Alan Smith’s Third LION Control Experiment

Alan Smith of Looking for Heat is now working on a third LION control experiment. He says that the purpose of this one is to bake all the ingredients that are found in the LION reactor to see which effects might be purely thermal, and which might be LENR related.

So this is kind of a shake and bake experiment — pack all the ingredients everything into a quartz tube in some presumably random order, and heat it all up together in the Model T reactor at 800 C, which is apparently the temperature that LION used with his experiments.

The ingredients he is putting inside the tube are: K26 brick dust, magnesium oxide, copper wire fragments, a small fragment of fuel tube with 2 diamonds, zinc plated steel bolts and Cu wrapping, broken quartz, silver leaf, kanthal wire,

You can see some photos of this at this post on the LENR Forum: https://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/thread/5518-mfmp-lfh-lion2-100-replication-well-beyond-lion1/?postID=81102#post81102

Alan has sent me some data from the test so far which can be found in this Excel File:

LION 3rd CONTROL

Alan’s notes to me:

“It shows dead flat line once I had settled on the correct voltage which is the first little wiggles in the line.
Also please note that there is an offset in the Xcel figure for temp – it is +400, so just under 400 is actually just under 800”

He says there are about 18 hours to go in the test.

  • artefact

    Last thing I heard was in about one month.

    • Bob Greenyer

      We have to wait for the baked discs to soak for 1 month – that is the protocol. On both sides of the ponds LFH (Alan Smith and co, UK) and MFMP (Alan Goldwater, US) the discs went in for the soak a few days back.

      • Anon2012_2014

        In the future you may be able to speed the soak process the right voltage on the disk to drive the deuterium faster into the disks similar to what was done in wetcells. I would image that it takes time for the deuterium to permeate back out of the disks.

        • Bob Greenyer

          It may very well be that all it needs is a few minutes from coming out of the oven – however, this is a replication.

          In practical terms, the 5 week lead time is nothing – especially since you can process 10,000s in a small amount of apparatus.

          Moreover, I think that you only need 1 disk, as it is only like the ‘ovary’ that spits out the nucleated active component. Furthermore my understanding would suggest aligning the diamond tips in the Nickel with the field of the heating solenoids magnetic field – so specific optimisation of the diamond in Nickel will be advantageous.

          • Anon2012_2014

            Can’t wait to find out how it works. Good luck Bob, Alan and Alan.

        • Alan Smith

          Electrolytic loading is a distinct possibility- but- that since the fiamonds have very low conductivity that would load the nickel preferentially – and currently after a week in the oven the nickel probably has a jolly nice oxide coat which wouldn’t help. If I had to guess I think the D2O is forming hydrogen bonds on the carbon surface – D and OD groups – and that as reading the literature will tell you this makes them into prodigously efficient thermionic emitters.

          • The Director

            You are absolutely correct: a diamond surface terminated with H and OH or D and OD groups produces a surface with Negative Electron Affinity — which means there is no barrier for electrons moving out of the surface into external space. There is still a “work function” (the electrons don’t move for free) but the barrier that would bar them from jumping out from the diamond is now gone. The applied heat, light, electricity, or other stimulation provides the input that provides the work to move the electrons.

            I seriously believe the doping in the LION reactor is poor which means there is an enormous amount of room for improvement, even when using only hydrogen or deuterium. A combination of oxygen and lithium would produce an NEA and an even lower work function that would survive even higher temperatures.

            The good thing here is that as long as the terminating agent is still around at elevated temperatures (water vapor, hydrogen, lithium vapor, etc) more atoms will be added as some are broken off. This will allow the diamonds to retain their NEA and low work function at higher temperatures than possible in a vacuum. Without such an atmosphere, there wouldn’t be an NEA surface using O and OH or D and OD surface groups at 1000C plus.

      • Jag Kaurah

        Would soaking under pressure speed it up?

  • Alan Smith

    My first set of discs has been in soak for one week as of today. The second batch has just been put into soak. So we are looking at 3 weeks from now.

    • Do you have enough disks to run the experiment at various soak times? There might be some valuable data points in tracking magnitude of the effect versus loading %.

      • Alan Smith

        I have almost 1000, which is enough for 30-50 experiments. I can assure you that all variables will be checked.

  • Alan Smith

    Alumina foam is what K26 bricks are mostly made from, and K26 bricks are what Model T reactors are made from. What other kind of alumina foam did you have in mind?.

    • Bruce__H

      My reading had led me to think that the alumina foam in the Model T was mostly aluminum oxide with minor impurities and addition of whatever foaming agent was (which to my surprise often seems to be sucrose). It think regular firebricks are mostly silicon oxide with a major inclusion of aluminum oxide.

      • Alan Smith

        Be careful what you read. And regular firebricks are not involved in any way.

  • Alan Smith

    Where is the evidence for transmission? Where is the data? Lots of riddles and cool pictures, but not seeing convincing, clear, objective, repeatable evidence. Maybe focus on repeating excess heat first?

    Why do you think my research and haredware company is called ‘Lookingforheat.com? 🙂

    • Axil Axil

      What about the 36,000 joules of electric current that powered the 20 watt light bulb?

      • Engineer48

        Hi Axil,

        Bssed on what evidence?

        Sorry but Show Me The Data. Ie a video showing meters displaying and recording the voltage and current for 30 minutes.

        • Axil Axil

          perform the replication yourself and take all the data that you need. If not, then forget all about it.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Axil,

            When someone makes a claim, others have a right to ask to see the data so they can judge the validity of the claim.

            With Lion we have several claims but no measurement data to back them up.

          • Axil Axil

            Well you can just wait for LIONs data as all theorist must wait on the results of the experimenters.

            If you are impatient then do the experiment yourself as many are now doing.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Axil,

            Lion presented zero test data.

            Instead he sent Bob 2 failed reactors.

            I’m not holding my breath that Alan will measure significant excess heat.

            Do really hope my engineer’s gut feeling is wrong.

          • Axil Axil
          • Engineer48

            Hi Axil,

            I believe in the scientific method and experimental data.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method

          • Anon2012_2014

            I am hopeful at least one out of the three (Alan, Bob and Alan) will show us an excess heat or electric power demonstration. The good thing is that IF they do, then Alan Smith will sell you a kit for a few thousand dollars so you can replicate it yourself in your garage or basement lab. This means that if they replicate, unlike Rossi, BLP, and the others, we will have very quickly the positive results of the experiment disseminated to industrial and academic third parties around the world. The experiment either works (large amounts of incontrovertible excess heat), or it doesn’t (ambiguous or negative results.) Let’s just say that the odds are even for success (because we really have no idea what LION saw) and wait out the three weeks.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Anon,

            Have discussed the tests with Alan. He is being very careful to fully document every run he does. Including emissions.

            Alan understands and follows the scientific method.

    • Engineer48

      Hi Alan,

      100% correct approach.

      Demo very significant reliable and repeatable excess heat. Share a reactor design and fuel recipe / preprocessing technique that is highly reproducible.

      They others can start looking for faces in clouds, rhymatic chants, magic jewels and fairies dancing at the bottom of the garden.

    • Axil Axil

      Is not the micrographs of the fuel particles that ME356 and ECCO have used to show transmutation convincing?

      • Alan Smith

        I am not a person who needs to be convinced about LENR Axil.

  • PhysicsForDummies

    I think that repeatable transmutations would be even more solid evidence of LENR than excess heat. With excess heat, people will still argue calorimetry error as long as they can. A before and after fuel sample with clear transmutations would be irrefutable, unless they somehow figure out a new hack to the standard model to explain it.

  • Alan Smith

    Thank you Tim. The results of slicing and dicing the 3rd control tube will be a few days, since I’m awaiting the arrival of a materials expert to teach me how it’s done professionally. Then I’ll publish the data, and the pics..

  • Axil Axil
  • TVulgaris

    Calibrating your setup and a FULL analysis of the controls is THE way to get accurate, precise, reliable data and true reproducability.

  • Bob Greenyer

    You’ll see – and I think you’ll agree, it is important.

  • Anon2012_2014

    Tim — the riddles, poly-hypotheses, and cool pictures are a side show to keep those who are interested in such speculations amused while the experimental controls are setup. All three (Alan, Bob, and Alan) are looking to measure the excess heat. They should have results in 2 to 3 weeks. In the interim, you can either ignore the poly-hypotheses or make some up of your own instead of playing video games, i.e. whatever amuses you. The real analysis work starts when they have complete data files of an experiment that they think is producing excess heat and a complete experimental setup. I believe that, for example, Alan Smith has documented the the complete experimental setup on his blog (and even sells parts and materials so you can replicate it yourself.

    If we can prove the excess heat hypothesis by non-chemical, then the hypotheses become interesting to explain the “new physics”.

  • Alan Smith

    Fo those who might be wondering, a delay in analysis of this sample, the materials guy who is doing the autopsy is unexpectedly on the sick list, and now we have an Arctic weather bomb to make things worse!. However, it will happen, just requires a little patience.

    • Bob Greenyer

      Tell me about it, -8ºC here (not an issue) but means I have ill kids or they need to be kept warm and entertained.

      • Alan Smith

        It’s a plague year Bob. Stay well!

        • Bob Greenyer

          Thanks – I expect the kids will be better, then I will get it. Grrr.

  • Alan Smith

    Thanks Charlie- We’re ok for now, and also K26 are not quite pure Alumina. But a very kind offer I won’t forget.

  • Alan Smith

    Here are a couple of data-plots from a dummy-run using part-prepared diamonds (soaked for 7.5 days in D20, not 30. They were pre-baked for 7 days. Maybe a tiny amount of anomalous heat there, but no cream cakes. The most interesting thing is in the lower graph showing a steadily rising trend in radiation count. Thermo 0 is the ‘live’ port, thermo 1 is the control.

    Hot plot – rad count is way down in the clutter along the bottom line.

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/b1a085453e705cf8eb08b273c34550ca70472f951c3e42acebbe61cfe527bbb4.jpg

    Expanded ‘clutter zone’ with trend line for radiation detected using a Netto Geiger with SBM-20 tube 6 cms from the live fuel tube

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/4ef6f814837a88db30a88825448d44879ed6dd67d1d997c753b24c47273cea7d.jpg

    • Frank Acland

      Alan, is this reactor different from the control tube you had provided data for previously in the third LION control experiment?

      • Alan Smith
        • magicsnd1

          I’m a bit confused by this picture. It looks like the silvered end of the core tube is on the outside. Or perhaps that is the sealing bolt, covered in cement. But if so, the copper winding would end a bit short of the sealing bolt, as shown in the images from LION.

          • Alan Smith

            It is backasswards, deliberately.. LION is in the habit of doing this to give the cement seals on his fuel tube a little extra baking. He sets the PID to 200C and puts the tube in as shown above for a few hours. Then removes, rotates, reinserts and runs.

          • magicsnd1

            Aha, thanks for that.Clever way of curing the cement.

      • Alan Smith

        Hi Francis. The 3rd control (the witches brew) was not run in a model T – because I used a slightly larger Quartz tube, and so built a special -single port – reactor to hold it. Everything else has been done using a Model T as shown below, which is a pretty perfect clone of LION’s own system , which of course was also built by me..

    • Engineer48

      Hi Alan,

      So this radiation passed through a 1mm alumina fuel tube wall, then through 2 layers of 0.5mm Cu wire (1mm total), then through 1mm of quartz tube wall and finally through 3mm of foamed alumina?

      That suggests the Beta (electrons and/or positrons) radiation may have started out at over 1 MeV.

      Can you analyse the spectrum?

      • Anon2012_2014

        Why beta, and not gamma from a primary or secondary source, or even neutrons interacting with the local environment to make some ionizing radiation counts??

        • Engineer48

          Hi Anon,

          We need to consider this experimental data from McKubre as to the observed reactions and emissions.

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/2a0fccc26b5617052bcbae69a0e15eb0c85cb4e08a1de9a9f8589e7eaa6eba12.png

          • Anon2012_2014

            Exactly my point Engineer48. Very few of the proposed reactions are producing beta.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Anon,

            Need to consider Beta decay from altered lattice elements when protons flip into neutrons or neutrons into protons.

            For me the Betas say transmutation of lattice atoms are occuring from the proton and neutron releases from the alternate D+D fusion pathways.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/617ae9d401b9dc5ebe6c2d92774d6af195335ecb3076ff9aa556f6d36778090f.png

          • Anon2012_2014

            Less than 10% of these proposed nuclear reaction will end with a beta decay. This is the least of our signals. I think everything ends in gamma from bremsstrahlung when the particle from a decay or a neutron activation or the original nuclear reaction strikes a something else. Yes, even those 1 MEV tritium’s on your table above above when they hit something are going to leave some gamma that penetrates to the detector.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Anon,

            What I find interesting is the only time gammas are observed is when a lattice is initially loaded but as the loading continues they drop off to zero.

            Probably a surface effect as the D+D fusion sites are on the surface or very near to the surface.

            Lets hope Lion delivers the goods to Alan and real science can get stuck into working out any radiation signatute spectrum.

          • Anon2012_2014

            It could be from neutrons which are infrequent outside the reactor lattice structure; hence little direct measurable neutrons and long term but very slow growth in secondary radiation from thermal neutron (capture) activation.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Anon,

            Which is nuclear activity.

          • Stephen

            Even neutron capture leads to gamma emissions unfortunately. And these would be random encounters compared to a phonon or EM pulse.

            The proton proton cycle, and lithium cycles and CNO cycles along with slow neutron capture in latices have been discussed a lot here in the past especially a couple of years back. Bob actually contributed a huge amount to that discussion. So I think it is a bit of a mistake to assume he is missing it. I wouldn’t be surprised if we find out it even plays a role here with his recent ideas some how but I guess we will have to see.

            There has been much discussed since about how to achieve these kinds of reactions with out gamma or how the gamma can be absorbed.

            It’s this mechanism that does not yet have an agreed mechanism even if these kinds of reactions are in play. Some kind of machine or process at least is needed to be identified that can do that.

            Like you I have considered vibration of lattices as part of the process and collisions for light element fusion il to Lithium on a local scale either by high energy ion emmision from a nano particle or vibrations with in a nano crystal. And thought maybe Andrea Rossi device could be based on this kind of process.

            But even with this it is hard to explain transmutations of heavy elements with out any associated gamma. Slow Neutron capture or masked Proton Capture may play a role but the lack of associated high energy gamma would still need to be explained.

            It maybe that Bob had found another possible mechanism using spin or magnetism or something else I’m not sure yet exactly what his process is completely yet.

            There many ideas out there though but we need the data and signatures to decide which one works finally.

            Casting a wide net for data like with out preconditions as Bob is doing along with careful analytical work like Alan is doing is the best way to get that data I think.

          • Engineer48

            Hi Stephen,

            Needs to explain this as well:

            Evidence of electromagnetic radiation from Ni-H Systems

            http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/FocardiSevidenceof.pdf

      • Alan Smith

        Not quite the right shielding description. 1mm of fused alumina fuel-tube wall, 2 layers of 0.6mm Cu wire, 1.5mm of quartz tube liner, then 3 cms (approx) of foamed alumina. Since the overall count was low I didn’t bother with spectrum analysis- only post event data analysis showed the radiation trend-line. But I did briefly interpose 2mm of Al shielding between reactor and Geiger, (just watching gets boring after a while so you tend to do that stuff) which caused the count to drop back to the ‘normal’ background figure. That was curiosity rather than any proper attempt at spectral analysis. There was a Muon detector nearby, which didn’t reveal anything unexpected at all.

        • Engineer48

          Hi Alan,

          Ok so 1mm of fused alumina + 1.2mm of Cu wire + 1.2mm of quartz + 3mm of foamed alumina + 2mm of Al sheet dropped the geiger readings to background.

          Can anyone here work out the Beta energy for that amount of shielding?

    • Stephen

      Hi Alan,

      Just to get a better handle on things:

      Is the time axis in seconds?

      Is this plot also the full duration of the thermal heating part of the test?

      Did you continue taking rad counts after the heating was stopped?

      • Alan Smith

        T = Seconds, yes. There is some more thermal data, but not sorted yet, as I said this was a dummy run really, so full instrumentation was not deployed. No rad counts post heat, the fact that there was some radiation only became really apparent when we took a close look at the data. Plenty more tests to come.

    • Stephen Taylor

      Hi Alan, I did a quick search for diamond combustion temps and came away thinking they might start burning in air at around 800°C. Longer post just above. Hoping your controls will inform this area of uncertainty. Thanks in advance for any information you may develop.

    • Roger Barker

      Very interesting work you’ve done here Alan though I would inquire as to why the lack of calorimetry?

      • Alan Smith

        Ooooh Roger! You’re always so impatient.

        • Roger Barker

          Will the calorimetry be done as part of Lion 4?

  • Stephen Taylor

    Hi Alan, a brief internet search regarding diamond combustion has me considering the apparent loss of diamond material in Lion 2 diapads as possibly simple burning in air at ≤800°C. (There appears to be a broad range of combustion temps depending on oxygen availability so it’s a bit fuzzy on brief investigation.)

    I do hope your analysis of this important control run will shed light on this.

    Do you have any idea when the salami may be sliced? The diapads will survive this slicing intact as I imagine the process so it should be apparent if there is a loss of diamond material?

    • Alan Smith

      Hi Stephen. The fact that the LION protocol does not totally exclude oxygen from the sealed fuel-tube has bothered me too. I have (as Baldrick would say) a cunning plan for dealing with this.
      Salami slicing is on hold, not only is the butcher still on the sick list, but during the course of this week we are moving into a brand new lab around 4x the size of the old one. As we have several tons of equipment, furniture and supplies to move as well as sorting out new lighting and so on it is (as you might imagine) going to take a little time. We hope to be fully operational again (with enhanced capacity) by the 14th March.

      • Stephen Taylor

        Thanks for the reply Alan. The shortage of oxygen is a major hurdle in trying to explain the small quantity of missing diamond material as having been oxidized. I’m very pleased to hear that you are concerned about limiting any room for this mundane explanation confusing the issue. We know how intense the hunt will be for any explanations that exclude LENR.

        Happy to know you are moving into the new lab. Your efforts are very much appreciated.

  • sam

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