Early E-Cat Test Witnessed By Former DARPA Director Tony Tether (New Energy Times)

There’s a document posted on the New Energy Times website in which Steven Krivit posts some emails between himself and Tony Tether, former director of DARPA, who attended an early demonstration of an E-Cat by Andrea Rossi. The email exchange starts in June 2011, and the last message from Tether is from March 2016. You can read the exchanges here:


The most recent message is the most interesting as it gives some details about the setup. Tether writes:

“The experiment measured input electrical power (400 Watts I believe), the flow rate of water and the temperature rise of the output to the input of the water.

“There was a hydrogen source into the device and the mass of the hydrogen was being measured to make sure that burning the hydrogen was not a source of heat.

“The experiment went on for hours until we all stopped looking at it

“The input electrical energy to increased heat energy output was 25 (may be off a bit here but nothing that would change the conclusion) and the fact that this was true over many hours negated that some chemical reaction was the cause)”

I find this to be another interesting account of an early test, which gives a similar picture to other test reports of the E-Cat over the years. In an earlier message, Tether seems to be convinced of the validity of the E-Cat, but does allow the possibility that it might not be all it seems saying “if it is a hoax, it is a damn good one”.

  • Jonnyb

    In my opinion it’s no hoax.

    • Ged

      You’re in good company with DARPA and friends.

  • Curbina

    The fun thing is that Krivit was trying To convince Theter that Rossi is a fraud, and Theter has been clear he thinks is more likely than this is not a Hoax.

    • kdk

      I really wonder what’s up with anybody who touts cold fusion, but thinks after so many positive demonstrations and tests that Rossi is a fraud. Unless it has a useless COP, it must be a hoax/fraud, I guess. However that logic works out.

      • Roger Roger

        They’re mostly either shills, or cultists

        Sane people who don’t believe Rossi just stop following this affair, until some conclusion is reached
        Those who keep nagging and spouting sarcasm are paid for it, or hyper-reacting because they know their Weltanschauung is coming to an end

    • Ged

      It is also interesting that Theter reports the COP was around 25 even back then in 2011. The timeline of invention and development is fascinating.

      • Rene

        Back then COP > 6 led to gammas and unpredictable meltdown/explosions. Control was fleeting at best.

    • Engineer48

      Hi Curbina,

      His opinion has not altered. Someone found it on his site, posted it to a Skype group and then Frank found it.

      • Curbina

        Yes, I know that Krivit has not changed one bit, and is curently fascinated by the clash of Rossi with IH.

  • Ged

    Have to give props to Krivit for posting the exchange. Quite an honorable act, particularly since it undermines his usual narrative, so that takes some courage. Also, very kind of Tether to answer questions and communicate with the interested public.

    • Robert Dorr

      I wonder if this is an early sign of a Krivit “mea culpa”.

      • LCD

        Yeah wow, still he needs to wear an I love rossi shirt before I welcome his truth stretching butt back.

    • Engineer48

      Hi Ged,

      As far as I know Krivit did not openly publish that document. It was dug out of his site by someone else and posted to a Skype discussion group, where it seems Frank came across it. 😉

      • Ged

        Oh, hm. That would be quite the twist then! Thank you for the correction.

      • Frank should make that clear in the post imo

    • Anon2012_2014

      Krivit is pro-LENR, but anti-Rossi. I have to say Krivit’s single minded focus on proving Rossi is a fraud is bizarre, just as Sterling Allen is bizarre, just as Rossi on JONP is bizarre talking about snakes and clowns, and just as is some of you guys fighting and threatening each other. And then how about that Mary Yugo. What’s with all the negativity?

      • Ged

        To summarize, humanity is biazzare.

      • Engineer48

        Hi Anon,

        I debate with respect, use logic, science, physics, my engineering & business experience, known data & references to either show why something just is not possible or it is possible.

        So far the known facts support Rossi and there is really very little provable data against him.

        Have never seen anything that is provable anti Rossi from Krivit, Mary Yugo, Jed, Weaver, etc. Nothing but hearsay or worst intentional misinformation that a non skilled person would never suspect was BS.

        So yes there are very real Snakes & Clowns that have been attacking Rossi for years, yet never anything provable has ever been presented.

        • Anon2012_2014

          I wish Rossi would drop the snake and clown references.

          For the rest of us, why can’t we have respect and decorum in our LENR club her on the internet? What’s with the personal attacks…. It brings the entire community down. I prefer to discuss the technical aspects. Ad hominum = noise.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Anon,

            I agree and try real hard to not attact the person but only their comments.

            Frank should be proud of the vast majority of ECW member as it is rare to see personal attacks on this forum.

  • Engineer48

    Here is the 2008/2009 “Bottle” reactor in Rossi’s NH home.

    Rossi has a VERY understanding wife!

    • Mats002

      Is the wife still around? Seems unlikely.

      • Engineer48

        Hi Mats002,

        She beats him at tennis every weekend.

      • bachcole

        She seems like sort of a mysterious figure.

        • Mats002

          Yes, I have a wife and a few girlfriends before her and I never met a women like that. If they are still married I doubt they live together.

          And I am sure she will not share a container with him for living ^^

          • wpj

            He lost the first family during all of the problems in Italy according to his bio on his website.

    • Hi E48,

      Where did you get that photo?


      • TOUSSAINT francois
        • Engineer48

          Hi Toussaint,

          Nice video with English subtitles plus photos of early reactors.

          Doubters should watch this video, read what Focardi says and look at the engineering progression of the early reactors.

          Thanks for posting that link.

          Frank what about making this a thread?

          • Frank Acland
          • Engineer48

            Hi Frank,

            Today that video and Focardi’s words, the images of the early reactors, the reactor in Rossi’s house with the Blue QuarkX glow and the email from Tetlet tells a VERY powerful story about the early history and how it is linked to the current activity.

            The Blue glow from the 2008 reactor in the house and the blue glow from the 2016 QuarkX reactor fits the final block in my pyramidal due diligence process.

            Beyond doubt, this is real.

            I will be putting all this together and submitting my initial due diligence report to my potential client and recomnendating they strongly consider proceeding to the MOU stage, which would lead to a 1MWt reactor visit.

          • Now we’re talking!

          • Thomas Kaminski

            I have always felt that Rossi’s work shows a steady evolution of technology with each new device an improvement on the previous one. The 1MW plant in Florida is really a big step forward. Critics say “why no product yet? Must be a scam”, but the progress does not look to me like a scam — rather the steadily improving engineering of a product through stages.

          • Thomas, obviously that was all just a ten year set up so that when the time was right he could go to court and have his scam legally validated and turn $11M into $100M.


          • Engineer48

            Hi Thomas,

            I totally 100% agree.

            The R&D progression is so clear, even from the 1st 3 reactor designs. Gotta like the Red bucket as a holder of water to boil off and measure the heat output. KISS!

          • TOUSSAINT francois

            Thank you

          • Ged

            “I thought this was a visit to a reactor elsewhere, being tested by another group at this time.”

            Oh hoh, so much for what you said to me that “But I knew about other tests at about that time, in the same place.” So not the same place, and unrelated to the tests you thought. Getting the truth out of such contradictory replies is like pulling teeth.

            “The only Rossi test I have looked at in detail is the 1-year 1-MW test. That was a farce”

            Where’s the data, Jed? Where’s the proof of the serious allegations you levy? Come on, cough up some substantiation to prove you have anything beyond words.

            “[O]ut-and-out fraud.”

            That is a Very serious allegation, Jed. Where’s the proof? Where’s the substance? We are waiting. All I want is data, I will sing your praises profusely if you can support yourself. But till then, I will hound you at every turn.

            By the way, we’re is that independent 10 page report on the 1 MW plant that shows it “looks like it worked”? Got proof of that, or is what you said make-believe?

        • Albert D. Kallal

          The only unfortunate part in above is the claim of nickel to transmutation to copper.

          Rossi has since retracted on this issue (he now believes it was contamination from the pipe fittings).

          However, the video is REALLY great in seeing Focardi present.

          Clearly Focardi is sincere, not scamming, and was not asking for money.

          As as noted, the progression of devices also makes perfect sense.

          This video does heaps of good in terms of believing that Rossi has what he claims.

          Albert D. Kallal
          Edmonton, Alberta Canada

        • Josh G

          I guess it depends on your definition of over-unity. For me it simply means that more energy comes out of the system than we put into it. In my book that’s over unity.

          As for the ‘real energy source’ being from fusion, are you sure? Are ALL known sources of energy in the Universe already known and understood, such as the 70% of the universe that is “dark energy”? See for example this presentation by Steven Jones: http://pesn.com/2012/11/19/9602225_Steven_Jones_replica–Pons_and_Fleischmann_XS_Heat_not_from_fusion/StevenJonesSeminarAtUnivMissouriOct2012.pdf

          By the way, the “freedom energy” that Jones talks about is nothing other than Miles Mathis’s “charge field” that I refer to in this paper on the source of the excess heat in LENR experiments, which can also explain the emission of RF and x-rays.


          Bottom line: fusion, beta decay and transmutations are not the primary causes of excess heat. They are the byproducts of the process that causes the excess heat. At least that’s my hypothesis.

    • Rene

      Ooo, the blue glow… This is a very old photo, pre the elbow e-cats. Where did you get it?

      • Ged

        I appreciate the handily placed, large fire extinguisher.

      • Engineer48

        Hi Rene.

        Well spotted. Interesting that Blue glow.

        From the hose types, the cold water enters the reactor at the near left side & the heated water exits from the far right side.

  • Josh G

    Wait a second, if this is true, it means that the **director of DARPA** saw this over-unity energy generator, thought it was legit, and then just sort of shrugged and went “well that’s neat” before walking away?

    Come on! The e-cat is a DARPA director’s wet dream. Either he procured the technology somehow (perhaps via the NASA purchase or others we don’t know about but Rossi has hinted at), or he already knew that they have in their possession technology far in advance of the e-cat “locked up in black projects [that] would take an act of God to ever get them out to benefit humanity” (to borrow the words of Ben Rich, Lockheed’s former skunkworks directors). The only really surprising thing in all of this is that he didn’t take Rossi and the e-cat “underground” in the interests of “national security.”

    • Jarea

      well said Josh!. We all see that the director of DARPA was not impressed with the COP of 25. Why? you said well, they know they (military) have that technology and beyond in black projects available for them when it is needed. The difference now is that this technology has been re-discovered by Rossi out of the black project and they cannot contain, they can only delay. That is obvious because no mainstream media says anything about that sothat there is no too many scientist interested to reproduce results.
      As you said, in the world we live, where this technology doesn´t exist, we are all excited.
      DARPA director would have wet his pants in our world.

      • Josh G

        And even if they have the technology already, they would likely not want it getting into civilian hands. I assume they could stop Rossi if they wanted to. Not this IH lawsuit sideshow BS, but really put an end to him and his work.

        So then why don’t they? It’s quite a puzzle. He has said that his secrets are secure even if he dies. They might even be released. So maybe their best bet is just try to discredit him and slow him down as much as possible…?

        • Ted-Z

          The civilian word needs LENR energy because the end of the oil fields is getting closer and closer. Without oil or a replacement for oil, the civilization would end up in a chaos, much worse than all the revolutions of the past combined. That would be very bad even to the most rich people in the world, as suddenly all the institutions would become dysfunctional. Military, which really has the energy technology, would not be able to cope with the chaos, with anything that they have at their disposal.
          This is well known and recognized by the government.

          • Jarea

            I think there is still oil for many many years. The swift from oil has been an elite economic power strategic decision.
            They say that the time has come due to global warming but i don´t believe that.

            Some possible reasons are because maybe, they have decided that they need a new technology step to stimulate economy and they leaked the cold fusion for the civilian world in a progressive and slow motion. Of course, they shared the information to their friends Rockefellers, Arabia Saudi, and most important US oil companies, first, so that they could well prepare to the fall of prices. This is covered in the sifferkoll blog where he has followed the money very well. he shows the massive sells of big oils.

            Maybe, all this decision is about power balance. Russia is an oil energy exporter. If they stop backing the oil energy as a source of value then they will have Russia and many other export energy countries under US control.
            US is shifting from an energy value model (petrodollars) to surveillance transaction tax model.
            Maybe, is about the big reset. They think it needs to be done and for that to be less dangerous, they need the cost of the energy near to zero. This could also led to reduction of population due to chaos and loose of value.
            With US and almost all the world having a debt that cannot be paid they are preparing for the new divise that is not attached to oil. In order to avoid that any other country replace that role backing their money with energy, they need to make the energy prices unvaluable and cold fusion is the best option for that.
            The only way to keep your divise valuable is making your divise a must-buy for specific things or services (petrol,energy,technology,food). But if we have a world or a big block divise then you dont need exports you only have “intern commerce” that can be taxed (and to avoid black market you need good survillance).

          • Ted-Z

            The big reset is potentially the shift of the Earth’s crust. Albert Einstein an Hapgood were well aware about that potential catastrophe. I could cause a massive depopulation.

    • Barbierir

      Perhaps the 1MW plant sold to an unspecified “military customer” in 2011?

      • Engineer48

        Hi Barbierir,

        Believe there were several “military” customers.

        • Barbierir

          And I wonder what have they being doing with it? How come they can keep it under wraps? There are so many unanswered questions.

        • wpj

          The Italian Navy is a specific exception in the court documents.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Wpj,

            Yes I also noticed that.

            One wonders if they have a 1MWT ECat reactor under test for NATO. Well the guy who signed off the 1MW demo was said to be a NATO Coronel.

          • Pweet

            Yes, And we know that a 1MW plant was sold to the secret military customer who ran it for at least a year, because Mr Rossi answered a few questions on its performance and maintenance in the following year. So the military must know all about it by now. I think by now they would probably be the world authority on everything ecat. (Not the QuackEcat of course because that was developed by just one person under the top security of a sealed sea container. In fact it was so secure that nobody would know anything about it except that the person doing the development kept us updated every day on a web blog)
            It’s impossible to believe they would have obtained such a revolutionary new method of power generation without doing extensive research and development on it, and they would have much wider and better resources to do this than Mr Rossi. Unless they didn’t want to infringe Mr Rossi’s less than descriptive and iron clad patent on it. Although, when I look at the likelihood of all this it is a little bit short of totally convincing.

      • Anonynous

        When people think of military, they think about people in camouflage uniforms and helmets driving around in tanks.

        What if they dont………

        • Omega Z

          ->”When people think of military, they think about people in camouflage uniforms and helmets driving around in tanks.”

          So 20th Century.

          In the 21st Century, It’s a bird It’s a POOFFF.

          All handled by a 20 year old gamer with a joystick in 1 hand and an energy drink in the other…

    • Ged

      Rossi has bases in other countries, so he couldn’t be black holed by the US ;).

    • Timar

      Well, one could speculate that they, after buying a plant from Rossi, may have created a civil commercial entitiy (by approaching a group of experiences venture capitalists) with the objective of obtaining Rossi’s IP and delaying its introduction as long as possible. 😉

  • Engineer48

    Nice Blue light coming from INSIDE the 2008/2009 Bottle reactor the DAPRPA head saw in operation.

    As there is water flowing through that reactor is this Cerenkov Radiation?

    Would seem the QuarkX reactor is not the 1st Rossi reactor to produce Blue light.

    • Engineer48

      BLUE GLOW IS NOT FROM THE 2008/2009 Bottle REACTOR!

      See attached.

      • pg

        Yes it is from a Focardi presentation in Bologna in 2011

      • Yet if you look at the enlargement of the object (connector block? sensor?) just above the end of the test device, it appears to be illuminated from the reactor side, not from the camera side. There also seems to be some reflected blue light from the bottom of a tubular shroud at the reactor end. The bluish reflection on the table top indicates that the general colour balance (gamma) may be off in this image.

  • I guess one would have to be fairly naive at this point to believe that the government is not involved in a significant way.

    It has obvious national security implications as well as economic and environmental consequences.

    NRL, SPAWAR and NASA have all been involved. And now we find out DARPA was aware from at least 2009.

    We have apparent visits to the White House by Darden and Vaughn (and maybe even Rossi).

    Can we conclude that the USG has a black program related to LENR? Can we conclude that the USG is actively trying to manage the timing and mechanism of the emergence of this technology?

    It is in this context that we must evaluate Industrial Heat’s latest actions.

    • Engineer48

      Hi Lenr G

      The data suggests IH may have made a seriously big and bad mistake.

      • Obvious

        Accidentally up voted due to fat fingers

        • Ged

          If you click it again, it will undo it. The hazards of touch screens and Disqus.

    • Ged

      This may be why Rossi has had to move operational focus back to Sweden. He has always had a foothold there; probably makes a good hedge against US government action.

    • I think that (black program) is very likely. Given the long history of cold fusion, it seems probable that USG agencies like DARPA may have been on the case for decades, and may already have operational systems. The partially disclosed work of Louis DeChiaro (sanctioned?) seems to confirm this. Possibly past suppression by means of ridicule and de-funding was initiated in order to smother at birth any parallel research by ‘outsiders’.

      However they might still be interested in acquiring variant technologies, of which Rossi’s system may be one, which would leave open the possibility that IH is/was a front for such acquisition. That would certainly explain the involvement of the likes of APCO and Jones Day, who would not normally get involved with the problems of a shell company set up by a modestly sized and morally dubious investment fund.

      In other words, as I and others have already speculated, IH may have been tasked with hoovering up any promising CF start-up companies, Rossi included, with the intention of suppressing the technology for a decade or so, and in the process acquiring possible enhancements or additions to military CF systems. This would not only provide valuable scientific input, would maintain the US military monopoly on CF (possibly now a US/Italian monopoly, unless the Italians have subsequently been leaned on).

      If so, the US military/CIA must be very annoyed by recent developments, and may even be considering fairly extreme actions intended to put the genie back in the bottle.

      • Timar

        There is one basic fact, however, that doesn’t rhyme with such a conspiracy theory. Why would Mr. Tether so openly tell Krivit (of all people!) that Rossis device worked? If such a black project conspiracy would exist, I’d expect him to do the exact opposite, either denying any comment or stating that Rossi is a scammer, just like IH currently does.

        • Introducing the term ‘conspiracy theory’ is a useful gambit for attempting to discredit discussion, but the idea that the US military doesn’t have secret technologies that it wouldn’t want to become public knowledge is completely untenable.

          Tether parted company with DARPA in Feb 2009, and in September of that year became a science advisor for the Scientific Systems Company, a large industrial technology developer. He supposedly witnessed the demo mentioned to Krivit a couple of moths later (November) by which time he would have no ongoing professional interest in downplaying the significance of cold fusion. In any case the information was available to others, so denying the facts would have been a hostage to fortune if SSC decided to develop its own cold fusion systems (as it may well be doing).

      • A lot of what you say feels right to me (though some proof would be welcome).

        An offshoot would be that Industrial Heat was what they appeared to be at the beginning but were subsequently asked to suppress (until 2017 is my guess due to the rather shocking plan of Saudi Arabia to diversify completely away from oil next year). And that they are just playing ball for the greater good.

        This is consistent with Darden et al being sincere, well-meaning guys. This is consistent with Dewey not knowing WTF was really happening (not read in). This is consistent with signs of USG involvement over many years. This is consistent with the evidence and testimony of a technology that actually works. This is consistent with the recruitment of APCO.

        There’s a lot that points in this direction. I have my eye on this scenario to see if it can truly be supported by the facts.

        • Sorry LENR G, but I just can’t picture the USG (or any other government for that matter) doing anything for the ‘greater good’. However the common theme of our ‘takes’ on the overall picture have one thing in common, which is the deliberate delaying of the introduction of a technology that will transform the world for the better.

          Now, a month’s time or a year hence it will make no difference – cold fusion will be fundamentally disruptive when it becomes available. But in the meantime people suffer unnecessarily, treasure is wasted on pointless technologies such as wind power, and on dangerous ones such as ‘new nuclear’, and political power increases through the AGW scare and the ‘carbon agenda’. The central fact is that its introduction will dis-empower TPTB, including all governments and energy corporations (not a bad thing, I would say) and I would suggest that it is this that lies behind the imposed delays.

          • Omega Z

            Agaricus, I’m of the opinion the U.S. Military/DOD is well aware of LENR and have determined it is not weaponizable Per se. They have no reason to suppress LENR, but in fact would benefit from it.

            However, there are those among the elite(TPTB) who have there own ideas of managing the world and LENR tho filling some of their needs, also hampers other goals. Therefore, they may prefer to suppress it.

            Those who do not go along with the elite shall be punished. Brexit is an example. Nothing need really change, but by refusing to follow their agenda, you shall be punished. Usually in a financial manner.

          • GreenWin

            But, but, wind and solar are the ONLY sustainable tech to counter global floods caused by AGW! Along with billion$$ in carbon taxes that will fuel our savior New World Order. LENR is an egalitarian technology de-centralizing energy distribution. We must NOT let the unwashed proletariat take back individual sovereignty! Just ask Algore or Richard Dawkins.

      • GreenWin

        Right on the money Agaricus. Starting with US Navy SPAWAR employee Paul Swanson’s visit to Rossi’s 2011 demo in Bologna, and ending with Rear Admiral Patrick Brady’s order to terminate all SPAWAR cold fusion research, following a leak at Fox News about Rossi’s success. We have all the earmarking of a black project unable to avoid the light of inquiry.
        Unhappily for U.S. and other guv’ment spin doctors, they have been caught red handed lying and manipulating truth too often. There is a global anti-elitist movement on (Trump – Brexit) and the cockroaches are skittering back to the shadows. Time to use a Monsanto pesticide to clean house??

        • psi2u2

          Montsanto? If you let that batshit out into our world we will pay for it. They have got to be the among the most monomaniacally destructive organizations in our world right now. Trump- anti-elitist? I don’t think so. He is just a narcissist.

  • Engineer48

    Analysis of the Blue glow from the 2008/2009 Rossi “Bottle” reactor the DARPA head observed over many hours:
    . https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/c91141c1d7953e86a6524c9f8439712f438800e8937a6f2d6dca375d706a8874.jpg

  • Warthog

    Well, if you like wordplay, here is my all-time favorite. On bumper sticker…..”Eschew Obfuscation”……

  • Ged

    Yep. LENR/Cold fusion consumes a fuel. Nothing magic or overunity; it is not “free energy”. I think that point gets forgotten too often.

    • Josh G

      Well I have my own ideas as to the source of the excess heat. I don’t think the fuel is the primary source of heat and I’m not sure to what extent it is “consumed.” But in any case all I meant by over unity is that more energy comes out of the system than we put into it. In my book that’s over unity.

  • LuFong

    One can also view this as a PR effort to defend IH’s ineptitude with Rossi. If DARPA was taken in back in 2009 then one cannot really fault IH.

    I believe this whole affair is extremely damaging to IH and undercuts their claims of competence and ability to do due diligence. To their credit they claim they discovered the deception and are moving on. But the question still remains, after this Rossi saga, would you invest your money with IH?

    • Engineer48

      Hi LuFong,

      Or just maybe IH are not the nice guys they claim to be?

      • LuFong

        I didn’t say but either way they have a PR problem.

  • Observer

    Anthony Tether was director of DARPA from June 18, 2001, until February 20, 2009. According to the e-mail chain he attended an E-Cat demonstration on (approximately) November 20th 2009. Former DARPA directors are not without clout, but do not have the ability to pull strings like an active DARPA director.

    • Josh G

      What strings to you have in mind? Anyway the Tether is nothing if not connected.

      From Wikipedia: “As of September 8, 2009, Tether is a member of the SSCI Scientific Advisory Board. Scientific Systems Company, Inc. (SSCI) is a developer of technology solutions for defense and industrial suppliers.”

      Looking at the rest of his bio, you can see he’s a major player in the military industrial complex. And for icing on the cake: “He has held other positions in the Defense Department … as director of the National Intelligence Office in the Office of the Secretary of Defense from 1978-82.”

      Interesting career this guy has had: goes straight from PhD program to executive VP of a military contractor (System Control) for 9 years, then jumps straight to being director of National Intelligence Office of the Secretary of Defense. That’s a pretty big leap. This guy must be connected.

      You know what they say, once a spook, always a spook.

      • Robert Dorr

        Someone like Tether, who is as widely connected as he has got to be, must have told those in the know that Rossi’s e-cat needed to be examined thoroughly for possible use in the defense industry. That’s what he has been doing for a living. What’s been happening with that information in the very secretive world of “Black Programs” is the big mystery. I would bet that they have somehow acquired an e-cat, possibly by purchasing one of Rossi’s 1MW plants and have completely reverse engineered it to see how it ticks and they probably have plans to incorporate what they have found out in future defense related weapons and equipment.

      • Observer

        These kind of strings:

    • Pweet

      Doesn’t it seem a bit strange that Tony Tether says he saw a demonstration in November 2009 which he thought to be convincing, and yet two years later when Krivit saw a similar demonstration of a ‘working’ reactor, he came away thinking it was a deception, and the video he took appears to confirm this.
      And also in the year of 2011 when Mats Lewan visited the Rossi lab for a demonstration, the video he made clearly shows the reactor was not working, but the pretense was that it was working.
      And various other demonstrations with misplaced thermocouples in one test and serious temperature measurement errors in another demonstration indicate the results were in serious error. And finally of course, the long awaited 1MW test which was to prove beyond doubt that the ecat worked on a long term reliable basis has only resulted in the partner walking out, reporting the claimed results could not be substantiated. So after sinking 11 million dollars into the technology, they have had to conclude it does not work.
      So, what is there in the demonstration to Tony Tether in 2009 which would indicate that he witnessed anything other than a similar demonstration which was in error and the real performance was not as it was made to appear? I find that to be the most likely situation by a long way, and it’s hard to understand why people are taking this earlier demonstration as a proven and valid test proving authenticity, unlike all the later demonstrations which indicate just the opposite.
      To believe it was any different would require that the ability to make something work in 2009 had been lost two years later in 2011 and from that point on.

      • Albert D. Kallal

        year of 2011 when Mats
        Lewan visited the Rossi lab for a demonstration, the video he made clearly
        shows the reactor was not working, but the pretense was that it was working.

        Do you have a link or something to support the above? I not aware of this video that clearly shows the reactor not working but then if it is so very clear the reactor is not working, then why would anyone think otherwise?

        And same goes for the Lugano report. Some have
        pointed out issues, but one cannot assume or conclude such issues invalidate
        that 3rd party test.

        has only resulted in the partner walking out

        IH did not walk out – Rossi did.

        You playing loose with facts here – not a good sign and anytime one plays loose goosey with facts means one has to question your integrity and the validity of your statements.

        Albert D. Kallal
        Edmonton, Alberta Canada

  • Ged

    You didn’t know about this particular test till right now (so how can you claim IH and you knew about it, then say you didn’t in the same breath? “[N]ot a ringing endorsment” of your knowledge base of tests I guess), so obviously there is plenty you and we all don’t know.

  • Engineer48

    Hi Jed,

    So why not quote the email to Krivit, which he never revealed. Seems he was fishing for dirt & found information what was toxic to his view of Rossi.

    So to be fair, attached is what Tony Tether said to Steve Kirvit about his 2009 visit to Rossi’s home based “Bottle” reactor.

  • A tad desperate, Andy. A consultant who recommended a dud to a govt. agency wouldn’t keep the position for long.

  • Ged

    Your post and the original one I replied to are a textbook cases of cognitive dissonance. As usual lately.

    “Because I have discussed it with them.”

    No, you didn’t, because as you say “I did not know about this particular test.”

    There is so much you know not of, but you will not allow data newly discovered or well known to affect the cognition you have chosen, so you do your best to rationalize it away. Classic cognitive dissonance.

    But you know what is worst? That you attack the reputation of several people at slanderous levels, while basing your arguments on supposed material you are conveniently unwilling to provide, prove, validate, or substantiate. Highly dispicable behavior! Both IH and Rossi act with much greater honor. This and the painful to read levels of broken logic makes it seem you are just out for attention.

    All I care about are facts, data, and information. If you have a 10 page report showing the 1MW plant worked, then prove it and share it! If you have a partial piece of the REC that vindicated your currently slanderously acidic statements elsewhere, then prove it and share it! Till then, I believe nothing you say, not that it matters since your statements keep contradicting themselves at every turn, which is typical of attention seekers with no substance to back up the focus they try to garner by claiming “special” knowledge. Prove yourself!

    • timycelyn


      As I commented recently, it grieves me to have to note this, but JR now appears to have a rather erratic and tenuous grasp of reality, and in this subject seems to be well past his sell-by date.

      A great shame.

      • Ged

        I am sure the real Jed himself outside all this saga is a wonderful, upstanding person.

        I am starting to wonder if he is paid by IH, either directly or though some other value compensation means like gifts, travel, favors, etc. He says he told IH about tests, which is a consulting position. I bring this up because if the ERV report is under NDA, then showing him any part of it would be an actionable breach, which is why I do no believe for a moment he’s seen anything and is making it all up. But, if he is paid by IH, it would explain his current irrationally conflicted behavior and words without having to say he’s fabricating the whole thing for himself. It would all make sense then, but who knows, cognitive dissonance is sometimes a powerful thing.

  • Pweet

    Yes Jed. How dare you have an opinion.! And it’s just outrageous that you base it on information that you have either seen or actually know about, rather than on just wild conjecture. Oh,.. and.. 😉

    • Ged

      How do you know he’s seen any such information? How do you know the veracity or accuracy of what he’s supposedly seen? You don’t.

      Let’s not go around gullibly believing allegations from people who refuse to offer any evidence they aren’t making it up, who will share no evidence of any sort. Especially if they align with your preconceived bias. That’s why I don’t believe him about the independent 10 page report showing it works unless he offers proof such a report even exists.

      Contrast this with Engineer48 who has posted e-mails to back himself up, and who does not make authoritative statements from knowledge he can’t share, only what he can.

      • Engineer48

        Hi Ged,

        More than that.

        We now have proof that what Jed and others have said about the flow meter being incorrectly placed are false as from this photo it is very clearly correctly placed.

        Then assuming the flow meter is a utility grade billable BTU meter (records both energy and volume flow), which I would use, these units are designed not to be tampered with. That is what makes them Utility grade billable meters.

        Next how to make one of these units record a flow of 1.500kg/hr (COP 50) when the Jed claimed (COP 1) flow was really 30kg/hr is just nuts or a statement clearly designed to mislead those who do not understand how the technology works.

        Why Jed would intentionally make misleading statement is something that is hard to accept, yet here is the evidence. The flow meter was properly placed and yet Jed claims it was not placed correctly.

        To me this single piece of hard evidence, generates a very large inability for me to believe anything Jed says.

        • Pweet

          The photo you posted shows one flow meter. There would have seen many flow meters. We have no idea how many were placed and where they were placed. I have no idea how many or where they were placed so I have made no comment on this. What we do know is that IH have seen where all the instrumentation was placed and according to their advice, (and they needed advice because I believe the IH personnel have little expertise, and that’s why they got sucked into this circus,) the testing was in serious error and th results are a sham.
          Both IH and Jed Rothwell were previously taken as being up front and honest and their opinions and utterances on lenr matters were highly respected by those in the lenr camp. And yet now that their opinion is not in tune with the prevailing opinion on one particular lenr process device, their honesty is supposedly doubtful and their integrity is questionable.
          That is hardly a sound basis for establishing the truth of any matter and if the veracity of a technology can only be maintained by performing a character assassination on those who were previously strong advocates, when they now profess a contrary opinion, the technology has a serious problem in believably.

          • Pweet

            * believability*

          • Engineer48


            Sorry to disappoint but the flow meter was installed in the single fluid feed pipe to the reactors 24 pumps. See the wider shot.

            It measured ALL the fluid flowing into the pumps.

            What Weaver and Jed has said are not correct statement. Accept they passed on false information and move on.

          • Pweet

            I’m not disappointed because as I said, I’m taking no part in any discussion of where the possible errors might be. We simply do not have sufficient information as what was measured and how it was measured and what safeguards were put in pace to prevent mismeasurements and miscalculations. What I do know is that ALL previous demonstrations and tests were in serious error, and all errors were of the effect to overstate the power released.
            However, regarding this last test, I do make the observation that someone who says he has seen some of the information has concluded the test was a sham.
            I’m going on the previous good reputation of Jed Rothwell in these matters as an indication that there is some substance to his claims, rather than the claims of others who have nothing to go on other than what Mr Rossi says. The same goes for IH. They were previously the most magnificent partner ever, but now that they have spoken about their findings, they are now dishonest, greedy and scheming. I find such a rapid change of character hard to believe other than it seems to be coincident with nothing more than them expressing an opinion opposite to the expectations of some, and the prevailing meme. Others who are not at all surprised by the outcome are not so adversely opinioned.
            If this was the first and only incident like this we could be more forgiving, but the fact is, all of Mr Rossi’s previous partners and licensees have gone the same way. And the common factor is,..

          • Thomas Kaminski

            “All previous tests were in serious error”

            Sorry, but that is not true. There were probably error bars on the measurements and there was disagreement about the way the measurements were taken, but none of the errors were “serious”.

            It is beyond belief that there could be so serious an error that there would be a disagreement between COP 50 and COP 1. That is pure fantasy. Any engineer with a basic knowledge of thermodynamics and access to Google could construct a test that would verify the COP 50 or COP 1 was more likely the correct result.

          • Thomas Kaminski

            Jed Rothwell’s “good reputation” is not in the area of experimental results. You seem to lump “Rossi Says” in the same category as “Jed Rothwell Says”. What I see is “Rossi Says” is accompanied by a lot of pictures of equipment and tests run along with testimonies from others. What I see about “Jed Rothwell Says” is mostly statements from him backed up with no experimental apparatus that he has built. When pressed, he hides behind “I can’t discuss that — NDA”. When the “Good Reputation” of Rothwell is accompanied by actual test data from apparatus that he has developed, I will change my opinion.

        • I’d like Jed to reply to this and to state whether this flow meter placement matches what he was led to believe on the schematics he was provided.

          Personally I do not believe Jed is dishonest or trying to deceive us. I’d like his opinion on whether this image and apparent flow meter placement makes any sense to him or if it contradicts his previous info and he now has a mystery to solve.

          Perhaps that is not a flow meter?

          • Ged

            “You will only accept information from Rossi, so you must ask him.”

            How intellectually dishonest of you. The report is the ERV’s so I care nothing about from whence it comes, and I am not asking Rossi, I am asking -you-. But you’ve got nothing tangible to show, do you?

            And Rossi does not attack people’s character based on no shared data, but you have done so repeatedly to Penron, Rossi, and others. It is sickening given your otherwise good nature, but only truly sickening because you can’t accept responsibility for your own actions and have to blame others like you do right there above. You are better than that, and that is why I can’t stand what you have made yourself become within this saga.

            If your criticisms are valid, then release your basis for making them so we can all judge the accuracy fairly. I am asking no one but -you-, Jed, unless you’ve got nothing but imagination?

          • GreenWin

            Very good evidence that Mr. Kirvit is the ringer here not Dr. Rossi. Kirvit appears to be a typical disinfo toadie for the likes of GCHQ-JTRIG, State Dept. BBG, CNET, and NSA programs.

      • Mats002

        Me too have knowledge I can’t share. Sorry for you.

        This is a sandbox, I can’t believe we are grownups :/

        Let’s go do something useful with our time, truth will come out anyway.

        • Engineer48

          Hi Mats002,

          Wait for it………………………….

      • psi2u2


    • timycelyn

      Well, having seen your other arguments, above and elsewhere, I’d say you’re pretty good a the wild conjecture yourself…takes one to know one, perhaps?

      • Pweet

        I will admit a lot of what I post is ‘conjecture’ but it is conjecture based on a some known facts gleaned from prior events. I hope it’s not conjecture influenced by any blind belief or immovable opinion. At any time I could change my view if Mr Rossi would just once come up with a believable and provable result. But alas,.. as yet , nothing. And that includes the latest revelation, the QuackEcat.
        Thus the conjecture continues. Sorry if it offends.

  • Ged

    “You must ask him for a copy, because you will not believe it if I give it to you.”

    Bull. That is an irrational, lame excuse to try to absolve yourself of your responsibility to back up your accusations since you claim they are based on information. IH has it too, why have they not released it? Also, you originally said you got it from an IH source, so either you lied then, or now. Also, the ERV report is the ERV’s, not Rossi’s, so your statement there is also dishonestly misleading.

    I expect you have absolutely nothing and are trying to play everyone for fools to make yourself look important and/or for amusement. It appears you’ve got nothing but empty bluster, and that is why you can’t share a scrap of data. Same goes for your supposed supportive 10 page independent report. You have show absolutely nothing to the contrary yet.

    I sincerely hope I am wrong.

  • Ged

    “Why not? It is his data. It is very strange that you will not ask him for his own data. I have never heard of a researcher who brags about his results the way Rossi does and then tells his supporters NOTHING.”

    Wrong. Rossi has consistently denied saying anything about details of the results of the test since it is not released. This is contrary to you, who accuses others of gross professional incompetance and fraud, which is slander if you have no evidence to back yourself up, yet you claim you have such information. Conveniently, you refuse to back yourself up and prove you actually have this mysterious information, thus trying to hide behind a shield of misdirection.

    Additionally, you always side step me asking why has IH not released if it supports them? Got no answer I see. All I see are double standards and outright misinformation like what you said in what I quote above. I have yet to see a display of solid honesty or integrety in this matter.

    “I am amazed you let him manipulate you this way. Can’t you see he is playing you for fools?”

    All I see is you trying to play the community as fools by pretending you have information to back up your attacks, but sharing no scrap, not even one iota. Attempting to inflate your personal position but having no substance at all. Manipulative to the extreme, doesn’t that sound like? Claim authoritative info and try to manipulate people’s opinions yet refuse to prove it? Did you honestly think no one would call you out?

    Trying to paint me as believing Rossi is yet another major mistake of yours. I only care about data, and only data, not Rossi or you or IH. I don’t trust your inability to produce any data, at all, and so thus I can’t trust you. I don’t trust Rossi or IH if they make claims using supposed data they refuse to release. But again, you using such misdirection as conflating me with Rossi is clear evidence you have nothing, or nothing you think could survive scrutany.

    I demand proof for slanderous remarks, yet you are unable to pony up, thus I am forced to conclude you are making it up to manipulate everyone to your liking. A conclusion backed by your inability to get your facts straight about your own knowledge base, contradicting yourself in the same sentence and between replies, extraordinary cognitive dissonance, and inability to field any questions to the legitimacy of your own side but only deflecting into unrelated attacks at others like Rossi who have nothing to do with the discussion at hand, which is about -you-.

    “I have something tangible, but not to show to you. I have agreed not to reveal any information that Rossi or I.H. have not already revealed.”

    And yet you are willing to directly and viciously attack people’s reputations. You should say nothing at all, like Rossi and IH, that was your first and huge mistake. It is shameful. I could respect saying you’ve seen something and it doesn’t look good as a headsup, and leaving it at that (because it is unreleased), but you didn’t do that. You started making allegations instead. I cannot respect your deeds here. And what you say above is yet another convenient side step to avoid backing up your statements.

    There can be no trust in you till you do so. Same goes for that supposed 10 page report that perhaps you made up to manipulate the discussion once you started losing. You won’t prove it or any of these other mysterious documents even exist, yet it is such a simple and unrevealing task.

    • Pweet

      I wonder if Jed had submitted a highly favorable abbreviated assessment of the test but failed to submit any supporting data, would his opinion be treated with such hostility? My feeling is that he could have made it as glowingly glorious as he liked based on nothing more substantial than his present argument, and nobody would have asked for any verification at all because ,… Jed Rothwell said it. And I think it would have been splashed all over the web as positive proof that the ecat was at last proven. Glory be,.. we’re saved!
      It’s a bit strange that the same person submits a short report which is runs against expectations and some want to crucify him.
      I don’t know Jed at all. He might be the brightest light on the forum (doubtful,.. sorry Jed, but don’t be sad, I’m not either) or he might be as dull as an old kerosene lamp with a burnt out wick, but it is the same Jed whose opinion was respected just one year ago. The only difference between then and now is, some don’t like his latest contribution.
      We need some consistency here, with IH, with Jed, with Alain Co, with lots of people. To simply shoot everyone who changes their mind and comes to a contrary opinion will not arrive at a correct answer to anything. To shoot the long term skeptics is one thing but to resort to shooting your previous supporters is quite another.
      Thanks Jed, for speaking up as you find, rather than to say nothing in order to save your previous status as the ‘golden haired boy’.

      • Ged

        “I wonder if Jed had submitted a highly favorable abbreviated assessment of the test but failed to submit any supporting data, would his opinion be treated with such hostility?”

        The answer is yes. And especially yes if actual direct allegations against people are made based on such supposed but unshared/unproven positive or negative data. As has happened here.

        Pweet, you conveniently forget Jed’s supposed 10 page report independently made secretly when Rossi was away that supposedly shows it worked. I challenge the existance of that positive report and have since day 1, as he won’t release a scrap of data or even just a picture of it on his desk to prove it exists. These games are no longer acceptable, and I don’t care for whom some secret report is positive or negative, it seem now we are just being played with by folks who need that sense of power.

        Let me make this clear: I don’t care about sides, I care about data. I am an equal opportunity call-outist.

        And if I see someone trying to manipulate the community through claimed unreleased reports that they singularly have “seen”, with no corroboration in any way to back them up or to prove the accuracy of what they are the only person to have seen, I won’t tolerate it. I mostly let it be till Jed’s -positive- 10 page report; but as the same pattern of singular behavior to inflate importance occurred again, it was time to crush his house of cards, or have him actually provide proof he’s not abusing his position and people’s trust and naivety.

  • Josh G

    I wish it had been intentional

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