From Pons and Fleischmann to Rossi (Gerard Hunf)

The following post has been submitted by Gerard Hunf

From P @ F to Rossi (Gerhard Hunf)
In 1989, the chemists Pons and Fleichmann claim that one electrolysis cell – Electrolyte: (heavy water + LiOD); Cathode: Pd wire; Power source: 24 V battery – gives off more heat than it consumes in electrical energy. They did not have an explanation for that.

A closer look at the electrolysis process revealed that after a long period of electrolysis, lithium had been deposited on the cathode. This led to the speculation that a surface skin of Pd / Li / D on the Pd cathode has a special property. Our investigations on the system Pd / Li / H showed that this combination has superconducting properties.

With these findings, the e- / n-capture theory could be developed, which can explain the heat development in the P @ F experiment.

Further possibilities for producing such surface layers on special substrates result from the deposition of lithium from the vapor phase (in the H2 atmosphere) or by thermal decomposition of LiH-compounds which are mixed with the substrate material and heated.

Andrea Rossi takes takes the last path. For the heating of the mixture a resistance heater is used, which is disconnected after the onset of the reaction. If current flows through the surface layer thus produced, the e- / n-reaction occurs in this layer as in P @ F. When reaching 120 oC, the superconductor turns off the power, when falling below again on.

As in FIG. 3.
shown, the current flow through the surface skin is accompanied by a highly concentrated magnetic field, which alternates by the on / off function of the superconductor. The non-contact interaction of this magnetic field with the (disconnected) heating coil results in induction heating with temp.> 1000 oC

Let’s summarize:

In the case of P @ F, e- / n-reaction leads to max 120 oC  in the superconducting layer. In the case of Rossi,the combination of coil and superconductor, max 120 oC via the superconductor, > 1000 oC via the induction heater can be tapped.


  • cashmemorz

    As the inventors get closer to market those controlling the market are moving the retailers, who are to sell the e-catqx and others, further away from being able to comply with that marketable item

    “Since I entered politics, I have chiefly had men’s views confided to me privately. Some
    of the biggest men in the United States, in the field of commerce and
    manufacture, are afraid of somebody, are afraid of something. They know
    that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so
    interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they had better not speak
    above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it. They know
    that America is not a place of which it can be said, as it used to be,
    that a man may choose his own calling and pursue it just as far as his
    abilities enable him to pursue it; because to-day, if he enters certain
    fields, there are organizations which will use means against him that
    will prevent his building up a business which they do not want to have
    built up; organizations that will see to it that the ground is cut from
    under him and the markets shut against him. For if he begins to sell to
    certain retail dealers, to any retail dealers, the monopoly will refuse
    to sell to those dealers, and those dealers, afraid, will not buy the
    new man’s wares.”

    —The New Freedom, Chapter I: The Old Order Changeth

    Those in Italy, who were successful in bringing Rossi to jail will again bring Rossi, Mills, Brillouin, Nanors, and all of the other LENR and similar “revolutionary” energy devices to nought.

    Greed corrupts, and great greed corrupts greatly.

    For instance:
    What are some grim theories regarding the future of humanity

    Off-hand I will just get to the point and give my personal ideas on what I am convinced is at work currently to do us in as human beings. Uncontrolled greed.

    This is a two edged sword. On the one hand it is the driving force within us to want to get things done. This works best when a reward is there for having done something, that reward being either money or a large amount of power. On the other side of this two edged sword is the long term effect on the majority of humans, the ones who are not capable or even want to do too much based on greed. Many people see greed as a negative aspect or character trait. Based on this viewpoint most people do not act from greed to the point of getting very far ahead of others. For me, this is the rational or empathic approach to greed. A little is alright. It is when it is allowed to be expressed to the point of taking so much that it ends up with the current situation of more and more wealth being concentrated in the hands of fewer and fewer individuals, that it creates a negative or bad result. Especially when that ends up with leaving less of that wealth with the rest of the people. Then, instead of allowing more people the satisfaction of having attained a good way of life, there are fewer and fewer who can claim that they are getting ahead. The end result is demoralization of the next in line to get wealthy and in fact has a negative effect on the next tier of people, the middle class. This has an over all effect of driving everyone else down while the few become satisfied. In actual fact, the ones with the majority of the wealthy are not satisfied, since they continue to amass wealth long after all of their needs are satisfied. This is typified when, long after their own needs are satisfied, then the needs of their first, second and even third generation progeny have been fulfilled. When one requires that ones wealth must fulfill all of the needs and wants of the third and fourth generation down the road, then it can only be termed excessive greed. And quite safely so. This is because by the first generation away from oneself, even those individuals can be of little or no use to themselves or to others when spoiled too much. There are some wealthy individuals, who claim that they will not leave anything to their children, to make sure that their children become reasonably responsible individuals on their own merits. But the majority give in to their parental instincts and do allow their wealth to spoil their children as well as their grand-children and even their great grand-children. So we end up with a situation where it is not only the people who are not related to the originally wealthy persons, but many of their own children, who end up paying for uncontrolled greed.

    The key to preventing uncontrolled greed is to control it. But many, if not most, of the wealthy, do not want someone else controlling their actions even when they themselves cannot or will not control their actions.

    How this will end up hurting humanity in general is at least two-fold. The first and most obvious is to force the rest of us to keep working for less and less. Or slavery. Or not working at all. The result being continually increasing crime. The second is psychological in the form of apathy. Very deep seated apathy. This is driven by the knowledge that one has no power to do anything about it. So one has nothing to lose of using illegal and violent means become the means one depends on, to get a little bit of the economic pie.

    And then we have the full end result or scenario of what life is like, as in the story and movie,“Soylent Green”®.

    Beyond that point, extreme corruption can become not only widespread, but considered the norm by those in power. When robots can do the bidding of the powerful, without the same being available to the rest, then humanity will have lost its human face. We may be around as a species, but will have devolved into little better than wild and uncontrolled and even uncontrollable animals. Much as in the Morlocks and Eloi peoples depicted in the story and movie “The Time Machine”®. Institutionalized Cannibalism. At that point we will again, still be around, but in a different form, the likes of which begins to boggle the mind, and in a less then savory manner.

    • LilyLover

      There are many thousands of people that are brave and willful the likes of whom the history hasn’t seen before. We will eradicate the possibility of Soylent Green. We will exterminate the Morlocks, if need be. We will create the Logan’s Run without the Run.

      No bank can buy the Scaramangas to kill us off. But we can eliminate the non-contributing parasites.
      The eventual fight is between the producers and the looters.
      The days are numbered for the looters.
      Be good.

    • roseland67

      Elon Musk just called and says you’re theory needs work

      • cashmemorz

        I was specifically talking about new kinds of stuff. Musk’s stuff is one small iteration up from gas cars. Batteries need even more oil to produce then then gasoline or diesel. So the oil barons aren’t threatened by those kinds of changes. That is the difference. Of course all those new things that were invented before musk, that never got off the ground should have, by your reasoning.

  • Gerard McEk

    Gerard, I believe it is for most readers unclear what you to prove or explain with this article. I suggest to put that in an introduction of this article. The only thing I got of this is that you think that maybe superconducting plays a role in LENR.

    • hunfgerh

      “The only thing I got of this is that you think that maybe superconducting plays a role in LENR.”
      Yes, correct.

  • sam


    December 5, 2017 at 1:09 AM
    Can we have an update of your present activity and where is it on course?
    Andrea Rossi
    December 5, 2017 at 7:43 AM

    In these days we are in the USA making work related to the control
    system, to miniaturize it and also I am making measurements related to
    the recovery of all the energy consumed by the cooling system.
    Both in the USA and in Sweden we are working on the industrialization issue.

    Warm Regards,

    December 5, 2017 at 2:46 AM
    Dr Andrea Rossi,

    The more I watch the video of the Stockolm demo, the more I consider the
    Ecat QX a masterpiece. By the way, the energy consumed by the control
    system to cool the component and the heat dissipation of the components
    is almost totally recoverable by means of a heat exchanger.
    Andrea Rossi
    December 5, 2017 at 7:38 AM

    Yes, the energy consumed by the control system is entirely recovered
    with a heat exchanger. We are measuring the thermal energy recovered by
    means of an air/air heat exchanger and we are recovering almost totally
    the energy consumed by the circuitry and the fans of the control system.
    Obviously the same energy can be recovered by an air/water heat
    exchanger, preheating the water at the inlet of the E-Cat.

    Warm Regards,

  • John Littlemist

    Frank, this article is featured twice on ECW front page.

    • Frank Acland

      Thanks John, my mistake!

  • sam

    Andrea Rossi
    December 5, 2017 at 12:17 PM

    Toussaints Francois:

    No, it is irrelevant to the COP of the E-Cat QX. The COP of the E-Cat QX
    is given by the ratio between the energy that enters the E-Cat QX and
    the energy that the same E-Cat QX generates.
    Warm Regards,
    Frank Acland
    December 5, 2017 at 11:57 AM

    Dear Andrea,

    With the very high COP of the E-Cat QX reactors, what is the reason
    you are working so hard on recovering heat from the control system,
    which I would assume would be somewhat insignificant compared to the
    heat produced by many E-Cats powered by the controller?
    Best wishes,

    Frank Acland
    Andrea Rossi
    December 5, 2017 at 12:16 PM
    Frank Acland:

    Because I hate to waste the warm air that exits from the control box. It
    is not a fundamental issue, but still there is energy to recover at COP
    1, easy to be recovered, whatever the power of the plant and whatever
    the utilization, just preheating the fluid before it enters the

    Warm Regards,


    Toussaint françois

    December 5, 2017 at 11:56 AM

    Dear Andrea Rossi,

    One question please,when you will optimise the recovery of the energy
    consumed by the cooling system, do you think it will increase the COP
    of your E-CAT QX ?

    Warm Regards

    Toussaint françois

    • Steve D

      What is provided by the wall socket ie volts, frequency, waveform, etc is the measure by which all (consuming) appliances are efficiency rated. The e-cat too has to compete in the same field even if it is a generator rather than a consumer, but by disregarding the controller power consumption Rossi is essentially treating the wall socket power to his device as already e-cat friendly (and so then everyone else should be able to utilise this power characteristic for their own appliances too.) Next we’ll have all manufacturers disregarding their device power supply consumption and conversion efficiencies in the energy ratings. He wants a special privilege.
      And so he only ran the Ecat at 30 % output. This doesn’t say much for his Simga 5 confidence level.

  • Alan DeAngelis

    There were some lithium free variations of F&P’s experiment, For example, John Dash used D2SO4 as the electrolyte instead of LiOD.

    • hunfgerh

      “John Dash used D2SO4 as the electrolyte instead of LiOD.”

      Not correct. He used H2SO4.

      Page 49:

      See also the other ingredients and conditions.

      By the way, there are a lot of other electrolysis experiments that attempt to
      demonstrate “cold fusion reactions” by electrolysis.

  • sam

    Eric Ashworth
    December 5, 2017 at 6:03 PM
    Dear Andrea, With regards the mechanisms that activate the LENR process, do you believe that it can eventually be fully explained by the current understanding of atomic physics or will a better understanding be a necessary requirement. That is to say an aspect not yet recognized by mainstream academia. I believe that you know more than you are giving away, just curious.

    Best Regards, Eric Ashworth

    Andrea Rossi
    December 5, 2017 at 6:32 PM
    Eric Ashworth:
    Good question.
    Please go to the lecture of Carl-Oscar Gullstrom ( video available also on and paper published on the Journal of Nuclear Physics) and there is a crucial point of our theoretical work, where we write that when the temperature in a field raises the mass of a particle, waves are formed that correspond to virtual particles with the mass corresponding to that temperature. Such waves, at our temperatures, can have a mass of 1-2 eV and must be waves and antiwaves. When I suggested to Carl-Oscar this model, we decided to put it under the proof of mathematical calculations in the context of the mechanism of the spin polarizability; it could result to be wrong: it is borderline, but still inside the Standard Model if we consider that we are talking of virtual particles, that are not actual elementary particles, but resonances of waves with a lifespan in the order of 10^-18 to 10^-23 s. Their low mass could justify the absence of strong radiations, while the waves-antiwaves annihilation could explain the effect. It will be very difficult to proof, but we are studying on this. It is something that could reconcile the behavior of the E-Cat QX and I believe I am right, but I know that probably I am wrong. We’ll see.
    Warm Regards,

    • LION

      Hi Sam,
      ” I believe I am right, but I know that probably I am wrong. We’ll see.”

      This Quintessentially expresses the true quality and state of mind of the dedicated experimenter, and the energy that drives them forward, a QUALITY Andrea has in bucket loads.
      I wish him every success.

    • Axil Axil

      Rossi is looking for a particle that is created out of the vacuum as a condensate of EMF energy.

      There are such particles called instantons that fit that bill.

      I have just run across an interesting tidbit when looking at the instanton write up in Wiki. This particle is close to what Rossi is after but requires him to change this thinking of the type of magnetism that produces particle creation.

      This added mass comes from the creation of instantons as magnetic vortex packets that add mass to the quark.

      “In 3-dimensional gauge theories with Higgs fields, ‘t Hooft–Polyakov monopoles play the role of instantons. In his 1977 paper Quark Confinement and Topology of Gauge Groups, Alexander Polyakov demonstrated that instanton effects in 3-dimensional QED coupled to a scalar field lead to a mass for the photon.”

      I then looked up the paper by N. Seiberg, E. Witten

      Monopole Condensation, And Confinement In N=2 Supersymmetric Yang-Mills Theory

      What this says is that monopole magnetism can condense in the vacuum and form particles that have mass. When mass is added to the hadron, manly to quarks, they decay into mesons.

  • sam

    December 6, 2017 at 5:54 AM
    Dr Andrea Rossi
    How much is the energy consumed by the E-Cat QX and for what is used the energy consumed by the control system that is not consumed by the E-Cat QX itself?

    Andrea Rossi
    December 6, 2017 at 9:07 AM
    Let’s take the numbers obtained during the Stockolm test.
    To produce 20 Wh/h the E-Cat QX consumed 0.16 x 3/7 = 0.07 Wh/h, operating at about the 30% of its continuous operation rating. This is the amount of energy that the control board supplied to the E-Cat QX. Actually, considering the integrals of the waves, the consume is considerably less, but this makes things complicated, so just forget the integrals.
    The control box produces also heat, the amount of which varies depending on many factors and this heat can be fully recovered for other uses, with a COP close to 1 ( it will be 1 minus the energy consumed by the E-Cat, circa). The by product obtained will be heated fluid, for example air or water, that can be used for other purposes not necessarily connected to the E-Cat. For example ( just one example among an endless series) : the E-Cat, with its COP, supplies energy to make electricity or steam, while the control box supplies heat to help a heating system or an air conditioned circuit.
    The energy by-produced by means of the control box, anyway, is destined to fade in time, because the engineering we are developing for the industrialization will reduce dramatically the heat dissipation of the components.
    Warm Regards,

    • Andreas Moraitis

      If I were Rossi, I would be keen to measure the thermal output of the control box. If it equals the electric input – everything OK. 20 W (QX output) lower – bad. Output higher than input: backflow from the QX, very interesting (but probably more difficult control).

  • sam

    Comment from LENR Forum.

    Verified User
    18 hours ago
    The QX reactor is a system that is based on the design of the high-intensity discharge lamps (HID lamps). This lamp system is a type of electrical gas-discharge lamp which produces light by means of an electric arc/rf signal excited between metallic electrodes housed inside a translucent or transparent arc tube.

    Like other lamps of the type which includes the fluorescent light, a ballast is required to keep the plasma from distruction. One of the results of the ballast approach is that a portion of the energy used to drive the discharge lamp is dissipated in the ballast. There are two types of ballasts used in these systems, a solid state ballast and a inductive ballast.

    The solid state ballast will produce more heat than the inductive ballast since the inductive ballast dissipation is caused only by the relatively small resistance in the windings of the inductor.

    A high efficiency solid state ballast runs at about 90% efficiency whereas the inductive ballast runs at 95% efficiency.

    This fact about plasma discharge lamps indicates that Rossi will always generate heat in his controller. This is just the way that these systems work.

    It seems to me in closing, Rossi took the design if the HID lamp and coated the outside of the nickel electrodes with his fuel. The fuel will release metallic hydrogen into the plasma envelope. This LENR activator will add LENR energy generation to the plasma mechanism when excited by the RF signal.

    Verified User
    17 hours ago
    It seems that a light that is driven by ionization of various elements would have a constant color output based on the electron excitation profile of each element. For example sodium is yellow and iodine is red.

    But the QX has an adjustable color output profile based on the adjustments made in the input RF excitations. This indicates that the ionic excitation mechanism is not where most of the light comes from in the QX.

    Polaritons produce variable color output when excited


  • sam

    December 10, 2017 at 5:33 AM
    Hi Andrea,

    Thanks very much for clearly clearing up the question about the Stefan Boltzmann completely makes sense now.

    To me that it is cm rather than mm fully reconciles the issue. Calorimetry always clearly and definitely showed 20W output. So the original discrepancy when we were thinking in mm was clearly missing something.

    The point about the size was hinted at very early in the presentation and returned to several times during it

    When talking about fractions of a cm and being amazed by how small that is it’s easy in conversation for one person to get confused between mm and fractions of a cm and fractions of a mm.

    I have made the same mistake myself.

    I have a suspicion that early in the conversation possibly even during the presentation that Andrea Rossi mentioned fractions of a cm then this got reinterpreted by someone in mm and then by someone else in fractions of a mm and this then got propagated. Andrea was acknowledging it was really small in his later response with out realizing people had changed cm for mm.

    I have a suspicion that early in the conversation possibly even during the presentation that Andrea Rossi mentioned fractions of a cm then this got reinterpreted by someone in mm and then by someone else in fractions of a mm and this then got propagated. Andrea was acknowledging it was really small in his later response with out realizing people had changed cm for mm.

    Anyway it’s fully explained now and makes total sense

    Best Regards

    Andrea Rossi
    December 10, 2017 at 8:04 AM
    Thank you for your kind attention.
    Warm Regards,

    December 10, 2017 at 7:03 AM
    Dr Andrea Rossi:
    Thank you for your precise explication about the Wien and Boltzmann equations. In the blogs guys who have no education in a matter can sell themselves as experts to persons that do not know the matter. The diffusion of false information is facilitated by this fact.

    Andrea Rossi
    December 10, 2017 at 8:02 AM
    You are right.
    Warm Regards,

    December 10, 2017 at 6:15 AM
    Would you please clarify what size the QX actually is. Is it 0,08mm in diameter like you said several times, “like a hair”, or is it 0,08cm as in your calculation in your answer to Frank Acland? And BTW, you convert Kelvin to Celsius by subtracting , not adding 273.

    Andrea Rossi
    December 10, 2017 at 7:50 AM
    I said what I wrote. Please read well also what I wrote for what concerns the addition of 273 to the K to obtain C degrees. You are not supposed to know Physics, but at least you are supposed to be able to read!
    Warm Regards,

    Italo R.
    December 10, 2017 at 2:08 AM
    Dear Dr. Rossi, you have written that “the surface in Celsius degrees = (2636+273)” but I think that the correct value must be (2636 – 273).
    Inserting this value in your calculations, the final value, if I am not wrong, become 26.53 W that is about the same value you have found with the calorimetric computations.

    Kind Regards,
    Italo R.

    Andrea Rossi
    December 9, 2017 at 11:32 PM
    Dr Joseph Fine:
    Thank you for the information and for the links.
    Same best Wishes for a Merry Christmas and a Great 2018 to you and to all our Readers!

    Andrea Rossi
    December 9, 2017 at 11:29 PM
    Frank Acland ( second answer):
    I checked your link and read that a guy has written that, based on the surface of the reactor, he has “calculated” that by the equation of Boltzmann the energy emitted by a reactor is 0.4 W.
    I think your Readers merit a serious application of the rules of Physics and of Mathematics, to avoid to assume wrong scientific information.
    First of all, it is opportune to remember that the measurements at the IVA of Stockholm have been made by means of calorimetry, not by means of spectrometry and following Wien and Boltzmann equations.
    Nevertheless, it is interesting to compare the results obtained by calorimetry ( based on the delta T and the flow rate of water) vs the theoretical energy produced by the reactor using spectrometry and the equations of Wien and Boltzmann.
    Here are the numbers if we respect the rules of mathematic:
    The first step is to calculate the temperature of the plasma. Since do not exist thermocouples able to resist to temperatures above the melting point of platinum and rhodium, to measure the temperature of a plasma is necessary to measure the wavelength of the radiation from the plasma in microns; the measurements I made give a wavelength between 1 and 1.1 microns.
    Now we can use the equation of Wien
    T = 2900/lambda
    T= temperature in K
    2900 = Wien constant
    lambda = wavelength in microns
    By substitution we have
    T= 2900/1.1 ( to be conservative we take the longest lambda )
    Therefore T= 2636 K
    Now that we have found the T, we can proceed to calculate the power using the equation of Boltzmann, whose definition is:
    W = Sigma x Epsilon x T^4 x A(in m^2)
    Sigma = 5.67 x 10^-8 BUT ATTENTION: we will use 10^-12, because the Area will be calculated in cm^2, not in m^2 and 1 cm^2=10^-4 m^2
    Epsilon= emissivity: being plasma a black body the emissivity is = 1
    T^4= fourth power of the temperature of the surface in Celsius degrees = (2636+273)^4 = 7.16 x 10^13
    A= area of the surface of the plasma= 2rPiL= cm 0.08 x 3.14 x cm 0.6 = cm^2 0.15
    Now, we have all the data necessary to resolve the equation of Boltzmann per W:
    W = 5.67 x 10^-12 x 1 x 7.16 x 10^13 x 0.15
    Make the series of multiplications, apply the rules of the exponentials and find the result:
    W = 60.89
    This result is the theoretical thermal power of our plasma. As we have seen from the demo of Stockolm, the calorimetry has given a result that is about the 30% of the total power, because I was afraid of errors and kept the E-Cat QX at low profile.
    Besides, the spectrometry is an immediate measurement that gives the theoretical power, while the calorimetry is made on the actual production of heat through a heat exchanger whose efficiency obviously is not 100%. It is interesting, though, to note that the order of magnitude is reconciled.
    Warm Regards,

    Frank Acland
    December 9, 2017 at 7:38 PM
    Dear Andrea,

    Thanks for the time you took to speak with the Energy 2.0 Society today. There are some more questions that got posted on this page on E-Cat World here:

    This question was sent to me, but I did not see this morning, but I thought I would post it here for your consideration:

    “If Rossi is hit by a bus is there currently some other group of people or a person that can bring the information to light or will it vanish with Rossi?”

    Thanks again!

    Frank Acland

    Andrea Rossi
    December 9, 2017 at 10:05 PM
    Frank Acland:
    Thanks to you and the team of Energy 2.0 Society for hosting me and thank you for the link.
    Answer: if I die the IP is in solid hands.
    Warm Regards,

  • hunfgerh

    Yes in all cases where the fusion (at low voltage) in the skin layer of solid electrical
    conductors takes place.
    Skin layers can: Pd / Li / H or Ni / Li / H or Ti / Li / H or……. .
    H can also be replaced by D. Li for example by Ca.

    • Andreas Moraitis

      It is interesting that you mention Ca as an alternative to Li. What is the function of these metals in your model? Being electron donors (if so, Li might be more effective), or something else?

      • hunfgerh

        For example, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries use Ca; see EP 1202290 B1.

        Many substances will be a superconductor only after doping with metals, or by
        doping their conductivity is further increased. I do not have an explanation
        for these empirical facts.

  • sam

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