Rossi: E-Cat QX Control System ‘Final’, Resolving Problems with Financial Partnerships (Update: Expects Industrial Production in 2018)

I found this comment from Andrea Rossi on the Journal of Nuclear Physics interesting today:

Andrea Rossi
August 28, 2017 at 7:24 AM
JPR:
We are continuing to work very well. Now the control system is final.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

I followed up with a question and got a response:

Frank Acland
August 28, 2017 at 7:53 AM
Dear Andrea,

With the control system now final, are you able to move beyond the R&D phase to begin the industrialization process of the E-Cat QX?

Andrea Rossi
August 28, 2017 at 8:21 AM
Frank Acland:
The answer to this question is very complex. I can say that we are resolving problems, also for what concerns the partnerships necessary for the financial issues bound to the industrialization.
Basically, we are very close to Sigma 5 level of reliablity of the basic module and putting modules in parallel we can reach any power.
Hard work is on course. Our Team is getting greater by the day. As Maurizio Crozza says: ” We are not sharpening the tips of the Pyramids”.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

From Rossi’s response here, it seems that not only is the technical development going well, but also the financing. I would imagine that for Rossi, the latter is going to be more difficult. When working in his lab, he has control over what goes on, but as we have seen in the IH relationship, business can be more of a challenge than science and technology. Of course both need to be in place before any serious commercial production can begin. As usual, there is very little detail provided, so it’s hard to evaluate the state of things. Still, from what I have heard, the planned demonstration is still going ahead in the latter part of October, so that may turn out to be the kickoff event that will set the larger commercialization into motion.

UPDATE (August 29, 2017): I sent some more questions to Rossi yesterday.

Frank Acland
August 28, 2017 at 3:47 PM
Dear Andrea,

1. When you say your team is getting greater every day, does that mean greater in numbers, or greater in quality? AR: in reliabilty
2. Do you think you will have the necessary financial backing to get your robotized factories to start producing E-Cats in 2018? AR: yes
3. Will your robotized factories produce the control units as well as the E-Cats? AR: yes

  • Brokeeper

    Frank,
    It is beginning to look more encouraging industrialization will be realized this year depending on whether the ‘squirrels’ don’t eat through the wiring insulation again.
    By-the-way did you mean the latter part of October? Keep up the great journalism.

    • Frank Acland

      Hi Brokeeper,

      Yes, you are correct, it’s October, not November — Thanks for letting me know, I have made the correction!

    • Bruce Williams

      I greatly support your comment about Frank’s great journalism, what a long effort Frank, BRAVO !

  • Ophelia Rump

    That does not sound like the complete system has a final design yet.
    I hope Dottore Rossi brings in professional designers to complete the entire package design.

    • Miles

      When will the complete system be final? We’ve been waiting for years.

      • Ophelia Rump

        When I have one of my own, powering my personal needs. Until that day, it is either speculative or a rich mans power grab.

  • Banned Squirrel

    The race is on BLP vs ECAT QX, will be exciting to see who comes out on top

  • Luca Favero

    According that it works, the goal for Dr. Rossi shoud be to show to Elon Musk the invention and propose a Joint Venture for R&D and implementing. I can image a self propelled Tesla in 5-7 yrs and the release of the patent to other Automotive Company.

    • artefact

      I wouldn’t give a world changing invention with so much potential to a single company only.

    • Paul Smith

      Rossi said that propelling cars with his Cats requires about 20 years

      • Omega Z

        We live in a disconnected society. i.e., unaware of how things work in the real world.
        Fine Nickel powders-Toxic-Regulated.
        Lithium-Toxic-Regulated.
        Electronics-Toxic-Regulated.

        The above along with consumer safety issues equal a substantial amount of time to bring a NEW technological product to market. Of course, many will point out things like electric cars or cell phones which actually took decades to bring to market and both being direct descendants of 100 year old technology. These things only seem to have happened fast because we only recently became aware of them as a society in whole.

    • Omega Z

      Andrea Rossi meets Elon Musk.
      “an immovable object meets an unstoppable force”

      Yeah, That should work out quite well????
      Like mixing matter/anti-matter

      We’ve all heard that Rossi is hard to get along with and if you look behind the scenes, Elon is no better. Possibly worse as Elon’s associations with engineers tend to last only months before they move on.

      Of course, Elon lays blame on competitors poaching his employees, but one can’t help but notice this always happens shortly “AFTER” confrontations with said employees.
      —————————————————-
      A better match would be for Rossi to work with manufactures who build the components/accessories for other manufactures who merely assemble finished product. Possibly those who build engine blocks, electric motors or turbines. However, at this point, there is no ready made operations and all this will be R&D.

      • Ernest Dallafior

        GE is a company that possesses all of your requirements plus they have years of experience in producing and assembling alumina tubes into light sources not too different from the structures that have been shown for the quark E cat.

        • Omega Z

          There are a number of companies including Siemens, but with all of them, it would still require a lot of R&D. The closest resemblance product would be nuclear pellets.

          Even that isn’t a good comparison.as it is over engineered due to Radiation. But it may be a good starting point. Another approach may be similar to gas turbines.

  • pg

    Ok, it’s only been seven years since Rossi said he did it. See you guys in October.

    • Luca Meli

      I think the same way

  • Omega Z

    After Darden’s initial $11.5 million, I doubt any money was going in Rossi’s direction. I honestly would be surprised if much money in total went to LENR at all after the the Rossi deal. Likely the money Darden raised worked like many charities. Where 86% goes to management to maintain their jet set life style while only 14% went to actual R&D. One of the 1st priorities was likely Darden recovering all his initial out of pocket investment plus bonus/finders fee.

    As to “Resolving problems”. That’s an engineering problem being dealt with primarily by Rossi as it has been from the start. This is primarily an intellectual task. A lot of time. Not much in financial expense. At least not since Rossi started working with the QX. It can all be done on a table top.

    Time: It still hasn’t surpassed the time it took for Apple and their Billion$ to create the 1st I-phone.(all built with existing technology.)

    • Ingo Heinscher

      Maybe, but after seven years, a competent businessman would have investors of all kinds begging him for the allowance to invest into this technology. That is the big problem here: Talk with “sceptopaths”, they will still claim Rossi was a “con man”; they will still claim it isn’t real, etc.

      Seven years should be enough to prove them wrong in undeniable ways. Rossi wasn’t able to do that. Also, what happens if Rossi develops health problems? Is there an heir who can carry on the work?

      If by summer, latest, say, August of 2018, there is still no product by Rossi, there will likekly never be one. One day someone else might then do it, but that will take another ten years of development, starting mostly from scratch.

      To be clear: I do not believe Rossi was fooling people. I believe he is just not as good at the business side of things as it would be required.

      • Omega Z

        Developing a new technology is Very Hard. In real world time, 7 years is nothing. Japanese researchers have been at this for over 20 years. They have proven the effect is real. Making it usable is not easy. Many times, totally new materials are needed that never existed before.

        There have been many breakthroughs in the last 10/15 years where a product is still not available. Lithium air batteries can hold 4 times as much energy as the best battery on the market. But they have material issues to overcome before they can be manufactured for sale. Note that nobody is ready to put tons of money into these devices. There wont be until the issues are resolved.

        You know there are multiple people that’s credited to have invented the light bulb. I don’t know who was actually first as it seems to depend on what one recognizes as a light bulb. But I know who most give credit to. Edison made the 1st one that was practical and marketable.

        Rossi has only one chance to get this right. Once the secret is out, the big boys will be all over it. If the issues Rossi has with it aren’t solved before he starts producing them for market, he will be nothing but a footnote.

        AND, Rossi claims he has arrangements should something happen to him so the technology wont be lost.

        • Jas

          I agree with what you are saying but Rossi lets himself down by constantly boasting of his achievments. I wish he would just come out and say its going to take several years. I belive he has a working product but I think he needs to stop leading us on as every year we are told he is going to start production.

    • Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax

      Woodford knew what was happening with IH and Rossi and still put in $50 million for other LENR research. The money went into a new U.K. company, IHHI, and, while IHHI is allowing limited returns to some of the early investors, this is not planned for Darden and some other major investors. There is no clue of Darden claiming fees.

      I agree that more money for Rossi from any corporate investor has become very unlikely, because I assume that anyone making a large investment will research the history. Rossi v. Darden made the history, showing Rossi’s behavior, far more visible than it had ever been, and much of it is now documented openly. The reward IH got for trusting Rossi with $11.5 million, enabling him to continue his research, was a dead loss of their $20 million total investment (probably) plus perhaps $5 million in legal fees and rising, with it being unlikely that they would recover more than a portion of the legal fees, because of legal technicalities, mainly estoppel. That is, they didn’t object vigorously, but allowed Rossi to continue, and did not threaten or plan to sue him.

      Rossi abandoned his lawsuit, with his newer lawyer, Lukacs, finding a way for him to save face by negotiating for the return of the license. To IH, the value of the license had become highly speculative, they readily gave it up to avoid further costs and risks. This is all obvious to anyone who studies the case documents in detail and at length. By looking at cherry-picked this and that, some may continue to deny the obvious.

      Rossi v. Darden did not prove that Rossi had no technology. It showed, beyond doubt, his actual business practices and how what he wrote could not be trusted, and how dangerous it could be to deal with him as angel investors. (The tolerance was used to accuse them of deceiving him by not protesting.) When IH invested, there were plausible arguments for disregarding obvious appearances (as described by Mats Lewan). With investment and investigation, those generally vanished.

      • LION

        Hi Abd,
        I see you are not too busy to BLOG, so if you could get back to me about the LR 115 that would be great. If you don’t want to that is fine too, please just let me know here. THANKS.
        All the best.

        • Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax

          Send another email. Using ECW this way is inefficient and offensive. You could comment on coldfusioncommunity.net, where I can delete fluff of no public interest. I think I may have lost your email.

      • Omega Z

        The fact that for Woodfords investment, they received IHHI shares pretty well rebuts your “no clue of Darden claiming fees”. This would dilute Dardens investment. ie, Darden now has less shares for his original investment.

        The question is how much of Woodfords investment did Darden pocket. Legally, Darden could pocket it all. He has zero obligation to trade dollars for dollars. ie, not obligated to sell shares to Woodford for what Darden has invested in them. As standard business practice goes, I would speculate that Darden recovered all that he had invested in IH and more.

        Rossi received primarily what he wanted in the lawsuit. Full retention of his IP. You would be correct that the IP lost value to Darden the minute he and Rossi came to odds. You can’t force someone to tell you what they know and you can never prove in court that someone is withholding new information, as claiming someone has developed new information would only be speculation of your part.

        Rossi’s lawyers likely pointed out to him that he would never collect 3x=$267 million nor even the $89 million. Neither Darden, Industrial heat, or Cherokee have that kind of money. Never did. Darden “lied” to Rossi about their financial resources from day one. This is where you will point out that Woodford was willing to put up another $150 million dollars. Yes, but they would want a very large block of Dardens shares in return. This is not free money.

        “angel investors” A Major oxymoron. Nearly everyone who has dealings with these people will tell the same story. They try to own it all and file patents on your work.

        • Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax

          This is crazy. Shares in an LLC don’t work like what is being claimed here. In particular, there are two issues: investment and investor rights, and operational control. Woodford was allowed to buy preferred shares; the original $50 million came as $45 Series A shares, as I recall. That compares with ordinary penny shares. But they have equal voting value. Preferred shares are, in some ways, more like a loan than like regular shares. Woodford invested without significantly diluting the control of the corporation by the original investors, (Darden, Vaugh, Mazzarino, as I recall, were the big ones). From the IHHI reports we have, none of the $50 million went into Darden’s pocket, and, while an intention was expressed in one report to pay back early investors, this explicitly excepted Darden (and I think the other large investors). That was about relatively small investors. All of this had to have, I’m sure, Woodford approval. The last thing Darden would want would be a shareholder lawsuit for misappropriation of funds.

          There is only one inventor complaining like you assert: Rossi. Who are the others? “Angel investor” is not an oxymoron. Such people exist. It’s merely that you think Darden et al are not such. I’ve studied the case documents. There is no sign of any Darden attempt to cheat Rossi in them. They were patient almost beyond belief. They tolerated much.

          It’s true they did not have the cash to pay Rossi more than $1.5 million with the 2012 agreement, but neither would they be sanely expected to. They raised the $10 million a few days before that payment came due, by issuing $11.5 million in IH stock, purchased by a close group (that did pay back the original $1.5 million, it appears that half of it was loaned to Darden by Cherokee (I suspect the other half was Darden’s money); What was done, I’m sure, was to convert the money Darden had paid to shares in IH, and Cherokee was paid back the loan (almost certainly with interest, that’s how this kind of business is done to not run afoul of tax authorities). That share issue was for up to $20 million. I have not seen proof, but I suspect that the rest of the shares were sold, and that is what IH operated on until Woodford. When Woodford invested, IH shares were all traded for IHHI shares, so IHHI became the sole owner of Industrial Heat.

          There are no complaints from any investors, nor any inventors other than Rossi, as far as I have seen. I see a very different world than the one some live in.

          Cherokee has $2.2 billion in assets. It could have raised the $89 million, but …. that would not have been in their business line, it would have been offensive to Cherokee investors to use it for that purpose. Woodford wanted in, apparently. In 2014, Woodford committed $200 million, if needed. Originally the first tranche was to be smaller, but it turned into $50 million. For Woodford, this is almost pocket change. I assume that the terms would have been the same, you assume that Woodford would want control, but he already provided $50 million without control (only with a large share of any future profits, i.e., preferred stock gets paid off first — though I have not studied the specific terms here.) Woodford obviously trusts Darden (they would not have invested as they did if they didn’t.

          If the $89 million were needed, this would be only because Rossi had shown, not only that he could run a megawatt plant, but that they actually had the know-how to make devices, which they could then license to others. (I very much doubt that IH intended to become a manufacturing company). Unless they had those results, they could not possibly raise the $89 million without fraud. Rossi’s behavior from July 2016 on, whether or not he actually had a functioning reactor, made it impossible for IH to pay him.

          Basically, Omega, you are inventing stories with no basis. It’s true, Darden did not have “that kind of money.” However, his specialty is raising that kind of money from investors. He’s good at it. Rossi claimed he was deceived, but …. any lawyer would have told him that his agreement was with Industrial Heat, not Darden and Vaughn personally, and definitely not with Cherokee.

          If Rossi’s lawyers waited until the morning of July 5, 2017, to point out to him that he would not get the $267 million, or even anything significant, *even if he was able to establish that the money was owed,* they were not practicing competently. I actually think Rossi may have been deceived by his lawyers, until Lukacs. It’s impossible to be sure at this point. It’s not impossible that they advised him sanely, but he insisted on going ahead. However, Annesser’s behavior in December, 2016, was tossing gasoline on embers. Threatening Pace, highly experienced, was not bright.

          Chaiken came on when Ruth Silver retired (and then died); then he left his firm to go with Annesser as partners in a new firm. They had a client determined to spend millions of dollars to fight. Lukacs, however, managed to convince Rossi he’d lose, and I think I know how he did that. And then Lukacs got the best deal possible for him. Far better than what I saw coming down the pike in the trial.

          I don’t find it likely that anyone will understand Rossi v. Darden unless they actually read the case documents. I’m working on making them more accessible. Reading the pleadings in the Summary Judgment Motions is very difficult, because of the constant references to evidence, so I’ve been annotating documents like this with links to exact pdf pages.

          If one naively trusts that if a lawyer claims that a document shows something, it must show it, one can easily be misled. It’s necessary to read the evidence quite carefully. In a trial, the jury would be explicitly shown everything (and they were warned that lawyer statements were not evidence).

      • Steve Swatman

        This reads like a personal attack on Mr Rossi, a defensive stance on Mr Darden and his many companies, but more than anything, it reads as an open and vicious attempt at character assassination to me, as a layman with almost no knowledge of legalese I find this to be quite obvious and distasteful.

    • AdrianAshfield

      You underestimate human greed and the lack of good opportunities to make a hefty return.
      Automated production of such a small device will not be that expensive.
      The initial market will be industrial and relatively small until the reactor is proven out in use.

      • Omega Z

        “You underestimate human greed”
        I’ve been partners and owner in multiple business. I know all about greed. It knows no class. It inflicts all people from rich to destitute equally.

        I would guess Rossi’s Qx will cost about 50 cents each or $50 per 1KW. However, the total cost of any product includes a lot of other costs such as facilities/utilities, bots among other things so you can double the cost per QX kilowatt. Beyond that, this is not a consumer end product. Like a car, the engine is the much lesser cost of the whole.

  • Omega Z

    Rossi has silent/anonymous partners under the Leonardo flag. Obviously, we have zero idea as to their financial means or connections to financial means. Some of these predate the IH/Darden deal.

  • US_Citizen71

    “The. nuclear power age is more dangerous by far eg Fukujima, Chernobyl, et al.” – One must remember these weren’t caused by normal everyday things or operations. Chernobyl was a safety test gone horribly wrong and Fukushima was caused by damage due to an earthquake and a tidal wave and by the lack of foresight to have emergency diesel generators onsite to power the plant’s safety equipment. Nuclear plant design has come along way since the design of both of these plants were designed and built. They had fatal flaws and neither would have been built under stricter codes such as the US uses currently. The big problem with nuclear really is the waste and the way we handle it. LENR could help with that so could a thorium reactor. As Rossi says all sources of power will be integrated.

  • georgehants

    Via Vortex with thanks, new comment but don’t know if already on page somewhere.
    ————
    [Vo]:New documentary from ColdFusionNow.org called “Hydroton – a Model of Cold Fusion”
    Esa Ruoho
    Tue, 29 Aug 2017 08:59:44 -0700
    That’s right, Ruby Carat of ColdFusionNow(.)Org fame has created a brand
    new documentary, this time about Dr. Edmund Storms’s Hydroton – a model for
    Cold Fusion.
    Here it is:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4BPtwzsgiw

  • georgehants

    Always worth checking ECW regularly as Cold Fusion etc. news can come at anytime from anywhere, Rossi not the only fish in the sea.

  • artefact

    From MFMP:

    Methamorphosis

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_sFaMkVEa4

    “What happened to LIONs reactor?

    Researcher ‘LOIN’ had a reactor which he sent the MFMP for analysis. It
    was heated in a quartz lined tube furnace supplied by
    lookingforheat.com. We are told that in and instant, two coils of copper
    surrounding the active part of the inner core, turned into a solid
    crust.

    What happened?”

    • Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax

      Methamorphosis: a condition created by too much meth.

      • artefact

        thx. I corrected it 🙂

  • scottlshman

    .

    Rossi’s eCat will suffer, as from all good inventions do, from commercial inertia because investors will take steps to ensure that their income from fossil fuel based activities doesn’t taper off until it suits them.

    The first car Ferdinand Porsche designed in 1898 was a
    petrol/electric series hybrid with hub mounted motors in each wheel. The
    Lohner-Werke, a Viennese luxury coachbuilding firm, built over 300 of
    the vehicles.

    But despite its early success the Porsche-Lohner hybrid car failed to
    catch on mainly due to the cost of 1.8 tonnes of batteries consisting
    of a 44-cell 80-volt lead-acid battery, all housed in a spring-suspended
    battery container.

    The Lohner-Porsche’s design was studied by Boeing and NASA to create
    the Apollo program’s Lunar Roving Vehicle. Many of its design principles
    were mirrored in the Rover’s design.

    .

  • Couple of tidbits I thought were interesting:

    1 – Rossi has posted that an “Independent Measurement Specialist” will be involved in the October demo. If this is not Penon and positive results are reported then the skeptics will have to broaden their conspiracy.

    2 – Alan Smith posted on LENR Forum that he has heard that demos to interested parties have actually been happening already and that the October demo is timed to coincide with an import release of… something.

    • Rene

      Right, so long as the ‘IMS’ is not Rossi’s lawyer’s cousin’s husband or some other dubious arrangement, then of course a positive finding will have some merit. I too hope it works out well, but I am not, nor should anyone else, lower their standard of acceptable evidence.

    • Omega Z

      Possibly the Lugano test group replication.

      • artefact

        I hope so.

  • Omega Z

    My post is not about the R&D, but the regulatory hurdles of bringing a new product to market. At the present rate of new regulations being added, In a few years when someone says does a bear shet in the woods, the answer will be. Not anymore. They have to wait for an environmental impact study to be concluded.

  • sam

    WaltC
    August 28, 2017 at 8:15 PM
    Dear Andrea,

    I’m guessing that after Sigma 5 on a single Quark, you might be putting increased effort into the R&D for making clusters of Quarks. I have a few questions about clusters that I hope you can answer at some level (high or low):

    1) Have you built and begun testing a small cluster of more than 5 or 10 quarks?
    2) On paper, or in your head, do you have a high-level mechanical and electrical design for what a cluster of quarks would look like?
    3) Do you have a physical “mockup” of what a cluster might look like?
    4) Do you think that a cluster intended for “liquid heat transfer” would be the same as a cluster intended for “air heat transfer”?
    5) Off topic: In English, a group of cats is called a clowder (something I just now learned)– not very catchy; is there perhaps an Italian word for a group of cats?

    Thanks,
    WaltC

    Andrea Rossi
    August 28, 2017 at 11:25 PM
    WaltC:
    1- yes
    2- yes
    3- yes
    4- yes, with different heat exchangers
    5- a group of animals is in general defined “branco”: as far as I know, there is not a specific vocabule for a “branco” of cats. In Italian, we’d say ” un branco di gatti” to translate the English vocabule ” clowder “.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

  • Pekka Janhunen

    Existence of luxory products does not reduce the size of the fossil fuel market.

  • sam

    Sam
    August 30, 2017 at 5:00 AM
    Dr Andrea Rossi:
    The measurements of the electric energy consumed during the test of October will be made by volt,eters or by the oscilloscope?

    Translate
    Andrea Rossi
    August 30, 2017 at 7:42 AM
    Sam:
    The independent measurement specialist will decide.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

  • Zavod

    Well, it seems that the future has been pushed, once again, a year into the future.

  • sam

    Kenneth Kocher
    September 1, 2017 at 8:33 PM
    Dear Dr Andrea Rossi:
    1- On your quest to achieve Sigma 5 stability, how far along do you think you are: 25,50,75% or more?
    2- Who decides when Sigma 5 has been achieved?

    Translate
    Andrea Rossi
    September 1, 2017 at 8:45 PM
    Kenneth Kocher:
    1- More
    2- Mathematical calcula
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    Andrews
    September 1, 2017 at 9:52 AM
    Dr Andrea Rossi:
    Has your US patent been allowed in other Countries?
    Cheers
    Andrews

    Andrea Rossi
    September 1, 2017 at 3:14 PM
    Andrews:
    Our US patent has been allowed in the following Countries:
    USA
    Canada
    Mexico
    Europe ( all the 37 Countries of Europe that belong to the European Patent Office)
    Russia
    Japan
    Australia
    South Africa
    Warm Regards
    A.R.

    Anonymous
    September 1, 2017 at 9:51 AM
    Dear Dr Andrea Rossi:
    The E-Cat QX that you will present for the demo will run at its full power, or you will restrain it to stay in the safe side?

    Andrea Rossi
    September 1, 2017 at 3:08 PM
    Anonymous:
    The modules we will present have a much higher power, but we prudentially rate them at the 30% of their real potentiality.
    Warm Regards
    A.R.

    JPR
    September 1, 2017 at 10:24 AM
    Update?

    Translate
    Andrea Rossi
    September 1, 2017 at 3:06 PM
    JPR:
    Very well also today.
    Warm Regards
    A.R.

  • Flo

    I bet it would not be any 2018… that’s what he says for the past 5 years

    • Omega Z

      Most of what people claim Rossi says is actually the bloggers say. For the last 4 years, Rossi has been involved with Industrial heat and has always deferred to that fact.

  • Steve Swatman

    It till sounds to me, like you are making vicious attacks on Mr Rossi while deeply defending Mr Darden, his business practices and his associates.