WELL documented.

        Also, read the court documents (final page posted elsewhere by Eng48) which states that there was NO interest in JMC by ANY of the Leonardo people, spouses, or the lawyer.

        • Engineer48

          Just so no one fails to read it, here it is again.

          • wpj

            Maybe you should get Frank to put that as a sticky on the front page to stop you having to re-post it every time someone comes up with this junk again!

          • psi2u2

            I’m glad that YOU are such an innovative entrepreneur full of good ideas. You must be a genius.

        • Pweet

          And yet the name signed as being the president, of JM chemical products is Henry W Johnson, the same name as is listed as being tied up with numerous other Rossi enterprises, Leonardo Corp and Mr Rossi. Is that just another irrelevant coincidence? Have I mis-interpreted this? If it’s the same Henry W Johnson he can hardly be seen as any more independent than Rossi himself.

          My feeling is that the company of JM chemical Products which was supposed to be using the ecat energy output was a simple ‘do nothing’ shell company set up by Henry J. specifically choosing the name JM Chemical Products to make everyone think it was the real JM Chemicals who actually make chemicals. I don’t think anything was being made from the energy output of the 1MW ecat plant, except maybe boiling the water for morning tea.
          Is there anything left of the ‘factory of the customer’ now the test is over? Did they just dismantle the whole chemical production process when the test was over? Apparently so. Did anyone actually see anything of the production facility while it was in operation? Was it really so secret that nobody was even allowed to peek in the door?

          How can it be that everything around this 1MW plant test which was pumping out 1MW for one whole year, supposedly producing something which absorbed one whole megawatt continuously, was so secret that it left not a trace of anything anywhere? Everything around this whole facility has the property of vaporware, and on that basis I find it all a bit too hard to believe.

          • wpj

            This has been explained soooooo many times, it’s not worth any more a response than this.

          • Pweet

            Okey dokey. So long as everyone is aware of the established affiliations between the various persons and parties and is happy with it all. I can’t do more than that.

          • Omega Z

            It’s been explained that Attorney Henry Johnson signed the agreement to assure the anonymity of the client. Apparently, this was an intelligent precaution as this document has been repeatedly posted around the internet. The client definitely wouldn’t have remained anonymous if this precaution hadn’t been taken.

            Of course, this is likely not a surprise to Rossi because he has had innocent pictures traced to specific addresses in the past from the metadata associated with the pictures.

          • Just because it’s vaporware in your imagination doesn’t mean that’s the way it happened in real life. The only people who know what activity occurred at the plant site are the people that were there. Periodic movement of raw materials in and finished materials out would not have seemed anything unusual for that kind of facility.

      • Fedir Mykhaylov

        Well when Rossi came to work he saw that checks himself Enrico Fermi

      • Penon entered the scene when Darden and Vaughn did, mid 2012. There seems to be just as much of a connection between them and Penon as between Rossi and Penon.

        Penon had done earlier validations for them on the E-Cat and so we can conclude that both sides trusted him to be an honest broker up at least until the test started in 2015.

        IH could have and should have insisted on somebody new who was above reproach or suspicion. They did not, but that’s not on Rossi, that’s on them.

        Your language spins a tale of deceit but the ground truth is that Rossi has offered up an E-Cat for testing over 6 months by a team of scientists on another continent and he followed that up by executing a contractually agreed upon test evaluated by an agreed to 3rd party over one year with personnel employed by Industrial Heat on site every day. And he did all this with $11.5M already in his pocket.

        • Pweet

          Yes, I’ve read all that. But what I also read was Fabio Penon’s CV which says he got his doctorate at Bologna university. That was about 20 years ago, well before he did any ecat tests for IH or Mr Rossi.
          That is the coincidence that I find amazing, that IH would coincidentally choose someone from the same university as Mr Rossi for their person to verify the validity of something they intended to put so much money into. Is Bologna university the only university in Europe to train engineers? The most logical conclusion would have to be that he was recommended by someone, and most probably by Mr Rossi, or at least by some-one at the request of Mr Rossi. How else could such an unlikely coincidence occur? I find it impossible to believe IH plucked his name from a phone book or from the ‘situations wanted” column in a newspaper.
          Maybe I’m just overly cynical but to me, the choice of the ERV is an important matter in determining the reliability of the test results.
          If the validity of the technology had already been proven to the whole world and the test was just a formality, then not so important, but since it has been a matter of long debate, I think perhaps someone totally removed from all previous association with Mr Rossi and/or Bologna university would have been far more acceptable. But I accept that for those who have no doubts the ecat works brilliantly, with a COP up to 50, the matter is of no relevance at all. In that case, fair enough. He was just confirming something which was already known.

          • The initial testing in 2012 happened in Italy so they got a local expert from a nearby prestigious university. What’s the big deal? Rossi has shown no particular familiarity with Penon ever since that time.

            I 100% agree with you though that Industrial Heat’s decision to re-use Penon as the ERV, whatever his origins and affiliations, was a horrendous mistake as viewed by us here in the peanut gallery who want solid proof. A new, unquestionably independent entity (preferably more than just an individual) with major credibility was the obvious choice. Why they didn’t make that choice I’ll never understand.

            Whatever else they have done or not done I think most of us can agree that Industrial Heat really screwed that one up.

          • TVulgaris

            I have many doubts about many things when I lack data, however, I can entertain any hypothesis whatsoever. So, I’ll hypothesize I knew everyone else, not just in my department, but the entire engineering school during the 14 years I attended college. Obviously, any one of them would co-operate with me in any technical project I might chose, if they happened to be selected by my contractual partner who is currently on the hook for $100M…up to and including violating professional standards and destroying their professional credibility.

      • Omega Z

        Rossi has been to all these countries you name.

        Likely he knows all the engineers.

        He definitely knows how to cover all his bases.
        Sarc.

    • wpj

      Read the court documents, please. This keeps being bought up when the legal documents have a disclaimer to ANY association with JMC.

      Easy, last page or look on another thread where Eng48 has posted that page to save the effort.

      • Engineer48

        Here.

    • This is nothing new OR. We went over all this a while ago.

      Rossi’s lawyer set up a shell company to protect the identity of a UK entity in which Rossi (or his family) and Leonardo have no ownership interest. The bit about the UK entity is in the legal filings.

      The real question needing to be answered is not what Henry Johnson does for a living, it’s who is the real customer.

      It’s far from ideal but the implication that Johnson is at the hub of some network of dodgy activity is off base.

      • Pweet

        Yes, and we know all that because Mr Rossi said so.
        So long as that’s good enough for everybody then that’s fine.

        • What are you talking about? It’s in a document — the agreement between IH and Leonardo — filed with the court.

          And the Johnson ownership (EDIT: should have said Presidency) is established via other legal documents available on the Internet.

          ‘Rossi says’ is not a factor here.

          Unless you’re saying he forged a document and filed it with the court. Which is just ridiculous so I hope that’s not what you believe.

          • pweet

            No not saying that.

    • Engineer48

      Hi OR,

      Please read the court sworn document attached, especially the last sentence.

      • LuFong

        Why would anybody legally associate with Rossi if Rossi is trying to perpetrate fraud? This is practically a worthless act.

        • Teemu Soilamo

          What the heck is going on with the formatting of those quotes? Can’t make any sense of it.

      • Obvious

        If that statement is not true, there will be some serious consequences. Probably before the 2017 IH trial. If it is not challenged before the IH trial, then I would think it is likely true.

        Disproving this statement would be a serious blow to Rossi’s case, especially before the main trial, and I would expect the IH layer team to be investigating this already.

    • cashmemorz

      I have run across co-incidences that made my hair stand on end. One such event involved someone that I got to know fairly well. Lets call him GW. This person was in fact, a farmer and social worker. Then I met another person who looked exactly like GW, had the same mannerisms as GW and had the same voice as GW. This other person was an engineer with whom I had an interview for a job. I could barely contain myself when I was talking with this other person, the similarities, or I should say exactitudes, were astonishing. This kind of thing has happened to me several times. Was it a conspiracy? No! There will always be things that coincide so strangely that it will make your hair stand on end. Similar to Rossi’s lawyer and JM products. Accept it as a strong, maybe unlikely coincidence, but there it is.

  • Ophelia Rump

    Attorney Henry W. Johnson is the President, Treasurer, Secretary, Director,Of JM Products
    Henry is also the President of Leonardo Corporation, formerly secretary.
    That seems like an odd relationship for the “Customer” who was only buying the heat from the device being tested.

    I hit the Jackpot!
    I found an interactive tree of companies related to Henry Johnson including Leonardo Corporation.
    Fifteen active, 28 inactive corporations.

    https://www.corporationwiki.com/p/2ff7y4/jm-products-inc
    ______________________________________________________________________________

    RefC Realestate corp is related to Leonardo
    Leonardo is related to Rossi
    Rossi is related to RefC Realestate corp.
    Henry W Johnson is related to RefC Realestate corp.
    JM Products Inc is related to Henry W Johnson.
    JM Products inc does not appear to have any parent company?
    But I thought Rossi said the parent company of JM Chemicals ordered 1MW plants.
    Either the parent is on the tree somewhere not directly related or it does not exist.
    Henry is President of Leonardo corporation, formerly secretary.
    Rossi is CEO.

    OK This is J.M. Chemical Products, Inc. Info.

    https://visulate.com/rental/visulate_search.php?CORP_ID=P14000056117

    Their directors and officers listed is only this one attorney.
    Henry Johnson
    1401 N University Dr Ste 301
    Coral Springs
    FL 33071
    (Broward County)
    _____________________________________
    Johnson & Walters Pa: Johnson Henry W  
    Attorney
    Address: 1401 N University Dr, Coral Springs, FL 33071

    Another shell corporation?

    AKA:
    J and C Chemical Products
    J & C Chemical Products

    http://www.cobraf.com/forum/immagini/R_123598567_3.pdf

    • Rene

      A tangled WEB of intrigue 🙂

    • Pweet

      Re the above;-
      “Attorney Henry W. Johnson is the President, Treasurer, Secretary, Director,Of JM Products

      Henry is also the President of Leonardo Corporation, formerly secretary.

      That seems like an odd relationship for the “Customer” who was only buying the heat from the device being tested.”
      No more ‘odd’ than the amazing coincidence that the ERV who was allegedly ‘chosen’ by IH to do the independent report, coincidentally got his qualifications at Bolgna university, apparently. The same university where Sergio Focardi resided, and the same Bologna university that Rossi was involved with in the early days of his ecat.
      What a coincidence. Of all the engineers in the whole world, IH, a company in North America, when needing an engineer to verify the validity of something they were looking at investing a hundred million dollars in, ‘chose’ an engineer from the other side of the planet and coincidentally, from the same university where Rossi and Focardi were working. What an amazing coincidence.
      I don’t suppose they even knew each other.
      I bet Mr Rossi was absolutely amazed to come in to work one day and find the ERV was someone from his very familiar University of Bologna.

      I wonder why IH didn’t select an engineer from the thousands of American engineers? Or even English, or Swiss, or Swedish? or any other nationality? or any other university? I can appreciate that none of them would be as smart as an Italian engineer from Bologna University, but it was a simple task which I’m pretty sure an engineer from any of the mentioned countries could do the job adequately well. Or even better in fact.
      Not that any of that would have had any influence on the test procedures or results of course, but gee, it is an amazing coincidence isn’t it?

      I can hardly wait to see who does the acceptance tests on the new 1MW plants to be delivered. It might be best if Mr Rossi did these himself because he would undoubtedly know how to get the best performance out of his plants.

      • Mats002

        Rossi is a true genious! Question is on what subject?

        Only nature can decide, I say do more NiH experiments.

        • HS61AF91

          I’s say his ingenuousness lies in his persistence.

      • wpj

        The original tests were carried out in Italy, and he was chosen by IH. This is WELL documented.

        Also, read the court documents (final page posted elsewhere by Eng48) which states that there was NO interest in JMC by ANY of the Leonardo people, spouses, or the lawyer.

        • Engineer48

          Just so no one fails to read it, here it is again.

          • wpj

            Maybe you should get Frank to put that as a sticky on the front page to stop you having to re-post it every time someone comes up with this junk again!

        • Pweet

          And yet the name signed as being the president, of JM chemical products is Henry W Johnson, the same name as is listed as being tied up with numerous other Rossi enterprises, Leonardo Corp and Mr Rossi. Is that just another irrelevant coincidence? Have I mis-interpreted this? If it’s the same Henry W Johnson he can hardly be seen as any more independent than Rossi himself.

          My feeling is that the company of JM chemical Products which was supposed to be using the ecat energy output was a simple ‘do nothing’ shell company set up by Henry J. specifically choosing the name JM Chemical Products to make everyone think it was the real JM Chemicals who actually make chemicals. I don’t think anything was being made from the energy output of the 1MW ecat plant, except maybe boiling the water for morning tea.
          Is there anything left of the ‘factory of the customer’ now the test is over? Did they just dismantle the whole chemical production process when the test was over? Apparently so. Did anyone actually see anything of the production facility while it was in operation? Was it really so secret that nobody was even allowed to peek in the door?

          How can it be that everything around this 1MW plant test which was pumping out 1MW for one whole year, supposedly producing something which absorbed one whole megawatt continuously, was so secret that it left not a trace of anything anywhere? Everything around this whole facility has the property of vaporware, and on that basis I find it all a bit too hard to believe.

          • wpj

            This has been explained soooooo many times, it’s not worth any more a response than this.

          • Pweet

            Okey dokey. So long as everyone is aware of the established affiliations between the various persons and parties and is happy with it all. I can’t do more than that.

          • Omega Z

            It’s been explained that Attorney Henry Johnson signed the agreement to assure the anonymity of the client. Apparently, this was an intelligent precaution as this document has been repeatedly posted around the internet. The client definitely wouldn’t have remained anonymous if this precaution hadn’t been taken.

            Of course, this is likely not a surprise to Rossi because he has had innocent pictures traced to specific addresses in the past from the metadata associated with the pictures.

          • Just because it’s vaporware in your imagination doesn’t mean that’s the way it happened in real life. The only people who know what activity occurred at the plant site are the people that were there. Periodic movement of raw materials in and finished materials out would not have seemed anything unusual for that kind of facility.

      • Fedir Mykhaylov

        Well when Rossi came to work he saw that checks himself Enrico Fermi

      • Penon entered the scene when Darden and Vaughn did, mid 2012. There seems to be just as much of a connection between them and Penon as between Rossi and Penon.

        Penon had done earlier validations for them on the E-Cat and so we can conclude that both sides trusted him to be an honest broker up at least until the test started in 2015.

        IH could have and should have insisted on somebody new who was above reproach or suspicion. They did not, but that’s not on Rossi, that’s on them.

        Your language spins a tale of deceit but the ground truth is that Rossi has offered up an E-Cat for testing over 6 months by a team of scientists on another continent and he followed that up by executing a contractually agreed upon test evaluated by an agreed to 3rd party over one year with personnel employed by Industrial Heat on site every day. And he did all this with $11.5M already in his pocket.

        • Pweet

          Yes, I’ve read all that. But what I also read was Fabio Penon’s CV which says he got his doctorate at Bologna university. That was about 20 years ago, well before he did any ecat tests for IH or Mr Rossi.
          That is the coincidence that I find amazing, that IH would coincidentally choose someone from the same university as Mr Rossi for their person to verify the validity of something they intended to put so much money into. Is Bologna university the only university in Europe to train engineers? The most logical conclusion would have to be that he was recommended by someone, and most probably by Mr Rossi, or at least by some-one at the request of Mr Rossi. How else could such an unlikely coincidence occur? I find it impossible to believe IH plucked his name from a phone book or from the ‘situations wanted” column in a newspaper.
          Maybe I’m just overly cynical but to me, the choice of the ERV is an important matter in determining the reliability of the test results.
          If the validity of the technology had already been proven to the whole world and the test was just a formality, then not so important, but since it has been a matter of long debate, I think perhaps someone totally removed from all previous association with Mr Rossi and/or Bologna university would have been far more acceptable. But I accept that for those who have no doubts the ecat works brilliantly, with a COP up to 50, the matter is of no relevance at all. In that case, fair enough. He was just confirming something which was already known.

          • The initial testing in 2012 happened in Italy so they got a local expert from a nearby prestigious university. What’s the big deal? Rossi has shown no particular familiarity with Penon ever since that time.

            I 100% agree with you though that Industrial Heat’s decision to re-use Penon as the ERV, whatever his origins and affiliations, was a horrendous mistake as viewed by us here in the peanut gallery who want solid proof. A new, unquestionably independent entity (preferably more than just an individual) with major credibility was the obvious choice. Why they didn’t make that choice I’ll never understand.

            Whatever else they have done or not done I think most of us can agree that Industrial Heat really screwed that one up.

          • TVulgaris

            I have many doubts about many things when I lack data, however, I can entertain any hypothesis whatsoever. So, I’ll hypothesize I knew everyone else, not just in my department, but the entire engineering school during the 14 years I attended college. Obviously, any one of them would co-operate with me in any technical project I might chose, if they happened to be selected by my contractual partner who is currently on the hook for $100M…up to and including violating professional standards and destroying their professional credibility.

      • Omega Z

        Rossi has been to all these countries you name.

        Likely he knows all the engineers.

        He definitely knows how to cover all his bases.
        Sarc.

    • wpj

      Read the court documents, please. This keeps being bought up when the legal documents have a disclaimer to ANY association with JMC.

      Easy, last page or look on another thread where Eng48 has posted that page to save the effort.

      • Engineer48

        Here.

    • This is nothing new OR. We went over all this a while ago.

      Rossi’s lawyer set up a shell company to protect the identity of a UK entity in which Rossi (or his family) and Leonardo have no ownership interest. The bit about the UK entity is in the legal filings.

      The real question needing to be answered is not what Henry Johnson does for a living, it’s who is the real customer.

      It’s far from ideal but the implication that Johnson is at the hub of some network of dodgy activity is off base.

      • Pweet

        Yes, and we know all that because Mr Rossi said so.
        So long as that’s good enough for everybody then that’s fine.

        • What are you talking about? It’s in a document — the agreement between IH and Leonardo — filed with the court.

          And the Johnson ownership (EDIT: should have said Presidency) is established via other legal documents available on the Internet.

          ‘Rossi says’ is not a factor here.

          Unless you’re saying he forged a document and filed it with the court. Which is just ridiculous so I hope that’s not what you believe.

          • pweet

            No not saying that.

    • Engineer48

      Hi OR,

      Please read the court sworn document attached, especially the last sentence.

      • Obvious

        If that statement is not true, there will be some serious consequences. Probably before the 2017 IH trial. If it is not challenged before the IH trial, then I would think it is likely true.

        Disproving this statement would be a serious blow to Rossi’s case, especially before the main trial, and I would expect the IH layer team to be investigating this already.

    • cashmemorz

      I have run across co-incidences that made my hair stand on end. One such event involved someone that I got to know fairly well. Lets call him GW. This person was in fact, a farmer and social worker. Then I met another person who looked exactly like GW, had the same mannerisms as GW and had the same voice as GW. This other person was an engineer with whom I had an interview for a job. I could barely contain myself when I was talking with this other person, the similarities, or I should say exactitudes, were astonishing. This kind of thing has happened to me several times. Was it a conspiracy? No! There will always be things that coincide so strangely that it will make your hair stand on end. Similar to Rossi’s lawyer and JM products. Accept it as a strong, maybe unlikely coincidence, but there it is.

  • Chapman

    Oh my! Do you follow what Rossi is suggesting???

    He is not free to publish the ERV report on the 1 year test due to legal restrictions imposed by the current litigation – BUT there is nothing stopping him from releasing a full report on the NEW 1 MW reactors he is producing, and will no doubt be TESTING, for his industrial customer!

    It would be hard to avoid a conspicuous similarity between the ERV report and the pre-sale evaluation report on the NEW unit, as they are identical units, which could be tested by identical methods, and have, we would suspect, identical results. As stated, the reports would be identical except for the absence of the ERV’s certification.

    Rossi is not restricted from releasing performance/test data on ANY OTHER 1 MW reactor, just from releasing the ERV’s contested 1 year report.

    Think about it…

    • Rene

      It is the certification that is the important part. That ensures a report verified by an independent party who has ensured the measurement protocols are solid. Otherwise, it is another ‘Rossi says’. An independent verifier proves Rossi’s claims. Now yes, everyone can jump on “the market will truth” mantra (admittedly, I’ve said that too), but that then means even more delays in moving forward. Meanwhile we are:

      http://i.makeagif.com/media/7-30-2015/rVJJ82.gif

      • Ophelia Rump

        No, Rossi’s partner had a financial interest in both sides of the wall for that test. There was no disinterested third party. There was Team Rossi controlling both sides of the field for the test. There has always been the presumption that a third party was purchasing power, now there is no third party, leaving open the question, was there anyone purchasing power?

        It was not the customer who did not wish anyone to inspect the factory, it was the President of Leonardo Corporation, because they are one and the same.

        • Rene

          Yes, this is understood. A shell company set up by his attorney. It is why I keep stating a truly independent verifier is needed, that or wait until the market speaks on the matter.

          • Mats002

            Hi Rene, I agree the need of ‘a truly independent verifier’.

            The problem is that during the years of this story many independent people have verified but later been dismissed as ‘not independent or gullible’.

            I am sure there will be more ‘independent verifiers’ coming up and low and behold! They too will be dismissed with the ‘not independent or gullible’ argument.

          • Pweet

            The trouble with using anyone too independent is that they get such terrible results, and that’s really bad for business. I remember quite early on when an independent power measuring company did a quick test on an ecat for a Swedish agent. Within an hour or two they concluded there was no excess energy at all, and then left. The only thing that resulted was a week long discussions about the power consumption of a 60 watt light globe. I would have thought that to be 60 watts but apparently even that became obscure.
            It’s generally accepted that if you want to get known results, it’s best to use known people. And if you still don’t get the results you want, get someone you know a little bit better.

          • Mats002

            Sorry Ptweet, it’s not as simple as who you know. I know a lot of people that would not accept a lie from me, much less lie WITH me before others.

          • Pweet

            That’s right. So you would know not to choose them. If you know them well you will know which ones will suit your purpose and thus choose them.
            That’s just a general observation of course, not that anything like that would be happening here.

          • Mats002

            See the list of names from LENRG above. It is just half of known names, then there are a number of not published names that was ‘choosen’ by AR.

            The list is simply too long, that idea of yours is not a survivor.

          • That makes you a conspiracy theorist.

            At least you wear it proudly.

          • Private Citizen

            And taking Rossi’s side against an IH conspiracy to steal his tech and withold payment is not that dirty dismissive “C”-word?

          • On the first point, I’ve never said that IH stole the tech; I think they paid for it fair and square and the agreement says they can do just about anything with it (though IANAL). In fact I think Rossi must provide the QX technology to IH too (and that may be what this is all about).

            On the second point it’s a fair question. I’m not sure if a company taking legal action to avoid payment for something they may feel they did not receive is best described by the word ‘conspiracy’ but the point is taken.

            Some group of people is behaving badly.

          • Omega Z

            They can do what ever they want with the IP within their own businesses. They are not allowed to share it with Rossi’s competitors They are required to protect the IP. However, by not completing the contract, A judge could declare the contract null and void in it’s entirety. Rossi returns the 11.5 million and IH/Darden forfeit all licensee rights to the IP.

            As to the Quark, How do you share something in it’s infancy. Also, had IH honored the contract, this technology would have been shared when R&D was concluded. Rossi acknowledged this on JONP before the 1 year test concluded as all future developments would also have been shared. This argument doesn’t hold water…

            Some ask why IH/Darden would risk the IP when the rewards are so great. You can not rule out greed. I’ve personally witnessed people risking an IRS audit by trying to literally cheat the government out of pennies. Greed knows no limits no matter how large or small.

          • My reading of the agreement is that IH could do whatever they wanted with the IP once transferred… but IANAL. I’m sure the lawyers will sort it all out.

          • HS61AF91

            Nothing wrong with postulating, theorizing, and being able to not embrace, as in my own choice. Synchronicities do exist, There’s a theory I do believe in. Like ‘Bologna university.’

          • Omega Z

            Seriously, the Swedish agent you speak of is a Leonardo partner. Obviously, the energy output issue was resolved.

            Swedish agent/physicist is 1 of the founders of Hydro Fusion Ltd. They also manage the Ecat com site
            http://hydrofusion.com/news

            Hydro Fusions
            CEO Magnus Holm
            Stockholm, Sweden … Oil & Energy
            Senior Physicist and Business Developer.

            Skills
            Business Development
            Technological Innovation
            Risk Management
            High Energy Physics
            Particle Physics
            Cold Fusion
            LENR E-Cat
            C/C++, Delphi, PHP, ASP, HTML, Mathematica
            ——————————————————
            The Press release you reference in 2012

            Hydro Fusion witnessed a new independent test of the high temperature ECAT prototype reactor on September 6th in Bologna. Although no full report has yet been received, early indications are that the results of the July 16th/August 7th reports could not be reproduced.

            Hydro Fusion cannot at this stage support any claims made, written or other, about the amount of excess heat generated by the new high temperature ECAT prototype.

          • Focardi – Gullible.
            Fioravante – co-conspirator or inept.
            Levi – co-conspirator.
            Penon – co-conspirator or ultra-mega-world champion inept.
            Fabiani – co-conspirator.
            Lewan – gullible
            Darden/Vaughn – gullible/inept
            Woodford – gullible
            New partner (pending verification) – gullible/inept

            Phew. Quite a trail of stupidity and corruption.

          • Steve Savage

            According to the skepticles, Rossi should be awarded the Nobel prize for “Deception”. The only way this is possible is if he is deceiving himself, I suppose this is a possibility, but I find Rossi to be far to clear headed to have fallen into this particular trap.

          • Michael W Wolf

            The only thing I think Rossi is guilty of, that most all scientists are guilty of….. exaggeration. A lot of people will owe Rossi an apology when this is all said and done. But they won’t apologize, they will disappear and pop up somewhere else burning hopes to the ground just for the fun of it. They have no creativity, just destruction in their heart. Pity.

          • Michael W Wolf

            And most of them have been libeled by the skeptics with no proof whatsoever. Just opinion raised to the level of fact to justify libel.

          • roseland67

            G

            NASA
            Fermi
            Argonne
            Berkeley
            CERN

            All gullible and inept?
            Of course not, give an Ecat to them for evaluation

          • I doubt any are gullible or inept (though the motives of one or two might give me pause).

            However I don’t have an E-Cat to give them. If I did, I would.

          • Hi LENR G,

            thanks for your lists and summaries. I’d like to point out that this list is actually much longer than that. for example there are many other licensees, current and past, that either failed at dd (inept) or did not (co-conspirators) if Rossi doesn’t have “IT”

            btw, it’s interesting that IH doesn’t seem willing to give up the Ecat license just yet.

          • Yeah. Sometimes I go full list, sometimes I just have the patience to hit the highlights.

          • Omega Z

            Only those (even a parrot) who proclaim no excess heat are considered to be qualified.

        • Fedir Mykhaylov

          Sorry … And where independent British chemical company producing metal catalysts?

          • wpj

            Look up “Sponge Metal” (with TM for trade mark after) and you will find.

        • Michael W Wolf

          You just can’t accuse people. You can say there is some evidence that there may be a conflict of interest. But just because there may be a conflict doesn’t mean it is not legit and deserves your Libel.

      • Steve Savage

        Fission

        Discovery – In 1902 Ernest Rutherford showed that radioactivity as a spontaneous
        event emitting an alpha or beta particle from the nucleus created a
        different element. He went on to develop a fuller understanding of atoms
        and in 1919 he fired alpha particles from a radium source into nitrogen
        and found that nuclear rearrangement was occurring,

        Commercialization – In the USA, Westinghouse designed the first fully commercial PWR of 250 MWe, Yankee Rowe, which started up in 1960

        Duration 40 Years give or take ….

        Lets equate 1919 with 1989 ( Dr. Pons and Dr. Fleischmann)

        Cold Fusion

        Discovery – 1989 ( Dr. Pons and Dr. Fleischmann) Delayed at lease 20 years by an ignorant scientific establishment…

        Commercialization – 2019 ??

        Duration – 30 Years

        Seems to me we are right on track !! Thanks to Rossi 🙂

        • TVulgaris

          There was, however, not the slightest impediment from any government, academic, or commercial interest until the US entry in the War- so nearly 20 years of that period represents a lackadaisical pursuit that produced no commercially useful products (other than novelty items with unknown high risks), even after FDR ordered federal research to compete with the German effort, and then in less than 2 years of development, the US suddenly had nuclear weapons.
          The US academic institutions effectively killed nearly all work in LENR within two years, exerting all their influence with the government to prevent further federal funding, effectively relegating it to a hobby pursuit- yet those pursuing the hobby for the past 25 years since that interdiction have produced many positive results, to the point at least DoD certainly doesn’t argue with the existence of LENR, and hasn’t for nearly the past decade (not that they talked much about it…). I think we’re way ahead of the cycle, but that has at least as much to do with the development cycle acceleration of the past 60 years.

          • the worst is that this efficient blocus was clearly done by a mix of altruistic ideals (protecting from bad science) spoken loudly , while supported silently to defend scarce budgets.

            Note also the LENR scientists, and LENR itself, conspirated to make that mechanism work. complex experimental work, incoherent LENR community, amplifie maybe by the high stakes…

            there is nothing specific to LENR

      • roseland67

        Rene,
        the only certification needed is from UL labs

        • Rene

          Yes, of course, if you want to go the market truthout option, which places this years down the line.

        • Eyedoc

          I’ll be happy to have an uncertified Quark system for my business or home at this point……. AR has safely spent enough up close time with his ECats for me to consider myself a risk worthy guinea pig.

          • roseland67

            Doc,
            I wouldn’t,
            because I do not believe everything that is on the internet.

    • GiveADogABone

      It does not need a full one-year test. Just a week would be good, followed by regular monthly. First report when?

    • If the lawsuit is just a diversion and Rossi proceeds toward commercialization, I’m sure there’ll be much valuable news in the days ahead, performance reports and otherwise.

      If he remains stuck in R&D with only secret customers indefinitely, then the fraud conspiracy scenarios will remain viable.

      • Chapman

        Too True…

    • roseland67

      Chapman,

      Think about this, give it to NASA, Argonne, Fermi, MIT, Berkley, CERN with all of the NDa’s you want

      • HS61AF91

        I theorize DoD already has working LENR-type energy generation. Not conspiracy, only it feels right to me alone (a hunch). Damn shame so much suffering continues in this world, when such ‘secrets’ get shoved into the back shelf. That’s why Dr. Rossi so inspires, he’s about as open as possible in this conspiratorial world, and he will succeed, because persistence does not quit.

        • Steve Savage

          I agree completely, it would be almost impossible to believe, given the huge potential of this technology, that the DoD does not have one or more “Dark” projects investigating LENR.

          • cashmemorz

            So the governments order to get a report about LENR this fall, 2016 would deny anything of government involvement in LENR. This makes me dizzy for some reason.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Steve,

            An engineering friend, who I trust, told me NASA has 2 groups working on LENR. With 1st application LENR heating of traditional cold gas thrusters.

            He also recently told me he knew of US gov labs that had confirmed direct DC generation from Rossi type LENR reactors.

        • roseland67

          Why hasn’t Rossi given an Ecat to one of our national labs for testing?
          They will sign any NDA required and be the ERV, they do it often with auto, computer, battery, chemical companies.
          If it works, Rossi is instantly vindicated and in line for the Nobel,
          However, the alternative?

          Why hasn’t he done this?
          Cannot wait to hear this.

          • Michael W Wolf

            I feel about national labs, what you feel about Rossi.

          • roseland67

            Michael,

            Well I guess unlike you, I know many dozens of people at many national labs in The US. I have met them, discussed experiments, evaluations, alternatives and a few “what if” scenarios. They are all relatively intelligent people appearing to be honest and inquisitive working on experiments, (not theory), and if given an Ecat for testing they would probably experiment again.
            I have never met Rossi, I would hazard a guess no one on the board has either, but most seem to trust him, his word, his results etc explicitly?
            This to me is simply mind knumbingly foolish.

          • Michael W Wolf

            You have a gold nugget in your hand and throw it away because you know it is fools gold. It is just as important to prove it is gold as it is to prove it is not gold. I’d rather save it til I know. Same with Rossi. I may be fooled, but you are chancing letting the world rot because of assumptions. If I am wrong, I have lost nothing. If you are wrong and help others you have influenced to not believe and not help Rossi, all may be lost. The pascalian wager, so to speak.

          • HS61AF91

            Howdy Rose, wait no longer, google “Invention Secrecy Act of 1951” and acquaint yourself with the inertia of ‘status quo’ governmental/industrial control. Dr. Rossi adeptly avoids its ensnarement. May his prior run-ins with law enable him to remain free, and when his destiny is eCats everywhere, ‘save the world’.

      • Chapman

        Yeah, RIGHT…

        May I remind you that MIT and CalTech did the original hit job on Ponds and Flashman?

        None of the above institutions are credible for validation because they are all involved with funding arrangements hostile to the very CONCEPT of LENR.

        The only validation I require is the horrible, derided, and maligned “Rossi Says”. That’s good enough for me, because there is no-one else I can think of that I can point to and say “There is a guy more credible than Rossi, with no baggage”.

        And lastly, I fully accept that Rossi has no obligation to prove anything to me, until he puts a product on the shelf at my local Walmart. For me to demand proof of his work as though I was an appointed gate-keeper of truth, or to delude myself into believing that just because I participate in an online chat ABOUT lenr that my opinion should matter one teeny bit to those involved IN lenr – well, that would just about be the very height of conceit; A sure sign that I needed evaluation by qualified Behavioral Health specialists.

        • roseland67

          Again, there is always a reason why he can’t, but never why he can.
          Then give it to all of them and let them all test it per Rossi’s methodology.
          Any of the national labs, any of them, will sign any NDA that Rossi wants, and they will also be a global ERV.
          It will be immediately apparent to the world if the Ecat does in fact produce “excess heat”.
          There is no reason, none, that any reasonable person can come up with rejecting this approach.
          Only Rossi zealots and apologists find excuses why he can’t as opposed to why he can.
          2020 will come and go and we will still be discussing this.

          • Omega Z

            ->”There is no reason, none, that any reasonable person can come up with rejecting this approach.”

            au contraire…

            There are many excellent reasons for rejecting this approach. The world is full of thieves and it does not matter the alphabet labels or what prestigious association they have. None of these entities would hesitate to steal Rossi’s technology at the first opportunity. And, In addition, “no one” has given a good reason for Rossi to prove without doubt that his technology is real. No One…

            I can however give Billion$ of excellent reasons for Rossi not to prove his technology before he is ready. Once proven, Big money will be all over this technology. Rossi would end up as road kill. Rossi needs to have this ready for market before conclusively proving it works.

            Notice I did not say Rossi can’t. Only reasons why he shouldn’t.

          • Jarea

            I can think on an scenario.

            If you keep a low profile and being secret then you can be removed of the game and nobody will protest about that. Nobody will now that you were a genius and you had in your hands the freedom of the humanity but you just died as a crazy man in your apartment. A very sad scenario that is highly probable keeping this low profile roadmap.
            The advantages of having a secret plan is that you cannot be copied, yes! but you also cannot be backed up for being the first one on developing the technology. There would be still many competent people who will claim they were first because you couldn’t prove beyond doubt your device worked.

            Besides, your technology can be suppressed and the know-how can be eliminated if it is reduced to a few persons. The progress of a technology is reduced because nobody can help you to understand it and to think out of the box you have created.

            Lastly, there is a moral obligation for the human progress. It is not all about how many more millions will you able to control and earn. It is about being fair rich and ethical with your discovery. We are tired of hearing of black project from the US and technology that is being kept secret for the sake of the leadership.
            All those technologies could bring accelerated returns if they had been widely spread. Those technologies would save million of lives.
            Many advocate against disclosure of these technologies because it is important to keep leadership (greediness) or it safer for the public (weaponize the tech or dangerous radiation from the usage).
            I think that is all bullshit with all respect.
            First, no much comment on greediness. You always can see the other side of the coin and where some see leadership by being hide. Others, see weakness. A technology that is widely used is improved very fast. A secret/surprise technology is only valid for short time leadership.
            second, to weaponize a technology is something that can always be done. But that can be counteracted with new technology and control protocols. It has been always been the case.
            And regarding dangerous radiation we already have the certification for the 1MW plant. So come on.

          • Omega Z

            ->”you also cannot be backed up for being the first one on developing the technology”

            That’s what patents are for. And as for low profile. That was Rossi’s original intent. He only started doing public demo’s due to Focardi urging him to. Focardi was very ill and it was his dream to see in become public before his passing. If not for Focardi, we may not have any knowledge of the E-cat.

            As to credit for the discovery, Who created the Apple computer? Not Steve Jobs. He just sold the idea to the public. Who created Microsoft? Not Bill Gates. Gates merely obtained and incorporated an existing company.

            So You take credit. In 30/40 years, but for very few, no one will have a clue who you are. However, He who built a multibillion dollar industry will be known by everyone.

            “there is a moral obligation for the human progress.”

            I take it you spent years in school studying biology so you could find the cure for cancer. No. Why Not. What happened to your moral obligation to humananity. OK, Maybe you wouldn’t have been the one who found the cure. But, You didn’t even try.

            I find this moral obligation argument very distasteful. It is more of a disincentive not to work towards important accomplishments.

            What people should be doing is giving Rossi credit for being as open as he is. I wonder, Would there even be a MFMP. Would Russia, China, Japan, India and others have started up or restarted LENR research. Would the dozens of individuals be doing there own private research. Many Million$ have been directed towards this technology and nearly all of it is due to Rossi. We should be saying thank you to Rossi. Not, Give us your technology because you owe it to US.

          • Chapman

            I understand what you are saying Rossi COULD do, but my question is WHY do you think he should do such a thing? What exactly is it that you believe compels Rossi to submit his research to an outside organization to be verified?

            Rossi makes no demands, based on his research, that Universities change the science curriculum, so they have no standing to demand proof.

            Rossi has neither sought Federal research grants, nor lobbied for changes to US energy policy, so the Government has no reason to demand an opportunity to verify his personal research results.

            Rossi has not asked YOU for any money, or for you to volunteer time in a metal box for 1 year, so YOU have no justification for demanding he submit to testing to satisfy YOUR doubts.

            So, again, I ask in plain English – begging for a plain English response – What exactly do you believe REQUIRES that Rossi submits his work to an outside review and evaluation?

          • HS61AF91

            Right on. I too can not think of any reason why Rossi must submit, or quit.

          • roseland67

            Chapman,
            Because, If the Ecat works as stated then Rossi has developed a cure for the cancer of the 21st century.
            Uncountable amounts of pain, misery and suffering can be reduced/eliminated.
            Global pollution, potable water, incredible energy efficiencies etc can be realized and quality and length of life dramatically improved.
            How is that for plain English ?

          • Chapman

            Once again, Frank saves me from myself, and from the public embarrassment that would have JUSTLY come upon me had he posted my first reply. I don’t have anger issues, I swear! I just have a low BS tolerance…

            Thank You Frank. I just get SO frustrated sometimes I speak out of turn. Thank God you are there, like my personal “fixer” to clean up after my tantrums!

            So, I shall try again, after having taken a few deep breaths and done a little meditation – and having said to myself, “What would Lenr-G do?”

            so, here goes…
            ——————————————————–

            “How is that for plain English ?”

            Horrible!

            You recite the social benefits of Rossi’s work, but fail to cite a single reason compelling Rossi to submit his research for public/government validation! So let’s try again…

            What do you believe compels Rossi to submit to a validation protocol that meets your specific standards? What, specifically, does he owe YOU or anyone else?

            ———————————————————-

            See Frank! While “Site, Fail, and THAT are technically four-letter-words, I think you will agree that this version is a vast improvement and certainly less likely to offend… As always, Thank you for your patience; I am a work-in-progress. 🙂

  • Suzi Q

    Can somebody tell me why Rossi doesn’t just hook up his 1MW plant to a steam turbine and produce electricity? There are net metering laws in Florida which means the utilities have to buy back electricity produced by consumers. With COP of 50, Rossi could have the crappiest steam turbine on the market and still make money hand over fist. He could put a 1MW in every county in the state and be stinking rich. Why isn’t he doing this?

    • roseland67

      Careful there Suzy Q,
      That makes to much sense

      • Suzy Q

        OK, I admit I am not a steam engineer (only a Phd in stats), but I think my original question is valid. My neighbors have a heat exchange/heat pump in their new house using pipes that pump water down under their house. The point is that you can extract energy from any temperature gradient, not just a high temperatures. Rossi could basically mint money with a COP>50 water heater. He doesn’t need to sell 1MW plants to get rich, just make them. This would also produce enough revenue to develop the QuarkX and the inevitable Y,Z, and so on to Aleph-naught.

        • roseland67

          Q,

          It is more than valid, it is incredibly logical
          And has been proposed by many people for many years and always beaten down with inane arguments, and “skeptopath” analogies.
          I have no idea if the Ecat functions as Rossi suggests, I certainly hope it does, but after 5 years, his charade, along with the parade of excuses from the “faithful”, protecting their leader has worn uber thin.

    • wpj

      You cannot make electrical power with 105C steam!

      Discussed many, many, many times. The lowest viable temp of steam would be about 250C with the Siemens “low temp” system.

      • Ted-Z

        Electrical power can be made with much lower temperatures, even below 100 deg. C, and the installations are commercial. They may use a mixture of ammonia and water or fluorocarbons and they will work. The commercial solutions are used in converting the geothermal energy into electrical power.

    • SG

      With COP of 50 thermal electric devices or sterling engines make more sense to close the loop than a crappy (or any) steam turbine.

    • Omega Z

      ->”There are net metering laws in Florida which means the utilities have to buy back electricity produced by consumers.”

      This only works as long as the Utilities can force your neighbors to buy the excess energy at a premium. Once the neighbor disconnects or refuses to pay the price, it all comes to a halt.

      The only way this could ever work in the long term is,

      #1 Utility buys your excess at wholesale.
      #2 Utility sells back at retail.
      #3 Utility has the ability to refuse excess when demand is less then supply.

      Anything else leaves those who can least afford their utilities paying the highest prices.

  • GiveADogABone

    It does not need a full one-year test. Just a week would be good, followed by regular monthly. First report when?

  • wpj

    You cannot make electrical power with 105C steam!

    Discussed many, many, many times. The lowest viable temp of steam would be about 250C with the Siemens “low temp” system.

    • Ted-Z

      Electrical power can be made with much lower temperatures, even below 100 deg. C, and the installations are commercial. They may use a mixture of ammonia and water or fluorocarbons and they will work. The commercial solutions are used in converting the geothermal energy into electrical power.

  • Christina

    Dr. Rossi,

    Please give the power to make energy from the e-cats to someone who can protect us from an electromagnetic pulse (EMP) because Obama’s words are not going to stop our enemies from trying to bring us down without hurting our ecology so they can invade.

    Thank you,
    Christina

    • Jarea

      Really Christina? Are you a survivalist waiting for the armageddon?. Please, be more optimist.
      ECAT is here for the progress of humanity not only for the survival of few

      • cashmemorz

        Do not discourage pessimists, of that type at least. They will be amongst the first to line up and pay extra for their own imagined protection. The extra money will help in furthering the development of the E-Cat and LENR in general.

        • Omega Z

          Nature provides it’s own EMP’s from time to time.
          No one can protect the masses against this but the masses themselves.

          • Pweet

            Yes you’re right. And we are overdue for a big one.
            They have always happened on a regular basis but when our top technology was lighting by candles and oil lamps, they had little effect on anything. All that has changed in the last hundred years and now we are almost totally dependent on electricity and more critically, electronics. One big electromagnetic pulse from space will wreck all that. The last big one was about 150 years ago now, Another one of the same size could wreck the world economy for years.
            So far, there is pretty much nothing we can do about it.
            Even if Rossi’s ecat was real it wouldn’t help much, and I don’t believe it is real so it will help even less.

          • cashmemorz

            It is very strange that engineers and inventors who know about replacement for electronics are not doing anything about it. Its fluidics. It was being developed in the 1960’s. At that tIme I was with a company that made piping parts and systems for the aerospace industry. Among the parts they made were for backup systems for military aircraft. These systems could do what the electronics at that time did. The microelectronics such as transisitors overtook that analogue version of control. But the point is it worked then so a different system not based on electricity of any kind was available then so why is it not used now..

          • Pweet

            It’s still being worked on and there is progress, but the progress in microelectronics has been so rapid and cheap that it has left fluidics far behind. It’s a matter of getting the best performance from the smallest size and power consumption at an acceptable reliability, and so far, that has been achieved by microelectronics. The power consumption of the latest microelectronics is now incredibly low for what used to be an unbelievable level of computing power and reliability. And it’s still improving.

    • HHiram

      Frank, can we please moderate and remove posts like these. This does not contribute to the LENR conversation.

  • LuFong

    “We have already passed the phase to convince somebody. We have arrived at a product that is ready for market. Our judge is the market. In this field the phase of the competition in the field of theories, hypotheses, conjectures etc. is over. The competition is in the market. If somebody has a valid technology, he has not to convince people by chattering, he has to make a reactor that works and go and sell it, as we are doing.” Andrea Rossi, January 16, 2011.

    • Steve Savage

      Your posts illustrates a common phenomenon, inventors are almost always too optimistic, it seems to come with the territory. If you had invented something better and tried to bring it to market, you too would have experienced this. This would be true even if the product was relatively mundane. For Rossi, I am sure, given the nature and importance of the innovation, the effect is magnified significantly. I have seen much optimism suddenly fail and fall off the edge of the earth never to be heard from again. With Rossi it is different, despite not being able to live up to his own optimism, he continues to press forward, overcome naysayers and many other obstacles in a way few others have ever been able to accomplish.

      • Pweet

        There are always delays in getting something to mass production and marketing. I agree on that point and I accept it. But there should never have been any difficulty or delay in proving even just one of Rossi’s amazing inventions work. That is the problem, and it is on that clear and undeniable fact that my main argument against the validity of Rossi’s claims is based.
        If Rossi had what he said he had, and if he had been heating a factory with it for two years prior to announcement, he could have proved it in a matter of weeks, to the whole world.
        It’s not as if no one was interested. He had an audience of thousands worldwide, possibly more. Most of those, including me, were ready to accept he had ‘cracked the big one’, in spite of it being against all known science. He has not been beaten by big oil or big industry or government opposition. He has been beaten by his own inability to perform the most simple demonstration to a believable level, a job which a high school student could do adequately well if he had what Rossi claims he has.
        But in spite of all his supposed genius, Mr Rossi is unable to prove this in over FIVE YEARS! The only reason I can think of for this that is totally convincing is that he has nothing but false claims. This is the same conclusion we should have come to when the Defkalion partnership fell in a heap, but as is the case now, it was all dusted away with claims of how those terrible Defkalion people were just trying to steal his IP and not pay for it. And here we are four years later having exactly the same discussion. It’s got nothing to do with the terrible Defkalion people, the lazy licensees, or the terrible IH people.
        There is one common denominator here and that is, there is nothing workable to produce or to sell.
        Now, if that’s not true, and if Mr Rossi has everything he says, or even anything he says, he can disprove all this in a few days.
        Do I think he will? Not at all likely.

        • One could argue that he did indeed allow for this to happen by providing the E-Cat for testing by the Lugano team (and before that by much the same team in his workshop).

          Both tests were strongly positive, though the temperature measurements of the Lugano test look flawed (not Rossi’s fault or something he could have anticipated). The post-run testing of the Lugano ash however is definitive proof of nuclear activity.

          These persuasive results were dismissed as measurement errors and, in the case of the definitive proof, conspiracy and fraud.

          Given that kind of climate I totally understand Rossi when he proclaimed no more independent tests. The proof will be in the market. Independent testing got him nothing.

          • Pweet

            Re the above;-
            ” though the temperature measurements of the Lugano test look flawed (not Rossi’s fault or something he could have anticipated). ”
            I don’t agree with that. In fact I believe exactly the opposite. I think Mr Rossi was purposely at the Lugano test during the start up procedure to make sure the calibration runs at the start did NOT proceed into the upper temperature range where the real test was to be run, and he did this by previously melting down a reactor on the first dummy run, or control run. By doing that he ensured the operation at the higher temperatures would show a falsely higher temperature than was actually the case. Since the power output depends very much on the temperature to the power of 4, then the error in temperature produced a significant supposed increase in output power. I believe that is why Mr Rossi was there in spite of the fact he continually claimed he knew nothing about the tests and how they were going. He knew he could explain away his presence much easier than he could explain away the non performance if he wasn’t there.
            So the above claim that “not Rossi’s fault or something he could have anticipated” I think he definitely anticipated it and in fact, was there to make sure it happened.
            Just think about what would have happened if the control run was actually performed in the temperature range that it should have been, that is, at the temperature the test was going to be run at.
            The results would have shown a COP of between 1 and 1.1
            Does anyone seriously think IH would have committed 100 million dollars on the basis of a COP of 1.0 to 1.1? Some might think so but I don’t.

          • Pweet, the critical flaw in the analysis of the temperature output by the Lugano team was using an improper graph for the emissivity of alumina (in connection with the IR camera data) which did not account for varying emissivity over the relevant wavelengths being observed. The result was significantly overstating the temperature, rendering the whole energy analysis in their report invalid.

            This mistake had nothing to do with Rossi’s presence and anything he may or may have not done at the beginning or end of the test, nor was it something he could have anticipated.

          • It could be only an error of the testers, this was my main position.

            what made me, either consider Rossi’s misbehavoir, or an error is the emissivity theory, was that Rossi did say nothing about that error.

            if his technology is genuine, and given he started and stoped the reactor, he could not ignore the temperature was wrong.

            it is not a kid game, when you made a third party test and the testers screw the test and find something you know is wrong, you have to say it…

            it is clear that the result, the wrong result, was what was expected.

            if you add to that the Defkalion-style of prevention to access to the client side as he prodly admitted, it is very hard, like I did before, to defend his behavior.

            Sure Petroldragon, US Army, and E-cat pathetic test did not proved anything, but it did not disprove anything either.
            latest test and what start to leak is too much clear for me.

            I’m sad, furious, and now ready to reboot LENR 5 years earlier.

          • You’re choosing to believe the leaks of the people that owe $89M and have purchased the IP of at least one competitor (Lenuco) rather than the leaks making their way through a journalist.

            What about the leaks of a COP 50 report, that there’s no way the report could be in error except for fraud, that there’s a happy customer (direct from one of their engineers) and that there were glimpses of making metal sponges?

            What about the direct testimony of Fabiani and what he’s witnessed?

          • I beleived Rossi when he proudly said he prevented IH to inspect the client part, as Dewey reported.

            This reminded me the report of Luca Gamberale about Defkalion trick.
            It was not a mistake as they removed, like Rossi is reported, the improvement to calorimetry that luca installed.

            I trust darden and Dewey not to miss an opportunity to be bilionaire, and to avoid losing tha opportunity for less money than a bilion.

          • Common sense says that if Rossi is this supposed master scammer he’d be able to put something together on the customer side of the divide to be just as convincing as the 50x flow trick on the plant side. The only thing not showing the customer side of things does is remove one way for him to establish credibility.

            On the face of it the customer clearly wants to remain anonymous for now. You see that in the shell company. You see that in the lack of public statements. You see that when it was written into the agreement that the client side was off limits to visitors. That is a much more straightforward explanation than Rossi getting lazy and only setting up half a scam in the warehouse when somebody could easily go to the other side without permission and expose the whole thing.

            He’s brilliant. He’s stupid. He’s insane. He’s delusional. He’s out for more and more money besides having a ton already. He’s incompetent. He’s conspiring with others for years on end. He’s able to fool scientists and engineers time after time using a vast array of tricks and sleight of hand.

            C’mon people. Raise your games. Apply some common sense.

          • rossi if Jed/Dewey theory is real is all but a good scammer.

            in fact I think, from my own behavior, that Rossi is the king of an anti-FUD mechanism
            Hope-Uncertainty-Doubt…

            none of his past test is clear, and there is always a way to interpret it positively. none of his past affair is clear and there is always doubt to keep supporting him.

            the error is not to believe Rossi can be good boy, or bad boy, but to be sure.

            today from Jed CV and statements, from Dewey CV (and my own witnessing of his behavior, especially his mistakes IRL) and statements, the HUD start to dissipate. The Shrodinger cat is getting out of the box. and it is a zombie.

          • Were you impressed by Jed’s assertion that people in the ventilated and air conditioned warehouse would boil from the waste heat of the plant? That one was debunked by many.

            Were you impressed by Dewey’s contradictions, false and unsubstantiated information, and puerile forum behavior?

            Are you not aware that IH brought APCO on board and their specialty is destroying legal adversaries with misinformation campaigns?

            Do you factor these things in at all?

          • it was not debunked.

            assuming the business is genuine, the 1MW cannot be dissipated in the sewers.

            all is sadly coherent with a faked test.

            Before the outing of jed&dewey, I was optimistic for few reasons, despite Lugano failure :
            – IH was supporting them
            – there was a real client with real production (the best form of calorimetry)

            now there is nothing.
            Lugano not only is erroneous, but Rossi did not help the physicist to correct their mistakes, not even to dissipate the doubts by another one day test.

            does this raise red flags for people ?

            it did too me. I was too tolerant with what looked like diva behavior.

          • The majority of the heat would have been consumed (and stored) by the endothermic process of the customer. Waste heat would have been around 20 times smaller than 1 MW. 50 kW.

            You’re telling me that you can’t vent and dissipate 50 kW of heat in a large warehouse? If so, you are wrong.

            I’ll debunk it for you right here on the spot.

            Let’s imagine we were trying to heat the warehouse. What size heater do we need? Here’s a handy link: How to Size a Space heater:
            http://www.overstock.com/guides/how-to-size-a-space-heater

            The guideline is 10 W per square foot.

            OK so how big is the warehouse? It’s about 5,000 square feet:
            http://www.e-catworld.com/2016/04/29/photos-of-1mw-plant-address/#comment-2650669053

            OK so we need…. wait for it… a 50 kW space heater for that area.

            But wait there’s more!

            That’s what we would need if we were actively trying to heat an enclosed, normal living area. The guide warns that if you have high ceilings or cement floors you’re going to need significantly more heat. Turns out the Earth is a wonderful heat sink.

            And oh yeah, they weren’t enclosing the warehouse to keep the heat in. They wanted the opposite — to vent the heat to the atmosphere (another wonderful heat sink) and keep the warehouse at a reasonable temperature. Heat rises to ceiling, heat escapes through ceiling vents. Heat does not broil engineers. Simple.

            And you know what, if it ever got a little too hot in there all they had to do was pop open a loading bay door or two and the temperature would quickly settle at just a little over environmental temperature.

            So the too much heat to deal with argument is DEBUNKED by this simple common sense analysis.

            DEBUNKED.

            DEBUNKED.

            DEBUNKED.

            So stop saying it Alain, and consider putting less faith in anybody trying to convince you of it.

          • endothermic process like baking bread, consume a small part of the heat… all else is dissipated.

            this have been discussed long ago… maybe not here.

            anyway I don’t need that, just ejecting IH investigators from the client space is enough to me.

            I was very happy of that test… and when I heard , from rossi himself that fact… it was enough.
            when he did not correct lugano himself, it was alredy too much that I should not have accepted.

            rest is not so proven but clearly coherent.
            Do you realize that you claim Jed is not honest, that Dewey and Darden are losing billions of opportinuti just to save 90Mn$?

            just read everybody’s CV, not about morality (anyway it works too), but with past competences and way to manage business.

            frightening how all is simple and coherent today…

          • SG

            And you explain the isotopic shifts how? The tried and true allegation of slight of hand / magician Rossi?

          • Omega Z

            Fud ALERT…. Fud ALERT

            @Pweet, ->”and he did this by previously melting down a reactor on the first dummy run, or control run.”

            They used (1 and only 1 Reactor) for both the dummy run and the charged run And there was no reactor melt down at the Lugano test.

            There was however a Reactor melt down that took place more then a year previous in Ferrara, Italy. That pertained to the stainless steel 3.5KW Hot cat. Any Idea how much energy it takes to melt, liquefy, and vaporize stainless steel and ceramics in less then 10 seconds.

            Even if the Mains were capable of carrying that much energy in that time frame(Likely Not), Everything between the mains and Rossi’s controller and beyond were not. It all would have been destroyed. The evidence is that amount of energy could only come from the Rossi effect.

            As to the contract signing. A COP=1 or 1.1 at Lugano would not matter. The contract signing came more then a year before the Lugano test. Perhaps you are also just as unaware that the Lugano Dog Bone reactor was built by and shipped to the Lugano test team by Industrial heat and their people. Not Rossi.

        • HS61AF91

          This reminds me of the old saying, if you believe that something you do will fail, it will fail, guaranteed. Chill out a little, P, and try to regain some perspective of the optimistic side of life. You’ll happily be in line with the rest of us to get your own eCat of whatever iteration.

    • Approximately 15 months later, after months of further testing (including of the emerging HotCat models), he signed a $100M agreement to license his IP and develop a prototype plant, to be the final hurdle — a necessary long term test — before production of 1 MW plants for the general market.

      The contractually necessary 1 MW plant test did not get underway until 2015. To whom do you ascribe the delay? To the guy who gets $89M when it’s done or to the guys who have to pay $89M when it’s done.

    • Jarea

      Hahaha good to remember that 🙁

  • HS61AF91

    I theorize DoD already has working LENR-type energy generation. Not conspiracy, only it feels right to me alone (a hunch). Damn shame so much suffering continues in this world, when such ‘secrets’ get shoved into the back shelf. That’s why Dr. Rossi so inspires, he’s about as open as possible in this conspiratorial world, and he will succeed, because persistence does not quit.

    • Steve Savage

      I agree completely, it would be almost impossible to believe, given the huge potential of this technology, that the DoD does not have one or more “Dark” projects investigating LENR.

      • cashmemorz

        So the governments order to get a report about LENR this fall, 2016 would deny anything of government involvement in LENR. This makes me dizzy for some reason.

      • Engineer48

        Hi Steve,

        An engineering friend, who I trust, told me NASA has 2 groups working on LENR. With 1st application LENR heating of traditional cold gas thrusters.

        He also recently told me he knew of US gov labs that had confirmed direct DC generation from Rossi type LENR reactors.

  • Jarea

    Really Christina? Are you a survivalist waiting for the armageddon?. Please, be more optimist.
    ECAT is here for the progress of humanity not only for the survival of few

    • cashmemorz

      Do not discourage pessimists, of that type at least. They will be amongst the first to line up and pay extra for their own imagined protection. The extra money will help in furthering the development of the E-Cat and LENR in general.

      • Omega Z

        Nature provides it’s own EMP’s from time to time.
        No one can protect the masses against this but the masses themselves.

        • Pweet

          Yes you’re right. And we are overdue for a big one.
          They have always happened on a regular basis but when our top technology was lighting by candles and oil lamps, they had little effect on anything. All that has changed in the last hundred years and now we are almost totally dependent on electricity and more critically, electronics. One big electromagnetic pulse from space will wreck all that. The last big one was about 150 years ago now, Another one of the same size could wreck the world economy for years.
          So far, there is pretty much nothing we can do about it.
          Even if Rossi’s ecat was real it wouldn’t help much, and I don’t believe it is real so it will help even less.

          • cashmemorz

            It is very strange that engineers and inventors who know about replacement for electronics are not doing anything about it. Its fluidics. It was being developed in the 1960’s. At that tIme I was with a company that made piping parts and systems for the aerospace industry. Among the parts they made were for backup systems for military aircraft. These systems could do what the electronics at that time did. The microelectronics such as transisitors overtook that analogue version of control. But the point is it worked then so a different system not based on electricity of any kind was available then so why is it not used now..

          • Pweet

            It’s still being worked on and there is progress, but the progress in microelectronics has been so rapid and cheap that it has left fluidics far behind. It’s a matter of getting the best performance from the smallest size and power consumption at an acceptable reliability, and so far, that has been achieved by microelectronics. The power consumption of the latest microelectronics is now incredibly low for what used to be an unbelievable level of computing power and reliability. And it’s still improving.

  • Andy Kumar

    Further down in this thread, Ophelia posted tangled web of companies set up by Rossi lawyer. Most die-hard believers are not taking notice. I think Ophelia’s post deserves to be elevated to its own separate thread.
    .
    So guys what do you think of the tangled web. In your view, does it add or subtract from Rossi’s credibility. It is a trick question. You can not subtract from zero. We are working with positive (F7) numbers only, no F9 allowed!

    • We already knew this information is why there’s a big yawn.

      Rossi’s lawyer has helped a number of people set up companies. Ooooooh.

      • Andy Kumar

        A lawyer helping setup a company is one thing, being an active officer/ president of the “customer” is another. Takes certain color blindness not to see “fishy” written all over in red dots.

        • Omega Z

          Fishy just because a client wants to stay anonymous. Really.
          I too would have preferred to remain anonymous. This document has been all over the internet. The client would have taken a serious thrashing if their identity were disclosed. There is history of people being bashed for any LENR connections. Even NASA takes a lot of heat.

          • Pweet

            If the company (supposed to be JM Chemicals) wanted to stay anonymous, isn’t it a bit strange that they set up the shelf company in the name of JM Chemicals, and then put a JM emblem on the door of the ‘factory’ doing the anonymous work? Why not do it all in their own name, which they seem to have used anyway?
            Why set up a sham company in the same name as the company supposedly wanting to remain anonymous, but with some totally unrelated person at the helm?
            How strange does this setup have to get before people realize the more likely reality is that it is all done specifically for the purpose of creating a false belief that a real ‘customer’ is doing real work in a real factory, but in fact is doing nothing but create an illusion?

          • You’re a little confused, Pweet. There has been speculation that the UK company is Johnson Matthey due to the initials and the fact that they produce metal sponges. Rossi flatly denied that though and nobody has been able to come up with any significant evidence.

            We don’t know who the anonymous UK company is.

          • psi2u2

            Right. And that hardly seems surprising under the circumstances and given the stakes.

          • Pweet

            Oh,.. ok I am confused then. I understood from all the chatter that it had been concluded the parent company really was the Johnson Matthey Chemical Products in the UK. If it is accepted that they are probably not then I don’t have a problem with it, because that is consistent with my belief, except that it still looks like the USA ‘JM Chemical Products’ name was specifically chosen to give the impression that the parent company was in fact the real chemical processor, Johnson Matthey Chemicals in the UK.
            This is then actually consistent with my belief that the UK parent company is some other insignificant shelf company set up by someone specifically to propagate the reality of the ecat, falsely I believe. Someone like Hydrofusion for instance, also a UK company who does little real production of anything and having no apparent facilities anywhere other than an internet presence. That would then allow the statement that none of the Rossi group had any ownership interests in the ‘parent company’. But gee, they certainly have a common goal, which is probably just as important.
            And yes, I know, all this is just speculation, but I think it fits the situation pretty well. We shall see.

          • wpj

            The only way that we know about the “chemicals” part is through the court documents. The name was changed for public consumption to “JM Products Corp”.

            This is documented from over a year ago when someone guessed/deduced where the test was going on.

          • It is unknown but they remain my prime suspect due to circumstantial evidence.

            Ask yourself this: if you were scam-version Rossi and you needed a fake customer to make your plant seem real, why would you make it one from the UK and how do you set it up so you or anyone in your circle has no ownership in it?

          • Omega Z

            Your post goes beyond speculation straight to the land of FUD.

            Hydrofusion is more then a licensee and an actual part of the Rossi group(Leonardo). Thus this statement is clearly wrong-

            ->”That would then allow the statement that none of the Rossi group had any ownership interests in the ‘parent company'”

          • psi2u2

            The more likely reality by far, it seems to me at this stage, is that the parent Company preferred neither to confirm nor deny that it is the parent company, for all of the reasons that have been stated above, which is exactly what it did. There is no conspiracy visible.

        • According to the filed legal docs there is a UK entity involved in which Rossi and co. have no ownership interest.

          We’re told it was a test for them as well (that indicates big enough to take a flyer on a long shot). We’re told the connection happened through Rossi’s lawyer and that the shell company was set up to protect their identity.

          So we know something or somebody in the UK was involved in the test and that they are independent, ownership-wise. We think that they are sizable. We suspect Johnson Matthey despite the denials because it fits so well. We await verification that they were pleased with the test and have ordered 3 more plants.

          • wpj

            My belief that it is JM is because people were told (from Mats Lewan) that they were making sponge metal catalysts. Sponge Metal is a registered trademark of JM (my ex-colleague who worked with JM went mad at me when I called them “Raney” catalysts- a trademark of a competitor. ALL of the JM people had to call them sponge metal catalysts by order!)

          • The connections are tenuous but numerous. There is also Johnson Matthey’s involvement in Cold Fusion back when it first broke in the late 80’s, plus providing nickel powder.

            I think they’re even money or better to be the company behind the wall.

            They would also want more plants as they pay for themselves in short order and would almost certainly want to partner with Leonardo if ABB didn’t beat them to it.

      • SG

        That is a common exercise by lawyers, and quite frequently to hide the true ownership of a company for various legal reasons.

    • Engineer48

      Hi Andy,

      Any other work the lawyer did is not related to this document which is part of the complaint that has been sworn to before the courts. BTW setting up companies is what some lawyers do to make a living.

      Please read the last sentence in this sworn statement and stop making silly statements that reduce your credibility.
      .
      https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/a8e43a17f9f6c541994a38560e46781a05e88738a6d91a598487424d108b3e4b.jpg

      • Andy Kumar

        Green, still hanging on to straws?

        • psi2u2

          Straws? Someday one of those straws is going to break the camel’s back, and if I had to bet whose it would be I’d be as likely to pick Engineer 48 as anyone.

    • Omega Z

      Andy,

      No detraction for many as the connections Ophelia posted about the Attorney Henry Johnson was known several years ago. So very old news.

  • We already knew this information is why there’s a big yawn.

    Rossi’s lawyer has helped a number of people set up companies. Ooooooh.

    • SG

      That is a common exercise by lawyers, and quite frequently to hide the true ownership of a company for various legal reasons.

  • artefact

    On JONP:

    “Frank Acland July 3, 2016 at 12:42 PM
    Dear Andrea Rossi:
    There are some accusations apparently coming from the IH group regarding the 1 MW plant test.
    a) The flow meter used in the test was not fit for purpose
    b) 1 MW plant did not have the required legal authorizations to work
    c) JM Products did not have any employees
    d) IH had proposed another customer to you, but you refused them
    e) JM did not use the heat you produced in any manufacturing process, and the only heat supplied by your plant was 20kW, not 1MW
    Can you respond to any of these points?
    Thank you, Frank Acland

    Andrea Rossi July 3, 2016 at 2:03 PM
    Frank Acland:
    Independently from who is the imbecile that wrote such things, please
    find hereunder my answers, confined within the limits allowed not to
    touch issues that have to be discussed exclusively in Court, with due
    evidence.
    a) The flowmeter used in the test is property of the ERV. The ERV has
    chosen that instrument based on his experience. It is, by the way, a
    very common flowmeter, that everybody can buy, even if it is quite
    expensive. The flowmeter has been certified and after the test the ERV
    has retrieved it and sent it to make a certification of its margin of
    error after the test of 1 year, specifically with a flow of water with
    the same temperature and the same flows of water that we had during the
    test, minimum, maximum, average. So the ERV told us he was going to do
    when he retrieved his flowmeter after the shut down of the plant at the
    end of the test.
    PLEASE DO NOT FORGET THAT:
    The ERV is a nuclear engineer, with experience of nuclear power plants and certification+validation of plants
    b) Obviously it is false, otherwise the plant would have been closed after the inspections
    c) False
    d) Tragicomic: Leonardo Corporation delivered, as per contract, the
    plant on August 2013, and we were ready to start immediately the test,
    as a continuation of the preliminar test made in Ferrara two months
    before with IH. IH had 1 year of time to start the 1 year test, but they
    always delayed with the excuse that they did not have the authorization
    from the Healthcare Office of North Carolina, due to the fact that
    there was the “nuclear reactions” issue. I have been able to get such
    permission in Florida and therefore I proposed the Customer, that has
    been accepted by IH. Evidence of it is the contract that IH made with
    JM. Since the plant was property of IH and it was in the factory of IH,
    obviously they could choose the Customer they wanted, if they had one.
    e) When you have not the burden to give evidence of what you say, you
    can say every stupidity. This is exactly the case. Anyway, what counts
    related to the contract is the energy produced by the 1 MW E-Cat, and
    such energy gets evidence from the report of the ERV.
    Warm Regards, A.R.”

    • Logical consequences of a flow meter being off by a factor of 50:

      * Customer gets 20 kW instead of 1 MW and cannot perform tasks. Customer must be aware of this. Hence customer cannot be “real” and is part of the fraud.

      * Rossi must be able to control things just right such that the flow meter provides the valid-looking numbers but at 1/50 the actual flow rate. He must be able to do this 24/7 even while not on site and all the while maintaining coherency with pressure and temperature reading.

      * Penon installing a flow meter with a massive vulnerability and overlooking any data inconsistencies in order to sign off on the ERV report.

      * Fabiani and West unaware of any operational issues all the while, despite a small fraction of liquid moving through the system than it was designed for.

      * Industrial Heat signed off on a test protocol that included the inadequate flow meter without doing adequate homework.

      • Karl Venter

        HI Lenr

        You forgot that Woodford did a 2.5 year due dillegence and they missed a 1/50 flow meter – I would like to deal with woodford?

        • Julio Ruben Vazquez Turnes

          It is too easy to make false accusations when you dont have to prove them.

          So, IH believers, here you have something hard to argue against.

          IH signed in the contract that they would cooperate to try to get the best results in the test.
          They didnt raise a single objection during a whole year about the measurements. If they had found something they should have raised objection about them and try to fix them as part of the contract.
          So, after a whole year with their employes checking, then suddenly all was wrong. And we have to believe that?

          It seems the bad measurement is related to a 89M payment.

          • Pweet

            How does anyone know that IH never raised any objection in the whole year of the test? or any other period for that matter?
            If that knowledge is only on the basis of what the person who is trying to get another 89 million dollars out of his previous marvelous and all powerful partner, then I would be very careful of taking that statement at face value. It might be right, but it might equally be wrong.
            The fact that Mr Rossi is still continuing to post so much against the interests of IH on his blog, in spite of the fact he is also constantly saying he cannot make any comment on things to be dealt with in the court case, should send a clear signal not to believe everything we read there.
            I think it would be much smarter to take the advice of IH when they earlier warned not to take the announcements of others as fact until verified by them. That has proven to be good advice then, and I think it still applies now.

          • Gerard McEk

            True, that’s was what AR says. Time will tell if he told the truth!

          • Julio Ruben Vazquez Turnes

            I wont lose any more time answering people like you who dont post arguments and make endless loops.
            I stated facts, you can check my other posts. We have proofs of a lot of things. You can believe what you want but dont try to confuse people.
            End.

          • Omega Z

            ->”The fact that Mr Rossi is still continuing to post so much against the interests of IH ”

            No, Rossi says very little besides no comment to what others post on JONP.

        • Woodford did claim due diligence, but we don’t know exactly what that means. We’d like to think it means they hired some engineers to kick the tires but I suspect in the end all it would amount to is trusting Industrial Heat’s engineers and officers.

  • artefact

    On JONP:

    “Frank Acland July 3, 2016 at 12:42 PM
    Dear Andrea Rossi:
    There are some accusations apparently coming from the IH group regarding the 1 MW plant test.
    a) The flow meter used in the test was not fit for purpose
    b) 1 MW plant did not have the required legal authorizations to work
    c) JM Products did not have any employees
    d) IH had proposed another customer to you, but you refused them
    e) JM did not use the heat you produced in any manufacturing process, and the only heat supplied by your plant was 20kW, not 1MW
    Can you respond to any of these points?
    Thank you, Frank Acland

    Andrea Rossi July 3, 2016 at 2:03 PM
    Frank Acland:
    Independently from who is the imbecile that wrote such things, please
    find hereunder my answers, confined within the limits allowed not to
    touch issues that have to be discussed exclusively in Court, with due
    evidence.
    a) The flowmeter used in the test is property of the ERV. The ERV has
    chosen that instrument based on his experience. It is, by the way, a
    very common flowmeter, that everybody can buy, even if it is quite
    expensive. The flowmeter has been certified and after the test the ERV
    has retrieved it and sent it to make a certification of its margin of
    error after the test of 1 year, specifically with a flow of water with
    the same temperature and the same flows of water that we had during the
    test, minimum, maximum, average. So the ERV told us he was going to do
    when he retrieved his flowmeter after the shut down of the plant at the
    end of the test.
    PLEASE DO NOT FORGET THAT:
    The ERV is a nuclear engineer, with experience of nuclear power plants and certification+validation of plants
    b) Obviously it is false, otherwise the plant would have been closed after the inspections
    c) False
    d) Tragicomic: Leonardo Corporation delivered, as per contract, the
    plant on August 2013, and we were ready to start immediately the test,
    as a continuation of the preliminar test made in Ferrara two months
    before with IH. IH had 1 year of time to start the 1 year test, but they
    always delayed with the excuse that they did not have the authorization
    from the Healthcare Office of North Carolina, due to the fact that
    there was the “nuclear reactions” issue. I have been able to get such
    permission in Florida and therefore I proposed the Customer, that has
    been accepted by IH. Evidence of it is the contract that IH made with
    JM. Since the plant was property of IH and it was in the factory of IH,
    obviously they could choose the Customer they wanted, if they had one.
    e) When you have not the burden to give evidence of what you say, you
    can say every stupidity. This is exactly the case. Anyway, what counts
    related to the contract is the energy produced by the 1 MW E-Cat, and
    such energy gets evidence from the report of the ERV.
    Warm Regards, A.R.”

    • Logical consequences of a flow meter being off by a factor of 50:

      * Customer gets 20 kW instead of 1 MW and cannot perform tasks. Customer must be aware of this. Hence customer cannot be “real” and is part of the fraud.

      * Rossi must be able to control things just right such that the flow meter provides the valid-looking numbers but at 1/50 the actual flow rate. He must be able to do this 24/7 even while not on site and all the while maintaining coherency with pressure and temperature reading.

      * Penon installing a flow meter with a massive vulnerability and overlooking any data inconsistencies in order to sign off on the ERV report.

      * Fabiani and West unaware of any operational issues all the while, despite a small fraction of liquid moving through the system than it was designed for.

      * Industrial Heat signed off on a test protocol that included the inadequate flow meter without doing adequate homework.

      • Karl Venter

        HI Lenr

        You forgot that Woodford did a 2.5 year due dillegence and they missed a 1/50 flow meter – I would like to deal with woodford?

        • Julio Ruben Vazquez Turnes

          It is too easy to make false accusations when you dont have to prove them.

          So, IH believers, here you have something hard to argue against.

          IH signed in the contract that they would cooperate to try to get the best results in the test.
          They didnt raise a single objection during a whole year about the measurements. If they had found something they should have raised objection about them and try to fix them as part of the contract.
          So, after a whole year with their employes checking, then suddenly all was wrong. And we have to believe that?

          It seems the bad measurement is related to a 89M payment.

          • Pweet

            How does anyone know that IH never raised any objection in the whole year of the test? or any other period for that matter?
            If that knowledge is only on the basis of what the person who is trying to get another 89 million dollars out of his previous marvelous and all powerful partner, then I would be very careful of taking that statement at face value. It might be right, but it might equally be wrong.
            The fact that Mr Rossi is still continuing to post so much against the interests of IH on his blog, in spite of the fact he is also constantly saying he cannot make any comment on things to be dealt with in the court case, should send a clear signal not to believe everything we read there.
            I think it would be much smarter to take the advice of IH when they earlier warned not to take the announcements of others as fact until verified by them. That has proven to be good advice then, and I think it still applies now.

          • Gerard McEk

            True, that’s was what AR says. Time will tell if he told the truth!

          • Julio Ruben Vazquez Turnes

            I wont lose any more time answering people like you who dont post arguments and make endless loops.
            I stated facts, you can check my other posts. We have proofs of a lot of things. You can believe what you want but dont try to confuse people.
            End.

          • Omega Z

            ->”The fact that Mr Rossi is still continuing to post so much against the interests of IH ”

            No, Rossi says very little besides no comment to what others post on JONP.

        • Woodford did claim due diligence, but we don’t know exactly what that means. We’d like to think it means they hired some engineers to kick the tires but I suspect in the end all it would amount to is trusting Industrial Heat’s engineers and officers.

      • roseland67

        G,

        Typically, don’t flow meters have to be sized for a specific pipe diameter, fluid type and generic flow range?
        It would seem to me very difficult to mistakenly apply a flow meter by a factor of 50, no?

        • I’ve long ago completely dismissed unintentional measurement errors as the possible explanation for where we are now.

          Either it works or there’s a massive conspiracy to commit fraud in motion by fraudsters who like to go to court.

          • Pweet

            I don’t think either side would like to go to court. The legal action is just a final tactic to either get a large payment (unlikely) or to exit the partnership in a manner which places the previously new and all powerful and marvelous partner in the worst light possible so as to justify them being dumped. Mr Rossi must have this look like he dumped IH rather than the other way round, which is why he has revoked their license to the IP. In reality,IH had the first right to dump because they claim they could not substantiate the results of Mr Rossi. Rossi was obliged under the terms of the contract to supply all that was necesary for them to do this. In spite of this, they apparently could not reproduce a working reactor to achieve this. (they say)
            That being the case, the only conclusion can be that either the device does not work, or Mr Rossi has refused to transfer all the ip necessary to make it work. Either way, Rossi has not complied with the terms of the agreement and thus should either provide the information and assistance to make it work, or repay the money paid by IH.
            All this latest rubbish about refusing to make the final payment is long after the contract was made void by Rossi’s inability or refusal to assist IH in getting a product to work as claimed. The only thing which would negate this would be if IH failed to let Mr Rossi know they could not get anything to work, but I find that unlikely.

            I suppose this would be similar to buying a car and them after a year of not being able to get the car to work, refuse to make any more payments. The seller would have a hard job to justify forcing more payments if it could be proven that you could never get the car to work. However, if you never made mention of the fact you could not get the car to work then the seller would have a case for further payment. Would anyone believe that you never mentioned you could not get the car to work in two years? I don’t think so, specially if it cost you eleven million dollars.

          • It’s interesting to explore the ramifications of what you assume about the IP never being transferred.

            On July 8, 2013, Rossi said this:
            “The past three days have been holidays for most, but for us have been a tremendous period of work during which we made a historic page for what concerns our tech: for the first time, an E-Cat module, entirely produced by our USA Partner in the new factory ( a magnificence), charged with the charge made by the Partner’s CEO, using the materials we teached to buy, prepare,manipulate, treat, to make the charges, assembled , insulated, has started its operation, and the results are the same of the E-Cats built by us. This event means that for the first time an E-Cat not built by me, not controlled by me and not charged by me, not tested in my factory, but manufactured from third parties upon our instructions and know how has worked properly. This is the first unit of the plant that will give to the factory of our USA Partner all its necessary thermal energy, and is also the school ship for the employees. It is very important that it has been completely made by the Customer, not by me: it is the first of millions, but the first is always special. We celebrated with Coca Cola ( alcohol is forbidden in that factory). All the former plants, even if built in the USA, had been supplied with reactors cores made by me, so this is a very important step.”

            (emphasis added)

            So I hear you scoff already, pfft just another Rossi-says.

            Ah but is it? It’s a Rossi-says directly about Darden making an E-Cat from scratch with positive results. It’s a Rossi-says that Darden certainly would have seen. If an outright fabrication, it would have jeopardized everything for Rossi… therefore we must conclude that it is likely true, as many of the things he says turn out to be.

            So maybe the assertion that the IP was never transferred is incorrect and we should look for other explanations for current events.

          • Yup. Darden has never publicly called “BS!” on that well known/well distributed Rossi quote.

          • Pweet

            Except IH has since said not to take as fact any announcement by other parties unless it is verified by IH. I know that was some time after the above announcement but it falls into the same category of not taking everything Mr Rossi says as fact. Keep in mind that all along, IH made almost no public comment about anything, so it’s hardly likely they would have made public comment about this, be it true or false.

            It’s also possible they said nothing because at that early stage they either still believed it could work, or more probably, Mr Rossi ‘supervised’ the test and as we all should know by now, when Mr Rossi supervises a test, it appears to work very well.
            However, they will have to explain how that announcement could go unchallenged at the time because on face value, it does contradict their statement that they never managed to substantiate the claims of Rossi. But my guess is, the test was conducted by Mr Rossi and on that basis, it appeared to work. It probably still would because on the most recent test, it showed a COP of 50. That result indicates how good it can work when ‘supervised’ day and night.

          • A public statement is not what’s at issue here, Pweet. There would have been a conversation of the WTF variety between Darden and Rossi if Rossi’s statement was fabricated. Keep in mind that even in the scam scenario, Rossi is not trying to fool us; he’d be trying to coax Darden et. al. to part with more and more of their money after they signed in October 2012.

            Your scenario would be the equivalent of a fisherman letting the big one off his hook just so he could try a new lure.

          • cashmemorz

            As far as I know IH/Darden have not said anything after their announcement “to not take any announcements unless it comes from IH”. If IH actually has not made any more statements, public or on this forum, regarding developments in the E-Cat saga, then how can IH expect any one to listen to them. How long can anyone wait for them to say anything more. Taking into account what is known, IH does not have anything to say for themselves or more likely what IH can say is held back so as not to say too much before the court proceedings allow that into the public.

            Michael W Wolf (in reply to LuFong • 4 days ago below):

            “Yea, but without convinced people, there will be no certification.”

            Maybe the next logical step is just to wait for certification, after key individuals or organizations in that area become convinced that the E-Cat works and does so reasonably safely, the radiation part covered by intense scrutiny.

          • Obvious

            IH would make just over 1/3 of a million dollars by allowing the test to continue. As long as they were not paying for the shortfall to the customer, Why would they want to inferefere?

          • Engineer48

            Hi Obvious,

            Yup. IH collected $350, 000 from a test they now claim can’t be “Substantiated”.

          • Obvious

            Probably covered IH’s share of Penon, West, and Fabiani’s fees, with some cash to spare. Maybe the other un-named helpers too. What luck!

          • wpj

            Well said! (Or written)

          • Obvious

            Which version did they build together?
            What if this was the first of the Lugano style?
            It would be interesting to know. The black cylinder version seems to be less of a problem (to me) to get good measurements from.
            What factory were they in? Almost any real factory would not allow alcohol consumption inside, no surprise there. The IH warehouse doesn’t seem to fit the description of a factory, though.

  • Mats002

    We know since before that India takes LENR seriously, now this:

    “There are disruptive technologies like Big Data, Artificial Intelligence, Internet of Things, Nanotechnology, Biotechnology etc. that have already displaced existing ones. Cold fusion is becoming a reality and 3-D printing has revolutionised manufacturing technology,’’ Dr. Saraswat said as he addressed students at the Graduation Day celebrations in RVR & JC College of Engineering here on Saturday.

    “Cold fusion is becoming a reality”

    http://m.thehindu.com/news/national/andhra-pradesh/invest-in-future-technologies-says-former-drdo-chief/article8802598.ece

    With thanks to AlainCo who found it first.

    • HS61AF91

      Like I said sometime ago, Russia, China, India are leading examples of governments forging ahead, openly, with LENR. On behalf of a minute fractal of humanity (me) Many Thanks y’all!

      • cashmemorz

        So let history take care of what happens with LENR. Usage in other parts of the world may force others to join in.

  • Mats002

    We know since before that India takes LENR seriously, now this:

    “There are disruptive technologies like Big Data, Artificial Intelligence, Internet of Things, Nanotechnology, Biotechnology etc. that have already displaced existing ones. Cold fusion is becoming a reality and 3-D printing has revolutionised manufacturing technology,’’ Dr. Saraswat said as he addressed students at the Graduation Day celebrations in RVR & JC College of Engineering here on Saturday.

    “Cold fusion is becoming a reality”

    http://m.thehindu.com/news/national/andhra-pradesh/invest-in-future-technologies-says-former-drdo-chief/article8802598.ece

    With thanks to AlainCo who found it first.

    • HS61AF91

      Like I said sometime ago, Russia, China, India are leading examples of governments forging ahead, openly, with LENR. On behalf of a minute fractal of humanity (me) Many Thanks y’all!

      • cashmemorz

        So let history take care of what happens with LENR. Usage in other parts of the world may force others to join in.

  • Engineer48

    Hi Andy,

    Any other work the lawyer did is not related to this document which is part of the complaint that has been sworn to before the courts. BTW setting up companies is what some lawyers do to make a living.

    Please read the last sentence in this sworn statement and stop making silly statements that reduce your credibility.
    .
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/a8e43a17f9f6c541994a38560e46781a05e88738a6d91a598487424d108b3e4b.jpg

  • Alan DeAngelis

    First in flight with LENR.

    Assume a small conventional lithium battery could be used to power QuarkXs, how many QuarkXs would it take to get some sort of electric motorized radio controlled model airplane flying (for a very long flight time that could not be attributed to the conventional lithium battery)? http://www.rc-airplane-world.com/watts-per-pound.html

    This would be a FUN way to prove the reality of the technology.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpQUf4OhPaE

    • Alan DeAngelis

      PS
      And get it (or them) ready for a 2017 flight for a press conference after the trial. The way Preston Tucker showed off his “nonexistent” cars after his trial.
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZaS2CCnFYs

  • Alan DeAngelis

    First in flight with LENR.

    Assume a small conventional lithium battery could be used to power QuarkXs, how many QuarkXs would it take to get some sort of electric motorized radio controlled model airplane flying (for a very long flight time that could not be attributed to the conventional lithium battery)? http://www.rc-airplane-world.com/watts-per-pound.html

    This would be a FUN way to prove the reality of the technology.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpQUf4OhPaE

    • Alan DeAngelis

      PS
      And get it (or them) ready for a 2017 flight for a press conference after the trial. The way Preston Tucker showed off his “nonexistent” cars after his trial.
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZaS2CCnFYs

  • SG

    With COP of 50 thermal electric devices or sterling engines make more sense to close the loop than a crappy (or any) steam turbine.

  • LCD

    We are unfortunately starting to see a pattern with Rossi and the people he gets involved with. He has to realize that it is an issue.

    • SG

      As has been pointed out before, inventor/genius types can be very difficult to work with. It takes special people and organizations to bring out the best in them while minimizing the chances of spoiling the party. Obviously, IH failed in bringing out the best in Andrea Rossi, and in fact, have only succeeded in bringing out his enmity. IH should have known about such qualities going in and should have planned for them. In my view, anyone who engages with Mr. Rossi should have at least some kind of track record of assisting his personality type translate into a successful enterprise. If you don’t posses those talents, don’t even try.

      • LCD

        At some point you have to take responsibility for yourself though.

      • Pweet

        re above;-
        “As has been pointed out before, inventor/genius types can be very difficult to work with. It takes special people and organizations to bring out the best in them while minimizing the chances of spoiling the party.”
        Musicians are even worse, but with a little tact and payment of some money, you can usually get a song out of them worth releasing. IH appear to have tried this but to no avail. They were patient for over two years, and probably tried everything except the final dummy spit. They got nothing so finally did the dummy spit. Thus they now refuse to keep paying and for some reason Mr Rossi is surprised.

    • help_lenr

      The only wrong with rossi is that he _has not enough money_, therefore his partners try to exploit him, this is how capitalist world works. I don’t understand the advices which expect rossi to behave like a rich capitalist when he cannot afford that. His partners reflect his lack of money – not his bad judgement.

      • MasterBlaster7

        Truth.

    • Roland

      Tom Darden presents very well, comes with excellent references and apparently has ‘green’ credibility.

      We know the pitch; Wall Street vulture capitalist turns ‘green’ to help the planet, superior people skills, connections to die for, yada yada yada.

      $100 million bucks, which we learn about much, much later.

      Two years on the warts begin to show. Andrea gets ready for battle…

  • LCD

    We are unfortunately starting to see a pattern with Rossi and the people he gets involved with. He has to realize that it is an issue.

    • SG

      As has been pointed out before, inventor/genius types can be very difficult to work with. It takes special people and organizations to bring out the best in them while minimizing the chances of spoiling the party. Obviously, IH failed in bringing out the best in Andrea Rossi, and in fact, have only succeeded in bringing out his enmity. IH should have known about such qualities going in and should have planned for them. In my view, anyone who engages with Mr. Rossi should have at least some kind of track record of assisting his personality type translate into a successful enterprise. If you don’t posses those talents, don’t even try.

      • LCD

        At some point you have to take responsibility for yourself though.

      • Pweet

        re above;-
        “As has been pointed out before, inventor/genius types can be very difficult to work with. It takes special people and organizations to bring out the best in them while minimizing the chances of spoiling the party.”
        Musicians are even worse, but with a little tact and payment of some money, you can usually get a song out of them worth releasing. IH appear to have tried this but to no avail. They were patient for over two years, and probably tried everything except the final dummy spit. They got nothing so finally did the dummy spit. Thus they now refuse to keep paying and for some reason Mr Rossi is surprised.

    • help_lenr

      The only wrong with rossi is that he _has not enough money_, therefore his partners try to exploit him, this is how capitalist world works. I don’t understand the advices which expect rossi to behave like a rich capitalist when he cannot afford that. His partners reflect his lack of money – not his bad judgement.

      • MasterBlaster7

        Truth.

    • Roland

      Tom Darden presents very well, comes with excellent references and apparently has ‘green’ credibility.

      We know the pitch; Wall Street vulture capitalist turns ‘green’ to help the planet, superior people skills, connections to die for, yada yada yada.

      $100 million bucks, which we learn about much, much later.

      Two years on the warts begin to show. Andrea gets ready for battle…

  • Rene

    Yes, of course, if you want to go the market truthout option, which places this years down the line.

  • Omega Z

    Fishy just because a client wants to stay anonymous. Really.
    I too would have preferred to remain anonymous. This document has been all over the internet. The client would have taken a serious thrashing if their identity were disclosed. There is history of people being bashed for any LENR connections. Even NASA takes a lot of heat.

    • Pweet

      If the company (supposed to be JM Chemicals) wanted to stay anonymous, isn’t it a bit strange that they set up the shelf company in the name of JM Chemicals, and then put a JM emblem on the door of the ‘factory’ doing the anonymous work? Why not do it all in their own name, which they seem to have used anyway?
      Why set up a sham company in the same name as the company supposedly wanting to remain anonymous, but with some totally unrelated person at the helm?
      How strange does this setup have to get before people realize the more likely reality is that it is all done specifically for the purpose of creating a false belief that a real ‘customer’ is doing real work in a real factory, but in fact is doing nothing but create an illusion?

      • You’re a little confused, Pweet. There has been speculation that the UK company is Johnson Matthey due to the initials and the fact that they produce metal sponges. Rossi flatly denied that though and nobody has been able to come up with any significant evidence.

        We don’t know who the anonymous UK company is.

        • psi2u2

          Right. And that hardly seems surprising under the circumstances and given the stakes.

        • Pweet

          Oh,.. ok I am confused then. I understood from all the chatter that it had been concluded the parent company really was the Johnson Matthey Chemical Products in the UK. If it is accepted that they are probably not then I don’t have a problem with it, because that is consistent with my belief, except that it still looks like the USA ‘JM Chemical Products’ name was specifically chosen to give the impression that the parent company was in fact the real chemical processor, Johnson Matthey Chemicals in the UK.
          This is then actually consistent with my belief that the UK parent company is some other insignificant shelf company set up by someone specifically to propagate the reality of the ecat, falsely I believe. Someone like Hydrofusion for instance, also a UK company who does little real production of anything and having no apparent facilities anywhere other than an internet presence. That would then allow the statement that none of the Rossi group had any ownership interests in the ‘parent company’. But gee, they certainly have a common goal, which is probably just as important.
          And yes, I know, all this is just speculation, but I think it fits the situation pretty well. We shall see.

          • wpj

            The only way that we know about the “chemicals” part is through the court documents. The name was changed for public consumption to “JM Products Corp”.

            This is documented from over a year ago when someone guessed/deduced where the test was going on.

          • It is unknown but they remain my prime suspect due to circumstantial evidence.

            Ask yourself this: if you were scam-version Rossi and you needed a fake customer to make your plant seem real, why would you make it one from the UK and how do you set it up so you or anyone in your circle has no ownership in it?

          • Omega Z

            Your post goes beyond speculation straight to the land of FUD.

            Hydrofusion is more then a licensee and an actual part of the Rossi group(Leonardo). Thus this statement is clearly wrong-

            ->”That would then allow the statement that none of the Rossi group had any ownership interests in the ‘parent company'”

      • psi2u2

        The more likely reality by far, it seems to me at this stage, is that the parent Company preferred neither to confirm nor deny that it is the parent company, for all of the reasons that have been stated above, which is exactly what it did. There is no conspiracy visible.

  • malkom700

    In the current situation is the most important to appear with a perfect Commercial Product. Whoever to first presenting this product can enter to the history a others did not.

  • malkom700

    In the current situation is the most important to appear with a perfect Commercial Product. Whoever to first presenting this product can enter to the history a others did not.

  • theresaJuneJuly

    You should make ONE working warm water heater and have ONE happy customer in a house in Italy, not paying electricity bills anymore.

    Can you manage that?

    then you invite the local tv news and you try to make 10 happy cutomers.
    If it works, you will be in 5 years time multibillionaire. Guaranteed.

    Instead, we have now flights to USA back and forth,interviews, youtube, blogsites, lawsuits, presidents discussing this, conferences in Stockholm and what not. this takes years and years and no doubt will take many more years..until all of other peoples money is suppered up.

    • psi2u2

      I’m glad that YOU are such an innovative entrepreneur full of good ideas. You must be a genius.

    • help_lenr

      No certrifications yet for domestic ecat, may take years.

      • Pweet

        It has already taken years. They were allegedly submitted for certification in 2011, which is a bit strange because even now, five years later, the picture on the ecat.com web site is still only a 3D simulation of what one might look like. I don’t think you can get a safety certificate based on an artists impression. I suppose that could be why it is taking so long, and until a real one is actually submitted, it will continue to take longer.
        Today, five years later, regarding certification for the smaller low temperature ecat and hot cat, Mr Rossi still reports;- “The certification for the domestic version of both is on course.” This is now an unbelievably long ‘course’ for a low temperature water heater.

        Can someone ask Mr Rossi if working final product has actually been submitted to a regular certification authority for testing, because everything so far indicates it has not been. No problem if it hasn’t been, but there is a problem if he keeps saying it is awaiting certification and one has not yet been submitted.

        • SG

          Apparently the certifying agencies have taken the position that they will not certify domestic versions until an extensive amount of industrial use has been carried out. Seems reasonable, but they can only delay for so long. As soon as there are MFMP replications of me356 type experiments, holding back the dam will become ever more difficult.

          • Pweet

            Where is that information coming from? Is it from Mr Rossi?
            Does anyone have any report of a certification authority rejecting a Rossi ecat? I don’t recollect Mr Rossi claiming one had been rejected. He usually says things like “the certification is on course”.
            I don’t think certification authorities can pick and choose like that, unless of course, the device was sitting on the front counter glowing green with radiation.

          • DrD

            Perhaps this has something to do with it:
            “Andrea Rossi
            July 4, 2016 at 11:59 AM
            Martin Pietsch:
            October 31st: yes, it was the plant that eventually has been tested.
            November 23rd: in fact the 1 MW plants were for sale at the time; about the domestic, I assumed 2 yesrs would have been enough for the safety certification, but I was wrong. My mistake.
            November 28th: yes, we sold it, but later the Customer did not pay the installment that had to be paid at the order. Eventually that same plant has been sold to Industrial Heat.
            There are issues that do not depend on me and would need a cristal ball to be foreseen…besides I am sometimes too optimistic, this is a characteristic of mine…and of every inventor.
            Warm Regards,
            A.R.”

          • Roland

            Every technology that requires supervision by professional engineers is ipso facto an industrial product, you can’t, for example, get a permit to build an oil refinery in your basement.

            Every genuinely new technology has been subject to the scrutiny of the insurance industry for decades now, Underwriters Laboratories (UL) is funded by the insurance companies for the specific purpose of determining whether a particular device is insurable; claims can be, and are, denied based on the mere presence of an uncertified device under what the insurer will deem ‘suspicious’ circumstances.

            If the use of the uncertified device leads to an insurance claim, and that is discovered by the insurance company, fraud charges can be laid in addition to the denial of coverage.

            Do insurance companies want to see unknown technologies tested in an industrial setting, where they will and do insure, before the average householder gets to try dismantling it in the garage?

            Yup.

            One of the appealing attributes of Engineer 48’s Remote Area Disaster Response design is that it will not require domestic certification…

          • Interesting point. Presumably the only permission required would be that of the government of the stricken area in which such a device would be deployed.

            Edit: .. and the willingness of a supervising NGO such as Médecins Sans Frontières or International Rescue Committee to transport and operate them.

            Any industrial deployment of the ‘MkII’ (Quark) technology is probably years away, so this kind of usage could provide an alternative means of generating logged data proving safety, which could feed into a certification scheme.

            The downside from Rossi’s POV would be that the units would be relatively unguarded, and located in often lawless areas, and I don’t think the idea is a ‘goer’ due to this aspect.

          • Roland

            I’ve raised the need for a social covenant covering the broad array of issues that arise the moment the deployment of an engineered device is seriously considered.

            In addition to the direct security concerns that Leonardo will have regarding the Quark IP, which will shift over time, there is the matters of: the physical security of the whole device on behalf of the beneficial owners, an equitable economic framework within the village so that the benefits accrue to all, a body of law designed to repel external predation and preserve internal harmony of a civilized village, a commitment to education for all, the nurture of reverence for the local ecology and traditions of service to the greater good.

            There are existing organizations, and even funding, that are accessible to give the initiative scale; the security concerns are addressable, time and patents will solve the IP issues, however getting social license to uplift the poor and provide for their security will prove very challenging in some jurisdictions.

            On the other hand earlier iterations designed for disaster relief can be engineered to be tamper proof to secure the IP. In this application highly reliable functionality should lead to rapid approvals for emergency use in most situations.

            The branding implications are interesting.

          • Fedir Mykhaylov

            Certification of domestic installations would be possible only after a long successful operation of industrial plants. In order not to happen in Brazil – luminous powder rubbed on the masquerade, and the powder was a write-off of a cobalt gun

          • cashmemorz

            Antarctica is not presumably, lawless and under strict control of who, and when anyone does get to go there. In fact it is mostly overrun with scientists, engineers and the like, who do research, weather related work. Some of those guys would welcome a chance to do long term testing and implementation on something like the E-Cat. And as law abiding research dedicated individuals the chances of them reverse engineering, stealing IP are much less then the average population. And heat in their environment comes at a premium. Same for other locals like Martian simulation environments NASA is using in deserts. Submitting a unit under tight control is not so difficult with some of these people may be what Rossi has been doing without publicizing. Therein may lie reasons for apparent delay. He may be waiting for results from such tester/users as we write. Main problem with those people is their mainstream mentality. They probably would want the existing ERV report and court results before even considering that something like cold fusion might work. Also the publicity about that would look bad on them

          • TVulgaris

            And practically not a single one of them has the ability to control their funding, nor the necessity of getting their work (pretty much ALL of their work that might involve any money in their budget) approved by their department head(s) and admins. THOSE are the ones (and base admins and those they report to) who would approve any such equipment. How likely do you think research approval would be?

          • cashmemorz

            Finding a locale for use of first E-Cats is turning out to be a bigger challenge than the relatively simple model of “the market”. I wonder what effect the briefing on advances in low-energy nuclear reactions as required by the Secretary of Defense will have on that market.

          • Pweet

            Quote from above;-
            “November 28th: yes, we sold it, but later the Customer did not pay the installment that had to be paid at the order. Eventually that same plant has been sold to Industrial Heat.”
            Mr Rossi forgot to mention, so I better add in;-
            ‘And they didn’t like it either so they also refuse to pay’.
            That 1MW plant is certainly finding it hard to secure a new owner who is happy to pay for it. I wonder if it might be the color?
            It shouldn’t be the specifications because the ERV report shows a COP of up to 50. Even I would be interested in buying that, providing it’s true of course.

          • Blue, usually – Cherenkov radiation. Green glow is Kryptonite.

  • HS61AF91

    Howdy Rose, wait no longer, google “Invention Secrecy Act of 1951” and acquaint yourself with the inertia of ‘status quo’ governmental/industrial control. Dr. Rossi adeptly avoids its ensnarement. May his prior run-ins with law enable him to remain free, and when his destiny is eCats everywhere, ‘save the world’.

  • I doubt any are gullible or inept (though the motives of one or two might give me pause).

    However I don’t have an E-Cat to give them. If I did, I would.

  • HS61AF91

    Right on. I too can not think of any reason why Rossi must submit, or quit.

  • Teemu Soilamo

    What the heck is going on with the formatting of those quotes? Can’t make any sense of it.

  • clovis ray

    the Ecat will transform the world, but there is so many things coming out of this discovery,
    It crossed my mind, that if metal’s like copper , nickel,and others have truly been transmuted into,totally different materials, would it not follow that some material could be changed into gold and if so,you would have the goose that laid the golden egg, right, if so then why would you want to reproduce it for the public,so they could have own.
    Then gold would bottom out fast , so if you can figure that one out, the trillion dollar quark x, would be chicken feed.
    I know it has already been done, and it’S too expensive, but with this new information it could be possible, —- makes you think don’t it.

    • SG

      I highly doubt it. But we do at least have a somewhat-similar analogy. Aluminum was once considered a precious metal before a process was discovered to easily extract it from other materials. Now we literally throw aluminum foil away after a single use. It is interesting to imagine a world where gold was abundant.

      • TVulgaris

        You’d be far better off (as in ROI) buying some land along a creek in “gold country” (US Rocky Mountain region, for instance) and setting up an automated gravimetric separation line (hand techniques will generally produce milligrams per day)- a QuarkX would no doubt produce at least picograms per day, perhaps even nanograms, but a very rough estimate would indicate its production expense…

    • oldrolledgold

      First thing I asked him on the JONP was could it produce Gold.(When he first set the site up and was inviting questions).He said ‘no’ but could have been lying or lacking knowledge back then.I’m a Libertarian so favour a gold standard.

    • orsobubu

      the gold transmutation is exactly what is specified here, if true:

      http://bt-isotopes.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Kurashov-V.M.-Sakhno-T.V.-Maksimov-R.G.-%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%8C%D1%8F-%D0%B2-%D0%9A%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B0%D0%B4%D1%83.pdf

      it seems this gold isotope is the stable, commercial, not radioactive one, so it would be indistinguishable frome mined metal, conversely of artificial diamonds which are spotted by spectrography. They cite platinum too, so is it better to sell off and swap for silver??

      • clovis ray

        or NI – SMILE

      • clovis ray

        Thanks,for the link, appreciated .

    • Fedir Mykhaylov

      Do not worry about the gold standard. Alchemists Kurashov Sahno and their bacteria to the transmutation of metals improves the properties of the oil obtained directly from a solid fuel oil.

      • clovis ray

        Hi, guy,
        no worry,
        But i am interested in Kurashov Saho,work, have a good link,
        Sorry to be lazy, i can google him, but i bet you can do better, -smile

        • Fedir Mykhaylov

          Do not be surprised if these bacteria human consumption promises eternal life – this is an analogue of the philosopher’s stone

  • Pweet

    It has already taken years. They were allegedly submitted for certification in 2011, which is a bit strange because even now, five years later, the picture on the ecat.com web site is still only a 3D simulation of what one might look like. I don’t think you can get a safety certificate based on an artists impression. I suppose that could be why it is taking so long, and until a real one is actually submitted, it will continue to take longer.
    Today, five years later, regarding certification for the smaller low temperature ecat and hot cat, Mr Rossi still reports;- “The certification for the domestic version of both is on course.” This is now an unbelievably long ‘course’ for a low temperature water heater.

    Can someone ask Mr Rossi if working final product has actually been submitted to a regular certification authority for testing, because everything so far indicates it has not been. No problem if it hasn’t been, but there is a problem if he keeps saying it is awaiting certification and one has not yet been submitted.

    • SG

      Apparently the certifying agencies have taken the position that they will not certify domestic versions until an extensive amount of industrial use has been carried out. Seems reasonable, but they can only delay for so long. As soon as there are MFMP replications of me356 type experiments, holding back the dam will become ever more difficult.

      • Pweet

        Where is that information coming from? Is it from Mr Rossi?
        Does anyone have any report of a certification authority rejecting a Rossi ecat? I don’t recollect Mr Rossi claiming one had been rejected. He usually says things like “the certification is on course”.
        I don’t think certification authorities can pick and choose like that, unless of course, the device was sitting on the front counter glowing green with radiation.

        • DrD

          Perhaps this has something to do with it:
          “Andrea Rossi
          July 4, 2016 at 11:59 AM
          Martin Pietsch:
          October 31st: yes, it was the plant that eventually has been tested.
          November 23rd: in fact the 1 MW plants were for sale at the time; about the domestic, I assumed 2 yesrs would have been enough for the safety certification, but I was wrong. My mistake.
          November 28th: yes, we sold it, but later the Customer did not pay the installment that had to be paid at the order. Eventually that same plant has been sold to Industrial Heat.
          There are issues that do not depend on me and would need a cristal ball to be foreseen…besides I am sometimes too optimistic, this is a characteristic of mine…and of every inventor.
          Warm Regards,
          A.R.”

          • Roland

            Every technology that requires supervision by professional engineers is ipso facto an industrial product, you can’t, for example, get a permit to build an oil refinery in your basement.

            Every genuinely new technology has been subject to the scrutiny of the insurance industry for decades now, Underwriters Laboratories (UL) is funded by the insurance companies for the specific purpose of determining whether a particular device is insurable; claims can be, and are, denied based on the mere presence of an uncertified device under what the insurer will deem ‘suspicious’ circumstances.

            If the use of the uncertified device leads to an insurance claim, and that is discovered by the insurance company, fraud charges can be laid in addition to the denial of coverage.

            Do insurance companies want to see unknown technologies tested in an industrial setting, where they will and do insure, before the average householder gets to try dismantling it in the garage?

            Yup.

            One of the appealing attributes of Engineer 48’s Remote Area Disaster Response design is that it will not require domestic certification…

          • Interesting point. Presumably the only permission required would be that of the government of the stricken area in which such a device would be deployed.

            Any industrial deployment of the ‘MkII’ (Quark) technology is probably years away, so this kind of usage could provide an alternative means of generating logged data proving safety, which could feed into a certification scheme.

            The downside from Rossi’s POV would be that the units would be relatively unguarded, and located in often lawless areas, and I don’t think the idea is a ‘goer’ due to this aspect.

          • Roland

            I’ve raised the need for a social covenant covering the broad array of issues that arise the moment the deployment of an engineered device is seriously considered.

            In addition to the direct security concerns that Leonardo will have regarding the Quark IP, which will shift over time, there is the matters of: the physical security of the whole device on behalf of the beneficial owners, an equitable economic framework within the village so that the benefits accrue to all, a body of law designed to repel external predation and preserve internal harmony of a civilized village, a commitment to education for all, the nurture of reverence for the local ecology and traditions of service to the greater good.

            There are existing organizations, and even funding, that are accessible to give the initiative scale; the security concerns are addressable, time and patents will solve the IP issues, however getting social license to uplift the poor and provide for their security will prove very challenging in some jurisdictions.

            On the other hand earlier iterations designed for disaster relief can be engineered to be tamper proof to secure the IP. In this application highly reliable functionality should lead to rapid approvals for emergency use in most situations.

            The branding implications are interesting.

          • Fedir Mykhaylov

            Certification of domestic installations would be possible only after a long successful operation of industrial plants. In order not to happen in Brazil – luminous powder rubbed on the masquerade, and the powder was a write-off of a cobalt gun

          • cashmemorz

            Antarctica is not presumably, lawless and under strict control of who, and when anyone does get to go there. In fact it is mostly overrun with scientists, engineers and the like, who do research, weather related work. Some of those guys would welcome a chance to do long term testing and implementation on something like the E-Cat. And as law abiding research dedicated individuals the chances of them reverse engineering, stealing IP are much less then the average population. And heat in their environment comes at a premium. Same for other locals like Martian simulation environments NASA is using in deserts. Submitting a unit under tight control is not so difficult with some of these people may be what Rossi has been doing without publicizing. Therein may lie reasons for apparent delay. He may be waiting for results from such tester/users as we write.

          • TVulgaris

            And practically not a single one of them has the ability to control their funding, nor the necessity of getting their work (pretty much ALL of their work that might involve any money in their budget) approved by their department head(s) and admins. THOSE are the ones (and base admins and those they report to) who would approve any such equipment. How likely do you think research approval would be?

          • cashmemorz

            Finding a locale for use of first E-Cats is turning out to be a bigger challenge than the relatively simple model of “the market”. I wonder what effect the briefing on advances in low-energy nuclear reactions as required by the Secretary of Defense will have on that market.

          • Pweet

            Quote from above;-
            “November 28th: yes, we sold it, but later the Customer did not pay the installment that had to be paid at the order. Eventually that same plant has been sold to Industrial Heat.”
            Mr Rossi forgot to mention, so I better add in;-
            ‘And they didn’t like it either so they also refuse to pay’.
            That 1MW plant is certainly finding it hard to secure a new owner who is happy to pay for it. I wonder if it might be the color?
            It shouldn’t be the specifications because the ERV report shows a COP of up to 50. Even I would be interested in buying that, providing it’s true of course.

        • Blue, usually – Cherenkov radiation. Green glow is Kryptonite.

  • SG

    I highly doubt it. But we do at least have a somewhat-similar analogy. Aluminum was once considered a precious metal before a process was discovered to easily extract it from other materials. Now we literally throw aluminum foil away after a single use. It is interesting to imagine a world where gold was abundant.

    • TVulgaris

      You’d be far better off (as in ROI) buying some land along a creek in “gold country” (US Rocky Mountain region, for instance) and setting up an automated gravimetric separation line (hand techniques will generally produce milligrams per day)- a QuarkX would no doubt produce at least picograms per day, perhaps even nanograms, but a very rough estimate would indicate its production expense…

  • Fedir Mykhaylov

    Do not worry about the gold standard. Alchemists Kurashov Sahno and their bacteria to the transmutation of metals improves the properties of the oil obtained directly from a solid fuel oil.

  • Arve Svendsen

    Did not know where to put it, but needed to show it. So here it goes:

    http://news.newenergytimes.net/2016/05/12/latest-nrl-salvo-attacks-validity-of-mitsubishi-lenr-research/

    • Omega Z

      David Kidwell(NRL) is a person with his VERY strong opinion of what is taking place. Any results that deviates from his view must be mistaken.

      He is not the only LENR supporter who is of this nature.

      • Engineer48

        Hi Omega Z,

        Interesting the claim that contamination in the Japanese lab occured after he visited it and it was clean before plus how his unproven contamination claim was used by the USPTO to deny the Japanese patents.

        • Roland

          Quacks like a duck, waddles like a duck and smells like a duck.

          All the classic signs of an inept intelligence operation; is this the same Navy that ‘can’t’ replicate the early 1990s SPAWAR experiments?

  • Pweet

    Except IH has since said not to take as fact any announcement by other parties unless it is verified by IH. I know that was some time after the above announcement but it falls into the same category of not taking everything Mr Rossi says as fact. Keep in mind that all along, IH made almost no public comment about anything, so it’s hardly likely they would have made public comment about this, be it true or false.

    It’s also possible they said nothing because at that early stage they either still believed it could work, or more probably, Mr Rossi ‘supervised’ the test and as we all should know by now, when Mr Rossi supervises a test, it appears to work very well.
    However, they will have to explain how that announcement could go unchallenged at the time because on face value, it does contradict their statement that they never managed to substantiate the claims of Rossi. But my guess is, the test was conducted by Mr Rossi and on that basis, it appeared to work. It probably still would because on the most recent test, it showed a COP of 50. That result indicates how good it can work when ‘supervised’ day and night.

    • A public statement is not what’s at issue here, Pweet. There would have been a conversation of the WTF variety between Darden and Rossi if Rossi’s statement was fabricated. Keep in mind that even in the scam scenario, Rossi is not trying to fool us; he’d be trying to coax Darden et. al. to part with more and more of their money after they signed in October 2012.

      Your scenario would be the equivalent of a fisherman letting the big one off his hook just so he could try a new lure.

      • cashmemorz

        As far as I know IH/Darden have not said anything after their announcement “to not take any announcements unless it comes from IH”. If IH actually has not made any more statements regarding developments in the E-Cat saga, then how can IH expect any one to listen to them. How long can anyone wait for them to say anything more. Taking into account what is known IH does not have anything to say for themselves or more likely what IH can say is held back so as not to say too much before the court proceedings allow that into the public.

    • Obvious

      IH would make just over 1/3 of a million dollars by allowing the test to continue. As long as they were not paying for the shortfall to the customer, Why would they want to inferefere?

      • Engineer48

        Hi Obvious,

        Yup. IH collected $350, 000 from a test they now claim can’t be “Substantiated”.

        • Obvious

          Probably covered IH’s share of Penon, West, and Fabiani’s fees, with some cash to spare. Maybe the other un-named helpers too. What luck!

  • Omega Z

    ->”There are net metering laws in Florida which means the utilities have to buy back electricity produced by consumers.”

    This only works as long as the Utilities can force your neighbors to buy the excess energy at a premium. Once the neighbor disconnects or refuses to pay the price, it all comes to a halt.

    The only way this could ever work in the long term is,

    #1 Utility buys your excess at wholesale.
    #2 Utility sells back at retail.
    #3 Utility has the ability to refuse excess when demand is less then supply.

    Anything else leaves those who can least afford their utilities paying the highest prices.

  • Fedir Mykhaylov

    Do not be surprised if these bacteria human consumption promises eternal life – this is an analogue of the philosopher’s stone

  • Omega Z

    David Kidwell(NRL) is a person with his VERY strong opinion of what is taking place. Any results that deviates from his view must be mistaken.

    He is not the only LENR supporter who is of this nature.

    • Engineer48

      Hi Omega Z,

      Interesting the claim that contamination in the Japanese lab occured after he visited it and it was clean before plus how his unproven contamination claim was used by the USPTO to deny the Japanese patents.

      • Roland

        Quacks like a duck, waddles like a duck and smells like a duck.

        All the classic signs of an inept intelligence operation; is this the same Navy that ‘can’t’ replicate the early 1990s SPAWAR experiments?

  • Engineer48

    Another interesting comment:

    http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg110889.html

    “I do know, but I have agreed not to discuss details which has not been made public by Rossi or I.H., so I cannot discuss ”

    Agreed with who?

    • Anon2012_2014

      “Agreed with who? [not to discuss trial details]

      Probably with the lawyers from either IH or Leonardo. The trial just went into “discovery” phase, so all connected parties are in a quiet period. This will make it harder to follow what is happening for a period of time. I hope (but don’t know) that the discovery depositions and other evidence will be made public. My recollection from this type of civil proceeding is that it becomes public unless one party’s lawyer files to keep it private, or in certain cases, redacts information from the evidence that is going to the other party’s lawyer or the public.

      I watched a public trial like this (or set of trials) when IBM, Novell, Red Hat, and SCO went after each other. I learned a lot from observing. These trials are kind of interesting, but in the end create a lot of unnecessary entropy for the trial lawyers who are paid to participate. Honestly, it would be better for both parties if they could come to an agreement. However, both parties have to be “ready” and I am fairly sure that Rossi is too angry to agree to a settlement because he thinks he is “right” and wants “justice”. Waste of potential energy.

      • Engineer48

        Hi Anon,

        Which might suggest Jed is an agent of IH?

        • Thomas Kaminski

          Or IH is trying to rein in loose cannons that are hurting their case….

          • Engineer48

            Hi Thomas,

            Which would imply IH have some element of control over those loose cannons.

          • Pweet

            It is normal procedure that information relating to an upcoming court case is not blathered all over the newspapers or internet. It always has been. That does not stop either party from getting advice or instruction from other parties, but in doing so, it is usually the understanding that the other parties do not publish far and wide the matters discussed with them. It’s not a matter of reigning in loose canons or any other hyperbolic descriptions. It’s a matter of common courtesy and normal procedure.
            What Mr Rossi is doing by way of publishing his case and point of view on his web blog is totally not normal procedure. His publication of everything on the internet regarding the case is a good indication that he does not intend to see it be dealt with by the courts.
            The silence of IH is completely normal. They will be talking to whoever they need to talk to in order to help substantiate their side of the argument, but it would be understood that any details of any discussions would not be made public. People should not regard this silence as some sort of IH conspiracy.

          • Roland

            I see; so APCO was hired at great expense to say and do nothing?

          • Roland

            P.S. You continue to misapprehend Rossi as, apparently, do IH et al. Fortunately this is probably a permanent condition.

          • Pweet

            Obviously not. I think APCO has been hired (agreed, at great expense) for the purpose of smoothing over the inevitable bad publicity resulting from IH’s decision to invest 11 million dollars in what they now recognize is a bottle of snake oil. Plus, they will also have to come up with a strategy for smoothing things over with the parties who IH persuaded to invest even more millions in IH on the basis that IH had claimed access to a big bottle of what has now turned out to be snake oil.
            Similar to the fuel oil market at the moment, it seems snake oil is currently experiencing a bit of a glut, and the price has slumped.
            These two jobs should keep them well and truly busy without taking on any side issues.

          • Michael W Wolf

            Rossi is pleading his case. IH is taking the fifth. Publicly speaking.

          • Anon2012_2014

            “Which would imply IH have some element of control over those loose cannons.”

            IH has the NDA (which as a well funded entity they undoubtedly they had Rothwell sign) plus moral suasion as a company that did Rothwell a favor in letting him see the information.

        • Anon2012_2014

          @engineer: “Which might suggest Jed is an agent of IH”

          I doubt it. I think Rothwell is just someone that IH let see the data because of his long standing involvement in LENR. He probably saw it under NDA and because of the trial, IH’s lawyers suggested he not disclose anything that is under that NDA. Which is all a PITA when it comes to free transfer of information…

          You and I (and the rest of the world) don’t have the need to know as far as Leonardo and IH are concerned. So we wait for what seems like forever for the ERV report.

    • Roland

      If the librarian won’t discuss it he can’t be pressed to demonstrate the veracity of a single thing he has had to say.

      ‘Librarian says’ will just have to suffice us peasants…

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      Jed Rothwell should stop talking about “details” if he cannot supply the source of his information. I once had respect for this man, but going on and on about information he has obtained from a source he will not reveal is intellectually dishonest.

  • Engineer48

    Another interesting comment from Jed Rothwell:

    http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg110889.html

    “I do know, but I have agreed not to discuss details which has not been made public by Rossi or I.H., so I cannot discuss ”

    Agreed with who?

    • Anon2012_2014

      “Agreed with who? [not to discuss trial details]

      Probably with the lawyers from either IH or Leonardo. The trial just went into “discovery” phase, so all connected parties are in a quiet period. This will make it harder to follow what is happening for a period of time. I hope (but don’t know) that the discovery depositions and other evidence will be made public. My recollection from this type of civil proceeding is that it becomes public unless one party’s lawyer files to keep it private (and the judge agrees with the legal purpose), or in certain cases, redacts information from the evidence that is going to the other party’s lawyer or the public.

      I watched a public trial like this (or set of trials) when IBM, Novell, Red Hat, and SCO went after each other. I learned a lot from observing. These trials are kind of interesting, but in the end create a lot of unnecessary entropy except for the trial lawyers who are paid to participate. Honestly, it would be better for both parties if they could come to an agreement. However, both parties have to be “ready” and I am fairly sure that Rossi is too angry to agree to a settlement because he thinks he is “right” and wants “justice”. Waste of potential energy.

      • Engineer48

        Hi Anon,

        Which might suggest Jed is an agent of IH?

        • Thomas Kaminski

          Or IH is trying to rein in loose cannons that are hurting their case….

          • Engineer48

            Hi Thomas,

            Which would imply IH have some element of control over those loose cannons.

          • Pweet

            It is normal procedure that information relating to an upcoming court case is not blathered all over the newspapers or internet. It always has been. That does not stop either party from getting advice or instruction from other parties, but in doing so, it is usually the understanding that the other parties do not publish far and wide the matters discussed with them. It’s not a matter of reigning in loose canons or any other hyperbolic descriptions. It’s a matter of common courtesy and normal procedure.
            What Mr Rossi is doing by way of publishing his case and point of view on his web blog is totally not normal procedure. His publication of everything on the internet regarding the case is a good indication that he does not intend to see it be dealt with by the courts.
            The silence of IH is completely normal. They will be talking to whoever they need to talk to in order to help substantiate their side of the argument, but it would be understood that any details of any discussions would not be made public. People should not regard this silence as some sort of IH conspiracy.

          • Roland

            I see; so APCO was hired at great expense to say and do nothing?

          • Roland

            P.S. You continue to misapprehend Rossi as, apparently, do IH et al. Fortunately this is probably a permanent condition.

          • Pweet

            Obviously not. I think APCO has been hired (agreed, at great expense) for the purpose of smoothing over the inevitable bad publicity resulting from IH’s decision to invest 11 million dollars in what they now recognize is a bottle of snake oil. Plus, they will also have to come up with a strategy for smoothing things over with the parties who IH persuaded to invest even more millions in IH on the basis that IH had claimed access to a big bottle of what has now turned out to be snake oil.
            Similar to the fuel oil market at the moment, it seems snake oil is currently experiencing a bit of a glut, and the price has slumped.
            These two jobs should keep them well and truly busy without taking on any side issues.

          • Michael W Wolf

            Rossi is pleading his case. IH is taking the fifth. Publicly speaking.

          • Anon2012_2014

            “Which would imply IH have some element of control over those loose cannons.”

            IH has the NDA (which as a well funded entity they undoubtedly they had Rothwell sign) plus moral suasion as a company that did Rothwell a favor in letting him see the information.

        • Anon2012_2014

          @engineer: “Which might suggest Jed is an agent of IH”

          I doubt it. I think Rothwell is just someone that IH let see the data because of his long standing involvement in LENR. He probably saw it under NDA and because of the trial, IH’s lawyers suggested he not disclose anything that is under that NDA. Which is all a PITA when it comes to free transfer of information…

          You and I (and the rest of the world) don’t have the need to know as far as Leonardo and IH are concerned. So we wait for what seems like forever for the ERV report.

    • Roland

      If the librarian won’t discuss it he can’t be pressed to demonstrate the veracity of a single thing he has had to say.

      ‘Librarian says’ will just have to suffice us peasants…

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      Jed Rothwell should stop talking about “details” if he cannot supply the source of his information. I once had respect for this man, but going on and on about information he has obtained from a source he will not reveal is intellectually dishonest.