Thermal Analysis of the Production Plant Process in the 1MW test in Doral, Florida (GiveADogABone)

The header article for :-

Industrial Heat Amends Answer to Rossi’s Complaint on Aug 11th (Update #2 — Rossi: “The Heat Was Used, Not Vented Away”) quotes IH’s amended answer :-

82. … Murray also recognized that the building in which the Plant was located had no method to ventilate the heat that would be produced by the Plant were it producing the amount of steam claimed by Rossi, eonardo, and Penon …’
A bit of a problem here? No, the heat was embodied in hydrocarbon fuels.

‘… such that persons would not have been able to work in the building if the Rossi/Leonardo/Penon claims were true. ‘

Not a problem. ALL heat, bar the last few kilowatts was embodied in hydrocarbon fuels and the ambient temperature would have been fine.

‘This conflicted with the claims of individuals who had been in the building when the Plant was operating, all of whom claimed the temperature in the building was near or not much greater than the outside temperature.’

The ‘claims of individuals’ were correct, in my view.

83. ‘… when in fact it was simply recycling steam from the Plant and sending it back to the Plant as water.’

Doing that would require a condenser to turn the steam into water, which is actually what happens. The issue is what the heat removed by the condenser does and where it goes.

In my view claims 82 and 83 fail.

Overall Thermal Analysis of the Production Plant Process in the 1MW test in Doral, Florida :
Note: All this depends on there being a gas supply.

Consider a transport container that contains the whole production process of SMR(Steam Methane Reforming) and FT(Fischer-Tropsch). Another container contains an E-cat producing 1MW of steam and receiving a condensate return flow.

Inputs to the SMR+FT container :
1a: Air for combustion @ 20C
1b: Methane for combustion @ 20C
2: Methane for process raw material @ 20C
3: Towns water for cooling @ 20C
4: E-cat steam that goes to a heat exchanger @ 100C
Electricity to run the plant

Outputs from the SMR+FT container :
1: Flue Gas from combustion @ 60C
2: Liquid+solid hydrocarbons @ 60C
3: Towns water return from cooling @ 60C
4: E-cat return condensate from heat exchanger @60C
Heat loss from container surfaces is zero.

1: The combustion of air and methane is clearly inputting to the SMR+FT container considerable quantities of heat and the flue gases are cool; no different to a domestic central heating boiler. This air flow is taken from the ambient air inside the container and maintains the ambient air at a reasonable temperature. The air eventually emerges from the container via the flue gases, so the container must have a grill through which the outside air can enter when the doors are shut.

2: The methane is the raw material for making the liquid+solid hydrocarbons that are things like diesel, paraffin, avaiation kerosene and solid paraffin wax. They contain a great deal of embodied energy
that can be released by combustion at a later time and another place. These are fuels that are storable and transportable.

3: With so much heat around there is going to be a need for some cooling by air or water at 20C. How much cooling? Perhaps 20kw for the water.

4: The E-cat supplies 1MW of net enthalpy.

Where did the 1MW of heat from the E-cat (and more from the combustion) go?

Into the liquid+solid hydrocarbon fuels where it is stored.

Where did most of the mass of methane go?

Into the liquid+solid hydrocarbon fuels where it is stored. Some went up the flue gas pipe as combustion products.

How much heat was released into the Doral factory?

About 20kw via the town’s water cooling return and that went into the drains, so nothing escapes into the building, except perhaps in a bit of warmth in the liquid+solid fuels that are made. Even the heat from the
lights inside the SMR+FT container goes into the liquid+solid fuels.

Now you know why IH are on a hopeless quest to find a heat signature, except perhaps from the flue pipe and that will be as cold as the exhaust from my domestic condensing boiler. I have just been outside to check the exhaust pipe of my boiler. It is made of PLASTIC!

Below is a schematic posted in another comment by GiveADogABone (Click here for a full size image)

gadab

  • Curbina

    I dont contend this could be an actual scenario of what happened there, but then, why the claim of It being a Nickel sponge production process?

    • Engineer48

      Hi Cubina,

      Nickel sponge is used in the SMR reactor.
      .

      • Curbina

        But wasn’t the process about production of metal sponges? You imply sponges were used, not produced.

        • Ged

          I don’t know if that has ever been definitely said, just assumed (by us, the community) as a possibility due to the potential connections with Johnson Matthey?

          • Curbina

            It was mentioned by Mats Lewan as a piece of information received from one of the persons that has been in the plant, AFAIK.

          • Ged

            Sounds like we will have to go look it back up again :).

          • No major problem. At least I know that it hasn’t created any significant friction between AR and Hydrofusion.

          • Omega Z

            To the contrary, It appears they are still partnered up. Possibly more so then before.

            I always suspected issues were created to eliminate certain investors when IH entered the scene. Those like the German’s with the used car history. There were some here at ECW whose eyebrows raised up when these licenses came on board. Don’t know about Europe, but in the U.S., car salesman are looked down on and people try to avoid any associations.

          • No. Just an hypothesis, if I ever mentioned it. Derived from the name of the company as disclosed in the latest document provided to the court by IH.

          • Curbina

            Thanks for clearing that up Mats.

          • Curbina

            I feel I have To clarify that I dont think Rossi is a liar nor that the e-cat is a scam. I, as all here (My guess) want To know the truth, and the ideas exposed here dont make much sense given what we know or think we know so far.

          • Ged

            Well, it is murky because we lack information, so folks rightly speculate what could fit what we know, as then we can look through the scraps of info we’ve got (or will get) for any leads that match the predictions from the different hypothesis.

            It’s tough when we have so little to work with and all sides are reluctant to give anything away as they fight this out.

        • SG

          “Advanced derivatives of…”

        • Engineer48

          Hi Cubina,

          I passed on what Mats contacts mentioned they briefly saw through a partly opened door.

          Their statement about metal sponges was never questioned. Maybe they saw containers of metal sponges and assumed production when they were actually waiting to be used?

          Who knows?

          What we do kmow is metal sponges are used with SMR.
          .

          • GiveADogABone

            Thought I would post my updated bullet points :-
            catalyst(nickel) used not made
            no steam plume on roof or heat signature
            no major heat release to factory building
            heavy goods traffic maybe two tankers per day
            no noisy machinery
            mains water supply to Ht Xchg to cool to 60C
            steam from E-cat
            endothermic reaction
            continuous process
            SMR+FT is hardly a trade secret
            SMR+FT is an industrial process
            containerized small SMR+FT plants available
            raw materials into SMR are methane(gas main) or water(town’s water)
            process water recirculates continuously
            process gas circulated through SMR and FT
            most product out of FT is liquid but some solid
            liquid hydrocarbon output can be pumped away to another location

          • Alain Samoun

            And how many workers in this two plants/building 24/7 for +1year?

          • Ged

            Uh huh. What proof do you have of your claim? Oh right, none. Just like apparently you lied to the community about having “Rossi’s” data, for as soon as IH released a little bit of summary we saw it disproved your rhetoric spectacularly. So now that we have established you made up those previous claims, where is that 10 page reported that “looks like it worked”, or did you make that up too?

            You give rhetoric and no data; bogus misdirection and no substance. Not one bit of real numbers: what planet do you live on then? So allow me to summarily crush the empty shell your mind games have become:

            The place has a 4′ by 4′ square vent, that comes to 67″ diagonal. Now, the fan is on the roof and we can see it is physically fine and could not be “hanging” down, so that is yet another apparently made up fabrication. I assume you saw the roof pictures, so you should recognize this http://m.industrialfansdirect.com/site/industrialfansdirect1/default?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.industrialfansdirect.com%2FMerchant2%2Fmerchant.mvc%3F#2613 That little 42″ diagonal roof exhaust fan would vent the 1 MW of heat (and easily 600 MW). But, if you want some headroom, you could also opt for http://m.industrialfansdirect.com/site/industrialfansdirect1/default?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.industrialfansdirect.com%2FIND-FA-R-TXB%2FSP-TXB42RHULXH3S.html Now there are two spots to put these, and the sat images show there is one of this sort directly over the customer area, and in particular the exchanger like vent. Then you have the smaller vents, including the shiny new piping they put in for this plant according to the internal images, and the large AC feeding the office area but which could be repurposed. None of them are necessary of course, as we see our one roof vent has no issues in principal.

            The two fans hanging inside the place near the loading doors are irrelevant and not needed–that is how easy it is to vent this much energy.

          • TOUSSAINT francois

            Nice reply !

          • sam

            You have to wonder if A.R. did the something like that with the
            Ecat test in Florida.
            Made it look like the tests were
            not done properly even though
            the Ecat worked.
            Did this when A.R and T.D started feuding.
            I think that the Email is the most troubling
            thing I have heard about A.R.

  • Ged

    1.75 MW air cooled heat exchangers that need just 35k CFM for dissipaiting that total load and look just like what we see in the customer area disagree with your heat statement. Can we put that to bed now? You say stuff, but I don’t see you provide facts or math to back yourself up most the time.

    • Ged

      I definitely share your a criticism of the SRM and associated hypotheses. But there are some interesting points to make.

      1) Modular SRM plants are actually container sized now and would fit in the space we see (inside a container too) http://members.igu.org/html/wgc2003/WGC_pdffiles/10070_1045844893_15523_1.pdf

      2) This is a major critique for this particular version. Hydrocarbons would have to be removed from site, but one would have to do the math on the kg produced per day to know the requirements. But I am doubtful it could be done. Normal SMR and safe venting of the hydrogen below the lower explosive limit would be easy though given the space and what we see.

      3) and 5) Methane would not be provided compressed in cylinders or anything, but through the normal natural gas utility hookups. The hookups for the heavy manufacturing zoning the location is in should be more than sufficient to provide the methane rates necessary. The infrastructure for that point is actually already in place, the only question is if it was actually used or fed into that particular unit in the building, which is unknown.

      4) We have no data on what OSHA did or did not do, so there is no way to know if this point is meaningful or not. We know there were some sort of regulatory permits and hoops jumped through, but not their nature (other than the nuclear regulatory ones).

      6) derivatives could mean way too many things for us to draw conclusions. It is just too darn vague to limit our parameter spaced based on that letter head alone.

      Just my thoughts on those interesting points you raise.

      • Alain Samoun

        Also how many workers are needed to run these plants 24 hours for 1 year?

      • GiveADogABone

        2) SMR produces a 50/50 mix of H2 and CO. That is the old towns gas mix. The H2 will rise under its own buoyancy in the open and I did not see it as a major problem. The CO is another story; that is just lethal. That is the point at which I changed to SMR+FT so that all CO was removed. The consequence of encapsulating the energy in liquids and solids instead is that transport is needed; about two road tankers per day.

        The road tanker filling facility would have needed storage tanks, unless a tanker trailer was always parked. Seems to me an oil pipe was needed to move the tanker filling point some distance away.

        • Thomas Kaminski

          As I recall, paraffin could also be an output of the FT process. Is it solid? Could it be stored on pallets and loaded onto a truck?

          • GiveADogABone

            The FT process produces a wide spread in ‘n’ as in H-(n(CH2))-H. As you know already n=1 is Methane. I have since seen a statement that the process can get up to n=100+. Paraffin WAX(a solid at room temperature) is stated as a product of the FT process, as are things like diesel, aviation kerosene and paraffin(liquid) itself, so the word ‘paraffin’ appears in both a liquid and a solid context.

            I would think steel 40 gallon drums for the WAX where it can go solid. Also you would not try to pump it down a small bore pipe without heating all the way. I see the liquid hydrocarbons being piped some distance to the tanker filling point.

    • bfast

      This is an interesting analysis. If I understand correctly, you have presented a possible production technology that would “consume” the heat generated by the e-cat, not a production technology that you know was used.

      However, this analysis should give IH serious pause to reconsider their position. I understand that for one whole year they had free and open access to everything that was exiting the e-cat container, and everything coming back in. This knowledge alone should have been totally sufficient to confirm whether the e-cat was working as suggested. Their belief that they can know nothing without looking into the building on the other side is rather, well, silly.

      • GiveADogABone

        There is always room for other hypotheses to be tested in competition but this one hits a lot of my bullet points, as listed below. One of the bullet points is an endothermic reaction which CH4+H2O->CO+3H2 is and the reaction must be continuous for a year. CH4 comes from the gas mains(not proven as yet) and H2O comes from the towns mains, so no lorries needed for that.

        Pile up all the bullet points and what are the probabilities compared to the competition?

  • Jed, read again please. NOT depolymerisation. Working temperatures taken into account in the processes suggested.

    • psi2u2

      Oops.

    • Yes—you might have noticed that I published three other links from JM Davy’s website below (originally published by GiveADogABone under a previous ECW post).

  • Jed, I think you should also consider Ged’s report of observations regarding fans and ventilation, which differ significantly from your claim about ‘a broken fan hanging from an unused vent.’ I can’t see that you recognised this. (BTW this post just proved that only a few tens of kW had to be managed anyway).

    The 0.0 bar has also been discussed and it’s possible, and even normal, to create a flow by having a slight negative pressure at the other end.

    • JedRothwell

      Ged’s report does overrule a photograph. Perhaps you suggesting I should believe him instead of my lying eyes. See Exhibit 26.

      0.0 bar is not possible. It is ridiculous.

      A few tens of kilowatts is not possible. It is also not possible to fit one of these machines into the warehouse:

      http://www.jmprotech.com/images-uploaded/files/JM Methanol Brochure.pdf

      They wouldn’t fit. Plus you are not allowed to put one in a commercial or residential zoned area.

      • Ged

        And that means you did not have “Rossi’s data”, contrary to your numerous claims and misrepresentations. You had no context to even know if it was a month or not, so you did not actually even have data, as the number of points in a real dataset would have informed you. You had nothing real, no actual data from Rossi or anyone else at all, yet you claimed you did unequivocally.

        You lied. Deliberately, knowingly, and on numerous occasions. You lied to me, and to the entire community.

        • JedRothwell

          You wrote: “And that means you did not have “Rossi’s data”, contrary to your numerous claims and misrepresentations.”

          No, it means I did have the data. I quoted the same numbers as Exhibit 5, (36,000 kg and 0.0 bar). So either I had the data, or I am in cahoots with I.H. Do you think I magically came up with the same numbers by coincidence? Or by ESP?

          “You lied. Deliberately, knowingly, and on numerous occasions.”

          You are out of your ever-loving mind. I said “36,000” repeatedly. I.H. Exhibit 5 confirms me. And you, out of the blue, say it proves I was lying?!? How does that work? Because I did not get every detail right, that means the 36,000 was a coincidence?

          • Ged

            Because you claimed to have Rossi’s data, but you didn’t. You didn’t even know what you claimed could only be for one month as Exhibit 5 dates directly, while saying it was “Rossi’s data” and for the whole time. You lied Jed, you had no data, you did not have “Rossi’s data”, and even exhibit 5 gives more info then you had and it provides no actual data since it references something not included by IH. You lied pure and simple. So what else are you lying about?

        • Alan DeAngelis

          Not to belabor the point but I think a synthetic fuel pilot plant would look more like the one that Audi has. They might be doing something else related to the sponge metal process there.
          http://www.dailymanagementreview.com/photo/art/grande/7782747-12058569.jpg?v=1431451803

          • Alan DeAngelis

            PS
            The point I’m making is that it is outside and away from other buildings.

          • GiveADogABone

            Smaller and not a problem inside.

          • Mark

            wow that one really does look similar to the size of the item in the warehouse. I think it’s great what you have done here, I really do, I just wish there was some way of confirming that is what is in the warehouse. What you have done so far is prove it can be done – but we still have no evidence that is WHAT was done.

          • Ged

            Exactly, and that is an important caveat to keep in mind. We know what could be, all the possibilities given what we physically see that could fit that evidence, but in no way do we have any evidence of what -actually- was or was not done, yet, and “could be”s are not evidence of what was.

          • GiveADogABone

            I am tempted to suggest that the sizes are identical for the simple reason that they are both standard iso transport containers that would go on a lorry or a container ship 🙂

            Confirmation will have to wait for the court case, I reckon. Very true, but probing the probabilities enables you to see a bit further.

          • Mark

            sounds reasonable

          • Mark

            by the way what in the input to the shipping container size one you have posted – 1MW thermal?

          • GiveADogABone
          • Alan DeAngelis

            I’m sure it would fit inside but why is it outside?

          • GiveADogABone

            OK. Being as it is you, I will photoshop the background.

      • Ged

        Wow. I can’t believe you would try to sound so intentionally “ignorant”, or just misdirecting again and hoping no one will challenge you and fact check? Or is it just an especially potent case of cognitive dissonance? Let’s take apart your statements, ’cause it is fun and educational.

        The photos condemn you, not help you, and show you are making your proofless statements up. Take for instance the satellite photos that clearly show the large roof exhaust fan over the customer side (barely visible in Exhibit 26, but you can still see it), AC and smaller vents, and the one showing the large roof vent on the plant side respectively, exactly as I said (courtesy of Engineer48): http://a.disquscdn.com/uploads/mediaembed/images/4105/1446/original.jpg http://a.disquscdn.com/uploads/mediaembed/images/4105/1450/original.jpg .

        A modular SMR plant would fit with no problem in the space we see used: http://members.igu.org/html/wgc2003/WGC_pdffiles/10070_1045844893_15523_1.pdf . All just a matter of scale.

        The location is an industrial zoning, heavy manufacturing, it is not commercial or residential zoned: http://a.disquscdn.com/uploads/mediaembed/images/4119/400/original.jpg

        • Obvious

          The fan vent with cobwebs, and the sealed shut skylight.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Obvious,

            As the JMP plant area pictures were taken prior to the plant startup, why would that be unexpected?

            Also do note that you are accepting there was a roof fan that IH failed to photograph and mention when it stated there was no way to vent any heat?
            .

          • Obvious

            The fans were inspected much later in the “Test”.
            The roof fan is the same as the rest in the complex. It is not made to clear out a respectable portion of 1 MW.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Obvious,

            Other engineers do not agree with that analysis of the fan’s heat removal capability. They did give examples and not just make statements.
            .

          • Obvious

            If the fan was replaced with one designed to do the job, and was fed with an unrestricted duct of 30″ diameter, it might remove the heat from the process. This is in addition to the normal warehouse ventilation. Show me where this large duct is, and the where the high CFM fan is, and it’s unrestricted exit point. Otherwise we wait for Discovery. At which point, if these documents, reports and photos are made public, I expect a group conniption here.

          • Ged

            The fan is larger than those I linked that could clear out that heat and more without an issue. Do you have the model number of the actual roof vent fan in question so we can look up its specs, and support your statement?

          • Ged

            You don’t need ESP. Rossi once said early on it was averaging (note: averaging) 36 m^3/day in flow when selling the ideal case. You even mentioned that once. All you had to do was take that number, claim you saw the ERV report, oh wait just a portion of the report, oh wait just “Rossi’s data”, and then claim what that supposed dataset says, all while never leaving the comfort of a single statement.

            You didn’t need any actual data, like you claimed you had to have those number to inflate and misrepresent. No ESP. Just lying, pure and simple, as you obviously never had any -actual- data or you would have had all the context to know if it was a month or the whole time and you would not have been disproven by IH’s small summary (you were -wrong- ahead of time). Or you lied about making a mistake and were intentionally misleading everyone about the duration of your dataset? In any case you make it, you lied to the community, willfully.

          • Ged

            They are shown in Exhibit 26 and I linked them, and you will notice no fan hanging down from inside the vent (impossible with a roof exhaust unless the roof is compromised), contrary to your claim which is clearly false.

            You will also notice that I linked you two -smaller- exhaust fans than what is here, which could exhaust all 1 MW and more. If you look at the picture where two people can be seen giving scake, you’ll see the exhaust fan on the roof is quite large, and again quite larger than industrial fans capable already of venting more than 1 MW, as all one needs is 17k-23k CFM for that.

            Real numbers and actually looking at the evidence obliterates your unsupported bogus claims and sometimes straight up lies (e.g. the flow “data”; the “broken fan hanging from an unused vent”)

          • GiveADogABone

            Perhaps just a hint at where you could store some hydrocarbon products?

            http://www.e-catworld.com/2016/04/29/photos-of-1mw-plant-address/
            builditnow 4 months ago
            Photo’s of two containers parked out the back of JM Products, “maybe”, to be verified as the correct address and office space. …

          • Obvious

            I know these photos are early. (It’s not like I can see cobwebs in the Exhibit photo). The other photos will probably turn up within a year.

          • Ged

            Alright, provide the data and proof please.

  • Barbierir

    Personally it didn’t surprised me much, did you read how he revoked the license to Prometeon? It was equal or worse. Rossi could be a genius but he’s also a hardened and ruthless businessman. Also people who worked with him have always said he’s a very demanding and difficult guy to work with.

  • GiveADogABone

    You are, of course, welcome. The most difficult bit was driving that drawing program for the process chart. Wouldn’t have happened without Mats putting on the pressure.

  • Bruce__H

    This doesn’t strike me as a thermal analysis. It is more like wish list.
    – Where do the listed temperatures of the outputs come from? Are these actual specs from one of the SMR systems already on the market?
    – How does one calculate the relative proportions of waste heat vs heat embodied by the products? Isn’t this what you really need for a thermal analysis?
    – These processes require high temperatures and pressures. Doesn’t that imply a noisy steamy plant? Are there any videos of one of these plant in action?

  • AbyssUK

    A small scale SMR plant.. hmm what about the produced sulphur waste and CO2 ? I can’t believe they would just dump it into the atmosphere, doesn’t florida have carbon emission laws ?? Would they need a license ? Could we find said license ???

    • GiveADogABone

      I have no knowledge of the Sulphur levels in the local gas supply or the Florida emissions laws and licensing. We are discussing the Florida Gas company’s main supply system here. If this plant is discharging a problem then so are the rest of the company’s customers. This plant underwent some form of regulatory approval but we do not know the details AFAIK.

  • Honestly, I’m not so surprised. At one point in my book I discuss Rossi’s character and his potential tendency to make his own rules. As a matter of fact, I would say that one clear part of his character is his strong determination to reach the goals he has set for himself, and in order to reach those goals, he’s capable of doing a lot of things you wouldn’t maybe expect. I think the best way to collaborate with such a person is to be totally transparent and open. If you start to have your own agenda, and you hide it, sooner or later you will get into a collision with Rossi, which I think is what has happened several times, IH included.

    • sam

      But do you not think A.R. should have been more honest and open with Hydrofusion.
      If they knew he did not want to work with them they likely
      would see it would not work.
      My guess is A.R. looks back
      and says man I handled that
      situation poorly.
      Or if he doesn’t he should.

  • Alan DeAngelis

    I didn’t mean to rain on the parade. I reread my comments and they sounded like that’s what I was trying to do. I dwelled on the negatives so I feel obliged to come up with some positive points. Being an old fart chemist I have some fixed ideas of what a pilot plants looks like and where they belong. On the other hand, if they’ve worked out all the bugs and it is a reliable reactor, maybe it could be as safe as a typical gas home furnace. And although the building reminds me of a cosmetic batching factory, we know that cosmetic factories can store 55 gallon drums of alcohol if they are properly grounded. Sometimes it just takes a while for people to come around to your way of thinking.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qvpcfYFHcw

    • Alan DeAngelis

      PS
      I still have one nagging thought: LENR will eventually displace hydrocarbons as a source of energy even in jet plane engines (especially airplanes because a good part of a plane’s take off weight is its hydrocarbons). This will create an oil glut.
      We’ll need hydrocarbons for plastics, lubricants and a few other things but so little that the AGW hysteria will disappear. It would be more profitable for JM to concentrate on manufacturing sponge nickel. Making the fuel (nickel) for E-Cats with E-Cats would be a force multiplier.

      • GiveADogABone

        There is a big market for containerized steam methane reformers (+ back end H2 generators) for making hydrogen at filling stations for cars that run on hydrogen.

        websearch containerized steam methane reformer
        e.g.
        Small-scale reforming systems for hydrogen refuelling stations – ISQ
        http://www.isq.pt/EN/HttpHandlers/FileHandler.ashx?id=108&menuid=843Only a few actors offer novel technologies as alternatives to steam-reforming. … In the short term, compact and containerized plants are the appropriate solution since ….. Reactions are given below considering methane as feedstock: CH4 + ½ …

    • GiveADogABone

      I dwelled on the negatives so I feel obliged to come up with some positive points.
      I wish more people here at ECW did the same.